/jp/ - Otaku Culture

wuts a JP?

Some love it, some hate it.

I read his Remembering the Kana book and hated it so I didn't try to use his method for kanji.

>>2400082

Is your japanese shit right now?

>>2400050
It's worthless in learning the language. Understanding but not being able to express yourself is like learning to write when you're blind or sing when you're deft.

I found it extremely boring to go through that shit because it won't even teach you the readings. Also, I don't think that cramming 2000 standalone kanji does any good. I prefer learning from context, works much better for me.

>>2400090
Yes, because I started learning it two weeks ago. I guess you're trying to insinuate that Heisig is the only good way to learn Japanese, which is laughable.

If you're serious about learning Japanese, do Heisig.

Otherwise you're another faggot who knows 500 kanji,tops.

>>2400145
Knowing thousands of kanji via some fucking obscure stories, yet having no clue how they're actually used in context; that sounds very serious.

Trolls were fed, sorry.

Heisig simply teaches you how to write the kanji. Then when you start learning words and shit you won't have to deal with memorizing the kanji writing and focus on pronunciation. Also it helps with reading because even if you can't pronounce it you know the meaning.

>>2400145
Fuck you. I know over a thousand through plain old studying.

I simply do not understand why or how people would not use heisig. It is the quickest way to get to reading native texts, which is the quickest way to learn how to write and speak Japanese - not that you'd ever really want to.

If you ever want native-level literacy then it really is the only way to go, unless you plan on spending 20 years living in Japan.

>>2400132
you started learning 2 weeks ago. shouldnt you be more open to things? If you find you dont learn anything in a while, sure, drop it, but really, if you're just starting, you need to be more open minded.

Stop learning readings using book 2 and start learning readings as part of sentences.

The kana books are great for learning kana if you don't pay attention to the pneumonics you're supposed to use. The fact that it teaches it out of order and builds upon itself using characters you already know is great. Learned hiragana and katakana one day apiece with only a couple hours of actual learning. The kanji ones... meh, okay I suppose, but I don't do well with pneumonics.

Not really a fan of Heisig but I understand why some people like it.

For me though, I prefer to use my 電子辞書 and tools like Anki and my books. Plus communicating constantly via Twitter, Mixi, GREE, etc.

It worked for me. Got through the first book in about 6 months (had to stop twice for 1-1.5 months due to exam periods). Learned most of grammar from that Let's learn japanese basic video series and Tae Kim's guide.

Currently I'm picking up readings and composite words by reading VNs. I'm playing fully voiced ones, which is a must. Thanks to knowing the kanji I only have to look up words once or twice, I can remember them after that. You don't even have to try that hard to remember their readings, it sticks in your mind if you listen to it enough.

Heisig critics usually say that it's useless how each kanji has some kind of made up meaning associated to it, which may or may not have something to do with the real meaning of the kanji. The thing is, it helps a lot because it helps you identify each kanji. Once you start reading words and sentences you can almost feel the pieces of the puzzle falling into place in your mind. There is a reason behind some of the weirder meanings that Heisig gave some kanji. It helps you to tell similar kanji apart.

Heisig is awesome.

>>2402286
>pneumonics

reactionimage.jpg

>>2400109
>It's worthless in learning the language. Understanding but not being able to express yourself
Now please explain why. Especially for people who aren't going to talk to Japanese people much if at all.
But understanding invariably brings production skills so that's a moot point anyway.

Actually communicating in Japanese is the best way to learn, but for NEETs Heisig is probably best. Don't need to learn pronunciations for VNs でしょう？

>>2402412
That has nothing to do with Heisig.
It's a way to learn Japanese characters, it doesn't teach you the language.

There are a few categories of critics of heisig.
1. Those who don't understand the method
This is most of them. They don't understand that it's just about learning to write/recognize the characters -- it has nothing to do with "Learning Real Japanese (TM)"
2. Those who have tried it, but it didn't work for them.
These people may end up going into category 1. Maybe they're just bad at mnemonics. I don't really have a problem with that reason.
3. People who have no idea what they're talking about.
This is what I assume most people on /jp/ are. Most people here have probably never even tried learning Japanese, but read previous heisig threads and hopped on the "heisig is shit" bandwagon.

I personally like it, although I think it should be put off until the way kanji, readings, compounds, and the general Japanese language work. That way you can actually understand the benefit of "just learning the characters without the readings."

>>2402472
>...I think it should be put off until you understand the way kanji,...

I learned basically all of the kanji with Heisig before learning real gammar. Sure, I knew some basic phrases and picked up a few hundred words from anime and VNs, but once I seriously started learning the language I started with kanji.

I have to admit it took a ton of willpower to do nothing for 3-4 months but grind kanji. It was worth it, it became a very solid foundation and after having learned some grammar I could jump into reading real text. I'm picking up the on/kun readings slowly while reading untranslated VNs.

If you want to do stuff like read VNs, do Heisig 1 and then the first half of Heisig 3 (the latter can be done just by applying the method on new kanji as you encounter them, as many of the new kanji in volume 3 use the same primitives you already know from volume 1). Any other textbook method will have you spending fuckloads of time learning 500-1000 kanji which won't be nearly enough - even the 2000+ in Heisig 1 omit some very common kanji.

Yes, the first book doesn't teach you a word of japanese, and it doesn't even claim to do so. But _after_ you are done with it, learning from context will be much faster than before it. It saves time in the long run.

inb4 AJATT faggotry

Heisig is great. Don't let the naysayers turn you away from it. The large majority of them will say there's no point in learning kanjis without the readings, but the point is moot, because you'll learn the readings while you pick up vocabulary.

