/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Truth.

a "deadline" might motivate me to actually read muramasa

or not and then I'll jjst leave it on hold for ever after the tl releases

>>35894130
my jap sucks so i'm gonna read it in en lol
i mean it's p retarded to either rush till deadline or read it in jp when you suck at jp lol

>>35894130
24 days is a lot of time to complete it lol
Just read 3 or 4 hours per day

Does anyone know how to do make HCGconv (https://www.angelfire.com/nm/fbkcfy/)) work on Windows 10?

>>35894267
>3 or 4 hours per day
That's too much reading for a non-weekend day.

>>35894465
Tfw neet

How many hours do you read VNs per day?

>>35894631
0-24
It really depends.
Probably average of 3, median of 8.

>>35894302
Have you tried the other common conversion tools already?

>>35894631
I mostly read on Fri/Sat/Sun because I have to wageslave for 7 hours other days.

Haha yuzusoft went all-ages

vtubers and all ages the future of eroge bros

eroge without the ero is just ge(i)

>>35894670
No, I need to use this one because it's the one that's compatible with the .crz format (which was used by Crowd).

At least they're making the distinction clear that it's a separate brand for their all-ages crap. Still don't get the appeal of moege without the sex marathon at the end.

>>35894989
That's just for optics. They'll abandon their main brand.

Real talk.

For each heroine in a game, there should also be sex scenes with characters like:
>the heroine's mother
>the heroine's younger sister
>the heroine's female friends
etc.

In various combinations.

All-ages Yuzu? Quite a jump from originally making games about fucking 9 years olds.

Man, there's one H-scene for each girl at the end of the Tomefure S trial, but I kinda want to wait for the full VN before I read any of them. I'm conflicted.

>>35895112
Maybe for nukige and games designed intentionally with harems or families. I don't think it should be ubiquitous for, say, true-love romance VNs, especially kinetic novels. In my opinion, that would defeat the purpose of such games, while boosting nukige/harem/etc titles.

https://twitter.com/yuzusoft_sour

>Yuzu new game isnt R18

>>35895147
Wait.

>>35895778
Yeah, I think I agree. It's only gonna be two more months... right...?

>>35895876
I seriously doubt they would delay any longer when the situation is stable.

>>35895069
Nope

Does anyone know if there's some kind of recommended route order for Paradise Lost? I was going to start that soon and I see that vndb has it tagged as "multiple route mystery" so maybe there's a wrong way to play it.

>>35895598
Only makes sense. Next they realize their games are worthless without the porn and come back with half of the budget.

>>35894130
You don't want to read Muramasa, you want to feel superior to eops. You are pathetic.

>>35897524
Shush back to your tranny Discord.

>>35897493
I found online someone that recommended this order:
リルノーマルソフィアノーマルアストノーマルソフィアグッドリルグッドアストグッド
Although what I did is both endings (first good then normal) for each heroine before moving onto the next one.
I dont think it really matters much to be honest. Just make sure to leave アストグッド end for last.

>>35898116
That's definitely a strange recommendation. I don't think I've ever seen someone not recommend getting all the endings for a heroine consecutively before.
>Just make sure to leave アストグッド end for last.
Yeah that's the main thing I want want to be sure of. Thanks, that sounds good.

>>35893295
>What are you playing? What are you looking forward to?
Muramasa desu.

So speaking of Paradise Lost, does anyone happen to have the other game called that (made by some developer called "in the air")?
https://vndb.org/v10672

Apparently it was freeware or something but the circle is long dead of course. I don't know; it looks moderately interesting for some reason.

Just found out Trannystel protected his tweets.

Any juicy drama I missed?

>>35899095
He and Moogy broke up.

>>35897493
I dropped paradise lost when they had a chapter called "criminal fireworks" and the chapter ends with a criminal gore-exploding in the air. I just couldn't take it.

>>35899533
Damn that sounds great. I can't wait to read it.

>>35894631
It just depends. Sometimes I'm really into something so I'll put like 10 hours in a day into it easily. Other times not such much and it's more like 3-4.

What are the best semi-vanilla nukige producers?

>>35899533
that's sounds almost as cool as forced engrish in action VN's

>>35901933
It really doesn't get better than ωstar.

>>35901933
What do you consider semi-vanilla? For some weird fetishes but still with a sole self insert MC fucking the girls I really like May-Be
Soft, I don't think anyone else still alive is making similar stuff on the same quality though.

>>35898741
This. English translation of course.

I miss Chuable and Cotton Soft, they liked making piss stuff

>>35901933
Atelier Kaguya Bare&Bunny/Honky Tonk Pumpking.
Anim games not from their NTR team.

>>35903624
Wait Anim makes stuff that isn't NTR???

>>35903713
They do, but they're all mom/son incest

Asagao still not uploaded. I am this close to paying 8k for it

>>35904894
Bro, it's up.

>>35904928
Guess I should've F5'd before making an ass out of myself.

>>35894302
Just use a vitual machine, it is painless. You should have a few to play eroge anyway.

>>35904894
What is it even about? I read the ""story"" on the official site, and it was vague as hell.

>>35905179
I want to know this too. What are you even supposed to expect?

>>35894631
Recently, generally at the evening before sleep, so 2-3 hours. Or whatever of that remains with 4chan and co.

Actually soon done with pic related. Only the sister left, and I probably only skim through it, as I'm not a fan of these shitty imouto routes. It's nbr as well, which is making it obvious that it's ultimately one of those routes where the entire thing is completely whatever.

>>35894631
Depends on the VN and how much time I have, and how tired I am. I usually read VNs in bed as the last thing I do, so I sometimes wind up drifting off. Normally an hour or two a day, though.

the new VenusBlood again won't have many chracters by Genta, but I'll take what I can.

>>35907630
Genta art looks like trash

https://twitter.com/piromizu/status/1421372397165289478

>>35907969
Great, Amakano 2 is one of the better moege of recent times.

New Koihime announcements.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKvqw2GIv1I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLY4KC82L_Q
New Shin Koihime Eiyuutan and Sengoku Koihime sequel. I'm excited.

Bros, which of these "youth drama" games by More etc. and now Mellow are worth playing?

>>35903624
>>35903713
Crowd and Anim are the same company right?

>>35898741
Baste.

