/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Also, something that I've noticed.

In Episode 1, Genji hands over a ring of keys to Natsuhi (in Kinzo's study), but in all other episodes, the servants have master keys.

>>3050944

The master keys ARE key rings.

Weird, yes, I know... but that's the conclusion people came to after a debate on it in Animesuki's Umineko forum.

inb4'why were you on animesuki'

Someone PLEASE tell me that Battler witnesses both Shannon and Kanon in the same scene on the Board. I can't take this insane Shan=Kan theory. It's seriously SO stupid that I can't believe it.

Jessica raped repeatedly for years, the trauma causing her to believe herself to be Beatrice, or Eva being greedy?

[sarcasm]HMMMMMM... TOUGH CALL...[/sarcasm]

Kyrie is the mastermind.
She's got that look.

>>3050957

He never has, not once.

Closest things are first twilight in Episode 1, where Kanon and Hideyoshi are the only ones that saw Shannon, and first twilight in Episode 3, where Battler didn't actually see either, but everyone else saw Kanon and Shannon's corpses, but in different places and different times.

>>3050957
He doesn't, why do you think it's so widespreqad?
The only times I can think of that they appear together with other people present are with Genji (who talks to Kinzo, enough said), Beatrice in ep2, and in the jail in ep4 (which didn't happen lawl.)

>>3050957
So ridiculous that it must be true.

If Kanon and Shannon are the same person, Shkanon is pretty fucked up to be leading on both George and Jessica at the same time.

>>3051028
>>3051022
>>3051019
OP here. GOD DOMMOT BOTTLOR.
If it IS true, the "Shannon personality" existed longer, because Battler mentioned her being his first crush from SIX YEARS AGO.

>>3051032
Jessica x Kanon is more Jessica's initiative; Kanon turns her down.

I like the theory that Shannon's personality split when she realized that she loved George; Kanon embodies her servant mentality to extremes while she's free to embrace her love. The timeline fits and everything, not to mention that most of their conversations are an argument about this.

>>3050936
witches did it

Checkmate!

>>3051002
hohoho
Battler is HER child. His "mother" was the one who had a miscarriage and had him STOLEN to force the marriage.
Battler's SIN is that he FORSAKE his own mother six years ago and thus Kyrie wanted the revenge and went with Kinzo's plan.
How else do you explain his hair color and close bond to Ange? How else can you explain the Beatrice in the end of EP4? His mother set up a game for him alone to win, and the goal of the game is none other than to protect his real little sister from ill fate.

In EP4, Kyrie created the close room. Had Maria take a pill and then killed her due to the despair that Battler still hadn't realized who his mother is.
Battler was already poisoned and so was everyone else. Nobody could leave alive but maybe Kyrie had the cure.
yeah, brace for momcest

>>3051040
It frees up that dyke Jessica for the wincest shippers too.

>>3051050
>>3051050
This theory is definitely more believable that the kanon samefagging theory.
I mean with the Rosa/Maria thing thrown into it, Ryukishe might be turning this into a mother/children bond story.

>>3051059
>>3051050
If that's true, then, in Epidode 4...

Battler called her "mom."
OH THAT'S SO GOD DAMNED SWEET.

Insulin, insulin....

>>3051050
It'd make sense.
In ep3 Kyrie may have had actually racked up more kills than Eva did, with Eva only actually killing Kyrie and Battler.

>>3051050
So you're saying after the failed "test", she killed herself in the room Battler found her in during the fourth Tea Party?

I actually like the theory, despite the fact that Kyrie is my favorite mom in the story.

I'm personally leaning towards Kyrie= mastermind because Kyrie hates Asumu, and I'm assuming that the ep5 witch who may be acting as Battler's magic adviser is Asumu.
Therefore Battler teaming up with Kyrie's nemesis = Kyrie becoming main antagonist.
That, and also because of all the people on the island, only Kyrie seems to be smart enough to pull off all the closed room shit, and it's WAAAY too easy for Eva to have done ALL the killing just because Ep3 strongly suggest that she did.

>>3051095
Kind of agree with you too. Usually in mystery novel, the least suspected one is usually the mastermind. She is also the only one that can pull off the goat mans with her Sumadera connection.

>>3051050
I don't think hair color counts for much in Umineko, given how Battler commented that the only way you'd really realize Beatrice in the portrait was a foreigner was her blonde hair, right as Jessica and her blonde hair was standing next to him.

Plus, why was she killed in the first twilight in the first two episodes (when the hardest closed rooms were done yo)?

>>3051106
Got betrayed by her accomplice, faked death and etc.
Who knows? We are just speculating.

>>3051100
Hold on. The goat men have never been witnessed by Battler, and the humans on the island are limited by the red.

>>3051100
I liked that theory because even if anti-magic pulls through in the end, the Rosa Musou scene would've still have happened.
You just swap the goatman out for men-in-black.

>>3051100
The rest of the Sumadera family hates her for abandoning them, she really burned that bridge.

another thing to consider is the money.
if Kyrie had succeeded in her plan, all of the people on the island would die (maybe save for battler). and the servants' families and Ange received the money.
it suggests that at least two of the servants were hired in a death mission (and it happened to be the old guys who were kicking the bucket anytime soon) and the money for Ange was Kyrie's way to protect her daughter.
Something went wrong in EP3 and Eva survived. Kyrie probably found out about her and Rosa solving the riddle. She probably wanted to break her promise with Kinzo to let them survive and killed Rudolf and Hideyoshi in the mansion. Later Eva killed her.
That's why Eva hated Ange so much. Not only for grief of her dead son (Nanjo most likely killed him) but also for the fact that she's the culprit's daughter and she survived.

>>3051113
Read the witch's tanabata yo.

What, so all of a sudden everyone is realizing Kyrie may be the murderer?
Have we stumbled upon a new probable theory since "Kanon = Shanon"?

>>3051113
It was because of trollkastel.
Trollkastel made Ange hate Eva which made her hate Ange.

