/jp/ - Otaku Culture

d'awwwwwww

I thought Sakuya was a lunarian? Or was that just fanon?

>>2831270

Fanon

>>2831270
Fanon

Sucks to be a human living in a youkai's world.

>>2831247
For a moment there, I questioned what having a period stain had to do with a bad dream.

>>2831270
unconfirmed, so rumors.

China would never let Sakuya die.

As if Sakura could get old.

If Sakuya has mastery over time then she can stop her self from aging.

Girls are mourning loudly.

>>2831366
Depends on how you see her ability. Just as easily, a person could say that her ability actually makes her own body age faster, or that her ability has no effect on her lifespan.

>>2831393
ಥ_ಥ

>>2831382
>>2831393

Damn you...

S-s-Sakuya-san can't die! She promised me we would grow old together and have children together...

hey fags you know what? your lol sakuya grows old shit is just as fanon as sakuya being a lunarian.
in gensokyo girls only fight happily and drink tea. they don't die or disappear.
except when it's mima

Damn you, anonymous. ;_;

>>2831382
>>2831393
;_;

>>2831465
Mima just went off with Youki. It will be revealed in the official VN.

>>2831366
>If Sakuya has mastery over time then she can stop her self from aging.
I think the general consensus is that since, when she stops time, but time continues to flow for her, she will in fact age FASTER than other characters.

And it's canon that she can't reverse time

>>2831465
They do grow older though.

>>2831485

So barring death by danmaku, Sakuya will be the first human to die?

>>2831515
I suppose that would depend on how much she uses/overuses her ability

Given that it's canon that she does HUGE housekeeping chores that would take many many hours at the SDM in an instant using her ability. I'd say she's got quite a large headstart on Reimu or Marisa.

>>2831530
;_;

>>2831469
Can someone /rs/ this again? gallery.gensokyo.org is missing it after their reupload.

>>2831530

Poor poor Sakuya

>>2831548
seconded

>>2831559
At least she might die doing something she loves.

Or if you really hate it, you could just disregard it and say she's immortal.

What if Sakuya stops time and dies?

>>2831579
Well, since it's an ability that comes from her, I imagine time would start once she dies. Sort of the same way a balloon you're holding down would just float away if, for example, you had a heart attack and let go of it.

>>2831548

Uploading now.

>>2831588
>I imagine time would start once she dies.
It would look pretty strange. You'd just be walking around the mansion when all of a sudden, dead meido appears on the floor just a few inches away from you.

>>2831619
is this awesome Y/N?

>>2831619
>Her body is still warm

You know what to do, anonymous.

FUCK YOU NIGGERS

Seeing old Sakuya made me sadface

;_;

>>2831619
This... would make an interesting doujinshi.

Hell, I'd read it.

>>2831619

...Good night sweet maid. And a flight of Fairies sing thee to thy rest...

http://rapidshare.com/files/248279075/Aozora-Market_-_Scarlet_and_Scarlet.rar.html

Uploaded

Would China mourn for Sakuya or say good riddance to a cruel taskmistress?

>>2831665
appreciated

>>2831530

Although no less sad, it seems the lady's maid will meet a quiet, peaceful end.
One day - perhaps still in her relative youth - while taking care of some particularly time consuming chore, she'll just go out of sight for a moment never to be seen again.

>>2831628
Cradle her head, call for the others, ans as everyone is mourning I do the classical "close open eyes of a dead person with a sweep of the hand", then lay her to rest?

>>2831665
>>2831685

It's on the wiki you stupid fags

Think about how sad her boring her life is

Time Stop

She starts doing house chores while everyone is frozen, unable to notice her even when she walks past them

;_:

We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,--
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.


Good bye Sakuya...

>>2831665
Thanks anon.
This page always makes me smile.
>>2831705
the link doesn't work

↑( ﾟдﾟ)ハァ？

>>2831732
Maybe she likes it?

This is the only way to keep Sakuya around.

>>2831628
She would probably be at least 60 when she dies. Do you really want to do her?

>>2831704
>"close open eyes of a dead person with a sweep of the hand"
I've always wondered how people do that so well.

>>2831739

Why does /jp/ know Lord Tennyson? I would've expected that Ever17 quote with the mother.

http://www.valenth.com/feed/461000/Balance+Elixir

>>2831665
Thanks.

>>2831778
-Kill people
-Practice!

>>2831665

I cried at the end...

Touhous need to learn to deal with people dying. Just look at Reimu.

>>2831781

/jp/ is more cultured than you think. We have power level discussions about classical composers from time to time and threads about Broadway and literature.

>>2831548
Strange, I got all their doujin links from yesterday and that included scarlet and scarlet, yet comparing that with today's links, 17 doujins are missing

>>2831822

>>2831822
>plenty of people die every day.

That reminds me. How much humans do you think there are in Gensokyo?

>>2831838
I hope I don't die that undignified. She should make sure the hat stays on next time.

>>2831469
This is probably one of my most favorite doujin pages.

>>2831841
>how many

You are not buying Gensokyo with humans.

>>2831822
Source

>>2831855
Oh, sorry.

>>2831848

>>2831857
http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/474163/2girls-alice_margatroid-broom-comic-detached_sleev

Sakuya has control over time, if she cannot reverse her lifespan more than likely she can slow her ageing down.

Marisa can probably make a potion to increase her lifespan or somehow keeps coming back from the dead ( resurrection, fought her way through hell, bargain with a devil... hell its not like death ever stopped her mentor)

For Reimu, undead zombie jokes aside, has a lot less chances for coming back. Her gods wont likely fuck with the laws of the universe just to bring one mortal back especially considering since she's only one in a long line of previous shrine maidens.

>>2831876
Reimu has a reality fucker as a friend and Marisa is probably going to become a Youkai. Sakuya could become a vampire.

>>2831876

Although Marisa's mentor cheated death in a rather peculiar way.
You can't kill what never was alive.

