/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>2749355

Is this sin related to the crazy shit he did as a kid, and someone probably taking it to heart? Probably, considering that's pretty much the only characterization trait they give him from "six years ago", and thinking about how the drunk Beatrice over the phone tried to play along with his retarded English specialty and was surprised when he didn't respond properly.

Was it Jessica or Shannon? I seriously doubt it. Think about how badly Beatrice reacted when Battler said he couldn't remember shit. Here, Shannon is the only one who even remembers on her own, and she and Jessica have no problem loling heartily when Battler tells him to shut up, he doesn't want to remember that crap and he was just mouthing off.

>>2749355

I'm gonna guess that Battler's 'sin' which was stated seperately "From your sin, someone died" and "Because of your sin, many people on this island die" to mean that his sin probably led to Kinzo's death in some indirect manner... If Jessica or Shannon were molested by him because Battler never came back, and he was killed accidentally when they resisted, that'd fit. Beatrice's personality was born from the shock and stress. And because of that, the island massacre takes place.

>>2749391
>>2749380
I have a harder time believing it could possibly be anyone else at this point. Who the hell else could it have been? Maria was and is too young, George is too mature and is too interested in Shannon to go acting out some kind of gay lover murder/suicide pact. The adults don't take what the children take very seriously, even now. 6 years ago it would just be 'Sure that's nice' *pat pat*.

>>2749405
I should also point out here that if Beatrice is a hidden personality inside someone, that doesn't mean they have to share the same memory. And the person who created Beatrice may have shoved the memory of Battler's sin onto her, so they have no idea themselves...

>>2749405
I think it was a separate girl, not one of the cousins, not one of the seventeen. The "Beatrice" trying to play along with Battler's dumb English implies that she hasn't been in contact with him since that time six years ago, and doesn't know he stopped doing that a long time ago.

>>2749423
If Battler's dumb promises were enough to *break someone's brain*, make Battler into a scapegoat for all that person's problems, and schism their personality, I really, really think they would react to a direct discussion about it, with Battler waving it off as nonsense, with something other than "lololololol oh yeah you sure were dumb battler!"

>>2749422
Thinking that Beatrice is some separate person that has just spent most of the time hidden is just extremely naive. That's the same line of thinking that keeps getting Battler into holes. Beatrice is one of the 17. And Kanon and Shannon are seperate people, their bodies were found separately in the first twilight of Episode 3, unless we assume the adults were lying. And don't try some Hail Mary pass and say one has been dead all along or something like that, concealing something like that is why Kinzo's body was burned.

>>2749451
"Beatrice is one of the 17 because Beatrice is one of the 17" doesn't work as an argument. Kinzo in this episode proves that dead people aren't included in the count. Beatrice keeps her wording of the count careful, "no more than 17", why? Because the count changes every time someone dies. Ange's meeting with the boat captain in the future heavily implies it would *not* have been impossible for someone to get onto the island during the typhoon, say, after the first twilight?

>>2749451
One of them (Shannon or Kanon) could have died earlier.
Episode 3 is different from the rest, there must be a reason.

>>2749462
That reminds me. Any idea what the thing only Ange could see in the Captain's house was?

>>2749434
I have yet to hear a better idea. More importantly, remember Beato's red in Ep4: 6 years ago, for Battler, the person called Beatrice did not exist. She states in white that she hadn't 'manifested' yet. In red: The crime I am demanding you remember is not something between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice. How the crime can be related to Beatrice and yet she can state it isn't 'between' her and Battler, is pretty open to interpretation.

>>2749476
Uh, yeah. I don't think Beatrice was called "Beatrice" back then either; that doesn't make it any more likely that it's Jessica or Shannon.

>>2749462
But Suit Beatrice was seen by Rosa, Maria, Kyrie, Genji, Shannon and Kanon on the first day in Episode 2. Possibility is interesting but excluded unless you assume all of them were in contact with the REAL suit Beato and were all lying.

>>2749471
Sakutarou

>>2749482
And Beatrice was never seen by Battler, so all of those scenes could have been bullshit. And do you really think it's likely that Battler, Rosa, and Kyrie would *all* fail to recognize Jessica's face or voice when she's not even in a Beatrice costume?

>>2749471
>That reminds me. Any idea what the thing only Ange could see in the Captain's house was?

