/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Sekai/Denpa
>NEKOPARA Catboys Paradise - Released
>2236 A.D. Secretary Stories - Prepairing for release
The Seventh Sign -Mr. Sister- - "Planning release", appears to have been rejected by Steam
Ley-Line: Daybreak of Remnants Shadow - Engine work in progress
Ley-Line: Flowers Falling in the Morning Mist - Fully localized, in engine work
Re;Lord Volume 2 - In QA
Harumade Kururu - Waiting on build
Rewrite+ - Original 98% translated and 85% edited, Harvest Festa 50% translated, QA started, release date TPD
Love Duction - 100% translated and edited, engine work in progress
Hoshizora no Memoria (retranslation) - Engine work in progress
Hoshizora no Memoria Eternal Heart - 100% translated, editing in progress
Island Diary - 90% through QA
Miko no Kanata - 100% translated and edited, awaiting engine work
Memory's Dogma - Code:01 Released, 02 onwards upcoming
Tenshin Ranman - QA and engine work next, in "icebox"
NarKarma EngineA - Announced
Subete no Koi ni, Hanabata o. - 50% translated
Sumire - Picked up
Sanarara R - 100% translated and edited, waiting on build
Amatsutsumi - 100% translated and edited, in QA
Kanojo no Seiiki - Picked up
Glass - Picked up
New Glass - Picked up
Kimagure Temptation - 100% translated and edited, 20% QA
>Karakara 3 - 100% translated and edited
Yume to Iro de Dekiteiru - Translation started
Zutto Mae Kara Joshi Deshita - Announced
Gakkou no Seiiki - Announced
Imouto no Seiiki - 40% translated
Kanojo no Seiiki - 100% translated and edited, engine work in progress
Chiisana Kanojo no Serenade - Announced
Hoshizora e Kakaru Hashi - Announced
Hoshizora e Kakaru Hashi AA - Announced
Akaneiro ni Somaru Saka - Announced
QUALIA ~The Path of Promise~ - 100% translated and edited
Re;Lord 3 - 100% translated, in editing
Amairo Chocolate 2 - 29% translated
>Slobbish Dragon Princess 2 - 100% translated, in editing

Nekonyan
Kin'iro Loveriche -Golden Time- - Kickstarter stretch goal to be localized reached
Hello Lady - Main game 100% translated, edited, and TLC, 50% QC, engine work being done by developer
Dracu Riot - 100% translated, TLC, and edited, engine porting starting shortly, HD release planned
Clover Days - 100% translated, TLC, and edited, engine porting ongoing, 2021 release
Koikari: Love for Hire - 100% transalted and edited, 25% QC
Melty Moment - 70% translated and TLC
Cafe Stella - 65% translated, edited, and TLC
Mirai Radio to Jinkou-bato - 100% translated and TLC, 78% edited, engine porting in progress
Aoi Tori - 45% translated and TL, engine porting in progress
Fureraba Complete edition - Vita exclusive content to be added to Fureraba a couple months after the fandisc release
Making＊Lovers: Geki Icha After Story - 30% translated and TLC
Secret Project 1 - 90% translated and TLC
Secret Project 2 - 40% translated and TLC

Fakku
Zero Chastity: A Sultry Summer Holiday - In Beta, September release planned
>Abaddon: Princess of the Decay - Demo out, in Beta testing, October release planned

Visual Arts/Key
Angel Beats 1st Beat - 50% translated
Loopers - English release planned

LoveLab
The Humbling of a Holy Maiden - 100% translated, 50% through programming
Chinkamo Twins! - 100% translated and edited

Aksys
Olympia Soiree - September 9th release
Dairoku: Ayakashimori - 2021 release
Variable Barricade - 2021 release

Shiravune
Doukyuusei Remake - Announced

Moonchime
Itoshi no Frankenstein - 2021 release
Tokyo Onmyouji - 2021 release

Other
>Horny Housewives Booty Call Blackmail - Released
Bustafellows - July 30th release
Oshi no Love yori Koi no Love ~Love or Die~ - July 30th release
Jiangshi x Taoshi - Episodes 1-3 released
Hakuchuumu no Aojashin - An English Steam release is planned, based on a new all ages version with other additional content
Evenicle 2 - Demo released, approaching new platforms after being rejected by Steam
Taimanin Asagi - Page for the Trial of episode 1 back on Steam
Venus Blood Hollow - Kickstarted finished, December 2021 release listed
Fault - Silence the Pedant - Demo released
Fault Milestone 2 - Side Below - Spring 2021
---
>Stuff like this has been either added or updated since the last thread

EOPbros... we won.

>>35746865
The tyranny of JOPs felled by Moogy's own hand...

>>35746865
mememasa is just one small win, the JOP still have many untransalted kamige

>>35747215
Nothing is left that's worth learning Japanese for.

>>35746760
>Django - Waiting on translation.

Is the translator okay?

>>35747215
saltbros...we lost...

>>35747215
Once DeepL is developed enough or a superior successor takes the mantel, it will be the final deathblow that will cause JOPs to meltdown. The amount of salt, bitterness, resentment, and cope will be off the charts.

Is the remastered version of saya no uta up on nyaa uncensored?

>>35749424
Reading something in translation is inherently inferior, you can cope all you want about being too stupid to learn Japanese but it won't change that

Hope they make more Catboys

>>35747215
the NEW and IMPROVED white album translation is coming out this autumn, just in time for snow

EOPs keep winning baby

>>35749424
You've been saying this about Google for 12+ years. When the next translation software comes out you'll make the exact same post.

>>35747359
Oretsuba
Sakura no Uta
Tsui no Sora Remake
Sakura Moyu
Asairo
Ruitomo
K3
Konnyaku
Albatross

>>35750847
>Oretsuba
I've got Wikipedia in English.
>Sakura no Uta
Everything I've seen from it seems like trash.
>Tsui no Sora Remake
I've got Subahibi in English, and it wasn't nearly as good as JOPs made it out to be.
>Sakura Moyu
Man I love to read the same words over and over again.
>Asairo
Only rated high by JOPs because it requires slightly above average reading comprehension.
>Ruitomo
Literally who?
>K3
Chuunitrash.
>Konnyaku
You should've said Parfait.
>Albatross
Same as both Asairo and Sakura Moyu.

>>35747359
A shitload of excellent nukige, which is what most people are interested in reading anyway.

>>35750974
>Chuunitrash.
Just like mememasa but with better quality and art. And proper sprites that change expression, not seeing the problem here.

>>35749647
And? It's still not worth learning the language.
>>35750847
I stand by my statement. Most of those I wouldn't read even if they got translated.
>>35752421
I have not and will never read nukige.

>>35753426
What do you read then?

>>35747215
>>35750847
Aiyoku no Eustia
Cross†Channel
White Album 2
Parfait
Atlach-Nacha
"Hello, World."
KonoAozora
Evolimit
Hateshinaku Aoi, Kono Sora no Shita de...
Atori no Sora to Shinchuu no Tsuki
Shizuku + Kizuato
Monobeno
Kusarihime
KimiNozo
Saihate no Ima

>>35753896
Lately I've been reading The Second Apocalypse by R. Scott Bakker.

>>35750974
>Oretsuba
>I've got Wikipedia in English.
I think you confused Oretsuba with Saihate no Ima

>>35749424
I always do my DeepL reps to read the hottest VN that dont get picked for official translation or unofficial patches.

>>35750847
>>35753972
I've learned over the years that a VN being hyped up as kamige doesn't mean that I'll like it or even that it's good, so unless there's something about it that is extremely interesting to me, or I know that I like the writer, or something like that to make me confident that I will like the game, it seems like learning an entire language for these is really just a dice roll. The games I felt the strongest about are all translated now and all that's left is stuff like this. Take an example, Ruitomo, nothing about this interests me at all. But it's a "kamige" so I guess I'm supposed to bow down or something.

