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/jp/ - Otaku Culture


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20706727 No.20706727 [Reply] [Original]

This is for those who have developed a basic understanding for Japanese and can manage through anime/manga/games, even if they have to rely on dictionaries. I'll try to keep it brief:

Is is worth it for me to keep trying to learn Japanese? I've done it probably for probably close to two years now. I've gone through all the concepts in Genki while learning the sentences and vocabulary in the chapter along with many supplementary sentences and vocabulary, and now that I see that I'm completely lost even approaching the simplest of Japanese, I'm making sure, (with Anki), that I can fluently read, and hear every sentence in Genki, as long as every vocabulary word that I think I will come across. This is just to give you an idea of my progress. If it's of any importance, I'm only trying to learn how to develop a fluency for hearing and reading Japanese, and not to write or speak it, as I have no desire to communicate with those who speak Japanese. I think this would be compensated by increasing my vocabulary and becoming more familiar with the words I know.

My motive: I really love Japanese games, but I feel a sense of mental atrophy as I play them, and I'm hoping that the challenge of trying to play them in a foreign language while trying to understand everything will make them more engaging. Same basic principle applies to anime, but I dislike dubs, and I don't like having to read subtitles when I rather pay attention to the screen.

Any remarks about whether learning Japanese was worth it for you, or whether you think it would be worth it in my position. I understand I'm sure that I gave you an incomplete picture of my circumstances and motives, but any advice on this matter would be appreciated.

>> No.20706761

It occurs to me now that I perhaps should posted this in /int/, as reviewing the board after I posted the thread shows none of the Japanese learning thread I expected, nor did I see any indication that a sizable portion of the anons here are fluent in the language.

>> No.20706815

So what is your problem exactly

>> No.20706846

>>20706815
I'm not sure if it's worth it. It could be that I could spend the numerous hours devoting to Japanese that I could devote to something something. For instance, if I spend all that time trying to learn Japanese, and the end result is that it's not worth it.
For example, it's like if I really like reading a certain type of novel, and then I feel the mental atrophy, so my response is to read the work upside down, which I'm sure is not equivalent to reading things in their original language. This would make the process more "engaging," but I don't think it would ultimately be more satisfying.
In regards to Japanese, there might be an elevation to the material, and it will become more engaging, but not enough to justify the labor to acquire the language merely for this purpose.
That is my problem.

>> No.20706908

Would I have learned Japanese just to understand anime?
I’m not sure, really.

Would I have learned Japanese for the sake of all of the following?

[LIST]
[*]console games
[*]Windows games
[*]anime
[*]drama CDs
[*]net radio shows
[*]doujin/indie works
[*]song lyrics from music from of all of the above
[*]manga
[*]magazines, everything from news content to comic/novel serialization
[*]novellas, light novels, and novelizations
[*]non-fiction essay books, biographies, otaku culture commentary books, art books w/interviews, guide books, etc.
[*]every miscellaneous little bonus item attached to all of the above
[*]effortless navigation of Japanese online stores, including official download sale sites and streaming rental sites (Heck, I could go on for pages about all the stuff available on official Japanese download/streaming sales/rental sites. Describing the volume available on English language sites like Hulu/Joost/Crunchyroll or iTunes U.S.A. as “sparse” in comparison would be a serious understatement.)
[*]official websites/blogs
[*]the ability to write fan letters to authors/artists/actors/whoever, to write emails to radio shows and have them read on air (Thanks, Momoi!)
[*]the entire Japanese online fan community, everything from blogs to Niconico to 2ch—as a participant, not an observer
[*]etc. etc. etc.
[/LIST]

HELL YES. I would, and I did. That was 15 years ago when I really got started, and it was the best thing I ever did. Also wound up falling into making my living as a translator as a side-effect.

>> No.20706915

It’s difficult to even put into words just how much anime/comic/game/character related stuff is produced every single month in Japan. Hundreds upon hundreds of magazines, books, and comics, dozens of BD/DVDs, CDs, and games. Weekly net radio shows. Countless official website updates and creator/VA blogs. I keep trying to write a small summary and every time it balloons into pages of text to cover it all. Maybe photos of the inside of Akihabara stores would be better way to express the scale. Only the tiniest fraction of that will ever wind up translated into other languages. If you don’t know Japanese, not only will you never get to experience the remainder, you’re unlikely to even learn of its existence.

And so much of it is interconnected. One single property will have an anime, two novels, three manga series, a couple of video games, a side-story novella running in one magazine, a 4-panel comic running in another magazine, an official blog, video interviews with creators and VAs posted on animate.tv, an adventure game for Windows downloadable from the website if you enter the serial number found on vol. 3 of the character song CD series. If you know Japanese, you’re never starved for more material related to your favorite story and characters—you’ll be drowning in it. Even more importantly than that, if you like one thing by a particular creator, you can easily explore that creator's other works—no "whoops his other stuff isn't translated, too bad."

At a fundamental level, any time anyone in any way associated with making the stuff you like speaks or writes anything at all, they’re creating more Japanese that would have to be translated for you.

>> No.20706918

Oh, and the size of the Japanese online fan community! That “obscure" manga author that no one else on your favorite English forum has heard of has a thread on 2ch dedicated to him containing 17,000 posts and counting. You don’t go “hunting” for fellow fans of a particular work on the Japanese side of the net—you simply take it for granted they exist. (That’s a bit of an exaggeration, but the hundreds of thousands of posts per day made to 2ch’s anime/comic/game related boards is not. Not to mention the Japanese blogosphere...)

And of course, with that massive fanbase comes the massive doujin world—500,000 people visit Comic Market twice a year. Even the San Diego Comic Con (126,000) doesn’t come close to that, and conventions like Anime Expo (43,000) are even smaller.
That’s a whole other universe of creativity in itself.

If you have more than a passing interest in the bigger picture of the creative subcultures and media-mixes intertwined with animation, comics, games, and character-culture in Japan—and especially if you want to connect with the human beings involved, both creators and fans—becoming fluent in the language will completely change your world.

>> No.20706951

>>20706846
Well what else are you gonna do? If you actually have something else going on then sure, the oppurtunity cost might be too high. If you are sitting around jerking off and playing video games all day then go ahead continue learning.

Part of the reason I started learning japanese was because I was depressed and needed something productive to do. Was there something better I could have spent my time on? Sure, probably. Do I regret any of the time I have spent learning japanese? No.

Btw, I didn't only learn japanese. I learned a lot about the importance of proper studying too. Before Japanese I had literally never properly studied before in my life. Even if the japanese is worthless that lesson will pay off.

>> No.20706954

>>20706908
Thank you for very much for the advice and I mean to take it all to heart. Undoubtedly, I would be better off if I could consume all these materials, and better off still if I wanted to. The issue is that I'm not that interested in consuming written and spoken Japanese content, (whether it's games, manga, songs, blogs posts, etc., etc.), after it's translated. While having more options for content not locked behind a language I'm unfamiliar with would be better, the issue has less to due to a lack of options, of quantity of material, but that I find something lacking beyond the visual aspect of this content, at least after it's translated, which I am hoping would change if I were to learn the language.
Your posts are extremely informative and did give me a larger sense of how much content there is out there that is not localized for English speakers, but I'm largely more interested in how much more different the experience is when you consume Japanese content prior to localization, and I would be very interested in what you have to say on this difference, or whether it could provide what I'm looking for.
I understand that my interest in learning the language is somewhat nuanced and unique, but I can't say for certain whether or not my motive is strong enough for the effort that is still required.
Again, any advice you have to say on this head will be appreciated, just I appreciate what you've written so far.

I have no idea what the purpose of all those formatting tags were for. Did you mean for your posts to look like this?

>> No.20706979

>>20706954
It's pasta from some old forum post
Looks like it was copied from an editor pane instead of the final posted text

>> No.20706993

>>20706951
> If you are sitting around jerking off and playing video games all day then go ahead continue learning.
Well, one thing I like about Japanese learning is that even if it's no easy per se, it's about a subject that interests me, and only requires my phone. I can also track the manner in which I am learning the language, at least based on my Anki cards, statistics on how well I'm able to answer them, which might not be the most efficient way to learn the language, but I think I've made a lot of progress, (though it seems like I've accomplished nothing any time I see any Japanese text not meant for fluent speakers).
I probably should have said that my question was also for those who tried and gave up, and to ask for their reasons, a group of people I have little doubt are legion on this board.
>Before Japanese I had literally never properly studied before in my life. Even if the Japanese is worthless that lesson will pay off.
True is true for me. The problem is that up I see only a need to rely on what study materials have been made by other people, meaning I'm not really prepared to study most other subjects unless they're languages.
Still, I'm actually not depressed and don't need something productive to do: there are productive things I should be doing to some extent, (not urgent, but still important), that I should be doing, but I don't do because other things are more enjoyable, like studying Japanese, which is still enjoyable, but becomes less so the more I question whether I will ever actually be partially fluent in the language, or whether it's even worth the effort.
Thank you for the reply. If you have become able to read untranslated Japanese, any comments as to how it compares with reading translated Japanese would be appreciated.
>>20706979
Oh. I thought that was a possibility, but then searched it in Google, and found nothing, which I thought suggested it was original, despite the puzzling tags, and, eager as I am for advice, didn't want to miss the opportunity of seriously responding and possibly getting more feedback.

>> No.20706999

>>20706908
Best comment I have read on /jp/ in a very long time.

>> No.20707058

I love how warosu accepts some formatting tags
>>/jp/thread/20706727

>> No.20707069

if you have to ask, then probably not. just be aware that the most interesting japanese media is the stuff that is too niche to ever get translated, and the average translation quality of japanese games, manga, anime, etc., is disturbingly poor, even in an era where most of those translations are officially sanctioned.