Anyone with Rapid gator premium can try this?

https
rapidgator
net/file/25bd3f8ee229b2f1e35bec245be44374/VJ013429.zip.html

It's supposed to be ロストカラーズ／再装版 and the filesize matches, but the origin is unclear. So just please check if it's real and if it is, mirror it somewhere.

>>35911749
My premium (on a debrid site, because fuck RapidGator prices) expired four days ago. Rotten timing.

I recently listened to the Sakura no Uta OP and it made me feel really emotional. Is the game worth picking up?

>>35912478
no

>>35908698
Never liked Koihime, for me it's Sangoku Hime

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rasiOrCLOu8

>>35912478
Yeah

Will I get a bad ending if I fail to properly examine something?

Has anyone read Kimagure? Will I get a bad ending if I fail to properly examine something?

>>35905723
It's set in a mental asylum.

Sayori has protected tweets. Did they try to cancel nekopara or something?

Man how is it even possible for desktop composition (aero) to fuck up a 2D game? Do I blame microsoft or the game developer here?

>>35913451
Yes it has a couple of bad ending fi you fuck up.

This is cool.

>>35914449
Microsoft. Compositing forces everything to be rendered as a 3D quad. That is incompatible with DirectDraw (not to be confused with Direct2D), so they translate the API calls to DirectX which is plenty fucky.
From my limited experience with later Windows versions, I can anecdotally say that Windows 8.1 ran DirectDraw games better than Windows 7, although 7 was the last system that actually let you disable compositing.

>>35914850
Yeah it actually appears like buffers from the game somehow get "stuck" in the compositor and don't get rendered. A really stupid workaround is to force the compositor to work again (like by alt+tabbing or something else that triggers it) and then it appears. Hilarious, I've never seen that before. At least the shitty xorg compositors just tear but not secretly hold buffers forever.

>>35914902
You can also just play them in fullscreen, it should bypass the compositing.
>this captcha

>>35914915
Well I have that issue where fullscreen doesn't actually take up the fullscreen. It's just the actual resolution of the game and everything else is back. Never knew if there was a workaround for that so I just turned off Aero and maximized the window.

>>35914959
>back
black*

>>35914831
I had no clue what to expect, but yeah I'm down with all the edginess so far.

Anyone got trial of sakuuta from 2008?
This one https://vndb.org/r1160
Found on torrent, but it's stuck at 98%, and it's not on AB either.

>2021
>I am forgotten

Post VNs you wanted to read but never will because they got cancelled or are stuck in limbo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTRfGK8X7qM

>>35917506
Extra2, Sakutoki

>>35917582
>Sakutoki
It's coming out this year, bro. Trust the plan.

>>35917193
https://mega.nz/file/SvoU3CST#gEi2KlquYFUhrGnA51dicki9bmncPCohmIcza4a1fE8

>>35918361
Thanks, buddy.

>>35917630
Sauce?

>>35918470
The trial is out.

I was like "damn this is one smart kid", but it turned out she was just reading some crappy manga version.

>>35918496
>balloon tits
Ruined.

>>35918620
More like improved.

>>35918496
let me know if it's any good

>>35918665
I liked the trial. It looks to have a faster start than the first VN, since they introduce a chat room mechanic to assemble the harem.

>>35918652
man, I like big tits but I hate chichibukuro like that. It's way hotter when the clothes hang over the tits realistically imo

>>35918693
I like big tits too but not bakunyuu. That shit is disgusting both in real life and fiction. Also, chichitent is the best.

>>35918693
No one cares about this moebuta cowtitsfag pandering, retard.
You're literally eroge industry betrayer if you care about this retarded shit-crap.

>>35918890
Yeah, why don't you blog post about reading Muramasa again? Faggot.

>>35919030
I'm waiting for english translation of muramasa, faggot.
My muramasa reading experience is going to be better than any of yours experiences in this thread.
You totally don't think average jop is going to be enjoy muramasa as much as average eop, aren't you?
Most of you aren't good enough to begin with, lmfao.
Just don't get mald, cowtitsfag with trash tier taste lol.

missing words = spooky

>>35919931
You can't even write a coherent English sentence, go troll somewhere else.

>>35918693
Tent > Bag >>> Curtain
Curtain just makes the girl look fat.

>>35918693
I'd expect artists to at least know a little about clothing design. In real life women's chest clothing is an in between of tent and bag, leaning heavily towards bag.
The top is wider to accommodate the breasts and the bottom is increasingly narrower towards the waist. Tent and curtain would only happen if a woman used man's clothing.

>>35915510
Apparently the author doesn't like this VN anymore so a ton of shit is retconned in later entries. Good thing the gacha never launched

What are some good VNs for beginners?

>>35914831
>>35915510
Are the production values good?

>>35920499
Tsukihime/Fate
Steins;Gate
Muv-Luv

>>35920506
not him but it was pretty average. The most effort put in is that for some reason every chapter ends/starts with a little movie that has narration over it, as if it was an anime or something. Made me think this was sold as episodic content at first but I don't think that was ever the case

>>35920499
Dies Irae
Soukou Akki Muramasa
Subarashiki Hibi

>>35920217
My english is already better than your japanese is ever gonna be.
Go cope somewhere else.

>>35919030

>>35918693
I agree. People will scream about 2D not having to be realistic, but at a certain point it starts to feel like you're looking at poorly drawn symbols instead of fleshy 3D shapes. Chichibukuro almost always looks awful because it highlights how poorly the breasts are drawn, too.

>>35920966
What is this? This would be my preferred textbox for the English version

Are there any good VNs with a setting like "MC and a bunch of strangers get thrown on an island and told to do a sort of battleroyale with their lives on the line" setting? Of course it doesn't have to be an actual island or battleroyale, just something similar to that.
It feels like the visual novel format would be perfect for this what with multiple choices and playthroughs, helping or not helping certain heroines leading to different results etc. but just by passively playing only stuff people talk about on 4chan I've never come across anything like that, except maybe Euphoria but there's no real struggle there, just "choose your victim" choices.

>>35924758
I would have loved something similar, but battleroyale part should start after a big common route so we can to actually start liking the cast before killing begins.

>>35924758
F/SN?

>>35925121
When you put it like that, I guess it does fit the criteria. But that's baby's first VN and I've already played it.
Also it didn't really give me a battleroyale feeling. Maybe because I didn't get to choose fight or flight with most encounters and I had no idea who the "participants" were before meeting them. Shirou is just pushed around by the plot and characters around him, kinda like going through 3 different normal stories set in a battleroyalish setting. Didn't feel that much different from Tsukihime in that regard.

