/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Because all alignment threads devolve into a discussion about Batman.

Everyone _thinks_ they know alignments. Also >>2425401 this.

>>2425401

you have no idea how much this comment just made my day

Batman isn't a superhero.

>>2425430
I know. Real. Have to pump his speed up.

>>2425434
>>2425430
Did you just get Super Robot Wars in my alignment discussion?

>>2425441
Awesome.

Alignment thread or not, I still don't see why they always have to be in the form of motivational posters.

>>2425455
Because they're as overdone as the threads they belong in.

>>2425455
Because the format works very well for this type of thing. Would you rather just put text over an image? I don't think it would look very good that way.

>>2425441
Silly Anon. There are only five alignments and you still missed two of them.

/thread

>>2425564
Sikieiki is Lawful Neutral. She's a mostly impartial judge, and all the lectures she gives aren't about being morally "good", they're about being lawful and orderly.

>>2425584

In Japan, that's the same thing.

>>2425564
I find the interpretation of apathy equaling neutrality boring.

>>2425606

Then what alignment would you have a character who doesn't care enough to pick sides as being? It's not like anyone is saying that neutrality is exlusively for apathy.

>>2425606

There's two interpretations of True Neutral.

One is apathy or inability. Simply not caring or not acting in any direction at all.
The other is perfect balance. Even if you act for good at times, you will never work for the abolition of evil and act in favor of it if it faces peril. Likewise for every direction.

Perfect Balance types are the ultimate backstabbers, though. Chaotic Neutral has nothing on them.

Huh? What do you mean "Chaotic Good"? Only Evil things are chaotic. The alignments are Lawful Good, Good, Unaligned, Evil, and Chaotic Evil.

>>2425617
I asked that to myself before I said it was incorrect and decided to say it was boring instead. Patchy doesn't really fit in anywhere else, it's just that I always have a great expectation to the true neutral place, and I always get a little disappointed when it's taken by someone who can't be bothered to or is unable to have values.

/tg/ is that way if you want to talk about D&D
=>

>>2425617
True Neutrals aren't apathetic.

They strive for perfect balance, meaning they'll always pick the losing side in any battle just to balance the situation.

>Everyone _thinks_ they know alignments. Also >>2425401 this.

True, sadly.

>>2425629

People who are True Neutral still have values, they just aren't morally or ethically based. They'll still have loyalty to their families and those important to them, for example.

I do usually houserule a difference between Neutral and True Neutral, though.

>>2425622
Edition war baiting? In /jp/?

>>2425564
>>"for the lulz"
>>bad spelling everywhere

Fucking Christ. Lawful Evil is the only one here that's even remotely clever.

Bonus points for almost making me vomit.

>>2425639

You're thinking of druids (IN BEFORE YOU KNOW WHAT). Every other True Neutral just doesn't care. Hell, *mindless animals* are considered True Neutral.

>>2425620
I've always seen the main type of true neutral character to be the kind who does not believe in any ultimate law or moral, nor goes against them. They can have motivations, just other motivations than the greater good of all people or personal gain.

>>2425601
i like this

old image is old

and debated

>>2425665

Frankly, Touhou canon doesn't really give you enough to go on. You'd need seperate charts for GRIMDARK interpretation and idealistic interpretation.

>Some argue that taking alignment seriously in any way entails failure because it tries to simplify and categorize something philosophers, sociologists, theologists and psychologists have been debating for thousands of years with no tangible results. A famous example shows the goddamn Batman in various periods of his comic and his actions and words correspond to pretty much all existing alignments. Recent developments in D&D (Eberron, 4th Edition) have been relaxing and ignoring the old rigid structure.

>Others argue that those people don't understand fuck about how the two-axis alignment system is meant to work and that using an inconsistent comic book character who has been written by dozens of different people over the course of his existence to try and demonstrate that the system fails is completely missing the point.

>Debate continues.

