/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Continued...

When the door is found in the morning the only people to see it, and the only people to ever be told of it, are Natsuhi and Genji. Natushi acts surprised when she sees the mess and does not stop Genji when he says that he will clean it up shortly. The big point is that Natushi could have easily said “No Genji, save this for later. Finding our guests is more important.” The only point in painting the door would be to have people see it and further convince them that the witch exists. Natushi lets the opportunity of more than her and Genji seeing the mess slide and thus didn’t care if anyone else saw it. That means that the only worth of the painting would be for Natushi to convince Genji that she did not do it, a result that is hardly worth the effort as Genji would never suspect her anyway.
Conclusion – Only Jessica and Natushi knew both that the Charm was on Natsuhi’s door and that the Charm would prevent anyone from entering. Natushi does not use the mess to her advantage where it obviously could be, therefore Jessica made the mess on Natsuhi’s door.

Krauss attempted to flee the murderers while heavily injured. He tried to get into Natsuhi's bedroom, but the door was locked. He tried to bang on the door, but he was too weak to wake her. By the time the murderers caught up with him, he had covered the door with blood and the murderers quickly took him away to get his face ripped off.

>>2928921

And they only cleaned up the Blood that he left behind on the door? The amount of blood on the door implies that he would have to be bleeding profusely, it would be everywhere. I'll look for the CG for evidence.

Right, and here's the explanation of the witch:

The charm works, the witch immediately bloodies herself on the door and walks away.

In this case, the witch is retarded. She was able to touch the door, so all she had to do was turn the knob.

But that didn't happen.

Say she REALLY couldn't do anything to touch the knob. Just get something to turn it manually.

Neither makes particular sense, so the explanation can be either. However:

1) That's an easy one. Anyone could have seen her have it. She walked back to her room to give the mirror to Jessica, right? Perfect chance for anyone to have seen it.

2) Maria is the only person we know that knows about magic. However, we can't prove that NOBODY ELSE knows anything about magic.

3) They did NOT need to know this. If we assume that someone knows about the charm's supposed qualities, then they just needed to see that Natsuhi had it, which they had opportunity to do.

Whoever is killing in the first twilight obviously has the intent of blaming a "witch" and that would obviously mean someone number 2. Therefore, the murderer knew number two, pretty much no matter who it was.

Essentially, that proves nothing.

There's a few weird things going on here anyway: for example, Krauss's death proves either that the charm doesn't work, they sleep in different beds, or that Krauss was doing something that night.

>>2928934
If the murderers were going precisely for the face, he could have had a large wound on his face (the dining room had significant amounts of blood in it). Using his KRAUSS PUNCH, he could have knocked the wind out of one of the murderers, covered up his wound with his hand, and rushed to go warn Natsuhi to get Jessica and the kids and flee. Of course, running through the mansion at his age with a deep gash in his face means the most he could do was struggle with the doorknob and weakly pound at the door with one of his bloodied hands.

>>2928945
>>In this case, the witch is retarded. She was able to touch the door, so all she had to do was turn the knob.

Beatrice doesn't actually handle the bodies, it's the retard goats.

The most likely cause I can think for the blood on the door would be that one of the victims, injured but still not quite dead, tried to hide in Natsuhi's room. However, because the door was locked, he couldn't get in, and before he could make enough noise to wake Natsuhi the killer finished him off.

Either that or Natsuhi is the killer who made the mess herself. Though this would make her suspect, so it seems unlikely. Unless of course she has some kind of split personality that did the killings for her.

Since we are having a Umineko speculation thread, lemme toss this one out there since it caught my eye and has been bugging me.

In the scene pictured, after searching through Kyrie's pockets, a bunch of assorted stuff comes out. Battler gravitates to the cigarette butt, since he recognizes it as a brand other than his fathers and things roll on. But, among that assorted trash that Beato found in Kyrie's pocket, is 'the stub of a boat ticket'?

Why does she have a boat ticket in her pocket? They didn't need a ticket to ride on the boat to Rokkenjima. And they flew from Tokyo to Niijima. So when did Kyrie need a boat ticket? I'm not a big believer in coincidence. And of all the random normal things to find in her pocket, 'a boat ticket' doesn't really mesh.

