/jp/ - Otaku Culture

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>>20759550
pretentious my ass go tell it to someone who cares

welcome to every visual novel ever made.

>>20759550
Don't play 25 hours of something you don't like, autist. Upvoted

>reading subahibi without reading Wittgenstein

That's where you fucked up pleb.

>>20760959
Do you need to have read Kant to read the Tractatus like you seem to for most of modern Western philosophy, or is it fairly standalone? I have read about 1/3 of the Critique of Pure Reason so far. I wouldn't mind taking a break and reading something else.

>>20761050
It's fairly standalone, doesn't really seem to rely on outside systems/logic. It's still a bit of a tough read though due to Wittgenstein's autism.

Subahibi is an 意識高い系 (ishiki takai kei) VN, much like chuunige but in different vector.

>>20761050
Tractacus and Investigations are notably stand-alone.
The Tractacus is absolutely painful to read tho. It's not as bad as Hegel or Derrida, but it's definitely worse than Kant.

>>20761371
Smart chuunige are pretty much what I want.

>>20761492
How do you even differentiate them, but I want this too

to be fair, you have to have a pretty high IQ to understand Subahibi

>>20761418
It's also bad and disowned by the author.

>>20761675
Much like Subarashiki Hibi itself. Is this some deep meta symbolism?

7/10 vn, slow and boring for a lot of the parts. I don't even know what some of the text is trying to say to me something, like its talking jiberish. People at the VN general are telling me "you got to read x books", nah not going to happen.

>>20761966
Subahibi isn't bad nor disowned by the author, the fuck? Are you confusing it with Tsui no Sora?

>>20759550
Yeah, I couldn't take it anymore of this shit either. Everyone was saying "Oh, it gets better after the intro" and then "Oh, it gets better during My Own Invention" and after that "Oh, Insects is where it's at" but the middle of that route is where I stopped reading.
It's just full of torture porn and sex scenes for shock value.
Just quoting from a philosophy book doesn't make your VN a "kamige".
I'd expect heavy breathing fat japanese NEETs to go "Woah kakkoii!!" but I don't understand why the west is also obsessed with it.
Also, fuck Mamiya Takuji and your one dimensional bullies.
The fact that everyone has to go through the yuri intro, even those who hate it, is absolutely hilarious though.

>>20759550
Fuck off, Newt. You are such an anti-loli moralfag cuck.

>>20759550
Pleb filter VN.

i remembering hearing somewhere that it's ok to not like things.

I think people talking about how life changing it is are going overboard, introducing somebody to outdated but extremely interesting branches of philosophy COULD be life-changing but anybody could have explained them to you. I respect Subahibi for how it's constructed, and how the more you genuinely engage with it the more it gives you to think about. You can call it pretentious, I disagree. There is an established meaning and reason to all of it, it's not just a series of references calling attention to real world ideas. But it's okay if you don't like it bro, why try so hard when you enjoyed almost none of it? Did you let somebody trick you into doing this?

>>20763289
It changed my life because it made me get into tulpas (aka self-induced pretend-DID). It improved my social skills a lot.

Cute Kimigga.

>>20762733
EOP spotted. Go read サクラノ詩 and then try saying the same thing with a straight face, assuming you can even understand it on a deeper level, that is.

>>20764870
re-releases game, writes new chapter, still retweets shit about it all the damn time, talked it up along with his creative procedure during localization... i dunno bro.

>>20764890
There's intellectual disowning and there's denying you ever wrote it. We're clearly experiencing the first kind here, bro. SCA-自 also needs money to survive and write his next masterpiece.

>>20764912
i am an eop, can you fill me in on how exactly he disowned it? im always hesitant to believe stuff like this. writers don't always place an objectively true part of themself into their work, and they don't have to fully agree with or believe what they're saying either.

>>20759550
My exact thoughts on this VN.

>>20759550
moogy and his meme cartel != "unanimously considered to be a masterpiece"

>>20765758
while i don't disagree with this, most of the people i know who are into this vn think moogy is a pretentious cunt. myself included.

>>20761371
In English we call works like this pretentious.

>>20761371
In English plebs like to call works like this pretentious.

>>20764943
>can you fill me in on how exactly he disowned it?
In a meta way, by comparing it to the Tractatus while comparing サクラノ詩 to Investigations. Just read the visual novel if you want more "depth", doubt you'll find much though. That being said, it's a pretty nice sex game.
>writers don't always place an objectively true part of themself into their work
You're right, mediocre ones like SCA-自 usually don't. That's why their works tend to not feel human.

>>20765791
What do people these days even mean by saying "pretentious"? Pretending is a conscious act, so you have to establish intent to really show that something is pretentious. I don't see how you can realistically do that. If you want to call it shallow trash (which it is), then why not just call it that instead?

>>20762942
I never heard anyone says it gets better after Insects. The common consensus is that it gets better in Jabberwocky. Which is when everything starts coming together.

Legit I disliked most of the VN, but having spent 7000yen on it, felt obligated to finish it. Once I got through Jabberwocky and then finished the whole VN, it actually became my favorite.

It has a lot to build up, but getting to the end of the ride is totally worth it.

>>20763289
It changed my life. But not because of the philosophy, just the over all message and the presentation really struck and chord with me at the right time. 幸福に生きよ！

>>20766027
I get that you don't like him or his work but you know that's not what was being said lmao. Anyway, if the supposed meta of comparing Investigations to it is all you've got then I'm inclined not to believe you. Wittgenstein and his ideas aren't really relevant in society today but I doubt it's anything to "intellectually disown" it over.

>>20759550
because of the pretentious part i also dropped it. pile of junk.

>>20766186
What happens in the end?

>>20766186
>It gets better in Jabberwocky
Fool me twice, shame on me.

>>20766264
>I get that you don't like him or his work
When did I ever say that? You seem to be looking for deeper hidden messages/meta-text in my straightforward writing. But I'm not SCA-自, so you won't find deeper meaning here.

>Anyway, if the supposed meta of comparing Investigations to it is all you've got
The game itself explains it much better than I ever could. If you supposedly understood 素晴らしき日々 (which I highly doubt since you seem to think that the Tractatus is the only work it uses quotes and surface-level ideas from), then you should be able to understand what I'm talking about when it gets translated. Alternatively, you could just read a review of it from one of your favorite internet bloggers.
>but I doubt it's anything to "intellectually disown" it over.
He's not disowning Wittgenstein's ideas, he's disowning his own previous work by comparing it on a meta level to a work of literature/art which has been intellectually disowned by its author. You're pretty dense, but I guess that comes with considering stuff like 素晴らしき日々 to be anything above mediocre.

>>20766527
what a snob, try and wipe the poo off those fingers you're typing with since you've been exploring up your own butt a little bit too much methinks

>>20766575
Do you have anything of actual subtance to say? I guess not. How truly pitiful.
>methinks
Essentially this.

>>20766617
your response had no substance either
get a life loser

>>20766710
I grant that my previous post (>>20766617) had pretty much no substance, but that's only due to me responding to something with even less substance.
To deny the deep substance in >>20766527 you have to do more than mere insults.

>>20766743
subahibi might not be pretentious, but you sure are
not interested in denying your rubbish, perhaps the guy you were talking to might fancy arguing with a know-it-all prick, but not me

>>20766808
No thanks, if i wanted stupid argument about who "understands" what I'd get into politics. Besides most of what he said was baseless assumptions and/or misreadings of what I said, culminating in the textual equivalent of sniffing your own farts. He can't explain what he's getting at and I can't read Japanese, so there's no point.

Kimika may be cute, but she is a human being. And because of that, she has a smelly asshole and a hairy pussy.

She is pathetic.

>>20767015
>hairy pussy
Not if she shaves.