>>2831876
I actually don't see it in Marisa's personality to take immortality. She seems like the type that would want to have a limited lifespan just for the chance to have an absolutely awesome final death. I bet when she dies, she'll explode into millions of colorful stars as her Hakkero begins to unleash a Master Spark that engulfs all of Gensokyo, but is full of pure love, and no destructive power whatsover. When she explodes and the stars fly out of sight, and the Master Spark is done, her Hakkero will fall to the earth, and her hat will gently drift right next to it.

>>2831898


....*sniff*

>>2831898
Fuck yeah, Marisa.

Since Sakuya is a bit influenced on Dio Brando, she may propably become a vampire. Or maybe she already is one.
That would fix the whole "old age" problem.

>>2831924
It won't be a sad moment. As a matter of fact, every creature that's engulfed in the grand masterspark of love will truly understand the drive that powered Marisa. And every single will let loose a single tear of love.

>>2831898

I would expect Marisa to fall in combat. Maybe one day in her old age she'll know she is dying, so she manages to piss off everyone in Gensokyo. Challenge them all to a danmaku duel and go out in blazing glory. After the smoke clears only a crumpled hat is left on the ground and Marisa laying next to it with a gentle smile on her face.

>>2831841
That depends on how many settlements there are, but probably only several hundred. I don't think there are more than a thousand humans all in all, but that's just speculation.

>>2831898
Either that, or she actually goes batshit insane and takes everyone with her in a blaze of glory:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNfXV94cQFg

Reimu might be immortal already; wasn't there a believe that when shinto priests ascend to enlightened/celestial status, they also gain the ability to fly?

>She claims to be in her late teens, but this is unlikely judging by her refined manner and the level of her abilities. Rather, she seems to be a human who has been living for hundreds of years (*7).
>7: Since she is also able to manipulate time.

There, now stop it.

>>2832012
>>Rather, she seems to be a human who has been living for hundreds of years (*7).
speculation

Call her a Lunarian all you want, you will not and cannot prove it

>>2832012
She seems.

I actually think it's very likely that she's Lunarian, explaining the whole "human who has been living for hundreds of years", but I still highly prefer that she's a human. There's something interesting in having a short-lived human in a mansion of long-lived creatures.

>>2832021

I didn't call her a Lunarian, though...

>>2832021
I think he was suggesting she's a normal human that can manipulate time to the point where she can live for a very long time. Not Lunarian.

>>2832012
>Time manipulation
This, I suppose.

>>2832012
>There, now stop it.
We are not even fighting we are having fun sharing our various ideas

>>2832045
Sakuya dying is not fun at all.

For me, immortal Sakuya is the only Sakuya.

>To manipulate time is an ability to stop the flow of time and let only oneself move, to slow time and let oneself superfast, or speed the flow of time and change apple juice to apple cider.
In other words, her abilities keep the flow of time the same for her, while changing the flow of time around her, rather than slowing or stopping one's own time-line.

This, coupled with the fact that she refused to become a vampire to escape mortality, suggests strongly to me that she's only going to live a normal mortal life, and won't extend or stop her own aging

Maids are seventeen forever. Pic related.

>>2832073
I don't think that touhou vampires are immortal, though...

>>2832101
>Creatures of her kind forfeit their growth and maturity in exchange for eternal life. In other words, she can live forever because she never grows up.

>>2831990
Didn't Remilia offer her that option in IN? And she refused?

>>2832101

It would seem Touhou vampires are more Nosferatu or Bram Stoker than they are Buffy or Anne Rice.

>>2832105

... with the exception of that, that is.

>>2832138

Vlad Tepes should be generating his own magnetic field by now.

>>2832092
Only Nee-san (Kikuko) is seventeen forever.

You're all retarded, none of them age because they aren't real.

did someone call me?

>>2832484
Die, monster! You don't belong in this world!

Hey guys, remember me?

Sakuya can't manipulate herself to be immortal. But Remilia can manipulate Sakuya's destiny so that she lives forever.

Marisa is toast.

Reimu is toast too. She will simply be relieved of her duties by her next of kin, who will become the next Hakurei Maiden.

>>2832536
>Marisa is toast.
I like to believe she is going to turn into a youkai magician

>>2832510
Remember who?

Gensokyo = Neverland.

Discuss.

Sakuya's flesh may age and die but her spirit shall live ever on in our hearts!

>>2832536
>Marisa is toast.
From Perfect Memento:
>It's possible that in the future she may become a (youkai) magician.
Not really a confirmation that she would, but it may be possible.

>>2832546
Haha, I actually can't recall her name at the moment.

>But Remilia can manipulate Sakuya's destiny so that she lives forever.

Sakuya already refused

>>2832634
Shit, it's Satsuki... Yamada? I want to say Yamada...

>>2832634
She's Rin Satsuki from tsukihime

Does it matter? Some people live forever. That's what drinking a certain forbidden medicine does.

But since Sanae is already the most popular 3rd character and will be used continously from this point on in any new touhou games aside from marisa and reimu

sakuya is as good as dead

>>2832065
enjoy your imaginary Sakuya

>>2832684
Yes, until a cure is found.
lol

>>2832735
no such thing as a cure to immortality.
wouldn't be immortality in the first place if there was.

>>2832685
Sanae won't be the third character forever. She will be back, I feel it in my bones.

Aya has to come back, she has to.

>>2832735
>>2832785 is right
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Hourai_Elixir

it says it in there, absolutely no exceptions

The cure to immortality is nonexistence.

>>2832824
And the only way to kill an immortal is boredom.

>>2832824
that would mean they'd be dead.
they can't die if they're immortal

Not this shit again, Reported.

all touhous will die and turn to wavy ghosts, and then they will just have tea parties with yuyuko or some shit.

>>2832847
not all of them.

>>2832847
You forget touhous don't die when they are killed. usually.

>>2832847
Except for Mokou and Kaguya. They'll still be ripping each others throats out.
>>2832838
They wouldn't die, but they'd wish they could.

>>2831822
I can only find this on danbooru translated, where did you get this?

>>2832875
Let me clear up one thing for you.

if they can die via giving them a potion and then killing them, they are mortal. being immortal means there is no possible way to kill it, whether it's giving them potions later or whatever.

