/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>19503142
No. Humans are far more forgiving with Youkai than one would expect. The very fact they are able to make any kind of distinction between the different types is already pretty impressive.

>>19503294
Only for them to kill him

>>19503142
Youkai are literally, LITERALLY personifications of evil deeds and phenomena. They can't live in happiness and harmony because that would literally make them disappear.

>>19504410
Yes. Some Youkai can be bastards like that.

Prioritizing the safety of the self and members of one's family or social group is hardly limited to humans. Youkai are unnatural, if anything.

>>19504435
>Youkai are literally, LITERALLY personifications of evil deeds and phenomena.
Human propaganda and slander. Youkai are nice people like you or I.


>They can't live in happiness and harmony because that would literally make them disappear.
Another lie. Many Youkai are more than content living a peaceful life. Hell even a few choose to disguise themselves as humans to live among Humans

>>19503142
Hijiri has never been right. Humans only came this far in their evolution/civilization from co-operation/helping another.

Sure, Humanity can be selfish sometimes that is an animal instinct/survival instinct sometimes, but a vast majority of Humanity isn't outright malicious especially in modern times.

Humanity has a lot of compassion and understanding. It will do somethings to help others including animals, it's just that Humanity understands the plights of the Youkai, but the MAJORITY of Youkai are being ass/don't want help or to be co-operative and Humanity has the right to defend itself and get rid of them.

Yet another kuso thread by crossboarder-kun.

>>19506772
Tribalism is wrong though.

>>19509216
the one who says crossboarder is the crossboarder

>>19510673
Sounds like something a crossboarder would say.

>>19503142
She would be right if she was just an observer not belonging to any of the sides.

Since she's a human that abandoned humanity for power she's just a traitor.

>>19510965
Hijiri did nothing wrong.

>>19503142
I mean she isn't right, but she also isn't wrong

>>19510945
What's wrong with crossboarders

>>19508918
Not an argument

>>19509216
Grimdark anon?
>>19504435
>LITERALLY
>literally
>personification of evil
What you're saying isn't an argument either, and it's not true, either. The ratio of evil, horrible youkai to good, decent youkai is no different than it is for humans. Probably even better than it is for us.
>>19508918
This.
>>19510578
This. Tribalism and groupthink is what leads to the most evil and horrifying things humanity has ever committed. Co-existance, open-mindedness, and mutual cooperation are the best for everyone.
>>19509128
Evil or immoral humans may be the minority, but even the worst of youkai cannot compare to the atrocities, evil, brutality, and horror that 1-5% (pulled out of ass) of humans have brought upon the majority.
>get rid of them
Then you would be part of that 1-5%, anon. Make all the excuses about "but muh intervention and cultural hero comprex", but there will and is always some way of mutual co-existance and peace. Using violence or violent conflict as a response to anything is lazy and selfish.

Remember when Hijiri denied Yamame passage to the temple to protect her human followers?
Apparently the fandom doesn't, shes just a human sacrificing race traitor.

>>19520533
yamame did nothing wrong, hijiri is a nerd

>>19509128
This. Sure, Humanity is flawed. But if you look at the Youkai Vs Human conflict and honestly think humanity is at fault. Then there is something very wrong with you way of thinking.

Btw, this does not mean i want all Youkai to die. If they can redeem themselves, then both i and the rest of humanity would probably happily accept them.

>>19520178
>Then you would be part of that 1-5%, anon. Make all the excuses about "but muh intervention and cultural hero comprex", but there will and is always some way of mutual co-existance and peace. Using violence or violent conflict as a response to anything is lazy and selfish.
So, what, you think Humanity should have just let Youkai kill whoever they want? Just because it MIGHT be possible to one day co-existent with them? Humanity isn't the aggressor in this scenario. If Youkai refuse to co-operate and continue to attack people, there isn't really a option besides wiping them out.

>Just because it MIGHT be possible to one day co-existent with them?
>If Youkai refuse to co-operate and continue to attack people, there isn't really a option besides wiping them out

That's a dangerous train of thought that has lead to multiple mass genocides between humans and fueled Manifest Destiny and Imperialism Anon.