It is quite likely that it is a second Sakutarou doll, considering the red text in this scene.

>>2749471
yeah, it was something or someone who made her realize the truth behind magic (or something)

I have been thinking that the sin killed Asunu, have we seen any red text that would disprove this?

>>2749501
No red text, but Beatrice told Battler after his rant about Asumu and Rudolf that she didn't give a shit about his immediate family and that he should be able to remember his sin based on his location, Rokkenjima. Given her behavior as a whole in that scene I can't imagine why she'd be lying.

>>2749487
They see Jessica for like one day a year. And you might be surprised how much a little makeup, wig, clothes, change of speech pattern etc can throw off someone's assumption.

The point is, even if those scenes themselves are false, those people all still CLAIMED to have met Beatrice. And those scenes are how they conveyed their meetings to Battler and the rest of the family.

>>2749471
Pretty much another Sakutarou, which suggests that he wasn't home-made at all and Rosa was just bullshitting Maria.

What I'm curious about is that assuming the anti-fantasy theory is true, why is everyone trying to convince Battler that Beatrice is real? Nanjo does it in EP3, Kyrie does in EP4 and it goes against the grain of both characters. What do other people gain from Battler accepting the witch?

>>2749493
How would that end up there? Did Rosa make another one and accidentally leave it on the boat?

>>2749510
Except she wasn't even in a Beatrice disguise, she was in a schoolgirl uniform! And look, Rosa and Kyrie are both portrayed as being very smart (though Rosa hides it most of the time), and Kyrie at least went into this conference knowing someone would try to pull something, come on.

But you're right, all they did was CLAIM to see Beatrice, which they all could have done independently or as part of a plan for any number of reasons.

There are three prevailing theories I seem to encounter:
!.Hinamizawa syndrome, people are suffering from hallucinations of an unknown cause
2.Kohaku series Master plan, a revenge planned by one of the 17 suffering from delusions
3.Conspiracy of person X's off-island brigade in which an invasion takes place after the first twilight
{spoiler]
All these have the One-Winged Eagle servants and Maria as accomplices and Kinzo daed [/spoiler]

>>2749511
>>2749498
>>2749493

No. No no no. What she saw was not a second Sakutarou, but rather, just some simple cloth, and maybe a red muffler. She tailored the new Sakutarou herself, hence the 'Witch of Resurrection" bit.

>>2749511
"Beatrice" probably planned on keeping Battler alive. Since he'd be the only remaining witness of the events, filling his account with magic and witches is a good way to discredit him and keep the mystery intact forever.

>>2749511
now that you mention it that might be true, considering that she's with her boyfriend and don't have time to sew one

I also like the theory that there are perhaps up to 4 different killers on the island.

The Head Smasher/Gouger: This person seems to be trusted by Maria, see the 9th Twilight of Ep1. They must be the same person posing as Beatrice, and are giving her the letters etc.

The "Shooter": Someone is gunning people down with clean, efficient shots. This person appears to be the one who favors elaborate closed rooms. Killings by other killers don't seem terribly concerned with this. For examples, see the ep1 Second Twilight, ep3 First Twilight, and ep4 Ninth Twilight.

The Poisoner: Someone is killing in a way that seems to leave the body mostly intact. They have some means of sedating and/or poisoning people to death. This seems to suggest they have ways to ensure that people take the poison without putting up too much of a fight... this killer may be getting co-opted by...

The Staker: May not be any of these people. May not even be a killer. After all, it'd be much easier to follow the killers around and stake the bodies afterwards. If this person's goal is to make the murders appear to be a ritual, it might be easier to just let them work and then shove some stakes in. Poisoner may be involved because some people are killed and staked in non-fatal areas with no signs of other wounds. Now who could be doing this?

>>2749562
some of these may be the same and also the poisoner could be many people since the magic side would have us believe that theres a non-violent method to kill by pressing something the chest that Ronoue uses.

>>2749596
That's just a a bullet wound.

>>2749462
Wasn't it said in red that once the typhoon hits, the island is closed off from the outside, period ?

As for the Sakutarou in the captain's house thing: red text:
Your stuffed animal is a special stuffed animal. The only one in the world, made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday.
Maybe you can play with the wording, though, who knows.

