/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>Time for a rant.

Stopped reading right there, partner.

Continues? What's that?

Sorry bro, you suck

>>2484874
Only someone who plays on easy wouldn't know of continues. Try playing on lunatic and tell me you never need to continue.

what exactly does 1cc stand for

>>2484876
So you think beating the final stage with 3 lives instead of 5 is easier?

>>2484880
1 credit clear. It means to beat the game without using any continues.

>>2484880
One Coin Clear

>>2484877

I'm not sure if you missed my sarcasm or not but I'm saying that actually complaining about continues is a sign that you're using them too much.

For all purposes other then practice mode unlocking continues aren't needed and you may as well restart.

>>2484877
If you're challenging Lunatic you shouldn't be using continues anyway.

>>2484894

>I'm not sure

I'm not sure I give a shit.

File a bug report at metalink.touhou.com and they might fix the issues in the upcoming 12g release.

>Bombs also do shit damage
>Master Spark
>shit damage

Oh you.

From the player stand point, the old continue system was better. If someone was bad enough to lose all their lives then they're not going to be able to beat the hardest stages with 3 lives; They're better off starting over and trying to build up their lives. And because of that, that makes the continue system pretty pointless.

Blah blah who needs a continue system blah blah. That's not the point. The point is that it doesn't serve much of a purpose. It might as well not even be in the game.

>>2484901
In case you're dense, I'm referring to Touhou 11 and tell me bombs don't do shit damage. Because if you do then I'd have to say that you haven't played it.

>>2484901
Master Spark is pretty shitty in UFO.

>Once you bomb, you drastically cut down your weapon power
Not in UFO anymore.

Bombs are meant to be used to save yourself from losing a life not to do damage.

>>2484906
11g R1 or R2?

>>2484871
Hello copypasta from poolshmier

Don't continue.

Man up and restart the game.

>>2484932
And don't pussy out by just going to the main menu either.

We're talking Alt+F4 and reopening th11.exe.

>>2484915
You say that like the two aren't equivalent.

Heavily damaged enemy = enemy you won't lose as many lives to
Undamaged enemy = enemy you'll lose many lives to

A bomb that does prevents you from dying but does shit damage is a bomb that's been nerfed.

>Bomb spam through a spellcard
>Not able to catch the star
>Bothering using continues

Umm, why do you try on Lunatic again? Just asking.

The only main thing wrong with Touhou is the scoring. It's almost like you get massive points for everything except killing things. I'm surprised you don't get points for dying. Basically Japanese ZUN has a boner for large numbers, but these numbers are not really obtained in a meaningful or fun way.

I think Japanese ZUN needs to get rid of all the goofy scoring gimmicks (especially Grazing/graze milking) and just give points for blowing stuff up, collecting simple bonus items that add a fixed amount of score, and clearing cards. No more graze milking, cherry faith human/phantom chaining UFO meters.

I'm not sure which continue system I like better. The unlimited continue system makes it easier to challenge a stage until you clear it, but it can be harder to actually clear it, especially if you're trying to unlock levels for practice mode in lunatic.

I definitely don't like the new bomb system though. The old system encouraged you to use bombs with the use it or lose it setup, but the new one punishes you for using them. I guess I just need to start sucking less so I don't have to rely on bombs as much.

>>2484940
How is that a bad thing? Yeah, they're not instant win cards that will let you breeze through everything and no, you can't spam them. They're still incredibly useful for saving your ass just in case.

ZUN decides to make SA more challenging, which is what shmups are all about, and people bitch.

>>2484959
>It's almost like you get massive points for everything except killing things.
You say that like it's a bad thing. The whole "score is determined primarily/only by killing stuff" is overdone.

>>2484959

Tons of shumps have completely different play styles (or gimmicks) when you're playing for score.

I would even say that the majority of them do, it's the norm.

>>2484964
>The unlimited continue system makes it easier to challenge a stage until you clear it

That's what practice is for.

>>2484959
So, from what I gather, you want all Touhous to be like EoSD minus the grazing.
I always thought the graze system was perfectly fitting for a bullet hell shooter, since, you know, you always have stuff to dodge. But, yeah, i agree, there should be more credit for just shooting things. On the other hand, though, the game itself is so short that a gynormous score from mere shooting would be impossible. Besides, the goofy scoring gimmicks fit well a goofy game like this.