>>19520737
It's a dangerous train of thought, sure. But like i said, if Youkai refuse to cooperate then i can't really see any other option. Like, at least when a tribe/kingdom/country constantly attacks you and refuses to open any diplomatic channels, then you can simply conquer them and solve the problem that way. There really isn't any way to do that with Youkai. Most of whom don't even live in a society.

>>19520640
No, there shouldn't be any killing of anyone at all. This is the mindset that lead to ww2 and countless others, and there is always opportunities and ways to maintain and prolong peace and happiness, look at any conflict the past 100 years and try to find ways or opportunities to prevent it, because you will be able to find them, and if those ways had been utilized, that conflict would've not happened, so using "we had to" is a lazy excuse. Previous anon who said the youkai are people too thing is right, so think of it in those terms.

>>19521196
I agree. But, again, Youkai are the aggressors in this situation. If the situation is to resolve itself without any violence being necessary. They are going to have to be the ones to change.

>>19521073
>solve the problem that way
Answering bloodshed with even more bloodshed? More people would die that way then simply repelling the invaders, or ensuring that the conflict would never start in the first place. You do realize how insane saying that that's an acceptable turn of events is, right?
>youkai
Again, peaceful co-existance and mutual co-operation/prosperity is the only sane way to solve the issue. If your "youkai killing people" thing is true, and not just heresay, propaganda, and falsehoods from superstitious or bigoted humans, then the only sane way to stop that is with minimal force or harm, force is always a last resort, and it's failure.

>>19520533
She did it only so baka spider wouldn't ruin her reputation.

>>19521312
>More people would die that way then simply repelling the invaders
Simply repelling the invaders isn't a option if the invaders are going to keep coming back. It's even more difficult in the case of Youkai, who don't work like traditional invaders do.

> or ensuring that the conflict would never start in the first place.
Again, that isn't a option if one of the sides doesn't want peace. World War 2 would have happened no matter how many concessions France and Britain would have made.

>Again, peaceful co-existance and mutual co-operation/prosperity is the only sane way to solve the issue.
I agree. Unfortunately, Youkai do not.

>>19521448
>ww2 would have happened anyway
This may be the psychosis talking, but think of it at a bigger scale than that. If Germany hadn't been forced into starvation and economic hell by paying for the war, and the 1914-18 (forgot his name) president wouldn't have exploited the opportunity to create his "league of nation's" bullshit, and the nazi party (with Hitler) wouldn't have taken power, then that entire chain of events wouldn't have happened. If the goyims who immediately reacted to the assassanition hadn't sparked the Domino's to fall, WW1 either would've been an isolated conflict or at least nowhere near the level of horror it was. There is always a solution at some point in time, and laziness, idiocy, greediness, and selfishness are the most frequent and effective methods of sealing off those opportunities.
>youkai do not
I don't buy into your grimderp "supported-by-canon" Gensokyo, but in your Gensokyo, i doubt it's all Youkai, and it's doubtful that there isn't a way to halt or prevent further violence, to get them to agree, a solution like what could be found above, in the present. Youkai are people too, they aren't unsentient murderbugs from space or something, so that's what should be kept in mind.

>>19521537
>There is always a solution at some point in time, and laziness, idiocy, greediness, and selfishness are the most frequent and effective methods of sealing off those opportunities.
That there might have once, long ago, have been a solution doesn't change the situation we have now. You can draw the big causes of World War 1 back as far as middle ages.

>I don't buy into your grimderp "supported-by-canon" Gensokyo
That's fine. I don't buy into your "Youkai are totally innocent!" version of Gensokyo.

>but in your Gensokyo, i doubt it's all Youkai, and it's doubtful that there isn't a way to halt or prevent further violence, to get them to agree, a solution like what could be found above, in the present.
In my Gensokyo. The only possible solution to prevent the situation from escalating any more is for somebody to kill Okina and Yukari and take over Gensokyo. I don't believe Youkai are beyond redemption. But the people in charge of Gensokyo absolutely are.

>>19521609
*You can draw the big causes of World War 1 back as far as the middle ages.

