/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Mind of Steel: Alternate End to an Alternate Route (ILYA)

Yes, we know already so what's your point?

>>2886785
Mind of Steel: Pedo route

Mind of Steel? More like Balls of Shit. Bitch ass Shirou becomes a bitch made pussywhipped sucker. KAKKOII~!

>>2886814
...What?

Mind of Steel: Kill Everyone That Matters, Receive Grail End

Mind of shit: Coward end.

Its the end where you fucking give up on the woman you love and go fuck yourself. Other awesome HF fights following the events never occur. You also get to die an unappreciated death alone - never to become to true hero.

>>2886810

How can it be pedo route?You do realise in that route Shirou would kick everyone's ass,including Ilya's?

Sakura is the shadow. The shadow is an enemy. If you do not kill Sakura, the shadow will continue to kill people.

Turn your mind to steel and destroy all of your enemies.

Mind of Steel: for the "omg GARcher xD" fags.

>>2886877
>woman you love

But Shirou doesn't really love Sakura, as the route wasn't really supposed to be for her.

>>2886904 Mind of Steel: for the "omg GARcher xD" fags

Which is odd, as Shirou's chance of becoming Archer with that end is 0%

>>2886904
>I think ad hominem arguments are the best way to get my point across.

Cool story, bro. Personally, I liked Mind of Steel just because I didn't feel like being directly responsible for the deaths of HUNDREDS of people just so I can sleep with the cause of the problem.

>>2886915

Granted, Shirou's chance of becoming Archer when in HF route is already 0%, but pursuing Mind of Steel is essentially becoming Kiritsugu rather than Archer pre-death.

>>2886916
Protip: You are not, either way.
Small chance to prevent it one way, and choosing a smaller one to also save the one you love does not make you a villain.

Still a hero, just not absolute 'Justice' priorities.
He abandons his ideal, not his good will.
Fucktards everywhere hyperboling.

>>2886946
If you know the cause, and can easily remedy it, but choose to allow it to continue to exist despite the fact that it murders great numbers of people, in what way are you not responsible for their deaths?

I'm merely stating that I am of the opinion that killing Sakura is the right thing to do in Heavens Feel. It just so happens that the end corresponding to that decision is 'Mind of Steel,' therefore I can appreciate the end, even if Nasu didn't really flesh out exactly how Shirou ended up winning.

Ozymandias end.

Hmm,would Archer still be bitter with Shirou in this route? I can't remember if he did say anything to him after I made the choice.

>>2886963
Because it's by no means your job or duty to be the executioner, and by that point, even they know that killing Sakura does not solve the proble, just postpones it a bit.
And by that point, she is still someone who has the Shadow forced in her. Why is she not worthy of saving?

No choice is truly better morally at that point, the difference is concerning the path that Shirou will follow.

>>2886989 Hmm,would Archer still be bitter with Shirou in this route?

Probably, as killing Shirou as an arm won't cause Archer's existence to end. However, duty called.

>>2886994
>even they know that killing Sakura does not solve the proble, just postpones it a bit.

Now I wonder whether you have actually played HF

>>2886999

No, I mean supposedly the case which Shirou took Mind of Steel route.

>>2887003

The Grail still contains Angra Manyu. Sakura is just used as a way to speed up the process that Angra Manyu comes into being (beyond her original role of being Makiri's Grail)

>>2886994
I'm sorry, someone's going to have to refresh my memory here a bit. In what way wouldn't killing Sakura completely solve the problem? The grail would still be corrupt, sure, but at least the threat of Angra Manyu coming into the world wouldn't loom over their heads quite as much.

Also, they wouldn't have Sakura going around slaughtering people. That should be a plus too.

What makes Sakura, a single person, more worthy of salvation than the multitudes that she slays? The simple fact that you can put an end to the murders easily and expediently essentially makes it your duty to euthanize her. You don't even have to do it yourself, if it's too hard. You can have Rin do it.