>> No.20707112

>>20707069
>the most interesting japanese media is the stuff that is too niche to ever get translated
Can you give an example, or examples?
>average translation quality of japanese games, manga, anime, etc., is disturbingly poor
Is it so poor that if one could fluently read most Japanese content before localization, one would have a higher opinion of it? I say this because the dialogue and narration of most Japanese content to be quite poor after localization, but am I still attracted to the visuals and the ideas behind them, yet still have issues with translations.

>> No.20707162

>>20706993
>(though it seems like I've accomplished nothing any time I see any Japanese text not meant for fluent speakers).
It took me about 4 years before I could read the simplest text (manga, children's books) and another 2 years before I even had a chance at reading, say, newspapers or LNs

>>20707069
>the average translation quality of japanese games, manga, anime, etc., is disturbingly poor
Whenever I read something (poorly) translated to English from Japanese, I like to play a game I call "guess the original wording." I'm not talking about easy stuff like "It can't be helped" but certain phrases and quirks of wording that give away that you're reading a translation. This is ridiculously easy to do with fansubs and manga scanlations. It gets harder with official translations that have more editing put into them, but it shows you the quality of most translations that it doesn't feel like natural English. The only really good translations I've read are of serious literature, most of which were translated by experienced, non-weeb translators who would make good writers on their own.

>>20707112
>Is it so poor that if one could fluently read most Japanese content before localization, one would have a higher opinion of it?
That really depends on the medium of the work. For manga, video games, and anime usually not since there are visual (and audio) components that can make up for a poor translation.
For literature, VNs, and light novels, definitely. Most VNs and LNs, even if they have an official translation, have an atrocious translation. Actual literature tends to fare much better.

>I say this because the dialogue and narration of most Japanese content to be quite poor after localization
Dialogue is usually better in the original Japanese because of the different styles of speech that are often collapsed together in translation.
Narration in LNs and VNs is usually trash no matter what language it's in, but that's just an opinion of mine.

>> No.20707179

>>20707112
>one would have a higher opinion of it
Not that anon, and not sure if you'd have a higher opinion of it, but you miss out on a lot of things when translated, like the nuances in how different characters talk.

I did basic grammar study at first, and then mainly just lots of VN reading with anki on the side. Used a text hooker for the first half dozen VNs, and then didn't need it after that. I think focusing too much on studying example sentences or grammar structures is a pitfall and you should just jump into reading, learning along the way.

>> No.20707235

>>20707162
>It took me about 4 years before I could read the simplest text (manga, children's books) and another 2 years before I even had a chance at reading, say, newspapers or LNs
If learned that slowly, I would conclude that it's because I was somehow learning the wrong way. However, I've heard similar things from other people, so I suppose I have to humble myself in my capacity to learn this language, and temper my hopes for the rate my acquisition.

>For literature, VNs, and light novels
I would say, in the translators' defense, there is less demand for this type of Japanese content, which would explain why it's poorly translated, if, in theory, it should be easier.

>>20707179
Okay. I'll probably make some attempt to look at native content, as terrifying as it seems. I'm not entirely convinced that I should not rely on my textbook as long as I'm learning things from it, which am, like becoming able to fluently read and hear every sentence that Genki offers, (hearing the sentences read using very good text-to-speech software). I was also totally unaware of what a text hooker was, and I will also consider using it.

What I'm taking most away from this thread, (and the posts I made on /int/), is that learning Japanese is extraordinarily harder than I thought it was, that people do say there's a definite loss of inherent quality with the translation, that I shouldn't rely so much on the textbook, and that, most importantly, nobody has come to regret their Japanese study, which was my main concern.

>> No.20707254

>>20707235
>If learned that slowly, I would conclude that it's because I was somehow learning the wrong way. However, I've heard similar things from other people, so I suppose I have to humble myself in my capacity to learn this language, and temper my hopes for the rate my acquisition.
No, that anon learned way, way too slow. I assume he probably didn't really study/practice regularly was just off and on for many years. It doesn't take that long to build up a decent base for reading simple things.

>> No.20707269

>>20707254
>It doesn't take that long to build up a decent base for reading simple things.
Can you give an estimate, perhaps based on your own experience?

>> No.20707289

>>20707269
I read Yotsuba after like 1-2 months. You might be faster or slower.

>> No.20707299

>>20707289
While I'm not very familiar with the comic, or what level of proficiency in Japanese would be required to read it, I can say with fair certainty that, up until now at least, I have been much slower.
Indeed, this I think is generally faster than what other people experience in their Japanese learning. Was there anything unique to your methods that you can name?

>> No.20707328

>>20707299
>what level of proficiency in Japanese would be required to read it
It's extremely basic and simple. All you need is kana, a tiny amount of super common kanji, and basic grammar.

>Was there anything unique to your methods that you can name?
Not really. I just started reading after I felt I had memorized enough words in Anki (don't remember the exact amount; it was an arbitrary number) and had briefly read through Tae Kim's grammar guide.

>> No.20707330

>>20707112
my medium of choice for fiction these days is eroge, specifically because of how unusual the stories can be, and a quick look at vndb will tell you that over 90% of them aren't translated. some of the very most interesting i've played, like mushi no me, chronobox, and momiji, are doujin games that are unlikely to be licensed for legal reasons. other great ones like oretsuba or ruitomo aren't very well known in the west despite being considered classics by japanese players, and so aren't likely to be high up on any list of things that localization companies want to license. even more get completely mangled by shitty translations, like cross channel (which has 3 separate english translations that are all completely unacceptable in different ways) and dangan ronpa (please don't make fun of my taste).
about the quality of the text, i can say that when i couldn't read any japanese, i hated light novels because i thought they all had no flavor to their prose and just read like screenplays for future anime adaptations. for some, that's still true in japanese, but equally often, it's because the person that translated it has no idea how to write english that preserves any stylistic qualities of the original text or flows naturally at all. that's not even getting into how littered with errors things like that can be.

>> No.20707511

>>20707328
Well, I can only say there is something far more efficient in your methods or level of assiduity compared to mine, or your capacity to learn languages is superior. Surely, if you have heard how much effort others have put into learning this language, you must have gotten a sense that you developed a fluency far quicker than most.

>> No.20707550

>>20707511
I don't really think it's that exceptional or anything. The best way to learn a language is to just keep doing it. Eventually stuff just clicks after a while. A lot of the stories I see about people struggling to learn language involves them being too caught up in beginner-style mode and juggling different learning methods as opposed to actually just immersing themselves in the language.

>> No.20707584

>>20707550
>I don't really think it's that exceptional or anything.
It is certainly exceptional relative to my performance and based on what I've heard from most other people. Spending several years before you can approach any text is not unusual.
>All you need is kana, a tiny amount of super common kanji, and basic grammar.
I think I've gone well past this point, and if if I tried to read even native material that I think should be in my grasp, it's like I've learned nothing.

However, using this site, I actually find the comic surprisingly approachable. Tell me, did you find a need to heavily rely on the translations? I'm finding that I get some idea of what the sentence is about, and then I read the translations, and think of myself as stupid for not realizing it. Most of what I read in Genki was not this colloquial, but this is at least approachable, at least with a translation, which didn't seem to be the case with most of what I have attempted to read.

>> No.20707608

>>20707584
Don't concern yourself with textbook style stuff. That tends to be much more formal and stiff as opposed to casual/normal conversation. In my opinion, it's much more natural to get a grasp of casual/normal first and then all of the keigo/formal stuff will naturally fall in place over time.

>Tell me, did you find a need to heavily rely on the translations?
Be wary with this. It's OK to look at a translation on something if you're truly confused, but in general just try to avoid it. You want your brain to naturally understand Japanese as is. Constantly referring to translations will cause you to associate Japanese with English as if they are equivalents (they often aren't) and try to "translate" stuff in your head. Also, lots of fan translations are pretty bad anyway and you really shouldn't be referencing them.

>> No.20707616

>>20707608
I just meant in reading Yotsuba. I'm just using this website and find the writing (mostly) understandable, but only with the translation, which is in contrast to my usual experience, which is finding nothing understandable, even with translation.

>> No.20707640

>>20707616
In my opinion, it's best to learn by doing your best to piece together a sentence first. So look up any word you don't know, think about the grammar, and come up with a meaning for the sentence. If you are truly unsure, then look at a translation for reference. Yotsuba isn't complicated at all (minus some slang which will through beginners off), so after a few volumes it should start to click.

>> No.20708590

>>20706727
2 years without really attempting to read seems pretty bad. I was very much a late bloomer, I ignored grammar for the first 6 months or so and only started to read after a year, but if you're struggling after 2 you should really reconsider a lot of your study methods.

Genki is a very poor resource. The kind of Japanese you'll encounter in it is all very standardized, boiler plate example Japanese, which is something you'll basically never encounter in real life and wider reading. Attempting to memorise sentences and their meanings is an exercise in futility at best, all you're doing is creating bizarre associations. Grammar guides are for brief study and occasional referencing when you encounter something you don't understand in a children's picture book, not the be-all, end-all of a language.

Learning Japanese remains, to this day, the best decision I've ever made. And it took me a decade of dilly-dallying to actually get to that point, so even if most of the last 2 years has been in vain for you, you've still probably got another 60 odd years left to enjoy Japanese after you learn it.

>> No.20709136

>>20706908
>Also wound up falling into making my living as a translator as a side-effect.

could you elaborate a bit? freelance or agency? is salary good these days? how did it happen?

i love learning this language so much but i couldnt imagine a way making a living out of it because beeing bilingual is nowadays something almost expected.

>> No.20709389

>>20706908
How much do you earn as a translator?

>> No.20709526

>>20709049
>>20706908
Thank you for the impetus. Enough dilly dallying I suppose...back to it.