Getting completely destroyed by the 2nd dungeon in amayui, because they had the brilliant idea to make all the enemies in every dungeon level up along with you even on the first playthrough (this is an option you can activate on consecutive playthroughs, it makes no sense this is automatically turned on!) and I leveled up a bit too much by accident. This is more fucking than Oblivion scaling, and I can't find any information about this being a bug or a feature.

>>35920506
I mean yeah it's pretty average production-wise like the other anon said. It was originally 2004 so don't really expect much there but I like the OST so far.

>>35920457
What's with authors and hating their old work? I've only read Dies Irae from Masada so I guess this is connected via the God Throne shit or whatever it's called (too lazy to look it up). Well I dunno it's pretty charming so far. I haven't played too many games that feel like this. Ryle is a pretty good MC (although I understand there's supposed to be another protagonist at one point). He's a straight up asshole and talks like a fucking punk. I even started using my inner "yakuza voice" (you guys all have one right?) while reading his dialogue. It's fun.

Bros, what happened to こ～ちゃ
His art and designs are so shitty now...

>>35925422
>What's with authors and hating their old work?
It's because they see flaws of their older works better than anyone else.

>>35924758
Did you tried Secret Game series? Also there is this https://vndb.org/v7867 but it is more werewolf game rather than a proper battleroyale.

>>35924758
https://vndb.org/g664

Unironically waiting for Muramasa translation so I can properly discuss it with normal human beings.

>>35925624
But that looks better than Happiness 2 designs

I've never read anything Propeller, but holy shit does their revival look like it has absolutely nothing to do with them anymore. Why is that name even used? Weird shit.

>>35927747
In the world of Japanese business even defunct eroge companies with no active employees have at least some value, doubly so for IP recognition.
Staff aside at least it looks like a chuunige with big titties and those are always fun.

Well, which one is it for you?

>>35928381
small

>>35928381

>>35928381
むしろ全部

>>35925422
> It was originally 2004 so don't really expect much there
Ayakashi is from 2005 and has great production values. It seems like the art is a weakness, but if the BGM and voiced characters are good I guess that's good enough.

>>35928428
Any eroge for this feel?

>>35928450
Yeah I guess that's true. I've played a handful of old titles with surprisingly good production values before so I shouldn't be prejudiced. The voice acting is pretty good though. A couple of them even got relatively large roles later on too.

>>35928552
We may never know.

How do I change/better myself to write a 村正-tier masterpiece in the next 5-7 years?

what do

>>35926402

>>35929229
>0-10
I don't buy it

>>35929098
Give up on Japanese.

>>35928670
>村正
Stop dodging my filter dumbass.

>>35924389
We should make a patch to return the True Vertical Textbox when the TL comes out. It'll at least give the EOP something more Japanese-like to read.

>>35929283
You'd be surprised

>>35930438
How would you know? Are you of the above mentioned age group?

>>35930496
some people remember their childhood, anon.

>no fetus age range
This chart is bogus.

>>35930524
What did you read as a child?

>>35930556
i read guts when i was 11.

Do you anons ever think about how a VN route could have progressed if a side character was the protagonist instead, or if you could just "turn off" the main protagonist and switch to another at some point in a route? Are there any games you feel would be improved by this, or that did something like this worth noting? I was reading a few chapters of an isekai manga recently (I now know based on a LN) called "Magical Explorer", and it made me think about this concept.

The series' premise is simple: guy is a big fan of an eroge game, wakes up one day to find he's transported to the world, but is the side character instead of the protagonist. Side character is originally the stereotypical, goofy pervert best friend of the protagonist. I haven't read the LN, but it begs a question: how might character shifts, and the player's meta knowledge held beyond these shifts, influence a VN where controlled perspectives are changed (either permanently or back and forth)? Would the narrative likely be improved or impaired through this process? What do you all think?

>>35930665
>or if you could just "turn off" the main protagonist and switch to another at some point in a route?
Ayakashi kinda does this, there are three sub-scenarios where you see a part story from another character POV and discover more things about the plot. MC is still there doing this own thing and sometimes the scenes intersect but most of the content is new.

>>35930665
Not sure why you had to post that picture and then ask a decent question (it's a complicated feeling), but anyways the Rasen Kairou series is kind of like what you're talking about. There's a main protagonist but you can view the perspective from a few other characters. Overall, I would say this is hard to pull off well because it tends to get really repetitive and it's hard to make some side characters actually interesting (that's why they're side characters). However, I thought Rasen Kairou 2 pulled this off extremely well overall. That was definitely the best entry in the series and it wasn't even close.

>>35930496
Zoomers grew up with unlimited and unfiltered internet access. It's much easier to find porn today than 20 years ago and parents aren't getting any smarter.
Dumb kids even openly admit they're underage in the cesspools of subbed hentai streaming sites like it's a race for the gold medal of youngest person to jack off to goblin rape.

Hey I remember this terminology. I think the Latin (well I think that shit was Latin anyway) in Dies Irae for 流出 was a little different though.

>>35930749
>Ayakashi kinda does this
The plot seems interesting, and the art is nice. I'll add it to my list of games to consider playing.
>there are three sub-scenarios where you see a part story from another character POV and discover more things about the plot
Do you see all these stories in one playthrough, or do you need to pass more than once to see them all? How do you think or feel this impacted the narrative and your decisions?
>>35930803
>Not sure why you had to post that picture and then ask a decent question
I'd like to clarify that I'm not trying to shitpost or jest otherwise. I attempted (perhaps poorly) to find an image that would convey the topic well.
>Rasen Kairou series
Interesting. I looked at the tags on VNDB, and it seems you get to unlock a different POV on subsequent play-throughs. I'm not a particular fan of unavoidable heroine rape or gang rape, so to be direct, I don't know if I'd play this series. That said, I'm curious how shifts of perspective might be able to impact player impressions of characters. I suppose I can see how it becomes repetitive, but if you can make it meaningful in some way to the plot, I can see it being really indulging. As an example, Didn't FF VIII do something like that?