>>2887011

Oh, maybe not bitter but certainly disappointed. At least if Shirou had gone down the same road as Archer, he'd die satisfied versus completely depressed and angry at himself.

>>2887011
Probably not quite as much, but I conjecture that he'd still be displeased as we followed the exact same path that Kiritsugu did.

Kiritsugu's path doesn't lead to being a hero, nor does it lead to a peaceful existence. It's one that causes your humanity to constantly crumble away until there's nothing left of the man you once were.

>>2887013
>just used as a way
Exactly.
>to speed up the process
That's where you're fucking wrong.Without Sakura as a gateway, Angra Manyu can not come out.

Of course, there's still Ilya, but he is going to get rid of her in that Mind of Steel anyway.

>>2887018
At that point, she doesn't slay people.
She is unwilling host to what does slay people.
Killing her for that just to minimize POSSIBLE casualties is the safer bet, but still has 'moral and justice' issues, as all preemptive strikes do.
And till the grail is destroyed, the danger of Angra looms no matter what. The danger not looming so much does not solve the underlying problem.

And if you want to protect people, what can yo do if you cannot even protect the ones close to you who are suffering?

Neither choice is safe nor easy.

>>2887038
You did play the other TWO routes, right?

>Kiritsugu's path doesn't lead to being a hero

I doubt it.

>>2887050

read the part about Shirou killing Ilya,retard.

>>2887018

>What makes Sakura, a single person, more worthy of salvation than the multitudes that she slays?

What makes that same multitudes of people more worthy of salvation than Sakura, a single person whose life has essentially been one of abuse and torment?

>The simple fact that you can put an end to the murders easily and expediently essentially makes it your duty to euthanize her.

Slippery slope

>>2887050

There're only two grail available, so what's your point in asking?

>>2887061
UBW.

>>2887071
Yeah,what about it?Let's hear.

>>2887048
By extension, her existence is causing people to die. In order to prevent any more needless deaths, the expedient thing to do would to be end her life.

It sounds harsh, but it's necessary to preserve the peace of the town; unless you feel perfectly fine allowing something to go around slaughtering the inhabitants of your neighborhood, knowing full well you could've prevented it.

Also, the threat of it looms, but it isn't possible for it to come into existence without Sakura. Ergo, in order to lessen the threat, again, you must end Sakura's life. In essence, the proper course of action is truly to euthanize Sakura.

If you want to protect PEOPLE, then how close they are to you is irrelevant. Such a vague goal like that makes it fully justifiable to kill the one in order to save the many. Now, if you your goal were to protect only those you love, then of course attempting to save Sakura would be what you would do.

However, can you truly feel perfectly fine being what is essentially an accessory to mass murder?

>>2887067

because they are innocent people who become the victim without knowing anything of GW ?

>>2887038 That's where you're fucking wrong.Without Sakura as a gateway, Angra Manyu can not come out.

Except Angra Manyu begins to do just that at the end of HF.

>>2887067
So her life somehow has more value than hundreds of others just because she was abused most of her life?

Okay.

>>2887089
Again. At that point, she is an unwilling host.
Condemning her for possible future casualties has issues of it's own.

>>2887081

You conveniently seem to forget the fact that by the end of HF, Sakura has already given it enough mana to manifest itself.Of course,that's because she ate half of the town for it.

>>2887067
One could argue that seeing as how Sakura wanted to die, we're doing a favor by putting her down before she loses her self-control.

Of course, whether it's more important to save Sakura or more important to save the lives of hundreds of people is subjective. In order to discuss, I happened to adopt the stance that saving the lives of the hundreds is the proper thing to do, since I enjoy this kind of talk.

You may be special in that you have no qualms with being responsible for the deaths of a large number of people if it gives you a chance to save a loved one, but I'm absolutely certain that such a perspective isn't widely adopted at all.

>>2887080

So Sakura wasn't innocent before being subjected to the hell she's gone through since her father abandoned her?

>>2887097
>possible future casualties

Not in this case, it isn't. It's a sure thing that she will.