>>3051114
I guess if we accept Bernkastel exists as such, and not a conceptual being.

That's rather anti-mystery, though.

>>3051114
yeah, but witches don't exist.

There could be a different mastermind in each episode. Also just because Kinzo is dead, doesn't mean that he isn't involved in the events in any way.

For example, let's say that the first part of the epitah is really for finding Kinzo's will, not for finding the gold. Kinzo's names the person who finds it as the heir, but there are a few conditions to fill. Unless that person kills at least 13 people within those two days, the will is nullified. Genji, Shannon and Kanon are there as servants of Kinzo's will, and will ensure that everything goes as Kinzo planned with force if necessary. Nanjo is also in on it, but doesn't fully understand Kinzo's plans.

So what would change with each game is that a different person solves the epitah before the first twilight murders. Genji is always a loyal furniture, so always aids the killer. Nanjo also assists, though he doesn't quite realize that his own life is also in danger until the murders start happening. Shannon and Kanon sometimes aid the killer as furniture, and sometimes oppose them by forsaking their furniture nature.

So for example for the 1st game killers are Natsuhi and Krauss, with Genji and Nanjo as accomplises. Kanon turns against Natsuhi when she kills Shannon in the first twilight.

>>3051126
Bernkastel doesn't have to exist for it to explain why Eva hates Ange despite initially trying to love her.

>>3051127
One problem I have with Genji being an accomplice in killing is that it was stated in red that Genji is not a murderer.
Which I guess makes me question the red truth as well...

>>3051130
Accomplice doesn't mean he has to be killing anybody himself.

>>3051127
if we assume that Kinzo had wanted the gamble to succeed (by letting the world view this as a fantasy) in every game, he would be a greater mastermind.
like I said before, any adults and most servants have motives and ability to kill and in each episode, multiple culprits is almost unavoidable.

>>3051130
Did it specify he was not a killer for that particular game, or that he isn't a murderer in every game?

>>3051139
only in EP1
the most difficult death would be the death of the servants since they are all stated to not be murderers.

# Kinzo is dead
# Krauss is dead
# Natsuhi is dead
# Hideyoshi is dead
# George is dead
# Rudolf is dead
# Kyrie is dead
# Rosa is dead
# Maria is dead
# Genji is dead
# Shannon is dead
# Kanon is dead
# Gohda is dead
# Kumasawa is dead
# Nanjo is dead
# The 15 people mentioned are dead
# Battler is alive
# Eva is alive
# Jessica is alive

Since Kinzo is already dead at the beginning. What do you guys think about Kyrie going to meet up with mystery killer X in episode3? I am suspecting mystery killer X to be goldsmith himself.

>>3051140
>>>/rs/Genji,+Kumasawa,+and+Nanjo+are+not+murderers

It's just stated so generally that it really makes me think they're forced accomplices (Genji and Nanjo at least, Kumasawa might really be in the dark).

Plus, there has to be another person still alive to kill Natsuhi, and the closed room isn't too hard to break if you think the culprit hides until Natsuhi and co. come in, then sneaks out.

>>3051145
>>>/rs/Before_now_I_have_proclaimed_that_no >>>/rs/more_than 18_humans_exist_on_this island.
>>>/rs/I_will_lower_that_by_one_for_Kinzo!!
>>>/rs/No_more_than_17_humans_exist_on_this_island!!

>>3051145
There is no room for an extra person unless you believe in the Shannon and Kanon theory.

No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!
That excludes any 18th person.
In short, this 18th person X does not exist!!
This applies to all games!!!"

witches are real

you saw it here first!

>>3051145
* is dead and * is a victim from start to end are totally different.
multiple culprits can kill each other all they want and they all end up dead.
also, everyone could be already poisoned by roses/meals/water/etc and they had to find a cure or something.

>>3051145

>>>/rs/Before_now_I_have_proclaimed_that_no
>>>/rs/more_than_18_humans_exist_on_this_island.
>>>/rs/I_will_lower_that_by_one_for_Kinzo!!
>>>/rs/No_more_than_17_humans_exist_on_this_island!!

>>3051149
It'd be stupid for the person who shot Natsuhi to be unknown at this point.
However, how can
>>>/rs/The+thing+that+shot+Natsuhi+wasn't+a+trap,+it+was+a+real+shooting+murder+with+a+
gun+raised+and+trigger+pulled!
not require that someone else be alive to kill Natsuhi?

>>3051156
one thing though. does the red still stand AFTER the two days?
goat men may be hired by kinzo/kyrie's family to finish off whoever doesn't win the game but stayed alive after the two days (Rosa, Battler etc)

>goat men

>>3051159
it's jessica.
it's kanon who can't stay dead as always.

>>3051161
It doesn't of course; after midnight anything's game.

Goatmen are imported wolves

>>3051167
they are killers with a goat mask.
nothing magical about that.
Just kidding, the witch did that.

I'm almost positive that Kanon faked his death in episode 1. He's most likely the one that killed Natsuhi.

>>3051177
I was positive his death was confirmed in red, but the only thing I found was Lambda guaranteeing that the identities of all faceless corpses were guaranteed.

hmm...

>>3051149
>The culprit who killed Nanjo was neither Battler nor Eva nor Jessica
>A human, with their feet on the ground, held up a weapon and killed with it!

Using process of elimination we have to assume it is mystery killer X. Also this
>the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed
>The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
>A different person cannot claim his name!

Stop samefagging them. Just speculating how mystery killer X can exist without samefagging. It is possible that there are two Nanjo with the real Nanjo getting killed beforethe game start and his corpse got thrown into the sea with mystery killer X replacing him.

on the island =/= underground the island

>>3051188
It's pointless to speculate on if a mystery killer X exists.
If he does, it's fucking stupid amateur writing that Ryukishi has really implied that he won't pull (he didn't in Higurashi and seems a lot more mystery-aware in Umineko.)

If Kanon == Shannon, there are either only 16 people or the 17th never kills anyone.

