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She's the strongest when she has a decent master (like in UBW), but because shitty Shirou is her master she sucks

Someone post the type moon tier >>>> list.

Caster defeats her

>>2064174

Shirou makes up for it by fighting himself, and pulling trace hacks out of his ass. Also, when he gives Avalon back, she's almost back to her full glory.

would kiritsugi/rin's saber win against 5th berserker?

>>2064192
1x1?

>>2064174

Shirou makes up for it by fighting himself, and pulling trace hax out of his ass. Also, when he gives Avalon back, she's almost back to her full glory.

>>2064192
Rin might, Kiritsugi probably wouldn't, considering he'd be reluctant to shoot his own daughter in the head, MIND OF STEEL or not.

>>2064163
Based on in game information:
>strongest Servant
Gilgamesh
>strongest type
Saber class
Arthuria is the strongest Saber class summoned.

As you're going to find out though, who wins and who loses depends on the situation.

Saber gets man handled by Berserker in Fate so Shirou can tell Saber not to fight cause she'll get die. In UBW she gets the upper hand a bit.

>>2064163
You did notice that she was hit and barely survived a fucking NP attack by another Servant, and Shirou cannot PROVIDE mana for her, righ?
The less mana they got, the weaker they get.

Anyway:
In terms of stats and skills, Saber is definitely of the top ones.
But MANY other regards such as affinity, matching techniques/skills prevent a simple ranking (except for the assassins) and KNOWLEDGE of the enemy (aka knowing beforehand their name or skills) or terrain advantage easily upsets battles.

This is not the kind of action tales that everything is determined by HIGHEST power or STRONGEST attack only.

I hope you get this early, lest shistorms may follow.

>>2064231

>You did notice that she was hit and barely survived a fucking NP attack by another Servant, and Shirou cannot PROVIDE mana for her, righ?
The less mana they got, the weaker they get.

lancelot kicked her ass in fate/zero.

>>2064277
Only after she lost the will to fight against her old friend that turned into a mindless beast because she's a fucking failure.

>>2064277
Black Knigh is a unique case.
He BURNS HIS mana constantly at a high pace.
As long as the master supplied, he kept running at full engine.
When the master could not give anymore, he burnt ALL of it and could not even SLASH DOWN HIS FUCKING SWORD TO FINISH OFF AN OPPONENT.

As for the 'WEAKNESS' factor, Saber is the proof.
Before the 'Mana transfer', or after being freed by caster, she can barely push Shirou away with her strength. Gil has both a human body and just the mana of dying children.

If you think about it, the monster that is Gilgamesh is such a threat with ONLY his firepower(aka, throwing weapons he almost NEVER bothers to use). He is a unique case as well.

Translation project for Fate/Zero, where?

>>2064163
It's called plothax, all kind of stupid BS comes to let the fuckbuddy win.

>>2064277
the artbook was scanned? where can I find it?

>>2064327
...

Archer is the strongest class overall.

Evidence: 4th and 5th Archers.

>>2064348
EMIYA is a weak piece of shit.

>>2064277
>>2064313
Fuck. That guy would have been the perfect servant for Ilya...

>>2064357
You mean 5th Archer?

In Fate, he was ambushed and disabled early on, and then had to go into battle against the strongest (in terms of brute strength and possibly defense) Servant ever summoned while still wounded and without any supply of mana. Still, he killed said Servant several times.

In UBW, he was too busy being an emo faggot to ever actually fight anyone.

In HF, he was killed by a power far greater than any single Servant could ever hope to be.

Judging by his accomplishments against Berserker and how he and Gilgamesh treated each other, it's pretty safe to say that he was the strongest Servant involved in the 5th War and could have easily defeated any of them in a fair one-on-one fight.

>>2064390
Wow, he took a few lives from Berserker by using everything he has and he died. Saber can take all of his lives at once with a few syllables and a swing of her sword. Gilgamesh can stand back and fling shit at him all day without breaking a sweat. EMIYA is low tier.

>>2064390
Thus, half killing a strong-servant and having an ability that PERFECTLY matches another of a guy who is also not at his best, and losing to the Anti-Servant Shadow accompanied by two servants means he is superior of the whole cast.

And on the one ROUTE where you actually SEE why he is actually quite strong, you say' Bah, emo faggot did nothing'.

Best opinion ever or what?

>>2064409
That being said, Saber couldn't even take one life without using Excalibur, and in the BAD END that didn't kill him, even with the lives he lost from Archer(which I assume is enough to make up for Excalibur being weaker than usual).