It even says on the back of the book that it just brings you to the lvl that the koreans and chinese are at when they start learning japanese.

Being able to recognize the kanji in a split second fucking makes it much easier to learn japanese.

>>2402647
>you'll learn the readings while you pick up vocabulary.
exactly

>>2402707
I wish I were a China/Koreafag.

Anyhow, Amazon order placed.

>>2402710
actually, I think i'm going to expand on this.
Say you do learn some readings, along with meanings. Does this help you any more than just knowing the meaning? Not so much.
Let's say I learn 行, which heisig says is "going" and you will probably learn "こう" and ”い” as its readings.
Say you see the word　行く. Shit son, what is it? こうく? いく?

Take it a step further, 飛行機.
飛ぶ　ー＞　と
行く　ー＞　い
機　　ー＞　はた
といはた？
Fly going mechanism.

It makes sense that it would be "airplane," but simply knowing some readings for the kanji is useless unless you know the word ひこうき.

And when speaking, you speak in vocab, not in kanji.

tl;dr: Vocab is more important than learning the readings.

>>2402718
I agree with your main point about vocabulary being more important (and a better way to learn readings), but in many cases it really isn't hard at all to guess when a word is read using 音読み

>>2402718
>Shit son
I lol'd.

>>2402718
You forgot, ギョウ、アン、ゆく、ゆき and おこなう。

What is the best books to read by downloading online? Ive downloaded the Genki intergrated elementary japanese course course books, and im reading through those to learn basic japanese stuff like repeating vowels, etc, but what are the best books to start out with? I currently also have the Heisig

The onyomi holds no meaning on its own. If you want to master the kanji first by learning onyomi then you're in for some colossal pain in the ass, considering that it has zero logic in it, so can only be done by rote.

On the other hand, if you say fuck the readings and start using the language right away you will learn words. It's a lot more easier to remember a word which has a meaning. And you can easily break that word in half or so to get the onyomi of the characters that make up that word.

In short, my opinion is that you will learn the reading AND words/expressions far faster and easier if you start reading actual text instead of trying to rote the readings first.

You know what's the most ridiculous part? 80% of the onyomi is only used when talking to the emperor's wife's servant on a spring celebration tea party when scratching your ass while falling out from the window. Or some other rare shit that's never used.
If you learn the onyomi by learning words, you will learn the most common usages first without having to pick out the ones from the dictionary that's used more often than every leap year.

For example, a lot of the rarer onyomis are only used for a single composite word.

>>2402758
If you're a complete beginner torrent this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let's_Learn_Japanese
It's a TV show with some accompanying workbooks that will help you learn the basics.
After that, http://www.guidetojapanese.org/

>>2402797
Are you pretty good at japanese after watching that?

>>2402845
Not 2402797, but no. There isn't a single book/website that will teach you enough Japanese to be "pretty good", but some books/methods give you a far better grounding for learning by yourself than others do. Heisig's books would be a good example IMO.

>>2402871
Oh yeah, forgot to add that http://www.guidetojapanese.org/ is indeed a very good resource if you have watched lots of subtitled anime or something

so the best start to learning japanese is http://www.guidetojapanese.org , heisig, and workbooks?

>>2402739
Yeah, it's not hard to guess...but at the same time, you can learn a word with it, associate the 音読み with the kanji, and apply it elsewhere.

>>2402744
Yeah, I know it was an exaggerated example.
Plus, 飛行機 and 行く were the words I used, so I chose those readings.

>>2402901
That website is awesome indeed, but it just states the facts with few examples. I don't know if you can learn the grammar there if you don't know anything as it doesn't do much explanation. It's great as a reference, though.

I like just writing kanji over and over and over and over again in context and burning through shit tons of pencil lead and paper.

>>2402309
>I prefer to use my 電子辞書 and tools like Anki and my books
This is awful right here. It just goes to show you know little to nothing yourself. Relying on them instead of being able to know them yourself won't help you in speaking nor reading like a normal person.

>>2402472
Haha what.
There is NO benefit of learning the characters without the readings what so ever in Japanese.
I went into heisig after 8 years of studying Japanese through classes. The method is awful when you understand Japanese enough to use it as a language.
Heisig is not meant to teach Japanese, nor is it meant to be useful for anything other than a fresh starting foreigner. The follow up books are also vague and even after trying to ease you into the language it puts all the characters you learned to waste.
Understanding what characters mean in English doesn't help you to use Japanese characters in Japanese. The method is intended for writing in scholarly context, but that's worthless in a social context.
Heisig is just ignoring the basic fundamental method of learning. 1, 2, 3. It's not 450 - 230 - 200; 10,15,16.

>>2403391
How the fuck are you supposed to memorize vocab when it's made from unrecognizable squiggles? After Heisig book 1, learning readings in context is easy.

Also
>I went into heisig after 8 years of studying Japanese through classes.
So after 8 YEARS you still didn't know all the general use kanji? Why are we supposed to believe anything you say?

>>2403391
>I went into heisig after 8 years of studying Japanese through classes. The method is awful when you understand Japanese enough to use it as a language.
Wow who would of thought it wasn't made for people who already speak japanese? mind = blown

Read 800 and write 2000? How does that happen?

>>2403391
>I went into heisig after 8 years of studying Japanese through classes.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe the problem is you?