>>35754290
You're correct. What I meant was, I've got dick jokes in English.

https://twitter.com/gambsVNs/status/1417097361701154817
What

>>35757755
What the fuck is FEMDIC

>>35757954
Schizo slang from a literal who.

>>35757755
>it's impossible to translate!
>if anyone translates it it's fanfiction!
>look at this thing moogy said on twitter!
yawn

>>35757755
It's like every single week there's just more and more that makes me hate this entire community and by extension this medium. Not only does something of this caliber get translated, and by the best translator that's actually working on VNs no less, but fuckheads like this try to come out and preemptively ruin it for people. When Moogy stopped being toxic it must have left a void to be filled by people like this. And that's the point. They want you to obsess over minutiae of the translation, so that when you read it you start to doubt whether it's accurate and you stop being able to enjoy it. This is the most toxic fucking "community" that I've ever been apart of and fucking sick of it. I think I'm just going to completely disengage from it.

>>35757755
And what has this fuck done? If he's such an expert what has he actually contributed? Oh he tried to get other people to translate Sakura no Uta, which he knew would fail. And he did a partial TL of Tsui no Sora remake, which he dropped as soon as someone was mean to him. Thanks for nothing, you fucking parasite.

>>35750974
>and it wasn't nearly as good as JOPs made it out to be.
Muramasa will be disappointing too :)

Can anyone introduce me to Umineko? (as spoiler-free as possible)

I'm pretty much interested in this series and wanted to learn more about it. I know the foundation of the premise like the story is about the confrontation between materialization and magic. I should not just accept statements about magic, always deny it, provide a reasoning and a trick behind it. I know some of the characters too which are pretty nice. I started the game before but postponed it early on since its really long.

I had this conversation before with my friend about it and I think I was pretty vaguely spoiled and said that Maria's "uu-uuuuu!!" is pretty funny to hear once I know who the culprit is, and "Well, you know, it is convenient for the culprit to make it look like witches exists", "Maybe witches exist, maybe not, that's why READ IT NOW" I can't tell if they're giving me clues or just getting along with my theories while fooling me by giving me these vague thoughts

Ohhh so basically this is a story where I have to figure out whether magic, witches, etc really exist and provide an explanation for their trick of being existing something like that?

It seems intruguing from these vague spoilers and synopsis but despite being worried, I seemed more interesting and I like it ;)

>>35758516
Go ask in the 07th expansion thread

>>35757755
Learning Japanese is confirmed to fuck you up.
This guy wants internet points so bad from this "community" but he hasn't translated shit.

>>35757755
Who would you trust more to give you an accurate representation of Muramasa? Gambs or Makoto?

>>35759114
The guy who translated Hanachirasu

>>35757755
He said similar shit like this about Sakura no Uta, that it was untranslatable (read the entire thread):
https://twitter.com/gambsVNs/status/1315159478409539584
Basically he believes that any complexity in Japanese cannot be rendered into English and that translation is inherently illegitimate and immoral. Remember that this is the position he's coming from whenever he says anything (again make sure you read that entire thread I linked). So I'm not sure what the point is of listening to anything he might have to say about any translation issues.

>>35759227
He also started translating Tsui no Sora and tried to organize the Sakuuta community translation, so that seems a little contradictory

>>35759293
I think he's a troll and never had any intention of either project succeeding.

>>35758095
I wouldn't take it so seriously. He's got barely any traction and on immediate glance I think most would conclude he's a crazy schizo

>>35758516
Umineko uses an unreliable narrator to constantly troll the reader, mixing magic and reality to the point where you don't know which is which. The epitaph has a solution from the very start, and gets explained as the story continues, specially around chapter 6-7, but it's quite >500IQ. The murderer identity isn't explicitly said in the visual novel, but it case you are <100IQ, the manga gives the answer.

>>35757755
Well he posted his "essay" on Reddit, explaining why no one should read Muramasa in English. It's basically this
>It's impossible to translate
>Any attempted translation of it will water it down so much that it's not the real text anymore
>Even attempting translate it is immoral and unethical
>"I cannot speak for the translator, Makoto, as I am unfamiliar with their work." (direct quote)
>Moogy said something on Twitter
Also he doesn't seem to have actually finished the game but just gone through parts of it to find things to complain about. I would understand this to therefore be what is called "concern trolling." He also uses pic related in the article and seems to think it's a real image from the game.

>>35761054
He hasn't even read Muramasa, lmao. He was somewhere in chapter 2 yesterday after stalling for months.

>>35759293
He "quit" because people on Twitter made fun of him, the faggot was never actually going to do anything.

>>35761110
Right, that's why I said it's concern trolling. He doesn't actually care about the game but wants you think he does and is acting in your best interest.

Back to his theory, though, his claim about things being "untranslatable" is restricted to style (the same occurs here >>35759227). He begrudges that the meaning of the text can be conveyed, but a translation may not be able to replicate the style of the original. But this is the fact of all translations. Is the meaning of the work not worth communicating, however? I doubt he has any thoughts on that since he hasn't read the VN.

>>35757755
>>35761054
The pic is a shop....has this guy even read it?

>>35761226
>But this is the fact of all translations.
That is to say, the translator conveys the meaning and does the best they can to replicate the style. The more talented a translator is, the better they can do this, but he is right that some things cannot be fully transferred stylistically. But its meaning is still there. That seems to be something the he discounts entirely, as if it doesn't matter.

>>35761256
No
https://twitter.com/gambsVNs/status/1417102119761498113

>>35761054
Someone in the reddit thread referred to gambs as
>The entire circus of clowns condensed in a single individual.
Accurate.

Not doomposting, but it seems like Kageaki's epic chant is translated as
>Where there are demons, I slay them. Where there are saints, I slay them.
https://press.jastusa.com/full-metal-daemon-muramasa
I just find this translation so weak and lifeless. Afaik it's based on a Zen koan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linji_Yixuan
Imo it reads much better when preserving the repetiton:
>Where I meet a demon, I kill the demon. Where I meet a saint, I kill the saint.
"Where there are" seems also to flow very badly. I hope it's not the final version. Can't read Japanese, btw.

>>35761567
>Where I meet a demon, I kill the demon. Where I meet a saint, I kill the saint.
I think that reads awkwardly in English.

>>35761567
>>35761615
I saw a translation of it a while back that read
>The Demon I meet, the Demon I slay. The Saint I meet, the Saint I slay.
I liked this initially, but after mulling over the official TL for a few days now I think it's grown on me.

>>35761615
Well you can replace "where" with "if", if that's what you mean. I think the first version just doesn't seem to capture the rhythm of the original.

>>35761705
>if
I thought of that too, but I think it's worse since it makes the entire thing sound conditional, which is contrary to it being a curse.

>>35761674
>The Demon I meet, the Demon I slay. The Saint I meet, the Saint I slay.
Seems way better than the official version.

>>35758095
Take it easy. Just think of him as the next Ludo or something.

>>35761567
It should be something like "If thou art a demon I shall cut thee" since it's supposed to be weird old Japanese.

>>35761567
A demon I meet shall under my sword slain. A saint I meet shall be the same.

>>35763681
Or more elegant: a demon I meet shall my sword slay. A saint I meet shall be the same.

>>35763641
Eh Ludo actually something. This guy seems like he's just a troll.

>>35763713
Really interesting solution. It flows much better. Using shall also gives it a slightly archaic sound.

>>35763713
>>35767138
no

gambs is a chad

>>35768244
lmao, if you buy this shit you're as much of a virgin as he is

>>35768241
You realize this isn't some casual statement? It's an archaic Buddhist incantation

>>35768464
It's based on that sure, but you need it to sound good in English. Your earlier point about it lacking the noun repetition was valid, but now you've dropped that in favor of a slant rhyme that even further loses the repetition of "slay." Makoto's version sounds straightforward and brutal, and I like it in that regard. I mentioned a more poetic rendering that keeps the repetition here >>35761674. Either one of those sounds good to me, but I don't like your suggestion at all.