>>2887107
Are you suggesting that by virtue of being subjected to such torture she gains the right to live on at the expense of hundreds of people completely unrelated to her in any way?

I'm not sure I see how that argument works.

>>2887097
She may have been an unwilling host, but that made her no less deadly. Whether or not she MEANT to kill isn't the problem, the problem is that she DID kill, repeatedly and in great numbers.

>>2887103

So a source of essentially infinite mana needs more mana to manifest itself?

>>2887106 One could argue that seeing as how Sakura wanted to die, we're doing a favor by putting her down before she loses her self-control.

No offense, but if Sakura really wanted to die she would have Command Spelled Rider to not attack Shirou/Rin/whoever decides to kill her.

>>2887107

Don't see how that works. They are innocent people, and she killed them.That is enough.

>>2886877
>You also get to die an unappreciated death alone - never to become to true hero.

A hero's motivation is never fame or recognition. It's doing what's right because it's JUST.

>>2887131
She expressed the sentiment, but was too much of a coward to truly follow through. However, I believe at some point it was explicitly stated that Sakura would abide by whatever Shirou decided when he, Kotomine, and Rin were talking in the chapel.

Which is why she ends up dying in the Mind of Steel end.

>>2887131
It's about the whole 'punching down the walls' that separate the place he looms and ours, but even without the homonculous storing of sous, it can be broken down since he tries to come out.

Also, no matter how much you people justify it, killing Sakura early on is the safe choice, not the 'good' choice.
There is never guarantee what happens next, condemning her for murders she did not actively commit is an isse, and it is by no means Shirou's responsibility unless he wants it to be.

The choice is whether Shirou becomes a cleaner, aka someone who protects the whole by sacrificing the few, regardless of them being evil or not, or whether he tries to protect the ones close to him.

Both choices have their faults, different priorities and require a great deal of morale courage.

>>2887142
Hmm, the problem with using words such as 'just' is that they're purely subjective.

Can justice and murder truly coexist?

>>2887131

This is where you show your stupidity of not playing the VN before coming to show your smartass.

>source of essentially infinite mana
>Angra Manyu
Nope. Read the fuck more.

>she would have Command Spelled Rider to not attack Shirou/Rin/whoever decides to kill her

she did use the command spell. Go play and find out what it was and why did she decide to use it at a last minute.

>>2887148
Sakura, at that point, didn't have enough mana in order to allow Angra Manyu passage into the world. Ergo, Angra Manyu is a looming threat, but not an immediate one.

However, with Sakura's continued existence, it crosses that boundary and moves into an immediate threat to all ~7 billion people in the world. Therefore, one can argue that the choice is really between Sakura and the world.

However, even when NOT put on that scale, you're allowing people to die simply by allowing Sakura to exist. I never said killing Sakura was a 'good' choice, but I did say it was a 'proper' choice. I tend to lean towards protecting the many over the few, especially when the few have a tendency to unconsciously become human-devouring monsters.

>>2887151
Sakura is a threat to humanity.
A threat that should be eliminated.


A bit off topic, but it's funny. The resentment people feel towards Shinji for being a violent rapist who loves breaking others to put himself higher on his pedestal...when Sakura's true emotions are just as twisted.

She's just as evil as Shinji, yet she's a martyr because she was abused?

She's killing hundreds of people who aren't involved in this war. She's a monster, and as such, signed over her rights as a "human"


Would you consider a Terrorist about to be executed for blowing up hundreds of innocent people injust?

>>2887176

If she really was a threat to the world, why is it not sending out CGs to deal with her?

>>2887176
Well, it also comes down to this:
Your friend is about to become a man-eating monster.
There will be possibly casualties before others can stop him.
Do you kill him so others are safe and you do not let him become a monster while killing your emotions, or do you do what you can to save him, taking the burden that is not yours?

Neither choice is really 'proper', just different priorities.

>Mind of Steel : True End.

Maybe if the VN was written by an American and not as as a clueless pussy-ass Jap's masturbation fantasy.