>> No.20709534
File: 43 KB, 675x435, 34wt4t.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
20709534

1. read through the Tae Kim Grammar Guide Essential and maybe Advanced. You don't need to memorize it, just go over it once or twice. Don't spend more than a few days on this. I repeat, just go through it quickly and don't get stuck taking a bunch of notes
2. delete all of your Anki decks and make one new Anki deck, this is your Japanese vocab mining deck and it's the only one you'll care about from now on. Go at max 20 cards/day in the beginning so you get familiar with the scheduler and your own limitations
3. start reading, suitable content would be raw doujinshi and super simple nukige
4. when you've been reading and learning words for several months and have a few thousand words, consider dipping your toes into easy VN and/or shonen manga
5. at this point you will have your own thoughts about where you want to go

You can start with one of the Core vocab decks and mine words to it if you want to. I started with Core6k in 2015 and here's how the deck looks now. I have pretty much reached my goals now, by following the steps above. In my case I started doing light doujinshi reading while going through Core6k (you can be more ambitious), and I didn't start mining before I'd finished Core6k. It's possible to mine new words while going through a premade deck but you run the risk of accidentally ending up with cards that depict the same words in different shapes. For example, Core6k should contain ここ but this word can appear as 此処 in the wild. Another example is 書きなおす vs 書き直す. It's important to check new cards against the stack if you're mining to a premade deck where you haven't seen all cards yet, just a heads up

>> No.20709593

>>20709534
sankyu

>> No.20709641

>>20709593
No problem. There are other ways to learn too of course but it's an idiot proof way if you're feeling lost.

>> No.20712130

>>20709534
Would that be equivalent to this?

Also, would it make more sense to be able to understand the accompanying sentences more than the given and often only somewhat accurate direct English translation for the word itself?

>> No.20712138

>>20712130
Meant to post deck: https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/1880390099

>> No.20712372
File: 97 KB, 1771x934, 無題.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
20712372

>>20712138
Mine is named the same so that should be it. My individual deck was not downloaded from that link so I can't make any guarantees about that particular download.

About example sentences, audio, images, and so on: I deleted all those fields shortly after beginning my deck. I personally found them to be a distraction and I had a weak phone at the time so every card had to load for a split second before I could click the Show answer button. Deleting the fields made the deck much lighter and faster, and I suddenly had space to put in my own definitions. See the card in question in pic. Obaasan, but with extra information that I put in there myself. It doesn't look like that in a stock Core deck.

>> No.20712402

>>20712130
Oh and you could probably guess my answer based on the reply: I wouldn't place much importance on the example sentences. I personally prefer using Anki to learn words only. Makes your reps faster so you can spend more time reading compelling content

>> No.20712428

>>20712402
I actually have the opposite stance, if only because I find memorizing single words along with their definitions often does not give me a good sense of how they're actually used in sentences or should be interpreted, along with not giving me a good intuitive sense of the language's grammar, or honing skill being able to understand a sentence by reading a sentence from beginning to end, and not jumping a around to form an equivalent English sentence in my head.

>> No.20712558

>>20712428
>how they're actually used in sentences or should be interpreted, along with not giving me a good intuitive sense of the language's grammar, or honing skill being able to understand a sentence by reading a sentence from beginning to end
Sure but that's what actual reading is for if you ask me, not Anki. What I'm touting is a pure vocab deck and its only purpose is to give a definition so you have something to go by when you're doing your reading (and you should be reading compelling content from day one). To be honest, when you're tens of thousands of words in and have built a library of words, the definition of a new word (most often a kanji compound) is something you instinctively understand as soon as you see it for the first time. So what is Anki really in the end, in regards to Japanese? It is your key to keeping track of how words are read. If this doesn't tell you anything, you will realize soon. Any other use is trivial in comparison

>> No.20714848

>>20709534
Thanks, I'll try my best.

>> No.20714865

>>20708590
Genki is meant to be read and worked through right after learning your basic kanas, you are not expected to know a single kanji to read it, and its not something you pick up if you've studied japanese for a while as its redundant at that point, its literally elementary tier-japanese meant to serve as a foundation for your japanese, and it serves that purpose very well.

you people cling too much to your books, guides, card decks etc, and think they are the only way to learn japanese

>> No.20714879

The best thing you can do is go to 2chan and start browsing it every day instead of this place. It's hard at first but in a year you won't have to look up anything anymore outside of those once in a blue moon words.

>> No.20716007

>>20712558
I can't see merit in the advice to just drop the Anki cards that I've already learned, as I think I've acquired a lot of knowledge, either in regards to vocabulary or grammar, (with the grammar being understood intuitively by reviewing sentences). I also really prefer the Anki approach, as it forces me to be familiar and retain what I've learned, which I can't guarantee if I'm translating things and not reviewing what I've learned.

Would a good compromise be starting out with something simple and approachable, like Yotsuba, and adding the sentences I don't understand at first to Anki, (which frankly will be almost all of them), and getting all the material I learn from now on from content meant for fluent speakers, but, again, still relying on Anki to review the sentences I've learned from these sources?

>> No.20718808

>>20714879
How can you be so sure about this?

>> No.20720323

>>20706727
Here's the basic fundamental rule of learning something


If you don't enjoy the process of learning and practicing that skill itself and instead just want to reach some far-off nebulous goal you'll get frustrated and quit

>> No.20720403

it takes a long fucking time, like years and years to read japanese well. i have n1 and ive been studying for about 7-8 years now and while i can understand 90% of what i read, i still read slow as fucked compared to my english level.

basically, if you're okay with it being a really long term goal then go for it, but you have to bear in mind you're not going to be fluent any time soon.

>> No.20720858

Would I learn Japanese for some manga or video game bullshit? No.

Would I learn Japanese so I could fuck Japanese women in their tight, hairy little pussies? Yes!

>> No.20720880

>>20720403
Depends on your learning style and what you have available. I’ve always learned anything by reading and writing, not watching and listening, and also have no native Japanese speakers to practice with. I learned to read and write Japanese well enough to chat with natives in real time on Line and Japanese Twitter in three months but my eyes still cross when I try to listen/speak it.

But I’d rather read a 300 page book to get the same information rather than watch a 5 minute Youtube video...and it’d be easier for me to learn it the former way...so I’m probably an outlier.

>> No.20720954

>>20718808
It's because I did it and you can too. Also don't get stuck on the details of what you're reading at first there but just get the gist of what they're saying and then move on.

>> No.20721404

In a dream, I listened to some lyrics from a Japanese song and didn't understand it at all, then listening close I realised it was all words I already knew. Then some dude gave me some advice, listen to Japanese as deeply as you would listen for Cthulu at the bottom of the ocean.

>> No.20722470

it's not a question of how long it takes to get fluent but how long it takes to get to a "good enough" level that you actually enjoy the stuff you read and listen to.

because by that point, improvement will be easy as you have fun while you learn.

>> No.20722498

I have 4 Meiki's Sarah, Maria, ZXY and Yen Yu Yee. I found all 4 pleasant to use but some are better than others.

>ZXY
Best out of the 4 overall. Most stimulating while still relative soft. Feels so great and comfy. ZXY felt pretty lose not very tight. This is probably one of my favorite onaholes I have used like 3rd or 4th place. This feels really comfy to use either going slow and going fast.

>Sarah
My initial attempt using this toy felt ok but nothing special. the 2nd and third time upon using I found out that the best angle was the side for me which it feels great. I'm still on the fence if this one or Maria is better. Material seems slightly more firm than the ZXY and also tighter. Has tons of different bumbs which offer pretty good variation.

>Maria
Felt softer than the others. Feels really great torn between the Sarah and this one i still like better but both are great. It's still interesting that this meiki is so good considering its pretty ancient all way back to 2008.

>Yen Yu Yee
Certainly most disappointing one. I wouldn't say this one feels bad but I thought it was the most boring texture inside. There's not really many bumbs. I found not much variation desu. I was thinking this one might be simular to the Julia+ but the texture from the Julia + is a bit softer and feels better.

>Conclusion
Was actually surprised how disappointing Yen Yu Yee was when reading reviews. I initially thought that Sarah would be the more disappointing one.

>> No.20722767

>>20709389
Not him but depending on what you translate/how much you charge you can make some serious bank if you're not a lazy ass. All for simply knowing another language.

>going rate is anywhere between .05 cents - .20 cents a character on average depending on content/your skill/how much they're willing to pay/how much you're ballsy enough to charge

source - side hustle is translating Chinese

>> No.20722830

>>20722767
What sort of things do you translate? How long did it take you learn Mandarin or Cantonese?

>> No.20722864

>>20722830
you presumptuous ass what if he translates a chinese language like wu?

>> No.20722876

>>20722864
Forgive my ignorance.

>> No.20723081

>>20720323
>you don't enjoy the process of learning and practicing that skill itself and instead just want to reach some far-off nebulous goal you'll get frustrated and quit
Well, the truth is I somewhat enjoy it, but that has to do with the motivation behind it.

>> No.20723152

>>20720880
Nah what you're saying make sense. I have a similar skill gap myself. I'm better at reading than I am at listening. You can get your listening skills way up fairly quickly if you listen to anything with Japanese subtitles or read a voiced VN.