>>20766527
Sakura no Uta itself loses a significant amount of meaning if you read it alone. SubaHibi deals with people who are in the state of unhappiness, trying to find happiness. While Sakura no Uta deals with what comes afterwards. The first game is the ladder that you need to throw away to reach the second game, but to call it bad or mediocre while praising the other is to so misunderstand the work (or even the ideas of Art conveyed in Sakura no Uta). And a ton of ideas from SubaHibi are directly referenced in the monologue in chapter 5, showing a development rather than a disownment.

>>20767091
>Japanese
>shaving

>>20767364
Who are you quoting?

>>20762942
It isn't just 'quoting from a philosophy book' but putting those ideas into motion in fictional scenarios. There's a reason why the opening epigraph of Invention is Marx's "first as tragedy, then as farce" - because that's what happens throughout the chapter. The torture porn and sex are given as a tragedy, but, later, the silly antics of the cult undercuts them and turns them into a farce. And this reflects on the entire philosophy established through the game of how easily unhappiness can switch over to happiness but we don't see this because we're limited as humans. Each route builds on this to 'increase' the scope of our view. Zakuro's route undercuts the suffering experienced by Mamiya and hints at the reality outside his delusions. Later routes will be more expansive.

Some works of fiction has to be experienced in entirely, like a painting, so you can see the cohesive whole at the end.

>>20767015
>tries to end her life to stop being a pathetic human condition whore who needs to poop
>becomes a disgusting rotting corpse
Kimika is retarded.

Why do you keep making this thread OP. It clearly doesn't make you any less upset, so I suggest you try focusing on happy things instead of shitting up the board!

>>20759550
get gud skrub

>>20766186
lol you can easily download vns for free on nyaatorrents and many other websites

>>20763108
This but unironically.

>>20759550
You're 100% right, it's good only because the rest of the scene is garbage as well

>>20767382
>opening epigraph of Invention
Is there any particular reason you're using the most literal implementation of a quote from the game as an explanation for why they're not just merely quotes? Can you do the same with the other quotes in the openings of the other routes? I'm sure that would be more convincing to people who disagree with you.

>>20772061
lol convince /a/ of something? really?

>>20772548
According to my browser this is /jp/.

>>20772655
that's where you'd be wrong, smaller less populated /a/ user.

>>20767321
>The first game is the ladder that you need to throw away to reach the second game
go home Wittgenstein

>>20772061
I chose that quote because it has the least layers. Some of the others would take significantly more analysis for the layers. Just as an example of the use of Cyrano:

Firstly, on a mere plot-level, foreshadowing the ‘twist’. Secondly, as Takuji mentions once, it’s a work of entertainment that provides a bit of reprieve and is well-written, and this mirrors the core of what SubaHibi sets out to be – using tropes gleamed from a variety of low-entertainment genres to make a greater philosophical point. Thirdly, the soap-bubbles speech used reflects on the metafictional layer of the plot (the reference is about how Cyrano's words are like beautiful 'soap bubbles' or ephemeral dreams thrown in the wind), while also simultaneously providing parallels to plot elements. Fourthly, the character of Cyrano provides an ideal ‘hero’ for the characters to emulate, seen straightforwardly in Insects Kimika’s end, while seen ironically in the true end of Insects, and also parallels with Tomosane’s eventual role in the story. Fifthly, it helps to illustrate a couple of character traits, like Zakuro’s naïve romanticism, when you combine the fact that she likes it, with other fairy-tales like Alice in Wonderland. Finally, motifs used such as Cyrano travelling to the moon have symbolic parallels in both the motif of the sky and what happens to Zakuro in Insects/DH1. So the reference works narratively, as characterization, and thematically.

Some of the chapters, like Jabberwocky, have the reference straight up explained to you. Wittgenstein is the most complex since the whole game plays off his quotes.

>>20772969
explain the symbolism that justifies an hour long scene of takuji getting homo mouthraped

>>20773191
That's extremely simple. The structure of SubaHibi is that it takes the perspective of the characters and translates events as how they perceive it. The length of the chapters is related to how the characters actually feel. If you got homo mouthraped you'd feel like a few minutes would be drawn out into an hour, wouldn't you?

The routes before Jabberwocky are all lengthened, while Jabberwocky and after are short and focused because the transition from unhappiness to happiness works in such a fashion. That's why we have the phrase "time flies when we're having fun".

>>20773359
Incidentally, this is supported by how they treat Zakuro in Insects. The bullying and humiliation is more drawn out, yet SCA-Ji took the wise artistic choice of having the big R be quick and traumatic, because that's how Zakuro would perceive it. That's why the bullying here is tons more realistic than all the other silly humiliation in other VNs.

>>20773359
>>20773369
do you actually believe that though

>>20773507
Where does 'belief' come in? I'm merely recounting what happens in the game itself and how scenes function in relation to the whole of the work. I gave evidence from the structure too. It's as much 'belief' as the 'belief' a detective has when he has facts to support his interpretation of things, whereas so far you haven't shown anything supporting what you believe, whatever you believe in the first place.

who cares sakuuta is better

I want to hug Mamiya Takuji in bed

>>20773998
>when he has facts to support his interpretation of things
do you actually believe that you are looking at connected facts?

>>20777461
do you have an argument?

>>20777812
why are you answering my question with a question?

>>20777812
Not that anon, but the parallels you are drawing are fairly vague in most cases (for instance, Zakuro's naive romanticism has no real relation to Cyrano beyond that one scene that has her quoting a couple lines of his final speech which sticks in your mind because it's repeated in various alterations like 10 times, and I don't have the remotest idea what you are trying to get at by saying that Kimika's end is based on the ideal of Cyrano), and beyond that, even if everything you're pointing to were present in the game, and not just the projection of your own over-eager mind, it just amounts to a bunch of technically impressive cross-references, and does not make SubaHibi any more or less of a compelling story.

Don't get me wrong, I actually think it's fairly decent as a piece of entertainment, and there are some moments of genuine philosophical insight in it, but those are just that, moments. For the most part it's (agreeable) fluff, and in between those two there are many situations where both characters and plot are paper-thin, and you have to either be blind, or be willing to overlook a lot of simplistic, near-unbelievable nonsense to have it work for you.

>>20777953
now Umineko, that's a well-written high-brow piece of literature

I'm not him just so you know.

>>20777953
>I don't have the remotest idea what you are trying to get at by saying that Kimika's end is based on the ideal of Cyrano

I mean that Zakuro uses the same parts of the speech (mon panache) in 2 different contexts (and not just small scenes, but major parts of each route) - one when she's trying to save Kimika in the good route of Insects, the other when she's jumping off the roof batshit crazy in the other end. So in one case she lives up to the ideal of Cyrano as the brave hero, and in the other case its totally ironic because, despite using the exact same text, her bravery is used to kill herself and escape into her fantasies. How much of a projection is that, to point out a moment when a quote is clearly used and twisted in 2 different scenarios to establish an effect?

>Zakuro's naive romanticism has no real relation to Cyrano beyond that one scene that has her quoting a couple lines of his final speech which sticks in your mind because it's repeated in various alterations like 10 times

If you noticed, that was my fifth analysis, which I said was connected with other traits. Alice in Wonderland does more to establish that idea, but from her talks with Takuji she reveals she likes reading light, whimsical stories such as (if I recall correctly) Marquez and that Italian Children's Book Author. Cyrano is simply something she, as a character, would be drawn to based on what you know of her. It's just a little detail but it still adds purpose to the quote.

>any more than impressive cross-references, and does not make SubaHibi any more or less of a compelling story

That might be true in other works, but if you noticed I also stated that the structure does support the quotes. They work together, in that stuff like the Wittgenstein quotes or any of the other references are condensations of things that the story wants to express. And that leads me to my next point...

