/jp/ - Otaku Culture

hiragana -> katakana -> basic vocab and grammar -> kanji -> continue into mid/high level grammar / kanji.

If you use romanji past the second week or so, you don't have the dedication necessary to use Japanese past an elementary level.

Crack open the skull of a Japanese man and start eating the grey matter within.

>>2534907
OP here; much appreciated. How would you recommend picking up Hiragana? Rote memorization for everything before, say, putting it in the context of a word/sentence?

source on your pic and I'll tell you.

>Is anyone here currently learning Japanese?
Nope. I'm pretty sure all the people who start threads like this every few hours are just trolls.

>>2534928
Write them down over and over hundreds of times, then check your answers. Worked for me, I learned them in a week.

>>2534930
OP here, sorry; there is no source. Just some pic I saved off Akibakko before it went down.

>>2534938

Thought as much; thanks a lot. I'm assuming you did this for katakana afterward too?

>>2534947
Yeah, same process. All you need is a kana chart available for free off the net.

>>2534954
Thanks a lot. How would I go about learning connecting the characters together to form words and grammar while memorizing like you said (I've found charts already)?

お姉ちゃん！そろそろ起きないと。
is this sentence gramatically correct?

>>2534983
no

>>2534974
write one character after the other until it forms a word like in english.

>>2534992
k

>>2535000
newfag to jp here (not the OP). I was about to start a thread like this but i was wondering - do you translate hiragana into romanji and then into english?

>>2534928
http://avaxhome.ws/ebooks/cultures_languages/RememberingKana.html

I haven't used it myself, but I hear good things about it (and as for the memorization, I have read the same guy's kanji book which is very good for that purpose).

I also learned them by rote memorization which is completely doable since there's less than 100 kanas to memorize, but you might as well take a look at that since they're short books

>>2535017
What the hell?

>>2535025
Troll perchance?

>>2535018
>I have read the same guy's kanji book which is very good for that purpose

inb4 200 replies.

coscom.co.jp

Before it's recommended, make sure to NOT use the Heisig method to memorize. You will not progress smoothly, and regard anyone who recommends it as a troll.

>>2534928

http://smart.fm/home

Great for Hiragana and Katakana.

Before it's recommended, make sure to NOT use the Heisig method to memorize Kanji. You will not progress smoothly, and regard anyone who recommends it as a troll.

>>2535425

>>You will not progress smoothly
care to elaborate?

>>2535529

If you want to learn Japanese, you need to learn Japanese. Not learn to associate Kanji with English.

No reputable linguist would ever recommend it. And I'm sure most who've come across it, have condemned the Heisig method.

>>2534899

One of the best ways to learn the language is in a school, but if you don't have that option, I suggest you pick up a series of books called "Japanese for busy people". One of the best books to learn off of from what I have heard.

>>2535425
>>2535615
The way I see it:
Kanji = ideas
...so you might want to associate the Kanji with a picture in your head instead of English.

>>2535615
Learning the kanji first in English does not rule out learning Japanese after that (or during this if you don't want to follow Heisig's instructions precisely).

There's a lot of people who are not in any rush to prepare to fucking useless bullshit like JLPT level 4 or 3 who have, in the long run, benefited a lot of Heisig's method (see kanji.koohii.com). Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it's not worth for other people to check it out.

>>One of the best ways to learn the language is in a school

>>2535642

>One of the best ways to learn the language is in a school

Schools suck. Most of what you can do in a school, you can do on your own, and better. Schools cater to the lowest common denominator, so you may learn at a much slower pace than your level.

At most, it would just be nice to have a fluent speaking person you can have one on one sessions with once in awhile.

>>2535425
What about his method for hiragana and katakana in >>2534928 then?

>>2535699
Completely different from his kanji method. I'm not 2535425 but I recommend checking it out.

I'm learning Japanese at the moment. However my case is a bit different in that I took 2 semesters of Japanese in college, so I had a very solid foundation to start with.

My suggestion would be to just buy a beginner textbook (Genki) and learn the basics. Hiragana, katakan, basic vocabulary and kanji, numbers, verb forms, etc. Then just grind vocabulary and kanji. I'm in no huge rush, so I'm just doing 50 words per week. It's going great.

>>2535715
COnfirmed. Try it OP, f you're still here.

I'm learning Japanese at the moment. However my case is a bit different in that I took 2 semesters of Japanese in college, so I had a very solid foundation to start with.

My suggestion would be to just buy a beginner textbook (Genki) and learn the basics. Hiragana, katakana, basic vocabulary and kanji, numbers, verb forms, etc. Then just grind vocabulary and kanji. I'm in no huge rush, so I'm just doing 50 words per week. It's going great.