>>Lawful neutral is called the "Judge" or "Disciplined" alignment. A lawful neutral character typically believes strongly in Lawful concepts such as honor, order, rules and tradition, and often follows a personal code. A lawful neutral society would typically enforce strict laws to maintain social order, and place a high value on traditions and historical precedent. Examples of lawful neutral characters might include a soldier who always follows orders, a judge or enforcer that adheres mercilessly to the word of the law, a disciplined monk, or a cowardly commoner.

>>2425651
Aren't mindless animals under Chaotic Neutral?

Meaning they do what they want, when they want?

>>2425622
No. Chaotic does not mean evil. It means someone or something that does not believe laws are good or useful. Someone who kills a tyrant to save the people that tyrant was oppressing would be chaotic good.

>>2425712
The alignment you're trying to pigeonhole as being the same as Chaotic Evil is called Good.

>>2425697
Mindless animals are actually all True Neutral since it takes at least 3 Intelligence to qualify for a capacity of morals and ethics.

>>2425697

No, they're not. Look at a MM.

>>2425697

>http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm

>Animals and other creatures incapable of moral action are neutral rather than good or evil. Even deadly vipers and tigers that eat people are neutral because they lack the capacity for morally right or wrong behavior.
>Animals and other creatures incapable of moral action are neutral. Dogs may be obedient and cats free-spirited, but they do not have the moral capacity to be truly lawful or chaotic.

>>2425727
I seriously have to wonder at the reading comprehension level of the average 4channer.

>>2425697
From the MM v3.5
>>2425654
>A neutral character does what seems to be a good idea. She doesn't feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to good vs. evil, law vs. chaos. Most neutrality is a lack of conviction or bias rather than a commitment to neutrality. Such a character thinks of good as better than evil. After all, she would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones. Still, she's not personally committed to upholding good in any abstract or universal way.

>>2425697
Pic is from the MM v3.5
>>2425654
>A neutral character does what seems to be a good idea. She doesn't feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to good vs. evil, law vs. chaos. Most neutrality is a lack of conviction or bias rather than a commitment to neutrality. Such a character thinks of good as better than evil. After all, she would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones. Still, she's not personally committed to upholding good in any abstract or universal way.

>>2425665
why is alice neutral evil?

>>2425821
"I HATE IOSYS, IOSYS IS BAD ALICE IS EVIL SHE KILLS PEOPLE IT'S CANON I TELL YOU CANON"

I didn't get to Alice on that list. Mokou and Marisa being "good" was enough for me to see that whoever made it didn't know what they were doing.

4e was here. We have an improved alignment system that does away with extraneous ones, since there's not much real difference between Neutral Good and Chaotic Good, and between Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil. We also have no rules that have mechanical bearings depending on alignment, so you can be a Chaotic Evil paladin if you want. A Chaotic Evil paladin who shoots radiant lasers from her sword. In fact, pick a divine class, any divine class. Chances are, it's going to have goddamn lasers, lasers for the good, lasers for the evil.

And we have these neat little power cards and shit.

>>2425862
You also have bear lore. And with our house rules, you can play an evil paladin (but lets not get into house rules). Power cards are pretty nifty though.

>>2425821
Who knows...?

>>2425880

Don't even need house rules, just supplementary ones. Pretty sure variant Paladins of Slaughter, Tyranny and Freedom are in UA.

>I HATE IOSYS, IOSYS IS BAD ALICE IS EVIL SHE KILLS PEOPLE IT'S CANON I TELL YOU CANON

>>2425880

FOOL
ONLY A BEAR
MAY HAVE
BEAR LORE

>>2425622
Robin Hood

>>2425898
Is that so? Huh. Too many splatbooks to keep track of. The only ones we really make use of are The Book of Weeaboo Fightan Magic, Psionics, and Book of Vile Darkness.

>>2425880

If you read it carefully, you'll notice that DC 15 tells you about the habitats of normal bears mostly to serve as a comparison to the living grounds of cave bears, which is certainly a more advanced piece of lore than identifying a run-of-the-mill bear. Unless you seriously believe that cave bears exist in real life, of course.

>>2425990
>Bears generally live in forests and caves.

Wait, so cave bears don't live in caves?

The new edition is a disgrace. The old two axis system is clearly superior.

