/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Can't believe ZUN is forcing his waifu Mamizou into the story yet again. $100 says Sumireko will appear in the future.

Does that mean she isn't actually a whale?

>>23571336
Anyone have the raws?

>>23571336
best pages

>>23571336
I can’t believe Miyoi is fucking dead. It’s only been 6 chapters damn it.

>>23571368
Mamizou? Surely this mysterious unnamed character can’t be mamizou...

>>23571368
AT least is not as sad as when he tried to shove a low energy loser like Ichirin down everyone's throats.

Unlimited Futatsuiwa Works

>>23571368
you already have a boomer character manga at home

>>23571368
Can't wait for Mamizou to salvage CDS like she did here

I can't believe that Mamizou is so desperate she needs to kidnap people into her sex dungeon.

>>23573721
Go back and take your crossboarder buzzwords with you.

>>23574069
Ha

>>23573571
please don't be mean to ichirin she's doing her best

>>23574088
ok boomer

>>23571368
A shitton of characters that desperately need some development, and he brings back Mamizou.

In other words, classic ZUN.

>>23575789
She might end up appearing for one incident only like in WaHH tho. I can't picture Mamizou being particularly interested in random drunks or a zashiki-warashi cook the way she was interested in the Night Parade scroll.

This chapter was unexpectedly refreshing. Suika and Miyoi's interactions were sweet, we had some exposition and Reimu and Marisa were kept to a minimum. Wonder if that sticks.

>>23577286
I completely forgot the fucking raccoon was in WaHH as well.

>>23571368
there are no words for describing my face when it happened.
"miyoi is really shitty, but at least she's not ma-"

>>23571368
>>23575789
Love how nobody complains when ZUN does the same with Aya.

>>23580438
He doesn't. Also, Aya isn't a terrible character.

>>23580542
>He doesn't.
>Also, Aya isn't a terrible character.
I fucking knew I would get "Well, I like her, that means it's ok :)", but I wasn't expecting delusions as well.

>>23580785
Anon, the whole PoFV/MoF/StB thing was a long time ago, you can breathe out already.

>>23580848
>PoFV/MoF/StB
Right. Those are the only works where Aya appears. Silly me.

>>23580785
You'll just have to make peace with the fact that Aya is much more liked than Mamizou, as every character poll shows.

>>23580848
PoFV-StB-MoF-SWR-SA

>>23580930
Well, people complained back then, just like people are complaining about Mamizou now.

It's amazing that people are butthurt about Tanuki grandma despite the fact she makes the most sense to appear cause she's constantly loitering and drinking around the village.

>>23580882
>Aya is much more liked than Mamizou
There are a bunch of characters who are "much more liked" than both of them and that I'm fond of, but you don't see me screeching about other characters appearing instead of them, nor am I a mentally stunted whiner who equates "Character I dislike for personal reasons" with "BAD character".

I want Mamizou to help me up and hug me too

>>23580961
How about any other village-related character appears then, like Keine or Sekibanki or anyone who didn't already ruin one manga.

>>23581040
Keine is a teacher that probably spends most of her time in school or getting eaten by Mokou and Sekibanki is a loner chuuni.

suika pits

I hate glasses characters a lot, but Mamizou is pretty charming, I don't get why there is much hate against her.

>>23575789
Well if this means that Mamizou will get more lewds then I'm ok with it

>>23580438
aya is a good and useful character because, as a news reporter, she's a convenient in-universe narrator who always has a reason to be present at any event.
there's absolutely no reason for mamizou to show up as frequently as she does.

>>23582142
>she's a convenient in-universe narrator who always has a reason to be present at any event.
ZUN also introduced Hatate, but he still puts Aya everywhere.
>there's absolutely no reason for mamizou to show up as frequently as she does.
She meddles in the affairs of the human village. FS was a story that heavily featured the human village and the power struggles surrounding it. It's not rocket science.
Lotus Eaters seems to shape up as a similar story.

I rather have mamizou again than the Kappas shilled into the story for the Nth time. Although having underrated characters have more screentime would be appreciated.

>>23582353
That’s because no one prefers Hatate over Aya

>>23580438
Aya isn’t shit, that’s why.

>>23583003
>>23583140
Ok, you're just brain-dead, not that I was expecting much anyway.

>>23583165
No u.

>>23582353
hatate never goes outside to report you retard. she only did it in double spoiler while imitating aya. she's a shut-in. she can't fill the same role.
>She meddles in the affairs of the human village.
what i'm saying is she has no ACTUAL REASON to be fucking around there that we know of at this point.

Lets be real here. Hatate’s threads are ruined now.
I liked her a bit, but it all went downhill after that one anon wrote a little story around her in scenario.
The threads were never the same after that. From protect to disgusting ntr.

>>23583197
>she can't fill the same role.
Yeah, she has a totally different role, really. ZUN also just can't write something of substance for her, but it's ok, "character X reappearing is bad because she steals the show from characters who could benefit from some development" suddenly doesn't apply anymore.
>she has no ACTUAL REASON to be fucking around there that we know of at this point.
>that we know of at this point.
That's a crucial point though. Only now the plot is moving forward, after 5 chapters of "the same scene, but slightly different".

This chapter didn't answer anything. Is it Suika's sake that makes people hallucinate?
Also I cannot buy that Suika has never shrunken down and bathed in her bottle.

>>23581001
you know that she probably ate him, right?

>>23584914
I doubt she would do this inside the human village, she wouldn't want to incur the wrath of literally everyone but Seija in Gensokyo.

>>23583234
Blame the slavcuck.

>>23580438
Aya is a main character now. That's like complaining Marisa's appearance in PCB after EoSD.

New Chireikiden too, with background art
https://comic-walker.com/viewer/?tw=2&dlcl=ja&cid=KDCW_AM21201276010007_68

>>23585714
It's PCB now so I guess IN is next arc.

>>23585714
Yukari please, act your age.