>>2535672
Truth. I'm taking a class, but I still end up doing 90% of my learning on my own. It's useful for asking questions about grammer, and that's about it.

>>2535664

You should be learning the readings as well as what it means in English, all at the same time.

>>You should be learning the readings as well

Sure, but no reason to do it at the same time.

>>2535988
If you're setting out to learn all of the ~2000 jouyou kanji minimum, does it really matter if you learn the readings afterwards? The writings can be learned in a _very short_ time if you forget the readings for that short time, and _after_ that you're in a position where you can actually start learning the language at a much faster speed than people with NO knowledge of the kanji.

>>2535925
what texbook are you using?

>>2536028
Define readings and writings; exactly? I'm sorta lost.

>>2536057
That for each kanji of those said kanji, you

1) know one rough meaning of the character (many kanji have more than one meaning, but which will become clearer once you start building vocab)

2) can write the character (with corret stroke order etc.) when prompted for the meaning described in 1), and on the other hand, can recall the meaning when you see the character

you can buy a game for the DS to help you, it will teach you some basics and become really useful for practise when out and about (no need to carry learning textbooks or other clumbersome learning objects around) back it up with other sources of learning ofc but its really neat to have for pocket referencing on some things ect.

>>2536057
(hit submit too early)

those were the writings. As for readings, it roughly mean how you "pronounce" each character in different contexts. Most characters have a lot of different possible readings, and learning them takes a LOT of time and/or structuring. This is the whole reason why in Heisig's method you first learn the writings, which can well be done in three months without too much work.

>I want to learn jap to read doujins/animu and play vidya

You will quit after three weeks.

>>2536094
What game is that?

>>2536120

Not everyone is a failure like you.

>>2536120

Three weeks is all you need to get the gist of some doujins. The dirty ones, anyway.

>>2536120
I used to pay attention to people like you, and it almost stalled my progress. Now I know for sure that anime/manga/games/etc are the best reasons to learn Japanese, and the best sources of sentences to learn from, and I'm making good progress again. Khatzumoto is 100% right that learning has to be fun, because there's no way you'll be able to motivate yourself if it isn't. Even if 50% of what you learn is useless (a very conservative estimate), because it's fun you're learning 10 times as much, so you come out ahead.

Question: Let's say I know hiragana, katakana, and the 2000-odd standard kanji - would I have any need to learn romanji?

>>2536328

You already know romaji if you know hiragana.

>>2536328
No, but I can't see how you could be in such a situation and not know it

>>2536225
...except that I learned Japanese for different reasons, put up with shits like you in all my uni classes, raped JLPT2, and see threads exactly like this one all the time.

Learning a language to consume pop culture isn't a bad thing, it's just that the people who do that are usually the sort of people who will never amount to anything anyway (most 4chan and /jp/ people).

But if OP is steadfast, absolutely avoid Heisig. Formal courses may or may not be better than studying alone but generally they're better, especially if they force you to speak. Classes have structure and support, and they provide the kind of pressure necessary to learn a language that you really don't get on your own. Classes do suck ass though if you have a bad teacher or a shitty text. Classmates aren't a problem after the intro class, most of the weeaboos drop out/quit.

>>2536328

Since you already know English, you will already know romaji once you know hiragana and katakana.

>>2536328

Since romaji is just the transliteration of Japanese into the Latin alphabet, you'll already know it.

>>2536324
Khatzumoto's method is great...if you have no life. The only way his shit worked was because he made it his life.

And the language used in manga and anime is terrible to learn from.

The sooner you realize language learning is not always going to be shits and giggles the sooner you'll progress past sounding like a retard to any japanese person.

>>2536361

>Learning a language to consume pop culture isn't a bad thing, it's just that the people who do that are usually the sort of people who will never amount to anything anyway (most 4chan and /jp/ people).

People all around the world learn English because of American entertainment.

>>2536361
>raped JLPT2
So you're not even fluent yet. So much for classes.

Heisig is the second best preparation for learning Japanese, Kanjidicks is best.

Anyone who has the drive to learn a language for any reason will probably amount to something.

You only need pressure to force you to learn if you don't want to learn. You don't want to learn because classes are fucking boring.

Speaking before you've racked up several thousand hours of reading and listening is a terrible idea. Input before output.

>>2536328
ARE YOU A FUCKING IDIOT?

>>2536361
>But if [someone] is steadfast, absolutely avoid Heisig.

You'd best be fucking joking, nigger. I ordered a copy of Remembering the Kana two days ago.