>>2749562
You left out the Small Bomber

>>2749667
As far as I remember, nobody said in red that they couldn't leave Rokkenjima. We just thought that there was no way to leave with the typhoon, but now that we know the existence of underground passages it's different.

>>2749667
>Wasn't it said in red that once the typhoon hits, the island is closed off from the outside, period ?

No, it wasn't. Beatrice makes a big show of crowing about that, but it's never stated in red.

>>2749690
hell if Kinzo could build a 2km tunnel to the hidden mansion, he could probably have one to the mainland

>>2749690
>>2749723
THERES NO PROOF TUNNELS EXIST

>>2749738
There's no proof that tunnels don't exist!
It's a Devil's Proof! I refuse to explain!

>>2749723
Yeah, I wouldn't put that past grandfather!

>>2749743
The Devil's Proof is nothing a means to blindly follow any path that isn't completely blocked, even if you know it's a dead end. Don't just try to prove that it's possible, but FIND THE TRUTH.

>>2749746
he invented small bombs

>>2749758
small bombs were used in its construction!

>>2749758
>>2749765
Any obstruction can be blasted apart with small bombs!

>>2749738
>>2749765
I love how Battler's theories are actually more fun to follow than figuring out what happened
same person btw

Let me post here briefly the basic 'rules' of mystery novels, as Beatrice once implied she follows them.

Father Knox's Ten Commandments:

I. The criminal must be someone mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to follow;
II. All supernatural or preternatural agencies are ruled out as a matter of course;
III. No more than one secret room or passage is allowable. I would add that a secret passage should not be brought in at all unless the action takes place in the kind of house where such devices might be expected;
IV. No hitherto undiscovered poisons may be used, nor any appliance which will need a long scientific explanation at the end;
V. No Chinaman must figure into the story*;
VI. No accident must ever help the detective, nor must he ever have an unaccountable intuition which proves to be right;
VII. The detective must not, himself, commit the crime;
VIII. The detective must not light on any clues which are not instantly produced for the inspection of the reader;
IX. The stupid friend of the detective, the Watson, must not conceal any thoughts which pass through his mind; his intelligence must be slightly, but only very slightly, below that of the average reader;
X. Twin brothers, and doubles generally, must not appear unless we have been duly prepared for them
*In Msgr. Knox's time, one of the most overused plot mechanisms was the introduction of "a Chinaman" or other foreign, exotic or otherwise unusual character from "another land" as the malefactor. This comment was not intended as a "racist" one, but as a reaction to this plotting mechanism.

What I find quite odd concerning the staking and the epitaph is that in EP4 the stakes were not proportioned out to various targets as they had been in every previous episode. Further, the second twilight claiming George and Jessica? Them, close? Really? Don't they see eachother for just this one time a year? I call bullshit.

>>2749804
But multiple secret passages are indicated to exist, as Nanjo mentioned in EP4 that the well wasn't his usual exit.

The stakes have taken backseat since ep3 and the culprit has become increasingly practical even dropping them next to the target.
The obvious conclusion is that the "accomplices" don't really care,

So how did she go from this to ordering others to kill people? Also, where are her hands?

I didn't feel like making a new thread for this.

>>2749849
It was an act.

>>2749820
One secret passage CAN have multiple exits. Nanjo still knew how to navigate the tunnels, even if they weren't taking the usual way out.

>>2749820
Did someone die in Episode 4's first twilight that didn't die in the first through third? I'm not really coming up with anyone. All the parents and servants have died in the first twilight of various games, and the stakings have continued. I'm a bit confused by that. Nanjo is the only suspect that I can really think of- he lives through all the first twilights. In Episode 4 however, he's imprisoned right after. Presumably. If someone else took over staking duties, they may not have been so meticulous.

>>2749820
There was also the secret passage Eva and Rosa found in episode 3. They might be the same thing, but it didn't really seem like that passage went anywhere but to the gold room.

>>2749884
No one is found with stakes in them until after the escape. You can't count out Nanjo or anyone.

>>2749884
When you have at least three exits, I think it counts as more than one passage.

>>2749562
Little side note. The gouger/headsmasher person probably not only has Maria's trust, they never kill her either. Maria lives through the 9th twilight in EP1, she helps murderer get into and out of the chapel in the 1st twilight in EP2, and she carries various letters throughout. Whoever is using poison also seems to care about Maria, but still kills her.