>>3051189
Trying to be literal with a translation is a bad idea.

>>3051188
Shannon's corpse was 'identified', we just don't know if they were lying or not, it's not an unidentified corpse.

>>3051189
That was addressed by chronotrig on AS. I don't remember exactly what he said but I do remember him saying that it doesn't work.

>>3051198
>>3051198
Then you should stop reading it now.
It is pretty obvious that mystery killer X kill the "Nanjo" that was in episode3. We just don't know how to put mystery killer X into the game due to the not more than 17 people on the Island.

Also I am not into the Kanon=Shannon camp. Lets see how Ryukishi gonna solve this during the answer arc.

Most of the mysteries in episode 1 can be explained if you assume that Krauss didn't die in the first twilight. Only the identities of the unidentified corpses was assured with the red truth, the identities of the identified corpses with half their faces smashes was not confirmed. In the first twilight both Shannon and Krauss had their faces half-smashed, so we can't be sure of their deaths.

The adults were also very careful in the shed scene not to let the children examine the corpses "for their own wellbeing." We can't know if Eva and Hideyoshi got a chance to examine the corpses or not. The only adult who really got to examine the corpses was Nanjoi. It would be very easy for Krauss to fake his death in that situation, and later be let out of the shed by Natsuhi who was controlling the master key. Makeup and possibly some drugs to induce a sleep like state could be used to make him appear dead to someone looking from far away. The room was very dark after all.

>>3051233
fine, stupid off-the-cuff theory on Nanjo's murder:
the true (shannon|kanon|kamasuma|gohda|genji) is already dead and the one we see is an impostor. This satisfies the red while allowing them to also be Nanjo's killer.

>>3051233
>It is pretty obvious that mystery killer X kill the "Nanjo" that was in episode3

It's not obvious at all or there would be no debate about it.

Also, 'the' Nanjo? Really?

>>3051233
I think the key is to realize magical world events=metaphor for mystery world events.
Jessica was blind so what she thought she'd see was a hint. Nanjo tried to kill her and the almost dead Kanon killed Nanjo.
He said he's got a sick grandchildren in the end so I wouldn't say he's a fake.
I think he's an accomplice for Kyrie in EP3 who killed George, so Eva was enraged when she found the truth and killed Battler, saying she did it (probably meaning she killed Kyrie).

Only good end can come from battler cheating. Seriously, it won't end in either's victory, but rather Battler fucking over the game so it ends without a decided victor. Seriously, he has to do something like invoke chaos which is the force that engulfs miracles(since after all miracles are but a face of chaos) and shatters certainty. Remember BOTH the true witches are his enemies, not the fake witch Beatrice.

>>3051266
it doesn't matter whos true and whos fake when they don't exist

>>3051271
Thing is they also don't not exist.

>>3051002
Me? The culprit?

>>3051149
Furniture doesnt count as human.

In chess, remember about the "Promotion" (no, not that 'Promotion'), when a pawn can be exchanged into anything at its 8th rank.

Following this rule, I believe the killer is Maria. My point is that she has been hypnotized ever since the beginning at the garden.

I have already have an idea of how she killed everyone. But I just need to crack the puzzle of how Maria transports the first three corpses at the beginning,

Shannon = Kanon is so obviously true, and that's exactly why some people refuse to believe it.

There's so much evidence for it, the only rebuttal is that there is too much evidence, so Ryukishi must be trying to troll.

>>3051303
Where does a hypnotized 9 year old get the strength to move adult bodies hundreds of yards?

>>3051316
The power of the devil.

Devil's proof.

Ryukishi is just trolling with Maria's goofy hat resembling the top part of the black queen chess piece too, I assume.

Guy is an ass.

>>3051306
Just answer one thing: How does Shannon hides her massive boobs? When Kanon (or Shannon if you will) where stabbed at the steam room underground, doesn't anything that hold her boobs tight got cut loose?

ARE YOU ALL RETARDED OR SOMETHING
IT'S A FUCKING WITCH

>>3051316
That's the last puzzle I am still wondering. One theory is by using the wheelbarrow that Kanon used at the very beginning at the garden.

>>3051324
See
>Sakuya Izayoi

>>3051324
What if she's not well endowed? It's easy to pad breasts.

>>3051324
Shannon isn't a girl. Kanon is the one that dresses up as Shannon. The boobs are fake.

>>3051331
Pads is for Kanon = Shannon, not Shannon = Kanon.

>>3051324
It's not that Shannon has huge boobs. It's that Kanon doesn't, under Shannon's top are simply watermelons or somesuch.

Shannon is already dead, the "Shannon" that is seen on present Rokkenjima is Kanon crossdressing.

>>3051329
How about who killed Nanjo, Genji, and Kumasawa in ep1?
It's stated in red that it's not Maria.

>>3051336
>>Shannon is already dead, don't ask for proof I refuse.

>>3051339
Devil's proof

>>3051332
>>3051333
>>3051324

Proof that Jessica = Beatrice. First of all, Jessica loves Kanon, and protective of him. Second of all, she punched Battler when he was about to touch Kanon's pads. Battler is an expert breast sommelier, he would have been able to tell the illusion immediately, foiling Beatrice's magic.

>>3051318
That only works for Battler, but not the player. Remember that Battler only needs to prove that the murders could have been commited without magic. That's why he can make ridiculous arguments like "small bombs."

As the player of the game, are you not also interested in finding out the real truth behind the incidents? If you are content with simply denying the witch, then you can really suggest any kind of theory as Beatrice won't be able to counter it with the red truth. Using faulty logic like the Devil's proof works for denying the witch, but it does not work for finding out the truth.

>>3051336
>>3051336
Outrageous.

>>3051341
Shannon is not Kanon or vice versa. Devils Proof.

>>3051345
What is this trying to prove?

Also, I never knew they were exactly the same height, that certainly helps the Shannon = Kanon camp.