>>35768244
Think about it. The most common reason to brag about something on the internet is when you have inferiority complex.
And, if a guy really fucked different girl ever 3 days, he would never had such problem because having many sex partners is one of the biggest ego boost male could possibly have.

>>35746760
Can they really just keep dragging Sharin no kuni out forever like this?

Anyone know why the Cross Channel text is still all jumbly even after I installed/reinstalled the font a few times? I've been trying over a few months now to get it to work and can't really think of anything else. Even tried reading it as-is but it's just too fucked at some points to make out the words clearly.

I'm retarded and really don't know where to ask.

>>35769321
That's the patch from Amaterasu, right? The readme file says that if the font is messed up then you need to install the Inconsolata font, which should be included as a .ttf file.

>>35769414
Yeah I installed the font via the windows method, reinstalled it by placing it in the folder, installed it from a different location and nothing. None of them worked. It is the ameterasu patch though

>>35769434
Are you set to Japanese locale? Try running the game as administrator. Also try running the game in compatibility mode for Windows XP.

>>35769321
>>35769507
Actually wait, I remember having some weird problem with this game similar to this when I played it. Where did you install the game? Try copying the entire install folder to your desktop and running it from there instead.

>>35769321
>>35769414
>>35769434
Uninstall the Amaterasu version and download the George Henry Shaft version. Be sure to read his 160,000 word monograph "On Cross Channel" before even touching the visual novel.

>>35769572
You have to install the Amaterasu patch to install GHS's patch, which works on top of it, dumb shitposter.

>>35769591
>You have to install the Amaterasu patch to install GHS's patch, which works on top of it
Now that is kino.

>>35769602
You also have to install a specific version of Python as well as several Python files lol.

>>35769507
>>35769523
I am using locale emulator, which I recall caused some issues a while back but I wouldn't think this would be caused by that(?) I set to compatibility and still nothing. Running as admin also did nothing. It was installed to a folder on my desktop, not in my C: drive or anything that might cause issues afaik.

I'll try this weird GHS patch in a bit once I have time though. Maybe that'll fix it.

>>35769652
>It was installed to a folder on my desktop, not in my C: drive or anything that might cause issues afaik.
Then put it somewhere else, like in your Documents or something. Just move the folder to some different location and try running again. I had to do this to get the game to work properly (I don't understand why).
>I'll try this weird GHS patch in a bit once I have time though. Maybe that'll fix it.
It's a different translation patch and isn't going to fix your problem. Don't install that unless you know for sure you want to read his translation (I don't recommend it).

>>35769691
Moved to my C: drive, another drive, documents, and then back to desktop. None of those worked.

>>35769750
I have three last suggestions then.
1.) Uninstall the game then reinstall it to your C: drive, if running it from there doesn't work then move the folder to the desktop and try again.
2.) Download and install the Inconsolata font from a different source rather than the one that came with the patch
3.) Actually switch your locale

>>35769787
I see. Thanks for the help. I'll give these a try when I've got time.

>>35769572
>Be sure to read his 160,000 word monograph "On Cross Channel" before even touching the visual novel.
There's that 7 again.

>>35761265
>>35761054
>People who read and enjoyed Muramasa in Japanese are happy about the translation
>Idiot who hasn't read the game is assmad about it being translating
What explains this phenomenon?

>>35771383
gambs is just a retard or a troll.

hahaha

Fuck off. No one cares about your eceleb shit.

>>35772266
Half the thread is eceleb shit at the moment.

Is there no one working on Sayonara wo Oshiete translation right now? If nobody is working on it, I might start on it myself since I have an obscene amount of free time on my hands.

>>35774883
Sure you will anon. I bet you'll even finish it too.

>>35774935
probably won't lmao. but is there like no one actually working on it?

>>35774972
Why are you typing like a teen?

>>35774883
>>35774972
There was a tlwiki project by Cafe and herkz

>>35774985
I live in a large urban shithole (Hartford). I can't help myself when this is what people around me type like constantly

>>35774991
Coming right after Sumaga!

>>35774991
TLwiki disappeared years ago sadly

>>35774972
As the other anon said there was a project going at one point but it's been abandoned for a long time

>>35746760
>Chaos;Head Noah - 9 routes finished translation, overall 95.39% translated, 9.67% edited
cool

Johren? More like Flopren https://twitter.com/shiravune/status/1417654727035129863

>>35777598
That's one of the few single heroine vns I was interested in reading, but I was expecting SP to pick it up instead.

>>35746760
>Django - Waiting on translation.
I want this 100x more than Muramasa.

>>35779710
Is it that good? Never seen anyone really praising it

>>35780120
It's a plebs filter.

Hey, I see EOPs got Chihiro. Good for you, scum. Great one.

>Muramasa is gonna come out before Hello Lady
absolutely pathetic

>>35761054
I have one more thing to say about this. I think that when people learn a foreign language and see manners of expression, instead of recognizing those things as merely different, they perceive them as new, interesting, and superior. Their own language, whatever it is, ends up seeing mundane in comparison, not because it's mundane but because they're used to it and are now starting to understand something they aren't familiar with. I think this happens a lot in regard to people who learn Japanese and read VNs. Something is not "untranslatable" because it can't be rendered in English, but because they think the English would seem to mundane to convey it. I recall reading a post from a Russian imageboard (translated) in which the Russian poster was instructing others not to bother with garbage Russian literature but to instead learn English, German, etc. You can see it for what it is when someone's saying it about your language, right? Anyway, I'll also note that one of his big examples of it being untranslatable was that it quotes a poem that's a pangram, as if that actually matters. He has a seemingly pathological obsession with form. Ever read an English translation of Homer or Virgil? English can't replicate their poetic meters in an exact manner. The work is destroyed, apparently.

>>35780810
>and see foreign* manners of expression

>>35761110
lol even Hata is further in and he is the same breed of schizo

>>35761567
The English translation is good because the nuance is that Kageaki has wordlessly accepted his fate and curse of the Muramasa blade and thus this "lifeless" translation is a perfect rendition of the state of mind involved when he says it: indifference.

It's said with the nuance that there is no other way around it, it's inevitable that he murders someone. Which is actually reinforced later in the game.

>>35774883
Hata keeps saying he wants to work on it but he probably didn't even start. Maybe ask him to join your project. It is his favourite game.

>>35781122
What's your take on pic related? There was a bit of argument about it last thread >>35704887 (that post notes what the difference is with the Japanese). Not that I'm complaining, but I had been thinking about what the reasoning behind it might be. I'm not a literalist and the rationale behind these decisions interests me a lot.

>>35781148
Translation theory dictates when a metaphor is too complicated to be rendered correctly you can use the function it offers (in this case standing still) and rewrite it. I also believe that the surface of a still lake would've been more expressive and imaginative but statues doesn't detract from it. The argument with not expressing the 物の哀れ correctly that particular scene is hermeneutic bollocks though.

The function and nuance is still preserved. Just with a different image that is more straight to the point. What I do not understand with this is that they only kept part of the metaphor? Like, the "beneath the surface" part is preserved even though the lake metaphor is not mentioned.

What surface do they refer to? Under their armor?

>>35781122
He wordlessly accepts his fate by saying words? I get your point, but the Japanese to me sounds "ceremonial", "graceful" and "rhythmical", like an ancient poem basically. This isn't really caputured by the translation in my view. I agree that it also has to express indifference or resignation. It's difficult, but I still think it could've been better.

>>35781201
>Translation theory dictates when a metaphor is too complicated to be rendered correctly you can use the function it offers (in this case standing still) and rewrite it.
I understand. I suppose what I was wondering about was what aspect of the original metaphor was deemed problematic regarding English. I have an idea myself but I'm not confident about it.
>What surface do they refer to? Under their armor?
"Beneath the surface" can be used without a metaphorical antecedent to refer to the actuality of a circumstance in contradiction to its appearance. I imagine a reader who did not know about the issue we're discussing would not have a second thought about it as it doesn't sound unnatural at all.