>>2485002
You actually have to beat a stage before you get practice mode.

>>2485011
Stupid ZUN said he wanted fixed point items, so you would get the same amount for one no matter where on the screen you collected it.

Getting points for killing stuff is pointless, because pretty much everything dies so easily. You'd get the same score everytime.

I think you shouldn't get _any_ points for killing stuff, just so that you can more easily see what proportion of your score cam from what.

What I don't really like about the score system, (Especially in SA, or MoF) if that you score is basically determined by how often you die. If you collect a lot fewer points items during a run in which you die one time less, you'll have a higher score that when you took a lot of risks to collect a lot of point items.

>>2484959
I agree on scoring being the worst part, but plain old "kill enemy, recieve points" scoring systems are very boring and make for a bad shooter in most cases.

Most good scoring systems are based around how and when you kill enemies. I'll use some Cave games as an example because they are one of the most popular STG companies and have some great scoring systems (which is why they are so popular among the big name arcade scorerunners)

Mushihime-sama's Maniac and Ultra mode scoring systems. It's a very deep scoring system but in a nutshell, whenever you are not shooting an enemy, your hit counter rapidly drops. So you always want to be hitting an enemy. This sometimes requires very careful placement to hit certain enemies as soon as possible, or kill them slowly. There's also many different firing techniques but I won't go into that.

Item-based scores can be good, however. For example, look at Ibara (or any shooter programmed by Shinobu Yagawa). Ibara's scoring system is a mix of strategic item collection, building/enemy destruction, and bullet cancelling via bombs. The rank lowers from bullet-cancelling, so you need to raise the rank ASAP (usaully via the aforementioned item collection) to raise the bullet count, which in turn yields more points.

Another good Cave example is ESPgaluda, where you kill enemies to collect Kakusei gems. The higher up on the screen the enemy is, the more gems they give. Those gems are used to enter Kakusei mode, where time slows down and whenever you kill an enemy, any bullets that they fired turn into points. It's a very, very fun scoring system.

Also, the way the scoring systems carry over to the next level is retarded. Why not just make the game one big level if you're going to do that?

>>2485109

Also to note from Ibara's rank system is that raising the rank not only raises your point yeild but raises the difficulty/bullet density to insane levels, making score runs a real test in survival skill as well.

I really like Ibara's score system.

>>2485124
Personally I think it's one of the best scoring systems in any shooter, ever. The Arrange and Black Label systems at least... I don't play the regular arcade mode very much, although it's got many of the same mechanics.

Playing shmups for score is retarded. Play until you beat the game, then discard it and move onto another. That's how it should be done.

>>2485147
But scoring is 90% of the game, in most cases. You are missing out on a lot.

>>2485147
Also boss rushes are ALWAYS better than stage-boss-stage-boss setups. Stages are fucking boring. Bosses are where the game actually becomes fun.

>>2485159
well now you're just trolling.

>>2485157
Scoring is playing the same damn stages repeatedly, doing the same damn thing each time with a minor variation trying to get a few thousand more points.

Then doing it again.

And again.

And again.

When instead you COULD be playing some other game that is new and interesting.

>>2485164
I'm not trolling actually. I just fucking hate stages. They serve no purpose other than to drop your level of concentration before the boss.

>>2485166
At the risk of sounding like a pretentious faggot, I will say this. That is a very "casual gamer" point of view. The point of arcade games is to score high. There's a reason that they have high score tables and not cleared-the-game tables. If you get 100 million on the first stage and die there, you're going to be above someone who gets 50 million and clears the game. The point of a shooting game is to score high, shooting is just the method of doing so. I guarantee all of the best STG players would agree.

>>2485189
The point of a shooting game is to have fun while shooting things and simultaneously avoiding being shot yourself. Playing for score removes this fun and replaces it with tiresome work.

>>2485221
My first time chaining all of stage 2 in Dodonpachi was much more exciting than my first time 1-ALL clearing it.

I agree that the latter Touhou's really don't need the continue system at all. I've never gotten further after a continue than I got before dying.

I feel like I need practice to be good enough to use the continue system, which seems like an odd design. Continues only for skilled players? Shouldn't those be for people who suck so much they need 10 lives on one level? Just for unlocking that level in practice mode.