>>19521609
>kill yukari and okina
If all it would take to fix grimsokyo is to dethrone them, wouldn't it be a better solution to enslave them and de-power them? That would solve your problem, without bloodshed. It's disturbing that you would rather kill them instead of finding a peaceful alternative, when it's Gensokyo, so there's definitely ways to do so, finding an alternative. Why do you type like STOP you're writing on STOP a telegraph (-gram?) STOP, again?

>>19521680
>wouldn't it be a better solution to enslave them and de-power them?
If possible, sure. But I very much doubt there is a way to de-throne and de-power them.

>Why do you type like STOP you're writing on STOP a telegraph (-gram?) STOP, again?
Because that's how you're supposed to use periods, to end a sentence.

>>19518431
They don’t look both ways before crossing the board

>>19521196
“Peace through Strength”
“Si Vis Pacem Parabellum”
“Peace demands blood”

>>19521618
Germany being more autistic than usual doesn't mean we have to go all the way back to the Middle ages to find the causes.

>>19526963
It's a bit more complex than just "Germany being autistic". But whatever, my point is that the cause for war are often hundreds of years old.

>>19527007
Anon, Germany was being more autistic than usual

>>19530315
Germany only existed for about forty years when World War 1 broke out.

>>19506772
>>19510578
Tribal/not tribal is a Prisoner's Dilemma thing.

>>19520533
The Reason why Hijiri denied Yamame passage was bullshit and everyone knows it. Yamame made one quip and Hijiri got defensive.

>>19530522
>Tribal/not tribal is a Prisoner's Dilemma thing.
A load of bull.

>>19532509
Nah. If A and B live together, then
- A and B cooperate = trust, exchange of knowledge, low corruption and other good stuff.
- A and B defect = suspicion, secrecy, high corruption from which both get some spoils.
- A cooperates, B defects = high corruption, but the spoils go exclusively to B.

>>19531728
Wow what a racist

>>19503142
Byakuren is a misguided, selfish pretender with an ingenious outward public persona. I mean, Byakuren's underlings caused a major incident complete with opening up a slipgate to Hokkai, Byakuren herself actively and consciously endangered Gensokyo during the ULiL incident for no reason but glory hogging, continues to abuse the naivete of the human villagers, and yet manages to escape retribution by carefully grooming and reinforcing her benevolent public mask.

Youkai are, functionally and analogically, a parasitic species. They depend on the human gestalt field to continue existing (whether by continued belief, fear or urban legend), and yet usually have naught but detriment to offer in return at best. There are youkai, I grant you, who make themselves useful to those who, at the end of the day, give them life, but the gross majority of youkai are noxious, if not outright hostile toward humanity.

That said I wouldn't say Byakuren is irredemable or evil as much as i'd say she's too prideful, close-minded and stubborn, she is someone who wants to be on the high horse compared to everyone else, she comes off as the kind of person who always has Holier Than Thou thoughts running through her head.

>>19535834
She's also a Buddhist (Mahayana buddhism) and Buddhism is basically nihilism.

Nihilism in Buddhism is known as "natthikavāda" and the nihilist view as "micchādiṭṭhi"

The culmination of the path that the Buddha taught was Nibbana, "a place of nothingness... nonpossession and... non-attachment... basically emptiness.

A person who has attained the goal Nibbana is thus indescribable because they have abandoned all things by which they could be described". The Suttas themselves describe the liberated mind as 'untraceable' or as 'consciousness without feature', making no distinction between the mind of a liberated being that is alive and the mind of one that is no longer alive.

>>19503142
No
Yes, naturally

The second part can be fixed however

>>19535834
I agree. And i also want to add that Byakuren is a TERRIBLE Buddhist.

>>19535893
Some types of Buddhism are a lot less nihilistic than others. Even if I do still philosophically disagree with most of them.

>>19536386
I mean, I would say we're doing a lot better than we have been for most of our history.

>>19535893
>basically emptiness.
This is correct.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori#Satori_and_kensh.C5.8D
In Buddhism, the term anattā or anātman refers to the doctrine of "non-self", that there is no unchanging, permanent self, soul or essence in living beings.
Buddhism, from its earliest days, has denied the existence of the "self, soul" in its core philosophical and ontological texts. In its soteriological themes, Buddhism has defined nirvana as that blissful state when a person, amongst other things, realizes that he or she has no self, no soul.