>>2887182
Cause as Archer points out, they are sent after disaster strikes and they clean-up.

>>2887188
There is no guarantee that the story itself would actually be good, and this comment is quite silly since the same pussy creator created teh characters, setting, possibility and presentation that makes a retard like you go 'Mature hardcore endings for badass readers like me'.

>>2887180
Like I said, it's tricky to throw around words like 'good' and 'just.'

Again, these words vary in interpretation not only from society to society, but from person to person.

Is killing a human being in cold blood truly justice? Also, your argument about the terrorist is interesting. Personally, I would kill him in order to prevent a resource drain and strain on the general population, rather than flaunt it as a 'just cause.' You don't have me convinced that murder is just.

>>2887200
I didn't say that F/SN wasn't shit as a whole. It is. But if an American wrote it, the "real" ending would involve gratuitously slaughtering people for justice. Because that's the American way.

>>2887200
You'll have to forgive him. Some people, including myself, happen to be slightly bitter that we actually get an ending where Shirou is fully determined to stay on a single path without whining for a good portion of the route, and then it just ends.

Sure, it says that he wins, but we don't get any specifics. I gotta admit, I'm bloody curious. How the hell did some almost magic-less wanker like Shirou defeat everyone in order to win the Holy Grail War? It's damn-well mind-boggling, if you ask me.

>>2887214
It's slaughtering people for oil and then saying 'Oops, no nukes' actually.

>>2887226
You do not actually know the result.
He may just die 5 seconds later.
And in fate and UBW, he does not whine about his path, he is actually fucking resolute to the point a certain guy wants to kill him cause he won't even reconsider.

Sakura didn't want to die. She couldn't express that because she thought she was being greedy. She thought she was already blessed for all the times she got to stay in the kitchen and cook dinner, because compared to the rest of her life, that was heaven.

If you think someone like that is of sound enough mind to decide whether they should live or die, why haven't you ended your own life yet?

>>2887228
Considering that Iraq's oil rights are being sold off to European and Chinese conglomerates, looks like the US fucked up.

What I don't get is how the novel can have three different "true" endings. Isn't the point of the true ending that it's What Really Happened and everything else is just some kind of an official fanfic? You can't have more than one.

>>2887232
>die five seconds later
>Emiya Shirou becomes a superhero

I'm not quite sure how that would work. Like I said, I'm curious about how this ends up happening.

I guess what I was saying earlier was that in this case, we don't listen to him constantly attempting to fight in Saber's stead or thinking back to the event in his childhood while constantly reaffirming his dream of becoming a hero. He just goes out and gets stuff down instead of explicating for another 1-2 hours.

>>2887226
Why would you want a long, dragged out bad end about a mindless puppet taking the shortest path to victory?

He turned his mind to steel. In other words, you just lost your narrator. There's no way for the story to continue.

>>2887256
Because it has three separate storylines. The "true" endings are how each storyline is supposed to actually end.

>>2887242
If Sakura didn't want to die, then why did she stay in the Chapel and wait to accept whatever Shirou's decision was going to be? Some part of her felt that she was truly deserving of death; or, at least, that it was be best if she were dead.

>>2887256
Explores different routes and possibilities, and the subsequent resolutions.Not hard to grasp
>>2887261
Or does he? He just emphasizes Shirou is about to follow kiritsugu's path (that was NOT without whining)

>>2887264
Because regardless of whether he's a 'mindless puppet' or not, I still see no way for Emiya Shirou to win the Holy Grail War. It's implied that he defeats absolutely everyone, which utterly confounds me.

There is no way in my mind that he should be able to do such a thing, not as he was at that point in the route.

>>2887256
It's multiple worlds. When you get a bad end or normal end, that's just because you messed up a choice. A true end is actually what happens in each world. That's why the differences in the routes actually begin before the routes split.

>>2887265

Yet all of those storylines are a recollection of the same events. Which one is real? Which one is the true Fate/Stay Night? You cannot have more than one true path. All others have to be false, it follows directly from the definition.

