/jp/ - Otaku Culture

You have already lost to the witch.

'sup beatrice

>>3094647
copy pasta?
Sure feel like I have read this before.

>>3094647
missed the rules that Beato set up

arguing with them is like arguing with fundamentalists

If it's not written in the book, it's not true! If you have proof it's only because god put it there to test your faith! etc.

Any argument you make will be ignored.

>>3094661

no

>>3094662

?

Battler just has to deny that magic was involved in the Rokkenjima incident.

>Either way, how can he say the murders are being done differently when he sees people being killed by magical beings?
Battler never sees such a thing. Beatrice shows meta Battler those scenes, but he can't believe anything she shows him, just what she says in red. And gameboard Battler never witnesses magic.

Seem like you understood shit/pressed ctrl all the way.

>>3094669
>>3094647
HAHAHAHA Up to your old tricks again, huh, Beatooooooo???

>I've read it all

No you haven't. Everything here is covered in episodes 1-4, their tea parties and the ????.

ITT OP has no idea how to pay attention to a plot.

>>3094647
>>3094669
Sure is furniture in here.

>>3094647
Beatrice posting as anonymous to throw us off eh? Won't work, sorry.

>>3094647
Get out fake witch.
You are not welcome here. Human ONRY.

I just got done with Umineko, but after seeing some of the theories, I'm guessing that I've looking Umineko the wrong way the whole time.

So everything that we're seeing, things that are obviously magic, don't actually happen, but are just made up by Beatrice? Only what the Battler within the game sees/hears, and what is said in Red can be taken as fact?

Is this right?

>>3094732
Pretty much yeah. Also events that take place before/after Oct. 4-5 are assumed to be correct as well.

>>3094741
>>3094741
No. You wouldnt believe in Ange summoning stakes and massacring everyone would you?

I just got done with Umineko, but after seeing some of the theories, I'm guessing that I've looking Umineko the wrong way the whole time.

So everything that we're seeing, things that are obviously magic and interactions between characters(such as JessicaxKanon), don't actually happen, but are just made up by Beatrice? Only what the Battler within the game sees/hears, and what is said in Red can be taken as fact?

Is this right?

Basically, unless a human spiked Battler's tea with LSD, the whole plot is full of shit OR witches exist.

However you try to explain it, Battler IS seeing into other dimensions, he's seen magic right in front of him, he's been killed and resurrected, he's SEEN flashbacks to years ago and there's some bizarre thing where words appear in red if they're true. All of those things are either magic or bullshit writing.

>>3094716

so how about that district 9 eh

>>3094753
You just got done with the game, and you didn't realise this till reading some theories? Don't you realise that Kinzo was already dead, yet we see him? You should already know events are fake from just reading.

>>3094741

Oh, okay. I feel like an idiot. I wish I would have realized this earlier, so I could have focused more on the mystery. I kind of suspected it when it was revealed that Kinzo's was already dead, but didn't know what to think of it.

>>3094747
I should have written that non-magic related scenes. Such as George and Shannon's relation ship, Ange talking with Okonogi and various other random people.

>>3094753
That's what they say, but then the whole "seeing dialogue in red" thing is essentially magic, the fact he DID die but then is oddly alive and seeing other events unfold. Beatrice isn't TELLING him what happened, she's showing him. He is SEEING all of that stuff, and he's not seeing it on a technological thing like a TV either.

Cool story Beato.

>>3094757
No idea.
Probably gonna watch it by end of this next week.
I will report back later and check if Alien and superior technology being is allowed.

>>3094768
Nice try Beato. Then why after 'seeing' that crazy magic battle in ep3, was there no aftermath or destruction of any sort?

>>3094755
You seem to not understand, so I'll make it simple.

Battler is not required to prove that magic does not exist. That is a Devil's Proof, there is no possible way he can prove magic is false. Just because magic is seemingly possible in Purgatory does not mean magic is possible, or happened on Rokkenjima.

Beatrice can show Meta-Battler anything she wants in the smoking room in Purgatory, it has absolutely zero impact on the claim that the murders were committed by human beings. All this proves is magic exists in the afterlife, but not in the physical realm.

Here's a summary of Umineko.

kfdskhjdhgjseiohoehoidhioheohoihfoidhsohfiohsiohfoidhf THE KILLER WORE A HAT skdhkafklhlgfdhfdhfdufdhfhudhfu I DID NOT KILL HIM WITH AN ORANGE hjfdhfjdshfodhfdjcldkjlfkjdlkjlkdjglkdgjfkglkfjgslkdkfjdk jdkjfd

AND IT WAS ALL BECAUSE GAS WAS LEAKING OUT OF A VENT IN THE GROUND AND CAUSING EVERYONE TO HALLUCINATE

>>3094747

Ange is schizophrenic.

>>3094797
No, you don't seem to understand. They're have a game about whether magic exists or not and the game consist entirely of magic. It's like you and I having an argument about whether arguing exists.