Chaotic isn't just the ability to do whatever you feel like. It's an active tendency towards chaos. A mindless animal should be thought of as operating under the laws of nature, not the human idea of law. In that context, it is truly neutral. The animal is a product of its environment: it goes with the flow and does whatever it thinks will work. Does a bear fight to escape a cage? A product of the wild would try to break loose, but feed it well enough and the circus bear becomes obedient.

A chaotic person will attack the cage simply because there is a cage. It doesn't matter whether life inside the cage is more comfortable, for freedom itself is more valuable. Chaotics are rebellious, and without external motivation they can be rebels without a cause.It's useful to distinguish the troublemaking aspect of chaotic good from neutral good.

It's even more useful to recognize the difference between lawful evil, who can be trapped into doing good by well-crafted laws, and neutral evil who will just go with what works. For example, neutral evil will only behave as long as enforcement of the law is possible, but lawful evil can be trusted to keep its word even when doing so is somewhat disadvantageous.

>>2425990
They did up to about 10000 years ago.

>>2426061
>The new edition is a disgrace.

Oh boy, here we go.

>>2425629

I can understand that, but really, apathy IS neutral. There are other flavors of neutrality, but Pache certainly fits the neutral mold.

Actually, about the only thing I disagree with in that pic is Reimu. I certainly woudn't put her at Neutral Good.

>>2426147
Yeah, she's more lawful neutral, really. Beat up youkai to maintain the status quo, and otherwise loaf around her shrine.

>>2426061
You're a disgrace.

>A chaotic person will attack the cage simply because there is a cage
Always? Sounds pretty lawful to me. You know, following their code.

>>2426061
>guys, guys, I got alignment all figured out.

Not, it's still shit and it's always been shit. It doesn't make sense as written, and requires so much reworking that it's just not worth the effort - yet it can't be excluded from the game because it's rooted deeply in the game mechanics like a malevolent brain tumor. If there's ONE good thing 4E did, it was getting rid of that piece of shit holy cow mechanic.

Also, sorry for fagging up your board, /jp/.

>>2426203
It's cool bro. We put our shit on your board all the time.

>>2426215
Yeah, about that--FUCKING CUT IT OUT, tossers.

sup /tg/

>>2426224
Not our fault man. Everyone's attracted to the little girls. It's just total coincidence that everything that happens in Touhou can happen in DnD.

Total coincidence.

>>2426203 rooted deeply in the game mechanics

Remove the handful of spells directly affecting alignments and remove alignment class requirements.

Gee, that was hard.

Enjoy your WoW 4efags.

>>2426187
no u

There's a difference between being predictable and following a code. The rebel doesn't have any code or set of rules. His hostility towards limits and restrictions just leads to predictability naturally.

>>2426256
0/10 completely lazy and unoriginal.

>>2426256
Couldn't possibly be from /tg/.

Everyone knows the term to troll by is 4rries.

>>2426315
"fourrries"? That doesn't make any sense at all.

>>2426169
Closer to True Neutral I'd say since she basically only resolves incidents because they either directly inconvenience her (EoSD, PCB) or because people are complaining and she'll look bad if she doesn't do something about it (PoFV), i.e. not because she ought to do it but more because it's the lesser of two evils.

>>2426354

Except she resolves every single incident that occurs. It's not her fault that all of the incidents are large-scale enough as to inconvenience her as well as the entire rest of Gensokyo; you could use the same argument for every other playable character in the series.

>>2426370
Well, I go by the conversations ingame and while it's possible she's just grumbling and would go out and do her job even if it didn't affect her (she's never really been in this situation afaik and you could say she is in a position where any major incident will affect her because she's expected to resolve them and people will complain if she doesn't) it seems that her motivation isn't her duty but rather that dealing with the troubles save her some annoyance compared to letting it go on until someone else deals with it/it plays itself out.

>>2426421

In PCB she's concerned about the consequences of reviving the Saigyou Ayakashi, and actively seeks out Yukari to get the border fixed.

In IN she tries to get Keine to bring back the human village, whereas Yukari doesn't care much.

