/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>25178536
Just read.

>>25178536
If only there was a thread with a link for a super detailed guide on how to learn the language.
Also, aside from learning katakana and hiragana, that website is not very useful.

>>25178536
You can't.

Anki + any textbook

>>25178536
Tae Kim + WaniKani should get you started

>>25178536
Watch Cure Dolly you black spear chucking piece of shit nigger.

>>25178536
Pic related is actually working for me I know people shit on it but making learning a "game" is more motivational than just learning to be a weeb unless you can find some untranslated games and doujin no one is going to ever bother touching.

>>25181479
it can be useful if "implicit learning" is your style of learning and you have already taught yourself vocabulary and read a grammar guide

>>25181540
I guess, it really payed off knowing a bunch of stuff due to anime and general Otaku knowledge before when I tested, I will probably pair it with Namasensei or Curedolly later and maybe one other tougher program like Tae kim but right now it's doing alright.

>>25178536
fuck this green fucking tard and his shitty heart system

>>25181172
Tae kim is great. If I actually continued to learn kanji, vocabulary and went trough tae kim, I wouldn't have forgotten japanese and I'd be actually able to read write and speak, but I dropped out like a pussy

step 1 download japanese book
step 2 read

>>25178536
>duolingo
Anon, no...
>how
https://djtguide.neocities.org/
https://www.renshuu.org/
also, focus on vocab, kanji are useless alone

oh wait wait
https://www.readthekanji.com/
is also massively helpful
godspeed

>>25178536
>duolingo meme
give up, you are retarded

日本語で話したい、けど日本人の友達がいません。どうしおう？

>>25203359
Aren't there phone apps that you can use to speak to japs wanting to learn english?

>>25203430
Yeah but I’ve been ghosted every time. I’m actually kind of upset because I had a penpal I talked to on LINE for about 3 months and she just deleted all her accounts and dipped. I don’t even know what I did.

>>25178536
duolingo's okay for practicing vocabulary and maybe practicing grammar but it will never bother to stop and explain grammar to you ever so hit Tae Kim or pirate Genki or something

Also a nitpick is they use "anata" for you when most of the sentences would drop the subject in Japanese or use a person's name in a pinch.

>>25203359
エロゲーを読むしかない

>>25181642
You coulda dropped that shit and just watched train videos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSPqpPbUIOo and h-manga, and still gotten fluent.
But no, you thought you needed to study before you could start doing fun stuff
This is why people like you never make it.

>>25203430
>>25203568
app names?

カス毛唐共と話すとかこちらから願い下げだ

>>25178536
just enroll to a japanese language school in japan and survive there for 2~3 years.

>>25204267
But now they have a hint section where they give some explanation in the current topic, I don't think that it's that bad

>>25178536
I taught English in Japan, and lived in a sharehouse where I was the only non-Japanese person. Anki and japanesepod101 were huge keys to my success with Japanese that I still use today (along with the Dictionary of Japanese Grammar series by Makino and Tsutsui), but I tried pretty much everything there is out there. That probably helped too.

First of all, Duolingo does not work well for Japanese (maybe it's better for the romance languages like Spanish but idk, I didn't use duolingo to learn spanish). Forget the little bird.

Secondly, you have to consider that there are 4 different skills. Reading, writing, speaking, listening. Each of these skills supports the others to varying degrees, but you won't get good at each of them unless you practice them specifically.

I used Anki a fuck ton and I had a great vocabulary but I sounded like a neanderthal because my grammar and pronunciation were shit.

After I moved from Japan I kept studying reading because I thought it would be a great way to keep up with my Japanese. I would get hung up, confusing kanji that were similar to each other. I began practicing writing and this solved it for me.

Key takeaways: With all languages, written and spoken are two different things. This is even more so with Japanese, you can think of writing/reading as a different language from listening/speaking. Either way, you won't get good at listening unless you specifically practice listening. If the only thing you care about is watching anime then stop using anki for kanji flash cards. If the only thing you care about is reading manga then don't bother getting a subscription to jpod101. If you want to be good at listening, practice listening. If you want to be good at reading, practice reading.

>>25178536
Do the opposite of what djt tells you to do, just make sure you work hard on your language skills

>>25206802
hello talk is one that i used, it supports multiple languages. When you sign up you basically pu in:
>Language you're proficient in
>Language you want to learn
You then see a scroll feed of sentences people who want to learn your language, and you can correct them. It works vice versa for the language you are learning

ｖｒチャットでたくさん日本人いるよ

>>25178536
Memorize Hira and Kata first.

Duolingo and even Rosetta Stone think you should know kanji and grammar before you even know words and pronunciation.

Try something conversational and base your learning on audio, like Pimsleur

>>25248182
im too scared

>>25203430
hey anon, my experience is you'll end up teaching them a lot more english than you'd learn japanese. at least at first before you can have a conversation in japanese.

>>25248182
VRチャットの日本人には、日本語がよくわからない外国人に話すのもいいですか

>>25178536
>>25224009
>>25184781
What the fuck happened to djt anyway?
It's full of avatarfags acting like some eceleb.

>>25275702
This post was brought to you by Pimsleur and the Illiterate Gang

>>25268576
This post was brought to you by Pimsleur and the Illiterate Gang.

>>25290085
Nobody who actually wants to learn Japanese uses the thread so it pretty much exists exclusively for the purpose for regulars shitposting about each other.

Hey anon, I really like the Japanese from Zero series, books and videos. To learn some vocabulary and the letters anki is awesome, you may try Kakugo or Nihonoari as well in Android.
But the most important thing is your motivation, pushing even though you feel like you're not understanding nothing is pretty important. This barrier happens a lot when learning another language

>>25206205
Not that guy but I'm currently going through RTK and it's actually pretty fun
There's almost always some pretty interesting or or funny Kanji just from a pictographic or symbolic aspect each day.

I'll have to figure out how to transition from just that to something usable once I'm done, thought.

>>25178536
I learned Hiragana by... youtube videos.
But I did put a bit a prepping into it, so I didn't go in like nothing.

>>25321177
just watch some variety shows if youre into that. You won't get it at first but you just start to pick up words and phrases you learned before. As soon as RTK even becomes slight work, switch to watching shows, or youtubers and don't go back to rtk until you feel well rested. I quit 8 times before i learned i should be having fun at least 90% of the time

>>25203359
text : MMOs, chatpad
voice : VRchat

>>25322125
Makes sense. I remember starting english classes in middle school and I never really had very good grades until I started reading the SA frontpage and forums a whole lot, back in the early 2000s.
After that, I became so much better than everyone else in class, it wasn't even funny.

>>25218426
how did you go about practicing writing? ive been wanting to get into it more but cant think of a good way to motivate myself to practice

>>25323706
yeah with hobbies, If i study for an hour off my day, ill mark just 10 mins of tough work to be done like anki reps, then quickly skim grammar, and the rest of the time is doing something like playing moeges or watching some variety show

>>25322125
>having fun at least 90% of the time
I think my problem is trying to have fun 99% of the time. I read manga and constantly postpone grammar, so while I can read stuff, I have virtually no idea how to speak/write.

>>25178536
tl;dr
- learn kana
- read grammar guide/books
- work through the basic starter kanji deck in anki while going through grammar guide
- start consuming native content ASAP, start with something simple that doesn't have a lot of kanji and relatively simple grammar like Yotsubato

Key takeaway is that you shouldn't try to memorize every grammar point or spend a lot of time on the grammar guide in general and instead you should start consuming native material asap.
Also learning Japanese will require a lot of work and take a long fucking time depending on your language affinity and talent. So if you're only willing to spend 30 minutes a day for it you might as well give up now on that idea now.

>>25178536
>>25178732
fuck the bird and fuck the guide! just watch and listen to japanese media and search up words that caught your attention. Everything else is irrelevant

Look, OP. I've been studying Japanese by myself for about three years. I have a NOKEN 3. I lived in Japan for a year in betweeen. I have made every possible mistake as a newbie. Now I have got to the point to where I am confortable with my learning. So this are my recommendations.
Read one great grammar book. Foundations are important, least you want to end up with a mess of unrelated information in your head. I am midway Tae Kim's, and it's the best one I could recommend. Never Minna no Nihongo.
Get anki and start learning Kanji as soon as possible (assuming hiragana and katakana are crossed out by now). Never, I repeat, never just memorize them. Try to look for the method that best works for you: whether it be learning all the radical, picturing them like drawings, use them, or a combinación of the above. Any way you choose should make it easier for you to remember, and more interesting.
Fucking consume Japanese content, of the kind that you like. In written and spoken form, and look up every word you don't understand. Take into account choosing too difficult a source might introduce you to a lot of new vocabulary, but it could suck away the enjoyment for some time.
Then develop different skills as you might want them. Remember your reason for learning the language and focus in them. Look for Japanese people for Speaking if you want to live in Japan, and you could look into Dogen's phonetic course if real proficiency is an objective of yours (haven't done it myself yet, but it's the only one of its kind I know) . Also write, of course.
There will be periods when you are in love with Japanese and others when you fall out of it. Learn to separate when it is your fault because you're not learning efficiently enough, and when it's just in your nature and have to stick up and go on. Never consider any of said two states as permanent and unchangeable.
Aaand I think there is little else you could need. Remember taking the easiest route, trying to cut any effort, will bore you, while aiming for the deepest (not to be mistaken for the most inefficient, costly and/or time-consuming) knowledge possible will enhance your fondness of the language most of the time.

