/jp/ - Otaku Culture

because her mindset doesn't match Saber's

Heroic spirits have to answer the call of the grail.

To summon a heroic spirit normally as a familiar... Would it even be forced into the Holy Grail class system? How can you control what you summon without Command Spells? How do you make sure you get Arturia? (They never figured out Avalon in HF, ya know)

nobody in that game is all too bright.

>>2043585
>(They never figured out Avalon in HF, ya know)
Come to think of it, Shirou wouldn't even have Avalon because he lost his body, right?

>>2043576
Saber isn't allowed to be happy!

>>2043590

The 3rd Sorcery body Shirou in the True end?
... Probably not.
Oh well, invaluable priceless artifact lost forever... again...

Someone post the HAREMEND.jpg

>>2043591
It's sad because it's true. Nasu is an angsty faggot.

Summon Archer.

Then Sakura can have a harem of Sempais.

>>2045239

The Shirou that went on to be Archer killed Sakura.

>>2043617
If Sacchin isn't allowed to be happy NOBODY IS.

>>2045244

No, he let Tohsaka do it.

See: Mind of Steel.

>>2043590

Unless Touko's puppets are just that good.

Or give Archer to Rin so she can get some hotdickings.

>>2043593
Wouldn't it just be buried in the rubble of that collapsed cave?

>>2043617
Yeah FUCK Nasu.

That guy sucks.

>>2045254
He probably helped kill her

>>2043576
If people actually read, they would see that servants are summoned ONLY during heaven's feel ritual.

>>2043585
If Archer had the knowledge, Shirou would have instinctively known about Avalon. Though lol idiot threw away all his memories of Saber.

Anyway, Normal!Summon would cost too much, even to Sakura's bountiful and damn-near limitless reserves. She'd have to sacrifice several dozen people to Special!Summon the Holy King of Knights.

>>2045309
And yeah, likely it is. Someone would have to find a spell method to piece it back together into its true form.

SHIRO, SUPRESS MANA IN MY ASS

>>2045654
>If Archer had the knowledge, Shirou would have instinctively known about Avalon.

Well, the only one we know becomes Archer is Mind of Steel end Shirou, and he never learns about Avalon.

>>2045654

Archer says to Shirou in UBW that Sabers sheath is protecting Shirou so he must have known.

>>2045737
Conclusion: There are multiple Archers, just like there are multiple Shirous.

>>2045309

That or Touko/mysterious unnamed puppet maker got a better deal than they were expecting.

To really call forth a heroic spirit would probably require the Third Sorcery.

The grail had to take shortcuts, putting them into classes in order to be able to call them.

>>2043593

Unless Touko's reputation of a puppet maker is true, pretty much.

>>2045879
They're all the same damn Archer, since what's being summoned in each route is only a copy of the original who would only be able to know the statistics of the event he participated in, and not the actual memories.

It's like nobody remembers UBW True or something.

>It's like nobody remembers UBW True or something.

Everyone was more focused on the Saber X Rin Mega Happy ending instead.

>>2045247

Speaking of which Sacchin's reality marble probly would have been able to take care of Sakura's mana problem.

Also this needs to happen in at least one route (see pic).

>>2046914
yeah but they don't get along.

>>2046914

It'd be analogous to trying to suck up the ocean with a dust buster.

IN BEFORE POWERLEVELS!

>>2046926
sacchin can suck mana out of dead apostles and roa, that's gotta mean something.

>>2046914
Sacchin's RM (assuming she is alive and all) absorns the mana in the ENVIRONMENT, aka you can't draw mana around to do shit.

Sakura has the souls of heroes INSIDE her(since she served as the minor grail).
She has STILL the limited output, and while she can sustain a Servant with no real problem (Servants just existing do not take TOO much energy in comparison), but summoning a new one is a no-no.

>>2046933
don't they count as being part of the environment while inside? Hence why it does stuff in meaty bread?

>>2045879
Fate Shirou becomes UBW Archer
UBW Shirou becomes HF Archer
HF Shirou becomes Fate Archer

>>2046948
so thats why fate archer hates shirou so much....

>>2046944
...No, it doesn't.
'Inside body' and 'outside' play a major role in magic, examples seen both in Tsukihime and F/SN.

And in Melty Blood, things are SCALED for gameplay effect.
Else, Shiki's drives should be OHKO, while his bar takes 3 hits.

>>2046948
Ah, that was a fun copypasta.


Fate Archer is HF Shirou.
He became a hero purely by being a badass, so no sad life, no betrayal by his ideas, no reason to take his anger on his past self.
Helps him, sacrifices himself too so Shirou can enjoy enjoy the saber putty he missed on the past.

HF Archer is UBW Shirou.
Wary of Shirou falling in the moralfag and devoid of enjoyment route, when he understand he won't suffer from the fate he was in danger himself in the past
(and the one that had condemned the Archer HE had met), sacrifices himself to save Shirou's life.
HF Shirou proceeds to become terminator.