>>3051293
Why am I laughing so hard

>>3051252
>The culprit who killed Nanjo was neither Battler nor Eva nor Jessica
>The rest of the people on the island are listed as dead in red
>A human, with their feet on the ground, held up a weapon and killed with it!
Process of elimination. Do you know it?
I like to hear how you can explain dead people walking around killing people with a weapon.

>>3051333
But didnt Battler have a crush with her 6 years ago?

>>3051347
>>3051347
Thats not how a devil's proof works.

>>3051343
Shannon = Kannon is not ridiculous at all.

You can't prove they aren't the same person. Isn't that strange? It should be an easy thing to disprove. As for Devil's proof only being for Battler, that's ridiculous. I argue that it does help find the proof. If arguments can be disproven, naturally, they're not true. If they can't, they could be. This isn't something ridiculous like magic exists and every was killed by arrows and goats. This is quite plausible - that two people who look alike are never seen together by the only reliable piece, Battler, could be the same person.

>>3051345
I don't see piece Battler.

>>3051337
My theory: when Maria sang on the phone, three of them are still alive.

Later when those three run down to the room, Maria used that time to kill those three (and mutilated them).

When everybody arrived, she just innocently stand back at the back side and continue singing.

What about the very last death in ep 4(Battler). She gave a riddle, anyone figure it out?

>>3051352
Simple: the people listed as dead include Nanjo.
Thus the list was made after the trigger on the gun was pulled.
Thus, the red text doesn't exclude anyone from having pulled it, (perhaps on the edge of death), and dying quickly after.

>>3051349
>What's this trying to prove?

>>3051336
>the "Shannon" that is seen on present Rokkenjima is Kanon crossdressing.

>>3051360
>Later when those three run down to the room, Maria used that time to kill those three (and mutilated them).
That would mean that she is fucking fast at mutilating people.

>>3051353
He could have mistaken him for someone else.
He mistakenly thought he was a girl

There could be a number of reasons

>>3051366
If you're trying to disprove that with that screenshot, you haven't played the VN.

>>3051360
>>>/rs/Maria,+who+was+in+the+same room,+did+not+kill+them!
This has no exceptions for when.

Also I don't remember how far exactly the rooms are but it's rather unlikely there was enough time between them rushing out of Kinzo's study and finding the corpses for them to have been murdered in that window.

>>3051366
We've established that the only person we can just with any amount of certainty is game piece Battler's observations.

Also of note, if you recall in that scene, Shannon invites Kanon to play cards or some shit with them. Kanon of course declines, BECAUSE HE'S DISGUISED AS SHANNON, AND CANNOT BE TWO PEOPLE AT ONCE.

>>3051369
Kanon is a "new" servant whom Battler has never met before. But also note that Shannon didn't have boobs 6 years ago, which is why Battler became astonished at her growth in the 6 years.

>>3051367
The tricky question is: What kind of weapon did she use. Now that is what I am thinking.

Or the reverse situation:
Under what reasons do everybody rush into the last room? Because Maria's singing on the phone. So the sequence:
1. Kill and mutilated the three
2. Call the last four
3. Keep singing
4.
.
.
5. And Beatrice revived.

>>3051375
Maria
>WHO WAS IN THE SAME ROOM

Simple, take Maria who was not in the same room.

>>3051370
So the case has to be solved separately between the VN and the Anime? Okay I am out.

>>3051384
I choose the Maria that's chained in my basement.

>>3051390

Not really, but the anime still hasn't revealed some vital information about the nature of the events shown in this series.

>>3051390
The VN is canon, the anime has to follow. First of all, you have an unreliable narrator(the camera). Second of all, they're going to pull some shit like "IT WAS FAKE ALL ALONG" so they can conform to the VN ending.

>>3051390
No, but there are going to be fewer hints for anime viewers.

Also, Genji talks to dead people so that scene can easily be one of the (semi-)false ones.

>>3051390
I think you are confused. Just because the anime or VN shows those two together, does not mean they both exist. Unless Kanon and Shannon are both seen together by piece Battler, it could be a fabrication by the Beatrice, like so many other things that have happened that were fake.

>>3051398
Fuck me, "the Beatrice?"

I need some sleep.

SHANNON=KANON AND THEY ARE TWINS
EVER SEEN THE PRESTIGE? IT'S FUCKING LIKE THAT
THEY SWITCH IDENTITY THAT'S WHERE THE SURPRISE KILLING HAPPENED

And when they show KRAUSS KOUNTER in the anime, you'll believe that too right? You'll believe theres magic, because they show you pretty butterflies, and gigantic towers popping out of the ground right? The whole basis of Battle's battle is denying such things. You can't take these things at face value.

>>3051398
If you said that, then you already giving up that this case was done by human and Beatrice shall be revived.

I tried to trim any facts that's fabricated by magic or intervention by Witches.

Or maybe you're right. If that's so then all scene without Battler is just fake, including when Kanon and the old lady found out the corpses at the bedroom and bathroom.

Ok lets go through this again.
There is only 2eps where Kanon corpse is missing which is 2 and 4.
Ep3 Kanon corpse is found in the chapel.
Ep1 was in the boiler room.

Provided Shanon is samefagging as Kanon and Kanon was already dead from the beginning before the game start. All the people that found the corpse in the shed have to be on it. I don't see this happening.

Sure is hard to identify a half smash face eh.

>>3051417
>All the people that found the corpse in the shed have to be on it
Just Nanjo and Hideyoshi actually saw the corpse.
Nanjo is obviously in on it. That means we only have to accept one more.

>>3051413
You make no sense. At all. Because you're an animefag. And only get what the anime tells you.

>>3051413
I doubt the scenes piece-Battler doesn't see are completely false; even the pure-magic scenes probably have some grains of truth in them.
Though you get less sure as the island falls deeper into corruption.

>>3051417
Only Hideyoshi and Kanon saw Shannon's corpse in Episode 1.

>>3051413
>Or maybe you're right. If that's so then all scene without Battler is just fake, including when Kanon and the old lady found out the corpses at the bedroom and bathroom.
Yes. What's more likely is that Kanon cut the chain, killed them, then another servant drew the symbol.