Most of the MoF unrelated bosses she tries to talk to rather than fighting.

>>2426467

Whoops, I forgot to link to >>2426256

The problem with Touhou aligments is that everybody has their own images of the characters. Some people think Reimu is savior of Gensokyo while others think she's a fucking prick.
Touhou aligments do not work.

Reimu is a good girl.

>>2426515
>Most of the MoF unrelated bosses she tries to talk to rather than fighting.
And in SA and UFO she just picks fights. ZUN's canon is not very reliable.

>>2426531
Considering how they are non-lethal by design, picking fights isn't necessarily particularly evil. I say Reimu's basically a good, if lazy person. So that would be, uh, Neutral Good?

>>2425635
/tg/ might be => that way, but while you're there, can you take the fucking Touhou so we don't have to put up with them anymore?

>>2426589
I support this fine visionary.

>>2426577
Beating people to a pulp does not involve killing them yet is still usually a not-good act.

>>2426606

I don't. I'm a fa/tg/uy, and I like Touhou there. Mostly because, for some bizarre reason, /tg/ seems to always have the best Touhou threads.

>>2426616
/jp/ is . this way. If /tg/ does /jp/ better than /jp/, we may as well plant the flag and unleash Nurse Verity on their waifus.

>>2426614
They all obviously enjoy it.

>>2426616
All /tg/ touhoues are very effective powergamers, and thus provide useful help to those wishing to optimise.

This is a relatively good thing.

Hurr Durr.
Youkai are creatures of nature.
They are True Neutral.

>>2426707
refer to
>>2426467

>>2426333
>trolling
>making sense

What?

Some time ago I saw a awesome alignment thread with gore screaming show.
I wonder where it is...

* DC15: Bears do not attend any continuous services of worship. They are ready to kill at all hours of the week.

* DC20: They mysteriously vanish every winter, perhaps to give reverence to their perverse fertility goddess while gorging on the souls of men lost to famine.

* DC25: Bear society has no visibly ordained clerics.

* DC 35: SHIT NEVERMIND THEY HAVE THEM RUN.

Going to try to explain true neutral as best as i can remember.

True Neutral - To be true neutral is one who wishes to keep perfect balance good and evil, lawful and unlawful are just two sides of the same book and if not kept in balance the book will crumble. True Neutrals have been known to change sides in the middle of a battle simply because the other side began to lose. You could almost say that true neutrals would like for eternal war to continue although this is not true they simply want them to live together perfectly in balance. due to the nature of the opisitions it is required that they too join battle. True Neutrals are known to simply monitor battles and simply even them out when needed.

Well thats my part

Btw head over to the arreat summit and read up on some info on the necros might find that interesting,

>>2427692
>I'll state an incomplete explanation that was already mentioned and corrected.

>>2427692

That is one type of Neutral. The other is the one who, instead of choosing to favor all sides to keep the balance, prefers to simply go along and not favor any, not due to any conviction, but just... because, really.

Most people are this way, and the manuals do mention most people is True Neutral.

rosario + vampire? amirite?

>>2427591

I was just going to quote from this, but you know what, why don't you see for yourself...

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/2821925/

>>2426673
We have three: the original one who does walls of text of optimization and also getting sued by WotC, the one who does power cards, and the one who makes retarded troll threads.

>You see a Bear Youkai. Roll for Bear Lore.

>>2428538
DC15 - Bears look like little girls with paws and round ears.
DC20 - Bears are capable of flight.
DC25 - Bears fight using danmaku.
DC50 - You might have been a bear loli all along.

>>2427979
>and the one who makes retarded troll threads.

Wait, what?

>>2425584
No, her lectures are to improve the recipient's karma, which affects her judgment. Good karma is good.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20090330
>Blazing Starfall
>Ray of the Moon
>Cosmos Call
>Dazzling Starlight
>Moon Cage
>Sun and Stars

Am I the only one who finds these similar to the names of Marisa's spell card names, and a little of Eirin and Kaguya's too? The Cosmic Magic sorcerer is Charisma and STRENGTH based, so they want us to play Cho Marisa...

A gift from /tg/