UBW Archer is Fate Shirou.
Losing Saber, no girl, tragic fate, final destination.

>>2046971
>>2046958
>>2046948

Fate/stay Night Philosophy 101

-Fate-

Shirou: I want to save everybody!
END.

-UBW-

Shirou: I want to save everybody!
Archer: That is both a logical contradiction and a denial of the self.
Shirou: But the ideal encompasses an aesthetic that makes the endless journey worth it. Why can't I selfishly pursue selflessness?
Archer: FFFFFFFFFFFF
END.

All Archers are the same Archer. In Fate, he never gets a real chance to do Shirou in because he gets smacked by Saber and then dead by Berserker. In UBW, he obviously goes through with his plan. In HF, Shirou turns his back on being a hero, so Archer has no reason to hate and kill him.

>>2047005 In HF, Shirou turns his back on being a hero, so Archer has no reason to hate and kill him.


Stop posting this. It is incorrect.

>>2047036
'Stops following the specific ideal that doomed archer'.
Happy?

>>2047036
It's not incorrect. It's accurate.

>>2047048
That is what is wrong.

Shirou doesn't decide to give up on his ideals until Archer is long gone.

>>2047056
Archer already knew Shirou was wavering long before Archer died. He specifically tells him what it means to have an ideal and then give it up, and what would happen to Shirou afterwards.

>>2047056
I remember in HF Rin using a command seal (or maybe it was just a simple order) telling archer to protect Shirou which is why he doesn't kill him, I could be wrong though,

>>2047062
Archer is convinced that Shirou cannot live as anything but a hero. Archer just chooses to prevent an impending disaster than give into a fools hope that he could cause a paradox.

>>2047070
Wrong.

>>2047070
That's the original command seal she used which told him he had to follow all of her commands.

Also, command seals like that don't affect Archer mentally. They just make him weaker. A weak Archer could've still annihilated Shirou after Saber got taken. If he wanted to kill him, he could've at any time.

>>2047081
Archer who wants to die doesn't give a shit about things like that. He had the opportunity to nuke Shirou and then fight the shadow, all in one motion.

>>2047098 rcher who wants to die doesn't give a shit about things like that.

Exactly. Archer doesn't care about how Shirou might feel about his idealism in the future. He just wants to die. Shirou's wavering isn't going to change Archer's mind about getting out of his own hell.

>>2047120
Except in some cases, he is convinced to let go and realizes his ideal was not wrong.
UBW, remember.

>>2047120
Archer wants to die, but he also wants Shirou to grovel in despair about how useless his ideal is, too. In UBW, he says he's taking out everything on his past self because he needs to.

HF Shirou gives all signs that he's abandoning everything for Sakura. Archer won't get any satisfaction out of something like that.

Archer: You might not become a hero in the future. I'll let you live.
Shirou: TURNIN' MAH MIND TO STEEL!
Archer: FFFFFFF

Servant summoning is a branch of the 3rd magic. That's why it took the Einzberns to actually set shit up, Justicia was the one with the 3rd magic at the time.

>>2047141
and then Shirou was an Archer

>>2047120
No, Shirou wavering means that his path has already diverged from the path that Archer will take. UBW Shirou had a chance to become Archer, which is enough for Archer to believe that killing himself at that point would cause a paradox.

When Shirou wavered in his ideals, they essentially became two different people. Archer now has no reason to kill him, either from a paradox standpoint or because of the hatred of what he has become.

>>2047144
It should be possible to summon a servant without the grail, if you had sufficient mana for it. Servants are just heroic spirits from the throne with ethereal bodies.

Granting form to the soul... that's on the level of turning an ethereal body into a living one, like with Gilgamesh. Or giving a soul an absolute form, like with Shirou, which can survive without dispersing.

>>2047171
It's not just the MANA issue (which is tremendous).
Actually either reviving the original soul or making a copy is a miracle.
The Greater Grail Leeched on of teh gret magical grounds for 50 years and has one of the 3d magic users in it's core to do it.
Ample mana alone is not near enough.

>>2047187
All you need is sufficient mana to entice a heroic spirit from the throne, embody it, contract, and sustain it.

No magician can do it because none of them have that kind of supply, though. The "miracle" of the grail system allows for it by sheer force.

FUCK ALL YOUR HEROINES

where the fuck is my gil route, sharing his harem (everything) while bro fisting the motherfucking king of gold

>>2047313
>while fisting the motherfucking king of gold

>>2047213
they only answer the call to get the holy grail; do you think they'd be anyone's man-servant just because they're a giant battery?

>>2047313
Mongrels.

>>2047391
MIND OF MONGRELS

>>2047313
>where the fuck is my gil route,

Presumably the same place the Taiga, Iyla and Ayako route's are.