In some games or novels, you might not always truly know what a non-protagonist character is aiming to achieve unless you find clues and deduce it naturally. Who could be presented as a cold or even evil character could have good intentions, but not display them or convey them in a socially-responsible, directly comprehensible, or ethical way. If you hand over the perspectives, at what point do you lose the value of not knowing something and then acquiring that realization? How do you avoid this meta knowledge impacting your performance when shifting from one character to another? It's considerations like this that, in the context of visual novels, I believe may be particularly difficult to manage compared to within something like, say, a typical survival action RPG, or a movie.

Again, I do hope this hasn't come across as some autistic shitpost. I suppose it isn't even a concept exclusive to VNs. That said, the idea of a VN possessing this concept and executing it well seems like an interesting, albeit troublesome juggling act.

>>35931040
Not him, but the 3 sub scenarios in Ayakashi are extra routes you can access after finishing the main routes. They add some extra context to the story and have 1 H scene each.

>>35931040
Uh yeah, nearly everyone gets raped in that multiple times in a bunch of different ways. There's a shitload of endings and it's one of those "gotta collect them all" things. I can't imagine it possibly being your cup of tea.

>That said, I'm curious how shifts of perspective might be able to impact player impressions of characters. I suppose I can see how it becomes repetitive, but if you can make it meaningful in some way to the plot, I can see it being really indulging.
It was kind of hit or miss. For instance, Youko's perspective in Rasen Kairou 1 I found to be an unbelievably dull slogfest. If you're not retarded, you can figure her ordeal from just the "main story" from the protagonist's perspective really easily. I guess if it hits your specific fetish maybe it's okay but by that point in the game you've already read tons and tons of text about Aoi and Kano rape so it's just a chore. On the other hand, there was Shion's perspective in that game that was actually interesting and added a lot to the plot and story. It kind of has gay sex out of nowhere though. That was weird.

Rasen Kairou 2 was better in nearly every way. It handled the different perspectives pretty well overall. There are actually even 2 main protagonists. Their stories intersect and diverge at a couple of points and it added a lot to the overall plot. Well I guess Touko's perspective is kind of throwaway/fetish bait mostly, but all the other perspectives were pretty well done. Especially that part in Kaori's perspective. Holy fucking shit I didn't see that coming. Honestly, I'm surprised I enjoyed that game so much considering how much I didn't like the first one.

>>35931161
Sounds great to me. Is it just a simple "reload save at [x] point and adjust decisions briefly" sort of thing? Or, would I need to start a new game?
>>35931189
>Their stories intersect and diverge at a couple of points and it added a lot to the overall plot.
I think this may be a notable point of focus in your notes that should be given particular attention. This mixture of "hands on, hands off" winding of paths for each protagonist/deuteragonist might be what makes the concept work. Juggling towards a common player meta goal while sating and otherwise juggling the interests and needs of two (or more) player-controlled protagonists must be really interesting. I'm guessing that it didn't go that deep in the Rasen Kairou series, but having this interaction between your two characters might have provided you, as the player, more opportunities for unique scenes you may not have had if you only had one character with one set of a character's knowledge. Though I'm unlikely to play it, it's been interesting to consider the scenario examples you've presented and how they might affect the overall experience. Thanks for conversing with me in depth on this topic.

>>35931299
> Is it just a simple "reload save at [x] point and adjust decisions briefly" sort of thing?
Yes. But there's also a flowchart that you can click on to jump to the right chapter, and skip functionality, so you don't need to bother saving in the right place. It's just a single new choice that is unlocked after completing the normal route.

>>35930556
Season of Sakura, True Love and Three Sisters' Story.
I was on the 11-13 bracket though.

>>35930665
>if a side character was the protagonist instead, or if you could just "turn off" the main protagonist and switch to another at some point in a route?
All the anim NTR games do exactly this

Romance scenes are supposed to be a reward, but they're unbearably awkward and boring to sit through.
Nothing good comes out of escalating your relationship with a character. You're just dumping whatever possible intrigue there could have been into the trash for more ラブラブ shit.
It's probably because I'm playing bad but easy-to-read VNs.

Has anyone tried using the extreme filters for Fraternite?
How good is it in censoring out the gory scenes in particular?
Been wanting to check the game out as I really like Hamashima Shigeo's art, but can't stand bloody scenes too much.

>>35932865
It censors it but you really shouldn't be reading it if you're not into that.

>>35931910
Isn't that just netori at that point? Unless you're getting cucked and being the individual promoting the state of being cucked, in which case...I have no idea what that is, because it's both.

>>35932379
We get it, you hate moeges. Why don't you read Muramasa for the 6th time and blogpost about it?

>>35933313
>Why don't you read Muramasa for the 6th time and blogpost about it?
Well, since you asked, why didn't Kageaki just use Muramasa's magnetism manipulation to rip Yagyu's sword out of his hand? He wanted to win the fight without killing him, and Muramasa's power is to manipulate magnetism nearby, so she should be able to just magnetize Yagyu's sword and make it fly away.

>>35908698
>Date Masamune
>Katakura Shigenaga
>Satake Yoshishige
>Mogami Yoshiaki
>Asakura Yoshikage
>Keiji Maeda
>Mōri Motonari
>Mōri Takamoto
>Kikkawa Motoharu
>Kobayakawa Takakage
>Mōri Terumoto
Nice. Here's hoping for additional girls from Chosokabe, Otomo and Shimazu in the future expansion. Also, Koihime not adding new girls?

What are some good moege toilet scenes?

>>35934070
>good moege

>>35934070
muv luv

>>35934081
Good scenes from moege, not necessarily scenes from good moege

>>35934153
Apart from that

http://ainolinks.com

Any expectation on this one?
Art looks very nice but It is company first game.

>>35934070
Maki's route in Tsujidou-san has a pretty good one.

>>35934582
I'll at least download the trial. The girls look cute and there aren't nearly enough kussu games coming out nowadays.
I'm guessing that it will probably be terrible though.

>>35934582
Did you know that a girl's legs are the warmest part of their bodies?

>>35934582
Trial was a bit annoying with an overuse of sounds effects for the "funny" moments but other than that it was fine.
I'm playing it for the seiyuu, still wondering who 葉月ひかり is since a complete newbie doesn't really fit with the rest of that cast.

>>35928670
Study literally anything real outside of Japanese porn games, philosophy, history, literary theory, whatever, and you’ll be able to write something better than 村正 in a year or two.

>>35934917
stop pretending you read it in japanese

>>35934917
>Study literally anything real outside of Japanese porn games, philosophy, history, literary theory, whatever
What should I study instead?