>>23581804
Same reason people hate on Zounose, they just like being contrarians.

>>23591644
Weak bait.

>>23591697
You literally can't name any logical reason why you hate both

>>23585675
>Aya is a main character now.
So if ZUN tomorrow says "Mamizou is a main character now", you'll stop complaining. Wow.

>>23585714
Wait a minute
東方智霊奇伝 (Touhou Chireikiden)
霊奇伝 (Reikiden)
霊異伝 (Reiiden, Japanese part of HRtP's title)
奇 and 異 both mean "strange" or "ghostly"
Mima literally confirmed

>>23593489
Mima confirmed back!!

When is Reimu going to fucking KILL this shitty raccoon shit?
FUCK I WANNA SEE HER FUCKING DEAD RIGHT NOW!
FUCK YOU /JP/ THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT

>>23596380
Never because she's a cute granny

>>23571336
Is her game ever coming out?

>>23609138
Delayed

>>23609138
It's not her game.

>>23582142
A tanuki boss with rich youkai knowledge, but unlike Yukari actually loiter around in human village and directly involved in its affairs, all because she's the most sociable youkai on top of her perfect disguise.
I think it's fair for her to appear either as source of conflict or providing info if something happened in human village now.

>>23613564
>perfect disguise
Most obvious disguise in history after Kasen.

>>23614580
It's not obvious if you don't know her true form, which also goes for most of the villagers.

>>23614580
none of the youkai that visit the village have good disguises, the humans (like Kosuzu) are just retarded.

Aya is barely disguised, Sekibanki walks around in her chuuni cloak, and Yuuka just walks in like normal (though she isnt trying to hide). Half of them show up to festivals and the ghost story telling in FS. But you're right, Kasen walking around in her youkai sage tabard with little remilia hats to hide her horns is pretty bad. On par with Suika just wearing glasses.

>>23617647
Or maybe they just don't give a fuck, duh.

>>23617647
Why would they be suspicious of them in the first place? They all look pretty human.
We don't know the public opinion of dress code and fashion in human village. They might think Banki's chunni cloak is completely normal.

>>23617647
Yuuka has no discernible youkai feature in her appearance.

>>23609221
Maybe you're thinking of something else
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1122050/Gensokyo_Night_Festival/

>>23609138
The dev had a complete hardware failure and with covid he's had to cancel the planned update. He is making progress, just not the progress he wanted.

As a reminder, it's mainly a solo dev.

>>23618651
It's never going to come out is it?

>>23619990
If he wasn't actually updating it and posting progress I'd think so.

But, he's been working on in for like 6 years. He's going to see it through to the end.

>>23620495
how the hell did a hardware failure even happened? did he not have backups?

>>23620555
He did, it seems. Perhaps not the most recent at the time, don't take that as fact it's just my assumption. He clearly didn't lose everything, but he still needed a new machine I think.

>>23617796
Kosuzu was horrified when Mamizou and Aya confessed, they clearly would care to know if they were walking among youkai. The youkai don't really care though.

>>23618158
and yet the villagers are terrified of her even though she just comes to buy flowers

my whole point was simply agreement that none of the youkai have really good disguises

>>23621911
>Kosuzu was horrified when Mamizou and Aya confessed, they clearly would care to know if they were walking among youkai
Yeah, one of the regulars you know suddenly starts threatening you when you're just teenage girl completely alone in the shop. Who would have thought she will shitting bricks. Meanwhile you have the whole HM where people are seen with youkai all the time. Suika playing with kids in WaHH. Ran buying fried tofu. Kokoru prefering her dances during festivals et cetera. But yeah they are clearly too dumb and blind to notice.

>>23623941
Then the original point that Mamizou and the youkai have shitty disguises is accurate, which was the entire point i agreed with. Stop being dense and ignoring the point to nitpick irrelevant things for no reason.

>>23624250
>and the youkai have shitty disguises is accurate
But those youkai have no disguise. Also
>>23614904

>>23623941
It is known that youkai wander through the village. They may not be a majority there but they're there. Those who wear disguises simply have reasons to do so. Most don't put on disguises and just go in.

>>23617796
if the villagers don't care about youkai then FS was pointless. thats fine, it was a shitty manga anyway

>>23624419
not really, pretty sure that FS point was this

>>23624419
Go back to >>>/v/

>>23624419

>>23624408
Mamizou probably wear disguise especially to socialize and blend in, while other youkai that visit the village either unable to properly socialize with humans or prohibited to do so.

>>23624419
This is true, FS had good parts but overall it was the worst Touhou manga to date.

>>23593489
Oh fuck, so that's why my back's been hurting so much

>>23626370
It isn't prohibited or anything and mostly, humans don't mind. Ran shops there all the time and she's a bloody nine-tailed fox

>>23627081
Overall? The fuck? No, that's still SSiB.

Faggots still butthurt suzu didn't get axed, huh.

>>23628654
SSiB is the best

>>23629263
lol no

>>23628654
Don’t like SSiB, but it’s still better.

>>23629172
If you take a step back you'll realize she narrowly escaped death and if Yukari didn't butt in the crimson slasher would've claimed another victim. The ending was fine, because more important than how Kosuzu ended up is the revealing of how things are run in Gensokyo.

>>23629263
This.
>>23628654
Let me guess "something something moonbitches are Mary Sues", right?

>>23630728
No, something something the manga is a poorly paced badly choreographed mess with an odd tone unbefitting of the rest of the series.

>>23630021
It isn't, at all. Don't be stupid and think a poor ending alone ruins what was ultimately an episodic series with mostly great episodes. Nobody really ragged on FS until its lackluster ending.

Fortune Teller should have just possessed possessed Kosuzu and took her to the outside world and married her.

>>23571431
Nobody on /jp/ ever seems to have the chapter raws. I bet there are more people who know japanese in the vtuber threads.

>>23631093
>with an odd tone unbefitting of the rest of the series
But that's FS.