>>3051424
Then prove me wrong that Maria wasn't the killer.

>>3051423
What about ep3?
I haven't bothered to go back and read who claimed to see Kanon and Shannon's corpses.

>>3051429
I forget, did Battler see Shannon's corpse? Did he also see Kanon?

>>3051429
Nah, the one that enters the room after that is Kanon and the old lady. Genji only saws Eva's corpses through door's opening.

>>3051437
Ah sorry, Genji doesn't even saw anything. He claims that he rushes to Natsuhi after he got no response from both.

>>3051411
if you try to explain the murder with parties it goes like this
krauss+natsuhi+jessica+kanon/shannon is a team
Eva is by herself
Rosa is by herself
Kyrie, Nanjo and granny is a team
Gohda is impostor Kinzo and hosts the game with Genji.
Everyone else are victims and never killers.

In EP1, the first party is responsible for the killing. However, Shannon died and Kanon went rogue. that's how he died.
Natsuhi killed him and the servants, when Jessica found out the truth, she killed Natsuhi.

>>3051432
For one, Maria is with Battler (and a large group) for most of the killings.
Second, since you're only watching the anime I guess you don't know about the red truths.

>>3051435
Battler only saw Kanon's corpse in ep1.
He saw neither in ep3.

>>3051432
Ur a faggot. Many things that were shown in the anime/VN were proved false in >>>/rs/RED. Are you saying because we think some scenes are fake, that we believe in magic? lolwut? Also, since you're an animefag, I'll tell you this.

>>>/rs/KINZO_WAS_DEAD_ALL_ALONG

>>3051444
Hence my question:>>3051390

Plus, of course the murder was carried at specific time and places, such as after midnight (sleeping) etc.

look, the killing not only needs to be logically possible, it needs to be logically STRONG.
which means you can't have Maria kill three adults because she's on drug or something.
Maria is never a killer. She's by Battler most of the time and when she's suspicious in EP1, it was stated in RED that she's not the murderer.

>>3051442
Jessica was with game piece Battler almost all the time in Ep1.
There is no room for her to kill Natsuhi.

>>3051453
The anime will follow the VN. The VN tells you enough to be like a mystery novel, where you can try to figure things out. The anime spoon feeds it to you, because tis paced, and TV watchers can't be bothered to sit away from the TV and think bout whats going on.

>>3051446
You fuck dimwit, its the reverse. I tried to solve the case that the case was done by human and Maria's the murderer.

Plus if you so believed with that, then stop posting at this thread, stop intervening, and even stop joining the argument.

>>3051460
You can't prove there isn't a drug like that.

>>3051466
but in the end, how will you feel if it turned out to be the truth?
the game can't be that pathetic right?

>>3051445
Correct but the thing is. Shannon can't use Kanon name because of red text.
>the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed
>The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
>A different person cannot claim his name!

And Kanon corpse was found in episode 1 and 3.
Thus Shannon would have to be killed in both ep1 and 3 before the game start to satisfy the not more than 17people with mystery culprit X. George sure is stupid if he can't recognize a fake Shannon.

>>3051465
MAybe you should just learn proper English

You said:
>If you said that, then you already giving up that this case was done by human and Beatrice shall be revived.

in response to

>I think you are confused. Just because the anime or VN shows those two together, does not mean they both exist. Unless Kanon and Shannon are both seen together by piece Battler, it could be a fabrication by the Beatrice, like so many other things that have happened that were fake.

>>3051465

Uh, so yeah, I need to reacquire all episodes of Umineko for various reasons. The old megaupload links I had didn't work and I've failed to find a torrent that'd let me download them.

Help please?

>>3051471
Shannon doesn't need to use Kanon's name. She's already dead. Kanon is using her name, not the other way around.

>>3051453
All the red text that pertains to episode 1

For the second twilight. Eva and Hideyoshi's death

Both were killed by another person!
It is not the case that, after the construction of the

closed room, one of them committed suicide after committing murder!

Furthermore, the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room!

No method exists for the perpetrator to commit murder from outside the room!

The identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed!

Fifth Twilight. Kanon's death

All of the survivors have alibis!
Let us include the dead as well!!
In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!"

"Kanon did not commit suicide."

Six, Seventh and Eight Twilights (Nanjo, Kumasawa and Genji's deaths)

Maria, who was in the same room, did not kill them!
And of course, the three were killed by other people!"

"Regarding unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed.
Therefore, no body double tricks exist!"

Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers

For the entire game

No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!
That excludes any 18th person.
In short, this 18th person X does not exist!!

>>3051465
Kinzo was dead all along. Kinzo was shown in multiple scenes. Ur a fagget.

>>3051484
Forgot one

Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games

>>3051453
The red truths aren't used until the second arc, which of course the anime hasn't covered but we're all operating under the assumption that you've played all four arcs.

>>3051483

Which is exactly why I say George sure is stupid if he can't recognize a fake Shannon.

>>3051484
The Kanon one is really fishy....
Accident or what?

>>3051492
George wears glasses. His eyesight is bad. He also only sees Shannon like once a year.

>>3051492
Shannon was murdered. He and Kanon (occasionally crossdressing as Shannon) are trying to get their revenge.

>>3051493
Kanon wasn't dead at that point.

>>3051462
of course there is. Natsuhi was making scene, probably to lure out battler and george to kill them.
Battler had all his attention directed at Natsuhi and Jessica sniped her mom from behind(who didn't anticipate it and thus the surprise death) in the head. Notice how plain this death is compared to the gruesome death earlier.
If Natsuhi is the culprit, it's most likely that she had hidden guns/crossbows all over the place and Jessica could pick it up and shooo-

http://bocom.mine.nu/umineko/red_text.html

>>3051493
In reference to EP1:

> Kanon did not die in an accident!

Courtesy of 34.