>>35934998
Start with the Greeks, Chinese or Indians.

>>35934662
>new company
>new seiyuu
What did they mean by this

What do you think about this, /jp/?

>>35934153
I love that scene.

>>35935218
>騙されて
What the fuck happened exactly? People shit on her art but I want it back.

>>35935218
Whoa what the fuck happened? Well her going back to Key sounds good to me. Maybe they can make a new kamige or something.

>>35935278
She isn't going back. Visual Arts rejected her when she tried.

>>35935278
Read the second part of the tweet.

>>35935301
>>35935307
Oh my bad, I didn't realize Visual Arts was Key-related.

>>35935270
>騙されて
>What the fuck happened exactly?
Beats me. In 2016 her reason for living was developent of Key games taking too long

>>35935339
*leaving

>>35934582
It reminds me of Koikake. Gonna give it a try.

>>35935339
I wonder if that is just tatemae. Feeling like your work is unappreciated is enough of a reason to leave, but surely some other shit went down.

>>35935270
>>35935339
Her first post-Key game was a MangaGamer flop. Western grass probably looked green and enticing at the time (this was also the golden age of kickstarters).
I think people everywhere were more optimistic about the future back in 2016 before everything went to shit.

She's been doing this for 25 years. The general quality of art and tastes of the people have moved past Key's classics as we also see with Maeda's recent work. I don't like watching them suffer and hope they retire on a higher note but knowing Japan's current economy, things will probably continue to suck.

>>35935339

>>35934998
Zen, and by study I don't mean book learning

>>35935218
Maybe she should have done her reps.
Other artists from her generation already evolved, while her art is still shit.

>>35936874
I think her art is cute in early Key games, but it's getting worse somehow.

>>35934917
>philosophy
>history
>literary theory
村正 has all of that.

>>35936880
>>35936874
I liked her art in Rewrite, for some reason the quality of it went downhill after that. Still, I'm sure there must be publishers willing to contract her for some shitty LN jobs even if her art is far worse than mediocre and she lives off recognition from a brand she's not even involved in anymore (I did miss her in Summer Pockets, though).

I don't see issue with her art. Most VN art is pure how to draw manga garbage. Her is not even this bad compared to what you can see

The fact is, people didn't buy her shit without Key label.
Which is why she posted that tweet, anyway.
Other artists are doing fine doing their own stuff.

>>35937007
There's still more to an eroge than just art. Hard to say trash like Haruka Drive is a must play even if it has ero done by her.

>>35935339
Well, that is petty excuse in this day and age. Why not promoting herself by posting her drawing on twitter or pixiv or something at that time?

>>35935339
The struggle is real but I don't really feel as bad for her now. Not like she got scammed or something.

does anyone have a copy of the sona nyl side story 紫影のソナーニル　『補章　月のない夜に』? there was mega links to it in the archive but they got zapped

Hmm, that's a tough one.

>>35939550
I wonder if there's a person out there that genuinely gets lost by these kinds of super obvious choices and needs to be told which one will lead to a bad end.

What is the epitome of onions-boys エロげ？

>>35939648
Muramasa

>>35925744
Too bad they can't see their newer work is even worse.

>>35939648
敵のおならは臭いけど味方のおならは臭くない、それは俺の命たった一つの導く概念です。

>>35940034
Did you just make this up

>>35940044
This is who I am, you can't make up a whole ideology just like that in 5 seconds. Think before you type next time.

>>35939648
Stuff with NTR?

>>35937039
>Haruka drive
Holy shit I forgot that.
Time to read some trash then.

>>35940531
Can you give us some impressions? Nobody really talked about it on EGS

Poor Ennis. She seemed like a nice woman.

>>35940663
(P)ennis

Any recent games featuring scenes where the MC walks in on a girl using the toilet?

>>35941281
Does it count if the girl using the toilet is the MC and she gets walked in on?

>>35941351
Yes. Is there a VN where that happens? I have a collection of VNs with toilet scenes and was thinking of expanding it further.

>>35941467
Well then Dead Aegis from earlier this year has a scene like although I dunno if it's what you're exactly looking for.

>>35941489
I was thinking more of scenes where a girl is peeing and she gets walked in. Something like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7QZ1EZB0p4..

>next hulotte game has no imouto
>again
Fuck this gay earth.

>Killing is inherently wrong because the person you're killing is a fellow human being with both good and bad, so you should do everything in your power to avoid killing wherever possible
OK
>And, just to drive the point home about just how bad killing is, you have to double your kill count whenever you kill someone, because I'm trying to make a point here. The best way to demonstrate that something is wrong is to force people to do more of it, after all.
That's what 善悪相殺 means? That's the moral of the incredibly deep greatest kamige of all time Muramasa? This changed people's lives?

>>35942489
are you forgetting that this is coming from the villain of the game

>>35942615
Except the entire next 20 minutes are Kageaki agreeing with her and saying she's totally right, and him realizing that is the catalyst for the rest of the plot of the route. He even says that he knew she was right all along but was in denial.

>>35942635
ok that's pretty retarded then. carry on.

>>35942635
It's true though, what's your issue with it? Kageaki is mentally ill btw

>>35942692
>killing is always wrong, so you have to kill innocent people unnecessarily in order to demonstrate how wrong it is
You don't see the issue with that?

muramasa is the worst thing to ever happen to the eroge community

>>35942710
What community?

>>35942709
I don't know how deep into the game you are but you should keep reading.

>>35942709
It is a curse and the point of it was to remind the user that there is no just in killing. It also come with a brain washing power.

Nevertheless it failed miserably and brought the nanboku-cho to doom.

>EOP mad because he cant read god tier eroge like Muramasa

Looks like you are in the wrong thread.

>>35942792
also it was made by a guy that literally got cucked

>>35942792
>It is a curse
Except they also give big speeches about how it's not actually a curse, it's just the truth of the world.
>the point of it was to remind the user that there is no just in killing.
By making them kill more people?

>>35942958
By making them kill people they actually care about.
Get ready to sacrifice something you treasure in order to kill somone, pretty simple message.

>>35942958
why are you trying to talk about shit like this before finishing the fucking game? you just want to be upset

>>35942976
I was mostly hoping somebody would say that I'm wrong and there's more to it.

>>35943001
You're wrong and there's more to it.