>>23631093
To be fair, first half of FS was pretty good.

>>23628654
Worst is easily Detective Satori. Not only does it read like random doujinshi made years ago but no other Touhou manga just has the artist staight up copy and paste stuff on pages in the same chapter or using stamps instead of drawing stuff himself. Only the first fairy manga feels this lazy and even that was at least drawn by hand.

>>23632222
Not a fair comparison since CDS is still just taking off. I doubt the art will significantly improve, but the story can only get better now that we are done with SDM.

>>23632222
>it read like random doujinshi made years ago
You guys keep saying that but I have yet to read at least one doujin similar to CDS.

>>23632163
The dark tone of FS is consistent with the usual background "people die here and it's normal" aesthetic of Touhou. The tone of SSiB is mostly just awkward. It felt like an amateur serious story outside of the silly moments (which are the only honestly good things about SSiB). Unsurprising as it was indeed ZUN's first story in manga form.

>>23632403
Note* Three Fairies wasn't a story, so though it started sooner I'm not counting it

>>23632403
The dark tone of FS isn't consistent with anything, considering that in other works those same villagers hang out with youkai without a care in the world.

>>23632413
>in other works
In FS too.

>>23632413
That's literally false. You've got PMiSS with various accounts of how dangerous youkai are, BAiJR outlining some killers, and of course DiPP which has Reimu fly past the scene of a bunch of dead outsiders, killed by a youkai, and she's like "whatever" (something Marisa does much later in FS when a boy is crying about seeing a dead body)

>>23632430
>and of course DiPP
Yeah yeah, bring up PC-98 next.

>>23632444

>>23632462

>>23632462
So? The concept of human village didn't even exist back then. EoSD is barely more relevant to the current canon than PC-98.

Low effort bait.

>>23632478
Low effort ripoff characters.

>>23632481
Only some names and one design were, but if you just hate Touhou that's cool, I literally don't care

>>23632430
>DiPP which has Reimu
Who started actually started this shit? I want names.

>>23632523
What?

In fairness it doesn't say it's Reimu, only says that it's Gensokyo and the shrine maiden of paradise, which happens to be Reimu's title. It could be a different shrine maiden altogether, though the point of the story is that it's detached and names literally *no* characters.

>>23632430
>You've got PMiSS with various accounts of how dangerous youkai are
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Monologue

>The days where humans live in terror of youkai or desperately exterminate them have passed, and the world has become a place where youkai come to the human village to play and humans are invited into the houses of devils.
>Nowadays, youkai almost never eat humans.
>In fact, a number of the youkai threat levels have been inflated somewhat in this volume.
>This probably isn't cause for too much concern, as humans are almost never kidnapped and eaten by youkai in today's Gensokyo.
>Youkai extermination continues in name only, and abductions are only carried out for show.

>>23632556
Why are you quoting the monologue and not the several examples of people fearing youkai and Akyuu generally downplaying it

They don't live "in terror" of youkai, but they fear them. They literally have to, or Gensokyo will entirely collapse. This is the same book that gives each character a danger level. In the first works into the Windows era, almost everything emphasized how nowadays things were better, not that they were absolutely the best, in Gensokyo. Violence is lower due to spell card rules, youkai are less aggressive due to the villagers being now a protected people, and the mainly the only people who die and are killed (though they do die a lot) are outsiders. All of this is in PMiSS. PMiSS even notes that fairies sometimes accidentally kill humans by disorienting them and leading them to their deaths.

>>23632430
>PMiSS with various accounts of how dangerous youkai
Ah yes the infamous dancer level chart where most things are exaggerated or flat out biased. Totally not paid by J. Jonah Yakumo.

>>23632581
There are villager accounts as well, varying from people absolutely terrified just because a youkai showed up before them, to people who are almost too comfortable and don't have a proper sense of danger.

The point is that there is a perceived danger at all. Ignoring it doesn't make your argument that FS follows through on this correct. Just look at the SDM entries or something, where a guy is taken in and helped at the mansion and still finds it too scary so he just leaves.

>>23632574
>This is the same book that gives each character a danger level.
And she's admitting there that she falsified them.

>>23632478
He probably meant anything that happened during EoSD. Of course everything in it would become relevant later as it's in the current universe.

>>23632603
The point is that there is a danger at all. This is not an argument.

Nowhere does it say that it's perfectly safe and you'll be fine.

>>23632600
>where a guy is taken in and helped at the mansion
The mansion that is on a lake full of youkai and fairies well away from the town.

>>23632628

>>23632614
Gensokyo is dangerous in the way crossing a street is dangerous.

>>23632638
If the street wants to grab and eat you arbitrarily.

It's not dangerous for villagers, much, but the point of FS wasn't even danger it was the perception of such, and the separation of humans and youkai, which has been a thing since the windows era even began. Why the fuck do I have to say this? Brain damage or bait, which is it?

>>23632600
>There are villager accounts as well, varying from people absolutely terrified just because a youkai showed up before them
And I would mostly take those with grain of salt when you have several "pranking" fairies or random youkai spooking people just ebin lulz.

>>23632660
*just for

>>23632636
That says (in Japanese) they're worried whether the youkai are planning something, not that they're scared of youkai.

>>23632671
hurrr semantics durrrrr

Worry isn't a negative emotion, and I looooove ignoring how they're afraid of youkai in general.

Why are argumentative /v/tards all over /jp/ today anyway?

youkai are like mythological youkai

if you meet one, you do the thing, and then they don't murder you
but you have to remember to do the thing
(spoilers: you don't have to remember to do the thing, but the powers that be want you to believe that you have to do the thing)

>>23632652
"The separation of humans and youkai" where youkai set up stalls to sell stuff to villagers and build and operate things like a ropeway, a circus and a planetarium for them.