>>2064409
>using everything he has
He didn't even use his Noble Phantasm. How can that possibly be everything he has?

>>2064412
See why he is quite strong? How so? All he did in UBW was play defense in every fucking battle. What are you talking about?

>He didn't even use his Noble Phantasm. How can that possibly be everything he has?
He actually used it, watch anime, fucktard.

>>2064436

Well, Caladbolg against Berserker in the beginning was apparently stupidly strong, he completely raped Caster, matched Lancer pretty well, survived a stupid amount of stuff from Gil and then killed him later, managed to make Saber back off with UBW, even though he was in a greatly weakened state....etc....

Iskander is the strongest due to sheer manliness.

>>2064448

I loled a bit.... seriously, are you stupid?

>>2064436
We have no fucking idea how he fought Berserker.
In fact, no route other than UBW clearly showcases Archer's abilities
And really, if the ONE route where he is SHOWN fighting and his ACTUAL abilities are seen does not count... then, whatever.

You have some weird, weird criteria.

Explain me something: Archer is a counter guardian, right? How the fuck he ended up being summoned to the Grail war?

>>2064383
On second thought, Hercules already did a good enough job draining Iliya for mana...

Which berserk is the stronger one?

>>2064462
1) Rin's pendant was a catalyst that summoned him to her.
2) Angra Maniyu was a threat against humanity, and in those situations humanity usually deployed Counter Forces to protect themselves. In this case, the Counter Force was a Counter Guardian.

>>2064473
Probably the black knight if he had a master like Ilya that could actually sustain him. With Kariya as his master though, Hercules is definitely the winner.

>>2064473
Also, why are Berserkers in general so recockulous?

Skill-wise, Lancelot, power-wise, Hercules. Lancelot can't kill him twelve times, though, so Hercules wins. That thing he does with the 'everything is a NP' wouldn't pierce God Hand, so he'd only get off a kill or two.

>>2064462
Lesson 143 for idiots who cannot make distinctions:

Heroic Spirit: A STATUS you earn, because you are worshiped by the people. Elevated existence due to human will. Usually stroung heroes of humanity.
Summoned by the grail to harvest their souls.
After the fuck-up of 3f grail war, OTHER things than 'heroes' can be summoned (monsters or people like Medea)

Wraith: A simple soul, that has no elevated status. Can actually be quite strong. Assassin is that. Summoned since it was Caster's work.
True assassin's are closer to that too actually, and they are summoned to fill the 'Class quota'.

Counter Guardian; A JOB. Heroic Spirit, Wraith, nameless or antihero, someone who is summoned to do the specific clean-up. Whether it's due to contract or other reasons, you are called to do what you have to do. STATUS has nothing to do with it. You can be a heroic spirit of the throne, yet CALLED to do a dirty job.

>>2064451
>>2064454
Other than Caladbolg, all you mentioned there was playing defense. He matched many Servants by defending against them, but there was no evidence shown that he could actually defeat them with those abilities. In the case of Caladbolg, he had to go through the time necessary to use a Broken Phantasm, so that would have been utterly useless if he wasn't fighting dirtily. Also, I believe it was stated that it wouldn't have scratched Berserker, but I could be mistaken.

If anything, the best way to prove that he was the strongest is Sparks Liner High. Shirou, his body and mind broken, used a fraction of Archer's basic battle abilities and, in doing so, thrashed a Saber using all of her combat abilities aside from her Noble Phantasm.

>>2064506
She didn't fought at full force.

>>2064515
Wrong. The only thing she didn't use was Excalibur.

>>2064506
I like how the best judge of abilities for you is what you DO NOT SEE HIM doing.

Blocking An enemy's strongest, no holding back, supposedly UNBLOCKABLE attack?
Pfff, pussies.

Evading Caster's deadliest attacks and forcing her at a stalemate with two moves?
Pfft, who cares, we saw him use Caladbolg before.
Surviving Sowrdfight with the best one in the F/SN cast?
Who cares, he is not even real.
Am I right or am I right?
...
Sigh.

>>2064494
The power boost is offset by the fact that they're insane and also a HUGE mana drain.

>>2064506
Eheh, like you even know how long it takes to use a BP. There was a delay because Rin would have been caught in the explosion and he had to be far enough away to sneak attack/not kill himself, not because it took a long time to use. Also, Berserker HAD to block it, or it would have taken at least one life. It was strong enough for Ilya to become interested in Archer afterwards.