500 days on Duo.
I'm not even JLPT N5

Get born in Japan.

>>25331068
Not OP, but still, thanks for this anon, you motivated me even more.

>>25181479
People shit on Duolingo because its gamification is awkward and rigid to appeal to normies, not because it's gamified in the first place. Anki is analogous to Duolingo in its essential concept but just done better in every way.

>>25178536
I just recently started learning but I feel like I can share what seems to work well for me and what keeps me motivated.

First, "leaning japanese" is very broad. Why do you actually want to lean it? For me it's because I spend so much time reading (translated) doujinshi and listening to japanese music but it's so frustrating that there's this langage I can't understand even though it's used for all the things I like. I really want to be able to know how it works.

So my goal is to be able to read japanese. Not write or speak, just read. From that I know that I'll need to lean kana, kanji, vocabulary and grammar but I don't care about stroke order or prononciation. But even if your goal is to watch anime or vtubers I still think that you should focus on reading first as it will be hard to escape written japanese on the internet. And if one day you manage to read japanese pretty well you'll be able to use that knowledge to go further into proficiency if you want.

First obvious step should be to learn kana. Don't try learning anything else before you're pretty confident you know every one of them. Download or create an Anki deck with every kana and their combinations and study them but stop before feeling exhausted. Learning should be fun, not a chore so take it as a game where it's fun to try remembering things. Try to link a mnemonic for each character based on how they look, even if it's something dumb. Like, よ looks like a yo-yo. So it's "yo". む could look like a MUsical note if you stare at it long enough. So its "mu". It works so well that you won't need those mnemonic anymore once you know your kana but you won't be able to forget them either.

After that, learn basic grammar principles. You can just start by reading articles from http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/ or https://8020japanese.com/blog/.. Use those to learn about basic sentence structures, particles, verbs, adjectives... don't try too hard to understand everything, the goal for now is only to have a basic understanding of how sentences work.

Then, start learning vocabulary. There's a lot of premade Anki deck for this but... I don't think it's a good idea to start with those. The problem is that you'll try to cram a lot of words in your head even though you probably won't need most of them for a long time.
Imagine you're learning english and your goal is to read this thread. You can try learning as much common words as possible but even simple ones like "wall" or "ground" won't be useful here (well, until this post). So you'll probably forget them fast until you actually encounter them.

So, the most important thing in my opinion it this: LEARN WHAT YOU ACTUALLY NEED TO LEARN.

For this reason I think it's better to make your own vocabulary deck. Just pick up words from what you've read, like the grammar articles from before, and add them to your deck with their reading in hiragana and meaning in english. The simple act of actually adding that word yourself will help you remember it better as your brain will make a connection between the word, the act and where you got that word from. Sometimes I can even remember the webpage where I got a particular word from months after adding it to my deck, it really helps with remember that word.
Once you have a small collection you can study them just like the kana from before: make mnemonics, stop if it's not fun anymore.
You'll need to get creative with the mnemonics here, but it will work just as well. One that I like is for 誰 ("who"): I picture the left part as some kind of flashlight, and the right part as a building. Then I imagine a guy exploring a building at night then suddenly hearing something making him say "who's here?!!". Yes.
Another simple but fun one, 映画 ("movie") the first kanji is a projector and the second one is the screen.

Now go back to studying grammar. Re-read the articles, it should be a lot easier now since you already know some principles and you'll even be able to understand the japanese sentences without even reading the provided translations as you'll remember the kana and kanji words used to write them.

Also, you can now go somewhere on the Internet where there's japanese text (preferably something you actually enjoy like an artist you like on twitter or someting) and try to read random things. At that point you won't understand 99% of what's written but it's very rewarding when you find some simple sentences that you can actually read. If you can read something but only partially, look for the words you don't understand in a dictionary like jisho.org and add them to your vocabulary deck.

From there it will be a long journey. You'll need to get a textbook to dive more into the grammar and vocabulary. But don't stop feeding words to your vocabulary deck and don't stop reading things even if you don't understand most of it. With enough time and effort you'll be able to understand more and more which will keep you motivated to continue.

>>25178536
https://massimmersionapproach.com/
Matt Vs Japan
Best way to learn japanese its working very well for me ,get a lot of input my fren

>>25341861
https://massimmersionapproach.com/table-of-contents/stage-1/

https://massimmersionapproach.com/table-of-contents/stage-1/jp-quickstart-guide/

>>25341861
Check Stephen Krashen on language learning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiTsduRreug

Ignore all the idiot college professors in this thread:

1. Learn kana however the fuck you want
2. study tae kim's grammar guide (start anki core 6k)
3. forget everything you just learned and read some other grammar guide (continue anki core 6k)
4. read yotsuba (start anki mining deck)
5. watch whatever anime you like without subs
6. read some other book when you're done yotsuba

Repeat steps 5 and 6 ad infinitum.
Worked for my lazy ass so I see no reason it shouldn't work for you.

>>25321508
I think youtube is a great way to learn kana. If you have a good memory than you can probably just brute force it into your brain with flash cards, but the video I watched had mnemonics for every symbol and a really talented instructor which helped a ton.

>>25342140

Where do I get Yotsuba RAWs for free?

>>25342662
I want to be nice: manga bank

>>25178536
Duolingo was decent (not much better than as supplementary learning) and they made it worse somehow. Every time anything gets popular it's made worse to appeal to mobilefaggots.

From what I've heard duolingo is pretty useless for learning japanese

Pay a teacher on iTalki to force you to go through curriculum slowly, and to have a partner to speak Japanese with.

>>25276211
just use hellotalk if you want to ease in to it, very easy to find randoms to talk on the phone with for a short period. They will want to speak english a bit as well though.

>>25331279
What a waste of time.>>25331279

>>25332615
>>25181479
Having shit attention-span, I really enjoy the quick explanations they give of grammar on the side of the sessions. The sessions themselves are kinda fucking useless vocabulary-wise though, would recommend anki every time for that.

>>25348503
ええもちろんです
毎日五分間勉強します

>>25323782
writing is a way to help you learn to read. there's quite little use of writing otherwise since you can type everything these days.

I am trying to learn with Genki books.
I have read the first textbook and completed all of the exercises over there but still I forgot almost everything from it one week later.
Can you suggest a better textbook for studying?
I want to reach N4 by December

The language school I went to in Japan used the minna no nihongo series. I passed N3 after 5 months. First you learn the grammar points and vocab. Then you try to solve the chapters in the main book. You do this chapter for chapter.

>>25358175
https://massimmersionapproach.com/table-of-contents/stage-1/jp-quickstart-guide

>>25358457
How often and how long (each session) did you study in those 5 months?

>>25333186
>I don't care about stroke order

I'm a dumdum that's been studying for 10 years and can barely read the articles on www3.nhk.or.jp/news/easy. I wish I had read your post when I was starting. I ended up with a similar strategy and the pace of my learning has improved.

However, I would recommend learning stroke order even if you don't intend to write. I found learning the stroke order makes it a lot easier when looking kanji up.

>>25371611
Yes, I strongly agree on the stroke order being valuable to learn. The stroke order emphasizes the completion of radicals in sequence and can drill into the mind each of the radicals, which is vital for cross-referencing new kanji you are seeing for the first time with the meanings of the radicals. With enough understanding of the radicals and frequent combinations of them you can frequently start from a vague notion of what a word is about and move from there to a more precise idea by looking it up, which can make looking up and/or making flashcards for a lot of kanji in a short amount of time much easier to digest.

"Learning Japanese" is a meme at this point. Most of the people who attempt it quit sooner or later, and for a good reason. It's a difficult language to learn, with kanji being the biggest hurdle I'd say. I'm willing to bet that a fair amount of Western (or basically anyone who isn't from East Asia) learners were influenced by anime and manga, which is understandable, but I doubt anyone who learns a language just to be able to consume media in it will ever become proficient enough. Maybe with a lot of dedication you could reach a level which allows you to read some things, but you'd have to constantly look up words. At the end of the day people need a real goal to keep up their motivation to study, especially if they self-study. If anyone managed to become fluent in Japanese because they wanted to read doujins then kudos for them, they're most likely in the minority.

Koreaboos probably stand a better chance since the writing system in Korean isn't nearly as complicated.

>>25375251
Goals are overrated. You don't rise to the level of your goals; you fall to the level of your routines and habits. If read doujins every day, you'll get good enough to read all the doujins you want, simple as

>>25375251
Not everything is a "meme", you imbecile.
>kanji being the biggest hurdle
It's not nearly as hard as some people think.
>but I doubt anyone who learns a language just to be able to consume media in it will ever become proficient enough
I learned English because I wanted to know what the characters in the movies were actually saying, instead of the translator's interpretation.
>Maybe with a lot of dedication you could reach a level which allows you to read some things
I've been studying for three months and I can read Yotsubato fine.
>but you'd have to constantly look up words
Just like with every language you learn.
If you actually tried, you'd see that the learning process is the same as in other languages.