>>2832887
>>2832875
>>2832838
>>2832835
>>2832824
>>2832818
not this shit again, Fine, there is no way to kill them no matter what, happy? it's supposed to be like that canon anyway

>>2832578
Not enough pirates.

>>2832877
you mean untranslated, right?

regardless, seconding

>>2832838
non existence is not death it is not existing. It is going back and killing their parents, it is erasing any history of them existing from the world, it is complete forfeiture of their bodies, souls, minds, and any effects they might have on anything. It is not dying, it's fading away.

>>2832887
What if you went back in time and stopped Mokou from drinking the Hourai elixer? Would that mean, on this timeline, she's not immortal due to the possibility of going back in time and sewing up her mouth?

Because that would mean you'd be able to kill her.

>>2832933
that's impossible. Killing their parents would mean they wouldn't exist today, which would also mean you'd have no knowledge of them. If you have no knowledge, there's no motivation, meaning you wouldn't do it in the first place.

It's like going back in time to kill yourself. If you do it, how can you exist today to do the action? Same basic idea...

I state again, immortality=no way to kill it

>>2832949
I'm fairly sure Keine's editing history or whatever leaves her with memory of the changes

>>2832954
ability to HIDE history, not erase it

>>2832954
I'm not >>2832949 but I gotta agree with anon here. Elixir of immortality is an eternal medicine, you can't erase eternity

>>2832949
>It's like going back in time to kill yourself. If you do it, how can you exist today to do the action? Same basic idea...

If you go back in time and take a knife from that time and stab it into yourself, that knife still exists in that time whether you went back to move it or not. It's the same as if it flipped out and fell on you and you'd be dead and remain dead.

If you killed her parents, they'd be dead, you'd just forget why you killed them.

TIME PARADOX

SNAKE, YOU CANT DO THAT

>>2833002
you're not thinking outside the box here.
>that knife still exists in that time whether you went back to move it or not.

If they're dead, there's no motivation for you TO GO BACK and do it IN THE FIRST PLACE. sure the knife would exist, but it wouldn't be specificaly there because you would have never done it. It's as if you never done it at all...

You'll find some other motivation, or just do it for the LULZ.

>>2833002
impossible
Here's your child. Point A. teenager. Point B. adult. Point C.

Point B went back to point A to kill him. Now, point B is dead, meaning point C is also dead. point C can't go back in time to kill point A. they can't do it if they're dead.

>>2833049
THANK YOU!! THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN!!

>>2832964
In human form, can consume (hide) history.
In hakutaku form, can create and change history.

I'm pretty sure Keine can change history.

>>2833049
>>2833034
Doesn't change the fact you've gone back and are there. You might lose all motivation, but that doesn't mean you're just going to reset back to the future. You can paradox someone to death, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with it.

>>2833077
Only Gensokyo's history. Mokou existed before Gensokyo. Plus, the Hourai Elixir was made using Kaguya's power, right? That'd mean it's impossible anyway. eternity

>>2833086
no such thing as 'paradox someone to death'. The paradox means it can't happen in the first place. I'll make it simple for you to understand.

Adult killed child. Child is dead-->adult is dead. Adult cannot kill child because adult is dead. Child lives.

>>2833087
You win this one, I guess; Still, it doesn't seem unlike ZUN to bring in some other kind of time traveller down the line, and in most situations in fiction time travellers generally retain memories of averted crises or whatever. Them's the digs.

There's nothing proving that time is linear. In fact, killing your "past self" in seemingly "another" world should have no effect whatsoever on you.

The universe is just an ever-changing state. No past or future, except what we recall in memory and can interpret from continuing events, such as light from distant stars or even human things such as the political process.

;_;

>>2833121
Everything must go full circle. If you don't kill her, the one from the 'other world' won't do it either.

You're right about one thing, though.
>The universe is just an ever-changing state. No past or future

But there's one error you made. Everything runs by chance. If drinking something makes you have a 0% of dying, then it will never happen. Only POSSIBLE things can happen.

>>2833098
this all depends on whether you believe in the perfect timeline, the mutable timeline, or divergent timelines. There's no real reason to support any one of them over the other except for narrative convenience.

a perfect timeline is where you can't alter history by going back in time because history is already dependent on you going back in time and doing the things you are about to do.

Mutable timelines is what skynet is hoping for when they kill John Connor.

Divergent timelines are where any changes you make in the past cannot be experienced without sitting down on your ass and waiting. (Basically changing your past creates a new future without doing anything to your own.)

I've been arguing this stuff for a while. When it comes down to it, there's no way to kill an immortal. Some people say "Oh just give 'em a cure lulz". But that's just it. Being immortal means there IS NO cure. That's why they're immortal.

After all, if there's a way to kill it in any way, shape, or form, then they are not truly immortal. ZUN stated they are, so I'm leaving them at that.

>>2833162
I believe that our history shapes our future. Going back in time is possible, but you're limited to doing certain things. For example, you can't kill your past self, but you can...

Lets say you lost your carkeys. So you went back in time to fetch them just before you lost them, and then returned to your time. Well... that explains why you lost them in the first place. If it doesn't go full circle, it can't happen. This is a perfect timeline.

>>2833162
There is no such thing as a 0% chance for anything.
Even the chance that you split in two spontaneously is non-null.

>>2833192
impossible things have a 0% chance of happening forever.

A car can't go at 2 different speeds at the same time. A goldfish can't drown. You can't get to an end of an endless tunnel. You can't make a cherry pie without the cherries. That's a few examples, but needless to say, there are things that have a 0% chance of happening.

>>2832073

Until Remilia says "fuck that shit" and bites her in her sleep.

>>2833211
You win this round =_=

>>2833211
Like I said, the chances of those things happening are all non-null. This doesn't imply actual possibility or even any realistic probability though. No matter how often you try, you're not going to walk through a solid wall, even though it's not impossible in theory.

>>2833289
Well there you go. You said it yourself; impossible things cannot happen.

