/jp/ - Otaku Culture

It hasn't been dispoven though.
If anything it's getting more weight.

Velociraptors did it.

>>3288013

>>3288013
Hopefully they state it in red/gold next game then.

You guys must be retarded.
Battler POV wasn't trustable in ep5, otherwise it would mean that Kinzo was still alive too.
And the big reunion scene with Erika where we saw Kanon and Shannon together was seen from Battler POV, not Erika.

If anything the fact that Kanon and Shannon appear coincidentally in front of Battler for the first time in ep 5, the one game where Battler became really unreliable, put more weight to the theory that something is going on with them.

>>3288029
I say it was trustable. You can disagree all you want, but it was all true. If we trusted his POV only in the last 4 episodes, we'll trust it for the remaining episodes.

>>3288038
FUCK YEAH THAT MEAN ZOMBIE KINZO KILLED THEM ALL
I KNEW IT

>>3288029
everyone on the island was in that room.

everyone.

SURELY THEY'D NOTICE THAT MYSTERIOUS CULPRIT X WAS IN THE ROOM.

>>3288043
Once again, seen from Battler POV.
What happened? I don't know, but his POV isn't trustable and therefore the theory hasn't been disproven at all.

>>3288043
>>3288043
battler assumed that one of them was shannon/kanon
so from his point of view they were kanon/shannon
case closed, Shannon = Kanon still works

Kanon = Kanon

I know this sounds hard to believe, but I think I'm on to something here.

If the best anti-fantasy can come up with is Shannon = Kanon and Kanon = Shannon than I rather believe in witches and bullshit.

Seriously fuck Kanon = Shannon.

It's a bad theory and even if its proven, were just gonna get "There are no more then 16 people on this island + Erika"

Since Knox is in effect we should be able to make some better theories. etc

1. The criminal must be someone mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to follow.
2. All supernaural or preternatural agencies are ruled out as a matter of course.
3. Not more than one secret room or passage is allowable.
4. No hitherto undiscovered poisons may be used, nor any appliance which will need a long scientific explanation at the end.
5. No Chinaman must figure in the story.
6. No accident must ever help the detective, nor must he ever have an unaccountable intuition which proves to be right.
7. The detective must not himself commit the crime.
8. The detective must not light on any clues which are not instantly produced for the inspection of the reader.
9. The stupid friend of the detective, the Watson, must not conceal any thoughts which pass through his mind; his intelligence must be slightly, but very slightly, below that of the average reader.
10. Twin brothers, and doubles generally, must not appear unless we have been duly prepared for them.

>>3288086
>2. All supernaural or preternatural agencies are ruled out as a matter of course.

Battler instawins.

>>3288147
beato instaloses

>>3288147
>5. No Chinaman must figure in the story.
There is Erika who working as an outsider deux ex machina, your reasoning is invalid

>>3288142
>>3288147
>>3288153
Battler is Beato
Battler instawins
Beato instaloses
Battler/Beato both wins and loses. He dies endlessly in the purgatory of his own creation in a rock slide engineered by the servants he coerced into a series of murders as his own furniture.

TRUE END

>>3288068
I don't even understand how Kanon = Shanon is even important.

So what if they're the same person?
Wouldn't a person with multiple personalitys count as two people?

Hasn't it been said that there's 17/18/19 people on the island?
Does that count people who consider themselves furniture? Since that's pretty much always Genji and Kanon, I thought that gave more room for more people to be there.

>>3288315
Maybe they just haven't come out of the closet yet.

>>3288160
Werika isn't Chinese

>>3288160

That rule was omitted in Umineko. And I think the one about supernatural just said that it couldn't help the detective.

Rokkenjima Syndrome, butterflies, and a fuckton of trap doors.

>>3288368
You are missing my point

Fuck this, witches did it.

>>3288160
Erika is not the culprit.

>>3288160
>>3288411
The "chinaman" usually help the protagonist.
You must have seen some shitty movies where the main character is stuck in some problem and goes to an oriental shop out of nowhere owned by some asiatic who give him some encens/mysterious object or other shits like this who help him solve his problem.

That's what this rule is about, A mystery shouldn't have some deus ex machina shit who appear without any mention whatsoever and solve everything.

>>3288038
Then goat men eating kinzo and genji are real.

>6 people: Kinzo, Genji, SHANNON, KANNON, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!
Red text confirming the deaths of the 1st twilight in EP2.

>>3288457
But what about Kanon?

>>3288473
>6 people: Kinzo, Genji, SHANNON, KANON, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!
sorry about that

>>3288475
So Kinzo was alive up until First Twilight in EP2?

>>3288486
Kinzo was always dead as stated by the golden truth.

>>3288498
>>3288475

Either one of you is lying, or red text only applies to the game board its stated in relation to.