Question for anyone who remembers: what happens to Kanon's corpse after Nanjo fails in saving his life? I.E. could Kanon have faked his injuries, talked a bit, then have Nanjo proclaim him dead? It fits the red too well.

>>3051500
Only one gunshot is heard, and the children are together when it is heard.

>>3051472
Obviously you never watch a detective movie. I'll just said this once: the world does not revolve around Battler. See, I am solving this from the Anime's view, which most of you said both is (somehow) related and could somehow be compared. In VN, you took the role of Battler to see the things in depth details. In anime, as someone's pointed out, we're being spoon fed with details in different way from VN.

Hence my question: Should we separate the case between VN and anime? Because both provides facts in different way.

>>3051484
Interesting, I'll be back in a moment after studying this in detail.

>>3051484
>>>/rs/Kanon+didn't+die+in+an+accident
Thats also another truth from 34 in ????4

>>3051509
The next arc will teach you that Battler's narrative is the only reliable one.

>>3051493
alibi doesn't mean not being there. people can forge alibi and as long as the culprits still live and there are more than 1 of them. any alibi is false due to devil's proof.
>>3051500
also let me add this in: Natsuhi/Jessica put the letter in because she knew that some of the servants are aware of their killing.
Natsuhi killed the three of them and told Maria beforehand to face the wall. Probably when she sang that creepy song Jessica killed them or something. I can't remember who picked the phone.

>>3051510
Wasn't killed, didn't kill himself and didn't die in an accident = didn't die at all.

>>3051509
>>3051509
Go discuss with your /a/ faggots then.
The discussion here is purely based on the VN.
And the anime is based on the VN you fool. If you dont want to get spoiled just get the fuck out.

>>3051509
Yes the world does revolve around Battler because he's the main character.
You don't seem to grasp the fact that the way we're gaining information is through an UNRELIABLE narrator, we see everything from the Fantasy side. Piece-Battler is the only ones eyes we can trust.

>>3051509
In what you see, the VN and anime are from the same perspective.

It's never outright stated that piece-Battler's viewpoint is absolutely true (until midnight on the second night at least), but it's likely given that he has not seen anything magical and that he's the detective.

>>3051517
I like this.
It is consistent with the missing corpse in ep2 and ep4.

>>3051524
>because he's the main character.

I wouldn't be sure of that. We all thought Keiichi was the main character in Higurashi until Minagoroshi then we discovered that Rika was the real main character.

>>3051500
same timed shot
Natsuhi, knowing the servants are dead, decide to finally get rid of Battler and George. She ran away to lure them out one after another. The children being together is a weak proof because it was not state that Battler followed Jessica and George and never looked away.

>>3051509
Ur being a fagget. If Kinzo was dead all along, then how could Kinzo show up in any of the EPs? The anime is a summary, that will take you along for the ride, but it won't give you enough to figure it out on your own. You just wait for the next week's episode to tell you more. A game that can be read in one day or less, before you have to wait another whole year for the next release gives you a lot of info.

Quick question:
>Six, Seventh and Eight Twilights (Nanjo, Kumasawa and Genji's deaths)

>Maria, who was in the same room, did not kill them!
>And of course, the three were killed by other people!"

According to this red text, how does Battler knew that Maria did not kill them when he's not in the same room? Altruism to their relationship?

I meant, what makes Battler believed that Maria did not kill them?
In anime, Maria claimed in the entire time she face the wall and singing while closing her ears (as Beatrice told her so).

Does this scene's similar with the VN ?

>>3051536
it was an impostor.
it was stated in RED that he died all along.

>>3051540
It's the red truth. Beatrice has the ability to speak the truth in red. You cannot lie with the red truth but you can fool others by playing on words.

>>3051540
AGAIN, the red truth is the absolute truth. It can only be spoken by witches (and their servants.) It is an element introduced in the second arc, which the anime is not up to yet.

>>3051536
>The anime is a summary, that will take you along for the ride, but it won't give you enough to figure it out on your own
Ryuukishi07 has explicitly stated that watchers of the animu and readers of the mango will be able to solve the mystery, and hes keeping a close eye on the adaption so that you can. The anime has less information so less hints, but it also has less false leads.

>>3051548
meta battler can speak red as well.
it needs to be something he knew and was right objectively.

>>3051536
Every episode ? Dude, Kinzo shows only up to ep.2. Done. Period.

Or his corpses who make a cameo at ep 3.

>>3051536
>>3051536
Oh boy. You are gonna have fun seeing Virgilia danmaku fight with Beato and goat men later if you believe in everything you see.

oh and Battler when Beatrice tricks him into undoing himself

>>3051542
>>3051542
# No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight.
# No matter what the disguise, they would not mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo!

>>3051554
By episode it's referring to the games not anime episodes.

Episode 1 is the entire first arc would would be all 5 anime episodes.

>>3051554
EP = VN EP retard. Seriously, just go to /a/ already.

>>3051560
Krauss snaps drags out Kinzo's corpse before the siblings before going on a shooting rampage.

>>3051552
useful to watch the anime and see what information they omit. It could have been a false lead.

>>3051560
Krauss snaps, drags out Kinzo's corpse before the siblings, then goes on a shooting rampage, and holds Kyrie hostage.

>>3051560
it was settled in game.
Kinzo was authorizing someone as his avatar. Someone inherited his name. They didn't mistook him by sight because his face was ripped off and used by the impostor etc etc.
doesn't change the fact that he was dead all along.

>>3051576
can't be. this way you can't explain the phone call.
notice how Kyrie gave Jessica the instruction of the test, not Krauss.
she tricked krauss in the dungeon or somewhere. had him called jessica and then killed him off.

>>3051581
I think Beatrice just didn't counter that, I don't believe that Kinzo is a title that can be passed on.

>>3051581
I fail you see what point you're trying to prove. The namefag is being a "I saw it in the anime it must be true" person, and the other guy is using Kinzo as an example to prove that not everything shown is true.