>> No.20723221

>>20722830
So here's the greentext version of how I learned mandarin/got to where I am today

>fresh out of highschool
>decide to look for interesting seasonal work instead of going to college or enlisting
>end up at a popular tourist destination as a dishwasher
>fucking sucks
>but like 50% of our staff and guests are mandarin speakers
>end up picking up mandarin by befriending other kitchen staff who are Taiwanese/Malaysian/Chinese/etc
>go home every night tired and with like 20 new chinese characters scrawled on my arms from learning
>by the end of the summer I'd learned to read and write over 1000 hanzi
>return for round 2 the following summer as cook, studied in the interim so my chinese wouldn't be rusty
>become pantry supervisor quickly after various firings
>Mandarin speaking staff rolls in
>immediately start talking to them in pretty broken mandarin, but earn their respect
>this doesn't go unnoticed, mostly because now my entire section of the kitchen is labeled in fucking chinese/english
>mandarin skill improves dramatically over this summer
>by my 3rd summer I had become an accounting assistant/office bitch
>end up playing interpreter sometimes for kitchen/restaurant management who needed to write up/talk with mandarin speaker employees
>not as meteoric gains being made in the language at this point, mostly just filling in various gaps
>halfway through summer, director of HR approaches me directly and says she hears I speak some pretty mean mandarin
>vets me by walking with me around the location approaching random strangers/employees and chatting with them in mandarin and gauging their reactions
>says she'll "be in touch"
>5 weeks later receive offer for job in HR primarily dealing with engaging our Mandarin speaking employee base
>Accept it, finish out summer as office bitch and return the next one for my HR job
>job duties expand over the years but mostly I interview prospective employees/interpret cover letters/translate and create promotional materials/training materials/and whatever the fuck else I'm asked to to basically
>Still, it's seasonal work, so in the off season (about half the year) I end up taking odd jobs/contracts translating anything from shitty fiction to full-on technical documents (avoid that shit btw) at varying rates
>recently finished up translating an upcoming indie game (not disclosing title) from English to Mandarin

I'll say this, the odd jobs/translating on the side makes a LOT more money, but I'm glad I don't have to rely on it to make my living, my regular job is so chill and mitigates the stress of banging out 6000 characters in a single day if I'm really crunching out a high volume of work. I would not recommend only pure translating full time unless you want to go fucking insane.

>> No.20723256

>>20723152
>I'm better at reading than I am at listening.
That's pretty much the case with any language, and it's no different with Japanese. Of course, Japanese has the element of Kanji and the difficulty of separating words. I think it would also be more difficult to hear than Chinese, (which has an extremely low syllable rate), compared with Japanese's extremely high syllable rate.
If I were to design a language that was extraordinarily difficult to learn as a second language, Japanese would at least be a good start, though I would make the grammar more complex, and the the alphabet less phonetic, which are its only benefits to language learning. Even the simplicity of its words aren't necessarily a benefit, as that makes it at times frequently difficult to distinguish between cognates, or close cognates. Spelling with Kana is certainly easier because the language is so phonetic. However, I haven't tried to learn to write Kanji myself, but despite the lack of phoneticism and consistently in European languages like English and French which makes spelling and reading difficult, I seriously it's as difficult in the writing, reading, and spelling of Kanji.
I acquired a sense of the advantages of Latin, intuitively and explicitly, far earlier than I've done for Japanese, the advantage I see now only that I could understand unlocalized Japanese content, which I am hoping is a worthy goal.

>> No.20723282

>>20723221
Thank you. What country did you work in?

>> No.20723309

>>20723221
Thanks, that's interesting. I think I'll be a blue collar worker who amounts to nothing for the rest of his life, so being able to do some translation work on occasion if I need the money seems like it'd be nice.

>> No.20723316

>>20723309
Machine translation might get so good one day that they won't rely on you, so don't start spending your retirement money yet.

>> No.20723350

>>20723282
USA, I've only been out of the country twice, and both times it was to Mexico on vacation.

>> No.20723559

>>20706727
Still baby tier progress, but I've finally got to a point where it's not a massive pain in the ass to read VNs anymore.
First time I actually got through a plotge without a text hooker and just by looking words up occasionally was a magic moment for me.
My communication skills are still a catastrophe because I'm too slow to respond to anything that's not completely trivial, but I would say it's well worth it and a nice hobby to learn nip.

>> No.20723583

>>20723559
>My communication skills are still a catastrophe because I'm too slow to respond to anything that's not completely trivial, but I would say it's well worth it and a nice hobby to learn nip.
In my case, I only want to understand the language, with a primary focus on reading. I've only recently, after nearly two years of learning to read am now trying to be able to understand the words and sentences I've learned when being spoken, (which I use a very functional text-to-speech program for, which easily can make any Japanese card I have in Anki read to me in Japanese), not only because I would like to be able to understand spoken Japanese, but it requires me to have a much more fluent understanding of the words I've learned compared to what's required for written Japanese.

>> No.20723587

>>20723559
Try and force yourself to give quick responses, hopefully it'll train your brain to be able to more quickly peruse the Nip library you've got internally stored, not that I've tried this or anything, just a random guess at something that might be a useful strategy.

>> No.20723706

>>20723559
It's all uphill from there mate. I got to that point myself last year and everything just starts to click more and more as you go on. You've cleared the initial hurdle and now you can just have fun basically.

>> No.20723896

>>20723587
I think that's actually quite a good strategy, did that quite often back when I had to learn spanish.
I'll try to focus a bit more on that now, writing more nip (or any nip at all) is probably the best approach for me to get faster at actually producing intelligible nip in a timely manner.
>>20723706
It's definitely a bit improvement.
At first I tried to read manga to practice but that was a god awful experience.
Wasting hours drawing the kanji into the google translator or fucking around with a radical dictionary a dozen times for each page felt incredibly retarded.
Switching to VNs for reading practice was definitely a good decision imo, it's so much faster to look up a word when you already know the reading and how it's supposed to look like.

>> No.20723915
File: 786 KB, 711x948, 1548010950307.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
20723915

>>20706727
The runes will forever elude you, gaijin

>> No.20724238

>>20723915
Okay, but I'm sure I'll give up before then. I desperately tried to learn Latin, and eventually gave that up, an endeavor which by the way was far, far easier than Japanese and I somehow made more progress in, despite putting without understatement one-tenth of the effort.

>> No.20724271

>>20724238
Can you understand Bloodborne OSTs now?

>> No.20724378

>>20724271
I haven't even played Bloodborne, but in regards to whether I could understand what I assume are Latin lyrics, well, I'll tell you this: if I had a translation, and a dictionary, and the lyrics written down, I think without excessive difficulty I could translate it, or explain why the Latin words translate into the English. Without those translations, I could probably get a vague understanding of what's meant, biggest problem being some of the more poetic aspects of the language, or the meanings that don't have an obvious or direct English equivalent.
If that doesn't amount to much, I will say that I would find it far easier to translate those lyrics into English, than say, Yotsuba, even though I have spent far, far longer trying to learn Japanese, and haven't studied Latin in years, and I have spent far less time cumulatively studying Laitn.
This indicates either that I was studying Latin far more efficiently, or that Latin is far easier to learn.

>> No.20724594

>>20706727
You probably got convinced by the arguments brought forth in this thread already but I am really not sure if it is worth it. The payoff is amazing, but it's something that has taken several years of my life. And that is just to get to a level where I can somewhat comfortably understand just about anything I pick up. In the same time I could have learned several European languages, acquired knowledge equivalent to that of a college education or just used the time to cultivate myself in some other way and really, that is probably what most people should do with their time instead of learning Japanese. If you are fine with losing that time in exchange for knowing Japanese go for it. And don't be stupid about it, I don't know why you bother with Genki. Everything you do should be based on input theory.

>> No.20724662

>>20724594
>The payoff is amazing, but it's something that has taken several years of my life. And that is just to get to a level where I can somewhat comfortably understand just about anything I pick up.
It didn't take me nearly that long to understand most anime, VNs, manga, etc. fairly easily. I'm sure some more technical/college-level type of stuff can kick my ass, but in terms of payoff I'm way more than satisfied.

>> No.20724773

>>20724594
>In the same time I could have learned several European languages, acquired knowledge equivalent to that of a college education or just used the time to cultivate myself in some other way and really, that is probably what most people should do with their time instead of learning Japanese.
If you're on the otaku culture board, chances are pretty good that you're a hopeless NEET with no prospects anyway. Why waste your time becoming a rocket scientist when you can spend all day surrounded by cute girls helping you jerk off?

>> No.20725052

>>20724594
>You probably got convinced by the arguments brought forth in this thread already but I am really not sure if it is worth it.
Well, I have learned a lot here that is concrete, but frankly, and this might be quite vain to admit, but I'm looking at the responses and am wholly convinced of the people responding can develop a fluency in the language, so can I.

One theory I came up with last night, (when I was high, as I am want to do), is to deny myself all Japanese content in any form until I learn the language. (I considered going so far as to deny myself wasting any time, which I will try, and means not coming here, but that might be excessive). It has the benefit of forcing me to reach a goal in order to satisfy my weeb hunger, or, and perhaps even better, being so long deprived of what I immensely love, yet can only experience partially through localization, will rid me of the dependence. The exception is that I can expose myself to this content when I'm trying to read straight Japanese.

>> No.20725127

>>20725052
>One theory I came up with last night, (when I was high, as I am want to do), is to deny myself all Japanese content in any form until I learn the language
This makes absolutely zero sense. You can't learn a language without having content in that language. Don't waste time thinking of smart ideas of how to learn. Just go fucking do it.

>> No.20725136

>>20725127
Did you read the entirety of my post? Be honest.

>> No.20725149

>>20725136
No. Don't post something that makes zero sense and makes me stop reading the rest of your post.

>> No.20725154

>>20725149
Well, you were wrong to, as the very objection you made was totally answered by the last sentence of the post to which you objected.

>> No.20725162

>>20725154
Next time put the except clause in the first sentence.

>> No.20725169

>>20725162
Yeah, but it really was your fault to not read my entire post before you objected to it, and then to make it really obvious that you didn't read my post, and then to defend not reading it, and then to blame me because you made an objection that was totally answered by that post.