>For the most part it's (agreeable) fluff, and in between those two there are many situations where both characters and plot are paper-thin, and you have to either be blind, or be willing to overlook a lot of simplistic, near-unbelievable nonsense to have it work for you.

The most interesting thing about SubaHibi is that the whole is more interesting than its individual parts. If you look at its moments in isolation - SubaHibi isn't the best mystery, it doesn't have the funniest Slice of Life, nor the craziest action scenes, and maybe only the denpa parts are what it does well. Takuji is probably the most complex character, Zakuro and Kimika have some complexity as well, but the other characters are kind of like archetypes or stereotypes.

Yet, because of the way the chapters are structured, that each chapter represents a specific POV and it 'widens' gradually over the course of the game - the genres themselves are utilized to bring out deeper things. DtH1 is Yuri SoL, DtH2 functions as a mystery, Invention as a denpa story, Insects as a school caste story, Jabberwocky as a shounen action plot, and the last 2 chapters brings it all together. The genre switches hew to what each character is perceiving at each point in time, and the philosophical quotes within (or whatever comes from Ayana) comments on the limitation of each character's perception, as well as the limitations of perception itself. Because of that, the references are more than just "technically impressive cross-references" - they form a metatextual layer that syncs perfectly with the structure of the work.

When you see Takuji going crazy in Invention, it's treated like comedy in a later route (and in Kimika's end in the same route). Zakuro is idealized and made mysterious in previous routes, but within her own route, she views Takuji as the one who is mysterious and multi-faceted. That's a lot more than just genre-switching fluff, but it attacks and subverts the previous chapters, and it supports the themes conveyed within the references.

>>20778543
I don't trust your limited perspective to truly see the depth of Subarashiki Hibi.

I'm him, actually.

Cool. Me too, actually. What a deep twist forming a meta-textual layer using the nature of this thread itself.

>>20778576
I wonder what genre you must be living in your head. I'm guessing interracial NTR.

>>20778543
>SubaHibi isn't the best mystery, it doesn't have the funniest Slice of Life, nor the craziest action scenes, and maybe only the denpa parts are what it does well
Pretending to be mediocre to make a meta-point is just being mediocre.

>>20778602
It's the genre of genre-switching. Interracial NTR is included as a very minor part of the story taking up an entire route. I'll admit that it's not the best interracial NTR out there though.

>>20778607
Except that I didn't say it was pretending to be mediocre specifically to make that meta point. I was saying that it is not the best in parts but it comes together superbly. Like how, although she didn't have the best looks, brains, or pussy, for that matter - your mom was still extremely fuckable last night.

Subahibi changed my life. After finishing the game I went out and bought all of Wittgenstein's books, five different translations of Cyrano, and a fedora to go with it. Now whenever I get bullied at school I yell out MON PANACHE!!! and with a tip of my fedora initiate an epic battle. After disposing of the evil bullies I always give them a lecture on how their view of the world is wrong, and make sure to end it with the best quote of all time - 幸福に生きよ！

>>20773369
Realistic bullying and buttnaked humiliation is hotter than the usual hentai kind.

I'm trying to write a visual novel right now and I'd like to ask for some advice from the posters here. How many unrelated genres should I incorporate into my planned 10 routes of the story? And exactly how bad should I make the writing on purpose? I could of course have the writing and characters be really well-executed since I obviously have the writing skills necessary, but I'm actually trying to force a 'metatextual' layer on top of the story to make a deeper point since I've heard good writers do that type of stuff and I think I can do the same here.

Also, can anyone recommend a couple of good (preferably short) philosophy books to incorporate into my story? I've already read Alice in Wonderland in multiple languages and used a lot of life-changing quotes from it, so no need to suggest that.

Here's a sketch/future CG I made to convey a deeper idea present in the story, well, not in the story itself, but in how I utilize certain archetypes and paper-thin characters without deviating from their usual implementation in the slightest to bring attention to how bad stories mindlessly copy archetypes. It's quite subtle and clever, actually. Even the artstyle does a lot to establish some kind of deeper purpose by subtly referencing Jung and Cyrano while commenting on the complex and multi-faceted reality of bullying in Japanese schools.
I even utilize this unique method of 'metastorytelling' by explaining the main 'metapoint' (using a quote from a real-life book) outright near the middle of the visual novel by breaking the fourth wall during a tense scene in a really simplistic way to make it absolutely clear to anyone reading the story that there is something much deeper going on.

>>20779282
I recommend taking the book burning plotline from the classic Fahrenheit 451 but it's eroge being burned instead. Anyone who has read the original will recognize the parallel and you'll be hailed as a genius for interpreting such a groundbreaking work in a modern way. You could even have a character smoke from a pipe and quote lines straight from the book. Truly a masterpiece in the making.

i wonder why it always descends into "durr me explain story in dumb way"

you know you can make anything sound like stupid hot garbage that way, right? does anybody actually have anything to say?
bad thread.

>>20779282
quality post

>>20766027
>In a meta way, by comparing it to the Tractatus while comparing サクラノ詩 to Investigations

Did Sca-ji actually say that in a interview or even twitter, and implied that it means that he "disowned Subahibi"? Because if not, I'm not sure if you really have a clue about what you are talking about. I don't think that Sakuuta compares to Investigations in any sense. If you mean in the way that PI "intellectually disowns" the Tractatus and are using that as a metaphor, that's pretty much a view which is far from mainstream from people who "actually" has read and discussed Wittgenstein through the years and not just "heard of". To the point that I'd be willing to say that most serious dichotomies of "early-Wittgenstein" and "post-Wittgenstein" are entirely false - but, even if you disagree, which you can on various levels since that's a pretty bold statement from me, saying that he "disowned" anything about the Tractatus makes me wonder if you even has read the lasts lines from the preface of it, precisely what Wittgenstein meant by the Tractatus - which if yes, I'm deeply interested about your answer of how in any means his approach changing means that he disowned it in any way. Or do you actually mean that the fact that he changed his mind about the picture-theory of language in PI means that he disowned the TLP?
And I could even agree about the core idea of Sakuuta being an antithesis for Suba, mainly from the fact that the main answer is based in the Sense whereas Subahibi was concerned with the Nonsense. But it'd be pretty shallow to take it the way you've just took. It'd be even worse if you are saying that while having knowledge that most things that he says on his private twitter still aren't far from the (positive) skeptic position from Subahibi.
Also, one could say that the approach towards philosophy changed from Suba to Sakuuta, but that'd be mostly "Donald Davidson vs the neo-Wittgensteinian takes on phil of action" (which jokes on you, isn't even about Wittgensteim himself anymore!), and not in any sense, "Tractatus vs PI Wittgenstein". Or actually, maybe it could be in the sense of "Tractatus' vs On Certainty's Wittgenstein", but to be honest, I highly doubt you have read the latter so I'll not even argue.

>>20779725
>I highly doubt you have read the latter so I'll not even argue
This. I doubt that kid has even read and comprehended (the various metatextual layers of) Subarashiki Hibi in their entirety, much less the masterpiece that is Edmond Rostand's Cyrano de Bergerac and how it references and foreshadows Otonashi Ayana's deep and well-developed character. And that's understandable. Not everyone can handle deep quotes like 「幸福に生きよ！」 being radioed-in directly to their brain.

>>20761050
To be honest, I'd agree with what people said about the Tractatus being fairly standalone, and as long that you bother searching the references, you'll probably understand it. But knowing Kant would help since the Wittgensteinian distinction between phenomenal and noumenal (namely sense and nonsense) mostly comes from him, or arguably, through the Schopenhauer version of him.
I'd also recommend reading Frege.