>>2403391
>after 8 years of studying Japanese
Your opinion is rejected and considered void because you suck.

>>2403443
>>2403446
>>2403449
>>2403451
Successful troll is successful

>>2403447
Heisig method is learning writing before reading. You can then learn readings systematically as in Heisig book 2, or in context as in AJATT.

>>2403391
>after 8 years of studying japanese
>went into Heisig
>after 8 years I started using a book designed to help beginners who are just picking up Japanese.
(　´_ゝ`)

>>2400050

Ｈｅｉｓｉｇって言うのは
そんな方法で早く習う感じでそうや。
しかし、それだけで早くへん。
実は色んな方法で同じ時間で使う方が良い。
いつも漢字練習するといいよ。
でも、自分の力で習う。ＡＪＡＴＴの方法で。

>>2403454

>>2403443
>How the fuck are you supposed to memorize vocab when it's made from unrecognizable squiggles?
The same way 5 year old Japanese boys can recognize it.
>So after 8 YEARS you still didn't know all the general use kanji?
You're a fucking moron. I went into Heisig because of the bullshit going on in here for the past 8 months.
If it works, then it works. I've tried Rosetta Stone, Heisig, Genki. They are all worthless.
8 years and I don't know all the general use kanji. Yes. I don't know all of the general use kanji after 8 years of studying. Because I am doing it right. Ground in months of kanji, learned all grammatical patterns up to the high school level. Learned colloquial, different dialects, abbreviations and coherent grammatical usage.
I don't know all the basic kanji? I'm not done yet. Do I ever expect you to know more than me? Never.

Kanji is nothing but a third of the language. It's wonderful if you know all of 1/3rd of the language. I just find it more fitting it know 3/4ths.

>>2403480
>Yes. I don't know all of the general use kanji after 8 years of studying.
>Because I am doing it right.
lolwut?

BTW people

DO NOT BE AFRAID TO MAKE MISTAKES

I see so many people going "omg your japanese sucks" but isn't that the point? You have to be not-afraid of making mistakes. You have to be prepared to fail at everything you say, but not be afraid to say it.

Don't worry about speaking at all if you're new. Just try to understand as much as you read and hear. Especially spoken Japanese.

Watch TV, anime, and youtube and whatever you want to in Japanese. If you have japanese subtitles, or maybe VNs with voicecasting, that'd be EXCELLENT. DO NOT USE ENGLISH SUBTITLES.

Listen to Japanese as much as possible...aim for every hour you are awake. Aim for 18 to 24 hours a day. Play it while you sleep if it'll make you listen to it more when you are awake.

This is the only path. Unlimited blade works.

>>2403480
>is bitter that he uses an outdated method to learn kanji and therefore feels the need to insult others

>>2403480
>Because I am doing it right.
No, you are doing it the hard way and trying to justify the 8 years you wasted.

>>2403493
This isn't a classroom. Mistakes are for a classroom. Unless you have a teacher correcting your mistakes, then you just have a bunch of trolls showing you how wrong you are.

>>2403480
>The same way 5 year old Japanese boys can recognize it.
Trying to mimic what a native does to master his language = instafail for all languages.

>>2403493
Trying to learn Japanese by watching anime is like trying to train for NASCAR by riding down a hill on a tricycle.

>>2403497
>outdated
pffffhahaha. Enjoy your 1/3rd of Japanese. I think I'll go enjoy some Japanese comedy. It's nice being able to laugh at toki no soba because it's funny instead of because I don't understand.

>>2403506
Wow, it's like you don't even understand what this conversation is about.
Immersion. The boy understands because he is surrounded by it every god damn day. He has no "it's now no Japanese time!".

>>2403480
>Because I am doing it right.
So, I learned to read more general use kanjis in less time than you because I'm doing it wrong? lol whatever man. The end result is what matters, not how you get there. People have been having great results with Heisig. You, on the other hand, appear to still struggle after 8 years. Enjoy your drilling.

>>2403499
You don't intend to live in Japan. I'm not trying to impress people at anime central.
Be at where your interests lie.

>>2403508
Because using Heisig means you are not allowed to EVER learn the readings and grammar, amirite?

You spent 8 years learning your kanji. I spent 3 months learning how to write the kanji, started reading VNs and picked up the readings and grammar in another 6-8 months. I attained the same knowledge that you have in far less time. Actually more, since you already said that you don't know all the general use kanji.

>>2403508
>pffffhahaha. Enjoy your 1/3rd of Japanese.
You really are a dumbass. You think people use Heisig and then go "Well that's it, I'm done with Japanese."? People use it to learn kanjis, that's it. They learn vocab and grammar through other means. Dumbass.

>>2403513
>So, I learned to read
I learned how to listen, speak, and read.
How fast can you read? I'm at about 450 characters a minute at a normal pace.
You can't read context. Doing it right you think? You can't even use what you've done. You can go on in the same 8 years and never be anywhere near what I've accomplished. You'll hit your glass wall in about 2 years. At most you'll be able to poorly transcribe manga with furigana using jdict or excite. You won't even be able to see Japanese as a language.

You've been learning how to use it as a parlor trick, not a language.