>>3094809

You can't prove arguing exists.

>>3094809
Maybe you need to reread the whole thing.
Beato claim she kill everyone in Rokkenjima while Battler claim that "HUMAN" kill everyone.

>>3094817
Um, yeah you can?

>>3094675
This.

>>3094809
But the game is in a completely separate world.

>>3094817
All Beatrice would need to say is "How do you think you're seeing these visions? How do you think my "voice" is red when I tell the truth? How do you think those girls are turning into stakes and flying around the room RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU?"

Instead she says "How did Gouda pour tea for 10 people from such a small teapot?" and really silly things like that.

>>3094809

I see, you're just trolling now because you didn't understand and are mad.

>>3094824
>>3094830
Are you both 5 years old? The game still takes place in a different world. A world where people turn into stakes, where people are resurrected. This is like a man arguing with a talking tomato about whether or not tomatoes can talk. The whole argument is a totally moot point. The man's only true defence is that he's totally lost his mind.

>>3094845

Her voice isn't red. It's a sword.

>>3094845
>>"How do you think you're seeing these visions? How do you think my "voice" is red when I tell the truth? How do you think those girls are turning into stakes and flying around the room RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU?"

Never happened.

>>3094845
You seemed to miss the whole point of the VN.

>>3094809
They are in purgatory arguing over the existence of magic on earth.
It's more like two people in Australia arguing if kangaroos can be found in the wild in Antarctica.

>>3094809
You're not even trying anymore, are you?

AND THEN BATTLER WOKE UP: IT WAS ALL A DREAM.

>>3094857
The game is about whether magic exists on earth, not whether it does in the meta world. This isn't difficult.

>>3094846
What the hell? OK, is the game they are having realistic to you? Do you have friends that can show you other dimensions? You can say anything you like, but unless you actually think it's "non-magical" to die and then waking up in a different place where people transform and where you can see several other dimensions from, you're argument is invalid. I've heard people rattle on about all sorts of shit in defence of this silly little story but the fact remains, the ENTIRE GAME uses magic in order to function.

Without magic, Battler would still be dead. If he didn't really die, I can still say without magic, he wouldn't be able to see these other eventualities. It's stated that he's seeing these things, rather than just hearing them, by the way.

Purgatory =/= real world.

Why is this hard for people like you to get, OP?

>>3094880

I'm not sure how much clearer we can make 'whether magic exists in the after life or not is not the issue, whether magic exists in real life or not is'.

>>3094880
I don't understand what you're trying to say Beato. What does any of that have to do with there being a human culprit?

>>3094877
Actually it never, ever says that. Other worlds and all that shit are just as bad as magic. Battler actually says that accepting other supernatural things is as bad as accepting witches. He says that "accepting a homunculus is as bad as accepting magic". So you think that accepting alternate dimensions and the ability to see into them, as well as a realm where magic exists, isn't contradicting his mission?

>>3094877
Yet, Beato says that she will "release" Battler if he wins so he can come back home to Ange. Now tell me, how do you release someone form death?

>>3094890
Protip: the afterlife is a superstition, just like magic. Battler won't accept any superstition like that.

>>3094902

Now tell me, why are you believing Beato?

>>3094906

2/10

>>3094900

He's being shown those things in the AFTERLIFE, he's trying to deny they exist in REAL LIFE.

>>3094900
What are you talking about? The game is about proving that the murders could be done by a human culprit. It has nothing to do with disproving magic in the meta world and Battler doesn't have to.

>>3094880

You're misunderstanding a veery basic concept here.

Battlers objective =/ Disprove magic.

Battlers objective = Prove that the murders taking place on the Island of Rokkenjima can be performed through non-magical means.
Even if Battler accepts that everything spoken in red is true because it's magic, that doesn't prove that no human could commit the murders.

Even if the Stakes kill Battler over and over with Beato reviving him, it doesn't fucking prove that the murders cannot be performed by humans.

At the start he SAYS he will disprove the existence of witches, but that's because he's a fucking dumbass.

>>3094902
Because this isn't the real world we're talking about. You have to accept that the meta world etc. 'exists'.

>>3094880
Exceedingly close minded. If an afterlife were to exist, it would not be magic. It would be most certainly a natural occurrence, just like birth and death of the physical body. You die, and your "soul", or whatever you wish to call it, exists in a separate plane. It's like if we were two dimensional, and you scoffed at the thought of a third dimension existing, saying that it could only be magical.

>>3094924

Beato stops existing if Battler wins.

So in essence he is. His goal is to 'deny magic', not 'prove it doesn't exist', though.

When you play a game of chess, the object is to win, not to destroy the chess pieces or board.

Similarly, for Battler, the real object of the game for him is to deny that the murders happened by way of witches or magic. Not to deny that witches and magic exist entirely.