>>20779787
On Certainty isn't even related to Subahibi. I mean, I appreciate you cynicism and your marvelous, not even fallacious, point of "stop talking about a porn game like it's something deep" since I myself don't think that any of it (or philosophy in general even) is deep at all, and would prefer if everyone thought that way.
But I'm talking about how anyone who has actually read post-Wittgenstein would not say something as dumb as him "disowning TLP", not about your porn game.

>>20779787
On Certainty isn't even related to Subahibi. I mean, I appreciate you cynicism and your marvelous, not even fallacious, point of "stop talking about a porn game like it's something deep" since I myself don't think that any of it (or philosophy in general even) is deep at all, and would prefer if everyone thought that way.
But I'm talking about how anyone who has actually read post-Wittgenstein would not say something as dumb as him "disowning TLP", not about your "porn game".

>>20761050
To be honest, I agree with what people said about the Tractatus being fairly standalone, and as long that you bother searching the references, you'll probably understand it. But knowing Kant would help since the Wittgensteinian distinction between phenomenal and noumenal (namely sense and nonsense) mostly comes from him, or arguably, through the Schopenhauer version of him.
I'd also recommend reading Frege.

>>20779865
Oh, I meant "later-Wittgenstein"*, sorry,

>>20779282
I didn't say that SCA-Ji's writing was bad, so you're parodying the wrong thing. Archetypes or paper-thin characters can work in fiction since there are real people who have that personality in real life (those archetypes exist for a reason after all) provided that you juxtapose them or bounce them off each other, giving them meaning in the text.

>without deviating from their usual implementation in the slightest

Didn't make this point. I think SCA-Ji deviates from their usual implementation all throughout the work.

The art is just nice. I love the bg they use for the skies.

Good job putting so much effort into a shitpost though.

>>20779865
It's easy to get lost in jargon when the language used in philosophy circles isn't exactly the most comprehensible thing, and of course when people get caught up in that we get this bullshit. People tend to equate depth with difficulty of comprehension, thus we get the same dichotomy for the thousandth time. The positive circlejerk that validates the negative circlejerk that opposes it, and boy does everybody hate eachother.

I want everybody to know that the thing you like doesn't have to be "deep" or impactful to everybody who maybe just doesn't like or "doesn't get it". Far be it from me to try and tell anybody what's acceptable to enjoy or not.

>>20779936
Yep. I really meant it when I said "and would prefer if everyone thought that way".

Has anyone compiled a list of deep works of literature I have to read and analyze before even having a fighting chance at appreciating Subahibi? I don't mind studying philosophy for a couple of years as an initiation ceremony to get me closer to understanding this masterfully crafted work of art.

>>20779973
You have to start with the Greeks. Scaji intended this story to be experienced by philosophy masters such as himself, not the average consumer, so you better get started.

>>20779865
>I myself don't think that any of it (or philosophy in general even) is deep at all
On the contrary. And actually, first of all, let's establish the proper name of this visual novel as being "Subarashiki Hibi" so as to properly honor the high-level literary device of using quotes from literary works (in this case the work is the title of the visual novel itself). Now that that's out of the way, I'm assuming we agree that Subarashiki Hibi presents a very nuanced view of reality by showing us the unobvious fact of our perspective being ultimately limited, which immediately leads us to concluding 幸福に生きよ. This is a very deep thought which is echoed throughout every single route of the game as I'm sure you're aware. This alone certainly warrants calling Subarashiki Hibi 'deep' in my limited eyes. See [1], [2] and [3] for a deeper explanation of my thoughts as I don't think this thread is really ready for them at this time. We can discuss this matter in-depth using some other channels since I'm afraid of my thoughts leaking out to the people here who can't even understand Cyrano de Bergerac on a deeper level, much less quote it in French.
[1] Saul Kripke. Philosophical Troubles. Collected Papers Vol. 1. Oxford University Press, 2011
[2] Saul Kripke. Wittgenstein on Rules and Private Language: an Elementary Exposition. Harvard University Press, 1982
[3] L. E. J. Brouwer. "Intuitionistic reflections on formalism. 1927

>>20779282
Best post in the thread

>>20779928
>Archetypes or paper-thin characters can work in fiction since there are real people who have that personality in real life
Fiction has to be believable, reality doesn't.

>>20780037
Kripkenstein makes me nostalgic actually.

>>20759550
I enjoyed the game, but honestly, it really isn't that deep or thought-provoking at all. I don't really get why it got so overhyped, or why people seem to think you need to read all this shit to understand it when it literally goes out of its way to fully explain everything that it references. The story is pretty good, and takes some interesting turns here and there, although it is flawed. I always skip past any horrid rape/bully shit in any game though, and that probably helped me a lot here. It has a stupid reputation, but it's a fine game in its own right. I can understand your reaction though.

>why is it so pretentious
>why is there so much trash otaku references mixed in this is so bad
>I don't get the philo part it must be because the writing is dumb

>>20779282
Just pick a few obscure philosophers and literary works and reference them enough that readers start drawing parallels that aren't really there. Everybody knows that real intellectuals spend years reading philosophy instead of thinking the universe through for themselves anyway.

>>20780352
How can you tell when a parallel isn't really there?

>>20780037
>the unobvious fact of our perspective being limited.

But the difference is that SubaHibi doesn't just show the being-in-the-world, but postulates the contours of how a non-being would look like, or, to use the Heideggerian terminology, a horizon, which, as you can clearly see by 終ノ空, is a transcendent object found within immanence. In other words it is not the limit, merely, that SubaHibi provides, but the givenness of the outer layer, which, to use the Wittgenstenian coinage, is silence. Thus 幸福に生きよ is not a hedonistic imperative, but, an existential one in the fullest sense of its essence. There is no Other, for the Other is included in the whole, represented by the multiple projections of Takuji, each one leading to a multiplicity of simulacra which is simultaneously real. That you have so obviously misread the thesis makes me question your ontological status as an analyst, for you have merely given the ontical formulation, or that which is present, and not what is hidden.

You retards would never be able to understand Subahibi on your own so I'll show you what the game is really about. No need to thank me for opening your eyes to the truth.

>>20780683
The problem with this is that Yuki is a girl, so she cant be the quintissential eroge protagonist.

>>20780732
deep inside we all want to be a cute and cool girl like Yuki

>>20780741
Too bad I don't know of a decent roof to read deep books from while quoting cool sounding sentences out loud and totally understanding the books on a deeper level as they relate to the story.

>>20780741
>>20780780
This made me think: did Yuki ever actually use any of the cool shit she read to actually understand what was going on around her on a meta-level? If not, how can the author expect us to give a shit if the apparently "smart" Minakami Yuki couldn't care less? If the characters in the story can't use these works to understand the meta-layer of their own world, why do some people here seem to believe that we as readers can gain a better understanding of the meta-layer over the sex game (our own world) by doing the same thing (reading the sex game)? Seems like a bunch of bullshit to me, if I'm being entirely honest. But maybe that's just me being uneducated in decoding deeper philosophical matters such as 「幸福に生きよ」 and 「Mon panache!」 in games by SCA-JI.

>>20780868
git gud skrub

>>20780868
She was the one who gave the Sunflowers dialogue so yes.

>>20780868
Since you're still on 4chan obviously you haven't understood yourself on a meta level.

>>20766112
Pretentious is just a word people use when something is generally held in high regard but they don't like it.

They don't want to feel like they have bad taste, a short attention span, etc... so they slap "pretentious" on it to turn it around on the rest and put themselves on a pedestal.