>>35943018
ok thanks

>>35943001
I don't know what you want man, want me to write out the ending to every route? Just go read the book or drop it

>Tfw getting ear-whispered by your smug student about cuddling.
My heart is going to give out, lads. Lolige may be the pinnacle of comfort. I have so much more fun reading these things than any other game in several years. I'm really enjoying my time with Tsuushinbo, even if I'm slow at reading. The characters are cute, likeable, and seem to have some alright development for a nukige (from the perspective of a greenhorn). The (so far softer) ero scenes I've seen have been well-described, and I enjoyed both reading the text and neat imagery/sounds.

I'm really surprised how they managed to make more of an impression on me with Nonoka so quickly, as her first appearance suggested more of a flat, lazy character. Looking forward to seeing how all of them change, though I think I recall an anon here saying they became a bit 'flanderized', so I'll just have to wait and see. It will take me a while, but I intend to finish the game and get all four endings. I'll post my thoughts when it's all done, eventually.

>>35943072
The fourth harem route is just a string of h-scenes, I wouldn't consider it a real ending, more bonus content for clearing the other three routes.

>>35942958
>Except they also give big speeches about how it's not actually a curse
Yes, cursed to demonstrate the truth of 武.
>By making them kill more people?
The original intention of the creator is make it as a deterrent so he gifted both side a Muramasa. (The 2nd and the 1st)
But like I said it failed.

Then you got psychopath like Hikaru who can simply ignore the curse because she has no sense of right or wrong.

Spoiler for true ending You probably wouldn't like it since Kageaki went even more extreme in this ending, but whether he is in the right or not I think is up for the reader to decide

>>35943084
>I wouldn't consider it a real ending
Is there anything that is considered the 'real' ending, considering there are three heroines to choose from? I wonder what the DLC/sequel part may be like too, and how much content they may have, or if they have any routes to manage as well.

bros...I had a moment of weakness and tried my hand at playing something untranslated. So I went with some oldish game, not too heavy on story. It appealed to my fetishes, too.
Surprisingly understand way more than I expected. Enough to follow what's going on.
But... bros... there's way too many scenes in this nukige. Scary effective, too.
I went through a shitload of them, and after visiting the extras menu, it seems as if it has material for several months of daily use w/o repeats.
The fuck am I supposed to do. How can I ever get rid of these s?m?n demons?!

>>35943416
Don't forget, you're here forever.

>>35943420
>>35943416
Save me, someone.

>>35943072
I like lolige but had to give up on this one when the OP played. A shame because I really like the designs but the scene of the protagonist basically molesting Nonoka under the slide was pretty uncomfortable for me.
I think I normally would have been ok with it but the fact that it came after a pretty well executed arc of him learning to open up to his students and stop being such a selfish and by-the-books asshole made it feel even worse to see him take advantage of his student's innocence like that.

>>35942879
source?

>>35943416
>>35943425
Send help.

>>35943596
>had to give up on this one when the OP played.
>made it feel even worse to see...
To clarify, did you play up to that point and finish the scene's proper route, or did you just see pics others posted? Where did you stop? I'm two chapters ahead of that scene myself, so I have a lot left to clear. Personally, I didn't see the rain scene in such an egregious light as you might have, especially having taken the gentle approach. I can see why you may have experienced it that way, though I think it may still be worth reading past that. Even if you view the protagonist in a somewhat negative light for that, he constantly reflects on his behavior (including during and after that scene), so it's not like he's some ぐすぐす super-rape NTR basement slave-having warlord. Well, at least that's been my observation thus far.
>a pretty well executed arc of him learning to open up to his students and stop being such a selfish and by-the-books asshole
Yeah, I thought that was done well too. It is really long and kind of depressing in my opinion, which as a novice reader, wasn't the best to work with, but it gave the game a big feeling of transformation that I can appreciate with each scene that follows. I think the initial investment of all that time spent "developing" the protagonist in the excessively long introductory arc gave me a lot of incentive to continue reading. Because of that, as well as the exciting writing for the ero scenes so far, I want to see how the protagonist develops towards the end, and ultimately, how the relationships with his students turn out in each ending.
>I like lolige
I take it you're more interested in more romance-focused lolige? Any recommendations? I'd really like to play one once I finish 通心ぼ 1,000 years from now. Going at a snail's pace, but I'm dedicated to finishing it before I touch anything else.

>>35943799
I played the game all the way through to the end of that scene where the OP plays and haven't touched it since. I agree that I'm taking the least charitable interpretation of the scene and he does clearly feel bad about it afterwards but it just left a bad taste in my mouth and I got the feeling that the H-scenes would probably be the same way.
I also liked that feeling of transformation of the protagonist into a good person and responsible teacher but was thinking during the whole introduction like "damn this is going to have to pull an emotional 180 for him to start fucking his students". When that first sexual contact came it felt really jarring just like I expected.
I like lolis but don't enjoy when they are tricked or manipulated into sexual situations without really understanding what's going on, I much prefer if things or mutual or initiated by the loli. If you tell me that the pattern shifts after that scene and the sexual impetus starts coming from the girls then I might pick it back up again at some point. The art is really nice and Nonoka especially is a cute.

>>35939614
Anyone, who has played enough games where the super obvious bad ending choice is the right one. Like in Fate Stay Night. Want to fight Berserker, a giant with a massive sword, as a human being without any fighting skills? Or maybe try to not do that and run.
You fight? You get shit on, but get magically protected by deus ex machina. You try to run? You get shit on, and game over.

It's not the only game. There are actually tons of games that do crap like that.

>>35942489
Most kamige are at least somewhat overrated, for some reason people in this niche are easily impressed by anything that stands out from the norm or has a grand feel to it.

>>35943955
>"damn this is going to have to pull an emotional 180 for him to start fucking his students"
Yeah, the initial major protagonist character development progressed so suddenly that it was kind of weird, but in a relieving way to me. The mood was always just unpleasant and disinclined before. With regards to the rain scene, from my perspective, both directly after and throughout the next chapter, Nonoka didn't seem at all personally bothered. If anything, more positive and affectionate. So, from a results standpoint, I think it may have just been a matter of pacing that threw you off. Personally, I think the pace was just right, but if you were especially jarred from that intro, it makes sense.
>If you tell me that the pattern shifts after that scene and the sexual impetus starts coming from the girls then I might pick it back up again at some point.
Well, it will certainly take quite a long while to finish due to my budding linguistic skills, but I will certainly post about my experiences and overall impressions here in the future. Personally, I'd like to see some heroine initiative at some point too, though in contrast, I think I will see some of that. Eventually.
>I much prefer if things or mutual or initiated by the loli.
Any examples off the top of your head? I'm looking to fill up my list of potential games to play after this.