>>23632660
What grain is there to take? They spooked people back in PMiSS and they spook people up in FS. The level of fear they employ is about the same, and the only radical thing that even happens in FS is a possession, which was noted for being a flagrant deviation of the norm. Otherwise all the youkai do in FS is walk around, whisper at, or threaten villagers. It terrifies Kosuzu, who is your mostly typical villager, and the event with possession scared everyone out of the Suzunaan bookstore, but the literal point of the series is just keeping up the same tension that had been laid as early as the windows era even began: a tension between youkai and humans largely ignored in favor of cuteness and disregard; but still people are dying.

>>23632695
Are you retarded or do you not get that there's a balance at play even when the series beats you over the fucking head with it.

>>23632705
A bloo bloo I'm a poor human girl so afraid that a person visiting my bookshop might be a *gasp* youkai in disguise! I don't care about using a facility literally and openly staffed by youkai though.

>>23632722
Yes, and?

Both Aya and Mamizou physically and mentally intimidate/threaten Kosuzu, and the fact that both were specifically trying to get close to her via a lie tells her that they're deceptive and possibly dangerous.

When Kosuzu meets and understands Kokoro, after initially being afraid of her due to misinformation, she's amused by her because she's honestly just kind and silly. As it turns out, when people aren't threatening you you become complacent with them or even end up liking them. Most of the fear people have of youkai in Gensokyo again as early as you can even point out, seems based on remembering that they're dangerous, having them still actually kidnap, attack, threaten, spook, and in rare cases kill people (even if the first four are just for show, you can still get hurt and it's still sudden), and furthermore you live in a world where these creatures still eat humans on the regular, just not humans who were born in or live in the Village (again: this is an early detail of canon). The tension is thus making friends with literal murderers and hoping that they don't become the monsters they literally are on your ass. If they're polite, you may only be afraid of their creepy smile. If they're openly aggressive, like Mamizou and Aya were, you would be justified in freaking out.

>>23632691
Even /jp/ has some opinions that need to be straighted out, especially current /jp/.
At least someone is actually giving arguments.

>>23632705
>Otherwise all the youkai do in FS is walk around, whisper at, or threaten villagers
Yeah.
>It terrifies Kosuzu, who is your mostly typical villager
Suzu is literally targeted by youkai giga Stacy's and is constantly surrounded by youkai stuff from her shop. In absolutely no way she's your typical villager.

>>23632798
Nah. Kosuzu is LARGELY unaware of the actual youkai around her, discounting randoms in the village who do not come to see her directly. All of them interact with her at least initially in secret, and her only exposure to real ones is during festivals under the enforcement of literally the law of the land, Hakurei Reimu (who she cites as the person she expects to come in and save her if anything bad ever happens) and a fox that Akyuu insists she not interact with, but she does due to perceiving it as harmless.

It's shown that when she witnesses supernatural events firsthand, she flips out. It's also shown that her perceived notion that youkai "aren't all that bad" is a dangerous line of thinking, spurred on by the peace that the village/Gensokyo enjoys. She is the average villager. Most of these people DO freak out or grow suspicious or fearful of youkai close to them, but they also constantly venture beyond the village limits, do business with youkai, and even party with them. They're all curious and peaceful and slightly wary, which is Kosuzu to a T.

>>23632774
I don't know man, going to an astronomy lecture organized by a group of murderous man-eating monsters wouldn't sound like a good idea to me at all, not matter how polite they were. Yet villagers do just that without a care in the world.

What I'm saying is that that particular aspect of FS is trash. It could have literally the same story about Kosuzu screwing around with dangrous books, releasing youkai and getting possissed and whatnot, but without trying to pretend that she's super terrified of those mysterious monstrous creatures who sold her cotton candy at the last festival.

>>23632846
>I don't know man, going to an astronomy lecture organized by a group of murderous man-eating monsters wouldn't sound like a good idea to me at all, not matter how polite they were. Yet villagers do just that without a care in the world.
Kappa tell humans that they're there friends and in the last like 200 years they haven't attacked humans and have instead slowly opened more up to the,. under the banner of friendship, for business transactions and entertainment. If you know that these people are very probably not going to hurt you, and that they haven't hurt people like you in near 200 years, but you do know that people from another world get their anuses ravaged by these beings if they wander too close to the village, you tell me what your course of action is when Kappa open a water park.

>What I'm saying is that that particular aspect of FS is trash.
Then just call Touhou trash! This is innate to the setting! If you don't like it, then you don't like "Grimsokyo" which, like it or not, IS canon. Which is my point. I was saying that FS is consistent with this mood that has always been there. You can not like it, but that's beside the point, I haven't been arguing that it's done well, just that it's done and consistent.

I personally think it's done well because I see it as making sense, especially when paired with works like PMiSS which go to show the typical quality of villagers, which is too risk-averse and yet also very touchy and easily frightened. Makes enough sense to me when dealing with supernatural killers who formally decided to not kill you and instead keep you safe 150 years ago. You can still chill with them, but you know what they are, and that weird balance is like the spine of the Touhou Project.

>>23632846
also Kosuzu clearly separates youkai from youma books because youma books make her special, as the only human alive who can read them

The bad part of FS is that she suffers no real consequences for straying so close to monsters despite us seeing what HAPPENS when you stray too close to monsters in that very work (you are literally killed)

>>23632836
>It's also shown that her perceived notion that youkai "aren't all that bad" is a dangerous line of thinking
Suzu is naive sure but can you really blame her when you have Kappas building seal circus just for dem fat profit and other stuff. Capitalism ho!

>>23632911
Touhou doesn't function off consequences for your actions, it functions off people believing that there will be consequences for their actions.

Kosuzu has to be initiated into the circle of "haha this whole thing is just an elaborate song and dance" (for villagers, anyway) after learning too much.

>>23632922
No, and that's the point.

The only way Kosuzu is "special" is that her unique ability allows her to venture deeper into the world of youkai than other people, but she only awakened to it recently at the time of FS, and had spent most of her life as a normie.