>>20781249
This. In SubaHibi's case, I honestly think they're just too stupid to understand the depths of SCA-JI's creative mind and his ability to use references and quotes from books to imbue the story with a deeper metatextual narrative such as Zakuro using Mon Panache when trying to garner the strength needed to defeat her evil bullies once and for all. If only Takuji could realize what his meta-existence truly entailed by reading a lot of Cyrano de Bergerac, then maybe we could have avoided the hour-long homo mouthrape scene. But then again, SCA-JI clearly saw it necessary to include the scene for purposes explained in >>>>20773359, so he wrote Takuji to be someone who didn't read Cyrano de Bergerac and didn't appreciate the deep insights hidden within. This further illustrates how Mon Panache ties into the structure of the text itself, thus making it a deep metatextual tool. I can't explain how Zakuro's use of Mon Panache still leads to her being gangraped though, but I'm sure there is a deeper reason for all of that.

>>20779725
If you follow the thread you are quoting you will see he admits he doesn't know Japanese and hasn't read SakuUta.
It might be the same dude who resorted to a more transparent attempt at shit posting further down the thread. Who knows. Who cares.

>>20781341
Pulling the intellectually deep meme is just that, a meme. There's no need to read the books referenced in the vn as those references already contain are all thats needed within the work.

To try and devalue a work by associating it with other works is just a means for some people to group it under "trying too hard", as well as just the opposite, for others to add more depth that isn't there. An example would be reading the Bible to get smaller details out of Evangelionand attain a better understanding, or reading the Flowers of Evil book for the manga/anime of the same name.

Anyone who pulls that card, either to disparage and mock or to glorify and praise, are the ones trying too hard, not the work itself.

>>20779787
>>20780037
>>20780627
>>20780868
>>20781341
I feel very bad for you. If perhaps you didn't hid yourself behind all these layers of shitposting maybe you would get more attention. It seems like you really need it.

Has anyone written an analysis on Shiroyama's character? I felt like there were hints to him having a very complex motivation and deep character, but I haven't read enough Wittgenstein yet to fully understand him. Any thoughts?

>>20781421
wrong guy, i don't know japanese. the other weirdo supposedly does, and may in fact be shitposting as we speak.

This thread is shit, just like all the opinions in it.

>>20781448
Nigga, that's retarded.
For authors who aren't themselves pretentious twits, the reason they reference philosophy and other works of fiction in their own writing is to get their readers to do precisely what you're calling 'trying too hard'. They want you to get invested enough in their story to engage with its themes to a greater extent. If you take an author up on that offer, only to discover that they were just trying to come off as smarter and more imporant than they really are, then you weren't being pretentious, you were cheated.
For instance, Madoka has almost nothing to do with Faust (even if you read Homu as Faust, making a deal with the devil and being redeemed by the divine feminine her character and motivations are completely different from Faust's, and there really isn't any justification for implying that one has any real relevance for the other), but Umineko does draw pretty heavily on the tradition of the mystery genre, and the seven deadly sins and other aspects of the divine comedy aren't just namedropped for the sake of rule of cool, but actually fit what R07 was trying to do with it thematically.

whip this thread

>>20781825
agreed, though on the subject of subahibi i think it doesn't throw out allusions just to pretend you can engage with it proper, there is real shit there. what do you think?

Just finished the Zakuro chapter, I just dismissed the "high-brow" references as gibberish that the author quoted to make the vn seem nonsensical, especially since these references are juxtaposed with hardcore anime hentai scenes which makes them seem even more laughable in hindsight.

The story/mystery itself is barely compelling and most of the characters are pretty one-dimensional. The one I can't stand the most is easily Oyana, awful character that just spouts unhelpful gibberish. And the worst part is the author places so much importance on this character without having actually built her into someone worth receiving such attention (like Kimika). Easily one of the worst characters I've experienced in a VN.

>>20782367
*Ayana, sorry

>>20780571
By writing for yourself and having a solid understanding of what authors think about, and forming an understanding of what elements are intentional and which are not.

>>20783618
Where's your book at mate? Give us a read.

>>20783618
After writing for myself I realized all elements are unintentional. A writer taps into the the collective unconscious so everything is parallel to everything else.

>>20781825
You seem to imply that the only way a reference is valid is if the work follows the reference in some way. Intertextuality, how we read, and how we derive meaning from works doesn't function like that. The process of 'justification' is completely subjective and all you reveal is your own biases.

>>20784388
I'm not going to reveal myself in this place for the sake of an argument, and even if I did, I could be the greatest author in the world and still expose myself to the classic "shit author, argument invalid" trick anyway. Instead, I'll just ask: Where's YOUR book?

>>20784498
Really can't tell if this is facetious or not. Writers obviously do intend some themes, but surely you've seen the amount of completely random shit that fans will dredge out of just about anything. The point isn't that nothing is intentional, it's just that it's incredibly easy for anyone to see things in a work that aren't there, and that this is amplified greatly by the sense of mysticism and awe that non-writers often have for their favourite authors.

>>20784602
>Intertextuality
Fuck off with the literary criticism buzzwords. If you want to argue that my understanding of fiction is flawed, lay out how you think meaning functions, and why that is incompatible with my views. Make an argument.

>>20784687
I tried writing a book in a dream once but all I could come up with was the word "Death" before I got distracted by a giant baphomet outside my window trying to get at my blackcurrent juice with his long tentacular sucker-cup finger.

>>20784498
Deep. I came to the same realization yesterday while listening to the SubaHibi OST on a roof while reading sentences from Jung. Are we the same person, by any chance?

>>20764870
It's shit compared to Subahibi though. Doesn't even have futa. All it has is everyone, including dogs and pigeons on the streets, quoting random philosophical shit with zero context whatsoever.

>>20784602
Agreed. The writer's job is merely fitting in enough references, jargon and deep-sounding unrelated quotes to make it clear to the reader that there is profound depth in the story. He doesn't have to make his intentions with the references (his intended interpretation) possible to deduce using the story itself, that's the reader's job. And if they can't do that, well, too bad, seems like they're just too stupid for the story and should try reading something made for more ``simple" people. The process of ``justification" being subjective clearly gives license to just not place any hints toward uncovering the author's own subjective ``justification" of the references used in their own work.
Because clearly, the non-existence of an objective ``justification" implies the non-existence of a ``preffered"/``canonical" subjective ``justification". This observation can be further studied by looking at the phenomenon I like to call ``meta-co-intertextuality", for reasons obvious to any smart person.

>>20784602
Agreed. The writer's job is merely fitting in enough references, jargon and deep-sounding unrelated quotes to make it clear to the reader that there is profound depth in the story. He doesn't have to make his intentions with the references (his intended interpretation) possible to deduce using the story itself, that's the reader's job. And if they can't do that, well, too bad, seems like they're just too stupid for the story and should try reading something made for more ``simple" people. The process of ``justification" being subjective clearly gives license to just not place any hints toward uncovering the author's own subjective ``justification" of the references used in their own work.
Because clearly, the non-existence of an objective ``justification" implies the non-existence of a ``preffered"/``canonical" subjective ``justification". This observation can be further studied by looking at the phenomenon I like to call ``meta-co-intertextuality", for reasons obvious to any smart person.

>>20785430
To add to this before someone memes me into oblivion: my understanding of deeper philosophical meaning of SnU is that there is simply no deeper philosophical meaning. It's a brilliant satire by Sca-Ji that jabs at "intellectuals", "eroge experts" and such and makes fun of them for trying to find these hidden messages when there aren't any. If you understood that, it's all well and good. If you didn't, your IQ is simply not high enough.

>>20784602
>For authors who aren't themselves pretentious twits, the reason they reference philosophy and other works of fiction in their own writing is to get their readers to do precisely what you're calling 'trying too hard'. They want you to get invested enough in their story to engage with its themes to a greater extent. If you take an author up on that offer, only to discover that they were just trying to come off as smarter and more imporant than they really are, then you weren't being pretentious, you were cheated.