>>19537252
Yeah, it's things like that why i tend to not agree with Buddhism. Not having any sense of self, or anything for that matter, sounds more boring than blissful. Despite how nice they make it sound, nirvana sounds more like a fate worse than death.

>>19537515
*Despite how nice they try to make it sound, nirvana seems more like a fate worse than death to me.

Live in peace with youkai

or

Try to wipe them out and maybe get most of them but then your society and world are secretly controlled by youkai and supernatural humans (I.E. Sumireko) who are guaranteed to have preternatural abilities and rise to the top of society given they merely have the desire

Pick one

>>19537649
It doesn't work that way, anon. They might be able to control the Human Villagers, who have no real leader. But they would never be able to control humanity on a whole. And people like Sumireko are immature outcast that will never succeed at anything.

Living in peace with Youkai isn't a option anyway since Youkai can't survive without conflict.

>>19537529
Nirvana is what all people should go

>>19540841
Thank you, but no. I would rather just be reborn in this world, and help turn it into a paradise.

>>19541044
Coward

>>19503142
Never in the history of the world has a Buddhist ever been right.

>>19545722
Religious zealot.

>>19547573
I mean, they have been right about individual points sometimes. Just, never about a situation on a whole.

>>19547573
So Islam is the most based religion then?? Basically the antithesis of Buddhism. Shit now I want Aisha and Farrah for the next touhou installment

>>19535834
How do you get off on being so wrong?

>>19548414
>Basically the antithesis of Buddhism.
Thats because islam is the antithesis of litteraly anything. Fuck, islam is even the antithesis of islam (muslims killing other muslims).
Spiritual energy is a fact of this universe, the main difference is how we concieve spiritual energy, and islam fails in understanding this energy just like Buddhism does.

>>19531728
Yamame is confirmed to have eaten Humans.

>>19551462
wait, really?

>>19549699
Racist

>>19532898
The problem is that implied system doesn't have any goal, nor does it include the concept of ambitions. Though it's majorly correct

>>19549604
I like how you dont elaborate and just dismiss without contributing anything.

>>19558355
Not an argument

>>19563373
Elaborate

>>19566052
Byakuren is a misguided, selfish pretender with an ingenious outward public persona. I mean, Byakuren's underlings caused a major incident complete with opening up a slipgate to Hokkai, Byakuren herself actively and consciously endangered Gensokyo during the ULiL incident for no reason but glory hogging, continues to abuse the naivete of the human villagers, and yet manages to escape retribution by carefully grooming and reinforcing her benevolent public mask.

Youkai are, functionally and analogically, a parasitic species. They depend on the human gestalt field to continue existing (whether by continued belief, fear or urban legend), and yet usually have naught but detriment to offer in return at best. There are youkai, I grant you, who make themselves useful to those who, at the end of the day, give them life, but the gross majority of youkai are noxious, if not outright hostile toward humanity.

That said I wouldn't say Byakuren is irredemable or evil as much as i'd say she's too prideful, close-minded and stubborn, she is someone who wants to be on the high horse compared to everyone else, she comes off as the kind of person who always has Holier Than Thou thoughts running through her head.

>>19567951
How do you get off on being so wrong?

>>19570320
Not the guy, but: How do you get off being this obnoxious?

>>19570822
That's a question you should ask to the guy who invades every single lore thread to spread his gloom-and-doom vision of Gensokyo, shitting on every character people like, calling everyone who disagrees sociopathic, misguided or clueless, and generally trying to spread as much misery as possible among Touhou fans.

>>19570865
Um, anon. This person >>19567951
>>19535834 is not Reimuhater/Grimsokyofag. I know that because I'M him, and I did not make those posts. I don't even completely agree with them.

Like, while I won't pretend that i don't find it hilarious that I've become this kind of bogeyman among 4CHAN Touhou fans, just because i had the audacity to have a different opinion of Touhou. It is starting to get a bit pathetic. Stop assuming everybody that disagrees with you is me, and stop blaming me for every bit of misfortune in your life.