>>2485221

I'm with this guy. I've beaten every translated Touhou in lunatic. They took me several hours and many continues each. I enjoyed it, but I have absolutely no intention of ever attempting it again.

>>2484959
>killing things
>Touhou

You're doing it wrong.

hold shift for focused movement

>>2485682
Maybe you'd enjoy scoring if the scoring system in touhou games didn't suck dick.

>>2486097
This guy is doing it right.

>>2484871
You can't hoard lives on a 1CC if you're losing them at such a rate you hit the continue screen, can you?

Though changing the continue system was pretty needless anyway, limited credits unlocked by playtime is the way you do this.

>>2485147
That's like playing a racing game, hitting the goal and calling the game complete no matter what position you finished in. In a well designed STG the score system is not some abstract number system floating seperate from the game, but integral to the design and very deep. DDP chaining is a fairly obvious example, the stages are made entirely so chains can be made - later games thet are even stage long. This is possible because the stages are designed with the scoring system in mind. Progear is another great example, if you don't bullet cancel with emeralds/diamonds on stages 3-5 you are fucked, and cancelling is the scoring system.

Unfortunately this doesn't apply to any of ZUN's titles, with the possible exception of MoF where he tried a chaining system and level design that utilised it. But his chaining system was still based on collectables, game-long, required bomb whoring, had bugged survival cards, and the level design was pretty weak.

>>2484871
the use for continue is just to have an opportunity to practice the stage

>>2486171
>That's like playing a racing game, hitting the goal and calling the game complete no matter what position you finished in.
That is a good analogy. I'm going to use that from now on. Thank you.

The best scoring system is in Ikaruga. You can beat the game normally, and it's challenging enough, but then, you can try to master the game with the chains, and it's a whole new game that you're playing.

>>2486205
That applies to a lot of shooting games...
(or were you being sarcastic?)

>>2486171
>That's like playing a racing game, hitting the goal and calling the game complete no matter what position you finished in

That's a horrible analogy, and you're a fucking idiot. You can't even beat most racing games unless you come in 1st place. Scoring is merely an extra feature that adds a little replay value. It's not important to the game (save for times it grants extra lives, and even then it takes little effort to get every extra life available by score). DDP chaining isn't fun or challenging- it's just annoying.

The way you're talking, it's like saying that beating every level on the original Super Mario Bros. isn't completing the game unless you maximized your score with the shell glitch.

>>2486205
>Ikaruga
>challenging

>>2486229
see
>>2485189
>The point of a shooting game is to score high, shooting is just the method of doing so. I guarantee all of the best STG players would agree.

>>2486240
No. And I doubt any of the opinionated STG newfags on /jp/ would qualify as 'the best STG players'.

>>2486229
I think you'll find most racing games allow you to finish in the top 1-3. And, last I heard, Mario does not have a competitive high-score table.

Face it, you're not good enough to play for survival so when you scrape a win you call the game finished.

ITT: "I play games as a lifestyle, not for fun"

>>2486239
Well, maybe you shouldn't have used infinite continues, right?

>>2486248
>I've never played a racing game before

>not good enough
Well that didn't take long. Already getting frustrated?

>>2486244
All of the best Japanese STG players play specifically for score. Western player PROMETHEUS (One of the best western DDP players, with a 2-ALL 700mil score or something insane like that) says "I never don't play for score". The "opinionated STG newfags on /jp/ would be the ones who play for the one day it takes to 1cc the game and then never attempt to improve.

>>2486255
Ikaruga is ridiculously easy to 1cc (compared to Touhou or Cave at least), even on Hard. I'm not saying it's not fun, but the polarity changing just makes the game a cakewalk...except for the few areas where it's required, which are fun.

>>2486266
I'm not Japanese, and I play games for fun. You can keep on 'improving', if it makes you feel better about yourself.

>>2486171
>You can't hoard lives on a 1CC if you're losing them at such a rate you hit the continue screen, can you?

Everyone makes mistakes. The point is you're better off starting over than using a continue with the new continue system because you have to start the stage with the minimum amount of lives. Beating the hardest stage in the game with the minimum amount of lives is difficult. The new continue system favors skilled players which is the opposite of what a continue is supposed to be. A skilled player wouldn't need the continue because they're skilled. The unskilled player is the one that suffers because they're the ones that need the continue. That's just poor design.