>> No.20725197

>>20725169
I'm at fault, but so are you for expressing yourself poorly.

>> No.20725221

>>20725136
Not him but I read it and couldn't for the life of me understand the second part.

Learning to read Japanese takes thousands of hours. Why don't you just start a vocab deck and start reading your favorite content now instead of posting wishful language learning methodology on /jp/?

>> No.20725282

>>20725197
Well, I suppose what I did say as such was untrue and misleading, but only in a technical sense, and hardly misleading unless someone doesn't read the next sentence. It's like if somebody said, "I never saw that woman. The exception was the night before the murder," there would be little purpose in trying to prove that they lied by offering evidence that they saw the woman the night before the murder, because that's the obvious interpretation of what said in toto.
>>20725221
>Not him but I read it and couldn't for the life of me understand the second part.
Which part is this? Was it, "The exception is that I can expose myself to this content when I'm trying to read straight Japanese."

>Why don't you just start a vocab deck and start reading your favorite content now
My favorite content would be anime and games that far above my level. If there are ways I could extract the scripts for this content, (mind you, these are nos VNs), I know not of these ways. I'm not even sure how I could find scripts and copy and paste. Even assuming I were actually trying to find content and try to understand it while only being able to look at it, I think I have have an extremely hard time doing this. We're talking like half-an-hour on maybe a single phrase, and if I had a translation, I would have a vague idea of how the original Japanese relates to the English translation, and if I have no translation, I might be only be able to read a vague idea of what the sentence is saying.

My plan is to stay with my current course for a little while, then try Yotsuba, which certainly is not my favorite content, but I don't think beyond my current level, and it's at least generally sanctioned as a good starting point for reading Japanese content meant for fluent speakers.

>> No.20725498

>>20706908
>>20706915
>>20706918
>>20706918
I agree 100% with your post but still i don't know how to start learning, when i learned english i did by playing games "climb up the ladder" i saw something i didin't understand searched it and done en after 2 or 3 years i had a great good enough level to consume english only media and to talk with native speakers, i would like to try to do the same for japanese but i don't know how could i "search" for the translation + kanji is complety different from letters so i think it would be way harder.
anyone care to give me some insight on where should i start?

>> No.20725518

>>20725498
Hard mode is to learn Kanji radicals, and look up words that way. I suggest you just use the Google Translate phone app, which can translate words you take pictures captured with your phone camera.

>> No.20725560

>>20725498
1. Learn and memorize all the kana (if you don't do this, you can't go anywhere).
2. Get a basic feel for grammar. I did this by just reading through Tae Kim's grammar guide quickly.
3/4. Begin learning vocabulary words and reading some super simple stuff like easy manga. These two things you sort of have to do at the same time. You can opt to learn a certain number of vocabulary words before trying to read or just dive right in. The common suggestion is to use sites like jisho.org to look up definitions and add vocab words to an anki deck (which you practice every day). After you do this for a while, you have more freedom and can focus on whatever area you want to study next.

>> No.20725597
File: 1.79 MB, 1401x2003, 004.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
20725597

>>20725282
Oh yeah? Shit's tough in the beginning. I'm >>20709534 and I remember furiously reading stuff like pic related and every speech bubble was a mountain to climb but I did it anyway because it was so incredibly thrilling to me. Watched namasensei, >20 words a day in Anki and jisho.org in a separate pinned tab and fucking look that shit up and analyze every sentence and don't skip anything. This process every day when I had time for it. Of course Core6k didn't contain words like 淫乱 中だし 催眠 無防備 射精 挿入 肉便器 後始末 咥える 窄める 搾る 精子 種付け etc but guess what I did until I had finished C6k, I put all of those in a specially crafted notepad document with on and kun readings and just opened that document whenever I was unable to recall a definition or reading. I also did other ridiculous shit like rewatch the first episode of Kill La Kill without subs 5 times over. Or spend entire days grinding through CG sets while I could have easily nutted in 15 mins by just reading the translation a few clicks away. Angry google searching for solutions to bugged text hookers when playing my first VN. Being unable to recognize kanji and more or less screaming at my monitor when Microsoft IME could not recognize my attempt at recreating the kanji in the IME Pad. Hearing a great Japanese song on internet radio only to lose it forever because I was not able to understand the lyrics well enough to find the song via google. I could go on forever.

>My favorite content would be anime and games that far above my level.
In that case you search for easier things that are as similar as possible and also serve to prepare you as well as possible for your favorite content. I like fantasy stuff and Chinese classics like 西遊記 and 三国志, for example, but I obviously couldn't read the full versions in Japanese. What did I do? I imported 偕成社's elementary school kid abridged versions and spent >1 year trudging through them, even though I didn't really want to spend hundreds of hours of precious lifetime reading kids' books. I was there in bed with a fucking pencil and underlined _every_ new word and every OLD word where I was unsure of the reading and then I went through it all at my PC later and manually added everything to Anki and double checked. I still do it but nowadays with flimsy shit mini LN pockets where the pages come loose and tear if you're not careful with the eraser. Sacrifices have to be made.

You might not have exactly the same goals as I do in Japanese but if they're at all tangentially related, you're going to fail if you don't realize the incredible workload that is in front of you and get your head straight. Reading Yotsuba is fine but Yotsuba is just a grain of sand in the desert that you're trying to cross so so stop thinking and start doing or you're just one of those who failed.

>> No.20725739

>>20722470
These are wise words.

>> No.20725778

If you are a fat, lazy fuck, you can start by doing Duolingo for fifteen minutes each day. You will need to supplement it eventually with other learning material, but it will get your fat lazy lardass into the habit of daily work to start.

>> No.20725892

>>20725778
>doing anything any minutes of any day
dont wanna
ill listen to earporn and alstroemeria though, that's pretty good input

>> No.20726053

>>20706727
>Is is worth it for me to keep trying to learn Japanese?
If you have to ask then its not. If you actually cared and had a reason to learn then you would not be asking stupid questions like that.

>> No.20726065

>>20726053
Sorry but your answer is far more stupid than the question considering some of the insightful dialogue the question has spawned, no such thing as a stupid question after all.

>> No.20726681

I'm just starting to go through a Genki book, but while I'm learning to form some basic sentences, I'm struggling with the kanji. I'll see if the Kodansha course helps me while I review the genki book.

>> No.20726708

That phase is pretty common. Take a longer break and try to read something after a month or so. Worked for me very well. Be prepered for it to happen again. Rinse, repeat.

>> No.20726824
File: 129 KB, 654x597, Screenshot 2019-01-27 at 23.20.33.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
20726824

>>20725597
>催眠術

all you had to do was play Pokemon for this

>搾る
Didn't realize that was 絞る's other kanji, for an oddly specific meaning - as expected, given the context you provided.

>> No.20726990

getting overwhelmed by the amount of information on the proper way to learn japanese.

I started duolingo last week and that combined with several online resources I've gotten mostly good at recognizing all the hiragana and katakana characters, though sometimes it takes me a second and any words I take a long ass time to sound out. Most of the vocabulary and grammar vanishes from my head once I finish a duolingo lesson though.

Ordered genki as well.

Is this enough? I keep reading that I should be memorizing the kanji using the RTK method and anki decks but is this a meme? Because it doesn't even teach you the kana, just memorize the definition of the symbol in english.

>> No.20727018

>>20726990
Get rid of Duolingo and Genki. You can get a basic overview about grammar from Tae Kim and skimming over DoJG, don't spent too much time on this.
RTK is optional, it's a big time investment, time that may be better spent on actually learning Japanese but it won't hurt you.
Download Anki, you can use Core6k (the one with voiced words and sentences) to learn some basic vocab. Then use Yomichan to create your own Anki cards, if you want to make good flashcards you can record audio from anime or VN using ShareX but that's optional as well. The most important thing is consuming as much Japanese as possible. Whether it's Anime with or without (Japanese) subtitles, VN, LN or whatever doesn't matter in the end.

>> No.20727024

>>20726990
Wait for Genki, and build a vocabulary as you go through the lessons. It will teach you how to form sentences little by little. You have to memorize the vocabulary by doing the exercises with discipline and repeating their hiragana with your voice so you develop memory and reading.
Once you get to the part which adds kanji to the vocabulary lists, memorize them by reproducing them in your phone's notepad with Japanese keyboard, or get Kodansha's Kanji Learner Course to reproduce them by hand. It's up to you how you push yourself, but push yourself.

Do all that for now. You will probably start reading/listening to japanese media once you want to take it to the next level.

>> No.20727053

>>20727018
>Get rid of Duolingo and Genki.
>>20727024
>Wait for Genki

fuck lads.

As far as consuming japanese, what's the best way to do that when I basically am out of the house/working 12 hours a day? Should I just listen to things on my commute even if I can't understand them? I wish I had actually committed to learning Japanese when I was a lazy college student but now I'm 30 and only have so much time to relax at home and watch anime

I don't want to miss some vital aspect of learning but don't want to be redundant either. I already paid for Genki so I'm going to use that. Genki + Core6k anki cards + memorizing kanji as I come across them using either RTK or KLC cards, does that sound reasonable?

>> No.20727059

>>20727053
>out of the house/working 12 hours a day
>I'm 30
Let me correct what I previously said.
Just give up.

>> No.20727076

>>20727059

I have literally no life and no problem devoting my remaining free time to this, just wondering ways I can make those 12 hours productive as well.

>> No.20727113

>>20727053
Listening to things without making an actual attempt to understand it doesn't do anything. Starting out with flash cards is good but after a while you'll have to start listening and reading to regular people just talking about anything. You'll have to obviously read stuff to help you with grammar but doing that and just listening once you have a good vocabulary will have you learning grammar quickly.

>> No.20727145

>>20706999
It's funny because it's true, and he's probably not from around here judging by the attempt to bold words. Or maybe he's just used to wheelchair land.