>>2536415
>ordered a copy
Trolls trolling trolls

>>And the language used in manga and anime is terrible to learn from.

I've learned most of my English from D&D-style RPGs and South Park. That does not mean I don't know how normal people speak. Claims like this are usually made by people who only speak one language.

>>2536400
Original speech is dangerous for beginners, but exactly mimicking native utterances is no problem.

>>2536415

>ordered

That's why you get it of /rs/ like everyone else.

>>2536463
Meh, you get my point. Is Keisig's method good or not?

>>2536439
anime and manga are fine *if you already know the language*. You obviously didn't start out with South Park.
And it is much easier to learn english from informal english than japanese from informal japanese. I'm not sure why you believe all languages are equivalent in how irregular their informal constructions are.

>>2536400
>I don't know any Japanese

>>2536484

>it is much easier to learn english from informal english than japanese from informal japanese.

Why?

im a filthy spic so i cant lern no japnese ;-;

>>2536484
I don't recall exactly what was the first thing I watched in English, but SP was at least among the first (I only speak English as my fourth language).

Of course I sometimes got glimpses of formal English from other sources, and eventually started to read Internet pages in English. In a similar way, even if you start absorbing vocabulary from anime/manga/whatever, that does not mean this media will forever stay as your *only* source for the language. If you have any intentions/drive to learn the language for purposes other than manga, this should sort itself out when you eventually start reading from other sources as well.

heisig is shit, anyone recommending it is a troll
>>2536484
i hope you realize you're on /jp/, not /linguistics/, nobody here wants to hear that and nobody here will understand why

>>2536520
correct. Pop media is fine as long as it isn't your only tool.

>>2536525
>Heisig is shit

Elaborate.

Heisig is awesome. Anyone who says it isn't is a troll.

>>2536543
Agreed.

The shittiness of Heisig has already been elaborated on in this thread.

>>2536543
Yeah, because it's impossible that different people prefer different learning methods.

>>2536563
NOT CLEARLY ENOUGH, OBVIOUSLY.

The only people who recommend Heisig are people who are a couple months into Japanese and haven't had to do anything yet.

The think it's cool because it's easy. Easy =/= Good.

>>2536598

Is Heisig the guy who writes little stories about the kanji for remembering them? Some of those felt like real stretches.

>>2536598
So what do YOU reccommend?

The most common criticism against Heisig's Remembering the Kanji is that it doesn't teach you Japanese.

This is true, but completely irrelevant. The whole point of the book is to read it -before- studying the language. The point is to prepare you in a relatively short time so that you will already know a fair amount about the writing system. Claiming that this isn't beneficial is like claiming that Chinese students of the language do not benefit from knowing the hanzi beforehand.

And like this thread shows, the reason these discussions always reduce into RtK-debates is not the people who recommend RtK, but rather the people who are fiercely anti-Heisig. This thread was originally about fucking kana before >>2535425 came in.

>>2536609
the way people had been learning languages since forever before heisig and other lazy bullshit

second language ?
You have never learned ANY language besides english ? wow...

I study it at an university as my 4th language.

You should take a course, I'm pretty sure some school makes beginner's language courses.

Of course you can teach yourself the Kanji, but grammar can be a bitch (just as in every language) if you have nobody to actively ask your questions.

>>2536647
Why would a native English speaker need to know any other languages?

>>2536620

There is no reason for you to "prepare to learn". You should just learn it. Preparing to do so with Heisig isn't doing anything but slowing you down.

>>2536660

This is exactly why the world hates America.

>>2534938
>hiragana
>hundreds of times

WAT lol
If you really need to write them hundreds of times, then you're just too fucking retarded.

>>2536663
So what you are effectively saying is that Chinese students don't benefit from knowing the hanzi beforehand. What do you think it is, then, that allows them to learn the language so much faster than Western students?

These threads are tiring. Why can't people just google? Learning a language is not at all hard you just need to actually do it. It doesn't matter what you use as long as it forfills what you want.

It would probably help if it was correct though.

>>2536669
British, actually.

>>2536079
for JLPT and university tests you also have to know one of the ON readings (+ translation).
ON readings are essential when you're looking at words with several kanji in it.

>>2536620
I agree with the majority that RtK is crap, but what about Remembering the Kana?

>>2536663

No, not what I'm saying. What they have is free knowledge because of their original language, but that doesn't mean that other people should try and learn the same way.

>>2536328
you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
that question makes no sense.

>>2536703

It's useless, really. Kana is something that can easily be learned quickly on your own.

I basically mastered the Kana in a couple weeks.