>>2833211

>A car can't go at 2 different speeds at the same time.
l2 quantum states

>A goldfish can't drown.
Sure it can, immerse it in a foreign fluid (like air) and watch it flop and die. Humans (and everything else) can drown in all sorts of things which aren't water.

>You can't get to an end of an endless tunnel.
For a tunnel defined as endless in N dimensions, an end can be found by examining it in N+1 dimensions.

>You can't make a cherry pie without the cherries.

this is just a stupid example since meatless hotdogs, etc.

>That's a few examples, but needless to say, there are things that have a 0% chance of happening.
nope, there aren't. There are plenty of things whose probability is _effectively_ zero since they are unmeasurably small, but that's not the same as actually _being_ zero. And whether you choose to believe it or not, that is an important distinction.

>>2833289
actually if all of your component atoms randomly quantum tunneled in the same direction and for the same distance at the same time, you WOULD walk straight through a wall. It's just not frigging likely.

>>2833330

So what is the probability of something having a 0% probability, without counting this probability or a rewording of this?

>>2833358

lolparadox?

>>2833358
The powers of statistics say that there is also a probability of something having no probability at all, but that this probability evaluates to an infinitely small number.

(which is a mathematician's way of saying "your idea is a bad idea and you should feel bad for having it".)

So, one way or the other, there MUST be something with 0% chance.

If everything has some infinitely small chance of happening, then what anon said should have 0%. But, if there is a chance of something having 0%, then there IS something with 0%.

If I'm wrong, then wtf math. W.T.F.

>>2833420
Something has 0% of a chance, obviously. Or it might just be the 0% chance of something having a 0% chance. Which overrides itself.

>>2833442
>>2833442

I JUST BEAT MATH!

I AM STRONGEST

>>2833420
Math 1, Anonymous 0

Honestly we're splitting hairs over a question which is for all practical purposes a completely invalid question. Don't sweat it too much. The Reader's Digest version is like this:

1) Yes, there are things which for all practical (and most theoretical) purposes will NEVER happen.

2) Math likes to covers its ass, so there is always a footnote attached to any YES/NO answer.

>>2833452
no, you actually just fail at understanding.

>>2833492
That was obviously the joke, baka baka

>>2833330
Shutup, now you're just trolling.
Endless tunnels, you can't find the end because it doesn't exist. None of that dimention bullshit. Perfect example of endless tunnel is a full circle.

Goldfish can't drown. Putting them in air will suffocate them, but not drown. It must be in water for it to be called "drown"

Meatless hotdogs? Well, duh, that can't happen either.

You're just a troll who's in favor of the impossible. Enjoy your twisted logic.

>>2833584
>Goldfish can't drown.
You're stupid. Fish "breathe" the air bubbles in water, so to drown a fish just get rid of the bubbles.

>>2833604
You wanna argue? Let's argue!

How many 0s does it take to get 5?
Let's hear your explenation. I'm in favor of:i it's impossible.

Don't say infinity, because infinite zeros will all add up to zero.

>>2833617
See, you should have used this as an example in the first place instead of that stupid thing about drowning a goldfish.
Of course there's no solution.

>>2833628
Well there you go. No matter how many you add up, there is a 0%chance it will get any higher.

Proof that 0%chance does, in fact, exist. It's called the impossible.

>>2833640
Doesn't make you any less of an idiot for thinking you can't drown a goldfish though, lol

>>2833654
Shutup. You know what I meant.

Originally, this argument started over whether immortals can or can't die. I said they can't. Some idiot said they can. And now it's over this possible-impossible BS.

>>2833671
Well, by definition an immortal cannot die.
For that reason, you can't call Fujiwara no Mokou a true immortal--she can die, all right, but she regenerates afterwards regardless of how much damage is dealt.
Her existence is unending, but she can most certainly die.

>>2833671
/jp/ - LOGIC/General

No wonder we love Umineko so much.

>>2833584
>Meatless hotdogs? Well, duh, that can't happen either.
Tofudog, motherfucker

>>2833654
Repeat it in red!

THIS IS THE MOTHERFUCKING NINTH THREAD WE'VE HAD ABOUT IMMORTALITY, BOTH REACHED AUTOSAGE

NO MORE OF THIS SHIT
NO MORE OF THIS SHIT
NO MORE OF THIS SHIT
NO MORE OF THIS SHIT
NO MORE OF THIS SHIT
NO MORE OF THIS SHIT
NO MORE OF THIS SHIT
NO MORE OF THIS SHIT
NO MORE OF THIS SHIT
NO MORE OF THIS SHIT
NO MORE OF THIS SHIT
NO MORE OF THIS SHIT

>>2833694
Zun stated she's immortal. Therefore, she's immortal.

What gave you the idea she regenerates? She even said it in the GAME!
Quote "I can't die. Nothing can kill me." "Actually, death is no longer part of my existence." the regenerate part is complete fanon.

>>2833717
You're right, I'm stupidly confusing doujins with canon. Good sign that I should go to sleep already.

>>2833738
Finally.

We've reached the final conclusion out of all these threads, which we'll be swing no more of. What have we learned?
1;impossible things can absolutely never happen.
2;killing an immortal is absolutely impossible by any means.
3;Fujiwara no Mokou and Kaguya Houraisan Are, in fact, true immortals.
I pronounce this
/thread

>>2833766
>>2833717
That's cool.

But I still prefer the regeneration idea.

>>2833131
;.;

>>2833775
Regeneration, reincarnation, same difference. They resurrect, whatever. As long as we're both agreed they can't die no matter what happens, I don't care.

>>2833766
>>2833717
Uh, yeah, I know you guys beat this into the ground, but so what happens if you cut them up? That would mean that even though they're cut up and mashed, they're still considered "alive", right?

>>2833787
>As long as we're both agreed they can't die no matter what happens, I don't care.
What if I accept this to be the truth, but disregard it for my own ideas of Mokou/Kaguya?

>>2833766
Hourai Elixir was not made by a perfect god. Eirin might have not foreseen all the factors involved in the process of immortality, so there is a chance this immortality is not flawless.