>>2403528
>pulling bullshit out of my ass because i ran out of arguments

>>2403528
How bout you don't cut off a sentence in the middle to pretend I was saying something else? I said:
>I learned to read more general use kanjis in less time than you because I'm doing it wrong?
Not:
>I learned to read but not to write, speak or listen. I only know kanji meanings and nothing else. Hurr hurr
As you reply implies.
>You can't read context.
>You can't even use what you've done.
>You won't even be able to see Japanese as a language
>You've been learning how to use it as a parlor trick, not a language.
Wow bro, you sure know a lot about me. I didn't remember telling you how I learned Japanese, where I took courses, how long I've studied it, etc.

You're pretty sad.

>>2403516
>You spent 8 years learning your kanji.
>started reading VNs and picked up the readings and grammar in another 6-8 months
Oh lawd, I be learn'n sum english by watch'n dem south park on TVs.
>I attained the same knowledge
Oh god, you're killing me. Honestly. That you believe you can learn all grammatical patterns from a visual novel is killing me.

I should say you must be amazing. Being able to write out 2000 different kanji from memory. OH WAIT I FORGOT CONTEXT. I don't know who you're trying to impress with heisig, but you're saying you've surpassed my 4 Japanese born and raised Japanese teachers. That you've never made a mistake with writing every single basic kanji in standard usage? I can't argue with someone who is never wrong, I can admit that never making a mistake is better than me.
Saying that you're learning faster than myself 8 years ago at 14 in freshmen year high school isn't saying much at all.
8 years learning kanji? It's like you're blinded by that wall to see what problems you have already.
Being able to run faster than someone is great when you're racing, but doesn't work when we're going more than 100 yards. Able to enjoy sprinting out is a beautiful thing. Sadly for you I can run at that same speed doing 6 miles.
If you can't see Japanese more than Kanji, it must be pretty glaringly obvious that you've never spoken a word of it.

>>2403548
>>2403564
Why aren't you two faggots arguing in Japanese?

>>2403543
>can't argue because he has nothing.

>>2403548
>Japanese, where I took courses, how long I've studied it, etc.
You're praising how heisig has helped you through learning all the basics in months.
There is nothing more you need to say to understand what you know about Japanese.

>>2403568
They're both butthurt.

>>2403568
He's the same faggot as last time. He CAN'T is why.
I don't want to bother reading his pathetic attempts at looking like a natural speaker and elementary grammatical structure.
He can't argue in Japanese, I don't want it to look like a teenage beating up an infant. I'm letting him express himself in the only language he can express himself in.

>>2403564
You fail at logic.
'I did A' does not imply that 'I did not do B'.
You're jumping into conclusions and trying to prove me wrong by disproving claims made by you - not me.

I never said that I never did anything else but read VNs. I just said that it helped me learn the yomi and such. And I never said that knowing kanji makes you know everything in Japanese.

However, the ability to identify each kanji after 3 months of Heisig DOES make things a lot faster since you can jump into reading real stuff instead of having to fool around in a classroom for years full of Narutards who are still trying to grasp the workings of "ですか"

>>2403602
>Narutards
>/jp/
Huh.

If you read enough personal development books, you will eventually come across mention of one of the most profoundly meaningful statistics in the history of sports. That statistic being that for many years, Babe Ruth simultaneously held both the career home-run [714?] and strikeout [1330?] records.

Profound statements and intelligent debate from some fine multilingual grammarians in this thread.

>>2403618
Aim to fail noobs

>>2403618
The bottom base of the pizza (called the "crust" in the United States and Canada) may vary widely according to style thin as in hand-tossed pizza or Roman pizza, thick as in pan pizza or Chicago-style pizza. It is traditionally plain, but may also be seasoned with butter, garlic, or herbs, or stuffed with cheese.

>>2403610
I'm talking about the people who attend a Japanese class because it's cool and they like anime and yell 陰日本語の術 during breaks. (Okay, I made up that last bit, but there really are people like that in some classes).

Meh, i've said all i can say.

Do whatever you want to master the language. I'm happy with my approach and rate of progress.

>>2403602
>yomi
I rage in disgust.
>'I did A' does not imply that 'I did not do B'.
HEY GUYS LET'S IGNORE ALL THE POINTS AND PICK AT THINGS UNRELATED THEN IGNORE OUR OWN ARGUMENTS.
Summary time:
You: "I think heisig is good"
Me: "I don't, because I know Japanese already"
You: "I know more basics than you"
Me: "That doesn't matter, because I know more Japanese than you"
You: "Just because I said I know more basics doesn't mean I don't know more Japanese than you too"
Me: "I can do X and X, what can you do?"
You: "OH MY GOD HE'S OFF TOPIC"
Me: "You've got shit I see"
You: "Dumbass, you dumbass"
Me: "Wow, you're saying that old methods are wrong, and even if you do them too heisig is better. Also that you've never ever made a mistake with all 2000 kanji in BOTH writing and comprehension"
You: "YOU FAIL AT LOGIC"

What's with all this elitist bullshit? Oh, that's right, /jp/.

>>Oh lawd, I be learn'n sum english by watch'n dem south park on TVs.

I've learned most of my English from outlandish CRPGs, and before that, shows like South Park (I only speak English as my fourth language). That does *not* mean I don't know how real people speak English. The point in learning Japanese from stuff like anime is to fortify your vocabulary and general understanding of language structures, which are the same in anime as in the language real people speak.

>>2403602
>reading VNs and picked up the readings and grammar in another 6-8 months. I attained the same knowledge that you have in far less time.
>I never said that I never did anything else but read VNs. I just said that it helped me learn the yomi and such.
I like to loophole and escape from being wrong by still being wrong.

>>2403632
>What's with all this elitist bullshit? Oh, that's right, /jp/.
>What's with all this elitist bullshit? Oh, that's right, North America.
Fix'd.