You can't kill 6 people in the first twilight if one of them is already dead.

>>3288504
Kinzo is dead before the game, it doesn't matter which game board it is.

>>3288504
It doesn't say killed, it says dead. Kinzo was dead. The red text was telling the truth.

>>3288508
So EP2 first twilight is botched,
so it can't be magic,
because six were not lifted up as sacrifice.

So much for anti-mystery.

The Knox BS is so beyond retarded I don't know what to make of it...are we being trolled by Beato again? That's the only explination that makes sense. So let me get this straight.....supernatural agencies are strictly forbidden, but the SOLE SOURCE AND AUTHORITY OF THE ACTUAL TRUTH IS PROVIDED BY A DAMN WITCH USING MAGICAL WORDS!!!!! If the magical truth statements are forbidden by a higher power, then wtf are we even doing here debating what the red truth means?

>>3288543
Dying, slowly, under 200t of landslide.

Animefag here (also spoiled a lot here).
I think Metaworld and physical world are actualy separate entities.
It will all end by Meta-Battler accepting Beatrice (nop, not dead) as human, but not a witch. This forces Beatrice into real world, but as normal human, but not witch. This way, she returns to Rokenjima before 1st EP. Then she kills everyone using tricks and remains of her magic and shows before everyone in the end, completly stripped of her magic powers. Then thanks to contract with now dead Kinzo she claims all property of Ushiromyia to herself..
But metaworld still continues, because Battler is never going to accept Beatrice as a real witch, in an endless recursion of more and more bizzare magical recreations of original Rokkenjima witch murder case..

Yeah its total bullshit..

>>3288543
>the SOLE SOURCE AND AUTHORITY OF THE ACTUAL TRUTH IS PROVIDED BY A DAMN WITCH USING MAGICAL WORDS!!!!!
Actually no, it's merely provided by an omniscient narrator. You're trying to make her fit in the world by making her a witch with magic, but there is not indication she's anything but a literary framing device.

>>3288086
Man, if there had been interwebs back in Agatha Christie's time Roger Ackroyd would probably have been considered Knox rule 1 trolling.

>>3288632
>Roger Ackroyd
Actually there was a shitstorm regarding exactly that, even without the net.

The new theory is "Beatrice III"

>>3288558
Problem, Battler?

>>3288647
Beatrice three?

It's funny how so few people in this thread have actually played episode 5.

5%

>>3289815

>>3289871
There are only 17 people on the island.
+ erika in EP 5
Explain how the mysterious beatrice can be there without the shannon = kanon theory.

>>3289927
Someone like Genji might not count as human.

>>3289927
Doesn't have to be Shannon = kanon, can simply be Beatrice 3 = one of the 17

Rokkenjima only consists of the area above ground.

>>3289992
Unpossible! When Beato talks about Rokkenjima, she considers it as the game board. No one can leave he game board during the game, it's a closed space. In ep 3 and 4 people wander around in the tunnels below. Thus the underground is counted as the Rokkenjima game board too.

Jessica = Beatrice III
Nanjo put Kanon's key into Jessica's pocket in episode 2.

>>3290057
But if she dies early then why do the murders continue?

>>3290153
everyone wants kinzo's gold.

>>3289871
I wouldn't be surprised if that's the explanation for meta-beato

>>3290194
Except we know the murder spree is always due to Battler's sin, so it can't just be that

>>3290194
Maybe not just that.
It was made clear in Ep4 that there are people who are interested in Kinzo's collection of rare books. Rare enough to murder, perhaps? It might also explain the weird symbols - a communication between the accomplishes that only they understand.

>>3290222
Meta-Beato doesn't exist on the game board, and thus doesn't need to be explained. And outside she's just a metaphor for the process that leads to and includes the killings.

>>3290233
when is it proclaimed in red that battler's sin is the motive for every murder?

Hey /jp/, what if they key to figuring out the truth in Umineko is to not solely look at it as purely anti-fantasy or anti-mystery, but to use them both in a synergy that allows you to bypass any obstacle. If you can't break through with anti-fantasy, you use anti-mystery. If you can't break through with anti-mystery, you use anti-fantasy.

So if we look at what we have so far using anti-fantasy and the Knox commandments, we can only go so far. But what if we use anti-mystery as well, and treat the knox commandments only as mere suggestions? We could then hypothesize that we cannot reach the truth because the mystery is unsolvable due to clues we do not have, which leads us to another dead end. But if we use anti-fantasy, or mystery again, we'd have to conclude that we have been given all of the clues that we need. Which leads to only one conclusion about the "key" to solving umineko. We have been given the key, and we have not been given the key. If that makes any sense.

>>3290222
Meta-Beato is Beatrice 2. Piece-Beato is Beatrice 3. Meta-Beato and Piece-Beato have different personalities. Meta-Beato understood why Piece-Beato was so upset with Battler, but she didn't feel the same way.