Of course as of now nothing can revoke this immortality, so she reached to the conclusion that the hourai elixir, in fact, grants you immortality. But this is not the absolute truth.

>>2833794
Funny you ask that. Marisa asked the very same thing on Imperishable Night.

"Immortality is like casting away the physical body"
Needless to say, it doesn't matter what you do to their bodies. They'll reincarnate in new bodies instantly out of nothing.

>>2833800
The spirit is immortal, and the condition of the body doesn't matter?

>>2833799
Actually, that's incorrect. Eliminate all the factors, and it's officially impossible. There are no flaws. Eirin Yagakoro literally translates to "infinite mind", meaning she's as smart as God. (it's in Touhou Wiki) It would be as if GOD gave his immortality into the elixir.

You stand corrected.

another immortality shitstorm

whos the troll that started it, congrats

Immortalfags: read Cage in Lunatic Runagate Chapter 4

Goddamn this thread sucks.

>>2833804

[Spoiler]Quote: Yes, after all, no matter what happens, I can't die. It's even in there.

>>2833812
So you are saying Eirin is as smart as God just because of her name?

OK.

Just saying that your definition of immortality can never exist in a finite universe.

>Touhou
>Logic

This went oddly.

-Girls are mourning loudly.
-;_;
-Can Sakuya live forever?
-What if Sakuya dies when time is stopped?
-Sakuya can be a vampire, Marisa can be a youkai magician.
-Marisa wouldn't want to be a youkai magician and live long.
-VAMPIRES!
-Immortality shitstorm.
-Drowning fish.
-Immortality shitstorm.
-Immortality compromise. Sort of. Without the compromise and more of a general "Fuck it."

>>2833827
Why not? It's an infinite universe, after all.
Immortal's can't die, Mokou and Kaguya are immortal. You're just trying to find a loophole.

Anything is possible fiction, even an immortal killing knife, NO FUCK YOUR DEFINITION

>>2833833
I thought the picture was Kakyoin when I was scrolling quickly.

I'm disappointed.

>>2833841
You still haven't explained why Eirin's imortality elixir is perfect or at least prove in some way that the immortality that it grants is as perfect as your definition.

Japanese ZUN can kill Mokou/Kaguya

>>2832818
Putting speculation on a wiki doesn't make it any more definitive than posting it on 4chan, silly Anon.

>>2833848
Troll.

There are limits to fiction. When it gets to the point where immortality isn't even immortality anymore, there's no difference between a mortal and immortal.
Thankfully, ZUN overlooked this, and made no exception.

After all when it comes down to it, if there's a way to kill it, it isn't really immortal.
Zun said they're immortal. There's no loophole to this. End of discussion.

>>2833787
Listen kid, nobody in the real world gives half a fuck about what you think of a fictional concept cept a few faggots, grow the fuck up

>>2833863
ｷﾀ━━━━━━(ﾟ∀ﾟ)━━━━━━ !!

>>2833877

>>2833874
>limits
>fiction
HAHA OH WOW, everyone listen to this guy, OH WOW I never thought people can be this retarded


I don't think you understand the meaning of fiction

Anything is possible in fiction, depends on the author's mood, and ZUN isn't the only author of fiction, so take your whale of a mouth and shut the fuck up.

He's a drunk arse anyway, wouldn't be surprised if one day he'd just kill them off for being shit characters like how he told people to disregard the games before the EoSD.

Still here, eh?

>>2833840
I actually liked how it started.

>>2833891
You know what I mean. When I mean 'limits' I mean how much sense it makes. A world of youkai and magic, I can overlook. But unbeatable being beaten just doesn't even make sense anymore. It's jibberish.
Zun keeps them immortal, bye the way. I'm a fan of him, and if you're just going to disrespect him, just leave.

>>2833916
ZUN said they are immortal, but you are putting your own definition of immortality and trying to pass it as canon. Read >>2833857

>>2833929
Zun said she made she made the Hourai Elixir who, whoever drinks out of it, will never be able to die forever. It's in the official works. Happy now?

>>2833916
>BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW YOU DONT SHARE MY CHILDISH WORLD VIEW

Get a grip, ZUN isn't even the best, nor the most popular fiction author, just because BAKA ZE PADS RAYMOO faggots like you praise his scrawny ass all day long doesn't mean his writing is on par compare to the epics of Homer, Babylonian myths, Persian scriptures, heck even J. K. Row. has more retarded fans than him.

And no I don't know what you mean, what you're trying to tell me is that the view of some Japanese guy define AN ENTIRE CATEGORY OF WRITING, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU THINKING? It's called fiction because the stories are MADE-UP, not REAL, and UNRESTRICTED by reality aka anything can happen depending on what you want to write.

If it doesn't fit your view, tough, the author doesn't care.

And since when did fiction make sense when it involves impossibilities?

As for unbeatable being beaten, a word is just that, a word with a generally accepted meaning, the meaning can change overtime, when writing fiction you CAN beat the unbeatable, else we won't have all these RPG games with supposely villians that can wipe the heroes out right at the beginning, if you wish go tell all RPG producers that they are WRONG, that all the villians should win. Good luck.

>>2833946
He never said if the elixir effects can be countered. So there is a possibility, in fact, Yuyuko says the effect is lost if a ghost consumes the elixir.

>>2833929
Officially the Hourai Elixir makes it so that the soul of the person who drank it becomes outside the cycle of reincarnation. That means when their body is destroyed it is instantly reformed intact. Kaguya and Mokou do not, in fact, die when killed.

You can kill them over and over as much as you like and they will never die permanently from it.

>>2833929
For fuck's sake, it's pretty binary. If it can die, it's mortal. If it can't die, it's immortal. You must be retarded to confuse 'hard to kill' with 'impossible to kill'. There is a difference. One can be done, one can't.

>>2833966
tl;dr. All I read was:
>unbeatable being beaten.
If it's unbeatable, it can't be beaten. There's a difference between "beatable over time" and "unbeatable". Same goes with "really really hard to beat" and "unbeatable".

People like you DON'T accept it's definition. You look at it as a challenge, searching for some kind of loophole or anything to evade it's definition. Obviously, a troll. I'm ending this here.