Also, the idea is that if he can beat them defensively, Archer can also win offensively. He could easily have beaten Caster, for instance. In a perfect state, he might be able to use Excalibur, even, but he was weakened during the UBW scene, so it would have killed him to use it. Basically, he defended so often because he was constantly injured/manadrained/etc..., and couldn't go all-out.

>>2064494
>That thing he does with the 'everything is a NP'
How does it work anyway?
He grabs a crorbar = crowbar gains random magical power?

>>2064536
He can use ANY NP.
Random objects gain a rank of D.
He charges Saber with a pipe.

>>2064536

Ah, well... normal weapons, like guns or whatever, can't hurt servants. The weapon must be magical in some way, or it's useless- hence Kuzuki's mana-reinforced fists hurting Saber and whatnot. Lancelot can turn anything into a NP, so it can hurt Servants even though it's not magical in nature (i.e., although Rider's chain-thing and Assassin's dirks, or even Monohoshizao have no magical properties, they can hurt servants because of the 'Noble Phantasm' property).

In other words, he adds the label 'Noble Phantasm' to something, so it can hurt Servants, but it doesn't gain any special ability.

>>2064528
>Blocking An enemy's strongest, no holding back, supposedly UNBLOCKABLE attack?
Talking about Lancer? There are two different methods of use for Gae Bolg. The way he used it in UBW was not nearly as strong as you're making it out to be.

>Evading Caster's deadliest attacks and forcing her at a stalemate with two moves?
We didn't see him kill her, did we? Whatever happened to "I like how the best judge of abilities for you is what you DO NOT SEE HIM doing." Also, Caster was weak as fuck for a Servant. Her only chance to win against ANY Servant was a lucky shot with Rule Breaker.

>Surviving Sowrdfight with the best one in the F/SN cast?
I'm really not sure what you're talking about here. Care to be more clear?

>>2064534
Yes, I know what you're trying to say, but it's all speculative. I'm not saying UBW proves that he's weak, but instead that it doesn't prove that he's strong.

>>2064580
Go read the fucking Status screen. It's his best attack/
You underestimate Caster too much, if yo think 'Dodging Shower of A-rank laser and catching her before teleporting is SOOOO easy'.

Finally, Read carefully the fucking VN.
Refresh your memory.
It's fucking obnoxious.

>>2064589
The point is, you claim the things we DON'T see him doing or things he DOESN'T do on the other roots prove he is strong.
You just have fucked up reasoning.

The strongest would be Arthuria if she were to be summoned by Illya.

Strongest master in terms of fighting skills though would be Bazzett.

>>2064595
Blocking Lancer's strongest attack isn't much of an accomplishment if it completely destroys your strongest defense and leaves you barely alive while he's completely unharmed.

Hey guys...so...mana = sexual endurance, right?

>>2064616
I sort of get the feeling that Kiritsugu's Saber is stronger than an Ilya's Saber would be.

Also, I find it hilarious that everyone arguing against me can't make a single fucking post without misspelling something or violating basic grammar rules.

>Powerlevels thread.

ZERO ARTBOOK SCANNED FUCKING WHERE

>>2064617
If you can block a very strong attack that also has the extra effect of being VERY EFFECTIVE at piercing defenses, it means Archer has a VERY powerful Shield spell at his disposal.
It's existence and confirmed strength are the point.

>Go read the fucking Status screen. It's his best attack/
What, are you judging by Rank alone?

>>2064632
Archer was fucking helpless after defending that attack, Lancer was unharmed.

He's versatile, but he is no where near the strongest even excluding Gilgamesh.

>>2064632
Go suck Archer's cock, faggot.

>>2064632
Did you miss the part about Rho Aias basically being an anti-spear shield? In other words, the fact that it wouldn't be anywhere near that useful against any other attack?

Considering that, it really is basically useless, seeing as how it wasn't useful against Lancer.

>>2064643
>>2064646
...Who claimed he is the strongest?
He has a powerful shield, and even if he was battered against Lancer's attack, it doesn't mean he will be against EVERY attack.

And the post is an argument for the faggot who claims 'UBW doesn't shows us what Archer can do', while it's the only one.

And really, the 'title' of strongest is very fleeting.
As It has been said before, matching abilities, affinities and how 'costly' the moves are (Mana required for skills or NP) can make a huge difference for each bout.
There are Servant Archer is good against, and others he is BAD against.


Christ, retards everywhere.

>>2064625

Rin's saber was stronger than Kirutsugi's.