>>2928945

Speculation on top of speculation but...

It is unlikely that either Jessica or Natushi are walking around brandishing a cheap scorpion charm. If they were walking around with it the would likely keep it in a pocket or out of immediate vision. It is possible that at anytime a servant was monitoring Jessica and Natsuhi, however because Jessica only tells Natsuhi "I think it is supposed to go on your door" In order for this to work Shannon would need to report the effects of the pendant. This sits ok when assuming that all the servants are working together, but Genji is obviously not cooperating when he suggests that he clean up the mess and does so without significant delay. Doesn't it seem weird for Shanon to be cooperating while Genji isn't?

>>2928934
CG? This is Umineko, we only have one blood splatter. The anime could be taken as reliable I suppose, but the way it was described doesn't sound like one could do it accidentally, while trying to get in.

Alternatively, here's a simpler theory. Somebody goes into the room, quietly. As they open it they turn to close it. For whatever reason there's a ward against magic. They're trying to put the blame on a witch, and they think of something that will really fuck with Natsuhi / us. They close the door just as quietly and go get a can of paint.

>>2928967

I didn't originally give it any thought, but there have been theories that 'other people arrive on the island after the game begins', based on the premise that the dead aren't counted among the '17 people' so more people could land after the first twilight.

And we know from Ange's future that the Sumaderas want Kinzo's money real bad. Possible connection?

>>2928971

Yeah, for some reason I thought there was a picture of the door but there is not. The Krauss counter theory is pretty interesting.

The door is locked as Genji has to use his key to open it.
Though if someone could gain access to the room that would eliminate the 3rd requirement...

>>2928971
Why bother with paint?

It is pretty clear that 6 people were going to die that night. So if someone is going in to kill Natsuhi, that means at most 5 people have died. However, 6 people DID die. So there's obviously another source of "red paint" that would be easy to get. Straight from the source.

Remember that the faces were grinded post-mortem unless Nanjo is full of shit, he probably is, but what would the point of lying about it be? Someone would have heard if there was a struggle, and dying due to getting faced seems like it would be loud, so we might as well believe him. We can't be sure how they died at first, so easy solution: he drags a body with no cuts or bleeding going on to wherever, drains some blood in a bucket, gets to work, walks away, throws the bucket into the sea.

>>2928982
Yeah, I've been preaching my little theory that it's all a Sumadera plot to absorb Ange and the Ushiromiya fortune into their family for a while now. Though I'm wondering if I should abandon the idea that Gohda is working for them. Kyrie seems like she would be more of a double-crosser (doesn't help that she seems to be more level-headed and scheming than everyone else). Get into the family, have a child, get on the island, cut power, get main Sumadera agents on the island, kill everyone, child inherits fortune, Sumaderas become rich.
Kyrie's life or death status? Irrelevant. She works to serve the family, even if it means her death.

Did anyone else except Genji and Natsuhi see the "blood" paint on Natsuhi's door?

>>2928945
You're misunderstanding how the charm (supposedly) works. It repels magic. It doesn't just mean that the witch can't touch the doorknob itself. Touching a door isn't the same thing as opening it. For example you might be able to touch a barrier but not pass through it.

>Just get something to turn it manually.
She would have to manipulate the object with magic, and therefore the charm would still repel it.

>>2928999
Hasn't it been confirmed that Ryuukishi didn't hide anything like that from us?

I mean, Kyrie doesn't have a good track record of "surviving the first twilight". Seems a LITTLE counter-productive to kill off your mole that early on.

Doesn't Natsuhi have a mess on her door in more games than just Ep.1? I swore it happened in at least one of the others.

>>2928987
The murderer COULD gain access to the shed, Natsuhi's room wouldn't be a problem since the keys are next to each other if we assume s/he had no master keys

>>The third requirement is the lynch-pin. The narration shows that only Natushi and Jessica are aware of the interaction when the Charm changes hands. It is highly unlikely that Jessica would let anyone know about her sentimentalism and it is equally unlikely that Natsuhi would have time to tell anyone about something so trivial in the midst of the family conference. By this line of logic the only two people who have the knowledge required to paint the door are Natsuhi and Jessica..