>>35781148
I absolutely prefer the DeepL translation, lol.
>To the casual observer, the scene is as unchanging as the surface of a lake. But beneath the surface...
I just don't understand the decision here. It's almost like the priority was compression. I don't see what is won, but I can see what is lost.

>>35781339
Okay, Gambs-

>>35781651
There's something about it that seems odd to me, like I don't think it's a comparison an English writer would use. I went into Google and Google Books and searched for "as the surface of a lake" and there were a few relevant similes, but they all referred to smoothness or flatness. Maybe that's it, I don't know.

>>35781759
WHO CARES WE WANNA RETAIN JAPANESENESS! ENGLISH HAS TO DIE FUCK EOPS

>>35768498
It's not merely one slant rhyme but two (slay/same/saint) and alliteration. Repetition doesn't always sound better especially when 'demon' combos less with the other words. But if you want at least parallelism here's another alternative I thought of which requires a bit of a creative leap:

A fiend I meet, shall my steel eat.
A saint I meet, shall my steel eat.

>>35781759
Just read Kawabata or Mishima. It's a classic lyrical image in Japanese literature, almost like cherry blossoms. And I fail to see why it would have to get "localized". The only reason I can think of is that the original sentence is weird. The scales of victory and defeat under the surface of the lake? What? It's either surreal or a failed mixed metaphor. Maybe Makoto wanted to rectify a failed metaphor by making "surface" more vague? The sentence now seems to leave it open whether "surface" even refers to statues. Maybe that was the intention. Was he saving Narahara from a failed sentence?

>>35782024
>Maybe Makoto wanted to rectify a failed metaphor by making "surface" more vague? The sentence now seems to leave it open whether "surface" even refers to statues.
I don't agree with you about this. "Beneath the surface" is just a normal phrase on its own and doesn't need to refer to anything other than the situation itself.

>>35781148
the kanji for "beneath the surface" that you guys are talking about literally uses the kanji for water and is actually more like "beneath the water's surface, however..." and the entire line loses its meaning when the lake from the prior sentence is changed to statues for no reason, gutting the original writer's prose and smashing together two metaphors that don't match instead
that's the real crime

>>35783002
>the entire line loses its meaning when the lake from the prior sentence is changed to statues
No it does not. Have you never heard someone use the phrase "beneath the surface"? It's a normal figure of speech and no metaphor is required. Are you an ESL?

>>35783202
Proof of my point
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/beneath+the+surface

>>35783202
did you even read my post, I said that 水面 specifically refers to water dipshit, removing the lake from the previous line kills the reasoning behind using that word rather than another with a similar meaning, are YOU an esl?

>>35783258
proof of my point
https://jisho.org/search/%E6%B0%B4%E9%9D%A2

>>35783258
Of course it refers to water. I already know what it says in Japanese. That's the entire aspect of it that we're discussing, the extension of the surface metaphor. I think it becomes redundant in English because you could just say beneath the surface and the meaning would be identical.

>>35781830
I hope the entire game is localized in this way. That's my favorite sort of translation to read.

>>35783002 is right. The original literally means "beneath the water's surface". Surface here is a metaphor. The scales of victory and defeat are beneath the water's surface.
>>35783202 is right, too. In Makoto's translation "surface" basically becomes a dead metaphor, a regular figure of speech. I think almost no one would read it as "beneath the statues' surface".
That's what I was saying with >>35782024. The mixed metaphor in the original sentence is weird. Beneath the metaphorical water's surface are the metaphorical scales of victory and defeat? Makoto eliminated this weirdness by replacing the lake with statues, thus de-metaphorizing the "surface" and making the sentence more "normal". This is something I often see translators doing, making weird things more conventional. Personally I still prefer to read the original's weirdness.

>>35783725
>Makoto eliminated this weirdness by replacing the lake with statues, thus de-metaphorizing the "surface" and making the sentence more "normal".
It was Moogy.

>>35783725
That's kind of what I meant when I said I had an idea about what the reason might be (>>35781339). I was thinking it was something about the first metaphor being chained into another metaphor, but I couldn't quite explain it. Your post helped clarify it for me.

Can't wait to have a thread for each line of the VN when it comes out.

>>35784059
Perhaps by then everyone will have become accustomed to this new and strange reality in which Muramasa is translated.

Lesson: just read Muramasa with DeepL.
>To the casual observer, the scene is as unchanging as the surface of a lake. However, beneath the surface of the water, the scales of victory and defeat, honor and ruin, are tipping.
>傍目には、湖面のように移ろわぬ情景。　されど水面の下、勝利と敗北、栄誉と破滅の天秤は傾きを定めつつある。

>>35784156
>雰囲気だけで言えば。自分に向かってくるものがあるなら、それが小石であろうと大岩であろうと、殴りつけそうな人だった。
>Just in terms of atmosphere. He was the kind of person who would hit anything that came at him, whether it was a pebble or a big rock.

>>35784156
>>35784204
I prefer Makoto's translation.

Judging from >>35781148 and >>35784204, I almost get the impression they were trying to improve or correct the original. Changing images and adding sentences. But maybe (hopefully) those are just exceptions.

>>35784271
>>35781148 is a downright distortion of the original. I have yet to read a persuasive defense of that decision. If you prefer to read a more ordinary, "normalized" version of the original sentence, then go for it.

>>35781997
That sounds kinda erotic

>>35784392
I do. I prefer a translation to be indistinguishable from a text originally written in English.

Mugi's editing ruined the game, it's basically a rewrite

>>35784284
>I almost get the impression they were trying to improve or correct the original.
That's what /ourguy/ Makoto does.
https://twitter.com/moogy0/status/797408577254227968

Visual Novel Fanfic Status

>>35784537
Then maybe you didn't understand the argument. This would be a more accurate version of Makoto's translation:
>To an observer, the two warriors might seem as unchanging as the still surface of a lake. Beneath the water's surface, however, the scales of victory and defeat, glory and disgrace, are already tipping in one side's favor.
There's nothing wrong with this sentence with regard to the ordinary usage of English. What is unusual is the image. The scales of victory and defeat under the surface the lake. They decided to eliminate what was unusual about the sentence. Why do you prefer their normalized version?

>>35784589
I just always saw everyone praising the guy, but this stuff is a bit worrying. I would even agree that >>35784204 did really improve the original sentence. But here >>35781148 it went wrong. They made it worse. That's the danger with this approach. They aren't professional writers and I'd prefer to read an accurate translation rather than what they decided to be an improved version of the writer's work.

Now I understand what Moogy meant
>I am confident our version of the game lives up to the original and stands on its own as a compelling work of fiction.
https://twitter.com/moogy0/status/1415744856786358278

>>35784666
If that were in an English novel it probably would have been edited down.
>>35784806
They do look like statues, you know.

>>35784806
>They aren't professional writers
Makoto I presume makes a living (or at least part of one) from this, so he's a professional translator. If he isn't a professional then neither is Narahara Ittestsu.

>>35785281
This is what I'm talking about. You have a guy like this, thinking he knows better than Narahara what Muramasa should look like and how it should be improved. Imagine having to read his version rather than a loyal translation of the original.
>>35785321
He's a translator, but not a writer, to my knowledge. A writer performs different tasks, like constructing strange metaphors of subaquatic scales of victory. A translator might think, "That's a weird, unusual image. Let's change it and make it more normal. I guess the writer probably intended it to be unusual, but I think I can improve his text by making the sentence more ordinary." That's what I mean, a translator tends to think differently than a writer. If the translator starts to think he's a writer, things can very quickly go wrong.

>>35785552
Of course I have no idea whether it's the decision of the translator or the editor, I mean this in general for both roles.

>>35785552
>You have a guy like this, thinking he knows better than Narahara what Muramasa should look like
Any translator must make the judgment of how a work should look in the target language. Don't act like this is some kind of singular affront. And yes, that includes modifying things to better fit the accepted style of the target language.