>>23632932
The problem is that while yes, Touhou largely doesn't do that outside of backstories, FS did introduce the idea of a villager toying with darkness without knowing what to be ready for (Marisa is an example of how to dive in "correctly"), showed what would happen, but then at the end didn't deliver anything similar. It doesn't ruin the work, since the atmosphere, plots, and so on were still all entertaining, but it does damage the theme and kind of drops the narrative setup. I've said before I wouldn't have liked her to die, but I did want her to suffer SOMETHING. Even the loss of sight in one eye would do. Anything more than nothing.

This thread went from arguing that youkai don't need disguises because thd villagers don't care to arguing that the villagers are terrified of youkai.

>>23629172
Actually I think the ending of FS was fine, it was just a boring story. In fact I hate the people who think Kosuzu should have died as well and I think FT sympathizers are retarded and it actually ruined any discussion of that manga.

>>23632222
Not very fair considering the start of WaHH and Fairies was just as poor.

>>23632896
>Then just call Touhou trash! This is innate to the setting!
This is a plot hole and it's an inconsistency in the setting. Not the only one, mind, you, but one of the most obvious. You can have villagers acting more or less like real-life Edo era Japanese peasants would when they suspected youkai were around. Or you can have them go to parties and festivals with youkai. It's either or. You cannot have youkai be perceived as mysterious, threatening semi-legendary monsters and at the same time do all those ridiculous things. Well I mean you can, and that's when ZUN tried to do with FS and in a few other places, but it's not logically consistent. And I don't like it when when canon works aggravate those logical inconsistencies. This messes up suspension of disbelief.

It's like when Mamizou shows up, and Kosuzu is just like "Oh, I've never seen her around before, she seems cool". Human Village is tiny. It's big for a village, closer to a small town, but it's still a kind of place where pretty much everyone would know everyone, at least by sight. Mamizou appears, starts walking around and no one comments, no one asks if she's from the outside world or something, they just like "Oh, she probably always lived in the village and we just didn't notice her all those decades".

>>23632911
No one "suffers" any "consequences" in Touhou, period. At least no one female.

>>23632988
Byakuren did. Maybe the worst, and she deserved it.

Hence I said "outside of backstories". Oh, and the Yorigami Twins as well. They were forced into rehabilitation and also forced to resolve the remainder of the incident.

>>23632970
>I hate the people who think Kosuzu should have died as well
Literally no one thinks that.

>>23633003
>Hence I said "outside of backstories"
Yeah, that doesn't count.
>Oh, and the Yorigami Twins as well.
No they didn't.

>>23633012
Play AoCF you fucking faggot

>>23633015
Having to sweep the shrine grounds for a few days isn't exactly what we're talking about here, and you know it.

>>23632911
FT wasn't just killed for being a jinyou, he was killed primarily because he flaunted the way he became a youkai, put Kosuzu in danger, and gave Reimu a dumb supervillain monologue instead of just trying to slip away in peace. It's still an unfitting chapter in the context of Touhou but he deserved what he got.

>>23633021
Having to endure Byakuren's bullshit and also literally save the earth from a crazed dream celestial and a fish are indeed consequences, whether you agree with the severity or not, you fucking moron

>>23633022
He only died for turning. Reimu killed that horse merchant or whatever as well, who had become a youkai.

>>23632974
I think I explained why the setting works and is not a plot hole or inconsistency, and I think it's valid to just not like it. The fact that "it's both and it's kind of fucked up" is core to Touhou, and I've noticed many people either ignore it or call it bad writing.

However in reality, humans are complacent. Not every German in the third reich was some hideously evil person, but under any "working" system, humans are pretty much fine with whatever. Arguably modern society as well, which if you want to be faggy operates on the blood of countless others you simply don't give a shit about. Maybe you don't directly interact with the people who exploit those others but honestly if you did, would you easily judge them? What if they were friendly and always helped you out?

The point is that it's complicated.

could have saved us all some time if you'd just said "lasting consequences" instead

>>23632974
Honestly Touhou start making much more sense when you realize the girls are not youkai but a magical chuuni girls LARPing as youkai.

>>23633029
Well then there were "consequences" for Kosuzu as well, so I don't see what you're complaining about.

>>23633033
>who had become a youkai
Pretty sure the dude was already gone and nothing could be done.

>>23633054
He wasn't human anymore and that was the core issue.

He was a villager who had become a youkai; this is forbidden. You don't see Reimu killing any youkai that is born and trust: there are plenty that are just as mindless and bloodthirsty out there.

>>23633049
No there weren't, she suffered nothing. She was possessed and so her actions weren't her own, Reimu didn't punish her, Yukari didn't punish her

She just got things she wanted and no harm, no nothing. She literally had no consequences. And again, even if the franchise as a whole does NOT operate on consequences, my point is that that series itself set UP consequences, not only by showing them but having Akyuu directly warn the protagonist that bad shit could happen.

And nothing happened. This is a bad thing to do. Even in Touhou, there's still generally narrative satisfaction and a sense of fulfillment in the end, even if the villain of the game isn't properly punished. Honestly the only Touhou story aside from FS that has a truly "whatever" ending I can name is ISC, which ends in the middle of things. Yes, even PMiSS has a better ending, even if I think it's worse overall.

>>23633038
The inconsistency here is not the "evilness" factor, but rather the "mysterious semi-legendary threat" factor. I agree that villagers may still be aware that youkai who are entertaining them are monsters and just be complacent. But there is no way they would react to those youkai the way they react in FS. Nazis and such may be evil and even scary in some context, but they're not mysteriously, ominously scary. They are just a part of life. And in some works youkai are that. And in other works villagers instead go "Oh, no, what if a youkai is involved?! *trembles*" That doesn't work.

>>23633086
I don't know, I always felt that the big bad event for Kosuzu was the possession itself. Sure, she bounced back from that like nothing happened, but so does everyone else in Touhou ever.

Also, Yorigamis also suffered nothing and there were no lasting consequences for them. Just like for everyone else.