Your statement here assumes a few things:

1. The themes a person can read into a story are homogenous and limited and if one is a 'right reader' he can uncover exactly those themes. (and this assumption applies to both the main text and the reference text)
2. A reference has no other function than as a recapitulation of the themes of the main text.

The first statement is obviously untrue. There's no way to read anything homogenous in any text- just like how Dostoyevsky thought he was making Christian works without realizing that they would be held as the first examples of existential literature decades later - and nobody sees Notes from the Underground as the satire Dosto thought it to be. Try to see if anyone can have a consensus on Nietzsche's themes as he's viewed as encompassing every range of the spectrum - from being a hardcore totalitarian to a hardcore individualist. Plato's Republic has been interpreted as both a vision of totalitarianism and a metaphor for a person's inner self. Then, there's the Bible itself, which has been co-opted by pretty much every single writer in the Western literary tradition for their own purposes, and many phrases have entered into the English language as phrases separate from their original text. With all this said, how can you claim a one to one relation between the themes of Text A and Text B?

Now, for statement two, why must a reference only be used thematically? There are many uses for a reference: aesthetics, personal interest, social value, to capture a milieu of the period - and, of course, these relations change completely over time. Shakespeare took plenty from historical sources and texts, which might have been obvious to the people of the time, but only Shakespeare scholars are aware of in modern days. Do people think of the original Romeo and Juliet when watching or reading Shakespeare's version? Not to mention he turned away from the moralistic message of the original and made one of the greatest love plays of all time in the process - so do we think of Shakespeare as a 'cheat' for going in a different direction from the original work? Herman Hesse's Siddharta sketches out a simplified version of Buddhism, but his narrative is so precise and his prose so beautiful that it has its own value. If someone uses "brevity is the soul of wit" in a text, which has become a saying in the English language, must they make reference to the fact that Shakespeare was placing it in the mouth of a circumlocutious character and it has an ironic effect? Sometimes, poetic quotes can be used because they are merely beautiful and fit the scene aesthetically.

>>20785744
(cont)

>For instance, Madoka has almost nothing to do with Faust (even if you read Homu as Faust, making a deal with the devil and being redeemed by the divine feminine her character and motivations are completely different from Faust's, and there really isn't any justification for implying that one has any real relevance for the other)

And does Goethe's Faust, especially by the time part 2 comes around, sync completely with the character and motivations of the Faust depicted in Germanic culture and folklore? Probably not - Goethe added his own personality and motivations into the work, like how Marlowe's version, and Švankmajer's version, and Murnau's version etc... develop the Faust myth in totally different directions depending on place, period, and culture. There is no homogenous Faust, and a person quoting Goethe's poem can do so to invoke the entire Faustian milieu, of which it is now a part of, rather than Goethe's specific version.

Also, why do you look at its usage in Madoka merely on the narrative plane? Gekidan Inu Curry's art style is invokes a lot of European aesthetics and symbology, and the quotes sync in continuum with the aesthetics. Goethe himself, like Shakespeare, has a lot of phrases and quotes entered into the German culture, probably used by German people who are not Goethe scholars. The usage could be cultural - Japan and Germany have a past together after all, and tons of anime or Japanese works are influenced by German Literature. Why are you only looking at it from one angle?

What effects can references have even if the authors profess not to understand the original sources? Evangelion's creators admitted that they were using Christian or Mystic symbology for aesthetic effects, but if you look at the force of the usage and grim power of the animation as it appears in End of Evangelion, it does invoke something larger than just thematic recapitulation. It fits the work perfectly at invoking a larger alien presence coming in contact with humanity. Dali made use of Christian symbols in his own paintings and he did it by drawing on his dreams - he was probably not as well-versed in the Bible as a theologian - does that reduce the quality of the art and the uniquity of his vision?

In other words, you have to answer these two questions:

On what grounds can you establish a homogenous 'theme' that a work is supposedly aiming for, which the work referenced is supposed to sync with in its own 'theme' as well?
Why must a reference or a quotation merely be used as hooks for readers to 'engage with themes to a greater extent'? Why do you deny all other usages of reference or quotation?

>>20785752
This is some deep stuff right there. Pretty sure most of this was alluded to in It's My Own Invention.

>>20785902
Actually it was alluded to in SnU

>>20785492
If you believe in subjectivity, you wouldn't say these statements:

>The writer's job is merely fitting in enough references, jargon and deep-sounding unrelated quotes to make it clear to the reader that there is profound depth in the story

That implies you can know what a writer's 'job' is with any text. Dante could have written the Divine Comedy because he wanted to include Beatrice in his Bible fanfiction - and somehow the text became essential in developing Italian as a language.

>He doesn't have to make his intentions with the references (his intended interpretation) possible to deduce using the story itself, that's the reader's job

That implies that the reader is still searching for an ideal interpretation, rather than building his own interpretation.

>And if they can't do that, well, too bad, seems like they're just too stupid for the story and should try reading something made for more ``simple" people.

That implies, once again, that a person who fails to find an interpretation is somehow lesser than a person who manages to find one, which implies an objective scale of valuation and not a subjective one.

> the non-existence of an objective ``justification" implies the non-existence of a ``preffered"/``canonical" subjective ``justification".

Yes, exactly. There is no 'preferred/canonical' subjective interpretation. It is a plain impossibility to find one. Ask 100 scholars about their interpretation of Hamlet and you'll get completely different answers. Ask 100 more scholars from different cultures and you'll get even more differing answers.

>>20785744
Based and /lit/pilled. Even a complete misunderstanding of a philosopher is a valid interpretation because hey, who wants to actually take accountability for their interpretations being true or false? We can all feel much more intellectual if we just put words in an author's mouth and call it a day.

>>20786199
Sure, I'll take accountability if you can resurrect Nietzsche, Plato, or whoever wrote the Bible, and have them clarify what they meant, or if you have a method of finding out what interpretations are 'true' and 'false' in the first place.

Or are you just going to try and jab from the sidelines without going into specifics?

>>20786139
>there is no 'preferred/canonical' subjective interpretation.
This. It's not like you can literally _define_ it to be the author's interpretation of his own work at the time he wrote it. There are immediate issues with the definition, such as you not being able to prove that the author even thought something while writing his work and that it wasn't just created by random chance. A very insightful observation indeed... I'm truly thinking about this game right now...
>That implies you can know what a writer's 'job' is with any text.
True. We can't be certain about there being some implied ``job" in the word ``writer" itself. This is also a pretty insightful observation, actually. Something similar was mentioned by Otonashi Ayana during the End Sky 2 ending.
>That implies that the reader is still searching for an ideal interpretation, rather than building his own interpretation.
Yeah, building your own interpretation is only possible while completely ignoring everyone else's, especially the author's. This fact reflects the deep quotes about the internal word in DrH1, thus making these quotes ascend to a metatextual layer of the game and its deeper hidden narrative itself (which of course provably exists as shown by Otonashi Ayana's character being mysterious and deep).
>It is a plain impossibility to find one
Indeed, what if you ask the writer directly and he just lies to you instead of telling the truth. We can never be sure of what we truly know and/or not know. This is a basic philosophical fact most master intellectuals have reached within their lifetime, SCA-JI included, naturally. That being said, I'm really looking forward to Sakura No Toki to deeply and subtly subvert all of what he was talking about to deliver a deeper metapoint about eroge and how we as humans use our internal world to truly understand them on more than just a textual level.

>>20786274
You are making a very intellectual point here. We can never know what is truly false and/or truly true, nor can we define and prove the unique existence of an interpretation useable as a baseline/reference point. I remember sitting on a roof and reading a quote about this from some book. This made me truly believe at last that trying to understand other people's thoughts is truly futile.

>>20786282
>This. It's not like you can literally _define_ it to be the author's interpretation of his own work at the time he wrote it. There are immediate issues with the definition, such as you not being able to prove that the author even thought something while writing his work and that it wasn't just created by random chance. A very insightful observation indeed... I'm truly thinking about this game right now...