>>35785744
How does the change of the original meaning >>35784666 "better fit the accepted style of the target language"?

I had a bad feeling about the translation when moogy tweeted about wanting to change some lines which were extremely homophobic and justifying himself for doing so. I just hope that they aren't rewriting too much, what is even the point of calling it a translation if you are going to rewrite the ''boring'' and offensive staff?
Look at pic related and tell me that Maria would have been justified if she changed it because it offends her.

>>35785959
I don't get how he's going to censor things without removing the voiced lines completely.

>>35785932
By fixing the overwrought metaphor. Maybe that's normal in Japanese. I wouldn't know.
>>35785959
>>35786067
There's no proof that anything of that sort was actually changed. What moogy said about it would lead me to believe he didn't change anything.

>>35784156
I've been contemplating the idea of doing this because the VNs I want will never get translated. But how to I run them through deepl? Taking pics would be tedious.

>>35786087
>By fixing the overwrought metaphor.
How is the metaphor 'overwrought'? What if it's the exact equivalent of the 'overwrought' Japanese? And since when do translations delete 'overwrought' metaphors when they can be rendered accurately in the target language?

>>35786236
>How is the metaphor 'overwrought'?
I believe this was already discussed earlier in the thread.
>What if it's the exact equivalent of the 'overwrought' Japanese?
It's at the translator's stylistic discretion.
>And since when do translations delete 'overwrought' metaphors when they can be rendered accurately in the target language?
All the fucking time? Translations modify things much more than you probably realize. I speak regarding literary translation of course.

>>35786273
>I believe this was already discussed earlier in the thread.
It wasn't really. Just explain what's overwrought about >>35784666. Shouldn't be that difficult. But that's the thing. Now we start discussing whether the metaphor was bad enough to get deleted. Opposing views will emerge. Some will say yes, others will say no. Why not just give a loyal translation and let the reader decide? Why should Moogy try to be better than Narahara? Narahara's taste in metaphors is rooted in his personal experience as a reader, Japanese citizen, swordsman, lover of language and whatnot. Why interfere with his personal vision? Why this assumption of superiority? Sorry Narahara, your metaphor is overwrought. I will delete it. Click. Let me just correct your prose style. Click. This metaphor was a little too unusual for my taste. I will replace your creation with my improved version. Click. Kneel before your new savior. Click. This is just hybris. And sooner or later it will go terribly wrong.

>>35786097
Look up textractor

>>35786805
Leave him alone. Makoto and Moogy are the greatest localization pair in existence and they can do absolutely no wrong. Even the most minuscule of objections to their localization methods shall be swiftly met by the mightiest zealots of the Cope Defense Force. Unable to accept any form of criticism levied at the idols they worship, these brave souls work tirelessly in taking every opportunity before them to spew their copy-pasted ideology and propagate their mindless circlejerk. They are minions; their cries of denial, cope, and justification repeat ad infinitum like broken records comprised entirely of either delusion or bad faith.

Go back to Twitter Gambs

>>35786805
All of you idiots are overthinking one sentence out of context. Literary translation requires the translator to tap into their creative juices and manifest their own rhythm or music, which is frequently intuitive. Minute changes in metaphor could be done entirely out of intuition in relation to the wider sound sense of the scene, metrical beat, and what came before/after. Perhaps he changed it to continue the consonance and assonance of the preceding sentences, develop alliteration, etc... Who the fuck knows. Those are the tradeoffs in attempting to get prose-feel down correctly and not have it read robotically. All of this wrangling over scant bits of text is autism until we get the text as a whole.

>>35786805
As long as you take translation as a personal insult against the author then you'll never be able to have a rational discussion about the issue.

>>35774883
Someone is indeed working on it, but I'm not at liberty to say who.

>>35789306
They don't care how the text reads in English. They only think of singular sentences as they exist in a void. They don't conceive as sentences as structures that exist in relation to other sentences in context.

>>35789430
Is it getting an official release?

>>35789431
Strawman.

>>35789494
No, it's a fan translation.

>>35789430
>I'm not at liberty to say who
Then no one is working on it.

>>35789430
Is it you, Hata?

>>35789306
>>35789366
>>35789431
No arguments, lol. Just appeals to authority and implicating nebulous reasons for the translation that are not knowable (the ways of the lord are inscrutable). Just give a good justification for >>35784666. That's all. I will accept it, maybe I'm wrong. You can google the context for the sentence.

Btw, one can also easily criticize >>35784204. They changed the syntax and invented the last part of the sentence, giving it a different flow and tone. The original is more laconic, restrained. It's an observation coming from respect and admiration. The new syntax with its crescendo makes it suddenly more emphatic, ending like an expression of deep sympathy and affection. Again, why invent stuff? Narahara's authorial voice seems to be based more on restraint and laconism. This invention of "and keep right on walking" is a little cheesy, overly emotional. It gives the English sentence a more rounded flow, but at the price of changing its original voice. It doesn't even make much sense, why would she have to "keep right on walking" after beating something down? Again I see no necessity for this invention. Why not just translate what the guy come up with? Why add your own ideas where it's not even necessary? Why this attempt to improve and correct the original? I honestly don't get it. It's not like this sentence couldn't have been translated by just sticking to the original.

>>35789430
>>35789609
>fan trad
>i'm not at liberty to say who
Fuck off ESL

>>35792952
Why do you care so much if you've already read it? Let the EOPs have their inferior version.

>>35792952
>Just give a good justification for >>35784666.
The reason that post gives is the reason, though I would use a term other than 'weird' to describe it. I think a good editor would have modified it. I don't care as much about the second example so I'll be brief.
>It gives the English sentence a more rounded flow
Reason enough, frankly. Japanese itself tends to be laconic due to its grammatical structure. English is not.
>ending like an expression of deep sympathy and affection.
I don't see anything in it that would clearly distinguish it from "respect and admiration" as you stated.
>why would she have to "keep right on walking" after beating something down?
It indicates a strength of direction, of not being thwarted by adversity.

>>35781148
>>35784204
These two changes convinced me the translation will be good.

>>35792952
Isn't this the scene where that blue haired chick first appears in a chuuni fashion and is walking towards them like a cowboy appearing in the distance? So isn't the context that she looks like the type of person who will steamroll over anything in her way, not just beat them down? If you left it as just her beating stones that came her way that doesn't even make sense in English. What does that mean? She looks like the type who is strong enough to cut stones in half? She looks like a body builder? She looks aggressive? She hates stones? The 'keep right on walking' narrows down the meaning to the realm of willpower, which is clearly what is being expressed in the picture. And isn't the narrator in this context a teenager? Your "original is more laconic and restrained" reeks more of a Western bias that exoticizes Japanese aesthetics as one of overt simplicity and some Zen shit. Plain orientalism that is applied frequently to all sorts of 'evaluations' of Japanese works. An overcompensation based on an Empire of Signs as Roland Barthes puts it. You're the one making shit up while clearly not knowing or remembering the implicit context of the scene. I bet you're the type that thinks Yasunari Kawabata should be translated in the bloodless overtly formal style that the current translation uses where, in order to try and capture Japanese 'restraint' and 'aesthetics', the lines of dialogue are all ironed out into the same bland formality. Your critique is just as nebulous and emotional.

Happy now, fags?

>>35794295
To be honest I would have preferred slightly thinner text boxes but just with smaller font (fuck sightlets). But this is fine too. I'm sure I'll get used to it.

>>35793945
Because no one else is saying it and because I'm interested in counter-arguments. My Japanese isn't perfect, maybe I'm missing something. But as far as I can see, the two examples are not good translations.
They both change the original meaning.
They both do so without necessity.
And in both cases the change is inferior to the original meaning.