>> No.20727148

>>20727076
It doesn't really matter if you have no life, that's a given if you're here. The issue is that you'll almost certainly give up after a rough day at work because you figure one day off from anki isn't going to kill you.

>> No.20727203

>>20727053
You can play psp/gba games (including psp vn's), listen to podcasts/web radio, mobage, read mangaand watch anime with just your phone.

>> No.20729234

>>20727076
You aren't planning to sleep at all?

>> No.20729475

>>20727076
You can do this despite theae absolute nigger faggots telling you you can't.
Once you get home, have dinner, rest a little and start by learning hiragana and katakana. For that you'll use DJT's Kana and first memorize the vowels, the add a consonant if you feel you have memorized the vowels. Just take it easy, and don't let these absolute retards make you think you can't do it. Again wait for genki and take it easy.

>> No.20730233

>>20727148
I'm not the person you're talking to or about, but I have those days often. I get home from work at 10pm and do half my due words, crash to sleep, then do two days' worth the next evening when I have more time. It probably upsets some sort of algorithm of learned words and the space between them, but this is the life I have.

>> No.20732833

>>20706727
>Worth it?
As opposed to doing what?

>> No.20735905

>>20732833
Fap until falling sleep.

>> No.20736001

>>20735905
Few have such stamina, thus, ways to occupy oneself between faps must be sought out.

>> No.20736093

>>20706727
I'm in the same position as you , I started two years ago. I can pick up any vn at random and would probably be able to read it without a text hooker or dictionary, but I would understand only about 50% of what's going on. If I wanted to read an actual book it would be much less. I'm glad I've stuck with it so far , and japanese media is such a big part of my life that I probably will never quit learning. I started out my studies with the goal of reading one specific VN totally fluently , and that also helps drive me. I think you should identify one specific goal for yourself that you can work towards, one specific thing that you want to read or play like it was meant to be experienced. I think your goal is a bit too vague , which is why your wavering a bit . For me , when the day comes when I can finally read the thing I wanted to , I'll know it'll have been worth it. That's just my perspective, make of it what you will

>> No.20736208

>>20736093
>I think you should identify one specific goal for yourself that you can work towards, one specific thing that you want to read or play like it was meant to be experienced
The problem is that there isn't a single work that's worth learning this language for, but there are several games and anime I have in mind.
>For me , when the day comes when I can finally read the thing I wanted to
Can you share it?

>> No.20736289

>>20736208
Fate Stay/Night

>> No.20736299

>>20736289
Never heard of it.

>> No.20736302

>>20706727
>Genki
>not immersing in real content
I did genki in a few days as a side effect of immersing with books, jdramas, anime, etc. after just 6 months. Genki is holding you back, you don't learn a language like that. It's like reading how to swin instead of getting in the water. Anybody who got good spent a lot of time with native content. The people who are bad are the people studying it in college and textbooks.

>> No.20736324

>>20736289
My goal too. The visual novel is untranslatable in my opinion. I just want to read Nasu's prose as intended.

>> No.20737985

>>20736324
I've read a few KnK novels and Tsukihime in Japanese so far. Overall, it's way better but the H-scenes are about as bad in Japanese as they are in English.

>> No.20738712

All you need to learn Japanese is 10000 hours of anime watched

>> No.20742163

>>20737985
I love Fate, don't get me wrong. But I do not think "defenseless anus" could sound appealing in any language.

>> No.20742220

>>20742163
You mean, other than in English?

>> No.20742680

>>20742220
I won't lie, the Fate route had decent H scenes. Takeuchi's love for Seibaa clearly shows.

>> No.20744976

>>20736302

How the fuck do you learn a language by just staring at moon runes. I'm genuinely curious. What is the actual process by which you learn by opening up a manga or whatever.

>> No.20744992

>>20744976
If only it were possible to find out what those moon runes mean with the help of some magic document that contains a list of all known Japanese words, and their english equivalents. Better still, imagine a world in which that document could be searched instantly using the power of an interconnected series of tubes.

Until someone invents something like that, and calls it something cool like a "dictionary" or something, I guess we'll all just have to rely on textbooks to teach us stock phrases and hope that we magically become fluent after 20 years.

>> No.20746309

Let's assume I have a basic knowledge after going through Genki thorough, and let's also assume where I want to have the best chance to be able to read Japanese without the aid of a dictionary. What would be the best Anki deck to study that has enough material to last me months or years, while being also an efficient way to study?

I know that apparently the best way to study is to focus on native material, and I using a translation resources will be always be a handicap for the foreseeable future, but let's also assume I have strong reasons to primarily rely on Anki, and that the deficiency of this method will be made up with assiduity.

>> No.20746352

I wanna slap the fuck out of retards who are desperate to avoid native material. Go fuck yourself.

>> No.20746556

>>20746352
ooga booga wooga ooga ooga
native enough for ya?

>> No.20746742

>>20746309
You create your own Anki deck instead of using a pre made one. This way you have context for every word you learn AND you force yourself to consume native content to gain new words.

>> No.20748381

I can read Japanese well enough to enjoy weeb fare, albeit slowly and with dictionary assistance. I don't regret it myself but would not recommend it to anything but the most dedicated.

You are essentially burning 2-5 years of productivity to read porn and young adult literature.

>> No.20748397
File: 531 KB, 1110x1600, porno power.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
20748397

>> No.20748470

>>20746309
>without the aid of a dictionary
That won't happen. The average person knows like 20,000 words or so in their native language. You don't just magically learn those. You grab a dictionary. There's nothing wrong with checking a dictionary. It's your friend. Do what the other guy said, but also keep a dictionary at hand. You'll need it a lot especially when you're starting out.

>> No.20748532

>>20748470
Okay, well, what about just relying on dictionaries as little as possible?

>> No.20748555

>>20748532
Well it's fine to sit back for a second or two and try to recall something from memory if you want. However, there's not much point in trying to avoid the dictionary at your stage because you're going to need it constantly. You can worry about that much later down the road.

>> No.20748752

>>20748555
>Well it's fine to sit back for a second or two and try to recall something from memory if you want.
Well, the idea is that if I do this repeatedly enough, if I will recall the words quicker and quicker each time, to the point where it's effortless, which is fluency. If I decide to study without reference to any particular native text, it would naturally be words and grammatical forms that are most common, so in effect, the words and grammatical forms I would be looking up most often I would have already learned with Anki.

>> No.20748845

>>20748752
Well yeah, but you're already practicing your memory every time you consume content in Japanese. Anki is an extra tool that helps you memorize things. There's no need to really sweat it so much.

>> No.20750660

>>20746556
under appreciated reply

>> No.20751286

How did you learn your mother language?
Just do that for Japanese
Or any other language

>> No.20751747

>>20751286
This is specious advice.

>> No.20753065

>>20751747
if you mean gay then agreed his advice is gay as fuck

>> No.20753242

>>20751286
brb unpruning my neurons

>> No.20758252

>>20751286
Where do I get japanese parents?

>> No.20760021

>>20758252
Did you try buying them on Ebay?

>> No.20762705

this is a big thread

>> No.20765893

>>20762705
>>20762705
>>20762705
>>20762705

>> No.20766011

>>20762705
>>20765893
Why are you bumping this thread? Go to djt if you want to talk learning Japanese

>> No.20766044

>>20766011
Because I can.

>> No.20770789

>>20706727
Not an american (I live somewhere in south-east asia). Studying for almost a year now just as a hobby. I'd approximate my skill to be between N5 and N4.
I learned english growing up just by reading/watching american movies, tv,books, etc. Took pretty long(~5yrs), but I never had to touch a "learning the english language textbook". figured i could do something like that for japanese (still started with genki and anki cards though).

I'm learning japanese because its fun. Learning a language like english gives you access to fun and interesting shit. Same goes for japanese. I see japanese text almost everywhere, and learning what they mean feels so rewarding. It feels like unlocking another layer of life or some shit. When I sometimes ride the train, I can understand what キハ、クハ,サハ、機関車、スハネフ、川崎、気動車、危険、優先席、etc mean. Reading untranslated huge ass JICA reports (basic understanding only) feels fun, as the english translations trim up to half the content. I know that there are translations and learning is just optional, but trust me, it adds to the enjoyment.
Where I live, they sell raw japanese manga (physical copies) that are 5x cheaper than the yen press translations. I bought one a year ago because it was of an anime i like, and that is what made me want to learn.

It was 100% worth it for me.
OP, if you still enjoy it, I think it would be worth it. If not, I think you should consider.

Also, is it just me or when you learn the basics, even watching subbed anime helps with learning?

>> No.20771085

>>20706727
I don't understand why are you even asking. Just start it already and enjoy your stuff without butchered made up transaltions.

>> No.20771686

>>20771085
Is that what people really do? If I tried that, I think I could maybe twenty minutes on a single sentence and still only get a vague meaning. It might be easier if I started on works that I'm less interested, but are far more approachable, like Yotsuba. I'm just asking to get an idea of what people who have probably made far more progress than me do, and I question whether it's tackle their favorite works which they are probably not ready for. This is besides the fact that I doubt I will enjoy it trying to read it in this fashion.

>> No.20772211

>>20771686
First of all, don't listen anons and don't fall into yotsuba meme. It's not a good manga for start. Yotsuba is making tons of mistakes with on various things like keigo or just simple/serious grammar fuckups which are leading to complete misunderstandings. I don't even mention about regional accents etc. Try To Love Ru or some romance series. My first manga that I've fully read in Japanese was Suzuka.
Second thing is, you need to master your grammar. You can learn vocabulary and kanji when you're reading manga or text.
Anyway, reading Japanese and understanding it is one of the most satisfying thing, at least for me. I'm glad as fuck that I've decided to learn Japanese (generally speaking I'm still learning).
Playing Japanese games in Japanese is completely different, especially that translations for Japanese games are just atrocious and often completely made up.