>>2887274
The same way Kiritsugu did it. Cut off all emotions and grab a gun. Send the servant out to distract each master and snipe them off one at a time.

>>2887281
They all are real. And they all happen. The Nasuverse explores the possibilities of parallel realities.

>>2887281
What kind of a limited imagination and perspective is this?
>>2887287
No Servant though.

>>2887291
And the fact that Archer even exists is proof of this.

Has anyone figured out what, if anything, Nasu was thinking when he named this novel?

>>2887267
Anyone would have thoughts like that if they knew they were responsible for so many deaths, but it doesn't mean they've given up their desire to live.

>>2887301

"engrish is hald ror"

To the people claiming killing Sakura is the most efficient way to save lives: It isn't. Destroying the Great Grail/Greater Grail/whatever the hell the thing that isn't the human vessel of the Holy Grail would prevent Angra Manyu from manifesting in the world of Fate/Stay Night, as that's what Angra is both residing in and getting all of his damn strength from the Akashic Record.

Doing that works so well that in every ending of HF where Shirou and/or Sakura doesn't die (and probably a few that either of them do), that's the course of action that's taken to stop future incidents such as the 4th and 5th Holy Grail Wars from occurring.

>>2887301
It's your fate to stay up the night reading this.

>>2887274

I don't think it was that hard, considering the fifth war is full of mongrels, women and children.

>>2887297
Then he'd take the ultra stealth route.

>>2887267 If Sakura didn't want to die, then why did she stay in the Chapel and wait to accept whatever Shirou's decision was going to be?

Wasn't she unconscious at that time?

>>2887306
Actually, in that case, the most effective way to save lives would be to kill Sakura and then destroy the Holy Grail.

That way Sakura doesn't murder large amounts of people while you wait for the Grail to materialize.

>>2887311
Shirou does not have magus killing experience, a willing lover that is a war machine and weapons, and you still have people like Kotomine in there.

>>2887267
Because she would do anything for him and he is the only reason she wants to live, if he wanted her dead she would die for him

>>2887315
No, she was conscious.

It was stated multiple times that she could hear everything that was said in the chapel.

>>2887311
Keep in mind that with that Shirou's current level, those mongrels, women, and children are MORE than a match for him.

>>2887309
This.

>>2887319
There's nothing to wait for with the Great Holy Grail. It's always there, always tangible.

>>2887324
Ergo, it can be argued that if Shirou wants Sakura to die, then Sakura wants to die.

So, logically, Sakura wants to die in the Mind of Steel end.

>>2887332
Really? I thought some sort of magic had to be activated in order for it to be in true form.

Keep in mind I haven't read this in a while, so my memory is likely fuzzy.

>>2887343
The Grail systems cathers mana to summon the servants and and to prepare to break through the 'wish granting' dimension.
The souls of heroes are usually used to punch through the barrier.
But now, on the other side, which should be colorless and inactive, you have a guy actively trying to come through.
Thus, guaranteed mess.
Consider that it's only been 10 years since the last war instead of the usual 50.

>>2887334
I hope you don't honestly think anyone would want to die just to make someone else happy, especially when it's obvious that it would actually make that person miserable, and that person is the most important to you in the world.

Sakura wants to live, but she'll let Shirou kill her because she has an inferiority complex which makes her feel that she deserves to die.

if shirou kills ilya and sakura before everyone else the grail would have no way of appearing for a while and nothing would happen at the end of the war

>>2887359
>I hope you don't honestly think anyone would want to die just to make someone else happy

Actually that's how true love works, Rand: you put somebody else's benefit over your entire worth as a person.

>>2887369
You'd get Grail Wars more often and more often, never ending the actual problem and threat.

>>2887369
I kind of doubt Kotomine would let that happen. You know he has his own agenda. What ultimately happens in MoS depends on what action he takes; he's the invariable final boss.

>>2887359
I was merely following the argument to its logical conclusion.

However, Sakura is fully aware of the threat she is to society, which (I believe) is why she left the decision in Shirou's hands instead of hers.