>>35794115
>The reason that post gives is the reason, though I would use a term other than 'weird' to describe it. I think a good editor would have modified it.
This isn't much of an explanation. So the original image of the subaquatic scales is unusual. And that's why you want it to be removed? Why? What if the image was intended to be unusual? Are you not interested in what the author wrote?
>Reason enough, frankly. Japanese itself tends to be laconic due to its grammatical structure. English is not.
Why would a more rounded flow justify distorting the tone of the original? There was no necessity for constructing the emphatic crescendo.
>I don't see anything in it that would clearly distinguish it from "respect and admiration" as you stated.
Then you seem to be missing the contrasting effects of the syntactical differences.
>It indicates a strength of direction, of not being thwarted by adversity.
Ok, but why was it necessary to additionally invent this part of the sentence?

>>35794217
>If you left it as just her beating stones that came her way that doesn't even make sense in English.
Only if you ignore the context. You say this yourself:
>The 'keep right on walking' narrows down the meaning to the realm of willpower, which is clearly what is being expressed in the picture.
Why was it necessary to additionally invent this part of the sentence? What justifies changing the syntax to an emotional crescendo not present in the original? Why the added sentence if it's already expressed in the image?
>Your "original is more laconic and restrained" reeks more of a Western bias that exoticizes Japanese aesthetics as one of overt simplicity and some Zen shit. Plain orientalism that is applied frequently to all sorts of 'evaluations' of Japanese works. An overcompensation based on an Empire of Signs as Roland Barthes puts it.
Are you really not seeing the contrasting effects of the syntactical differences? Of course restraint and laconism are possible effects of Japanese. You can phrase things so that different levels of emphasis and emotive accentuation are expressed. How is this observation orientalism, lmao. Am I now a colonialist?
>You're the one making shit up while clearly not knowing or remembering the implicit context of the scene.
How does the context justify the distortion of meaning?
>I bet you're the type that thinks Yasunari Kawabata should be translated in the bloodless overtly formal style that the current translation uses where, in order to try and capture Japanese 'restraint' and 'aesthetics', the lines of dialogue are all ironed out into the same bland formality.
I just don't like translations to delete metaphors without necessity and tonally modify sentences where rendering the original is perfectly possible.
>Your critique is just as nebulous and emotional.
Where is my critique nebulous and emotional? Also, why did you ignore the first sentence with the lake?

>>35794793
>This isn't much of an explanation. So the original image of the subaquatic scales is unusual.
Unusual does not mean good. This is why editors exist.
>Why would a more rounded flow justify distorting the tone of the original?
I dispute that it distorted the tone.
>Then you seem to be missing the contrasting effects of the syntactical differences.
I'm not. I explained what it means, which you responded to here:
>Ok, but why was it necessary to additionally invent this part of the sentence?
To make the sentence more well-rounded in English, without any distortion. Hope that answers your question now.

>>35794857
>Unusual does not mean good.
So when a metaphor is unusual you want it to be removed from the translation? Man, I think you just won this argument. You didn't really answer my questions though.

>>35794857
Begging the question:
In classical rhetoric and logic, begging the question or assuming the conclusion is an informal fallacy that occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it.

>>35794793
I'll throw you a bone and tell you specifically what I think is wrong with the lake metaphor. I think it overextends and in doing so ends up creating a redundancy of expression when rendered in English. The original metaphor of the unchanging surface of the lake is not problematic. But it continues with "beneath the surface of the water," which extends the metaphor into the next sentence. This causes two problems: 1) it creates, as the other anon stated, a incongruous image of the scales being underwater, and 2) is a redundant expression of "beneath the surface." You could simply say "beneath the surface", with no water involved in any sense anywhere in the sentence, and the meaning would be the same, because "beneath the surface" in English is already an idiom that notes the actuality of a circumstance in contradiction to its appearance. So there's no reason for the metaphor to extend into "beneath the surface of the water." Perhaps this is just an issue with English, due to the common "beneath the surface" idiom. Or perhaps writing that way is acceptable in Japanese, but in literary English writing it is not and an editor would help polish it. Now, in modifying it, you can either change the lake metaphor, or change the "beneath the surface of the water" continuation. But I'm not sure how you could change the latter as the core of the sentence is the contradiction of actuality and appearance. And removing the "of the water" phrase would not actually eliminate the problem as it would still seem linked to the lake. Changing the lake to something else (statues) allows "beneath the surface" to stand on its own as an English idiom without any lake/water antecedent, preserves the sense of the sentence, and eliminates the poor imagery regarding the scales, as they are now their own distinct metaphor.

>>35795152
(cont.) Another possible solution would be to change the scales to something else, but I'm not sure what would work, and it would still leave the redundant "beneath the surface of the water." Going with "statues" or something to replace the "lake" seems like a good choice to me.

>>35795331
(cont.) I also think "statues" in particular is fitting since they do quite literally look like statues (just look at the image >>35781148 ); they're in their armor and thus an observer would not even see human movement like breath or blinking.

>>35795152
The problem I have with your analysis is the assumption that the subaquatic scales constitute "poor imagery" and that this image has therefore to be removed. I was the other anon you mentioned, and as I said, I prefer to read the original's weirdness. What if the image was exactly intended this way? What if it was supposed to be strange and unusual? What if it refers to a Japanese myth I'm not aware of? Why the need to eliminate the strangeness and make it normal? Why do you prefer a normalized, ordinary sentence instead of what the author really wrote? Other reasons were already mentioned:

- The image provides a striking contrast between the warriors fighting to death and the tranquility and beauty of a still lake.
- This contrast is also a classical trope of Japanese literature.
- The image of the lake's still surface is more expressive and lyrical than mere statues.
- It establishes the contrast between "surface" and "depth", on which the whole sentence is built on.
- It is what the author wanted to write.

So I still don't see a good justification for eliminating this metaphor. As for the redundancy, one can simply write:

>To an observer, the two warriors might seem as unchanging as the still surface of a lake. Beneath the surface, however, the scales of victory and defeat, glory and disgrace, are already tipping in one side's favor.

>>35795152
>And removing the "of the water" phrase would not actually eliminate the problem as it would still seem linked to the lake.
There is no problem, it's supposed to be linked to the lake and the entire reason 水面 was used instead of using any other Japanese expression for "in actuality." Removing the "of the water" part does enough to reduce how redundant it sounds in English while still allowing the reader to make the connection of that expression to the previous line, as you can in Japanese. There's no reason to change it.

>>35795538
You go down the slippery slope of eating up what an egotistical translator changing whatever they think is more fitting at an absurdly low threshold feels like writing at this point and you're not even reading the original. This line was nowhere near the level of needing to be rewritten and in doing so it actually takes away from the original's intent in using two phrases that connect to each other, which "beneath the surface" does to a lake in English too without detracting from the expression, in fact, it adds to it. You could also say that they look like scarecrows or mannequins, but that's not what was originally written, it doesn't matter if you can pull out some random word that's also fitting to the picture when there's nothing wrong with the original in the first place, it's just Moogy's fanfiction.

>>35796570
>The problem I have with your analysis is the assumption that the subaquatic scales constitute "poor imagery" and that this image has therefore to be removed.
It is poor imagery. I imagine it was unintentional and he just ran with the lake metaphor, which is understandable.
>What if the image was exactly intended this way? What if it was supposed to be strange and unusual?
I think that would impugn the writer's ability. The image of underwater scales is meaningless. Being underwater has no relevance or impact upon anything. Again I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. The fact people are discussing underwater scales would probably embarrass him if he knew about it.
>What if it refers to a Japanese myth I'm not aware of?
Then it's irrelevant because you don't know what it is.
>Why the need to eliminate the strangeness and make it normal? Why do you prefer a normalized, ordinary sentence instead of what the author really wrote?
You're starting to get into the territory again of implying that the author is being insulted by this. I don't care to have this kind of emotive discussion. My priority is to have a work that reads like natural, well-written English.
>So I still don't see a good justification for eliminating this metaphor.
Learn Japanese if it bothers you so much. I've explained to you the mindset and the sort of reasons behind how translation of this nature works. I can't make you like it.
>As for the redundancy, one can simply write:
I already answered this. In the end it's up to the translator's intuition and discretion. I imagine he had similar thoughts to me. Either way my take is fully reasonable.
>>35796590
>There is no problem, it's supposed to be linked to the lake
Reread my post, because that's the entire problem.
>and in doing so it actually takes away from the original's intent in using two phrases that connect to each other
Which again is the problem.
>You could also say that they look like scarecrows or mannequins
Nonsense. You aren't having a rational discussion at this point.
>it's just Moogy's fanfiction.
And there we have it. Let it be known to (both?) of you that I won't be responding to this again. I've already typed more than I ever cared to, and it's been completely wasted on swine.