Of course, he hasn't been doing a very good job of this just yet.


On the other hand you can just espouse the "Battler is high and dreamed the entire thing" theory..

>>3094930
inb4 200+ replies.

>>3094932
If she stops existing if Battler wins, then what's the point of Lambadelta threatening the hell out of Beato in the EP3 tea party? If she loses, she's got a much worse thing coming to her than simply not existing.

Someone missed Virgilia's Schrodinger's experiment explanation.

>>3094925
I accept that it exists. I also accept that Something happened in Rokkenjima, being it a normal murderer, an accident or a magical murderer, and Battler died. Now let's say that he wins the game, that means that he is "free", in other words he will come back to Earth. But wait, if magical only exists in the meta-world how can an event in the meta-world affect the real world in a way that something impossible like resurrection happens?

>>3094954
If either side wins the game ends and Bern is no longer trapped. 34's goal is to trap Bern for all eternity.

>>3094958
A kakera where no one dies might suddenly exist.

>>3094958
What you fail to realize is Battler is already DEAD.
1998 ANGE is also dead.

If he win they probably stop this repeating kakera loop bullshit and the current Battler get to go back to Ange.
If you guys are expecting any happy ending, dream on. Half of the people on the island are probably murderers or accomplices.

>>3094962

Why is it that people Lambdadelta 34?

>>3094934
>"Battler is high and dreamed the entire thing" theory..
>>3094873
>AND THEN BATTLER WOKE UP: IT WAS ALL A DREAM.

I know these are probably not gonna happen, but if they do I'll be pissed.

I'm always surprised at the lack of actual anti-fantasy readers on /jp/. I never see a single person try to explain the meta-world using logic.

I'm sure the first response to this will be "Battler's game is to deny magic on the island", despite the fact that we are not Battler.

>>3094981
That's why Piece Battler will fuse with Meta-Battler and trap everyone in one room claiming to be protecting them from the Red Text or however this went.

>>3094988
Lamba is greek for 30 and Delta is 4.

>>3094992
How about there was one series of murders on the island. Battler survived, but is traumatised. In his state, he pieces together the events in his mind through various games in the battle against the witch. After he solves it, he is free of his state.

Or something.

>>3094958
The game piece Battler would live through the typhoon, but it would be just like Ange for Meta-Battler. He can't return to his parents, because in the world where he existed, everyone died. What happens to Meta-Battler is up for debate, but I'm not seeing him returning to the real world.

>>3095008
I thought Delta was three.

>>3094994
Because physics majors

>>3095010

Meta-Battler can't return to the real world because he is a warlock

>>3094994
That's because if we deny the Meta World we essentially have to deny the Red Text. This leaves us with only Battler's PoV which isn't always reliable.
And you essentially need the Red Text to be able to make sense of any of the events going on.

>>3094994
It's simply impossible to do that. We can only be anti-fantasy about Rokkenjima.

>>3094988
Same reason people don't Hanyuu's horns.

>>3095016
I don't know anymore check the archive if you want something more concrete.

>>3095022
It's not impossible at all. Ange's story gave us plenty of ways to look at the meta-world.

>>3094994
Probably because most of us have realized by now that anti-fantasy/anti-mystery is fucking stupid. Just like Bern says, you need to look at the murders with both eyes open.

I am positive no magic was involved on the island, and I don't mind accepting magic existing in Purgatory.

>>3094999
or he kills everybody just to spite Beato

>>3094981 here
I am expecting him to be Trollkastel toy if he do win.
At least he get the comfort of seeing real Battler getting back together with Ange.

>explain the meta-world using logic.

The problem is, all of the explanations for the meta-world using "logic" will either sound crazier than all the anti-mystery stuff combined, or are just plain boring.

I'm sure that guy who says the whole thing's done by nanobots would be happy to chat with you, he's gotta be around here somewhere.

>>3095033
What I posted is pseudo copy pasta, I just don't remember how it goes.

>>3094954
Yeah, I've been wondering about this, too. But Lambda did say "if I see you make a move hoping for anything other than victory, prepare yourself," so I'm assuming 34's threatening that if she's about to lose, that's when she gets punished. But it was made pretty clear at the end of EP4 that Beato dies if she loses.

>>3095009
Concealed the Conclusion end?

>>3094994
Because we don't fucking need to explain how or why the Meta-world/Purgatoria exists.

/jp/'s focus, and Battler's focus, is to simply prove the Rokkenjima murders were by human hands, and that magic was not involved.

Think of Umineko as two people nicknamed "Beatrice" and "Battler" playing some convulted, twisted, horribly warped version of Clue.

"Beatrice" is continuing to warp the rules and the setting of the game, while "Battler" is forced to find a solution with these rules and set the game, as well as the setting in the end, back to normal. Or something similar to this.

OP, by any chance are you from /a/?

>>3095037
Devil's Proof bro. And I wouldn't put it past Kinzo...