>>2887372
Even if you use that argument to say she wants to die, you can't deny that she wants to die for all the wrong reasons.

>>2887380
Is there a wrong reason to die? If there is, can it not be argued that the people she's killing are dying for the wrong reason; in this case, the wrong reason being the reason you used to allow her to live?

but she is still willing to die

>>2887383
Not reason to die, reason to want to die. There's a difference.

>>2887384
And I'm willing to go outside and get a job if I need to. That doesn't mean I want to, just that I won't protest.

>>2887411
You'll never pass an interview with that attitude.

>>2887435
>/jp/
>looking for job

>>2887636
>reaction image
>not reading the quoted post

>>2887435
>interview
>/jp/

Will Kiritsugu be proud knowing his foster son has turned into a mindless killing machine like he did?

I think not.

Stop spamming: http://www.AnónTálk.com/
>fdd igk ygjgb yh n ojfnmygfs hbgh ygi kyldk dfyn

>>2888534
Hes dead. He wouldnt know even if his foster son had steamy homosex with his future self.

i bet kotomine would've won in mind of steel. just think of how many times you're fucked and someone else helps. in fact he was there at the end anyway...

>>2888660
Kotomine wouldn't get involved.

Rin kills Sakura.


No Shadow saber, no shadow Berserker, no manly fight.

Just Rin, Zouken, and True Assassin.

>>2888673
Kotomine would too be involved. He'd be on the sidelines, smiling and encouraging Shirou's efficiency.

>>2888680
Well yeah, there's that.

But he wouldn't fight.

As I saw it, Kotomine said he would win for certain because Mind of Steel Shirou, alone of all the masters in the Fifth War, demonstrated that he had the kind of unbreakable resolve that births victory.

Consider:
-Rin: Approaches the war halfheartedly, as evidenced by her willingness to help Shirou in all routes. Has the objective of "not losing" rather than winning and doesn't have a concrete wish she desires.

Ilya: Wants to "take it home"/kill Shirou, winning is a secondary priority at best.

Kuzuki: Doesn't really have any desires in particular, including winning.

MoS Shiro, however has chosen to sacrifice everything for his ideal. That's why Kotomine is certain of his victory.

>>2888660
>>2888673
Needs a new Mind of Steel route path. Kotomine enjoys seeing this change in Shirou and becomes sort of a friend/acquaintance, later Shirou meets Caren for hot sex.

Stop spamming: http://www.AnónTálk.com/
>dmc m fp fjydjkgm h cyd gfy imbfysdnjcg ngg

>>2888902
Friend is uncharacteristic, and the end result does not change.

>>2888908
I dunno. I could see Mind of Steel Shirou and Kotomine having some sort of working relationship. Mind of Steel Shirou becomes like Kiritsugu and kills for the greater good, Kotomine is fascinated by the way Shirou causes suffering yet still thinks he's a hero.

>>2888919

At the least Kotomine might supply him with weapons or something

C-4 and the like.

Kotomine would keep Illya alive to the end, or at least secure her heart for the sake of having a holy grail.

Other than that, he would sit and enjoy the show as Shirou kills everyone close to him.

Then he would dunk Shirou in the black mud, and say something like "I never thought I'd be so lucky as to be able to kill Kiritsugu twice." Upon realizing that he did the exact opposite of his dream, instead following in Kiritsugu's footsteps and giving in to cruel reality, he goes into despair and drowns in the mud.

BAD END

>>2888919
I suppose that could work. Of course, they'll never be anything near 'friends' but Kotomine may still help Shirou. After all, Shirou's pain and suffering is his final victory over his old rival, Kiritsugi.
By becoming a superhero, he threw away everyone and everything he loved. He may turn his mind to steel, but his heart will still be of flesh. Shirou will suffer more and more through the rest of his life, betraying his wish to accomplish it. Killing people to not let anyone die.

That was Kiritsugi's mistake and, for a man that hated his guts and is happy only by seeing other being's suffering, there would be nothing better than seeing his son fall as well.