You're forgetting one vital thing with this. The servants have keys to the rooms. If they were involved, knew about the charm and what it was supposed to do, and one of them had tried to enter her room while she slept, it's possible they looked inside when the opened the door, saw the charm, and changed their plan accordingly. So, rather than becoming a victim, they mess up her door to pull a little mind-fuck on her, which they would then do again later with things like that letter that simply said "Praise my name", and the last letter that compelled her to leave the children and apparently face the "witch" only to wind up with a bullet in her head.

>>2929037

>>2929003
Even better: then why scratch the door at all? Clearly, the door is not going to open that way, so the witch's only goal would be to prove that she's there, which she's already trying to accomplish by killing everyone, and if she's going to go through the trouble, then she should just do something crazy like leaving a corpse hanging in mid-air.

She could also create a key. That would be easy, and relatively non-magical. If you really wanted to get picky, she could just summon the one that exists and work with that.

Really, the only reason for the blood on the door seems to say "magic is the only thing that can stop magic". I could see a witch trying to get that done, but why do it in such a way that it would be possible for anyone to do it?

>>2929000

The narration only shows Genji and Natsuhi, furthermore I don't believe the incident is ever even mentioned to anyone else. The scene seems to have so little effect, but Ryukishi07 is a follower of Cherkov's Gun than it must have some significance...

>>2929014
Possibly. Well, there was some plausibility to Gohda being the mole. Gohda's promised gold if he completes this mission, and the Sumadera's decide to fuck him over so that they don't have to pay shit.

>>2929017
Wait a minute, I'm retarded. Natsuhi locked the door from inside so her key was inside the room. But there is really only one key to Natsuhi's room? If there are more, then the last closed room in Ep2 is solved

>>2929016

It happened in Episode 2 too.

Now here's the question: Why?

>>2928967
>>2928982

... If Kyrie arranged for some of the Sumadera's men to come to the island so they could wipe out the family and seize their assets through Ange, why does she die at the start of Eps 1 and 2, or at all in 3 and 4? Did someone else savvy to her plan and take countermeasures?

>>2928999

I think a Sumadera plot is almost a certainty. Kyrie probably arranged something, maybe a boat to get away on and then she can claim that she never left in the first place or something.

But the Sumaderas, from what Kasumi said and did, just don't seem like the subtle, scheming types, who would come up with this sort of elaborate plan and work it around Kinzo's epitaph etc. They'd just land on the island, massacre everyone, and be done with it.

I think the Sumaderas had a plan in place to do something like that, but the storm put them behind. Maybe the reason everyone still alive on midnight of the second day still gets killed is because the Sumaderas finally arrive then. Granted, all they find is a couple of shell shocked survivors babbling about witches.

>>2929055

Yes, there's only one non-master key to Natsuhi's room.

>>2929059

I only thought of this while going through my first replay so I haven't revisited what happens regarding the door in ep2. I'm going to go check, but does anyone know if there is anything important said there? Helps if anyone knows what scene it's closest to as well.

>>2929054
... Or, if you don't mind me backtracking to blaming Kyrie, perhaps Kasumi's behind the whole thing and has her whacked so that she can get a bigger share of the fortune for herself?

Kyrie's the brains of the operation, Kasumi's the brawn. And the backstabber in this plot.

>>2929083

Not bad.

>>2929083
I don't buy it.
If Kasumi really was behind it all, don't you think she would have absolutely relished telling Ange all about how she was responsible for the deaths of her beloved brother and parents? They were on an abandoned island, had Ange completely surrounded and apparently helpless, and clearly Kasumi planned on killing her in the end anyway, but not before making her hurt both physically and emotionally as much as possible. As much as it was clearly hurting her by mocking and tearing apart Maria's book, wouldn't also telling her that she was the one responsible for the deaths of the very people she's currently crying over make it even more painful?

>>2929083

I wonder if it is a coincidence that we first meet Kasumi in a route where her plan, for the greater part, failed. If it were a continuum from the 1st or 2nd games Kasumi would have gotten the money while Ange was still a minor.