>>3095041
What's that?

>>3095046
>Devil's proof
oh u

>>3095049
Reimu and Marisa dreamed Gensokyo while they were actually dying in the hospital.

Then they die. The end.

>>3095054
That's kind of depressing.

>>3095054
I hate hospitals. They're so depressing.

>>3095070
This.
And my mother wonders why I don't like visiting for more than a few minutes when she's in them.

>>3095070
I like hospitals. A/C's on almost all the time, comfortable beds, and somehow my blood doesn't boil as much when I'm in a hospital.

My only worry is going under the knife without enough shit in me to knock me out for a whole day. I've heard those stories about people waking up during surgery. Eugh.

>>3095043
I give up. It seems you all have convinced yourselves that you're playing the role of Battler, when the reader is actually above him.

Just realize that the existence of "Beatrice" would not be a mystery if you were just meant to accept the meta-world.

>>3095101

Yes it would.

>>3095101
see
>>3095021

>>3095092
I just find all the other people depressing. I remember when I got sick from Burger King back in grade 1, and all the kids who were there before me and who were still there when I left.

I, for one, find Rudolf fucking suspicious but I've heard quite a few people saying that Jessica is the main culprit. How does that work out exactly?

>>3095123
Rudolf knows something, but why would you find him suspicious? He almost always dies first.

>>3095123
Some business at the end of EP4 where Battler sees Beatrice on the "second floor balcony" which is actually supposedly Jessica's room

>>3095123
Hell, everyone is very very suspiscious at different times e.g. rudolf before EP1TW1, Genji alerting Nanjo before he's seen what's in the shed for EP1TW1.

>>3095123
Seems to me that the Killer is different in every story.

Jessica seems the most likely culprit for episode four to me because she manages to have a long conversation while she supposedly has a broken skull.

Seems more likely that she made that call, went out to meet Battler and quiz him on his sin, and then killed herself.

>>3095101
Repeat after me: "It's just a visual novel, I should really just relax."

Also, there has to be some kind of set of rules to figure out the mystery so that there can be solutions found to prove that humans caused the murders. The Red Text is merely a set of guidelines, limitations, if you will, so that it's more fun. Like solving riddles; as you solve more of them, you're given harder ones to figure out, although some are just too easy. (I'm looking at you, EP3.)

I'm very anti-mystery, but I don't riff on the anti-fantasy folk about it.

>>3095142
They opened the shed before Genji went to get Nanjo. If you want to take a jab at Genji, then look at the fact that he lied about the local phones being down.

>>3095009
NO
NO
NO
NO

No dreams
No madness delusions

Those endings are cheap as fuck.

>>3095117
I'm sorry to hear. The most I've ever gotten from a BK was a horrible back rash (although that might just have been due to an allergy of some kind of antibiotic...)

>>3095149
>>3095092
>>3095043

Also, thanks for these images. The'll come in handy.

>>3095153
That and playing along with Kinzo being alive.

>>3095162
Uh, no problem?

I can send you a folder of all of Beato's faces ripped from the VN if you want.

>>3095168
Also, IIRC, he was likely to be the one who drew the magic thing in Eva's room during EP1.

>>3095188
Couldn't have been anyone else. Even the "witch" is ruled out, since it only appeared after they were murdered.

So, let's see.
Battler and his family are already dead, and he (and only he) is discussing on purgatory with a Witch, who takes souls for herself (under the premise of a 'Golden land', an argument as silly as the muslim's 100 virgins) if he and his family were killed by magic or not. So, as long as Battler doesn't believe that, he doesn't 'lose' to the witch and his and his friends' souls are safe. So, the all powerful witch has to obey certain arbitrary rules about how to obtain souls, uh?
And we, the viewers, are watching this to find out what was the true reason of their deads, because we were asked to do so by a letter in a bottle. Wat.

Am I wrong in beliveing that the only thing that actually happened is episode's 1 events and the overly complicated argument boils down to how to prove two closed-room deaths and how a letter suddenly appeared in Kinzo's room? (Since all other deaths can be explained by a killer with a weapon that shoots stakes)

>>3095234

I don't think you've read the series.

>>3095234
We also assume anything seen by Piece Battler when not drunk, intoxicated etc. to be fact as well. Also any events before/after Oct. 4-5th that do not include magic.

>>3095234
Have you read any of it?

>>3095234
Also which two closed rooms in episode 1?

>>3095242
>>3095246
What's wrong with what he said? The theory that episode 1's events are the only reality is quite common.

>>3095172
>>3095172
THIS

>>3095234 the muslim's 100 virgins
> 6x9 = 100

>>3095245
So basically we only assume what we want to assume and disregard things as they appear inconvenient for our beliefs.

>>3095261
Something seems off about this, but I can't quite put my finger on it...

>>3095252
What reality? Like Natsuhi visiting jolly old Kinzo?