>>25376475
>you imbecile
Nice ad hominem, dude.
>It's not nearly as hard as some people think.
Kanji in and by itself isn't hard. It's the ability to recognize, read and understand their meaning which is difficult to develop and master, especially considering there's thousands of them. Nothing is "nearly as hard" as people think since whether something is hard or not tends to be subjective. That being said, you can't deny that kanji is a major obstacle, especially compared to something like the Roman alphabet.
>I learned English because I wanted to know what the characters in the movies were actually saying, instead of the translator's interpretation.
Well, I learned it at school because that's how they do it in most parts of the world and then kept learning by consuming media in it and using it with others. So unless you taught yourself English from zero, it's not really relevant to this discussion.
>I've been studying for three months and I can read Yotsubato fine.
Yotsubato is super easy and has furigana. There's a reason why it's being recommended for beginners of Japanese. Also, being able to read it "fine" doesn't really give much information. Do you look up words? Can you understand the slang and slurred speech after you've only been learning for three months?
>If you actually tried, you'd see that the learning process is the same as in other languages.
What makes you think I haven't tried? And of course the learning process is the same as in other languages, it's still a language like any other. However you still need to spend an incredibly large amount of time just to be able to read it, as most languages don't have 3 writing systems.

>>25178536
ANKI and books, but mostly Anki. I'm too scared to start Kanji. It's supposed to be hard.

>>25358457
I use MNN for self-study, and I find it pretty good. All the vocab is useful, and the grammar is not overwhelming. I'd recommend using this book alongside with extra stuff like videos. It's better to have some structure to your studies rather than grinding shit mindlessly in anki without knowing how to use what you learn.

>>25377505
Never gonna make it. Unless you start learning kanji for all the words you learn. Why would you want to learn all words twice anyway

>>25377443
>That being said, you can't deny that kanji is a major obstacle, especially compared to something like the Roman alphabet.
Although it's considerably harder than other alphabets, it gets easier the more you learn, since you'll start to learn the meanings of each kanji and start to see the logic behind the words. For example, the kanji for grade-school is 小学校, which is made up of small (小) and school (学校). If you learn those two words before, you'll have a very easy time learning this new word. And this kind of stuff happens all the time in Japanese.
>that's how they do it in most parts of the world
In my country, people also learn at school, and yet, somehow, knowing English is considered rare around here.
>So unless you taught yourself English from zero
I didn't, but I learned way more on my own than I did in the classroom. And if the issue is starting from zero, there are plenty of free classes on the internet.
>Do you look up words?
Yes, as I said before, you look up words you don't know when learning a new language. That's how you learn.
>Can you understand the slang and slurred speech after you've only been learning for three months?
Most of the time. Sometimes I won't understand at first, but then the same slang is used again somewhere else, and with the new context I'm usually able to get what the characters meant.
>as most languages don't have 3 writing systems
Two of those are identical and not that much bigger than the roman alphabet.
>you still need to spend an incredibly large amount of time just to be able to read it
Two things I want to say about this.
First, you shouldn't think about how long it'll take to master, you should focus on learn a little bit each day, otherwise you'll tell yourself it'll take too long and give up. Then, years later, you'll think "If I hadn't given up, I'd probably be fluent by now". Ask me how I know that.
Second, I said I could read Youtsuba fine, but that wasn't always the case. When I first started, I couldn't read more than two pages without getting a headache, but the more I read, the easier it got. Now I'm also reading Kill me Baby and reading the anime without subtitles (although there are a lot more words I don't know and no furigana to help). And those things are a ton of fun. I may be far from being fluent, expert, or even good at Japanese, but just three months of learning have already been useful to me.

>>25370487
3 hours in class, 1 hour homework, 1 hour or more studying on my own. Class was sometimes slow but the good thing about it was the tons of repetition. They really make you use the grammars you've learned.

>>25386988
5 hours a day? Assuming you did it every single day for 5 months, that should be around 750 hours of dedicated studying and professional help to get to N3. My current goal is to get to N2 on both verbal and written aspects, but I think I'll have to limit myself to around 2-3 hours a day and I don't have the money to ask a professional to help teach me, but your words (along with all the tips and guides this thread contains) really puts a lot of hope and motivation on me. I feel like I should be able to pull it off now within a year and a half if I try hard enough. Thank you so much, Anon.

>>25178762
did you honestly think you could?

>>25371611
>>25372066
Thanks, I'll try to learn that as well then. Anything helping to cement those characters in my mind even more is good to take.

>>25377505
>I'm too scared
Don't. It's different but not that much harder than english words (or any other roman language).

Picture it this way: when you read an english word you don't read it letter by letter right? That's because you remember the image formed by those letters so you see "house" you read "house" directly.
With kanji you'll remember the image formed by radicals.

And to avoid the problem of kanji having different readings: learn words, not kanji.
In english you're not bothered by the fact that the 'i' in "missing" is different from the one in "mice". Again, that's because you don't just learn letters then try to pronounce words, instead you just learn how each word is prononced.
So, think of kanji in compound words as being letters in english words. It doesn't matter how a kanji is pronounced by itself, what matters is how the word is pronounced.

I see some people telling that you should learn radicals first, then kanji, then words as otherwise it would be like learning english words before learning the alphabet. And while I think they're right I'm also pretty sure that someone learning that way would quickly identify the repeating patterns called "letters" in words. The real reason you'll in fact want to learn the alphabet first it that there's only 26 characters so there's no reason to not do it. Just like there's no reason to not learn kana before anything else in japanese.

But kanji is different since there's so many. To continue the comparison with english, imagine learning every suffix, prefix and syllable before any word. Yes it could be useful but first it would be a pain in the ass and second it could also be a source of errors, as you can learn that the prefix "re" means "again" yet you'll be wrong when guessing the meaning of "recover".

So I think it's better to directly learn words, and you'll pick up the individual kanji along the way. After some time you should be able to remember them and know what they mean, making learning new words easier as you can (sometime!) guess their meaning.

That's my beginner point of view anyway. I'm still wondering if I should learn at least some radicals as there's not that many and it could help with remembering and guessing some meanings.

>>25399280
>And to avoid the problem of kanji having different readings: learn words, not kanji.
I agree, this is what I've been doing. I don't want to learn a word's pronunciation without the kanji and (1) not be able to read or write the word and (2) have to learn the word again when I learn the kanji for it.

If you learn the kanji with your words, you will very soon recognize most radicals. You can just look up their meanings in the meantime.

>>25178536
AJATT/MIA. don't listen to other retards itt

>>25330140
Do you even know Japanese?

>>25206802
Busuu does that after every single lesson

Thoughts? I'm really leaning towards this because I'm a very hands on learner and being forced to sound out pronunciations seems like it would benefit me.
Not to mention the convenience of being able to study while I do other things

>>25332615
Pretty much. It's funny to see people shitting on duolingo while doing anki and "1+" sentence mining, since that's exactly how duolingo works.

>>25404672
Not bad for boosting your confidence and pronunciation, but you're not going to learn a language with it. Use it as a supplement to get yourself started. There is no easy way of learning.

>>25404775
I'm not exactly expecting to be fluent in 12 months, I just need a springboard into the language where I can then improve through conversation.
You think it would be a good start? I surprisingly rarely see it brought up

>>25404825
Well pirate it and give it a try. Pimsleur teaches you very VERY basic stuff, and it doesn't give you too much grammar or vocabulary, but at least you practice speaking a bit. It's better than Duolingo, but it's still not effective at all in itself. I recommend starting kana + some basic videos on Japanese, then taking a textbook + grammar shit + vocabulary + practice because you do need structure to your studies, and you absolutely need written practice too. You can do Pimsleur whenever you want during this process really, so go ahead and try it, you have nothing to lose. Just keep in mind that it is not enough in itself. Don't you dare pay for it, though.

>>25345704
Nothing has ever been improved by mass appeal.

>>25178536
Don't use this garbage, I used ir for 5 months and i didn't learn a new thing, thats because you have to practice an language by talking to learn it. In my case I learned in an academy in 4 months.

>>25178536
Sign up for a community college course, or whatever it's called in your country (assuming you have some sort of evening schools for adults to learn stuff like languages, or pottery or whatever). If you lack even a little discipline, self-learning will fail you, plus you don't have people to actually speak to, forcing you to create sentences on the fly instead of doing stupid shit like memorizing whole sentences or doing multiple choice shit or whatever.
Essentially: Go back to school, anon. There's nothing better.
(specialized language schools are another option, of course, but usually more expensive).

Is there a reason everybody says Anki is the best option beyond wanting to look smart because it's overly complicated?

At the end of the day it doesn't seem like it would teach me anything Busuu wouldnt

>>25413476
common scenario: you see a word in the wild you don't know: you look up definition. every week you read and you look up hundreds of words. some you might even look up a bunch of times

now imagine if there was an easy way to remember those words so you don't have to keep looking stuff up and slowing your reading.... that tool is anki.

>>25413756
Maybe I misunderstand it's purpose then? What is it beyond community flash cards?

>>25413770
it uses an algorithm that helps you memorize words and phrases. overall it's the best available tool to memorize stuff because of add-ons and community help

the purpose is for you to create flashcards for words/phrases you want to remember.

community decks are only useful for things like kanji or the first 1000 or so words you learn

read this if you want to really get into optimizing anki:
https://massimmersionapproach.com/table-of-contents/anki/low-key-anki/intro

Should I shell out for Renshuu Pro?