Exactly! Just think about poor Dostoyevsky. He thought his book was going to be a satire on the philosophies he hated at the time - only for it to be championed as a work of existential literature by most who read it over the next century! You have truly grasped the core of what I was trying to say.

>Yeah, building your own interpretation is only possible while completely ignoring everyone else's, especially the author's. This fact reflects the deep quotes about the internal word in DrH1, thus making these quotes ascend to a metatextual layer of the game and its deeper hidden narrative itself (which of course provably exists as shown by Otonashi Ayana's character being mysterious and deep).

Oh - not at all, not at all. One's interpretation does not have to be built from ignorance - that implies there is a single route to reading things! Isn't that a sign of the Objectivity we so hate? I think you have to spend more time reading books and interpretations, since you have not fully embraced the mupliticities of meanings!

>Indeed, what if you ask the writer directly and he just lies to you instead of telling the truth. We can never be sure of what we truly know and/or not know. This is a basic philosophical fact most master intellectuals have reached within their lifetime, SCA-JI included, naturally. That being said, I'm really looking forward to Sakura No Toki to deeply and subtly subvert all of what he was talking about to deliver a deeper metapoint about eroge and how we as humans use our internal world to truly understand them on more than just a textual level.

Exactly! Just look at J.K. Rowling and her admission that Dumbledore is a homosexual - we cannot know whether she is lying or telling the truth, so the only thing we can do is to have this side-text supplement the main text as a part of our interpretation, and we can choose whether to reject it or not for our own interpretation! Isn't that beautiful?

I too am looking forward to Sakura no Toki, and I hope you have mastered the art of subjectivity by the time it comes out so that we can pour over the text together and come up with interpretations and exchange them and understand each other as unique beings with unique subjectivities.

>>20786317
>This made me truly believe at last that trying to understand other people's thoughts is truly futile.

That's exactly what I was thinking as well. For example, just a few seconds ago when reading this, I had the thought in my head "anon is a faggot who likes to suck big black cocks and take them up his ass" - but I realized that there was no way I could verify that. All I have is the evidence that he's on 4chan with nothing better to do than to ironically shitpost across paragraphs and paragraphs, indicating that he must be a faggy beta male incel who doesn't have any unique thoughts of his own. However, I realized that that's just my interpretation based on what comes from the text. Who am I to come up with that conclusion about anon? He could very easily be a top investor or businessman who helps out with the community on weekends, or he could be an academic furthering his field of study, or someone else who is not wasting his time and brain cells on 4chan. Alas, we must always remember how limited and flawed our vision of reality is. I am glad you are slowly realizing this trut... Oh, sorry! I didn't mean 'truth', but I meant 'view' of the world.

>>20786356
>Exactly! Just think about poor Dostoyevsky. He thought his book was going to be a satire on the philosophies he hated at the time - only for it to be championed as a work of existential literature by most who read it over the next century! You have truly grasped the core of what I was trying to say.
I remember my mother reading this to me from a quotebook on a roof somewhere under the End Sky when I was a kid. At the time, I thought she was merely lying to me, but later I realized that it was actually a deeper and more intricate ``truth" (I will use quotations from here on out since we can't ``truly" be sure of that). This made me realize even at a younger age, that I want to read something like Subarashiki Hibi or Sakura No Uta to ``truly" change my life in the future by understanding the non-existence, or should I say the non-provability of the existence of any one uniquely (up to unique equivalence) definable interpretation of any particular text/work of art. I still ``truly" remember and understand the lesson she taught me that day.
>Oh - not at all, not at all. One's interpretation does not have to be built from ignorance - that implies there is a single route to reading things! Isn't that a sign of the Objectivity we so hate? I think you have to spend more time reading books and interpretations, since you have not fully embraced the mupliticities of meanings!
This is where we seem to disagree, but that's merely on a surface level/first reading. The full meta-explanation would be that we are actually unable to see each other's inner worlds for what they are, i.e. different interpretations of a same non-existent ``objective" intent/interpretation placed into a story by the ``writer". This, i.e. the non-provability of the existence of the ``author's mind" itself, is the final and deepest ``truth" we will ever able to reach regarding Subarashiki Hibi and Otonashi Ayana herself. Maybe Sakura no Toki will change that. In fact, I hope it does, since then we'll be amazed (yet again) at how masterfully SCA-JI can craft works with such a great hidden-in-plain-sight meta-meaning.
>we cannot know whether she is lying or telling the truth, so the only thing we can do is to have this side-text supplement the main text as a part of our interpretation, and we can choose whether to reject it or not for our own interpretation! Isn't that beautiful?
Precisely. This was even directly (in a SCA-JI kind of way) stated when Takuji confronts Otonashi Ayana on the school rooftop. I'm glad that other readers have understood the ``true" meta-text hidden in her entire dialogue in the futa scene.

>I too am looking forward to Sakura no Toki, and I hope you have mastered the art of subjectivity by the time it comes out so that we can pour over the text together and come up with interpretations and exchange them and understand each other as unique beings with unique subjectivities.
I would like to read it alone and think about for a while on some abandoned rooftop in my city before I share my deep and valuable thoughts coming directly from my inner world with someone else, even if it's someone who has attained an in-depth more than a bird's-eye view and understanding of Subarashiki Hibi. Once I have my subjective ``truth" ready, I'm sure we will be able to discuss the hidden meanings present in Sakura no Toki. I too deeply look forward to this discussion.

「幸福に生きよ！」- SCA-JI.

>>20786492
Autism

>>20759550
To be fair, I personally separate my life to pre-Subahibi and post-Subahibi periods, as reading it has completely changed how I view the world. Maybe read till Jabberwocky 2 and then make your decision? You should really give this VN a chance.

>>20786274
Nigga, you're clearly too naive to defend your own position. Even if we literally resurrected Plato that doesn't bridge the gap between 1) the writer and his work and 2) the writer at the time of writing the book we want to ask him about vs who he is now 3) language as they use it vs how we use it.
All PoMo has ever really amounted to is this one simple obeservation, that, no matter how many pieces of evidence you pile on top of each other, how well you establish a context as 'by far the most plausible way to look at situation x', reasoning can only ever *approach* certainty, and as new pieces of evidence and new horizons of understanding are discovered, what appeared to be an eternal truth can be re-contextualized as (most of the time) being only sort of right, and (sometimes) being a complete misunderstanding.
That does not, however, get rid of the structural necessity of a transcendental centre that informs the movement of this understanding. If you pretend that that doesn't exist, then you can't make any plausible arguments against it anymore. Without 'truth' your arguments themselves collapse in on themselves.

>>20785744
1. The themes a person can 'read into' a book written in a language they understand, a randomly generated pile of word salad and a blank page are the same, if their head is far up enough their own ass that they aren't really engaging with anything they encounter, and just use it to endlessly masturbate over the majesty of their own subjectivity. The rest of us read books precisely because we want a more limited experience, we want to encounter a text as something specific, distinct from other texts. If literature were unable to provide this, then we'd be staring at blank pages all day instead.
2. define aesthetics, making a reference to something out of personal interest when it has no relation to your thematic vision of a work of art is called a tangent, if an author actually explores their personal interests in a literary fashion in a way that's meaningful to the reader that can no longer be called just a reference, when something is referenced for its perceived social value in a work of fiction that's a good sign you may be reading propaganda, and when a writer devotes time to describing furniture, popular operas and clothing styles to capture a milieu of a period you have to ask why they feel the need to do that - is it important for understanding the characters and their circumstances, or is it just there to fill up pages?