>>3095262
Things that appeared as the truth outside of Battler's POV have been denied by the red, so we don't believe it for no reason.

>>3095262
And what the red text says is true. Because for instance Natsuhi and Kinzo scene didn't happen in Episode one if Red Text is true. So Either all events in episode one are true or the red text is false.

Look, just take it easy

>>3095266
Obviously not. I'm sure you know what I meant, so why even post that?

>>3095262
Nice to see this thread has fallen to trolls trolling trolls.

>>3095266
Nothing unusual here!

>>3095172
That'd be nice, thanks.

>>3095276
Because he said, "only thing that actually happened is episode's 1 events" so I replied with an episode 1 event that clearly did not happen.

>>3095289
>>3095259
Alright then, the .rar should be ready soon.

>>3095279
That's how an Umineko thread USUALLY ends. At least, if the OP is someone like >>3094647 who does not at all comprehend what's going on.

So "Kinzo" is dead at the beginning of every game, but Kinzo's name is inherited. If we believe in the "ring throwing scene" of EP1 one we can say that the old man with the cape is no longer "Kinzo" after that, so he could be alive.

>>3095308
Who says the name is inherited? That was just a theory presented by Battler, not a fact.

>>3095308

Then who was the Kinzo of episode 4 that everyone spoke of to Battler?

>>3095308
In every episode, Kinzo is found burned. Think about it. It would hide the time of death. He is dead before all that.

>>3095305
I thought I understood it pretty well myself but everytime I read these threads I end up realizing I don't even know what the fuck I just read. Or what I actually understood.

>>3095322
That wasn't Kinzo. That was Goldsmith.

>>3095292
Ur dumb.
What hes saying is all meta-stuff(including red), everything past game 1, is an illusion, caused by messages in a bottle.

>>3095324
...well, in that case it's times like these avoiding these kinds of threads are for the best.

>>3095323
I think it's safe to say he died from natural causes before the start of the game.

>>3095334
No, now I have to look at more threads to eventually understand what I'm supposed to understand.

>>3095343
....please stop confusing me. I don't need a headache at this time of the night.

>>3094924
This is my interpretation; I thought it was very straight forward. The tea party at the end of the anime's ep 5 makes it abundantly clear that Beatrice won't revive unless everybody believes that the murders could not have occurred without magic. In the VN, Battler also says something like 'A real miracle occurs whether or not people believe.' or something. The character relation chart at the end of ep 1 also make it fairly obvious that Battler's unwillingness to believe has stopped Beatrice's revival, and everybody's seat in the Golden Land.

>>3095349
Can't be worse than the one I have since I finished reading the thread.

>>3095351
>The tea party at the end of the anime's ep 5
>anime

>>3095355
Mine is caused by stress (usually), and me being the angry little bastard that I am, they last longer, and come back faster.

>>3095351
>anime
There's your problem.

>>3095355
link?

>>3095378
No idea.

>>3095377
Then I'll try not to confuse you anymore. I'll just keep visiting these threads until EP5 comes out anyway.

# All of those who met at the family conference recognized the existence of Kinzo!

* (This is referring to Kinzo's appearance in Episode 4.)

# No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight.
# No matter what the disguise, they would not mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo!
# Kinzo's life or death status is the same at the start of each of the 4 games.
# The setup was not different for the fourth game alone...!
# Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games!
# Before now, I have proclaimed that no more than 18 humans exist on this island.
# I will lower that by one for Kinzo!!
# No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!
# That excludes any 18th person.
# In short, this 18th person X does not exist!!
# This applies to all games!!!

So what is observed is all that matters. As long as one observer sees the events of Rokkenjima's Incident as non-magical, a handful of kakera where no magical things happened 'exists', Bern can multiply those to effectively negate Beato.

>>3095397
SAY IT IN RED

>>3095393
That's what I'm doing anyways.

I'm not affected by spoilers, because even if I find out what happens, what's more amusing is what goes on inbetween, from Point A (I start reading) to Points B, C, D, etc. (all the spoilers I encounter).

Like, small bombs. I did not know what was going on with that, but when I got to the EP4 Tea Party, I seriously laughed harder than I should have at Battler's ridiculous theory.

But that's just me.

>>3095397
Recognizing his existence does not mean seeing him in person. You should be more careful with the red.

>>3095403
Beato did in Episode 4.

I was wondering about this for a while.
When Kyrie, Krauss, Shannon/Kanon and Nanjo are fighting the goats and eventually take one down, Nanjo says something like "Make sure you rub this on the affected area, and rest well". Is this implying he's in cahoots with the culprit, or is he just being a nice guy?

>>3095407
Well, I didn't come to /jp/ until I finished EP 4, so that may have actually backfired since I think /jp/ has the right idea, and I don't know if I had it while I read.

>>3095412
I was just posting it so people know what the red text is since Kinzo is being mentioned.