>>23633098
I think it's much simpler than that.

If youkai are openly in your face and telling you what's up, humans trust them generally (though they may be unsettled by them)
If youkai are plotting? Fuck that. That introduces what's fundamentally terrifying about them: the unknown. Once you're not sure if a youkai is doing something, or why a youkai is doing something, there are various ways it can turn out and honestly few of them are good. At best you get pranked or spooked, at worst you're in pieces or have been skinned alive with your flesh used as a body suit as a hilarious joke.

>>23633114
The question wasn't lasting consequences and honestly, things don't NEED "lasting" consequences, that's retarded. When you do something wrong, you should serve an appropriate punishment and ideally reform. That is called a consequence. It is the negative result of your actions. It doesn't have to be a permanent stain on your identity or person, you just need to do something or have something done to you in equivalence to the damage you caused, and ideally reflect on your actions.

The Yorigami's mostly do this. They're given menial labor and reform training, and are forced to contend with legitimately dangerous entities that are not afraid to kill, and not bound by the nonlethality rule either since they're not exactly "citizens of Gensokyo". Joon halfway reforms as a result as well, though Shion does not.

>>23633116
>at worst you're in pieces or have been skinned alive with your flesh used as a body suit as a hilarious joke.

laughing_seija.png

>>23633116
That's the point though, close personal contact with al lthose youkai would destroy the "unknown" factor. Nue gets teased by people who yell "Nyeh-nyeh, outcast" at her.

>>23633138
To be fair, almost all characters see what kind of clutz Suzu is and the whole manga is full of "Oh no, we must oversee and protect her because something bad will surely happen to her!" moments. I'm not defending the ending but honestly I wasn't surprised with the outcome either.

>>23633230
Indeed which is why mostly, people interacting are calm with youkai, and why Kosuzu's biggest freakouts revolved around "I don't get what's happening" and "Oh SHIT! You were a youkai!? Why!?" Even the previously cited SDM rescued villager was not scared by Remilia; he found her very amiable. What bothered him was the unknown: he heard lots of noise at night, found the lack of ordinary food suspicious, and thus got the hell out of dodge.

>>23633138
>When you do something wrong, you should serve an appropriate punishment and ideally reform.
I'm glad that Touhou does not subscribe to this sort of weird retributive morality. It's as if some people can't live without turning every story into a sermon.

>Joon halfway reforms as a result as well, though Shion does not.
Shion was a better person to begin with, so that's natural.

If anything, the real consequence here is that they find new friends and live happier lives, just like Kosuzu. Just like most other Touhou characters, actually. Which is a way better outcome than some sort of contrived "punishment" for doing something "wrong".

>>23633275
>Shion was a better person to begin with, so that's natural.
She's literally as bad if not worse than Joon and continues to be a problem after the game ends. They're the worst sisterS, not bad sister and good sister. They're both assholes and Shion continues to be more of an asshole.

She has reasons, arguably, to be a cunt, but that does not stop her from BEING a cunt.

Also seriously don't ignore the point, I obviously don't generally give a shit about consequence otherwise I wouldn't like the regularly status quo-retaining Touhou series.

>even if the franchise as a whole does NOT operate on consequences, my point is that that series itself set UP consequences, not only by showing them but having Akyuu directly warn the protagonist that bad shit could happen.
>
>And nothing happened. This is a bad thing to do. Even in Touhou, there's still generally narrative satisfaction and a sense of fulfillment in the end, even if the villain of the game isn't properly punished.

I always thought that Kosuzu was somehow punished offscreen. True it's just my headcanon but the last chapter was pretty rushed.

>>23633313
>She's literally as bad if not worse than Joon
Well, argue that with ZUN, not me.

And I didn't really ignore the point. When I read FS, it didn't strike me as strange, because I assumed the event all those things were leading up to was Kosuzu's possession. It was a bad event, and it happened. That's it, really. She was then successfully saved, so cheers?

My actual issue with the ending of FS is that I wanted her possession/general youma book shenanigans to DO MORE. Like, permanently give Kosuzu new powers. Turn her into a half- or full on youkai. Something like that. Now that would have been fun.

>>23633402
Argue with ZUN? He didn't say she was a better person in your screenshot, just that you'd be better off with her.

I really question the "has no intent on making you unhappy on purpose" when she's a thug and a thief, however, who terrorized Gensokyo with Tenshi. She demonstrably has no problems with crime, at the very least, even if perhaps she has no "ill will"/

We seem to agree that the ending needed to be not what it was, so that's something.

>>23633402
>Like, permanently give Kosuzu new powers. Turn her into a half- or full on youkai. Something like that. Now that would have been fun
That's Bleach though. Not Touhou.

>>23633436
>I really question the "has no intent on making you unhappy on purpose" when she's a thug and a thief, however, who terrorized Gensokyo with Tenshi.
Well, sounds like you may be misinterpreting those events, since ZUN is clearly telling you things from his god-mode perspective, right?

>>23633452
I agree that those things don't really happen "on-screen" in Touhou, however they happen in backstories al lthe time.

Well, I didn't say it was a realistic expectation, realistic expectation with Touhou is always a return to status quo, which I guess I'm fine with.

>>23633465
>sounds like you may be misinterpreting those events
??

Fuck off? What's there to "misinterpret" about this? Again ZUN didn't say anything that counters this, I just question it. She can certainly be an asshole without intentionally being "bad", like an idiot who shoplifts without thinking about it, but she still does bad and he wasn't saying being with her was good, just better. Throughout AoCF she straight up expresses the will to, and in fact does, take from others.

>>23633494
>What's there to "misinterpret" about this?
The seriousness of it all, perhaps? Causing mayhem in the context of Touhou isn't really a big deal, everyone and their mom does it for fun.

I'll break things down for you.

"she has no intent on making you unhappy on purpose (unlike Joon), so I think you'd be better off with her (than with Joon)"

Which quite unambiguously makes her a better person than Joon.