Is it wrong to study Japanese to get a vtuber gf?

>>25333186
>む looks like a musical note
No, It looks like a cow (MOOOO) with a tumor

>>25420011
Be the girlfriend Anon

>mfw my language is already read as written so I already have the pronunciations down

>>25421389
My voice is deep and I have a masculine shaped body (not overweight)
I doubt I can get a vtuber bf with that

>>25422379
>deep voice with masculine body
>not being able to get vtuber gfs
>not being able to get vtuber bfs

Be the YouTuber yourself, then

>>25420539
>MOOOO
that's も, dumbass

>>25413476
What the fuck is complicated about Anki

>>25375251
>Koreaboos probably stand a better chance since the writing system in Korean isn't nearly as complicated.
No. Because people can learn something that they hear every day or the languages of closest neighbours way easier. I don't know why is this like that, but it's true.

>>25377443
>Well, I learned it at school because that's how they do it in most parts of the world and then kept learning by consuming media in it and using it with others.
For example, people in my Slavland learn some English in school but they knowledge is still poor. Even nowadays.
For me the full local course of distance education done way more than the whole school. And you don't have much choice back in the 90's.

日本語を勉強したいけど気合は数年前に失いました。

>>25424006
Literally what isn't. Its like trying to learn a language in excel

>>25431483
1. Import deck
2. Press 'Study now'
3. Analyze word
4. Press 'Show answer'
5. Select one of the options depending on how well you recognized the meaning and pronunciation of the word

Anki needs an add-on or whatever to increase the text size. What a shite program

>>25431483
You could argue that setting up custom decks can be annoying, time consuming, not straightforward etc but what's so difficult about using pre-built decks? Literally a couple clicks like this anon says >>25432533

>>25440572
Except you don't.

>>25431483
The only thing that is even slightly demanding is if you want to write your own css and js for custom cards.
The rest is really just "button x adds this many days to the interval, multiplied by a few % modifiers"

If you install low-key anki mods, it gets even more simple and all you have to worry about is just one setting that you can adjust to change difficulty (lengths of new intervals)

Just finished my first Pimsleur course. Feeling like I understand more now than I did after a whole day of Duolingo.

Looking forward to the rest. The audio stimulation is really helpful I think

>>25178536
zkanji for dictionary, stroke order and memorization
yomu chan to see the definition of a word in a browser page by hovering your cursor on it
and consume japanese media / talk to japanese people
good luck

>>25419820
This, I'm between Busuu Renshuu and Pimsleur rn

I’m in between learning Chinese and Japanese rn. I know that Chinese will be more useful for me in the long run when it comes to working and shit but I like anime and stuff so Japanese would be great

>>25443596
Would you rather a chink gf or a nip gf? The answer may surprise you

>>25445369
I don't want any gf.

>>25445369
>gf
Where do you think you are?

>>25445369
Nip but either way I could never get a gf

>>25445457
>>25446796
Sounds like quitter talk to me. You guys can act like chads if you try hard enough and even if you don't there are always girls (non-Western) who aren't looking for chads
>>25445442
Then flip a coin

>>25321508
I feel retarded. It took me a whole ass month to remember all of hiragana, and then I tried learning all of katakana via mnemonics and I got it all down IN A DAY

>>25178536
Learn the basic grammar, memorize kana, and then go to Japan. Your brain will go into survival mode. That's how you learn any language unless you're an autist who can actually become fluent by reading textbooks.

If you’re really fucking lucky and have a japanese friend whose willing to help HAVE THEM HELP YOU. Mine even got his parents to help me it was fucking embarrassing, but it helped a lot

Reminder that pitch accent isn't real. Don't fall for pitch accent guide (((salesmen)))'s cheap attempts at representing Japanese as a tonal language.
Also, the only way to acquire Japanese is through eroge and ecchi harem anime.

>>25449001
misread as "mine even got his parents to me fucking" lmfao

>mass immersion approach has you DO NOTHING BUT LISTENING after just learning how to fucking read from tae kim
really fucking gay desu, if I use japanese subs I can actually get a feel for what the text I can actually decipher sounds like without having to dick around missing 99% of it

>>25449315
Have fun spending 3 years reading anime with Jap subs and then realizing you can't understand spoken Japanese at all (or pronounce 勝手 correctly because you'd never actually done real reading practice).

>>25449358
what kind of retard sticks with JP subs for a 3 years, that'd be like never taking the training wheels off your bike.

>>25449424
idk ask Quizmaster. I've heard he's never watched anything that doesn't have Japanese subs.

and he keeps shilling here too fucking narcissist

>>25448958
imagine

>>25443596
would you be able to stick to either is the question

>>25450986
Fuck studying or working or living overseas.
I already had that experience with one semester back in high school in Austria and it was some of the worst time I ever had in my life. I ended up staying in my room every single fucking day only reading shitty novels I downloaded off Project Gutenberg and listening to anime soundtracks. Never had any friends partly because of the language barrier but also partly because I didn’t wanna make friends with a bunch of weird foreigners.
There’s really no place like home and nothing, absolutely nothing, can ever replace intimate familiarity with a place like that.
IRL Japan has no oneesans or lolis who will kindly receive me and allow me to become their friend so no fucking point of ever setting foot on some foreign territory just for the sake of isolating myself and making myself feel even more like shit.
Anybody who thinks otherwise is just fucking delusional and doesn’t even understand why moege and slice of life manga exist.

>>25413756
except even if you use anki you still have to look words up anyway. you will for years. and once you already know a couple thousand words the frequency of new ones becomes so low that the opportunity cost of using anki to learn them all stops making sense

>>25451192
>partly because of the language barrier
found your problem

>>25451251
Even if you don’t know a language you can detect differences in terms of accepted behavior and customs through body language.

>>25451221
Explain why there’s niggas with decks that have over 30k words

>>25451192
>I didn’t wanna make friends with a bunch of weird foreigners
Found your problem

>>25451315
because theyre ankidrones and not acquirers

>>25451293
sounds like you are self conscious and scared of rejection or just have a boring personality
making friends is easy otherwise

>>25451192
Many people in Austria speak English, you only have your own autism to blame

>>25447042
>You guys can act like chads if you try hard enough
Can't I act like myself?
Because if acting like someone I'm not is a requirement to get a girlfriend, I'll gladly stay single.

>>25448857
>mnemonics
What’s that

Anki
Tae Kim
8+ hours every day
>wahh why so much time
Come on, it's not like you have anything more important to do fucker

>>25342662
nyaa.si you gay newfag, i just spoonfed you so promise to never spoonfeed anyone ever

>>25451192
Well, yea dude if you're a loser at home you're gonna be a loser anywhere else.

>>25442352
Pimsleur is god tier, you wont become fluent with it but I did the entire thing and learned more than any other method. I learned enough to get around Japan with ease during my first visit.

>>25474052
That's awesome. Glad I'm not wasting my time then. Did lesson two today and I'm really pleased so far

A couple things I was wondering though is if it teaches the written language in any capacity, or if you need to supply your own resources for that.
Also having done the course for long enough to get around Japan, how confident were you with each lesson before moving on? The course says if you are 80 percent correct with your answers to move on, but I get paranoid when I end the day with vocab in the days lesson that didn't properly resonate with me.

From what I gathered from my time on this board before djt was Rtk and then mine vocabulary but to be more specific, here is what I’m going to do in my next attempt to learn Japanese.
1. Heisig Rtk at 30 cards per day until I reach the end of the book using kanji.koohi website.
2. While I’m doing heisig I would listen to pimsleur levels 1 through 3 then 4 and 5 (pay for it, I can’t find level 4 and 5 for free*) also referesh my memory with kana in the meantime
3. Go through nukemarines guide on memrise. This should take probably a year and will get me to jlpt 3 when completed. This goes over the tar Kim grammar guide and vocabulary.
4. Lingq like crazy everyday and listen for at least 2 hours per day. Lingo will be my main source for learning by year 2.

>>25477438
>RTK
>Pimsleur
>Nukemarime’s Guide
>LingQ
How the fuck can a single post have so much dumb and useless shit mixed together?

>>25477438
Stop grinding and just stick to Pimsleur

>>25477438
>Start grinding shit before you know anything
Seems like a great guide on how not to learn Japanese

>>25477438
You are going to overwhelm yourself and retain nothing. Go with a single grammar system like Pimsleur, and if you really want to push yourself tack on a vocab system too.

>>25479257
Pimsleur doesn't teach grammar, you dumb nigger. It only teaches isolated phrases that might be of use to a tourist, and doesn't cover anywhere near enough to even understand film dialogue or regular Youtube videos

>>25479764
You're an idiot, my guy

>Only teaches isolated phrases
The reason Pimsleur is so gratifying is because it takes those phrases and breaks them down into individual parts so you understand why they are the way they are. Not every system you don't like is automatically Duolingo2.0

Kill yourself if you use duolingo

>>25479794
I used Pimsleur for both German and Japanese for a short while, and what I noticed in both is exactly what I previously mentioned, which is that instead of giving formal lessons of grammar, the recordings only give translations for either phrases or words.
It really is nothing but Duolingo minus writing.