>>2929123
Well, going from the meta view of it, it would kind of ruin the point of the Answer arcs if she revealed that the Sumadera family was behind it all then and there.

Though she may not be "responsible" per se, as it would have been Kyrie and other members of the family who would have thought of it. But that would give her an opportunity to gloat about killing her mother in front of Ange. Hmmm... I might have to think about this more after I get some sleep...

>>2929059

I could not quickly find the 2nd door scene so I think that's it for that theory tonight. When I get to it I'll review and make some changes based on these posts and the 2nd scene. This is such a minor detail that it has to be important.
Thanks everyone for your critiques/opinions

>>Though she may not be "responsible" per se, as it would have been Kyrie and other members of the family who would have thought of it. But that would give her an opportunity to gloat about killing her mother in front of Ange. Hmmm... I might have to think about this more after I get some sleep...

More than that, she not only didn't gloat over having any role in the death of Ange's family, she seemed visibly angered by the fact that her sister died before she could pay her back for running out on the Sumadera family. For all intents and purposes, she made it seem as if she truly and utterly hated her sister, and that hatred was a large part of the reason why she was getting off on torturing Ange.

Again, they were on an uninhabited island. As far as anyone knew, there was no one who would come and save Ange. If Kirie was a part of some plot and was working with Kasumi, then that would have been the one and only place where she could have dropped any ruse that may have been a part of the plot. Even if she didn't come clean about them working together, there would be no reason for her to feign anger at her sister's death, especially if she was the one who was actually responsible for it.

I am sad nobody has mentioned something I said before...

There exists the possibility of the culprit having absolutely no knowledge of the scorpion charm being on the door. Shannon was not supposed to be in the mansion, the shift schedules were changed by Krauss, with Shannon being at the guest house. Say they killed the four in the dining room and Gohda in the servants' room(I really look at Eva in this scenario), are heading towards Natsuhi's room, and find Shannon along the way. They're pretty much forced to take Shannon out in this scenario, and that gives them a nice even six. If they're set on obeying the epitaph, then that means Natsuhi is safe for the time being, but just to fuck with her and make it seem more witch-like, they scribble a bunch of bullshit on her door.

Outside of that, there's the possibility of Kumasawa witnessing Jessica/Natsuhi's exchange, and gossiping about it to whoever, all sorts of things.

Oh right, and a survivor clawing at the door seems way too far fetched to me. To leave blood on the door means they're bleeding, and yet there's absolutely no report of blood on the carpet or walls, it would be a serious hassle to clean the carpet if someone happened to be bleeding and shambling around, so if that's the case, you've really got to suspect Natsuhi/Genji for simply not reporting it.

>>2929191

That makes a little sense when you list Eva as one of the culprits, but "just to fuck with her" seems like weak motivation for doing unnecessary things during a murder. The whole nature of the door scenario is that doesn't make sense to do it only to freak out Natsuhi. The only plausible motivation for someone to go through the trouble is to atribute the bloody mess to the witch and they would need to know about the pendant to plan that.

>>2929206

Well, a message of, "You're lucky you weren't one of the six," is more what I was thinking of with the just fucking with her statement.

And even without the pendant, an unnecessary additional action seems to strike more of a witch than a calculated murder. To say, "I know where you are, but won't kill you on a whim," or something to that effect. Like the magic circles, really: completely unnecessary and a bad idea for a calculated murder, but a good way to simply imply supernatural causes.

>>2929216

In speculation fair enough

However keep in mind that the magic circle on the garden shed serves the purpose of hinting to where the bodies were. Without it the shed may have not been checked till much later. In comparison the shed is much more planned out than the door.

>survivor clawing at the door seems way too far fetched to me. To leave blood on the door means they're bleeding, and yet there's absolutely no report of blood on the carpet or walls

We don't really know how they died assuming the hacked up faces was really after death. Perhaps after suffering an internal injury, a survivor escapes and an injury caused by their own desperate clawing on the door is the source of the blood.

>>2929259
heck they might not have needed to be injured in the first place, but escaped after witnessing a murder, before being captured again. Her headache medicine is significant here, she was so doped up she slept through the clawing and whatever else happened at her door.