Not sure where to post this, but there are a few Easter Eggs in the character sheet that you can see after Episode 4. If you go to the one with all the witches, and continuously hit the "Execute" button on any of the witches, it executes Sakutarou. Also, if you hit the "Revive" button on Siesta 556, you can see what she looked like when she was alive.

>>2749912
>If you go to the one with all the witches, and continuously hit the "Execute" button on any of the witches, it executes Sakutarou.
I noticed this too and thought it was a glitch. I remember once doing something in an earlier episode that executed everyone and thought it might be the same thing since on that screen only Sakutaro dies. It also changes Maria's clothes.

Honestly I think 'secret passage' refers more to such mechanisms like a doorway behind a bookshelf, a passage that opens when you pull a lever, or a rotating fireplace, things like that. Ryuukishi might just be trying to sidestep the definition a bit. The passageway isn't exactly 'hidden' its just not easily recognized as a passage.

On an off topic but somewhat related point, I had a thought regarding 'Kanon's red laser' he that was used to break out. What if that was referring to the laser sighting of a gun? If he was the one holding the others prisoner, they may have disarmed him and used his gun to shoot the locks off. Or Kanon may have disarmed whoever was holding them prisoner and been the one 'using the red laser' to break down the gates.

>>2749956
Oh, the thing I was thinking of was episode one, if you hit execute without selecting anyone it kills them all.

>>2749956
>>2749912

Hitting "Execute" or "Revive" after clicking the background (i.e. after clicking a character, click somewhere that is not a character or button) will execute/revive everyone at once.
Omni-Revive has a custom sound effect, too. SHWEP.

>>2749964
>The passageway isn't exactly 'hidden' its just not easily recognized as a passage.

That's what "hidden" means.

>>2749968
Yeah, that's it. It seems that the meta world screen of episode 4 is just bugged because it considers hitting the execute button to also be hitting the background, causing the second press to kill everyone.

>>2749804
This guy would have punched the Death Note writer right in the face.
>>2749884
Although this is the type of thing that seems so obvious that it's likely to NOT be true, it seems inevitable that Maria is an accomplice; I think it's her. (This fits especially well in Ep1 when they find her singing in the corner of the room)

>>2749993
Never considered that Maria could be the staker.

But it would be difficult. She's got to get a glorified ice pick through skin and muscle and bone. Some of them are in shallowly, especially in EP4, but many are buried to the hilts. And they are long too, didn't Battler describe them as being like 20cm long? Unless she had some kind of tool that can shoot them in, it seems unlikely.

>>2750025

>Unless she had some kind of tool that can shoot them in

DEVIL'S PROOF

>>2750036

>>2750025
Stake.

>>2750049
Ah cool, thanks, I see, 20cm doesn't mean the actual 'pick' was 20cm in length... I had envisioned something a bit longer and narrower. Having that thing jammed into you would have to hurt.

>>2749884
There's Eva

>>2750036
>>2750025
Come on, this one is TOO EASY.
I don't even need to say what sort of bombs they are

DENY THE WITCH

with large bombs

>>2750118
Wait, if you're talking about people who died in the 4th but not 1-3, she dies in 2; that one is all the married couples.

>>2749875
Wouldn't the profile description of her past change afterwards?

Battler's sin is that six years ago at the final family conference he found out his relatives were planning to kill each other over the inheritence. In the depths of despair he made a deal with the Golden Witch Beatrice that she would replay the murders over and over again until Battler figured out a way that he was the one comitting them and everyone but he himself survives and isn't a greedy shit, thereby killing many people (in the repeats) and one person (himself). The reasons she accepted were twofold: She was in fact a good witch like Maria and wished to use her Endless to find a way the family was not made up of blood-sucking parasites.

She erased his memories of the plot, events, and herself so he could look at it from a non-magical point of view that had no knowledge of the evil plotting and began the game with Battler's soul, which had been transferred to the magical world to be her foe. During the fourth game (which is actually many games and six years later thanks to the magic memory erasing) she finally thought that it was over but the conditions weren't yet right and he couldn't have comitted them all that time, so he didn't remember.