>> No.20772643

>>20772211
>you need to master your grammar.
Do you have advice towards that end, preferably something that heavily involves Anki?

>> No.20772705

>>20772643
Watch anime

>> No.20772711

>>20772643
there's a dojg grammar deck for anki on DJT's CoR. get the recognition cards.

>> No.20772762

>>20772711
Thanks.

>> No.20772767

>when it takes you 4 months to get through the DoJG anki deck and when you get to the last 200 cards you already recognize a substantial portion of the grammar from reading

>> No.20772799

>>20772643
I'm sorry, but I've never used anything like this.
Open YouTube, search for Japanese From Zero channel and start from lesson 0, don't skip anything. This guy is explaining everything perfectly fine with good examples and culture references, so basically it's opposite to almost all learning books. You'll be fine after watching (and understanding) his lessons. It's the best source for learning Japanese grammar that I've ever found.
And yes I learned Japanese through English (except pronoutiation, because my language has almost exactly the same sounds like Japanese syllables, so pronoutiation was the easiest part for me, but for native English speakers Japanese pronoutiation is a nightmare), even if English is my 2nd language. All Japanese learning materials are a hot garbage with tons of mistakes and wrong explanations in my country anyway.

>> No.20772806

>>20772799
So, you can't recommend anything supplementary to this? It's just surprising that one could learn the language just relying on watching these video and I assume attempting to read content meant to fluent speakers.

>> No.20772823

>>20772806
I'm talking about grammar only. Kanji and vocabulary is a different story which should be done simultaneously.

>> No.20772828

>>20772823
Right.

>> No.20772885

Despite the absolutely horrible voice (enable subtitles if you can't understand her) this is a great resource:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLg9uYxuZf8x_A-vcqqyOFZu06WlhnypWj
Other resources typically describe Japanese grammar in a western kind of way. She explains grammar from a Japanese perspective and it can help you understand something if other resources don't make sense.

In particular I appreciated her videos on the causative, passive, and causative-passive, but all of the lessons have helped me.

>> No.20776638

I started learning around august last year, at the first i could barely read a hirgana words but now the language feels more natural like reading english, it takes a while to adjust but you will get there bros

>> No.20776676

>>20776638
shhh how dare you ply yourself diligently in learning the language meanwhile I've been slacking for the past few years go read a book or something you piece of well disciplined crap

>> No.20776694

>>20776638
I know this should be superfluous as this point since so many excellent methods have been suggest, but can you give a rundown on yours?

>> No.20778622

>>20706727
Well I've been learning Japanese for about a year now and all I can say is it is so fucking worth it. I can't even read kana last year but now I can spend a lazy afternoon reading a volume of raw manga. I can also understand those fun things some mangaka post on twitter. Sometimes I get surprised at my own studying ethic. Like last year I also graduated from uni, passed my licensure exam and got a job. Yet, amidst all that, I can still insert an hour or two of studying a day - got through all of Genki, Tae Kim, the basic section of DOJG (I'm still in the middle of the Intermediate section) and Anki core6k on the side. I can say studying Japanese changed me in a way too.

Also, you know it's okay to take a break sometimes if you're feeling burnt out. Sometimes I get sick with Japanese too but then I'll just take a break (there's a time where I didn't touch anything Japanese for weeks). Then I suddenly realized that no one is going to translate that doujin/manga for me. I have to do it myself.

>> No.20778693

>>20778622
I like reading stories like this. I started *really* learning back in Oct/Nov and progress is kinda slow so seeing the next checkpoint keeps me motivated (before Oct I wasted like 3 months doing RTK and listening to audio I couldn't understand, literally learning only like 10 words in 150 hours of raw Japanese).

I've been slacking on the reading and the vocab grind but that's because it's a pain working through text with such little vocab, and premade decks bore me. I'm going to finish the DOJG anki deck this month and I'll finish vncore within the next couple months. Hopefully after that I can start mining words and start improving more quickly.

Anyway, how's your listening? Mine is even worse than my reading but I plan on listening more this summer after I feel I've increased my vocab enough through reading.

>> No.20778973

>>20778693
Tsk RTK is really a huge waste of time. I'm so fucking glad that some people on DJT are against it. I think what helped me a lot, up until now, is learning the radicals. You can make your own stories and the radicals are related to the word anyway. Those stories you made will eventually fade, leaving only the kanji, the reading and the meaning.

Also, what I noticed is a lot of people on DJT are shilling others "to read" raw right at the bat. After I finished the DOJG (basic), I found out that when I sat down with a volume of manga, I didn't struggle that much with grammar. Of course I still have to look up words on the dictionary but even then, you already appreciate the stuff you're reading 'cause you are starting to understand. Anyway, I just read my first raw manga last month. I'm also new at this but I'm really having fun with this whole language learning experience.

My listening is I guess between N4 and N5. While my reading is between N4 and N3. 90% of what I listen is JPOP and that 10,000 hrs of anime isn't a meme. I also watch idols/VAs interview and stuff (mostly about Bang Dream). I still think my listening is still shit though 'cause listening requires lots of vocab.

>> No.20780072

Are there any other good resources besides https://supernative.tv/ for interactive speaking practice?

After a few years of reading practice with decent results, my understanding of spoken Japanese is essentially none.

>> No.20780242

>>20780072
This is probably one of the worst resources I've ever seen. Do you seriously have to sit there for 20 minutes just to go through enough DESU spam to get to anything vaguely challenging? I gave up at 2k.

Interactive speaking practice is a total waste of time. There are plenty of sites out there that offer native subtitles, the best one I can recommend is honestly Netflix. It's easy to VPN to a third world shithole to get a subscription for peanuts, or you can just use a free trial. Then you just VPN over to Japan, and enjoy everything they have to offer with full subtitles. Addons like subadub convert it into text you can copy and paste if you want to do dictionary lookup, too.

If you can't be bothered with that, Animelon is alright, although they have a few subs on there that are filled with typos because they just get everything from kitsunekko. You could also watch variety TV in general, they subtitle a lot of shit on-screen.

>> No.20780277

>>20780242
>This is probably one of the worst resources I've ever seen. Do you seriously have to sit there for 20 minutes just to go through enough DESU spam to get to anything vaguely challenging? I gave up at 2k.

For what it's worth, my listening abilities are such that I've been holding 2k for a week so far.

My listening abilities have been at the "I can pick up particles, the copula, verb conjugations, and some vocab" ever since I started I learning years ago. For the longest time, it was simply a lack of practice, but I'm starting to get worried that I'm really missing something vital.

>You could also watch variety TV in general, they subtitle a lot of shit on-screen.

With stuff like, say, Knight Scoop, I run into the issue of reading the subtitles, understanding them, and not recognizing where the words involved are actually being said.

Perhaps direct subs will work better.

>> No.20780578

>>20780242
>Do you seriously have to sit there for 20 minutes just to go through enough DESU spam to get to anything vaguely challenging? I gave up at 2k.

is your japanese just really shit? i did the 'placement' thing and it took 30 seconds and i got 2.5k, and i got up to 3k in another 10mins

>> No.20780601

>>20780277
>>For what it's worth, my listening abilities are such that I've been holding 2k for a week so far.
I'm pretty mediocre at listening, but I got to 2.5k before I got so bored that I had to stop. You gain like 2 points a question and lose like 20 for a typo at that point, I can't imagine anyone going much higher without a hell of a lot of time to waste on really terrible practice.

The thing about spoken audio is that you're always going to miss the occasional word. I'm an English native and I prefer to watch everything with subs because of that. Sometimes people mumble, sometimes the sound mixer is retarded, but spoken language is all about context. Hearing a bunch of totally random sentences isn't going to help at all with that.

>With stuff like, say, Knight Scoop, I run into the issue of reading the subtitles, understanding them, and not recognizing where the words involved are actually being said.
Knight Scoop isn't great for listening practice because there's a lot of dumb business words in that intro spiel, the first time I actually understood it more than 80% was when I saw it subtitled. The individual clips themselves shouldn't pose much hassle though, you might lose the thread of conversation when they bring out an expert but anything involving the client and detective is usually very basic conversational Japanese.

>>20780578
I went too fast on the placement and made a typo on one question, which put me at 1900 or something starting off. Do the questions get any harder at 3k? Because I was getting pretty tired by 2.5k, and still being asked to enter fucking て or が half the time. Unless you're doing something other than the listen + recall one.

>> No.20780663

>>20780601

i was doing speak back. i just tried the listen+recall and yeah its shit, you're right

>> No.20781041

>>20706727
I got N1 this december and am pretty happy I chose to learn it. Despite being pretty deep into both western literature and the western gaming scene, half my favorites out of all entertainment media are Japanese.

>> No.20786539

>>20706908
Are you a VN translator?

>> No.20791155

>>20706727
Yes it's worth it. If nothing else it will boost your self esteem forbeing able to speak it.

>> No.20791173

>The war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage.
how did he say this?

>> No.20791188

How old were you all when you started learning?

>> No.20791193

where's my fucking /djt/ thread
stop slacking

>> No.20791319

>>20791188
23

>> No.20791378

>>20791188
26

>> No.20791435

>>20791188
21

>> No.20791484

>>>/jp/djt

>> No.20791601

New to kanji, can anyone help me with the kanji 父? I know it's kunyomi is chichi but why is it pronounced as 'tou' in お父さん? Is it just an additional kunyomi?

>> No.20791757

>>20791601
I would suggest you go to DJT, even if it's filled with snobbish assholes who will tell you to google it or read the guide.