Has any anti-RtKtard actually recommended an alternative, ever? (other than kanjidicks which is basically the same thing)

>>2536725
The you wasted 12 days, because I used Remembering the Kana and did it in 2. Hard working people can do it in 1.

>>2536728
But is Kanjidick's actually any good?

You know what do you need? Anki. Download it as soon as possible.

>>2536739
It's Heisig, but more offensive. The more offensive the mnemonic, the easier it is to remember.

>>2536738

Bullshit

>>2536728
what is kanjidick ?

I suspect this whole Heisig bullshit is just monoglot English speakers making language learning out to be a bigger deal than it is. Does anybody recommending it actually have experience with foreign languages?

>>2536755
Lots of people completed Remembering the Kana in one or two days. Learning them by brute force repetition is stupid and inefficient. Same is true for kanji.

>>2535957
>I'm in no huge rush, so I'm just doing 50 words per week.
>50 words per week
im doing 28 and I consider it hard as shit

>>2536760
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/category/success-stories

And of course Khatzumoto as the biggest success.

>>2536776
Then you're mentally retarded, or you're doing it wrong. Are you entering words/sentences directly into your SRS? Are you using sounds and pictures? Are you doing your reps with no distraction (I suggest ignoring Khatzumoto's advice and turning off your Japanese music while doing the reps, because even minor distraction is harmful).

>>2536769

92 characters in a day? No, I don't believe that shit.

>>2536620
There are many occasions where Heisig fags are the ones starting shitstorms and telling everyone else that their learning methods are shit.

>>2536843
RECOMMEND AN ALTERNATIVE FAG

hey /jp/. I used http://www.hiraganapractice.com/ to learn hiragana and katakana, because I respond better to active exercises, maybe took me a week or two total. I also used it for some vocab memorization.

That website only covers JLPT4 vocab though, so I made a small program and made a similar program for the JLPT3 vocab. It's somewhat decent for me, but I was wondering what I can do with it. If anyone wants to look at it, I can send it to you. I was considering adding in a way to learn kanji, but it's not as simple as just learning the vocab.

also. I've used http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~ik2r-myr/kanji/kanji1pa.htm to learn kanji. I'm not terribly good, so it's probably not too efficient, but I'm getting somewhere.

>>2536817
It's kana, it's mostly only 2 or 3 strokes! And voicing/combinations don't count as whole characters, they are simple variations on the basic 46.

>>2536709
Why not? At a rate of 23 kanji per day (not in the least bit far-fetched if you're good at making up short stories), it takes less than three months to complete RtK1. That is a very short time considering how much time you're going to spend learning the language anyway. If that allows even a fraction of the advantage that the Chinese have, it is a very good thing in the long run.

>>2536728
No.

>>2536883
good luck at memorizing them perfectly and not mixing them up. lmao
at university we learn 300 passive (1 ON, 1 kun + translation) and ~100 active in one semester.

>>2536869
>JLTP3/4

What DO these mean?

>>2536900
Like I said, not in the least bit far-fetched. If you use an SRS from the start, you should have minor problems at most, and even that only because of inaccurate stories.

The reason why university classes progress so much slower in terms of writings is precisely because you are learning readings at the same time. It is almost impossible to structure both the writings and readings at the same time similarly effectively as Heisig does only the writings. Something like kanjidicks might be the only exception, but I don't know much about that

Japanese Language Proficiency Test. has 4 levels, and I hear all 4 cover all the commonly used kanji. because I started learning on my own, I used the JLPT as a guide, because I wasn't sure what to learn.

>>2536900
Trying to learn for 100% recall is horribly inefficient. It destroys your motivation, wastes enormous amounts of time studying material you were not going to forget (and forgetting is stochastic, so there is no way to predict when any individual fact will be forgotten), and it is impossible anyway. Much better to forget about perfection and actually get things done. If you forgot something important then just learn it again when you need it.

>>2536900
And what does it matter if you do mix them up? Just change the keywords so they don't interfere. If it prevents interference it's fine to lose keyword accuracy, because the keywords are only a temporary crutch. As Khatzumoto said "aim to fail" - don't worry about mistakes. Keep learning and it will all fall into place, but if you're fighting perfection all the way you'll never reach that goal.

Japanese language thread:

-People who tried AJATT and failed, spew out regurgitated lines they have read from Khatzumoto's blog.

-People who formally studied it and have actually got physical results rage against them.