>>3095417
That never happened.
Also hippocratic oath?

I conclude that Kinzo is an undead zombie. He is dead, yet he can murder!

>>3095417
I think that was like a joke, like you know, the whole power level thing discussion. Just some comedy the writer put in there.

At least that's what I think.

>>3095418
Oh, and yeah, I didn't know SMALL BOMBS was such a joke here.

>>3095421
Fantasy or not, there are still clues to be found.

Although that scene may not be the best example.

>>3095427
And of course, like >>3095421 said, that never happened.

>>3094994
I wrote about this a bit earlier, but you seemed to have missed it. Basically, I believe that the meta-world is an allegory for what is happening in the real world to identify what happened on the island.

It's already been said in the novel, but I like to point out again that Beatrice in her truest form is merely a set of rules that dictate the events of Rokkenjima. The other witches are probably similar to her in this regard, since they're basically personifications of concepts anyhow (Certainty, Miracle, Creation, Endless). Since we don't know the true nature of the witches, we as an audience can only assume that they are magical since we can't show otherwise. Meta-Battler is most likely a process to identify these concepts and rules so that the legend can be dispelled.

I'll also like to theorize that there is only one true Rokkenjima, and the multiple gameboards are merely different possibilities of what could've happened. However, the point of having different iterations of the same event might be a way to crack the rules of Beatrice. The two letters that Maria wrote after her "death" reveal two different scenarios that could've happened. It's impossible for two different events to have happened at the same time, but it's very possible that those two interpretations share a pattern similar to what really happened.

So, why do we have this meta-world to begin with, then? I'm not sure, but I'll guess that it has to do something with Battler's sin, the bank numbers, Maria's letters, and the rampant speculation about the Rokkenjima mystery.

Of course, if you think that the meta-world actually does exist, then this speculation is all rubbish. But it's fun to see how far we can get with complete anti-fantasy theories.

>>3095417
Nanjo's a doctor, so he's kind of neutral.

>>3095418
Hmm. Well, I'm just going along with the ride as an anti-mystery folk and watching the action unfold.


Also, for those who wanted the Beato faces:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=T17N1CTZ
Just take the images, crop the faces, and resave as PNG/JPG.

>>3095432
>>3095427
>>3095421
I see, haha. I just noticed it was really out of place.

Every single woman in the Ushiromiya family is an unforgivable bitch. I can't stand any of them.

>>3095417

RED TEXT

Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers

That does refer to episode 1 though.

>>3095437
Thanks.

>>3095433
See? After reading this I'm even more confused than before.

>>3094994
>>3095433
I like this line of thinking myself. A lot of the Japanese anti-fantasy theories seem to place a lot of importance on the mariage sorciere, but I'm not sure on the details.

>>3095445
What did Kyrie ever do to you?

>>3095450
Nanjo doesn't have to murder anyone if he's just doing the staking.

>>3095438
Yeah, I was like "wat" but then i realized that didn't look that out of place after the whole HIS POWER LEVEL IS 1000 YOU COULDN'T BEAT HIM EVEN IF etc. thing happened. It was just a big joke.

>>3095427
It is, due to how ridiculous it is for an anti-fantasy theory, yet it still can't be refuted by Beato's red truth. It's like MGS4's "nanomachines."

>>3095433
It does exist, but... I like to think it really is Purgatory, and Battler is fighting so that
a) he can free his family from this "curse," and
b) so that he can move on.

Beatrice is the anchor that's causing this curse, a sort of personification of the Endless like you said, but a certain saying comes to mind:
"Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat their mistakes." I suppose Battler's sin is related to this.

Interpret "b" as you'd like.

>>3095450
Couldn't he still be an accomplice though? He doesn't have to necessarily kill anyone.

>>3095457
This.

>>3095433
So meta-world = /jp/ trying to figure out what the fuck happened? And the various episodes = the various theories of what happened?

>>3095452
Witches are set of rules. Finding out what happened on Rokkenjima is the same as finding out what the rules of the island are. According to Ryukishi07, iirc, Eva's survival in the third arc was due to her breaking one of those rules.

If you can't find out what these rules are, then you'll never be able to figure out what really happened.

EPISODE 4 RED TEXT

Six years ago for me, no person called Beatrice existed.

YOU ARE NOW AWARE OF THE FACT ASUMU DIED SIX YEARS AGO

A person called Beatrice exists, she is the daughter of Beatrice and Kinzo, she has an accomplice and she is the actual murderer.

>>3095479
His sin has nothing to do with his immediate family.

>>3095477
Well, what you're saying certainly makes sense, but now the thing is. Is this thing you're saying the truth? I mean, it's like everyone has their own theory or something.

>180 posts and 18 image replies omitted.

>>3095472
The various episodes are more likely the various interpretations of what happened, and not theories. Maria's letters are probably incredibly detailed descriptions of each episode. It's almost like a riddle that somebody wants people to solve.