I just noticed that jessica is just missing at the end of ep 3

>>3051586
She could have been forced to at gunpoint?
And the "misses" were keeping her in line until the end?

>>3051566
You didn't state it specifically moron. Your short attention span of inability to read from the beginning and the ability to enter a discussion without taking the facts annoy everyone. YOU get out.

>>3051545
I like your way of thinking. Technically, in my theory, as Maria's being hypnotized, of course her murdering was not done by her (as she's not concious of doing so).

I'll take it that the red text spoke the truth where Maria is not the murderer and yet Maria is the one who carry the murdering.

>>3051581
Blue is unreliable at the end, possibly other places. Beato let a lot of things slip, some of which were countered by Bern and 34.

/a/ is the same as /jp/ You can't have discussion threads without tons of game spoilers because 9 out of 10 people posting have played the visual novel. The only place where you can discuss the anime with other anime only watchers is AnimeSuki.

>>3051595
I think you annoy everyone, because you're an animefag. I haven't seen a single person actually support you or your anime theories. This is /jp/, why should I have to justify reffering to a VN?

>>3051581
The blue truth doesn't have to be right to hurt Beato. The blue truth is a statement that's considered the truth unless the red proves otherwise. Even if it's completely wrong, it'll still be considered the truth if Beato doesn't disprove it with red.

>>3051356
I wasn't replying to the Shannon/Kanon thing, but rather to the claim that you don't have to explain how Maria would carry 3 adults by herself because of devil's proof.

If you are content to deny the witch, then you can just say that you don't have to explain how Maria could do it because of Devil's proof. If you also want to get to the truth of the matter, you need to do more than that.

For example I could say that there is an automated spike shooting weapon off the coast of US shooting spikes at the island in Japan with deadly accuracy. I don't have to explain how such a thing could exist because of Devil's Proof. Just making up some theory and saying you don't have to explain things because of Devil's Proof doesn't get you anywhere closer to the truth. If you do want to get to the truth, then you also must be able to explain how Maria could have carried 3 bodies by herself.

>>3051601
Use your head a little, if I annoy anyone, then how come some anonymous above still object my theory? Plus so far, only you that make rude comment.

Eventually no one knows the truth (except ryukishi07). And therefore "support from everyone" just meant that the theory is being favorable by those despite being truthful or not.

>>3051619
How could you say Maria is the murderer when red the truth says she's not for the 6th, 7th and 8th twilight? You can't just ignore the red truth. If you've found a loophole in the wording then you have to tell it.

>>3051619
You can't prove anyone else is annoyed by me. Its a devil's proof.

>>3051611
So in effect what Battler needs to do is show that "These murders are possible for a human to commit." For the player it's "Who commited these murders, how and why." Devil's proof works for Battler because that's all he needs to show. He needs to show that it is possible for the events to be done without magic. it doesn't matter how unlikely the explanation is. Beatrice can of course shoot it down with her red truth if it's not the real truth.

>>3051601
Eventually no one knows the truth (except ryukishi07). And therefore "support from everyone" just meant that the theory is being favorable by those despite being truthful or not.

Plus you're saying /jp/ people is unable to accept a work by the same person (+Ryukishi07) about a same piece of work (Umineko...Koro Ni) but only in different format? My my, if I take your word in face value, then /jp/ sure is..

>>3051632
Why the fuck are you even on /jp/?

>>3051611

She had an accomplice maybe. I don't remember the details, so theres probably facts tat could disprove it, but something like:

Genji helped, because he covers things up (Gohda's notes)
Rosa helped, because omg my daughter is surrounded by corpses this looks bad
Or some other shitty example that won't fit because I dont remember the circumstances.

>>3051632
http://community.livejournal.com/witchhunters/5724.html

>>3051623
I believe at least some people are annoyed by

>how does Battler knew
how did Battler now
>what makes Battler believed
what makes/made Battler believe
>Maria claimed in the entire time she face the wall and singing while closing her ears (as Beatrice told her so).
claimed --> faced and sung/ had/has been singing
>Does this scene's similar with the VN ?
I fucked you're theory

>>3051622
As this smart gentlemen said (>>30515450): Subtlety.

>>3051632
Wow, you're delusional if you think only one person has been insulting you, and only one person finds you annoying. Theres at least one other anon who has been posting the same.

>Gohda's notes

what are these?

>>3051642
So disregarding the content, you believed my grammar is the only thing that annoy everyone?

>>3051642
I didn't say those things. I merely insulted a butthurt namefag.

>>3051652
Oh, the post has been deleted, the namefag said something like. "EVERYONE IS ANNOYED BY YOU AND UR STUPID. GET OUT!"

>>3051651
>you believed my grammar is the only thing that annoy everyone?
I did not believe (past), I STILL believe that it annoys those who aren't already annoyed by the content.

Fucking animefags that pretend to know something.
Read the VN then we can talk.

>>3051652
>>3051659
I just don't want to hurt your fragile maiden heart any further. Plus this discussion won't go any further anyway. Elitist asshole.

>>3051648
Additional Tips, probably not canon, but then again you can infer stuff from it as much as any unreliable scene. Basically Gohda moves in, he says something bad about Beato. Suddenly Genji calls him over because theres a magic circle and all the pots and pans are stacked in a "totem pole." Genji says, stuff like this happens, we have to clean it up so no one else sees. It also describes a similar even fro Kanon, and Genji gets mad because Kanon told someone else, not keeping it a secret. It sort of implies Genji is behind it all, but thats probably too much to take from something not in the game. At the very least, he likes covering up any signs of magic circles.

>>3051644
Do you not grasp the concept of the red truth? It's the absolute truth. If the red truth says "X didn't kill someone" then they didn't. Nothing you say will change that. For the red truth you don't have to provide evidence, it's just the truth. The word of god.

>>3051668
Please leave. Thank you, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

^_____________________________________^

>>3051679
Hes an animefag. He is also delusional and only thinks on person is annoyed by his idiocy.