>>2403577
>You're praising how heisig has helped you through learning all the basics in months.
No, I never said that. Heisig helped me learn the meaning of kanjis, that's it. Stop making say things they aren't saying.
>There is nothing more you need to say to understand what you know about Japanese.
Yeah, because liking Heisig automatically means you fail @ japanese, right?
>http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/
Oh wait

hey fags go read some AJATT

>>2403635
I never meant it was wrong. I just meant he's using a book to learn the characters then ignoring everything and doing what he wants to do. It's like learning how to eat cake more efficiently and healthily.

>>2403632
This is some low quality elitism.

>>2403652
>Stop making say things they aren't saying.

I'm done, I can't even take you seriously anymore now.

>94 posts and 1 image reply omitted. Click Reply to view.

>>2400050
Doesn't work

>>2403631
>You: "I think heisig is good"
>Me: "I don't, because I know Japanese already"
Wrong. You said Heisig is fail and people using it are doing it wrong.
>You: "I know more basics than you"
>Me: "That doesn't matter, because I know more Japanese than you"
Wrong. YOU are the one who started saying you knew more than everyone else in this thread (irregardless of the fact that you don't know anyone in this thread)
>You: "Just because I said I know more basics doesn't mean I don't know more Japanese than you too"
>Me: "I can do X and X, what can you do?"
>You: "OH MY GOD HE'S OFF TOPIC"
Wrong. You never asked what anyone could do. You assumed everyone here was an idiot right off the bat.
>Me: "You've got shit I see"
>You: "Dumbass, you dumbass"
Hurr durr
>Me: "Wow, you're saying that old methods are wrong,
Wrong, some people said that it wasn't the most efficient methods
>and even if you do them too heisig is better. Also that you've never ever made a mistake with all 2000 kanji in BOTH writing and comprehension"
Wrong. No one ever said anything about not making mistakes. Mistakes are part of learning, after all (something that has already been said, too)
>You: "YOU FAIL AT LOGIC"
Correct. You do fail at logic.

>>2403474
何じゃそりゃ？　関西弁のつもり？　笑わせるな

>>2403686
>irregardless
Your opinion has now been rendered void

>>2403631
lol nice summary there. How bout you reread the thread and realize that you were the one who came in here with the superiority complex and lashed out at everyone else.

Hey guys i like chocolate chips on my ice cream and FUCK YOU GUYS WHO LIKE NUTS ON ICE CREAM FUCKING HELL YOU CANT HAVE ICE CREAMS WITH NUTS LAWLAWLA

Heisig is only the first step in learning, but it's the best first step. Consider guidetojapanese.org - if you learn everything here you will know enough to switch to learning Japanese in Japanese, which you should aim to do as soon as possible. Would you really complete guidetojapanese.org without knowing the kanji meanings and writing first? Progress would be so slow and frustrating only the strongest willed could manage it. If you've already completed Heisig book 1 (or better yet, Heisig 1 + first half of Heisig 3) then guidetojapanese.org goes very smoothly.

>>2403697
>regardless
happy now?

>>2403686
>irregardless

ಠ__ಠ

>>2403707
No.

>>2403631
>Summary time
See
>>>2403700
>Hey guys i like chocolate chips on my ice cream and FUCK YOU GUYS WHO LIKE NUTS ON ICE CREAM FUCKING HELL YOU CANT HAVE ICE CREAMS WITH NUTS LAWLAWLA
Is a better summary of this thread.

>>2403686
>You said Heisig is fail and people using it are doing it wrong.
Right. Because you haven't been able to prove a single point so far.
>YOU are the one who started saying you knew more than everyone else in this thread (irregardless of the fact that you don't know anyone in this thread)
Right. You've shown nothing to prove that otherwise.
>You never asked what anyone could do. You assumed everyone here was an idiot right off the bat.
Right. I assumed you comprised this thread, hence were an idiot right off the bat.
>Hurr durr
HAY GUYS WATCH ME IGNORE
>>2403543
>>2403573
>>2403521
>Wrong, some people said that it wasn't the most efficient methods
You
>Wrong. No one ever said anything about not making mistakes.
I guess I must have been wrong for assuming someone wouldn't continue to learn more when he wasn't absolutely sure he had it right from memory. I guess I must have been wrong for assuming that when you said you knew all 2,000 that it meant you could actually see and understand them.
>Correct. You do fail at logic.
It's like you're just doing this to troll now.

>>2403691

www
上手じゃないし
まあね、東京弁もいいかな

I speak better Japanese than both of you scrubs and I'm not even going to prove it or tell you whether or not I used Heisig. Bam eat it.

>>2403713
You should use a tripcode so I can more easily ignore you.

Hah, you guys all suck at Japanese.

I'm the best, look:

魚だ。

>>2403724
なんなら「やで」とか「あらへん」とか「ちゅねん」とか最後に付けたら関
西弁になるぞ。　　ネット上関西弁を使っても仕方ないけどね。

>>2403740
It's fish, right?

It's fish.

>>2403691
俺さまの日本語の術はお前の方がたくさん凄いだよ。　出せ！

Not 2403474, just felt like trolling. I know I'm a crappy troll, so go easy on me. Or I'll cry in the corner.

Again.

Honestly in all the time I've been here Stoned Anonymous is probably the only guy whose studying Japanese in a method that "will" work.