>>35797855
>and it's been completely wasted on swine.
On second thought saying this make me a bit of a hypocrite, doesn't it? Either way I feel like I've wasted my effort only to be have someone start babbling about fanfiction in the end. Farewell.

>>35797957
*tips fedora*

>>35797855
So you typed all that and then decided to call us both "swine"? Seems a bit strange, but okay, lol. You also just ignored all the reasons I listed invalidating your preferred translation. I still see no reasonable justification for eliminating the metaphor. Saying it was unintentional is just your speculation. I just find it funny to see someone so eager to read what Makoto or Moogy invented rather than what the actual author of the novel wrote.

>>35798283
>So you typed all that and then decided to call us both "swine"?
I actually copied both of your posts into the post box and replied as I read it, so I didn't get mad until the end.
>I just find it funny to see someone so eager to read what Makoto or Moogy invented rather than what the actual author of the novel wrote.
Lol

>>35797855
>Then It's irrelevant because you don't know what it is.
This is completely incorrect and says a lot about your lack of integrity. "One guy doesn't know what it is, so let's remove it!"
What about everyone else? Even if only 1% of readers would've known it, those people get an inferior experience.

>>35799482
Show me the mythology of the underwater scales and I'll take your conjecture seriously.

Literalfags need to learn Japanese so they can fully understand the work without anything being lost.
EOPs need to accept that something will get lost in translation for it to be readable for the audience.
The writers won't care because they get their paycheck.

And all is right in the world.

>>35799670
Just a second ago you played along with the conjecture and made an argument doing so, which I said is a bad argument. Are you stupid?

>>35801961
Your speculation is meaningless so I gave you a meaningless response. If you're just going to make shit up then so will I.

>>35804570
>If you're just going to make shit up then so will I.
Don't worry, Moogy and Makoto have already got you covered.

Dote Up A Cat update

https://mega.nz/file/qkkn1KAK#TtBqkpry_JrwE6CEQmtkf7nX7YrG-i2MUzGawl0XlWQ

Somebody managed to repackage my script into an actual patch. Just drag drop SEEN.txt in.

Gave the H scenes a go but it's not happening soz.

>>35804570
I'm a different person and have never speculated anything, nor did the other person speculate, you apparently didn't even understand his point or my objection, get lost rewriting liberalfag.

>>35799670
>Show me the mythology of the underwater scales and I'll take your conjecture seriously.
By this logic the burden of proof is always on the writing to provide evidence that it's not meaningless. If there's no proof and a metaphor is accused of looking meaningless, it will just get deleted. That's the Orwellian approach to translation without the presumption of meaning.

>>35807635
Bringing up a fictitious scenario has no bearing on the real one. Again I think Narahara Ittetsu would be embarrassed to see everyone arguing about his "underwater scales" imagery. The fact this is still going on is laughable.
>>35808199
Don't put words in my mouth. The burden would be upon the translator to understand the reference if one existed.

>>35808683
I thought you said farewell bro

>>35808683
You said you want the metaphor removed because you say it's meaningless. You don't consider that you might be missing something. People miss subtext and references all the time. Your position is based on your illusory feeling of certainty. You want others to provide evidence that the image is meaningful for it not to be removed. So yes, you put the burden of proof on the writing instead of assuming your own fallibility.

>>35808902
>You don't consider that you might be missing something. People miss subtext and references all the time.
Then fucking prove that it's a reference to something. You can't of course, which is why you can only appeal to hypothetical nonsense like this.
>So yes, you put the burden of proof on the writing instead of assuming your own fallibility.
The burden is on the *translator* and he clearly found nothing there since he replaced it. If you think he missed something then prove it. Go ahead.

>>35808986
I don't have to prove it. You want the accused to prove his innocence? You have to prove that the metaphor is meaningless. That's what the presumption of meaning is. But you cannot prove that it's meaningless, because that's impossible. Context always produces meaning. That's why your position is based on arrogance. The metaphor has all kinds of possible meanings. It's open to very different ways of interpreting it. You are the one who wants to eliminate it without even demonstrating that the metaphor is meaningless.

>>35809213
I wish you could step back for a moment and look at yourself, arguing about a (clearly unintentional) image of a set of underwater weighing scales and trying to defend its supposed meaning, even when you can't even say what that meaning might be, and realize how silly and retarded you are.

>>35809213
>You are the one who wants to eliminate it without even demonstrating that the metaphor is meaningless.
It's already been eliminated, by someone who has more knowledge about the subject than you. Go find Makoto on IRC somewhere and tell him you think it's a mythological reference or whatever other bullshit you're using to cope with.

>>35809259
I could equally ask you to step back and realize your arrogance. You don't realize that your feeling of certainty about the "clearly unintentional" image is illusory and irrational? You know what people have all been certain about while being wrong? You want the accused to be executed without demonstrating guilt, because you feel certain they are guilty.

>>35809411
It's not me you need to be calling arrogant, you know? Since you want to trade in hypotheticals, I'll raise you one far more important that you've apparently not considered, which is that Makoto may have had correspondence with Narahara Ittetsu, who was still working at Nitroplus when the translation was started. Makoto is the one you're trying to impugn, and he's the one who would know far better than you about any aspect of the text you could bring up. Would you still like to go down this path of appealing to hypotheticals?

>>35809510
If Makoto has received the author's personal approval for removing the metaphor, then the problem would obviously be resolved. What wouldn't be resolved are any of your failed attempts to establish a reasonable argument. So this sudden change of direction seems a bit pointless if it's for the sake of saving your Orwellian approach to translation.

>>35809650
You're the one who would like to discuss hypothetical matters, so I've indulged you in that. Perhaps you should not presume, in your arrogance and ignorance of the translation process, that Makoto did not have a good reason for making his decisions. We can both play this silly game you know? This is what happens you decide to stop having a reasonable discussion.

>>35809702
Engaging in hypothetical scenarios is a common practice in almost every discussion. What's wrong with that? Does this sudden change of direction mean that you have given up your previous argument for removing the metaphor because it looks meaningless to you?

>>35809813
I hold to everything I said previously. You did not refute what I said but made an appeal to something hypothetical, unknowable, and which you could not demonstrate in any capacity.

>>35809813
And further, the one who actually has access to the information you're speculating about, is the one who removed the metaphor. It's funny, don't you think?

>>35809850
Then what is your feeling of certainty about the "clearly unintentional" image based on? How can you be sure that the image is clearly unintentional? How can you know that you aren't missing the metaphor's true meaning?

>>35809962
>Then what is your feeling of certainty about the "clearly unintentional" image based on?
I stated earlier that I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he simply made a poor stylistic choice. It's a wording that seems interesting at first but once you really think about it, it becomes absurd, as this discussion has illustrated.
>How can you know that you aren't missing the metaphor's true meaning?
I'm talking to a brick wall.

>>35809962
To add, if the text were translated literally I probably would not have pondered it in this way. I only thought about it because it was altered and I was curious as to why. So the fact that Makoto changed it leads me to believe he seriously considered the line, more than a normal reader would. Be glad you have a translator that actually cares this much, especially considering what medium this is.

>>35810005
Why aren't you answering you the question though? How can you be sure that the author made a poor stylistic choice? How can you be sure that it wasn't an intentional stylistic choice?

>>35810079
Do you think humans are incapable of judging an author's stylistic success or failure? Is the only thing that matters their intention? Is it possible for something to be written poorly? If he wanted to deliberately create an image of a set of underwater scales then I would have to question his writing ability. There are more reasonable ways of understanding it that do not require this.