>>25482013
I can't help but disagree.

What about Mass immersion approach? Anyone here used it here?

>>25479088
>>25479065

I know you guys are elitist and everything is shit to you but come on now. My approach makes the most sense. It's either that or vocab mine from visual novels which was another popular technique. Not sure why things have changed.

>>25492447
How long have you been doing it?

>>25492763
I tried once several years ago and gave up. I had a Japanese study folder sitting on my old hard drive for the longest time and meant to go through it but the only thing I kept up with is wanikani up to level 10 and gave up again. This will be my third attempt.

>>25492876
And you don't think it might be time to take some advice and not juggle 6 different programs?

>>25493179

Not understanding what you mean. This was the guide I attempted to follow several years ago:
https://fuwanovel.net/2013/02/how-to-read-visual-novels-in-japanese-in-2-years-time-or-1-year-if-you-are-fast-%E2%80%95-learn-to-read-through-vn-or-anime/

Since I already know hiragana/katakana (just need a refresher really), step 1 is already done. Step 2 would take a little under 3 months. Heisig is purely memorizing the writing and recognizing the character and not so much actually learning Japanese so in the meantime I can do Pimsleur levels 1 to 3. Each level takes 1 month and by the time I'm done with level 3 I'll be done with Heisig.

Then following nuke's guide here: https://community.memrise.com/t/course-forum-lets-learn-japanese-course-series-formerly-sgjl/1100

I would already be done with LLJ 01- 03 and can start his Tae Kim deck. That's the only thing I'll be doing, just going through his program until it's done. When that's done, which will take at least 1 whole year on memrise, I move on to Lingq which has the yotsuba manga, etc, on there for reading.

>>25203359
Japanese chans

>>25494251
All you need is Core2k and Tae Kim’s Guide in order to start reading Japanese stuff, nothing else.
RTK is only useful if you actually need to write stuff by hand in Japanese, but if you only want to get the benefit of distinguishing kanji by radicals, you could just make up your own names for radicals and create your own mnemonics for words as you come across them.
You can learn the rest of the vocabulary as you come across it.
LingQ really doesn’t do any better of a job than Yomichan+Anki.

>>25203359
CUTE

>>25497458
Yeah, and the nuke guide goes over core 2k and tae kim guide. It's almost like you're suggesting I memorize words through osmosis. As expected of /jp/, you guys never changed.

>>25498676
Different anon but yes, learning through osmosis is fucking powerful if you do it right.
The sooner you get exposed to real Japanese content, the sooner you can start improving functional proficiency. You plan on memorizing every character with Heisig but you won't be exposing yourself to any actual text for 1yr+ and even then text that won't resemble the sort of stuff you want to read (unless your goal is to be reading Yotsuba.)
My tactic was Genki 1, understand how radicals and on/kun-yomi works, then straight into mining easy native text for adults (NAVER まとめ, magazine articles, etc) then easy VN and short stories, mining some vocab into anki, sometimes reading speed and minimizing lookups, checking grammar in Tae Kim if I didn't understand it. My takeaway is not to get too hung up in process and try to smash the mental barrier of "I can't read any native content without training wheels" ASAP.

>>25498676
I'm not suggesting that people that you'll learn words through osmosis at all. Rather, what I'm suggesting is that it makes more sense to make an effort to learn words from works you're actually interested in consuming (this can include Japanese Wikipedia articles if you happen to have some interest in those). Spaced repetition systems can to some degree help, but the words that you're most likely to easily assimilate will be the ones that you actually intend on knowing, be it because you might want to be able to say them some day, or because you want to not have to look them up again while reading (or listening to something).
In addition, context heavily helps color words, and allows you to understand how they work together, as opposed to in isolation, making you also distinguish from near-synonyms.
Japanese, just like any other major language, has hundreds of thousands of words, so it'd be somewhat ridiculous to spend decades grinding enough flashcards so that you can end up not having to look anything up.

>>25203359
日本の学生の先生をオンラインで見つけるにはpreply.com 使うよ。

>>25487836
Redpill me

Anki is just glorified flashcards. Have fun learning pronunciations and sentence structure, idiots

>905
>flashcards are just glorified flashcards
lol nice troll

>>25178536
This green little shit tells you in the tips for each lesson and in the tips on each loading screen that you need to practice outside the app as well like writing shit out .
If you just play it like a puzzle game you are not gonna develop skills like knowing what to go for without multiple choice

>>25508009
So what do you think makes it so much better than Duolingo? They are both ass

>>25508536
Anki at least allows people to
1. make flashcards out of any kind of stuff. It can be words, people’s names, place names, ranks, chemical substances, etc.
2. modify the styling (font, color, background color) of cards using nothing but basic HTML and CSS
3. add pictures, sound clips, video clips, scientific formulas in LaTex, or even plain text if so desired
Duolingo, in contrast, is limited to whatever has already been approved, and can thus only have a limited set of phrases or words that any user is allowed to learn from a language through it, as opposed to being able to create content for themselves.

I do think it’s impossible to learn a language solely through flashcards, but that’s a separate issue from whether or not flashcards should be used at all.

>>25507893
It’s the ol’ “read and listen to lots of stuff with the aid of a dictionary in one language, review words through flashcards, and do a bit of grammar/phonetics study if necessary” except turned into something somewhere between a fashion statement and a cult based on the vaguely defined idea of ”immersion”.

>>25508890
I would definitely recomment Wanikani over anki. It goes slowly, but you will get a comprehensive knowledge of not only kanji but a bunch of vocabulary. Wanikani also forces you to get each item correct 7 or 8 times, and paces your review sessions for you. On top of that, I use a textbook and I have a Japanese tutor online.

Why even bother learning Hiragana when 99% of shit is written in Katakana?

>>25507893
It's a brute force approach, where you immerse yourself in nothing but Japanese language, kinda like being dropped in Japan with no translator or dictionary and you just have to learn it the hard way. Certainly effective but demanding.

>>25509139
You know that there’s an Anki deck for WaniKani, don’t you?
>inb4 Yes I know, but I just wanna shill muh shitty methods because I’m getting paid 3 cents a month for it

>>25509236
Is there any point in calling it MI”A” if it’s really nothing but reading and listening to stuff with the aid of a dictionary, entirely using material you gotta search for on your own, instead of there being some kind of all-purpose Bible or textbook you can use?

I’m not claiming I’m against it, but I think it’s really not something that should have to have a name (since it’s not really that different from the method that philologists used to learn to read Latin and Greek from the Renaissance era onwards), or be associated with a certain person’s thoughts and image.

>>25509309
That doesn't really defeat my point. I'm saying that the way WaniKani administers kanji and vocabulary is better than using an Anki deck, even if the vocabulary was identical for both. I wouldn't be opposed to using an Anki deck to supplement Wanikani, but I do not think Anki is sufficient.

I'd love to hear why you think Wanikani is shit though

>>25509516
Never claimed using WaniKani is bad (or at least any worse than using the Kodansha Kanji Learner’s Course or KanjiDamage).
What I don’t really see the point in is in paying nearly a hundred dollars per year for a compilation of mnemonics in English for Japanese words.
English translations for Japanese words can be fine if used for the sake of understanding texts in Japanese, but because of the fact that Japanese words often have several different English words that they are more or less similar to in terms of meaning, none of which is quite the exact correspondent in terms of both meaning and usage, it seems excessively elaborate to me to have to use mnemonics solely made up of English words for the sake of memorizing one Japanese word.

I'd rather have a thousand more kanji to learn than have so many onomatopoeic words with no indication of meaning constantly thrown around in normal conversation. Even English isn't this retarded.

>>25509995
>my boom-boom was elevated after I saw that

The absolute state of Japanese

>>25510121
>He zoomed past the policemen running behind him trying to catch him for stealing $20k worth of women’s jewellery
Fucking Nips, seriously,

>>25487836
>>25509236
What programs use this strategy? It sounds like a good way to practice after my Pimsleur lessons

>>25510556
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfk0d6l2Jgk

>>25510310
there are comparatively few of these words in english but they're a huge disgusting tumor in modern japanese

>>25510556
You could try looking up the names of different subjects in Japanese on Youtube (like 数学, 歴史, 生物学) and find educational videos made for elementary and middle school children. I’m not sure how much somebody with the comprehension level of a 2 year old might understand, but I suppose you might be able to learn some stuff just through visuals.
Then again, if you can actually understand regular spoken Japanese as it appears in films and TV series, you might not have much trouble spotting a few unknown key words whose meaning you might be able to figure out through context either due to your previous experiences with those same topics in English or if they somehow happen to be clear enough to you on their own.

But if you’re really desperate, you could just turn the auto-generated subs and look every single word up in the dictionary till stuff kind of starts making sense.

>>25509422
Checked
>since it’s not really that different from the method that philologists used to learn to read Latin and Greek
That is called the Grammar-Translation Method, and it works by studying the grammar rules (in your native language), vocabulary, and practice by reading and translating sentences from the target language (usually classical texts). It sounds simple, but language knowledge is not the sum of grammar + vocabulary.

This >Mass Inversion Approach sounds to me like something we already have a name for: working hard (and perhaps grinding). Working hard yields good results, it is the only way to learn language. Devoting A LOT OF time and energy to practicing Japanese will make you good at Japanese. Or any other language. Or anything, really.