Eventually Battler will figure out a way that he is the killer and his family is composed of awesome people who all love each other, and that will become reality. The gold and inheritence (part 1) will be split among the resurrected nice people who are now actually alive after the hurricane instead of the victorious murderers (part 2), Battler will remember everything and revive his relationship with Beato (part 3), and his magic world soul and Beato will be put to sleep together for eternity and leave for the world of witches and warlocks (part 4).

>>2750230
It's been stated in red (in EP3, as I recall) that Battler is not the killer.

>>2750243
Yeah, and after this he will spend the rest of his life in a psychiatry, with his beloved imouto visiting every weekend.

>>2750243
As an addendum to part 3 here, he and the GW Beato could have been in love at the start of the game so when he regains his memories the love will be "revived". Yeah. There we go.

>>2750267
Obviously he wasn't the killer that time, or the game would have ended. He is trying to make himself the killer. The red didn't say he was innocent on all the boards.

>>2750277
All boards happened. He must win all boards. The game won't end until he does.

>>2750281
Good point. Okay, it only says he didn't murder Nanjo and that someone did. He must have had an accomplice, which also shows how some people could be murdered while he was under observation. The accomplice is achieved using some of these +1 tricks anon has come up with so far. After all, Battler doesn't care if some unknown person that he hired is a greedy bastard, just the people in the family and probably the servants.

>>2750308
Eva Beatrice said in red that Battler in neither the culprit nor an accomplice.

>>2750320
Oh well, it was a good theory. Back to the drawing board.

>>2750320
But WHICH BATTLER WAS SHE TALKING ABOUT?!

With the episode 04 patch, I'm assuming it goes with the ep04 torrent containing the same file. Do I need to download ep03,02, and 01, and their respective patches as well?

>>2750308
I still think that some of the servants are forced by real culprit to assist in the murders or help to confuse the victims. The way Kumasawa and Gohda act is especially suspicious. Nanjo gives me the impression that he's being blackmailed (this is probably related to his sickly granddaughter and him wanting the money for her treatments or something).

>>2750357
No, EP4 includes everything.

>>2750357
nah just get the ep4 patch, just like the game itself previous episodes are translated too

>>2750390
Thanks.

>>2750366
Perhaps the 100 Million sent to everyone who survived was planned that way as a reward for whoever went along with the plot. The culprit didn't know who would side with them for sure therefore mailed the money to everyone. After all, it's not a waste of money because they could just collect it from all the dead people's vaults afterwards. It didn't happen that way in episode 3 because the killer died, found the gold and didn't need to collect it, actually felt remorse and let their children have it, or didn't want to confront the victim's children who recieved the letters because it would be like admitting they were involved.

After the Beatrice Rosa met died, Kinzo went even more batshit and closed down the harbor to Kuwadorian out of paranoia. He picked up a third girl to be his "Beatrice" (possibly from his orphanage). Her name was probably Maria (unrelated to Rosa's daughter Maria.)

However, the second Beatrice was the daughter of the original, so Kinzo, in his madness, rationalized that story about how she was really a homunculus with the original Beatrice's soul. The third "Beatrice" was just some girl who resembled her (and was probably something of a brat on top of that), so he didn't recognize her as the true Beatrice he had lost twice, just someone with her face. However, he put together a black magic ceremony to use Maria as a "vessel" and summon the original Beatrice's soul into her, described by the epitaph. Kinzo died, Maria left the island for a while, and now Maria might be trying to carry out the ritual or stop the ritual, since it's both a ceremony to ressurrect the witch and to "put her to sleep for all time". Oh, and Battler's sin was saying stupid white knight shit to her six years ago that she took seriously and when he didn't follow through it pissed her off.

Beatrice can't be Jessica because the game board Beatrice appears at the end of episode 1 when Jessica is present with Battler. Along with that, it's said in red in episode 3 she's not a killer.

Shanon might be Beatrice, but her death is confirmed early on in the majority of the episodes, and game board Beatrice still wanders about. There would have to be some body switching (Kanon = Shanon) or multiple Beatrices (which takes the point out of Shanon being Beatrice in the first place).

I'm still thinking Beatrice is Battler's long lost half sister, the real child of Asumu, that Kinzo took in because she looked like Beatrice.

>>2750633
Accomplice.
Jessica and Shannon are working together.
Kanon knew about it so Jessica killed him in her room before the game started, Shannon is playing his part.