>>35810110
As I said, you want the metaphor removed because you think it's meaningless. You don't consider that you might be missing something. People miss subtext and references all the time. Your position is based on your illusory feeling of certainty. You want others to provide evidence that the image is meaningful for it not to be removed. So yes, you put the burden of proof on the writing instead of assuming your own fallibility.

>>35810132
You can stop with this now, as I've thoroughly demolished it. The person in the best position to actually know removed it, so your ignorant speculation is meaningless. You don't actually know anything about the subject and are just blubbering nothing.

>>35810170
So your entire position is an appeal to authority? The way you are certain that the image is clearly unintentional you are now certain that Makoto and Moogy made the correct decision? That's a somewhat weak semi-religious stance while absolving yourself from any further responsibility of independent thinking.

>>35810252
You've appealed to uncertainty, to not knowing. But the people who worked on the game are actually in a position to know firsthand. You aren't. You don't know anything about it, and that's your argument. That you're ignorant and don't know shit so therefore it should be left alone. I'm not going to argue about it anymore (again). For any other posters who are worried about the translation I remind you of this >>35809510.

Someone make a post about some other topic please.

>>35810504
Let's summarize then and end it:
Your position was based on a feeling of certainty (belief of holding the truth). You were certain that the image is clearly unintentional and should be removed.
My position was based on a feeling of uncertainty (belief of not knowing the truth). I can't know for sure what this image means or if it's unintentional and want it preserved.
You never managed to explain what your feeling of certainty was based on and how you could know that you weren't missing something (subtext, a reference, its aesthetic function). When further pressed you said you trusted Makoto and Moogy. You also ignored the multiple reasons I listed here >>35796570 for preserving the original image.
I just hope that the examples discussed are exceptions and that the rest of the translation gravitates more towards preserving the original meaning. That's all I guess.

>>35810535
Help

>>35810535
>>35812186
Some good boys prepare remaster release of Demonbane, with ps2 additional content. Let's hope it won't take too long.

>>35812280
I noticed that on VNDB. I tried to read JAST's release a few years back and couldn't get it to work properly, so this may give me an occasion to actually read the game.

>>35812186
If this discussion was sparked by just one preview image, I dread to think what will happen when it gets released.

>>35812369
Hopefully people will have calmed down by then. I'll probably avoid 4chan until I'm done reading it.

>>35812460
Wtf but didn't Gambs say that moogy edited out the offensive stuff? Gambs lied?

>>35813662
Moogy's tweet made me think he wouldn't remove anything. For one he said that he probably wouldn't, but more important is the fact that he was actually concerned about presenting the work honestly. If he was a true believer SJW cultist he would have just changed it, been fully confident he was doing the right thing, and either not said anything or bragged about it.

Now that anime is crazy popular in the west, does /jaypee/ think VNs are going to get increasingly popular as well?

>>35815295
Anime is popular because it's easy to consume, VNs are not.

>>35815313
It didn't seem to bother them with shit like Doki Doki, you think it's just the length of them stopping it?

>>35815327
Yes.

The more I think about it, the more I understand a simple fact: being a yurichad is the best thing you can possibly do to learn Japanese. Consider arch-JOP Moogy: yup, he's a yurichad. Me? I'm a yurichad. My friend who's a yurichad is making great progress too, and he's in his first year still. But why is being a yurichad so good, you ask? Consider Hanahira: possibly the easiest visual novel to read ever. The perfect starter VN, in fact. But look then at what the failures, the morons, the ones who liketh not yuri say: "boring", "how can anyone read it"... you get the picture, do you not? But for a real YURICHAD, Hanahira is a fucking masterpiece of cute, fluffy yuri. From Hanahira we can draw a straight line to the based as fuck yuri nukige series Sono Hanabira ni Kuchidzuke wo. This too is a great beginner VN series, and the difficulty is a perfect little step up after breaking your teeth on the gentle shores of Hanahira. But what then, you ask? Well guess what — there is So Much Yuri out there, you cannot fucking believe it, and very little of it is translated, least of all translated well enough for anyone with a hint of prose standards to read. Thus the YURICHAD is compelled to read all his yuri content in Japanese, just as God intended when he made girls gay for each other. Some of my earliest VNs read were yuri doujin VNs, like 80% of the light novels I've read have been yuri, yuri got me to branch out into manga... I'm reading Soukou Akki Muramasa right now, and you know who I thank for that? Fucking Mai and Reo, Sara and Kaede, Adachi and Shimamura, Sorawo and Toriko, Touko and Yuu. If you could only become a YURICHAD, you would see the light. You would learn Japanese. 以上

>>35815327
DDLC gets to the dumb shock content very quickly and then it ends within 2 hours. On top of all of that, it's free. It's tailor-made for easy streaming. Even ignoring eroge something like Higurashi is about 50 times as long.

>>35815903
Sounds good, but most people here are still too lazy to do that

>>35815903
as a yurichad who's N1 I can confirm. never actually read Hanahira though. reading FLOWERS right now because I heard Ayaneru is in it

>>35815903
I read a yuri game on a whim recently (Kudan) and it was terrible so no thanks.

>>35817140
>FLOWERS
Shizumu's style is not something I'd recommend reading in general to anybody who barely started learning Japanese. It's borderline purple prose. As N1, you know. But as yurichad, there shouldn't be any problem.

>>35779710
>>35780120
Djangos fine, its butchs last good work

>>35788189
moogy is a troon, and hes getting brainwashed by twitter all day. he cant stop beating off to yuri and hates anything hetero

Was Moogy an editor for Saya, Kikokugai or Hanachirasu? If he wasn't, I'm pretty worried because he might be as bad as the other editors in the business (like those nekonyan retards) judging by his Twitter

>>35821259
Why can't trannies accept they are mentally ill and heterosexuality is basic biology

>>35821618
Because their entire existence is based on the idea that everything to do with gender and sexual orientation is a social construct. Even if they know it deep down they can't accept it because they think it would completely invalidate them.

>>35817140
>>35818298
Flowers was written by the same person who wrote this turd >>35817955 so I'm sure it's terrible too.

>>35821533
I don't know about Kikokugai, but he was indeed the editor for Saya and Hanachirasu.

>>35821533
>As with Hanachirasu and Saya no Uta, Phil was the sole translator for Muramasa, and I was the sole editor.
https://twitter.com/moogy0/status/1415743530203557890

>>35821126
That frog...

>>35821126
>its butchs last good work
He's still making his best work though.

>>35822516
I like TBF as much as the next guy but let's be real, his best works are Saya and Kikokugai.

>>35823437
I'll agree with Saya, but TBF feels like the story Urobuchi wanted Kikokugai to be, both of them being Wuxia and all. I think Nitroplus wanted it to be a cyberpunk story though.

>>35823534
Uh what? Their stories are absolutely nothing alike.

>>35823437
Also Madoka and 1st Psycho-Pass.
Btw, the third season of TBF is final or what?

>>35824265
>Btw, the third season of TBF is final or what?
Definitely not. There will probably be another movie then season 4.

>>35823437
Saya is his best, Thunderbolt is his second, Gaim is his third. Nothing else is near those three imo.

>>35815903
What is the yuri kamige?

>>35829764
Flowers

>>35829764
No such thing

>>35830089
Apparently Flowers is better than Key stuff.

>>35830697
Isn't everything better than Key stuff

>>35829764
Dear My Abyss

>>35830089
>>35830697
Lol no

The problem with yuri is that lesbian sex is the most boring, uninteresting shit imaginable to the point that I doubt whether it should even qualify as sex. It's only interesting if there's some kind of fetish component, but yuri games are overwhelmingly vanilla.

>>35830697
Yes, it's true.

>>35830697
>yuri
>better than anything
Good joke.

>>35834192
Did you read it?

>>35840092
New thread up with the updates for this week