>>19571283
A likely story.

>>19571291
Whatever floats your boat

Youkai have saved humanity from errant gods and celestials at least twice now, in the past three years alone.

Lunarians in 2015.
Dream Tenshi who was going to destroy Earth and remake it in her own image recently.

Yahweh/your favorite god here is not confirmed to have power in Touhou don't say he would've saved Earth.

>>19577239
Youkai are a master race, unlike humans who are often afflicted with a mental disease that makes them think they are superior.

>>19577239
>Yahweh/your favorite god here is not confirmed to have power in Touhou don't say he would've saved Earth.
Going by the rules clearly established in the text, he would have both the power and the desire to save Gensokyo. Also, the Lunarian and Tenshi situation would have never happened if Youkai had just gone extinct and Gensokyo was never created.

>>19578413
Youkai are sapient memes. The only thing they are a master of is being ungrateful shits towards the race that created them.

>>19567951
So you have no argument and think that a echolalia is?
Is it that hard to present your reasonings in your own words?

>>19503142
Youkai were made by the Lunarians to do nothing but cause pain and suffering. She's arguing for the rights of weapons.

Youkai are Great
Youkai are Great
Youkai are Great
Youkai are Great
Youkai are Great
Youkai are Great
Youkai are Great

Youkai are Gay
Youkai are Gay
Youkai are Gay
Youkai are Gay
Youkai are Gay
Youkai are Gay
Youkai are Gay

>>19581948

That was a lie, only a few youkai are actually born from moonlight/Lunarians read the lore. Lunarians like to hype up their importance when they're an archaic rock tribe that without Eirin can't even defend themselves. Not even from fairies. They only have any tech because of Eirin, the "brain of the moon".

Byakuren became a youkai in an entirely different dimension from our moon.

>>19578744

That's like saying humans are ungrateful to wheat.

Youkai and gods are the apex species, more capable than a human in every regard. Many are just outright more intelligent than humans, and it takes youkai/gods only months or a couple years to accomplish what humans struggle with for decades even with thousands of engineers on the job.

See: Cold fusion, any fusion reactor at all, and gravity wave detectors. All casually created in Gensokyo for trivial tasks.

>>19582137
The word you're looking for is lesbians.

>>19582339
>That's like saying humans are ungrateful to wheat.
Wheat did not create humanity. Meanwhile, Humanity did create Youkai, and is still necessary for them to exist. Yet Youkai are still ungrateful shits.

>Youkai and gods are the apex species, more capable than a human in every regard. Many are just outright more intelligent than humans, and it takes youkai/gods only months or a couple years to accomplish what humans struggle with for decades even with thousands of engineers on the job.
Youkai and Gods have done nothing expect replicate human successes, usually years after the fact. And even then, the only reason I imagine they can do that is because they are essentially sapient memes. They lack the creativity and intelligence to invent such things themselves.

>All casually created in Gensokyo for trivial tasks.
They were created in the Outside world. The Youkai in Gensokyo just replicated it later. Saying they created it is like saying China created tanks.

>>19583359
delusional

>>19583503
I'm only pointing out that which is clearly written in the print works. Youkai are sapient memes. They can only replicate what Humanity already accomplished. And they are ungrateful twats.

Those are all 100% Canon arguments.

>>19583564
delusional, crazy

>>19583564
>They can only replicate what Humanity already accomplished.
and that's why you can buy the hourai elixir at your local grocery store

>>19520737
It's the same thing with the Native Americans.
>Continue to attack
>Get BTFO and put on a reserve
>Proceed to co-exist after finally co-operating.

>>19582339
>Youkai and God are superior species.
Is that why they die when a Human gives no fuck about them or fear them?

>>19586570

Cute human pet story.

Okina is a secret god with no shrines and has been hidden from public view for years and is still powerful enough to create youkai and change the seasons with a snap of her fingers.

Even dead youkai can be brought back at full power instantly just by someone reading about them, as happened in FS.

Human stories about youkai reliance on them are greatly overblown to make the powerless humans feel a bit better about themselves.