>>35944003
>for some reason
I can't really blame them, given the majority of games. Just those games usually age really badly. Games that aren't anything special but well received are generally aging better, as they are well done. Games that got popular for being something different are usually much worse off.
I've played a bunch of games released between mostly 2000 and 2010 within the last years, and that was my personal experience. At least for the most part. There are always exceptions, though usually those ended up perhaps not as "different" as one might think at first.

Not good.

>>35944747
wtf?
that is unexpected

>>35944837
I mean it is set in a juvenile detention center, specifically the ward for not totally mentally stable individuals.. Minor spoiler since it's hidden where it's set until the end of prologue, but you can assume it very early on.

>>35943957
For that particular choice, charging berserker is clearly the correct choice (gotta think meta not logically). I agree that there are other choices in F/SN that are unintuitive but overall it's a pretty big outlier in what I've played when it comes to the choice system.

>>35945142
>gotta think meta not logically
I pick what my character would have picked.

>>35943955
Well I've only finished one route so far, but the girls are plenty horny themselves so it's mostly pretty mutual. That said there's still a gap between how the narrative portrays sensei (such a nice, caring guy) and what he actually actually does. If you think too hard on it, it'll bother you.

>>35943955
>I much prefer if things or mutual or initiated by the loli.
I agree with this too. If the MC initiates especially at first, it seems too much like he's taking advantage of her or even assaulting her. I know that's the point for some people, but lolis are cute and I want to see them treated gently.

Anyone got a copy of Ayakashi that's not a rapidgator link? Nyaa torrents have 0 seeders.

https://vndb.org/v25

>>35945476
Do you want Ayakashi standalone, Ayakashi Pack (Ayakashi + Ayakashi H) or AYAKASHI アヤカシ 初回版 [v1.01]?

>>35945597
The standalone. I appreciate it man

>>35945696
It's gonna take a while, keep lurking this thread (even the next one maybe).

>>35945740
Alright, I will. Thank you anon

>>35945476
I actually managed to download both Ayakashi and H off nyaa not too long ago. Get the pack downloads for both.

Haven't been around for a few months and this place has gone down the shitter. What happened here? Reads like EOP /vn/

I just saw the new Hamham Soft on a download site and the succubus girl gets gangbanged? Or imaginary? https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/67669610/c1132196sample3.jpg.html
Will this be the death of Hamham Soft because they've been on a roll of bad games for quite a while. The art is still good although I miss Shitou's lolis.

>>35943072
I felt the same about Nonoka, really surprised me how cute she was. Didn't like the game too much though. Unlikable protagonist and too many boring scenes.
>>35943596
>>35943955
I wouldn't say it made me uncomfortable but the H-scenes felt out of character for sensei and randomly shoved in. His thoughts were always about how boring the town life is and his responsibilities as a teacher. No mention at all of being attracted to lolis. Then out of the blue he cops a feel here and there and does other stuff like it's nothing. It was weird without buildup or anything. The H-scenes are good, but the writing for sensei is terrible. MC should've been a transfer student for lolishota action.

>>35946207
Cloned MC, it even says so on the official page.
From what I've seen it's being received well enough, shame the imouto isn't smaller.

>>35946273
Cloned MC is the most cowardly shit, why can't we get real gangbanging in moege

>>35946349
Because it would cease to be moege

>I want girls who arent of the mental age to understand the act of sex to consent.
Holy fuck.
You lolipedos are fucked in the head.

>>35946588
It's fiction, even if that consent doesn't exist in real life, it can in 2D. And either way you look at it, it's less fucked to imagine mutually loving and gentle sex over molesting/raping the loli.

>>35935932
Holy based.

>35946588
>m-muh realism in fiction
>virtue signalling on /jp/ of all places

>>35946685
If you fap to 2d bara shit I will call you a homo.
If you fap to 2d children I will call you a pedo.
Also rape is rape, wether its gentle or rough.

>>35933759
Don't know if you know about the gacha game they released a couple months back, but they also have the new girls that were introduced from there too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfQOIK1Sz-Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QHYa6yQ2Rw

Lolis always consent and initiate/seduce in Yoru no Hitsuji games.

>>35946273
>says so on the official page
Didn't check anything other than pics. Cloned MC is fine. I'll backlog it

35946930
you might want to leave 4chan and go back to plebbit or resetera

>>35945476
Here's AYAKASHI アヤカシ 初回版 [v1.01], game and update, hosted on >anon-file
>/3es0n5Acu6/v25_r239_Disc-JP_rar
>/t1yfn5Adu3/v25_v1.01-Update_rar
If you want me, I can also upload Ayakashi H from the Pack version like >>35945906 said.

Talking about Ayakashi H, I have an issue with the pack version from nyaa. You know Win10 can mount isos without additional programs, right? Well, I mounted the iso image, an error popped up but the image still appeared in the drive. Installed the game, unmounted image.

Up to that point no issues, the game works. The main issue is that I cant delete the iso because it is being used by System but no image appears mounted in the virtual drive. Any ideas?

>>35947579
If you restart the system, does it says it's still mounted when you log in?

>>35947601
After restart or shutdown it doesnt appear mounted in My PC but when trying to mount the image again an error appears. Only with that image, other isos can be mounted fine.

>>35947674
Have you tried another program to mount the image?

>>35947686
WinCDEmu can mount the image without errors. The error only appears when trying to mount with the default Win10 program, the same one that is locking the file somehow.

>>35947674
>>35947773
I've had this happen with some ISO files before, it appears to be random. W10's default image file-mounting utility is buggy as all hell.

Vndb just added an option to add your own play time. Maybe now we'll have a more accurate lenght on most VNs.

The biggest loser in this is poor 父さん who seems like a genuinely good dude but has his daughter fucked (literally) by pedo-sensei in his own house without his knowledge.

>>35947502
This is good anon. I found a good Ayakashi H torrent on nyaa, so I'm fine for that. Again, thank you very much

>>35948101
lmao I feel like this could be the set up for a good dark comedy

>>35947579
Using Windows' built-in ISO mounter is like using its built in zip file support. Don't do it.
The best way to use Windows is to turn off or ignore as many features as possible, since many of them don't work properly or cause performance issues.