>>23633526
It doesn't though. You qualify a person who actually thinks about what they're doing for better or worse, and acts according to their sense of right and wrong as WORSE than a person who selfishly is self-absorbed and cares only about getting by, no matter how people suffer in the process, only because this second person isn't doing it with the zeal and joy that comes with doing ill and loving it?

That's worse. She's practically a sociopath.

>>23633548
>only because this second person isn't doing it with the zeal and joy that comes with doing ill and loving it?
Err, yes, absolutely? That's the definition of being a bad person, doing something bad to someone knowingly and even enjoying it.

And what he says doesn't even refer to Shion's actions, just to her ability. She makes things bad for people without wanting to, just by being near them.

>>23633587
She also does bad on purpose stop being a dipshit. She's equally as culpable for spamming people out of their money and enjoyed it. Say she didn't feel like what she was doing was bad, so what? Without a sense of morality that made her not see ANY errors in her ways, unlike Joon. She claimed that after everything, she STILL wanted to exploit others. Joon claimed otherwise, and goes on to still thieve, but only if she's pretty sure whoever she's exploiting won't crash from her actions.

She's better.

>>23633613
>spamming
scamming, obviously

The only thing I'd argue is that if you want to say Joon is "worse" for knowing the full context of her actions and still going through with it, fine, but I think it's subjective because again, it's fucking brain-fucked sociopathy to do bad things with NO regard for right or wrong.

>>23633402
>>23633494
What I could take from these is that Shion is always the one to trail behind an asshole, but there's lack of indication that she intentionally does the harm herself and she's being judged simply because of her passive ability and the two assholes she follows.
She's not a goody two-shoes but definitely not more asshole that old Joon. She's uncaring at best.

>>23633613
>She's equally as culpable for spamming people out of their money and enjoyed it.
Sure, she wants money, would be weird is she didn't. So she went along with Joon's scheme.
> She claimed that after everything, she STILL wanted to exploit others. Joon claimed otherwise
ZUN: "Why do you think Byakuren's suggestion of trying a simpler, less materialistic life resonated with Joon but not with Shion?"
Galaxy brain: "Hmmmm I don't know, probably because she's a MORALLY BAD PERSON"

Moralfags begone

>>23633653
>Sure, she wants money, would be weird is she didn't.
Yeah, not a problem that she has considered no other possible venues and has been at this long enough with Joon to have a shared title referring to how much crime both of them do, sure.

>>23633680
>Yeah, not a problem that she has considered no other possible venues
I'm pretty sure it's literally not possible for her to make money. Her power generates misfortune even for herself.

>>23633680
She has no possible venues, it's her nature. Her personality is basically passive because of that, and she allowed herself to be puled into Joon's scheme, hoping against hope that it will somehow be different this time.

I'm not by any means implying Shion is some kind of shining paragon of virtue, just that

1) She's better than Joon because she's not actively malevolent.
2) She's basically what you'd expect a really poor and unfortunate person to be like. Probably doesn't care much about your well-being, but unlikely to harm you on purpose.

>>23632970
Being drawn by hand already makes early fairies and horny hermit better when it comes to art. Even I can download stamps for photoshop. It's almost an instult towards all the artists who actually put effort into their work when the person who gets picked for official content is someone who can't even be bothered to draw. I don't know how anyone can look at that manga and think it's somehow OK or the same as WaHH. Do people just not notice these things or do they just eat up anything because it says Touhou on the cover?

>>23633701
I did say that she has an excuse, possibly, to be a cunt, but that doesn't stop her from being a cunt.

>1) She's better than Joon because she's not actively malevolent.
This is a broken argument when her lack of goodness as WELL as her lack of malevolence leads her to being a pure asshole. That isn't a good quality to a person, and don't try to pretend that it is.

Oh ladida, I'm just an innocent thief!

>>23633723
True, but remember that CDS is free.

>>23633750
>I did say that she has an excuse, possibly, to be a cunt, but that doesn't stop her from being a cunt.
Okay, you did, but you then also complained that she didn't "consider other venues" when that's not possible. Just don't bring it up.

It's Joon who does the stealing anyway. Shion just drives the getaway car and splits the loot. In a court of law that's a lesser crime.

>>23633750
>This is a broken argument when her lack of goodness as WELL as her lack of malevolence leads her to being a pure asshole. That isn't a good quality to a person
Is this some kind of youkai morality, because I can't make heads or tails of it.

>>23632974
So if you were in the village, and you meet someone who comes every week to quietly do their shopping... but then you spot a tail or something which indicates that they're secretly a man-eating monster. There's plenty of people around, you're sure that you can't be the only person who saw it, but no one is saying anything, they're just treating it as the most normal thing in the world.

You'd say "Ha! Return to your true form as a man-eating monster right now!"? Seriously?

>it's still a kind of place where pretty much everyone would know everyone, at least by sight. Mamizou appears, starts walking around and no one comments, no one asks if she's from the outside world or something, they just like "Oh, she probably always lived in the village and we just didn't notice her all those decades".
Of course they fucking notice, they just don't want to say anything. You seriously think "the purple-haired youkai with rabbit ears who sells medicine from the forest doctor" being replaced by "the purple-haired woman in a hat who sells the exact same medicine from the forest doctor" is actually fooling anyone? When she has the exact same stock and clients? Even Udonge herself says the disguise is stupid. Mustache guy has literally seen one of his dealer's friends call her a youkai right in front of him, but he isn't going to rat her out if it means giving up his antidepressants.

>>23633768
>>It's Joon who does the stealing anyway
Nah they both do, and they both gloat over it afterward. They love it.

>>23633771
It's the "don't defend serial killers and the criminally insane" morality.