>>2833977
I just wrote a story, it goes like this

One day Bob ate the liver of an Immortal and gained Immortality, then Alice drove a range rover ran him over and he died, it just happed that the vehicle was equipped with a anti-immortal paintjob.

How sad, Bob is dead eventhough he can't, but SHIT I CAN WRITE WHATEVER I WANT AND NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT.

that is the power of fiction my friend, it doesnt nor it care to make sense

>>2833991
>tl;dr

Get the fuck out of /jp/.

>>2833991
Are you the same retard that discussed how Sakuya wasn't a perfect maid because by your definition this implied she had to be a perfect being? Stop thinking in absolutes.

>>2833993
If you can die via drinking an anti immortal potion, then you're mortal.

Being immortal means there are no acceptions. That's why it's called immortality.

Bob never became an immortal.

>>2833991
tl;dr they dont agree with me so they must be stupid, my meaning is the only meaning, nah nah nah nah i cant hear you

cry more kid

anything goes in fiction, I hope you enjoy educating the author of Highlanders that he is using the wrong definition of immortality

you know I hope he actually gives a shit

>>2834005
Nope Bob is immortal, I'm the author, and I damn well please write whatever I want

you have a problem with it? tough

>>2834006
>Bob is an immortal
>Bob died
>my definition is the only definition

Enjoy your twisted logic.

>>2834005
>Being immortal means there are no acceptions
Did you mean EXCEPTIONS?

>>2834013
you do realise logic can be disregarded in fiction right? thats why there are stories of dragons breathing fire with nothing in detail about how they are able to do so

Bob is an Immortal that was killed by a anti-immortal paintjob, how did that impossibility happen? it's called fiction and plot device, take a writing class and learn what a plot device is

>>2834025
>Bob is an Immortal that was killed by a anti-immortal paintjob, how did that impossibility happen?
It happened because Bob wasn't a true immortal. Generally in fiction when there are 'immortals' involved, it typically means cannot be killed by normal means.

As an example, vampires are often stated to be immortal despite there being any number of ways to actually put them down for good.

In Touhou, the Hourai Elixir is perfect immortality. There is no way to permanently put down Kaguya and Mokou. If you toss them into a volcano it just means a slight inconvenience and their body will reform completely elsewhere.

Logic in my Touhou?

>>2831822
>>2831838

Link to full thing?

Look, I'm only trying to make sense here. If Bob became immortal, and then Bob died, any normal person would conclude one of 3 things.

A: Bob never died
B:Bob never became immortal
C:Bob came back to life due to not being able to die

Either way, it doesn't make sense standing alone.

Either way, it doesn't make sense standing alone.

>>2834037
>In Touhou, the Hourai Elixir is perfect immortality.

You haven't proved that yet. ZUN only said they cannot be killed. But never said if it's possible to turn them back to normal, or any other method to counter the elixir.

>>2834048
Enjoy your denial.

UFO's final boss is a logic youkai.
Ability: Power to manipulate logic.

>>2834048
Actually, it did.

>>2834056
Where?

>>2834048
>ZUN only said they cannot be killed.
Uh, no he didn't. Kaguya and Mokou can be killed. They just can't die. Or else they wouldn't be able to engage in mutual murder as long as they have.

>>2834065
I'm not sure I follow you....

>>2834065
Then add "permanently" at the end. This is, as long as the effects of the hourai elixir are affecting both of them.

>>2834037
>>2834045
"true" immortals, is that your comeback? ok

>One day Bob ate the liver of an true immortal and became a true immortal, (rest of story stays the same)

see how easy editing is?

You want counterexamples then? Alright.

The Mummy movie, Imhotep was said to be Immortal yet magic stripped him of it.

Chinese mythology, a servant of the Emperor of Heaven shot down 8 of the Sun birds, for that he had his Immortality taken away

Vampires, destroyed permanently by Holy Water, most agreed stake in heart also gets rid of them permanently, yes even Dracula

Highlanders are immortal, but they can kill eachother

Even in Touhou, straight from the wiki:
>"However, her older sister, Princess Iwanaga, was tired of her sister's attitude, and moved to Yatsugatake. Since she had control over the unchanging, Mount Fuji lost its inextinguishable flame. This is why Mount Fuji is no longer an active volcano. And so, the Gensokyo's spiritual mountain, the Youkai Mountain, is thought of as the original form of Yatsugatake, before it was destroyed by Princess Sakuya."

WHAT WAS THAT SHE KILLED THE UNKILLABLE? oh dear, it seems that you need to go tell ZUN how to write, godspeed

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Cage_in_Lunatic_Runagate:_Chapter_4

yes yes I know, you'll just tl;dr because anything that doesnt agree with you is automatically false, I hope you enjoy your skewed view of the world and take it easy

>>2834078
It's not unkillable, it's just that it doesn't change.

>>2834078
Did you even read my post past the first sentence?

>>2834064
None needed. The fact they're immortal means there's no way to kill them. When it comes down to the cold, hard truth, we come to one of two conclusions.

If you can find a way to permenantly kill it, it's mortal. (mortal-liable to death)

If there is no way to kill it, it's immortal(immortal-not liable to death). This means it must be perfect in order to fit the definition. Otherwise, any way to kill it would mean it's mortal.
>>2834065
It's in the official works. There is no real end to them.

>>2834084
inextinguishable, look it up, what does it mean

>>2834085
you're a retard, theres no need to read

you're trying to make sense from fiction, since when did fiction make sense

Greek Mythology, tell me how did Zeus seduce a woman while in the form of a Swan, how does a swan have sex with a human female AND get a human female pregnant, explain now in detail

>>2834085
Thank you. Someone who gets it. Let's leave this troll. Obviously, he's enjoying this.

Enjoy your division by zero logic.

>>2834089
>None needed.

Actually, yes. It is needed, since you are trying say that your definition of immortality is the one ZUN is using to refer to the effects of the hourai elixir. Which is false until you prove it with facts, my lord. Where does it say that there is absolutely no way to revert the effects? And where does it say that this immortality is perfect and flawless, without any "cure"?