>>2536900
Heisigfag here who finished book 1.
You are right, there are times when I confuse two characters similar in meaning or look. But guess what, SO DO YOU. No matter what method you're going to use, you'll do some mistakes until you have a lot of practice.
That said, I started playing VNs after finishing RTK and picking up some grammar with Tae Kim. Thanks to the voice-overs I'm learning the readings at a pretty fast rate with barely any effort. Once I hear a word enough times I start remembering it without doing any actual studying but having fun.
My method is running the game windowed in two instances, one is Japanese the other is translated. I would translate a line first then compare my work with the translation. If I make a mistake I can correct it instantly and learn from it.
I recommend this method to everyone, you can pick up the grammar, readings and words at an amazing rate like this while having fun.

>>2537014
>-People who tried AJATT and succeeded, spew out regurgitated lines they have read from Khatzumoto's blog.
>-People who formally studied it and can barely read a manga rage against them.
Fixed

>>2537057
hi, you don't know Japanese.

ITT: some asshole who doesn't know what romaji is, and one Khatzumoto+Heisig nuthugger vs a handful of Japanese and linguistics students

>>2536949
As from next (this ?) year it will have 5 steps, with a new one inbetween 2 and 3.

hey 2537046, what VNs have you used like that?

>>2536381
>>2536381
>>2536381

this. Khatzumoto's method is retarded and not intended for ordinary people. you can only do that shit if you're NEET and don't value your time

>>2536977
>And what does it matter if you do mix them up?

why learn if it won't be of any use later anyway, because you mix up everything anyway ? lmao

>>2537110
You'll get most of them right automatically by not being retarded. The point is you shouldn't obsess over getting 100% because memory recall vs. time investment has diminishing returns.

>>2537131
... and I never said that.

>>2537106
Utawarerumono (this one is good because even the protagonist's thought are voiced)
and Clannad (school life, which means if you learn the vocab of this game you'll get to play most school life games without a dictionary)

I speak japanese fluently, enough to follow uni-level engineering courses. I learnt it at first with Heisig and a (french) Assimil book, then with some JLPT material and sentences I put into Anki, all while reading a lot of VNs and watching some animu and one drama. Since september I'm taking (informal) lessons at a japanese community center, and more recently I go to a language exchange and talk with a lot of japanese people, including pretty girls, which is always good for motivation.

I'd say what has been the most helpful is reading japanese everyday, Heisig was great preparation although I don't remember all the keywords nowadays, textbooks are useful too in moderation, and the class & language exchange really helped me for the production/speaking part.

But people like >>2537014, >>2537078 and >>2537057 are idiots. You don't have to either formally study or AJATT it. You can do a little of both and get going just fine.

Once your japanese level is better go write a diary in japanese, and native japanese people wil correct it.
lang-8 (.) com
you should do the same favour to japanese people learning english to make good friends.

>>2534899
>>2534930
Source is coffee kizoku

for everyone saying it's good to learn from manga/anime....

I agree that they're a valuable resource, but if you focus purely on that you will probably sound like a retard. I suppose that's alright if all you're aspiring towards is reading/watching raws.

For what it's worth, I was able to work my way through the novel Kanikosen with just the aid of a kanji dictionary, but have found reading manga to be somewhat more difficult. The language is definitely very stylized. I'm by no means very good, I've been studying for just over a year.

Nonetheless, the easy access to raw anime and manga means it's great raw material for practice and immersion. I'd just say if you want to build really fluency don't focus on it alone.

>>2537179
>You can do a little of both and get going just fine.
This. Most people don't understand that you can't really go wrong with languages since you'll get better and better at it as you spend time learning it.
There may be more or less efficient methods, some which favor a certain type of people and such, but in the end, you cannot "un-learn" it by using a method that doesn't suit you.

AJATT is fast because you spend 16 waking hours each fucking day doing it. Any method is fast if don't do anything else but studying.
Classes are slow because you take a 2 hour class twice a week or so.
The speed of your advancement primarily depends on your commitment and enthusiasm, and only secondarily on the method you use. Of course, it's important to choose the one which suits you, but you can learn the language with any of them if you spend enough time on it.

>>2537218
I don't think anyone uses manga as their sole source of Japanese. Besides, if someone can't comprehend the difference between formal and informal speech he's a dumbass. Even manga have lots of polite speech, especially if you read something not from shonen jump.

「君にオシッコしていい?」is all Japanese you'll ever need.

> The speed of your advancement primarily depends on your commitment and enthusiasm, and only secondarily on the method you use.
Exactly. And it works both ways: I've seen people make no progress by watching animu (they use subtitles, they don't look up new words or note anything down, etc.) and I've seen people stalled in classes just as well (again, they don't note down or search for new information, don't bother studying the homework, don't actually study or get input outside of class).