You can learn all the tricks you want to in boxing, but just trying to supplement tricks with actual work won't work. You have to put in the time, effort and fail.

>>2403747
It carries out and is fish.

>>2403713
>Prove credentials
>Anonymous image board
You must be new here.

>>2403756
>You are wrong
>Prove it
>NO I AM RIGHT
>*Proof that you are wrong*
>OH MY GOD OFF TOPIC OFF TOPIC

stop bitching and do AJATT if you really care about learning japanese.

>heisig
>good

>>2403762
lolwut? you said you knew more than everyone else here, which is an unfounded statement pulled out of your ass. Quite different from
>*Proof that you are wrong*
It seems the word proof has different meaning for everyone. Saying I have a master's degree in the japanese language =/= proof.

>>2403770

>AJATT
>care about learning Japanese

This thread only gets better from here on in kids.

>>2403770

>AJATT

LOL

>>2403784
BUT IF I DO AJATT IT'S LIKE I'M ALREADY JAPANESE WHICH WAS THE GOAL TO BEGIN WITH

>>2403795
>>2403789
>>2403784
>>2403770

/r/ the /jp/ archive of that anon freaking out about AJATT. It's always a hoot.

This thread is like a compilation of everything you do NOT want to do when studying Japanese. Wow.

>>2403804
troll /jp/? It makes studying more interesting, though.

Classes with lots of white kids is the only way to learn japanese im surprised nobody has said this yet. I tried AJATT for a few months and it failed so bad the only way to learn good japanese is to snort crack and wander into the woods.

This thread:
>AnonA: What does /jp/ think of x?
>AnonB: Some like x, some don't
>AnonC: I like it, it helped me
>AnonD: It's ok, you'll need moar than x, though
>ANON_E: SHIT! IT'S SHIT! I USED x AND IT SUCKED
>AnonA: Well that's your opinion AnonE
>ANON_E: NO! IT'S A FACT. I PROOVED IT. AnonA did x! AnonB is y! AnonC can't do z! AnonD will never be able to do w!
>AnonC: Wow calm down man.
>ANON_E: NO! EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG. I AM NIHONGOXPERT (KNOWS 6000+ KANJIS). ORE WA NIPPON!

AJATT isn't that bad. We just hate it because none of us have the willpower to spend 24 hours of our life on japanese for 2 years.

>>2403781
>Saying I have a master's degree in the japanese language =/= proof.
Hahahahahaha, oh god. It's like trying to prove that communism is wrong to someone whose never been in the system.

>>2403823

Butthurt heisig user. Get on my level nerd

jesus you guys get butthurt over a stupid book about learning kanji?

>>2403824
AJATT is stupid because it's obvious. HEY, IF YOU SPEND 16 HOURS A DAY SPENDING JAPANESE YOU WILL LEARN IT FOUR TIMES AS FAST AS STUDYING FOR 4 HOURS OH GOD I AM SO SMART NEET POWER ROW ROW FIGHT THE NIGGERBLAUGHRGH

この時から日本語に全部言います下さい
その事が良い考えます

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

>>2403842
wut

>>2403842
He said that his penis is 2 inches long and likes to wear pink skirts.

>>2403840
If it was so obvious people would stop wasting their time on classes. Obviously some people need to be spoon-fed

>>2403842
I lol'd.

>>2403842
何語だよ、それ

>>2403842
この時から？　今から？
そして言いじゃなくて書くだろう。　言いたいことわかるだが学力ないな。
　　んで？　　日本語で書いてもなににならないぞ。

>>2403840
if its so obvious why the fuck can't you all speak and write japanese yet. fucking slow pokes.

>>2403872
なんだ。　間違った日本語わからないのか。　　

>>2403855
すいません、新しい学生です
書いてい練習を珍為る

>>2403882
なんでだろう、なんでだろう、なんでなんでだろう。

>>2403842
駄目だ。 ここに、誰も日本語おできないんよ

>>2403899
てつアンドともかお前ぇｗｗｗｗ

ㅋ ㅋ ㅋ ㅋ...

정신 지체...

強姦するwwwwwwwww

>>2403896
だから、そのことをしても意味がないんだ。　そしてネット上で学習をする
やつなんてありえないあるいある意味がない。　　ここには自分が間違っ
たとこを直すやつなんて出てこないはず。

>>2403745

なるほど・・・つまり、ネットで関西弁ＮＧのわけですかい？

>>2403950
スコットランド弁な感じかな
俺はスコットランド人だが、スコットランド弁で書くなんて馬鹿みたいなこ
と

>>2404004
いやいやそう言う意味じゃなくて、関西弁は笑いの言葉だからだ。　　ネタ
を出したらよし。　　関西のなかでも認められるというかもう褒めている
所だ。

>>2404004
You have to rroll your rr's when you write.

No, you two are fucking morons. The cancer of every "how i lern japones lol" thread. alljapaneseallthetime is new age feel-good bullshit to learning a language as scientology is to religion. Sure, some general advice from there is sensible (immerse yourself!) but then there's shit like DON'T LEARN GRAMMAR FROM A TEXTBOOK, IN FACT DONT USE A TEXTBOOK JUST MINE SENTENCES WITH UR SRS XDDDD, and horf dorf dont take jlpt, not even to gauge your competency in japanese its just bad lol xD

Yeah, you might feel like I'm going to be a true Japanese in no time with alljapaneseallthetime.com! The truth is, you're going to realize that you know jack shit when you're asked to an interview in Japanese.