>>3095480
Technically, Beatrice DID exist, and she can be considered a daughter to Kinzo if you really consider a golem your own "flesh and blood."

But anyways, I still kind of stick with my whole "Beatrice = parasite-like conscious" theory, ala Dark Falz.

>>3095477
I think it's safe to say that the rule she broke has to do with the epitaph. She survived because it led her to the Kuwadorian.

>>3095493
This was OP's (Beato) plan all along...

>>3095492
Nah. It's only just a theory. I just might be trying to see epileptic trees everywhere.

However, there's an entire TIPS section dedicated to the entire process behind witches, so I'm thinking that there must be some reason behind it.

>>3095487
Technically since Asumu is not Battler's biological mother, she's not really his immediate family.

>>3095500
Rosa also solved it and met up with Eva, but she died.

>>3095501
I like to think people are actually *this* dumb.

>>3095504
I guess, but as you said it's only a theory, so nobody can't be sure it's true, even if it is based of the info given by the TIPS.

>>3095507
Well no shit, Rosa was murdered. Solving the epitaph can't protect you from other humans, but it could protect you from a foreseen event.

>>3095509
;_____;

>>3095504
I suppose it has to do with symbolism.

Like with Maria. I did notice a few things due to /jp/'s help.

Maria is a Witch of Creation, able to create 1 from 0. Sounds like that OTHER kind of Maria, right? Hell, her name written in kanji has a cross in it. And she's usually one of the last ones to be left alive, and considered missing, if not outright dead. Although seen as innocent and naive, with some knowledge in the occult, she might also be obfuscating stupidity for the sake of "Beatrice," playing along with the whole "God/'Beatrice' works in mysterious ways."

>>3095515
I mean OP, not you.

>>3095523
That's ok, I assumed that.

>>3095480
Say that in red!

>>3095521
Sakutaro is Jesus, he died for Battler's sin(stealing Maria's key).

>>3095530
Ah.

As for the rest of the Mariage Sorciere, they could be just symbols for certain things involved with Rokkenjima. But I only made up Maria off the top of my head and I have nothing for the others yet.

>>3095538
I don't want to go with a literal "Maria = Virgin Mary," but it's the idea of it that should be more important.

Didn't read your entire post but basically, there's no way to prove that witches do not exist because of the devil's proof. However, the only thing Battler can prove is that witches were not involved in the murders on Rokkenjima

>>3095548
>>3095538
>>3095521

Y'all niggas crazy

>>3095555
And I suppose you have a more logical idea of what MARIA is supposed to represent?

You know, I always thought that the "key" from the "six chosen by the key" was strange. At first I thought that it implied that there was something in common between all who die at the first twilight. Or may the key changes every episode that the six murders reveal it.

>>3095564
Of course I do.
I don't

Then what about ANGE? I'd just add an L there but that'd be too obvious.
Then again, the maria theory is kinda obvious too.

>>3095521
That could be reasonable, but then there wouldn't be any reason behind putting stuff like Voyagers in there.

Speaking of Trollkastel and 34, I'll like to theorize that their concept plays a part of the whole meta-world mystery as well. Since Beatrice was granted her powers by 34, it can be said that there is some association between their concepts. While the events of each iteration may be different, the rules of board have to remain "Absolute". Thus, by 34 saying that her power is what makes Beatrice a witch, it means that there must be a "Certainty" in Beatrice's rules.

Bernkastel on the other hand did not create Meta-Battler, but she is his ally. Since Meta-Battler is the process of finding out what really happened on the island, I'd say that to understand the murder you need a "miracle". Bern has said to gone a thousand years before she could finally beat Lambda at her own game, which says a lot about her tenacity. Thus, each iteration of the gameboard is actually another attempt at figuring out the mystery, and the game between Battler and Beatrice will continue until he finds that "miracle", i.e. figures out the whole shebang.

I'm gonna love it if in the final Episode of Umineko Ryukishi explains it all by saying

That its all things Eva imagined herself while she was in the hospital and in reality,she's the one who killed the Ushiromiya family and Ange also decided to not accept Eva as her mother of her own free will.

>>3095580
I would send him a letter with small bombs as well.

>>3095580
I would send him a letter with small bombs if he did that.

>>3095577
So Lambda would represent that certain parts of the game remain an absolute; no room for extra variables.

Bern is the chance that either Battler gets some sort of epiphany to figure out the puzzle (and by god I hope he does) or that there is always a small chance for changing the tides of the game, and Battler finds this chance after a lot of trial and error.

ANGE could represent that even when knocked down after a large metaphorical blow, one can always get back up and strike back twice as hard. (Resurrection of hopes? Of dreams?)

>>3095580
I would personally Ryukishi a strongly worded letter in japanese if this were the case.

>>3095593
Would it have tiny explosives in it as well?

>>3095604
It would have QUANTUM BOMBS in it.