>>2486268
I've 1cc'ed 5 Cave games and cannot 1cc Ikaruga on Hard. Given, I haven't put nearly as much time into it, but stage 4 on hard is gangbang.

>>2486274
And that's why you don't fit into category of "the best" or come anywhere close to it.

>>2486278 here
Also forgot to mention that Ikaruga on Normal is harder than most Touhous on Lunatic...

>>2486266
I'm now convinced that STGfags are worse than Brawl tourneyfags.

>>2486284
Never said I was. Cool reading disorder, bro.

>>2486290
I lol'd.

>>2486205
People whining about DDP chaining obviously have never tried it, once you know the fundamentals (i.e. kill something else immediately after killing a target with your laser) the stage design flow means you only need to learn a handful of tricky links for some big chains.

However, Ikaruga IS all about complete stage memorisation, knowing where every enemy will appear and what colour it will be. It's crap, Treasure are even worse than ZUN at this.

>>2486278
>>2486290
Dumbass detected.

>>2486275
Skilled players don't need continues.
Continues just allow you to keep playing despite you reaching a game over screen.

>>2486291
Because they play for score, like the game was meant to be? They are the polar opposite of Brawl tournament players: Brawl being a game that was designed for shits and giggles with your bros, STGs being games designed for competitive scoring. What a stupid comparison.

And I thought Halo players were annoying.

>>2486305
Hey, downs syndrome, I never said they were similar. I said STGfags were WORSE. That doesn't mean they're at all alike.

>>2486305
Brawl can be played as both, and so can STGs. You're an idiot.

>>2486301
>A skilled player wouldn't need the continue because they're skilled. The unskilled player is the one that suffers because they're the ones that need the continue.

Just as I said. The new continue system favors skilled players but they don't need continues. Why he changed it is beyond me. He just made it worthless. Continues were a good play of unlocking hard and lunatic stages for practice. The best way to improve is the play above the difficulty you're having trouble at.

>>2486291
>>2486297
>>2486300
>>2486308
Go back to /v/, pitiful scum.

>>2486257
His point was you have not finished the racing game if you don't come first. Reaching the end isn't beating it, you have to do it better than everyone else.

>FFFFFFFFF SOMEONES NOT PLAYING A VIDEO GAME THE SAME WAY I PLAY IT WHAT THE FUCK RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE

>>2486334

>>2486308
>>2486319
>>2486332
>>2486339
WOW WHEN DID I GET TO /v/

>>2486334
Cry some more.

>>2486332

Brawl was not designed for tournament play, the goddamn lead developer said so. Any STG lead developer would tell you it's designed for scoring. Sure you can play the game for different purposes if you want, but that doesn't change the fact that one group is playing the game as it's meant to, while the other isn't, making a comparison laughable.

>>2486347
slowpoke.jpg

So you pick a new game, play a credit for ten or so minutes until you lose, and while the continue timer is counting down you consider your options. If you let it time out and start over, you will get another ten or so minutes of playtime, but if you continue you probably won't even last half as long, since the game has obviously got harder now and you obviously can't handle it.

Do you see?

And with each successive time you continue you end up getting less and less playtime, to the point where you might as well just be emptying your wallet's contents into the fucking thing.

But if you take it from the beginning enough times, the opposite starts happening -- you get increasingly more playtime out of each credit, instead of less; eventually, you get to a point where you can go on for twenty minutes or more on a single credit. Get good enough at two-three games, and suddenly spending a few of hours in an arcade ends up being relatively inexpensive.

This is how the one-credit rule began -- with kids cutting school with little money in their pockets, loving these games and wanting to spend as much time as possible with them.

Back then we had no access to freeplay modes. Back then there were no emulators with infinite credits. But though we were forced by circumstances to play these games the hard way, we soon discovered that that was the only way to play them.

We discovered that arcade games are much like sports. You start playing and the game gets harder and harder, and soon enough you hit a wall. And the whole point of it is getting strong enough to break through that wall, and reach the next wall, and become even stronger to break through that wall, etc. etc. If every time you come to a wall you take out a little folding ladder and just use that to climb over, what's the point of the exercise?