>>23633833
>You'd say "Ha! Return to your true form as a man-eating monster right now!"? Seriously?
Um, I'm not sure, but what gave you the idea I was implying that?
>Of course they fucking notice, they just don't want to say anything.
Well Kosuzu didn't find Mamizou suspicious at all, that's what I'm questioning. I think it would be natural for her to at least say something like "Oh, I haven't seen you around the village before, are you by any chance a recent arrival from the outside world or something?"

>>23633750
No one ever said Shion is good, but this argument just boils down to whether being apathetic is above active malevolence or not despite both are arguably below the line.
I more inclined towards the former and I won't call Shion "asshole" but heh, each to their own, I guess.

>>23633858
Pretty sure serial killers actively want to cause harm and enjoy it. You're right with criminally insane, they are not morally bad, they are just, you know, insane. Mentally ill.

None of which has anything to do with Shion, of course.

>>23633876
>No one ever said Shion is good, but this argument just boils down to whether being apathetic is above active malevolence or not despite both are arguably below the line.
Correct, that's sort of my point
>>23633626
>it's subjective

>>23633882
>Pretty sure serial killers actively want to cause harm and enjoy it
It depends, however most do.

What you'd call Shion is "morally bankrupt", which is not a term anyone uses in a nice way.

>>23633872
>Well Kosuzu didn't find Mamizou suspicious at all, that's what I'm questioning.
Because none of the adults around her treat people like that as suspicious. The parties are always filled with people she doesn't know. Also it's rude to pry.

This is Byakuren all over again.

>>23633895
You are way overthinking Shion, in my opinion. She doesn't lack a sense of morality in some weird way. She is just so depressed due to circumstances outside her control that she doesn't much care about other people, because even if she and Joon steal from them, they would _still_ be way better off than her. She's basically at the very bottom of Maslow's pyramid, because her most basic needs (food, clothing, shelter) aren't met. Have you ever been depressed? It's not being "evil", it's just being to concentrated on your own suffering to care about the others.

>>23633895
>What you'd call Shion is "morally bankrupt", which is not a term anyone uses in a nice way.
Someone who is "morally bankrupt" has no morals whatsoever. Do you consider Shion a character who would murder people if that's what she needed to get her fix? I doubt it. She just doesn't have much of a moral compass when it comes to impoverishing people. After all, some people have been living in poverty their whole lives. They'll get over it.

I'm not saying this is CORRECT to believe. It's clearly defective morality. I just don't think it's comparable to "serial killer", "criminally insane", or even "sociopathy."

>>23633954
i can't believe shion was a communist all along

Defending Shion needs to be punishable by CBT session.

>>23633954
I didn't say it was evil, but I will say it's bad and doesn't lead to being any sort of "good person".

>>23633959
>She just doesn't have much of a moral compass
She just is morally bankrupt* that's a synonymous phrase

It's pretty sociopathic to completely not care how much financial damage you've wrought. Look at CEOs

>>23633975
That's why she fell in love with Tenshi, after all.

>>23633980
>Look at CEOs
Look at CEO's, this malnourished hobo wearing rags is exactly the same.

>>23633978
ZUN defended her. Do you stand by your words?

>>23633980
>She just is morally bankrupt* that's a synonymous phrase
Way to cut off my sentence in the middle and delete the ENTIRE FUCKING POINT of my sentence.

>It's pretty sociopathic to completely not care how much financial damage you've wrought. Look at CEOs.
One of the reasons we make fun of CEOs for being sociopaths because they are already infinitely richer than you or I. Telemarketers annoy the shit out of people - they contribute basically nothing to society and spread misery - but people call the telemarketing company CEOs the sociopaths, not the poor sod working the phones.

>>23634007
Aye. The hobo has superpowers.

>>23634019
ZUN basically said that between a piece of shit and a puddle of piss, the puddle of piss would be better

>>23634029
The epic superpower of being miserable all the time.

>>23634027
Shion is NOT working. Again to me it only comes down to what you do, and she doesn't do anything good.

Again, she has an excuse but I don't think it excuses her actions.

>>23634029
A superpower she never wanted

>>23634056
She still leans into it.

>>23634045
>she has an excuse but she doesn't have an excuse

>>23634045
>Again to me it only comes down to what you do, and she doesn't do anything good.
Look, the concept of "mitigating circumstances" was not invented by those of us arguing in this thread just now. It's an established part of the legal system, it's been around for ages. You don't have to believe in it but don't act like we're insane for looking at it.

>>23634029
We don't even know if ZUN hold the same view for them and trying to portray them as such. People are just arguing over morality views of some anons here.

>>23634064
explain

The main point of SSiB is that youkai are powerless against lunarians in terms of power, but youkai are clever enough to still remain a threat to lunarians despite that. This is analogous to the human-youkai power balance.
The main point of Suzunaan is that the relationship between humans and youkai is antagonistic but at the same time, codependent. Akyuu's concept of "infinite truths" is an attempt to explain how this paradox can describe Gensokyo.
I cannot for the life of me tell what the main point of Ibarakasen was.

>>23651795
>I cannot for the life of me tell what the main point of Ibarakasen was.
Conflict sucks?

>>23651795
The main point of Ibarakasen is that you can appear in character 45, act like you're the main protagonist and get away with it.

>>23651853
>chapter 45
obviously

>>23651795
Sangetsusei but replace the fairies with Reimu

>>23651795
>I cannot for the life of me tell what the main point of Ibarakasen was.
Sakuya is an atheist who can't stop time.

>>23651795
Reimu is dumb.

>>23651795
Anon is furiously flagellating his frenulum to this post.

>>23651795
Cute oni doing cute things

>>23651795
Showing how a single mother can struggle with parenting, overeating and alcoholism.

>>23651795
Drunkenness overcomes calamity.

>>23633273
>Even the previously cited SDM rescued villager was not scared by Remilia; he found her very amiable
Man those doujins writes itself.

>>23655392
True

>>23655392
Hey, mister.

>>23633230
I don’t think Nue is an outcast.

>>23651795
Cameo circus and then "oh right I guess I should have a plot"

>>23651795
That Kasen is a shit character