> just like how Dostoyevsky thought he was making Christian works without realizing that they would be held as the first examples of existential literature decades later
Just like Kierkegaard was an existentialist and therefore his work isn't Christian!

>>20786825
most autistic thing I've read this year, congrats.

>>20787599
How is me sharing my emotions with people autistic? I thought autists had trouble with empathy and the like. Subahibi really did change the way I view the world.

>>20780627
You're laughing really hard while writing this kind of shit aren't you?

>>20780627
this, but unironically

>>20780627
this, but ironically

To put it very simply, SCA-Ji is far more intelligent than anyone reading this thread, including myself. There are a great deal of very high level concepts in SubaHibi and any aspiring reader is going to need to accept that he probably doesn’t understand it all. From there, you reach the point of actually researching and interpreting all this shit, which could take years, honestly. And then you also have to consider that the vast majority of people just don’t have the level of reading comprehension or education necessary to really start to approach interpreting and understanding SubaHibi on anything but a surface level.

I was recently engaged in intellectual thoughts about Subahibi and I wondered... What is the dog rape scene truly a metaphor for? I'm thinking it has something to do with Ayana's deep characterization, but I don't have a formal education in philosophy and so I don't understand the game well enough to state this with certainty.

>>20789170
If you play Bloodborne it might give you some ideas about this, from the higher planes.

>>20789170
main problem with philosophy is that you have to understand the formation of the problems. You might want to read only Wittgenstein, but that'd be a mistake. So at least read Plato, Descartes, Hume, Locke, Spinoza, Peterson, Kant, Hegel, Frege, Russell, then Wittgenstein, then you can try to understand dog rape.
Also this >>20789170

>>20788893
Copypaste my nuts to your forehead, moogster

Place

for reading deeps books under the sky.

>>20759550
Because unlike you, other people can enjoy dumb fun.

>>20797724
Please don't call such a life-changing VN "dumb fun".

My only complains about this VN is that there are LOADS of porn scenes but none of the girls have hairy pussies.

Like seriously, what the fuck? It makes them unfappable. Only Hasaki should be bald down there.

>>20799844
extremely valid complaint

>>20799844
Isn't Hasaki supposed to be like 13 or something?

>>20800297
Hasaki is 18, but she looks younger due to being malnourished and the Mamiya genes making you appear younger than you really are.

It's a fancy way of getting past the underage rating.

>>20759550
Everything aside from My Own Invention is trash.

>>20759550
I was going to read it until I looked it up and saw it had bestiality.

>>20801888
it an extremely short scene, like not even a minute, and its played as fucked up

>>20801321
you're just having a giggle, right?

>>20760959
fuck off never insult wittgenstein with a shitty porn game, it's cringe when porn writer use famous works to quote something

>>20760959
fuck off never insult subahibi with a shitty nitwit philosocuck, it's cringe when people mistake original and creative ideas as inspired by some old dead faggot's quotes

>>20802356
fuck off never insult anon by confusing him with some shitty nitwit philosocuck he happens to be quoting, it's cringe when people mistake some old dead faggot's quotes with the original and creative ideas of anon.

>>20801321
She should have a hairy pussy if she's 13. I can buy the other sluts shaving, but not Hasaki.

>>20800297
I think she's 11.

>>20799844
The karaoke humiliation scene would be WAY too lewd if Zakuro had a hairy pussy. It would make me root for the bullies and ruin the story.

>>20802500
It's pretty pathetic that Zakuro is old enough to have pubes and yet gets degraded by people of her same age. What a failure as a human being!

All these satire posts are getting to me so much that I'm legitimately wondering if that big original r*ddit post that comes up whenever you google the game was actually a joke as well.

It had a lot of interesting stuff in it but it was really hard for me to sit through the hours-long rape scenes. Never seen such long rape scenes in a game before. That aside I didn't finish it, I got through the sixth chapter or so but at that point I was done. Might finish it later but I feel like if I just pick it back up from where I left off then I won't get much out of the last 2 chapters.

Subahibi is deep sure sure but what was the point of the long-ass scene where the teacher runs around naked and tripping balls and then (iirc) has sex with a bunch of random strangers?

>>20803818
>Never seen such long rape scenes in a game before.
That's because even in Subarashiki Hibi SCA-JI is already deeply concerned with the deep theme of life imitating art and vice versa. Just think about it, if you're a complex bully character in an eroge, would you ever want to just ejaculate quickly and not keep having the genuine fun you experience while raping someone for hours on end due to your inherent depth as a character? Of course not. This is precisely what SCA-JI understood and this is the reason for the length of most H-scenes. It's just what time truly feels like for characters on both ends of the suffering and this fact is used to great extents as a meta-textual tool. Something like this was already clarified in this thread.
But like with all of SCA-JI's work, we cannot just stop here, as there is a second deeper layer hidden somewhere nearby. If we take this second deeper view on the matter, we can easily see that this meaningfully used quote refers to how even the meta-act of discussing SCA-JI's works of art is blatantly a case of life imitating art. Thus we are immediately forced to conclude that any potential criticism of SCA-JI's work is self-contradictory in nature, since to criticize SCA-JI is to imitiate him. So the length of the rape scenes is easily seen to be both a meta-textual and a meta-meta-textual tool to deliver a very powerful message using the deep and limited perspective of the individual characters (us readers in the real world) and the individual bullies (complex and multifaceted writers in the real world).

>>20803846
It's not merely deep, it's profound. See the above message.

Does anyone else here ever scream out "Mon panache!" to themselves throughout the day as a way of gaining the courage necessary to live in a world where nobody around you is artistic enough to truly appreciate games like Subahibi and Saku no Uta?

>>20802452
Japanese girls are still flat and smooth even at that age.

>>20780037
I find it easy to believe, that you write actual academic papers with the same attitude with which you are shitposting on /jp/, and that your peers take what you know to be vapid, meaningless word salad for Intellectual rigor, that you have been told by your professors on many occasions that 'your work shows real promise, anon', and been offered quite a few opportunities to publish your "work" to get yourself established in the academic sphere.

>>20806378
isn't that just like subahibi though?

>>20806468
except subahibi isn't nearly as self-aware

What was the symbolism behind choosing which one of Kimika's holes to use?

>>20806897
vag = light side
butt = dark side

>>20806897
The ass is the better option because all humans have asses. If you fuck her in the ass, you are exposing her human condition. If you fuck her pussy, you are allowing her to have some dignity because not all humans have one of those.

>>20806897
Mamiya literally says in the next line after you choose that he's so far gone that even inconsequential stupid shit like this is appearing in front of him like a choice in an eroge.

>>20807810
I think that's a line meant to divert the lazy reader from actually thinking about the symbolism.

>>20806897
now that was the real pleb filter of the VN. Very few people might have understood it, since it could be considered as the apex of sca-ji's deconstruction of the genre. You have a crude choice - ass or pussy? - alongside its immediate metatextual subversion : the mc (player) think he is in an eroge (while, in fact, you are playing an eroge).

Does Kimika deserve humiliation?

>>20811037
She does.

>>20811037
No.

>>20811037
Maybe.

>>20811037
I don't know.

>>20813597
>>20813654
>>20813750
Fuck off malcolmfags the first person didn't even say "Yes."

>>20813819
Okay

>>20814556
Not Okay

>>20802310
>wittgenstein
>famous
cringe

>>20802310
>>20814779
>cringe
blench

Just read Fata Morgana instead. Superior kamige

>>20815350
So it namedrops philosophers even more often? Seems like a pretty good game indeed. I'll check it out for sure.

>>20811037
nope

>>20807810
>inconsequential stupid shit
How is getting Kimika's shit on your dick inconsequential?

.

>>20821496
This post is very un-Subahibi-like. Why be concise and have a point when you just can ramble on while quoting straight from real-life books?

Kimika is hella pathetic.