>>3051668
Yeah. /jp/ is elitist.
Either lurk more or go back to posting in /a/.

>>3051611
>>3051627
you missed the end of EP4.
battler now is not satisfied with devils proof and winning the game.
he now wants the entire truth. who is beatrice, why did she do those things. what exactly happened when and where. what are all the motives.
you are joking if you think these things won't be answered by the following games. Devil's proof is lame and not an answer at all.

>>3051668
You are on /jp/ blacklist of tripfags.
Enjoy spam threads.

>>3051692
>small bombs

>>3051694
He doesn't even have a trip.

>>3051692
The real reason Battler wants the real truth is because hes insecure with his vague devil's proof truth. Beato has held back before, so he doesn't want to get cut off from his roots with the red text.

>>3051692
Maybe you misunderstood a bit, as I didn't miss anything about the episode 4. What I'm talking about is objecting to people using the Devil's Proof as "proof" for their own theories. Saying that they don't have to explain how their theories work because of Devil's Proof is a misunderstanding of how it works. As an example I gave the "I don't have to explain how Maria carried 3 adult corpses because of Devil's Proof post here."

Devil's Proof means that it cannot be shown that it is impossible for something to have happened. But that is a far thing from showing that something is likely, or that something is the truth. Devil's Proof is only effective for the Battler, who was content to show that magic wasn't necessary for the killings. It is not effective if you actually want to get at the truth.

>>3051729
But this is a mystery novel. There are sure to be unexpected things, and the author is sure to pick an unlikely route.

This Obaka guy is just trolling, stop responding to him.

Nobody has to be THAT stupid.

>>3051729
true that using lolrandum Blue won't directly get to the truth, but he can still use it to force Beato to use Reds to narrow the playing field down for him
>>3051749
I'm gonna go with this, it'll be fun to speculate but we'll probably all end up shitting our pants every 10 min by ep8

>>3051761
No, not anymore. Beato took a lot of hits from blue and refused to refute them at the end of EP4. You can't use blue to force her to use red to disprove anything anymore.

>>3051749
You still need to be able to fill in the details even if you pick an unlikely explanation. I doubt you'd be very happy if the eventual answers from Ryukishi in the end were similar to "Maria carried 3 bodies through an unidentified method X."

If you want to make a theory of what's happening in the novels, you should try to explain how things were done, and why it fits with all the other facts we know. Just saying that something isn't impossible isn't the same as making a case for that method. Being content with Devil's Proof as an argument won't get us very far.

Sorry for being a slowpoke, but I have a question for the
first twilight of the second game. How was it possible for
the culprit to kill them?

>>3051794
Magic.

>>3051794
Small bombs in food. Except these detonated when chewed upon instead of exploding in the stomach.

>>3051794
I'd imagine something like this:
Rosa=Beatrice. Rosa unlocked the door to the chapel beforehand and gave Maria the key.
Some of the servants killed the six by poisoning and carry them to the chapel for the halloween party.
Genji pretended that the door was locked while it was opened all the way. Rosa came with the key and locked it, then waited for battler to give the key to Genji to open it again.

>>3051817
>Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!

Maria opened the door.

>>3051502
>>3051484
I think they reversed some Twilights for the first EP. I'm not sure about what they did, but maybe it's something along the line of:
Kanon faked his death, and at the end, he meets Natsuhi. He manages to grab her gun when she's in the shock of seeing Kanon alive.
At that point he shoots her, and right before she dies she manages to kill him.

>>3051817
Thanks.
>>3051822
I don't see a contradiction.
The key used BEFORE it was given to Maria inside
an envelope.

>>3051868
*was used*

Thanks to episode 4 we can conclude that Nanjo, Kuwasama and (Godha?) were bribed, and thus, are under the control of the culprit, correct?

>>3053190
More than anything else they needed A LOT OF MONEY RIGHT NOW

Let's go back to the discussion on Kanon's death in EP1.

By the end of EP4, we have confirmation that his death was neither a homicide, a suicide, nor an accident. That leaves two possibilities: natural causes or a faked death. Assuming the first, it could be something as simple as Kanon being so shocked and terrified he was literally scared to death. Assuming the second, it leaves an opening to explain Natsuhi's murder, as we have confirmation it was not a trap.

>>3053284
Maybe he is not dead.
Do you trust the tips? It is not written in red.

>>3053284
like I said "everybody has alibi" does not equal to "everybody was actually out of the room" two culprits together can create a false alibi.
if kanon did not die at all or he was dead all along/kanon=shanon/kanon=impostor etc then things will get complicated. and anyone of those is possible. we need more red truth to confirm/deny this.

Umineko is a bad VN and you should all feel bad.

SHANNON = KANON
GEORGE = GAY

MAKE SENSE.

>>3053296
>rotten crotch Sally

How very appropriate.

Battler 2 is the culprit. He confessed right here.

Ushiromiya Battler is the only person left on the island. But there are two of them.

>>3053671
What? Beatrice said that line.

Stop taking the whole multiple Battlers thing so seriously.

>>3053671

"You are all alone on the island"

Alone = 1 person by himself.

Stop being an idiot.

>>3053693
She's levitating, so she isn't in the island

>>3053693
Hurr, the translation is fucked up, retard.

>>3053671
The original Battler was a butterfly, whose wings created a small gust about 16 years ago (This was Asumu's actual 'child' called Battler). That gust of wind travelled across the whole world, and eventually ended up being a tyfoon that reaches Rokkenjima and swipes Battler 2 with his head against a metal bar.

>>3053752
Add small bombs here and this theory will be perfect.

>>3053693
Alternate personalities and the like don't count as people.

>>3053735
I actually checked the translation for this one because it was kind of ambiguous. The original version of the line, taken literally, translates to something like:
"You are the only one person on this island."
It really leaves no room for doubt.

>>3053284
like a heart attack?

>>3053871

>>3053875
Maybe it could be poison. Does the "I" in the red text necessarily imply a person, or can it also be a thing?

>>3054205
Sure, why not?