I'm ignorant as fuck, but here's my answer: kanji different thing and is pronounced differently depending on the context. This is something you should have learned very quickly if you've studied Japanese for any extensive time, which means I am talking to somebody who's more ignorant than I am. Maybe you are ahead of me and there's something to your question which I do not understand, but that's the answer. I would be surprised if I am wrong, or if my answer were misplaced

It's possible this is more obvious to me because I never bothered to learn kanji apart from regular vocabulary, which may have been a huge mistake, but there it is.

>> No.20794099

>>20791188
18 years old, then I stopped and started again at 22.

>> No.20797461

>>20791188
19 but stopped for a few years then restarted when relocated.

>> No.20803504

why so dead?

>> No.20804392

>>20791188
18.

>> No.20805048

I'm your average old honky fart who's been studying Japanese for nearly 40 years now. It's a fun hobby, but like a lot of hobbies it's ultimately pointless and disappointingly worthless.

Japanese people rarely leave Japan, so you won't have much chance to speak it anywhere else. If you go to Japan and don't look Japanese, anyone who speaks to you at all will insist on speaking English. If you try speaking Japanese back to them, their reactions will range from hilarious disbelief to horrible embarrassment. Caucasians visiting Japan are basically treated like bears who wear clothing; you're tolerated at best, but only so long as you have money.

If I had it all to do over again, I would've learned Mandarin Chinese instead. I've had dozens of Chinese colleagues. A third of the people in my neighborhood in Silicon Valley are Chinese. In retrospect, I really made a stupid choice about language study.

>> No.20805085

>>20805048
I can't think of anything more pointless than learning a language to talk to people, with the exception of English if you're an ESL.

>> No.20805184

>>20706727
>I've done it probably for probably close to two years now.
>I'm making sure, (with Anki), that I can fluently read, and hear every sentence in Genki
You could spend the rest of your life reading textbooks and drilling vocabulary, and you will still be confused when you read/listen to real, adult Japanese. Spend that time reading or listening to Japanese material instead. If you have been studying for 2 years you've gotten as much out of it as you are going to get.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5IPArDxO40

>> No.20805206

>>20805048
All those Chinese people coming to America speak English better than you would have ever spoken Chinese. Native English speakers have the luxury of learning languages purely for our own enjoyment. If you like reading, watching, and listening to Japanese things then I wouldn't say it was pointless and worthless at all.

>> No.20805570

>>20805048
I actually studied mandarin for short while. Thing about Chinese cultural products is that they just suck, their government makes sure nothing interesting will come out. I had really hard time keeping myself interested in that project.
Maybe mandarin would end up being more useful in the end but it was not fun. If I were to do something useful with my time I should probably learn to code better, read management books, try to build a small business or something like that.

>> No.20805684

>>20805085
There's a lot of people who think that English discussion of Japanese media is mostly crap (which it is) but then delude themselves into thinking that the Japanese discussion is all wonderful (which it is not).

Still, there's more of it.

>> No.20807043

>>20726990
Duolingo is a good start but it will only get you so far. Pick up Tae Kim as an addition and start working on reading and listen real material...you'll find it is very different than what is presented in Duolingo. This is a process...it will take time to become functional and much, much more time to even approach fluency. Be patient and keep plugging along. Any work with Japanese done daily is better than none at all. You have to see it to improve. Eventually you will need to change up your learning techniques to keep advancing, but for now just keep plugging along.

>> No.20807100

Get a HVDB invite then listen to tonnes of audio porn.

>> No.20810739

1980s Japanese pop music has simple vocabulary and clear, intelligible lyrics if you’re looking for music for listening practice.

>> No.20812805

>Learning Japanese Worth It?

I feel like you should only decide on this if you're absolutely 100% sure you won't lose interest in things you're learning a language for. Many people who later regret spending time learning Japanese are those who simply grew out of otaku stuff. I say you should be nearing your mid-20's (usually when adult responsibilities and relationships come in and the interest wanes) to make such decision. Also, you better decide you actually like a medium instead of believing the hype so you don't feel like you got memed (this applies to eroge and LNs)

>> No.20813851

>>20726053
No one can stop me. Not so long ago, I was but a pathetic neet. I woke up late afternoon and every single day I spent most of my time just lying in bed, waiting for the night to set in. I couldn't set my foot outside, I was too afraid the owner would kick me if I met him, since he only let me use this place as a favor. I would chainsmoke cigarettes and I blew all my savings on fastfood and diet soda. I got fatter, and I started buying lottery tickets in bulk, thinking I must've been the fated one. Every day I would just sit down in front of my computer and aimlessly browse the internet until the morning, when I'd go to bed to skip the most painful period of the day. Every day, it was hours of struggle to fall asleep for a mere 4-5 hours of rest on better days. For years, not a single day passed without me crying, having suicidal thoughts and just wondering how did everything go so wrong. I didn't have any purpose in life. Then I found one. It was Japan. I've loved Japan ever since my early teenage years, but I deliberately kept myself from letting my love become something more. I told myself japanese is an awful language to learn. But I realized that Japan is the single most beautiful place in this whole world and and there is no point in living if it's not in Japan. Having to work 70 hours a week sounded like a nightmare back then. Now, for me, it sounds like utopia. So I'm turning my whole life around. I got accepted to a pretty good university and now I'm studying computer engineering. Now I wake up at 5am every morning and start my day with a workout. I'm learning to cook to save money on food and eat more healthily. I spend most my days studying and I'm getting better and better. I want to get a job and save up money so I could continue my studies in a pretigious Japanese university after I graduate. Then I will do anything to settle down in Hokkaido and live my life right.

Sayonara, and see you in Japan!

>> No.20813869

>>20813851
based if true

>> No.20813988

>>20812805
>you actually like a medium instead of believing the hype so you don't feel like you got memed
I really like anime for the visual and unique conceptual aspects, but I find what's being said to be terribly boring and not engaging, so I am hoping it will become engaging if I can watch untranslated versions, in which I will at least have to struggle with what is being said.

This is my primary intent. Getting access to materials that are not translated is a bonus, but I am assuming the best anime is translated, and I am fine with the translations themselves, only I am hoping that they will be more engaging, and perhaps I will find that the writing is superior to it prior to translation.

>> No.20814039

>>20706915
>an adventure game for Windows downloadable from the website if you enter the serial number found on vol. 3 of the character song CD series

any example of this? because that sounds incredibly weird

>> No.20814096

>>20813869
Based on what?

>> No.20815284

Why the fuck did AnkiConnect suddenly stop working with Yomichan? I'm using firefox.

>> No.20819177

>is learning jap worth it
If you're 25 or younger than hell yes. People above that age will have a hard time though.

>> No.20819553

how long am I supposed to spend memorizing the kana and their fonts before moving on?

>> No.20819581

>>20819553
as long as it takes you to memorize them. a week should be more than enough

>> No.20819583

>>20819553
WRITE EACH 50 TIMES IN YOUR NOTEBOOK

>> No.20819603

>>20819583
but what if he doesnt want to learn how to write them and only wants to read them mr namasensei

>> No.20819680

>>20819583
This is actually a terrible way to learn it. Recognizing different fonts will be a nightmare if you only use one font to learn all of them.

>> No.20819824

>>20819680
Are you fucking stupid? People don't write with "fonts", buddy.

Writing kana is the BEST way to learn them, simply because not only does is it a very concrete way to get something down, it also reinforces the WAY in which they're written, which is the ideal method for recognition of something that can be as variable as handwriting. If you know where each stroke starts and stops, you can more easily visualise which side of the character is going to be thicker and which side is going to tail off.

Honestly, all of this is a moot point because you should learn kana in an hour and only have to brush up on them for the next week when you encounter one that slips your mind, the real key to learning kana is just basic exposure. You don't need mnemonics, you don't need flashcards with 20 different fonts on them, all you need is get them into your head, and writing each one 50 times is the fastest way to do that.

>> No.20819870

>>20819824
Let me be more specific then. Writing it and seeing it in one way is unhealthy because when you come across a font online then you'll struggle to recognize it because it looks completely different to your own handwriting.

You also need to keep in mind that learning how to write each individual kana and their correct stroke order can in itself take a long time. And if you think that being able to write all of the kana in a clear way 50 times takes an hour is possible then you must be some kind of prodigy.

>> No.20820905

>>20707269
The best way to get good at reading anything is to force yourself to read. If you have basic concepts down just force yourself to read a manga, a VN, a light novel, anything you want. It'll be hard at first sure but the sooner you start forcing yourself to do this the faster it'll get easier. You'll be surprised how quickly you get to a decent level for reading the more you stick it out. There isn't a level where you're "ready" to read actual things fluently without having read any actual things.

>> No.20820924

>>20819870
>You also need to keep in mind that learning how to write each individual kana and their correct stroke order can in itself take a long time
Are you retarded? Learning kana stroke order isn't that hard. Write them several times and you'll get muscle memory for how to do it, just like you probably write letters in english the same way every time even without a "stroke order". Anyone who is not mentally handicapped and puts in effort every day wouldn't take more than a few weeks at the absolute maximum.

>> No.20821367

>>20814096
THIS DICK

>> No.20823722

i need a resource for getting raw light novels ebooks or pdfs

>> No.20823762

>>20823722
https://djtguide.neocities.org/cor.html#novels

>> No.20823773

>>20770789
>Also, is it just me or when you learn the basics, even watching subbed anime helps with learning?
well I'm a random retard that has never learned JP bar 10 hiragana but after watching like 120+ animes I know the most basic words, so yeah it definitely helps

>> No.20823830

>>20823762
>https://djtguide.neocities.org/cor.html#novels
oh what the hell thank you

>> No.20824434

>>20819824
>all of this is a moot point
>moot
who?

>> No.20826908

>>20820924
Hello princess

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