Fuck I hate that site so much

It's almost as bad as people who claim to memorize 100+ kanji with heisig every day. For fuck's sake, don't ever use heisig, biggest waste of my time. Shit's so stupid, he teaches you individual kanji like THIS IS CONCAVE 凹 IT LOOKS LIKE A DITCH THATS HOW U REMEMBER IT XD AND THEN OH HERE'S PIG IRON 銑 (im flipping through it right now what the fuck am i reading) Oh and compounds? Let's take a look at the second book

OH LOOK HES PULLING COMPOUNDS OUT OF HIS DICKHOLE HERPDERP SURE IS STRUCTURED LEARNING AROUND HERE

FUCK

IM SO PISSED

>>2404428

俺はＮＩＰＰＯＮ

Reading this thread makes me want to stop trying to learn Japanese. I don't even know what to do. I'm okay with Heisig but the sheer quantity of the kanji and not knowing anything about readings and such really intimidates me. I tried Genki but it doesn't rub me the right way. I want to die.

>>2404490
Start with Tae Kim

ITT:
80% trolls/faggots who don't know shit
15% failfags that weren't able to learn the language due to laziness, or just because they're dumb as shit
5% the ones that have gone through years of painfull studying w/o fun and think they're methods are THE SHIT

for all the ones who really want to learn japanese...
don't listen to the faggots here...
try some methods... find the one that is best for YOU , ... stop asking 4chan for advice... you won't get an answer and end up frustatred and scared of the language...

links:
http://www.japaneseclass.jp/
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com
http://jisho.org/words?jap=&eng=
http://kanji.dersu.ru/english/test/
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/

now flame on... im not reading it anyway
going to bed, gotta work tomorrow, if you know what that is...

inb4 troll

>>2404679
>and think they're methods are
I stopped reading here.

In all these threads, this elitist "i know more japanese than you" fag shows up. it's always the same guy. His writing style is the same, as is the way in which he argues.

He'll throw bullshit at you, never supporting himself, and he'll claim to have some dumass degree.

I've never seen him write a word of Japanese.

You learn to speak before you learn how to write. Natives do this, obviously. But it takes so long to learn how to read, even at a competent level. What if you knew how to write the ABC's before you even learned how to read. Wouldn't it be helpful?
Then, once you learned the letters C-A-T, you can easily associate them with cats, when put together.
I don't see how elitistfag thinks this is bad.

Especially when he's studied for 8 years.
So I ask you, elitistfag, prove yourself to us. Give us a well formulated post, in Japanese, which lets us actually see, for once, that you actually do know a word of Japanese beyond 俺は日本.

>>2405774
oh damn, sorry, I didn't realize this thread died 3 hours ago.

十年間の反復練習は一年間のＨｅｉｓｉｇの勉強と同じ漢字知識みたいだな
。

このスレを読んで笑ってるよ。時間を潰し続けろ。

I have observed that people who immediately dismiss Heisig without a second thought are invariably those who have studied or are studying Kanji by rote. Does this tell us something? Is it merely them trying to justify the huge amount of time they have spent on each kanji desperately trying to make it stick in their head?

If you're just starting out with Japanese, I suggest you research both alternatives and form an unbiased opinion in your own mind. This is what I did. There's not much point asking people who have done one or the other because they will invariably be biased against the other method.

>>2405774
I'm that fagot elitist.
>>2404037
>>2403935
>>2403909
>>2403881
Are my posts. Do you still have something worth saying?

>>2406164
>なににならない
Your opinion is now void

>>2405887
>みたいだな
drop the だ

>>2405887
いやいや文法が無茶苦茶だがおまえｗｗｗ
知識はいいんだが知恵の方は大切だ。

>>2406198

>>2406181
>>2406192
I see. You've learned nothing past elementary grammar. You're not making it any easier on yourself.

>>2406205

No, you idiot. だ can be dropped from that statement and sounds more natural

>>2405774
みせてやる、あたいのにほんご
あんたばかバカ／\゛ーカ！！
しね

>>2406181
mmm tounge twister. Grammatically sound, but contextually strange.

>>2406211
>No, you idiot. だ can be dropped from that statement and sounds more natural
You're joking right? You say natural, I say what the hell have you been learning?
だな is a speech ism. You're just don't know normal human speaking patterns.

OP here

Just to make things painfully aware for anti heisig people, I should know about 1,500 readings and 6,000 words by the end of the summer.

>>2406205
Are you retarded? なににならない doesn't make sense. That's a retarded mistake to make if you've been studying the language for 8 years.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=ja&q=%22%E3%81%AA%E3%81%AB%E3%81%AB%E3%81%AA%E3%82%89%E3%81%AA%E
3%81%84%22&btnG=Google+%E6%A4%9C%E7%B4%A2&lr=&aq=f&oq=

Did you mean:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=ja&safe=off&q=%22%E4%BD%95%E3%81%AB%E3%82%82%E3%81%AA%E3%82%
89%E3%81%AA%E3%81%84%22&btnG=%E6%A4%9C%E7%B4%A2&lr=

>>2406222

It's not wrong, but みたいな sounds better

>>2406215
いや、この場合は「みせてみ(ろ)」

>>2406164
OK, so you do know some Japanese. Whatever. Besides, it's nothing terribly impressive. Considering the fact that I understood your posts in their entirety, either I'm pretty good at Japanese, or you're not as good as you think you are. btw: I'm 18 months into studying. Years less than you have.

You're still a condescending, patronizing, arrogant dickhole about it.