Grinding will burn you out really quickly, though. This is the reason why I dislike the approach used in Remembering the Kanji and >just learn 10k words first. I prefer productive learning, where you can feel that you have improved directly by literally being able to do something that you weren't able to before.

From what I have read, "MIA" is a comprehension-based approach. It relies on the idea that you should only start production (speaking/writing) once your comprehension skills have reached a certain level. To me, this is problematic. I believe the goal of language learning is to be able to communicate, which involves reception AND expression. I prefer communicative approaches, where you do both reception and production from the very beginning. It will make you feel (and be) able to actually function using a language, and you will gradually become better (you might start to understand eroge somewhat later though, but you will be able to converse with Japanese girls (female and male) MUCH sooner). I have met countless people who were able to read a language, but they totally sucked at any kind of production. From my experience, those who do both from the beginning will get better at both in the end.

There isn't really one jack-of-all-trades language learning approach, you should use different ones for different purposes.

There's no point learning Japanese unless you want to read certain materials or live in Japan
The only reference I realized I have of the type of Japanese people I'd like to get along with are either their country's respective normalfags (Center-of-the-party types. They're charismatic and make a lot of references I wouldn't understand unless I myself was born in Japan) or their country's respective outcasts.
Realistically speaking, I can't get along with my country's respective normalfags and any ties I make with my country's respective outcasts are usually severed a few weeks in for various reasons. What's even the point of studying Japanese if I can't get along with either in my own country?
Is there even a reason to push through with this if I already know I'll eventually overstep my boundaries or make every interaction I have with them awkward because I don't understand that actor's shtick or that brand's prominent features or the very person's personal situation with respect to unspoken culture?

>>25530935
I'm learning it so I can talk to the girls in Gensokyo when I finally move there.
>I don't understand that actor's shtick or that brand's prominent features or the very person's personal situation with respect to unspoken culture
This also happens to me in my home country, so in my case, not much would change.

>>25530482
>Japanese girls (female and male)
fuckin lol

>>25530482
>To me, this is problematic.
Stopped reading there. If you can't understand (reading and listening) the language, you can't produce in that language (write and speak).

>>25449315
Pretty sure they say it's best if you at very least know the context/topic or, even better if, you know the approximate translation in english before using it for listening.
While looking up words that catch your attention and looking them up to add to your srs deck.
Why are you /djt/ faggots so hyberbolic about everything.

>>25509516
Wanikani and Anki fulfill roughly the same goal (SRS) so you are essentially just paying to use their specific mnemonic stories and clicking around on their gamified UI.

>>25530482
I dunno about other people but I'm quite enjoying RTK at the pace that I'm going.
The implications behind the some of the more pictographic kanji are usually pretty funny and sometimes looking up more about clusterfuck Kanji like 'love', you can see that it literally used to be a drawing of a dick meaning 'to fuck'.

>>25537246
You can understand in steps and produce in steps.

>>25530482
I noticed some pretty decent speech gains from MIA type approach even though I didn't speak out loud for a whole year between visits to Japan. Listening to a lot of speech helped me be able to internalize and unconsciously mimic mimic sentence patterns and common phrases rather than produce them consciously, so I was able to talk much more fluidly. Of course getting conversation practice would be more efficient . But I was happy and I didn't feel like I was "grinding" because it was time spent reading, playing games, and watching YouTube instead of studying textbooks...

>>25531520
What if I’m still in uni and want to be a lawyer, which is a shit occupation in Japan and taking formal education for that wouldn’t even be legal (or usable at all with the difference in technicalities and rules) to use in foreign lands?

>>25342662
https://itazuraneko.neocities.org/library/manga/mangalist.html

>>25542764
>What if I’m still in uni and want to be a lawyer
I don't see how that would stop you from going to Gensokyo.
>which is a shit occupation in Japan
You can still go to Japan without having to live there.

hxh is the only series worth learning japanese for but good luck staying motivated having to watch 12 episodes of the worst slice of life trash ever fucking made EVERY DAY in order to make progress.

>>25543618
>hxh
Why would anyone ever watch that gay trash?

>>25543577
>Going to Japan temporarily
No matter how often I would do this, if I don't actually live there and integrate with the community by making it a vital part of my daily life then I see no point going through all the trouble of learning how to communicate with them
Also
>Gensokyo
I know this is a 2hu reference but I don't play the games so I don't know what you're talking about when you say you're going to Gensokyo

>>25544465
>no point going through all the trouble of learning how to communicate with them
What was the point of your other post, then?
If you don't want to learn Japanese, then don't.

>>25544563
My point was that I don't see a point in learning it unless it's Anon's intentions to read Japanese materials or live in Japan, trying to discourage anyone in a similar situation as mine who cannot or will not move to Japan but still had intentions of studying their language because they were mesmerized by whatever they saw
There's hundreds of different places in the internet for people to talk about these things, anyone who chooses to go here to talk about it probably can't integrate in their own communities, there's no point in hoping it'll be better elsewhere unless you have to change who you are and try to keep up with everyone else in which case save yourself the time and effort and just do the same in where you live

>>25181479
Works alright for me too. You just can't rely solely on it. You gotta look to other sources to help fill in the holes between the concepts you learn.

So far I'm at a point where I can combine the different topics together to make some decent sentences. Though I'd say I'm still too early on. Something like day 80 or something.

Got all the Hiragana and Katakana down and at this point can read up to ~70 - 90 kanji. Keep at it, everyone.

>>25543618
What went so wrong in your life that you feel compelled to write posts like this over and over?

>>25543618
'ate textbooks
love shitty moe
simple as

Do Mass Immersion Approach, OP. They have everything available for free on their website, and Matt vs. Japan has a YouTube account where you can see him speak Japanese; even to native Japanese speakers he sounds very fluent. He's gotten really good at the language, and has streamlined his methods as much as possible and made them all available for free. Check it out.

>>25530482
You're gonna ingrain a lot of bad habits by outputting early. There's no reason to output early unless you're in Japan and have to. Your time would be better spent immersing in native content

Watch amachan

I just began studying Hiragana today
What's the difference between pronouncing じ and ぢ? Is the first one "Chi" and the second one "Dji" or am I mistaken?

>>25549560
Nothing in pronunciation. It is almost always じ (ji). ぢ (type: di) is used when a word the originally began with ち is in a compound word an became voiced (rendaku). You have to learn this with the words. An example would be the name 美月【ミヅキ】, where the second kanji 月【つき】 becomes づき.

>>25549942
Holy crap it took me a few minutes to absorb what you just said but I think I get it now. It makes sense now, thanks a lot
Does the rendaku only occur when the compounded word that includes ち come first or is it always transformed into ぢ?

>>25342140
I kinda wish there were good manuals in my native language, learning something like japanese in english seems daunting.

>>25550105
No problem, it's not as hard as it sounds at first.
>Does the rendaku only occur when the compounded word that includes ち come first or is it always transformed into ぢ?
No, rendaku is when you have a compound word and the non-initial compounded word's initial consonant becomes voiced (or gets a °), it happens with other voiceless consonants as well. There are tons of words like this, e.g. 手【て】 hand + 紙【かみ】 paper手紙【てがみ】 letter. It is somewhat regular, so you'll recognize it pretty soon, but it's not regular enough to predict, so you just have to learn it word by word. It's good to remember that this only happens with words that are of Japanese origin (so no Chinese loanwords or foreign words in katakana).
Another similar thing you should pay attention to is おう vs. おお. When it's a long お, it is usually written as おう, but there are some words where it's おお like 氷【こおり】 ice or 大きい【おおきい】 big, etc. You have to learn this too. This is why using ō in romanization is retarded, it is used in "Ōsaka【おおさか】" and "Itō【いとう】 Junji," but in actual fact those two are completely different, although they sound the same.

>>25550520
I don't think I'm well versed enough to grasp completely what you mean so I'm copying this post in a notepad for future reference. Right now all I could get from it is to be cautious of compound words being voiced (I think I can understand what you mean with the "long o" vs "ou"). Thank you, Anon.

>>25551115
Just always learn the word as it is written in Japanese, and you can't go wrong with that. The long o thing it completely unrelated to rendaku, it was just something I didn't understand when I started

>>25290085
Just like the rest of /jp/, and the rest of 4chan, and the rest of the internet, it went to shit. If you want any even slightly helpful advice on learning Japanese, go to the OTHER djt.

>>25547406
what in the eff is wrong with that? the situation comes up often so i have to warn people often. it's not the big deal you're making it out to be.

Anyone know how to fix the formatting of Yomichan Anki cards after the update broke it?

Thinking of trying Mass Immersion as a suppliment to my Pimsleur courses. Good idea or will trying to juggle different strategies throw me off?

>>25565482
immersion is gonna help you with any other "method" because immersion is essential. pimsleur is dumb but if motivates you to stay with it then whatever.

Is the little green shit a good way to learn English? Or is there something better?

What's wrong with Pimsleur? Its the only course that I feel like puts just as much emphesis on pronounciation and sentence structure as it does in vocab, unlike even Anki

>>25565740
Meant for
>>25565499

>>25565740
nothing compares to just going through native material and using your brain, i tried pimsleur and it was shit just like rosetta and duo and every other shitty scheme to trick language learners out of a buck

>>25567025
Genuine question, not being facetious, have you ever actually used Pimsleur?