>>2834089
Your reasoning is flawed, because you're using non-standard definitions. Immortals are immortals because they cannot die insofar as they retain their immortality.

>>2834106
if a writer gives a solution to division by 0, will it be accepted by mathematicians? no, people actually have came up with the answer to x/0

but guess what, in fiction you can have y = x/0, since it's fiction

you're just running out of valid arguments, oh and nice sockpuppet

>>2834115
It was made using Kaguya's power of eternity. It's eternal. Perminant. Enjoy your denial.

>>2834118
Actually, disregard that. Many immortals are only immortal in the "unaging" sense, so even those statements are inaccurate. Nevertheless, I stand by the "your definitions are non-standard, so your reasoning is flawed". Immortals aren't generally considered immortal only insofar as they cannot lose their immortality and cannot die.

>>2834089
then tell me why does almost every story told from the beginning of time about immortals specifically mentions that immortality is a gift granted by a higher power and can be taken away by the same power

go, read mythology, let me guess, theyre not using the "true" definition right? why is it that your definition is "true" when yourself cant comprehend logic

logic and language are seperate for a reason, language is vague, logic is definite, you cannot apply logic to literature and expect a perfect fit, oops I used the world perfect, whose meaning can change depending on context

how old are you? 14?

ITT

>>2834120
Division by zero makes as much sense as digging for a treasure that was never buried. Same goes for permakill for immortals. There's no meathod because it doesn't exist.

>>2834124
After the effects are in play, can they be negated? If they can then by your definition they were never immortal, which doesn't really make sense. Immortals are immortal as long as they retain this state, but if in the future this immortality can be striped from them, they are still immortal until they become mortals again.

>>2834131
>how old are you? 14?
Says the guy who cannot even type using proper punctuation, spelling or capitalization.

Also you are arguing about the difference between apples and oranges. You are trying to compare Touhou to other fiction out there. In Touhou the Hourai Elixir is the be all, end all when it comes to immortality.

>>2834140
Immortality means they can NEVER become mortals.

Say that the elixir made their deaths no longer existant. And their bodies are unresponsive to any form of change until they're dead. Now, technecally, it's impossible. A cure would be like giving a dead body medicine.

Moukou image dump just to give this thread some iota of value, if that's even possible at this point.

>>2834152
But saying that something that can be striped from immortality at a certain point of time wasn't really immortal to begin with is taking the definition to an extreme. Before we reached this point x where said subject could be returned back to a mortal, this subject was really unkillable.

>>2834178
Well, he's basically taken a no-win position anyway. Even if he cites where ZUN uses that definition, it's not like authors/ZUN never go back on previous statements for literary reasons or whim.

And if he can't cite where his definition of immortality is used by ZUN, his position is again baseless.

Game over. /thread

>>2834148
I'm using proper punctuation and grammar now, happy?

Says the guy who think fiction must make sense, you're just nitpicking because you have no valid comebacks, since when did proper punctuation and grammar indicate intelligence?

I'm not talking about Touhou's specific meaning, I'm talking about how stupid you are in assuming that Touhou's specific meaning is globally recognised by all fiction writers.

Many fiction writers include immortals, the word, "immortal" printed on their publishing and sometimes these supposed immortals meet their fate in the story. Are you trying to call these writers idiots? Even if they are far more creative than you? Don't try the "don't judge by apperance" defence, you're on goddamn 4chan.

>>2834178
It's either immortal, or not immortal. If you can kill it in any way, shape, or form, it's mortal.
It's not extreme, it's just the real definition.


Say there is nothing to 'strip', and the elixir isn't a 'power' so to speak. There's nothing to take. They are quite literally, deathless. If having them dead was the ONLY way to change them, it's impossible, and they're stuck immortal forever.

If the elixir was a poison, Mokou and Kaguya would already be permadead.

>>2834191
Though I'd amend my comment slightly and say if ZUN actually stated that definition in a "Word of God" manner, then I'd accept it. That's a bit different from stating it within the context of a literary work, since making an exception to a supposed absolute in literature is a standard twist.

Moukou weeps at this thread's existence.

>>2834138
You're still trying to make sense from non-sense, fiction doesn't have to make sense, don't you see?

So magic shouldn't be in fiction because no explaination is given on it's origins and step by step breakdown on it's cause and effect?

>>2834205
thank you. /thread

>>2834205
If you want to get all philosophical about it.

What is real? Explain.

Why do you think this reality is "real", aren't everything you see, feel, smell, touch just chemical reactions? So what is life? Does life actually exist? Or is it just chemical reactions that happened to allow you, a "living" thing constructed from elements with no sense of life to feel, breath, touch and think?

Energy cannot be created or destroyed, when someone die, their body simple decompose back into atoms which are not living by any definition, so are we all dead since what make up our body isn't alive?

>>2834227
>>2834205
two idiots or samefag, you decide

>>2834238
Or, if we don't want to be philosophical, we could just point out that his "real definition" is shit and that "immortal" is used in plenty of other ways that have already discussed.

He's basically moved into a state of, "I'll repeat variations of my earlier statements while pretending that they haven't already been undermined."

>>2834248
I'm just amusing myself because I'm waiting for a friend to start the game.

Any fool using circular logic is worth setting straight, even if he never learn from his mistakes.

He's like a turtle, when given a view point simply dives back into his shell.

Kind of like a bible-humper.

>>2834248
Look, there are many kinds of immortality. And most of them are misused. Vampires, for one, are considered immortal. Things extremely hard to kill, are considered immortal.
However, all of those are able to actually die. It just can't be done by ordinary means. Truly, immortals are unable to die by ANY means at all. ZUN made them distinguishable enough. Kaguya's manipulation of eternity, the elixir of immortality, the phoenix resurrecting with Mokou. It's written all over. Even in the official profile. At this point, you're just denying it.

>>2834271
amen to that. Im going to bed, goodnight

>>2834271
You're still wrong, ever since ancient times, the meaning of being immortal was always not death by AGE, hence why immortality was synonymous with eternal youth. Read some ancient stories.