>>2064643
He would have been able to crush Gilgamesh effortlessly if both of them were at full power. UBW heavily implied this many times.

>>2064657
1. Read fucking status screen.
2. See the shield holding back a barrage from Gate of Babylon.
3. See the shield withholding the pressure of both Bellerephon and Excalibur and controlling to an extend how much power passes.

...You know waht, it's pointless.
Most of the people here have not read the fucking status screens or the EXPLANATIONS in-game that Nasu hammers, and only judge by results.
I give. I'm bored.
I'll go play Bushido Blade.

>>2064671
You are a moron. Gilgamesh at full power and not holding back can win the grail war in one night. There is no heroic spirit that can match him in raw power.

>>2064665
Rin's Saber edges Kiritsugu's out in terms of normal attacking power, yeah, but Kiritsugu's Saber edged Rin's out in other things.

>>2064678
Gil only has his firepower (since only mana source is near dead kids and has human body).
Plus, if necessary people can double-team him.
Also, he pretty much never gets serious from the get-go, so it's a STRONG What-If.
If Shirou could match him in these circumstances, so could Archer, possibly..

>>2064678
Which is why it went on and on about how "Unlimited Blade Works is the only thing that can match Gate of Babylon," right?

>>2064700
Bazzett would just have to punch him when he's doing his women and children are mongrels or whatever speech, and it would all be over

GoB>>>>>>>>>UBW.

>>2064696
Gilgamesh has a body of flesh, but he is still a heroic spirit whose stats are way above a normal human.

>>2064745
In fact, you could probably make an argument for his flesh body making him even more dangerous due to an increased ability to conserve mana.

>>2064727
Archer needs a ship? Just trace a sword.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJITJO6jSb4&feature=related

>>2064745
The problem is comparing him to the other servants.
Normal at his PEAK Gil, without weapons could survive and beat the crap of whatever the Gods sent against him.
Zero Gil, along with Saber has the BEST overall stats behind the berserkers.

As he is at F/SN, he cannot OUTRUN Shirou. He only overwhelms a Saber who had MANA transfer with Shirou and fought berserker.
Physical attributes are quite down.

>>2064777
But that's mostly due to the fact that Kirei isn't a strong Master, isn't it?

Posting strongest servant in a strongest servant thread

>>2064789
Kirei is pretty good master
But he has Lancer as his Servant.
He and Gil do not have an actual contract.
The GOOD part of the human body is that Gil can stay without the Grail and ridiculous mana dosage.
The problem is he cannot GENERATE on his own and stockpiles through dying kids.

>>2064797
She's weaker than Rin and Kiritsugu's Sabers in general, but she has a lot more mana... Hm.

>>2064777
The only difference between Gilgamesh between wars was that his Agi, End, and Mana were one rank down in Kotomine's service.

He still had C Agility, which makes him on part with Archer in speed, and Archer was faster than Shirou. In fact, both Archers had the same Agi, End, and Mana ratings.

Gilgamesh sucked against Shirou in UBW because Shirou was like a wild monkey right in Gilgamesh's face. Anytime Gilgamesh tried to act with a weapon, Shirou would smash into it with the same weapon. And Shirou's technique with weapons, which was Archer's technique, was insanely better than Gilgamesh's. Excepting perhaps Assassin, Archer had the best weapons ability of all the servants. He'd get raped by Saber, as shown, because Saber can just Mana Burst and crash through him.

Technique, after all, is for people that can't do with their raw strength what is necessary.

As to why Gilgamesh wouldn't simply just run the fuck away at full speed: he's the Arrogant King Fuckhole of the Universe, and running is unheard of; when he DID try to run, he was getting away until Angry Manjew tried to crawl out of his shoulder.

>>2064841
Concerning the very last part:
Gil RUNS.
Shirou runs and CATCHES up.
Gil tries to pull out a weapon.Shirou is confident he will slash first.

AVENGER HOLE moment.
It's about the details.
Stats or not, Gil cannot do what most Servant could, jump back 20 meters easy.

Doesn't Saber destroy Archer with her NP at some point in Hollow Ataraxia?

>>2064959
Nothing in Hollow Ataraxia ever happened, so why is this relevant?

>>2064959
That battle is about Shirou trying to remember what his abilities are. Takes him a few tries.

>>2064959
Doesn't Saber get one shotted by a master in HA? whats your point?

>>2065012
Bazett's abilities were real, though. Had she and Lancer actually fought together, they probably would've won the war.

>>2065050
I wouldn't count on it. Shirou would have found some way to win.