I see this opinion comparing it to shit like Duolingo a lot but then come to find out the person has only ever sampled it, or worse, saw the payment model and dismissed it outright. Meanwhile people who actually used it, at least from what I've seen, claims it works

>>25567797
It is FAR better than Duolingo. Just try it. If you like it, you will want to start learning Japanese.
>>>/v/520949582

>>25567916
Not him, why do these files seem different than the ones in my subscription?

>>25568905
>unironically giving out money for Pimsleur
Holy fucking 気持ち悪い fucking Americans I swear
There are more than 1 versions, it gets revised sometimes.

>>25569174
I have enough money for it to be worth the app exclusive supplementary quizes alone.
How about you let me do me and you do you

>>25541441
Which is not a very good way to learn a language. It seems you're one of these people who wants to talk with natives, despite making lots of errors and being misunderstood. In the case of Japanese, you need to understand all the Kanji or you don't understand. You can't use the "understand in steps and produce in steps" because of the inseparable connection between the meaning of the ideograms and vocabulary.

>>25569438
If you'd just straight up announced you are mentally challenged, we would have understood and let you be.

>>25569969
Not really, it's just you hating to be contradicted. Some people need to understand very well, so when they speak, the translation process is automatic and unconscious. Instead of being botched and full of beginner errors, which is usually the norm on a "step by step" learning process.

How do you deal with reading Kanji on W10 and firefox? and whatever I did to make the fonts larger doesnt help.

>>25569438
>>25570103
I'm not saying "force output" or mangle the language trying to translate your deep english ideas into basic bitch 101 Japanese grammar. I'm saying when you know a phrase you shouldn't hold back on saying things you know how to say, and getting comfortable saying the correct things is important.

And don't give me that "you need to understand all the Kanji" bullshit. I doubt you understand over 4000 kanji and you obviously don't need to to read basic shit.

how do you make the little mid-height dot that people use to separate some katakana words

>>25571640
ｌｉｋｅ ｔｈｉｓ・
I'm using SwiftKey on android. If I type in a period it brings it up as a suggestion. I'm not sure exactly how it works on PC.

>>25571640
Any special character I need I just look it up in the Internet and copy it straight from the front page of google’s results

I have been doing it for years, whenever things slow down in my life. If you like Manga, this is one way to do it.
1. First, I got a bunch of Mangajins. Basically they are these monthly magazines designed to teach expats in Japan how to speak Japanese. It is somewhat geared to business people, but the great thing is, they have tons and tons of example sentences. They would show a manga scene, write down all the dialogues, and just tear each word and phrase apart with translation and grammar explanation. I skip over all the articles in the magazines, and just focus on these sentence examples for grammar/vocabulary; it is a really efficient way to get a good solid base of vocab/grammar down, since you don't have to look up anything; the grammar point is repeated every time it shows up, as if expecting you to have gotten all prior lessons.
I read Mangajin, the whole thing (and there are tons of issues), maybe at least 10 times. There are also really fun mangas they use as examples.
2. After that, there was a period where I was just reading various mangas. What I would do is, buy the Japanese and English version of same manga. I would have the English on one side, then Japanese on the other. This helps with efficiency, since I don't have to look up as much words on the dictionary.
Just choose whatever manga you like...I bought my Japanese mangas on sites like honto.jp
3. Then I went to Animelon.com This is a really good way to just increase your listening skill exponentially. Basically, the site has tons and tons of anime with English/Japanese subtitles showing at the same time, and you can pause and rewind after every sentence.

Overall, I think I have spent multiple hundreds of hours on this, and getting to a point I am happy with.
I think the benefits are just the immersion: watching Konosuba and knowing exactly what each person is saying, and the grammar behind their words, is an insane feeling.
But it is a long, long, long path, but the way I did it was basically completely through Manga, so I had fun the entire time. I try as much as possible to read as little English/English explanation as possible and maximize Japanese intake, which is a great way to learn new languages

>>25571640
ニート・ノ・ニチジョウ
Forward slash standard for Romaji input on mozc and any other desktop IME I've tried

>>25572814
While I question your tastes, do you happen to have a Mega link or anything similar containing these Mangajins? I don’t have a lot of money to spend on physical manga (shipping fees are hell) so it would be greatly appreciated

>>25572935
Great question, here is the link to easily access all of them: https://penpal.jp/go/mangajin/
I didn't even know this existed until you asked! I first got them many years ago by random megaupload places. Score!

>>25573014
>https://penpal.jp/go/mangajin/
One more thing: if you plan to use Mangajin, try to first start from Issue 17...they get better/more consistent with showing Hiragana from that point on, so it is easier to learn efficiently (you will see what I mean).
Mangajin really jumpstarted my learning, it is such a great resource. Enjoy!

>>25573014
Sweet, thanks man

>>25178536
Question
I dont really want to learn kanjis (or at least, not a lot of them), I just want to talk and being able to understand by listening.

However, most of the classes/books are focus on learning kanji rather than actual talking/listening. So, is there a effective way for this or I should always focus on kanji?

>>25573240
yup, this guy needs rtk

>>25573240
Instead of avoiding Kanji, learn Radicals
It'll make things a hell of a lot easier when learning Kanji

duolingo is fucking trash. use imabi or tae kim for grammar and wanikani to learn kanji/vocabulary, its the only way

>>25573258
I just heard about this, it sounds really helpful so I will try this. Thanks anon

Also I'm not trying to avoid kanji, it's just that sentences works so different from my native language (and yet, pronunciation are similar) that I feel I should really focus on that before learning a certain amount of kanji per day.
Japanese is a pretty intimidating language for sure.

>>25574155
Slow and steady wins the race, you just need to make sure you're prepared to go at it knowing everything you already know and don't know yet
If you haven't checked it out yet (which it sounds like you haven't if you didn't know about Radicals yet), refer to the guide on the DJT in the catalog. It should tell you most of the possible approaches you could use in learning Kanji

>>25573240
Maybe the Pimsleur thing someone linked to earlier?
It's basically just lessons that you listen to.

>>25573240
>>25574155
The isn't really a proper way to become actually good at listening and speaking but not reading when you study on your own. If you live in Japan, you can pull out of not easily, but it's still undesirable. Imagine learning English without being able to read the words in a newspaper. You don't have to learn any number of kanji a day, but do focus on path learning them. It's a long and tedious process but it's worth it.

>>25570507
Use a better font.

>>25404672
>>25404942
I think Pimsleur is pretty good, just expensive. It is pretty limited what it teaches, but what it teaches you will know at an instinctual level. If you're not interested pirating, you can usually pick up used copies for cheap.

>>25443596
Stick with Japanese.

Does answering questions like filling in the blanks or multiple choice questions helps in learning Japanese? If so, is there anything that does close to it? Currently I'm doing Tae Kim and RTK exclusively.

>>25580775
Gap filling exercises are usually pretty useful. Multiple choice is more for tests than for learning, but it's not like they can't be useful if you analyze the sentences and use them to practice.

>>25580775
>If so, is there anything that does close to it?
I've been using JLPT's practice tests for it.
https://www.jlpt.jp/e/samples/sampleindex.html
https://www.jlpt.jp/e/samples/forlearners.html

Is it a good idea to focus all in on language recognition until I can recognize sentences flawlessly before beginning language production?

>>25573240
Definitely Pimsleur

>>25583494
Like, learn to understand before you learn to speak?
Its possible but definitely not a "good idea". They go entirely hand in hand and being able to vocalize what you are hearing will help you commit the words to memory

>>25585519
Got it
Thanks Senpai

>>25581097
Thanks, I guess I'm way too early to ask for that. I couldn't understand a single question nor the instructions.

watch nihongo no mori.

>>25586690
Start studying vocabulary, even if it's just a few words per day. It won't be too much work, and you'll have learned a bunch by the time you finish Tae Kim.
Also, on the off chance you don't know, N1 is the hardest and N5 is the easiest.

>>25588358
Gotcha. Also yeah I just realized the N1 is the hardest after I posted that. I checked N5 it was a lot more tolerable haha

I can't believe how many people here are discrediting Pimsleur? Its easily my favorite

>>25583494
Not necessarily. The only thing I would strongly recommend is to do a shitload of listening practice before trying spoken output. Otherwise you'll just practice saying the wrong thing.

>>25590268
Just make sure you really sound shit out in parts before spewing it confidently. Know what you are saying but I don't think a "shit ton of listening practice" is necessary

>>25178536
Well, stopping with duolingo would be a pretty fucking good start desu.

Don't bother studying Kanji, get Anki and start with a Core 2k vocab deck to at least have a base. Tae Kim for grammar is... well, it's shit, but it manages to give a very basic understanding of the grammar, so use that as well. At this point you shouln't give much of a shit about nuance.

When you're done, go to NHKEasier and set up AnkiDroid + AnkiConnect to mine vocab. https://dojgdeck.neocities.org/ is good for learning grammar patterns and NHK can help you reinforce them.