>>3290268
if you use anti-mystery Beato wins. For Battler to win there has to be no magic.

>>3290268
>So if we look at what we have so far using anti-fantasy and the Knox commandments, we can only go so far
Well no. we can cook up mystery explanations for each murder, the only obstacle is there's still three episodes that can bring contradictions. The lack of details prevents us from making sure our explanations will always work, that's all. No need for anti-mystery.

Beatrice I = the one that gave Kinzo the gold and fell in love. Possible identity: Kumasawa but highly unlikely. Looks like Virgilia (uncomfirmed)

Beatrice II = Rosa's Beatrice who escape from Kuwadorian but died in the process. Looks like Meta-Beato.

Beatrice III (pony theory only) = Battler promised that he would rescue her but forgot (his possible sin), raped by Kinzo shortly after that (stated in EP2) which would probably make her the MASTERMIND behind all the murders. Looks like Meta-Beato in a High-School outfit (Battler sees her on the game board with this outfit first in EP2 and EP4)

This is what i think after the discussion we had a few days ago on /a/

>>3290289
Anti-mystery is not "LOL MAGIC". Anti-mystery is the essence of the red and blue truths talked about in ep 4, which is where a current truth or fact can be overwritten by new information. It refers to the fact that what appears to be a mystery may not be logically solvable. You're assuming that fantasy and anti-mystery are the same thing, which is horribly misguided.

>>3290321
Hey, guess what you just described. Anti-mystery. Because the mysteries are not logically solvable, they are no longer mysteries.

What will you do now Anonymouuuuuuuus? Come on, stop thinking like a third rate detective. Are you as incompetent as Erika?

>>3290268
But really, I think there is a key to solving everything. Battler sees it, Ange sees it too. We've probably seen it the entire time, but we haven't recognized it as such. I think the problem is that we are looking at it without "love". Anti-mystery doesn't necessarilly focus on the lack of a solvable event, but instead focuses on how easy it is for information and truth to change over time. Maybe the key has been presented to us, and if we look at it with "love", the key will change, and everything will become clear.

Jessica x Battler incest end
yes, or no?

>>3290391
>Hey, guess what you just described. Anti-mystery. Because the mysteries are not logically solvable, they are no longer mysteries
But, uh, no. What I said is all the mysteries are currently solvable with the info we have, and the only doubt comes from future info that may invalidate them. They are, so to speak, blue truths

>>3290391
Anti-mystery is the essence of the red and blue truths talked about in ep 4, which is where a current truth or fact can be overwritten by new information.
Nuh-uh. You have to understand the blue truths, even though named as such, are technically only hypotheses, not truths from an elementary logic point of view. That's why they can be overwritten. They're hypothesized as true until more precise facts can be gathered. There's nothing magical in it, it's elementary logic.

The red truths, on the other hand, are truths in the elementary logic sense. They don't get overwritten, they always stay valid even with new info. For example "there are at most 17 people" doesn't in fact overwrite "there are at most 18 people" in any way, the latter is still as true as ever. You won't find a single possible situation where "at most 17" is true but not "at most 18". The same is valid for all red truths.

The fact what we don't see Kanon togheter with Shannon before EP5 can easily be a coincidence. You faggots should worry more about the fact that Kannon's body is always fucking missing.

After all, he DID said that he was going to be the 0 on Beato's roulette...

>shannon = kannon

So you telling me that they're not brother and sister related at all?

>>3290497
>But, uh, no. What I said is all the mysteries are currently solvable with the info we have, and the only doubt comes from future info that may invalidate them. They are, so to speak, blue truths

Enjoy your Later Queen Problem, the very heart of Anti-mystery.

And I should have said something like the "plasticity of truths" discussed in 1998. My bad.

>>3290497
>the only doubt comes from future info that may invalidate them.
That's Anti-mystery!

"HEY, YOU GOT YOUR ANTI-FANTASY IN MY ANTI-MYSTERY"
"HEY, YOU GOT YOUR ANTI-MYSTERY IN MY ANTI-FANTASY"

>>3291009
she doesn't solve shit

>>3291027

So how is EP 6 gonna go?
Answers to EP 2 or 3 or 4?
Both Battler and Erika will survive till the 10th twilight being the last two alive I assume.

i'm betting that R7 will use the whole episode 6 for prove that Kanon and Shanon are not the killers. Shitstorm ensues.

>>3291102
There's no way kanon isn't a culprit. As much as it would be awesome if he bro'd it up with Battler to defeat anonymous other culprit.

>>3291107
my assumption is kanon kills only if beatrice doesn't act
he kills kumisawa and nanjo and tries to stop the murders in EP 2
and he kills the kids and hideyoshi in ep 5