There is no one true definition and you're still trying to apply logical concepts to literature, you're still in denial, you can either go sit down and think about it or live on your own little world where no one else's opinion matter.

>>2834271
>>2834299
Really? Are you so desperate for validation that you would post an approval right after an argument, even without considering rebuttals?

Truely sad, enjoy your empty validation.

>>2834300
No, that's my line to you. I'm not wrong, you are. If it can die, it's mortal BECAUSE it's liable to death. Immortals are NOT liable to death. As I've said before, the term is often misused. And just because many people believe in a lie, doesn't make it true. You're one of those people.

Besides, other fictions do not apply to Touhou. Your argument is made null.

In conclusion, fuck you all. This was actually a nice thread before people started frothing about NOTHING.

>>2834319
Many people believe in a lie? Even the people that came up with the very concept? It seems that you're the delusional one here.

You act like you invented the word, a word represent a concept, a word's meaning change over time. If you really don't believe me about the "true" meaning of immortality, read some persian/egyptian/greek/hebrew myths because they are the earliest writings in which the concept of a immortal being is introduced.

However if you still wish to live in your ignorant little world, and all, be my guest.

Then Touhou doesn't apply to other fiction, Highlanders for example. So which is it, if I say Highlanders' definition is not the same as Touhou, then you'll say it's not the "true" meaning. Baseless defence and circular logic, you can't even convince a mule.

>>2834319
Is religion a lie then?

Is science a lie then?

Is the truth a lie then?

Nothing is absolute, what may be true today could be false tomorrow, if you want to stay in the dark theres nothing I can do.

>>2834320

By definition, immortals have un-ending life. ZUN said they are immortals, therefore no anti-immortal potion, no kind of death can put an end to them. He said it, it's his story, and it's in the dictionary. Enjoy your dimented logic.

Everyone who said there is an immortal in the a story and said the immortal died, either lied about them being immortal or lied about them dying. It's the ONLY way.

>>2834357
Narrow-minded and arrogant much?

I'm sure the author of these stories know more about their characters than you, grasping at straws now are we? You're still using the exact same false argument even when proved that the term does not always mean the same as the author intended, you still try to say the author is wrong and you're right.

In the case of touhou, you're in agreement with the author no doubt, but you have no right to call other authors wrong, because it's their story, you don't matter.

I'm sure the muslims believe that Islam is the ONLY way.

>Why aren't you praying 5 times a day! You're not so you must die!

That's how you sound like.

>>2834357
>BAWWWWWWWWWWW MY WAY IS THE ONLY WAY WHY WONT THEY LISTEN MOMMY

>>2834376
Look, I'm only saying what makes sense.

Having an immortal die is a false statement, in of itself. It's self contradictory. I don't know why you argue against this.

>>2834388
No, you're using the same "I CANT HEAR YOU BLAH BLAH BLAH" defence.

>>2834383
I've had enough of your bullshit trolling. I'm open to new ideas, but when someone says one thing, and then says something the complete opposite of that, I'm inclined to believe they're lying. Yes, even if it's a religion, a game, or whatever. You call it closed-mindedness, I call it logic.

Goodnight.

>>2834420
You'd better stay dead this time faggot. This thread better die here.

>>2834388
Well, I'll leave you with some wiki reading, I'm not using it as proof since it's not usually regarded as the ultimate authority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortality_in_fiction

Search the words "destroy", "die", "kill".

Why am I arguing this? Because you're thick and have a sense of unwarranted self-importance.

>>2834420
I've never said anything contradictory in this thread, you're just resolving to ad hominem attacks because you cannot defend your argument.

You have lost.

>>2834426
Then quell it and go to fucking sleep. It's 4:15 in the goddamn morning.

>>2834420
Closemindedness is the exact opposite of logical, don't kid yourself.

Whereas logical thinking takes in arguments and deduce facts, you're just taking arguments and refuse to evaluate it's factual value.

Just like fundamental Christians or Muslims or whatever, closeminded indeed.

>>2834437
Why don't you?

Are you so closeminded that you assume I live in the same geographical locale as you?

tl;dr you can remove immortality

>>2834434
Before I go,

>I have never said anything contradictory
>Bob is immortal, Bob has died
Contadiction right there. Enjoy your logic.

Oh, and one more thing. If an Immortal CAN die, what do you call something that CAN'T die NO MATTER WHAT?

By your definition, it's not immortality, clearly. So what is it?

>>2834448
No, I'm just fucking tired and running out of Moukou images. The image limit seems to be gone as well.

>>2834434
No, the very opposite is true.

I've supported my definition with logic, examples, and a dictionary refference. While you were arguing with 'closed mindedness' and 'you're wrong and I'm right' statements. Not one example have you provided that did not contradict itself. You're just a sad person who can't admit defeat.

>>2834455
I'll break it down for you to settle this if you wish.

1. About the contradictory statement, what I've said isn't contradictory as that story was to prove that when an author writes fiction, he can disregard whatever is the accepted truth. Unless you believe that fiction must be logically correct at all times, then you're in agreement with me, if you do not then I gave an counterexample: Zeus and the swan, unless you can debunk that story and prove that it's logical, you've got no rebuttle.

2. That story weren't trying to prove that immortals could die, see (1). Now, I myself agrees with you in the EFFECT of immortality, but I do NOT agree with the PERSISTENCE of immortality.

Just because a Touhou immortal's immortality cannot be removed doesn't mean that the universal definition of immortality mean the same thing.

Def. Immortal:
(1) Not subject to death
(2) Forever Immortal.

(2) is circular, no a valid definition. When you define a term, you cannot use the term in it's definition.

e.g. He's drunk because he's always drunk.

I've also give examples of stories where immortals were punished by removing their immortality.

I'm not going to bother to explain why "impossible to die means you can never take it away so that they can die" is a false statement if you're just going to repeat it as if it's some kind of proof.

>>2834488
Keep going with the attacks, I'm sure it helps.

Seems only you two are left, keep me entertained.