>>2406224
cool story bro.

>>2406232
>doesn't make sense
I won't argue with you on that, because you don't understand.
Then again, you probably don't know what ナニ　means to begin with.
>>2406238
It doesn't "sound better" because you don't know what it's supposed to sound like. Should I go through the list for you?
だね、だな、だぞ、なの、なのだ、etc. etc.
You're grasping at threads that don't exist. You should really give it up. If you're trying to show that 8 months of heisig has made you an expert on grammar then you've chosen very very poor things to argue about.

>>2406270
ive been studying 4 months, and I also understand most of it

>>2406270
Wow I'm impressed that you can read casual Japanese. Excuse me while I get you a gold medal. Can you now show me how awful I am by responding in Japanese? How about insulting my lack of substance again?

>>2406284
Did you completely half of my post? If it made sense and was used by Japanese people, it would have more than 2 hits on Google. Those 2 hits obviously being by misinformed gaijin like yourself.

I don't know why I bother, it's not like you'll ever admit your mistake.

>>2406270
>>2406292
Ok, what are yours study methods so please y would like to start, no truly!

>>2406306
>completely ignore half of my post*

>>2406306
Google hits. Here you go, if you don't get why I used it then I guess you're about as far as the 8 month guy.
オナニにならない

>>2406284

I never used Heisig, I hate it.

みたいだな and みたいな are the same
You do not need to keep the だ especially if you are having a real conversation

>>2406284

You can omit だ at the end of the sentence, you can also keep it. It's not wrong to omit it. Are you saying that you use だ at the end of every sentence?

>>2406330
強意って解らないのか？　　

>>2406345
強調だろうｗｗｗ

>>2406341
>You can omit だ at the end of the sentence, you can also keep it.
no no no no no listen. Dayo Dazo Dana Dane.
What part of speech do you think this is?
No, don't think. Because this is spoken Japanese. If you don't know how to use spoken Japanese, then stop trying to comment on something you don't understand how to use.

>>2406297
I didn't say you were awful. I'm actually impressed that you're not just a thread-jumping troll.

I just said that you aren't a Japanese god or anything -- you don't have any right to be acting like you are the authority on everything Japanese.

mmm /jp/-drama
anyway what is the best way to learn the language?
at least something that is focused on the reading skills.

>>2406345
強意？「な」か「ぞ」は強意だろう
必ずしも「みたいだな」は正しくないというわけではないけど
「みたいな」もいいだろう

>>2406356

For fuck's sake can you read it all? Did I say you were wrong? There is not ONE way to speak Japanese. There are MULTIPLE WAYS. Some people can use だ some people can omit it. There is no ONE GODLY WAY to speak Japanese.

WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON IN MY /JP/ GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE YOU MOTHER FUCKING CUNTS.

>>2406359
Troll? What, is this how you play your games now? Just go around pretending like you are innocent then jump in calling other people trolls?
Wow, it's like you invented a whole new way to piss people off. Way to go.
>Japanese god
You've not proved anything other than you're great at pretending to be studying Japanese.
Where have been wrong? No, nowhere. You've only been able to point at things you don't understand.
You attack gags then don't even understand what they mean.
You complain in English about Japanese?
論議言いたいなら論調しろ。

>>2406356
I'm not the guy you're arguing with, but let's take a look-see, here:
見たい: い-Adjective.
example:
この映画みたいな
な, clearly added for emphasis

みたい：見えると同じような意味。"Looks like ~" usage. Classified as a な Adjective.
それは犬みたいな動物だ
So, technically, due to it being a な-adjective, you should say
〜みたいだな
if you want to add "な" for emphasis.

However, I have heard many people say 嫌いな, which is also technically a な adjective...So there's something to think about

>>2406397
今授業でディべートするんだから、授業以外に論議したくないもん

>>2406379
それはともかくサイショから「みたいだな」に全く何の間違いもせず。なん
なら文句なんて最初からないんだが、君が言いたいことが訳分からない。

>>2406419
ガキっ臭え

>>2406432
大学生
馬鹿野郎

>>2406440
じゃあ、アニメの真似して「もん」を付ける奴はただの愚かなドジっ子。

>>2406463
絶対違う。
TAの先生が文句を言ったら、「もん」をよく使う。

本当の日本人と喋ろう

>>2406309
4 month guy here
doing english high school level by correspondence course combined with AJATT method. when I started I did know most of the hiragana and some basic stuff which I just picked up from being on the net all the time. so it wasnt from scratch

basically the school gave me a list of all the vocab and grammar I should learn and I thought rather than waste time learning hiragana + katakana readings that they gave i looked them up and stuck it the SRS as kanji. some of it probably even isnt commonly written in kanji but whatever. also I did the AJATT thing where ive changed everything on my computer to japanese language and look up the words I want to know. I have 2 main SRS decks: schoolwords, mywords. about 600 cards in each deck and then a grammar deck with an explanation one side example on the other.
im neet, so each day I spend a lot of time on it. about 3 hour on SRS, 2 hours reading and listening(more if you count japanese music on my ipod, but I dont understand that shit) though I was doing it all day long in the beginning.

I dont fully understand some of his grammar but im getting most of the message. reading in general is quite easy since you go at your own pace.

>>2406611
You need people to talk to.
You won't understand how to use the language unless you talk to ... hell you're neet anyways not like it matters.

>>2406493
それはかわいいのつもりでやっていたんだ。
ときと場所考え。

ｗたしわかわいい