So...why did the world send Arturia to the Grail Wars if it knew that shit wasn't nearly good enough to call it a "Holy Grail", furthermore being summoned when it was already corrupted

tl;dr - Explain Saber's deal with the world

>>2047425
The world looks at shit objectively.
'Does this thing have UNLIMITED MAGICAL ENERGY and if channeled properly could cheat causality, intervene in time etc, even with a 1% chance?'
The answer is yes, regardless of THE AVENGING SON.
The world will try to send Saber WHEREVER she can be summoned and something that RESEMBLES a holy grail appears.
It does not care for details.

>>2047171
Wrong.

If it were just an issue of mana, Justicia would not have been as involved as she was. >>2047213
>embody it

That's where the necessity for a branch of the 3rd magic comes in. A sorcerer could whip up a facsimile heroic spirit by making it artificial if they just had a giant amount of mana, but to actually get the real deal (or even a copy of the real deal) requires a lot more than just the mana to do so.

Also what >>2047343 said.

There's also the problem of actually getting to the heroic spirits at the Throne of Heroes, to make a copy. You can't "entice" the heroic spirit because the REAL one never leaves the Throne.

>>2047441
The grail would never have been able to work without Zelretch's help either.

>>2047446
Simply enough, look how the game explain the creation of the War:
Tohsaka provided the Land.
Eisbern's provided the Grail Mechanics (Call upon the Servants)
Makiri provided the Command Spell system (aka, using a magus as the connection to call the servant and ensuring obedience)
Fucking Zelretch supervised the whole thing and probably helped to finetune it.

And it's still not working THAT well.

Why did the world had to pop up on Arturia before dying and bribe her to become a Heroic Spirit? I mean, she would've ascended after her death anyways...or would have she gone to Avalon directly had the world not interfered?

Why does the world want to collect pure Heroic Spirits in the first place, it's not like they're its bitches like the Counter Guardians.

>>2047472
The same reason you collected pokemon cards; they're kinda shiny

>>2047472
People ascend to Heroic Spirits because they are worshiped by people. The world does not choose who becomes one, nor is SERVITUDE guaranteed.
When they are called upon, it will be to save people (not strictly world's interests)

Saber requested the Deal(Grail for Service), World said 'Sure, why not'.

>>2047472

Because the world is a dick and it enjoys fucking with people.

>>2047490
That too.

>>2047465
Isn't there a line somewhere about "If it didn't work the first time it's never going to work"?

Of course, the Einzberns didn't help matters by thinking it would be cool to summon ALL EVILS OF THIS WORLD.

>>2047525
It's one of Shirou's Golden Observations.
Tohsaka marvels at the designs, but as he says 'It hasn't worked ONCE. It's flawed'.
And the Einsbern's only cared to reclaim the 3d magic somehow, as long as the Grail War happened, it was all that mattered.

>>2047525

I think the first war failed because the magi were pussies, the second failed because magi were too badass so they probably fucked up the neighbourhood, so they had to call Kotomine Risei to put a church there, but on the third one it went LOLAVENGER.

The world has become tsundere

Speaking of which, was there an explanation for why Angry Manjew looks liek Shirou?

huh?

>>2047567
During DAYTIME, he either possesed Shirou or Took his form and fucked his girls around.
Also, due to Shirou's personality, tried to solve the time loop.

>>2047559
worldfuck

I don't really know, but I think he was lacking the real Shirou to redo the war so he had to take two roles, like the rest of the shit he had to patch up in order to make a fake war.

Translations where?

Attn Whitefag: You're wrong.

Archer was more concentrated on a Probable Guardian Event in the making (the Shadow) than Shirou's faggy ass. He says so himself.

You're right about the summoning in part. It would, however, take too many pre-conditions to a point it'd be the same kind of miracle magic/spell crafting that makes super beings like Nero Chaos, Wallachia, and Roa. And you'd still end up with less bang for your buck--Sakura is the heir to the Makiri, but we're not shown that she knows how to really work the Command Seals all her own.

>>2047525
The Grail works, it just was never completed before the 4th war

In the 4th Kiritsugu destroys it, in the 5th it was finished by Ilya

>>2047187
It has WHO in it's center?

>>2048389
The Eisbern woman (homunculus) that could use the 3d magic(Justica).
Ilya and the other 'Grails' prepared by the Einsberns also have part of her (as in knowledge, check at HF when Shirou digs in for info)

>>2048153
Strictly speaking, in the 5th, it's either destroyed, gone out of control then destroyed or CLOSED by Ilya.

The closest thing to success is Ilya with the dress of Heaven inside the Grail saving Shirou.

>>2047585
...-seismic activity has been detected in the arctic, scientists say. This activity is apparently the reason volcanoes worldwide have been erupting. Details at 11.