>>2065012
I never said Bazett couldn't kill Saber, I meant that Saber could take on Archer. He even says it himself in UBW when he says that in order to beat her, he would have to project Excalibur, which would kill him.

>>2065072
Or he can just do what shirou did...

>>2065095
Dark Saber was slow as shit though. That wouldn't work on regular Saber, let alone Saber if she had a decent master.

>>2065099
Either way, if archer can double ko. saber. That's enough proof he's strong already

>>2065135
Having a lol suicide attack really isn't a good definition of strong unless you're El Nahat or something. Granted Archer is strong sure but the Grail War is just a big game of Rock Paper Scissors.

Lily Saber > all.

>>2065163
It's not THAT simple.
More like Pokemon, with no LEVELS and breeding, but an exhaustion factor.

>>2065163
Falling victim of a suicide attack won't really define you as strong either. If you argue that saber could take on archer, then turning it the other way around is valid too.

Assassin is the strongest.

>>2065225
Assassin IS the best.
Sexiest voice in the game too.

>>2065099
Of course, Archer is also a lot faster than Shirou.

Nasu is a genius, mixing an H-Game with troll material.

The following articles have to be taken into consideration in ANY battle:

- Location (hill, plains, cliff, warehouse, etc)
- Conditions (rain, black ice, clear day, raging fire)
- Participants
- Support (Masters, trainers, cheerleaders)
- Hindrances (variant of Support: useless people, things, objectives that have to be achieved prior to victory or defeat)
- Participant Capability (Saber is the strongest sword, Gil has gatlin powa, Rider makes you hard, etc)
- Participant weaknesses (known, unknown, and/or pertaining to conditions and/or location)
- Outside factors (things that would interrupt a fight)

With those factors, anyone can win or lose a fight, even godly people like Gilgamesh, Saber, etc. It's an idiot and a fool who thinks strength and cheap tricks alone win a real fight.

If you naysay this, I recommend you put down the video games and pick up some strategy tomes.

>>2065253
No matter what you say, Serpico will never be able to defeat Guts, okay?

>>2065253
>>real fight

lol fiction

>>2064491
Kairiya would be eaten alive by Heracles' mana requirements. Illya was designed to be that kind of battery well for mana--she has huge amounts of it in store, as well as possibly the most circuits out of any but the most freaky TM characters (bar maybe the Types and Ciel). She was forced to summon and maintain Heracles a month prior to the start of the actual war, as well as train him.

Kairya would have been a husk of a corpse, trying to imitate the loli.

Of the two, I'd hand the stronger overall prize to Heracles (crazy high stats, hax Noble Phantasm) over Lancelot.

>>2064536
A Noble Phantasm by definition is an object, ideal, or entity given fame by the depths of humanity, raising it to a level of a divine mystery. They're powerful artifacts with varying abilities. Lancelot's Noble Phantasm comes from his fame of beating the fuck out of armed soldiers and high-level knights with something as insignificant as a tree branch. Hence, anything in his hands immediately becomes an effective weapon.

Similar to Heracles' fame of gaining immortality and an indestructible body through 12 (13) godly labors, hence his NP God Hand.

>>2065308
The Berserkers with their normal masters -> Hercules wins.

>>2065303
>art of war

Read it, faggot.

>>2065303
Any setting realistic in each own context and universe follows something like that.

Otherwise, each WHIP IT OUT AND MEASURE IT fights.

>>2065321
lol fate/stay night isnt a real fight durhur

>>2064617
Except that he wasn't useless. He goes on moments later to own Caster in a hailstorm of blades, trap Rin with the same, and uses UBW to force Saber into a serious stalemate ("Yes, you can kill me, but I'll still win in the end").

Offensively speaking, Archer isn't much to crow about. The problem is one of you is trying to do just that. Gilgamesh is an offensive Archer. Emiya was possibly the best defensive Servant bar maybe False Assassin.

>>2065343
It's kinda sad.

ZERO ARTBOOK SCANNED FUCKING WHERE
ZERO ARTBOOK SCANNED FUCKING WHERE
ZERO ARTBOOK SCANNED FUCKING WHERE
ZERO ARTBOOK SCANNED FUCKING WHERE
ZERO ARTBOOK SCANNED FUCKING WHERE
ZERO ARTBOOK SCANNED FUCKING WHERE

wow, 100+ posts without powerlevel pasta
*clap clap*

Posting Servant Sabers in a Servant thread.

>>2065465

>>2065465