Arcade games are all about the adrenaline rush which kicks in within a couple of minutes of starting one, and doesn't let up until you are either dead or managed to beat the game.

It's all about finally reaching the second boss with full health and doing your best to take that sucker down, filled with expectation to see what the next stage looks like, what it sounds like, what it plays like...

And so you failed this time -- you are not good enough yet to kill the second boss -- what's the point of BUYING your way past him?

For fuck's sake dude, you won't even be able to handle the next stage anyway! What satisfaction can you possibly get by going through it while getting killed every five seconds, and bombing, bombing, bombing... ?

Don't you see that all the tension the designers have carefully worked to build into the encounter with that boss is completely ruined if you know that, even if he kills you, you'll get past him anyway? And what reason do you have to get past him like a man, if you've already seen what comes next?

Well, you might have already seen what comes next by watching some other guy play the game, but you still haven't felt what it's like to play what comes next.

And if you continue, you never will! Indeed, you never will exactly because you are used to continuing!

You will never know what it feels like to play through -- not over -- a tough challenge, and move on to an even tougher one, getting better acquainted with the controls and the system, delving into the game at a deeper level of proficiency. Doing stuff on screen that random passerbys find humanly impossible. Conquering the game. Not letting it conquer you.

This is what arcade gaming is all about.

>>2486354
Again, read the damn post. Do you even know what a comparison is?

I'm saying nobody gives a fuck what the developers wanted. People are going to play it both ways. Being a faggot and whining about it all day isn't going to change anything.

>>2486347

>>2486308
Don't compare STGfags to us. At least Halofags have a goal beyond just "LOL HIGH SCORE". STGs are for faggots that can't handle fighting human players, so they fight the same AI over and over again.

>>2486374
Saying "x is worse than y" is comparing x to y. Do you seriously not realize that a comparison was made with the sentence
>I'm now convinced that STGfags are worse than Brawl tourneyfags.
?

Yes, people are going to play both ways, as we can obviously see in this thread, but it doesn't change the fact that playing an STG for score is playing it to its full potential, as you must survive to score, but not score to survive.

>>2486397
A loose comparison at best. I'm saying I never called them similar or different, I just stated that one was worse than the other. There are no details to go on, but people assume I thought they were similar.

>>2486393
Human opponents are always harder than scripted AI. This is why only one western player has a recorded 2-ALL of DDP.

>>2486408
With games like that, you don't need skill. If you play it enough, you'll eventually beat it. It's the SAME EXACT ATTACK PATTERN EVERY TIME. Humans, unlike crappy AIs, can think and move for themselves. It requires more intelligence and skill to deal with the situations other human players put you in.

>>2486416
This. It also makes PvP games (even Brawl) more fun than arcade games. At least you're playing a different variation of the game every time you fight someone. With arcade games, it's the same boring wave after wave of enemies you've seen over 9,000 times.

>>2486424
... Did you just imply there are no versus arcade games?

People from all around, come and observe: This is the Modern Gamer.

>>2486416
Just keep telling yourself you're intelligent and skilled for shooting down some retards in halo.

>>2486416
That is not true. While shooters require lots of memorization (what game doesn't? If you don't know a map in an FPS you're at a huge disadvantage), but the hard shooters require more precision than you could possibly believe. To draw a Halo comparison, think about 10 people running in different directions, and headshotting them all without a scope within 15 seconds or so. Also, it is virtually impossible to memorize the exact placement for some boss fights, especially when they have completely random patterns as in ESPRade's final boss. No matter how many times you see/fight Hibachi in Dodonpachi, you will always need to react to the shots coming at you, there's no way you can memorize and execute your movements to the exact pixel, even on the non-random and non-aimed patterns of Hibachi.

Although I think you're just trolling. I'm not sure, though, so I responded civilly.

>>2486367
>>2486373
So much nostalgia.
;_;

Arcade gaming is gone no thanks to the the console generation.

Help me, ERINNNNNN!!

>>2486440
Touhou/Cave/Ikaruga/etc aren't multiplayer (save for PoFV, if that even classifies as 'arcade'). Crappy online scoreboards don't count as multiplayer either.