>>35947951
Not sure I like or hate this. The change comes far too late. If the shown value changes "democratically" based on votes then many games will get fucked over easily. And
>- Only vote if you've completed all normal/true endings.
No one will do that. It'll be abused to hell and back. The reader speed value is also a weird addition. I for one can read extremely fast but because I listen to all voice lines and often take breaks my playtime is bloated. Well maybe this feature won't even be used by too many users. Can't end up worse than the image tagging garbage where not even the people setting the rules follow the rules lol.
The only recent feature addition I really love is showing the status of games on my list when browsing. Always wanted something like that. The revamped search I don't use much because the UI sucks.

>>35948101
They should've made something like those loli anime where it's full of ecchi but nothing really happens, and then create a time-skip sequel where the mc fucks all of them.

Imagine being a professional artist for 25 fucking years
And still draws something like this
And she wonders why nobody wants her

>"used GTT"
What is that? Keep seeing it in the vndb length vote notes.

>>35948416
So much soul

>>35944747
She looks fairly cute and not angry despite.

>>35949445
https://vndb.org/t16728
Gameplay Time Tracker

>>35948307
Usual in loli anime there's at least one hag and she always wins the MCbowl.

>>35949664
It would take 10 seconds to write a script to do this. Does this really need a separate program now?

>>35946349
>Cloned MC is the most cowardly shit
No, it's the perfect middle between tasteful semi-vanilla plowing and cuck garbage.

>someone finished YU-NO 100% in 17 hours
>it's not even the zoomer edition with auto-hints, quick saves and other QoL crap
REALLY now 17 hours

What's stopping vndb to add script size in KB instead?
Some companies pay their writers per KB too

>>35950209
wow the fuck.
>not even
The new version's soulless anime-style.
Old game had a lot of soul, with its FM synth music and dithered graphics.

>>35950357
>What's stopping vndb to add script size in KB instead?
How are they supposed to know the script size of every game?

>>35950472
I listen to the OST all the time. One of my favorite games.

>>35899045
Web archive is usually what I use to retrieve files from dead sites but it didn't archive it.
https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://air.sub.jp/arc/paradise.zip
There's a 2ch thread for these: http://awabi.2ch.sc/test/read.cgi/download/1613929303/

>>35950900
Thanks, those 2ch links look handy to save.

>>35939500
https://www4.zippyshare.com/v/tfIvzLK9/file.html
https://www4.zippyshare.com/v/WFfWNWFV/file.html
https://www4.zippyshare.com/v/g1xw0sSM/file.html

Very important note.

>>35950209
Yu-no it's bullshit. I'm playing a VN right now and it took 8 hours on automode to get to the route split. Someone marked the VN as 8 hours long while checking the "normal" reading speed.

>>35951511
That's definitely bullshit but I don't think auto-mode is representative for "normal" reading speed. Default auto speed is far too slow as a measure.
I've already seen a lot of bullshit votes but voting is still better than edit locks with wrong values set by a retard. Another bonus is that I can now see who on vndb is a filthy speedreader and who skips voices.

Does anyone know where to find Duel Savior Justice? A-S has some links but they are from years ago.

>>35943955
>If you tell me that the pattern shifts after that scene and the sexual impetus starts coming from the girls then I might pick it back up again at some point
That does happen but he pretty much grooms them into having a crush on him so it's not really "wholesome" or whatever you actually want. Though I think you're a bit delusional for claiming you like lolis and getting turned off by that.
To the guy reading it I only really did Emi's route (and I thought it was really really good), the other girls I didn't like that much

I like how the heroic battle music starts playing when Know tries to murder him to steal the doc's rare drugs. It's for the sake of his imouto please understand.

>>35951511
>>35951702
For games like Yu-no is much harder to get an accurate playtime because you can examine a ton of stuff and get new text or info. Or if you play without a guide you can walk around in circles without finding the right trigger to progress. Heck, even using a guide it can still get confusing.

Another similar case is Snatcher, you can use Look and Talk command multiple times to get new text and it adds up to the playtime compared to simply doing the bare minimum to advance.

>>35952758
I used a minimal guide and it still took me 60 hours for 100%. The epilogue alone took me 10 hours. Admittedly I screwed up a bunch of times like 4 attempts to do the labyrinth in Mio's route. And some scenes didn't want to trigger so I wandered around for an hour to find the trigger. I felt like 60 hours was too fast using a vague guide. Looks like I was slow.
>you can use Look and Talk command multiple times to get new text and it adds up to the playtime compared to simply doing the bare minimum to advance
Yeah, same is in YU-NO. NPC dialogue and clicking on objects constantly change. So much to discover.

anyone else think it was epic when kageaki kills himself to defeat his daughter hikaru (the ginseigou)

>>35953423
But he didn't actually die from that.

>>35947024
Oh yeah I knew that, they add Hideyoshi's sister Kinoshita Hidenaga, Sen no Rikyu, Araki Murashige and Asakura Kageaki. It's a shame that Koihime doesn't get another batch of new girls because Wei/Gi lacks of important ones like Zhang He and Xun You.

>>35953497
Not intentionally. And he probably kills himself a few years later anyway.

>>35953753
???
Did you skip the epilogue

New
>>35954505

>>35954387
No, in the time travel sequence Kageaki met an older Ichijou and she looks at him nostalgically. This is after Maou-hen since the has already been broken. If he still around I don't think she would react like that (he is in full armor and all), it also implies he has died for sometime now. We don't know Ichijou exact age but she probably in her thirties there, so about ten year after the epilogue. The killing himself is my guess since Kageaki said something like that in-game and there is also a lot of similarities between Muramasa and Hanachirasu endings.

>>35954571
If you played through 悪鬼篇then you know that he won't commit suicide.

Either Ichijou killed him in 10 years or he is still around being 武帝

>>35954612
It's possible. The way I see it though is that Kageaki's goal is to clean up the mess left after by Hikaru using the life she gave him. And after that he will do a double suicide with Muramasa as the ultimate act of 善悪相殺.

>>35948208
Fug, I've just left it to upload it all night.....
Still, here it is for those who want it:
>/l943q5Aau7/v263_r241_Disc-JP_rar

>>35951151
thanks, gonna make sure to pass it along as well