When you're finding NHK Easy news to be too easy then, I guess the sky is the limit. I like Imabi to learn the finer points of grammar, shit like LHScan for raw manga, DQNPlus for stupid news, normal NHK for normal news, Syosetu for reading novels (though this last one can easily be the hardest one to get into depending on the novel so I'd try this one last).

>>25578256
>>25443596
>mom is Chinese and will be my guide when we go there to visit relatives and they know some English too
>can learn to make good sichuanese food with the internet
>learning japanese will piss her off
The decision was easy for me.

can I follow https://www.tofugu.com/learn-japanese/
to start off?

>>25591119
>learning japanese will piss her off
Why, I don't get it. We got fucked by the germans, doesn't mean I'd get pissed at my (hypothetical) son if he tried to learn their language. Even if he doesn't make money from it learning a language can never hurt.

I've been studying Japanese for about a month now. I'm using KKLC and learning 13 kanji a day. I write each kanji about 10 times (solely because it helps me remember them better, certainly makes radical stroke order stick) and have a recognition and production Anki deck. I just sketch them on my phone rather than paper. I also learn all associated "key" vocab in KKLC, which is around 2 or 3 different readings per kanji. I should be done on January 24 if I don't miss any days, which I haven't so far, and will have learned 2300 kanji and around 3400 vocab.

My kanji deck accuracy is 97.52% for learning, 97.49% for young. Meaning, correct stroke order and an on-yomi reading is what I have to get right to hit pass. My KKLC vocab deck accuracy is 81.24% learning , 85,37% young, which I think is fine. The accuracy has gradually increased as I get used to study again. I'll start seeing mature cards soon.

I'm pacing myself to finish Genki 1 and 2 by January 24, but I'll probably be done by November and will start 80% immersion, 20% textbook study, probably with Tobira. inb4reeeeeeeeeeeee ur doing it wrong

>>25591524
I'm just assuming it would. Like I put a pittance of effort into learning Chinese (I can speak a little and answer some questions-pick it up alright during a visit. can't read or write though) and I actually learn Japanese and learn to read/write so I can read comic books and watch/understand cartoons. also she gets mad at me very easily. The whole situation would be hilarious for me so I plan to go through with it.

Didn't read the rest of the thread cause I'm a lazy fuck, some good resources for beginners:
Anki: Use for vocab, it is a gift from the heavens given for free to us.
Lingodeer: An easy app to use that is way better than Duolingo by a mile
Wanikani: Probably the best resource to learn kanji
Genki: Kind of old fashioned but it's good for going in depth without being too dense
Italki: Good if you'd rather have a person teach you Japanese or for practicing speaking with a native

These are just the ones I've used, good luck

i keep thinking there must be a better way to study and that i'm inefficient. trying multiple resources and spending more time thinking about studying than actually studying. was it autism? i don't know if i should just grind some kanji,learn about radicals and readings,expand vocabulary or learn more grammar first

>>25594962
>was it autism?
Contrary to what the internet will tell you, not everything is "autism".
You just have so many options that it's hard to pick one. Just try using one of them for a few days, if you're having trouble, try another, until you find what works best.
After trying some stuff, what works best for me is learning entire words and the individual kanjis of words I'm having trouble with. Same thing with grammar, everyone recommends Tae Kim, but for some reason I can't focus while reading it, so I picked something else.

>>25594962
Stick to one system and take your time with it. Don't grind anything, dont juggle multiple systems, just find ONE that sounds like it's good at take it at that systems RECOMMENDED PACE. I can't stress that part enough. The reason so many people get frustrated and hit a wall is because they are overwhelming themselves and cant be patient

>>25595145
This. Its the equivalent of trying to memorize the phone book and wondering if you did something wrong when you cant remember it the next morning

>>25594962
Download a textbook from the DJT resources and just stick with it. Learn vocab and kanji on the side, preferably using the KKLC approach of learning vocab that only uses kanji you know for maximum retention and kanji knowledge. Wanikani also does this, but is slow as fuck and costs money.

>>25178536
AJATT or MIA. Just listen to japanese 24/7

>learn Japanese
>doesn’t fix my voice shifting pitches every other word
Should I work on the latter first? I feel like I might unconsciously begin using the wrong pronunciations if I don’t deal with it now, but I kind of want to work on both at the same time

>>25594542
>Italki
This is perfect thank you

Give it to me straight
When I get to N3 should I just quit this site and move on to 2ch?

>>25607433
im currently studying some n3 grammar just to make sure i know everything in n3 and i still feel like a complete retard so maybe not.

>>25607433
>>25609585
Can someone explain to my what the Ns are? Is it just different levels of learning?

>>25610451
JLPT Levels
When learning a new language, it's best to understand what level of fluency is unanimously agreed upon internationally according to the language's "experts" (I'm not entirely sure how much of an expert the language testmakers are but they're your best bet at international standardization)
For Japanese, it's JLPT (Levels N5 to N1 with N1 being the most fluent)
For Russian, it's TORFL (Levels A1 to C2 with C2 being the most fluent)
For English, it's TOEFL (Levels are a bit janky so don't bother with this one)

>>25610723
Interesting. Thank you

I want to try learning japanese again but I don't want to compile qt just for anki. I guess I'll put it off another year.

>>25611188
You can do it Anon
Even if you don't want to do it just know that the fact that you're postponing it just means you know to yourself that you actually can still do it regardless of the point in time
Find someone to work with (not necessarily real, as long as they're someone you can promise to work hard for and with then that's enough) and power through
Baby steps, man

>>25611188
just learn the basics + read grammar and then do things you want to do in japanese.

>>25611188
Good digits, but never gonna make it

>>25610723
>For English, it's TOEFL
TOEFL is just one of the hundreds of tests for English, and it is actually rated up to C1. It is the best-known and most widely-recognized one, but it is actually geared towards academic English (it is used for college admissions), so it's not just about general language skills. There's also TOEIC by the same company, which is very popular in Japan, that one is geared towards business English.
There are tons of tests for general language skills though, e.g. Cambridge a separate test for each level from A1 up until C2.

>>25591836
>KKLC
Whats this?

>>25618613
Kodansha Kanji Learner's Course. It's a textbook that teaches the jōyō kanji and around 200 more in a structured manner. Unlike RTK, you learn readings alongside the kanji in the form of vocabulary that only uses kanji you've previously learned.

The author marks the vocab he recommends learning, but it's not sorted by how common or useful it is like the Core decks. It's just there to teach you the readings, and the author otherwise recommends learning readings and vocab in context. It's fairly recent and up-to-date (2013), unlike RTK.

>>25619332
Ah yes, 7 years out of date instead of 9 years.

>>25621095
RTK is fundamentally obsolete with the existence of KKLC. Using it is a half measure.

>>25621180
I don't understand why everyone is so desperate to constantly win some kind of war over which approach is the right one and is The Only Way.
Why can't people just research what is available and decide for themselves?

RTK is certainly is a "half measure" for someone interested in just learning how to recognize and read Kanji, but it's pretty obvious that its goals lie elsewhere.
How much value you place in being able to write Kanji from memory is something people need to decide on their own.

>>25621180
kklc is dogshit bro
it takes twice as long and more than twice the effort to learn kanji, thier readings, and vocab together.
if you are going to study kanji, rtk is the only sensible way. it is faster and allows you to begin actually learning japanese faster than kklc will.

>>25609585
>N3 grammar
What other grammar guides should I use once I finish Tae Kim's guide? I'm going to assume Tae Kim will end me up to N5 grammar if not N4 but is there anything else I could use to completely avoid making any grammar mistakes

>>25622509
Yes, learn, not glance. Solely studying kanji before "beginning to actually learn Japanese" is also pants-on-head retarded. One thing I've noticed about 4chan Japanese learners is that they universally lack discipline and seek every shortcut imaginable and write off anything that may take time.

Use textbooks? No, fuck it, cram Tae Kim. Learn vocab or kanji? Fuck it, just text hook.

Its kanji worth learning at all?

>>25626543

if you plan on reading VNs, whats the argument at not texthooking? plenty of people of went from texthooking to being pretty proficient at japanese to not need it, to give the idea to beginners that the "real" way to learn words/kanji is to look up every one manually is just some sounds like sour grapes that you had to do it like that

however, i do agree textbooks are pretty solid and tae kim isn't the de facto grammar guide

>>25626048
im just watching 日本語の森 on youtube. it's really good because everything is taught in japanese.

>>25631963
This seriously helps me, thanks man

>>25626543
Fucking this. This is what you get when the advice comes from amerilards who never had proper language classes and leaned languages in their lives.

>>25627865
It is not the process of text-hooking that's a problem, actually, reading anything in Japanese is good. But dismissing structured language learning in favor of grinding is retarded. Same goes for language classes, they are very effective when you have a good teacher, but it's not the underground way, so they are bad, even though it works.

What's a good resource for some casual Japanese discussion just to practice? Maybe one where foreigners are to be expected

>>25178536
You know what happens now.

>>25627233
Obviously you need to learn kanji if you want to read anything in Japanese. You can try to jump straight into vocab, but chances are it won't stick and you find yourself looking up the same word over and over again because you don't know how the kanji is structured and its suggested meaning in a word.

>>25627233
i think at least learning some radicals and phonetic components will help a lot with remembering onyomi.

Is there anywhere to get BetterTags for anki without having to give my payment info to patreon?