>>3095576
Maria is the Witch of Creation. She gets 1 from 0. She's also the one that wrote about the Rokkenjima incident.

Think about it. Without her letters, nobody would've thought that a witch could've done the murders, and everybody would've believed that the entire incident could've been done by human beings. However, because of her letter, it gives the magical aspect of the murder a LOT more credibility, in essence creating something that was never there.

>>3095604

Do I look like the unabomber?

>>3095609

Would they be of reduced size?

>>3095610
True.

>>3095614
Fine, I'll do it then.

>>3095610
...never saw it like that.

>>3095625
I love that face.

>>3095617
see http://archive.easymodo.net/cgi-board.pl/jp/thread/2779538#p2779538 for QUANTUM BOMBS.

>>3095636
HOLY FUCK WAT

>>3095641
Here's part one
http://archive.easymodo.net/cgi-board.pl/jp/thread/2766221

>>3095590
ANGE is something that I need to read up to actually create a theory.

But yeah, that's pretty much a gist of it. I don't think there's any contradictions to this theory in the novel, so I believe my reasoning is somewhat sound.

>>3095645
>>3095636
Holy shit this is awesome

>>3095663
Don't get any ideas from those though. Janitor-san didn't particularly like those threads.

>>3095686
A shame. Looked like a fun thread.

>>3095610
Reading up on the TIPS of Mariage Sorciere, I believe that this is the sole reason that Beatrice exists.

Beatrice was a legendary figure that few people believed in this day and age. However, her alliance with Maria, who created the story of the witch orchestrating the Rokkenjima murders, allowed her to become prominent in the world, as she was now tied to an event that could not be explained. Maria respected Beatrice's magic of endlessness and started to write the many stories of Rokkenjima, while Beatrice continued to thrive on Maria's creation of these stories.

>>3095707
Might be best to repost your theories again tommorow, when /jp/ is more active to get more feedback on them.

>>3095723
Probably should do some more reading on Ange as well, to figure out what's she's about.

It's kinda refreshing to come up with Umineko theories that doesn't have to do anything with small bombs or Kanon being Shannon.

>>3095746
Yes. Your theories also deal with the most troubling part of the Anti-Fantasy viewpoint so it's very helpful.

>>3095746
Refreshing indeed.

There are a couple of things I don't really understand.
1. Battler denied that Beatrice kill anyone and that the killing is done by people in his family. But yet he hates her because she is a cruel muderer. WTF?

In ep4 tea party. GAME BOARD battler meet with Beatrice and fought with her using red and blue before she hug him and game board BAttler disappear. If magic doesn't exist how the hell did 'fake' Beatrice make GAME BOARD battler disappear (according to TIPS he had been dragged to hell)

>>3095911
The Episode 4 Tea Party red and blue fight was between Meta-Battler and Beato, I believe. Otherwise where would piece Battler get knowledge of the 3 previous games. As for being dragged to hell that is probably a metaphor of somesort.

>>3095911
"beatrice" is the murderer.

Who beatrice actually is can be up for debate though.

>>3095911
Piece Battler disappeared as the clock struck 12. Like all games, it's at that point that he went missing/died.

Lambdadelta promised "Beatrice" she'd make her a real witch if she was able to carry out the Rokkenjima murders and convince everyone it was done by a witch, but really it was a farce just to get Bern into a game she couldn't win. The meta-world is governed by Lambda and Bern is allowed to use magic within it, but until she becomes a real witch she can't use it in the real world. Battler didn't accept her, (according to Lambda's plan) and so Lambda keeps resetting the game for her as much as possible to just keep Bern as her prisoner. "Beatrice" is one of the 17(16?) and only appears as "Beatrice" in the meta-world. Many people are working with "Beatrice" for some reason, and he/she is often betrayed.

Lambdadelta promised "Beatrice" she'd make him/her a real witch if he/she was able to carry out the Rokkenjima murders and convince everyone it was done by a witch, but really it was a farce just to get Bern into a game she couldn't win. The meta-world is governed by Lambda and Beato is allowed to use magic within it, but until he/she becomes a real witch he/she can't use it in the real world. Battler didn't accept her, (according to Lambda's plan) and so Lambda keeps resetting the game for her as much as possible to just keep Bern as her prisoner. "Beatrice" is one of the 17(16?) and only appears as "Beatrice" in the meta-world. Many people are working with "Beatrice" for some reason, and he/she is often betrayed.

>>3098399
>make a real witch
Beatrice is Maria

>>3098399
Beatrice's probably the human that wrote on the Mariage Sorciere and created the letters that "Maria Ushiromiya" wrote. I just believe that "a witch Beatrice" murdering everyone is really just a set of rules and patterns. It's made into a witch by human imagination and lack of information. But take away all that and she's very human with only human capabilities, and only those rules (granted by "certainty", aka Lambdadelta) is keeping her as a "witch".