>>2486444
Keep telling yourself that playing the exact same level and fighting the exact same boss 50 times makes you 'good at video games'.

>>2486446
Hey look, someone that isn't stupid. You do have a point there. All games are going to require some degree of memorization. The maps you mentioned are a good example. I'm just saying that versus games require more than just simple memorization, but reflexes and strategy to react to other players as well.

>>2486497
Forgot to mention, co-op in STGs isn't 'versus' multiplayer either.

>>2486497
There are more arcade games than just shooters, you know.

Fightan, FPS, RTS and STG scoreboard.
They are just different.
You can be godlike in starcraft but suck in playing Halo.
Being good in STG doesn't mean you are good in playing video game. It just mean you are good in playing that game.
Also did you guys see the video of the guy playing invisible tetris? Sure he isn't playing against other human being but I am damm amazed he can do that.

> I'm just saying that versus games require more than just simple memorization, but reflexes and strategy to react to other players as well.
Playing touhou isn't JUST memorization, no matter how important memorization is. I do not have every facet of every level of ANY of the games memorized, but I can still 1cc normal. Some of it is knowing where to position yourself to shoot, some of it is reflexively dodging attacks like Extreme Color Typhoon, Sylphae Horn, and Eternal Meek. Good luck using memorization to capture Eternal Meek.

>With games like that, you don't need skill. If you play it enough, you'll eventually beat it. It's the SAME EXACT ATTACK PATTERN EVERY TIME. Humans, unlike crappy AIs, can think and move for themselves.
That is irrelevant. Human or AI, it is the same game. There are only so many variations that can be done. A human player does not play by different rules, so the tricks, strategies, movement patterns, whatever are available to BOTH. You do not have anything like absolute creative freedom while playing a game.

>>2486497
Fighting games are arcade games.

STGs still take strategy (streaming, random factors, shot selection, rank suicide, etc), and no matter how good you are at memorising what is coming you're still going to need reflexes to get through it.

>>2486521
And there are those who suck at everything.
Like me.

>>2486497

FPS against other players is not the incredible battle of wits and skill that people seem to think they are. Especially in something like Halo, much of your success depends on your control precision: how well you can keep the crosshair on the enemy while firing. This is comparable to STGs in that your control precision and timing are the most important factor. The tactics and prediction skills in most FPS are very minimal, especially in games like Halo, which require almost none. Just because the thing you are shooting at has freedom of motion doesn't mean it's any harder to hold your crosshair over them while shootin' yer bullets. This is coming from someone who used to play CS quite a bit, which in my opinion is far more tactical and skill-based than Halo, and even then I would not say that STGs are easier than competetive FPS.

>>2486514
I know. But the thread is about STGs, not arcade games in general.

>>2486542
Well you got me there. I really have nothing against STGs (I play Touhou regularly) or arcade games, I'm just sick of people bitching about the different ways to play the game, and, moreover, assuming that the STGs they play somehow makes them 'pro video game players'.

Impolite sage.

>assuming that the STGs they play somehow makes them 'pro video game players'.
Playing touhou will not make you any better at an FPS, RTS, turn based strat, RPG, or any other genre. It will make you better at touhou and STGs in general. Why the fuck would anyone think otherwise?
Hell, when I first got into touhou, I was still playing an FPS online regularly. After I really got into touhou I noticed that I was doing worse at the FPS.

>>2486581
Play MMO and JRPG then.
Those games dont require skill.

>>2486605
>moreover, assuming that the STGs they play somehow makes them 'pro video game players'.
I think very few players think that they are better at all genres. Although, I think with some people there is sort of a pretentious elitism in some people, due to STGs being more "underground" and not really mainstream (except for Touhou), and they generally require more dedication and persistence to improve your skills.

I will be COMPLETELY HONEST HERE THOUGH: I personally think that STG require the most concentration of any genre except perhaps RTS (which I fucking SUCK at). I think that FPS are relatively easy and simple, not to mention there's a lot more flaming retards in the FPS community. So I guess that makes me an elitist myself (or at least an FPS hater), but hey, whatever.

But really, all competitive games will be difficult given that there is sufficient competition; even the most simple of FPS can be challenging given good competition.

Probably a bunch of hypocrisies and nonsensical crap in this post but I'm too tired to edit/proofread it.