>>19583359

>Literally being scientifically illiterate

We just recently got a gravity wave detector and it weighs more than 1 million times that the handheld one in Gensokyo.

We don't have cold fusion.

We don't have a working, power-producing fusion reactor.

Please check facts before making humanity look even worse "kudasai"

>>19582312
But aren't all youkai affected by the moon? I remember Alice was pushing Marisa to solve the incident despite not being a traditional youkai.

>>19588981

The moon increases the power of youkai when full. It adds some magic energy to Gensokyo this way. (See LoLK where it's most visible, energy literally spewing off the full moon into the sky though the moon that time is also affected by the dream world)

Hijiri was a magician youkai in Makai with 0 light from our moon for centuries and is still pretty powerful when you fight her.

>>19588992
Hijiri knows the dark arts

>>19583701
Lunarians did that, not Youkai.

>>19588626
Nonsense. Humans being vital to Youkai's survival has been a essential part of the lore for a long ass time.

>>19588652
>We just recently got a gravity wave detector and it weighs more than 1 million times that the handheld one in Gensokyo.
It's still just a replication of outside world tech. They would have never been able to build such a device if Humans hadn't build one or came up with the hypothetical idea.

>We don't have cold fusion.
It's a hypothetical idea at the moment. Which, because of the way Gensokyo works, Kanako and co were able to build. It had nothing to do with Kanako, let alone Youkai, being "better" than humans. And it's probably going to stop working when we inevitably build one in the outside world.

Their first attempt at creating a power producing fusion reactor was a fucking disaster, and nearly resulted in a hell raven destroying all of Gensokyo. Something that would have never happened with Human scientists.

>Please check facts before making humanity look even worse "kudasai"
I have checked the facts, and i'm still sticking to my words. Youkai and Gods are incapable of doing anything except replicating feats of human ingenuity. The best thing you could say about them is that the nature of Gensokyo allows them to build things that are still only hypothetically possible. But that has nothing to do with them being smarter, let alone "better".

>>19591660
>The best thing you could say about them is that the nature of Gensokyo allows them to build things that are still only hypothetically possible.
I should add, by the way, that there is nothing stopping a Human Scientist from doing the same thing in Gensokyo. The only reason why they don't is because Youkai do everything in their power to make sure they can't. Since, the Youkai know that all it takes is one scientific revolution or leader. And even the Human villagers will be able to effortlessly exterminate them all.

>>19591660
>>19591749

Because humans can teleport the moon or create immortality medicine ??

Eirin did that.

>>19591660

>Replicating

You mean actually making something work when the sum total of human contribution is "Uhhh ummm maybe this is possible"?

I bet you think humans should get credit for universe creation because they have a multiverse theory too lmao

>>19554601
Yeah, it was in a doujin.

>its another shit touhou lore thread where most of the people have blatant misinformation and nobody corrected them because they don't actually know it is
>these people think their arguments hold water
I want to fucking die.
fuck you all

>>19591867
Yes, and Eirin is a Lunarian. Not a Youkai or a God.

>>19592077
The only reason why Kanako can make it work is because it's still a hypothetical idea, and Gensokyo is a land where fantasy becomes reality. She could probably build a working version of the Millenium Falcon as well. And the only reason why she's able to do any of that is because Humans came up with the idea or invented it first.

>>19592267
Then how about you actually point out the blatant misinformation? If you can back it up with text, you might be able to kill these discussions.

>>19594312
I try doing that every thread. Funny enough, no matter how much of the canon I refer to, people tend to say whatever they can to not be wrong in the situation. But here, I'll give it a shot.
>>19504435
>Youkai are literally, LITERALLY personifications of evil deeds and phenomena. They can't live in happiness and harmony because that would literally make them disappear.
Completely incorrect. That's exactly what Gensokyo is. And if I really need some written proof besides every single piece of work, PMiSS talks about how in order for youkai to continue existing in harmony, a lot of them do 'fake kidnappings' or scare humans on occasion. They are evil only in name at this point. Are there some who still do evil? Yeah, but only a part doesn't make the sum like that.
>>19520593
>But if you look at the Youkai Vs Human conflict and honestly think humanity is at fault.
What conflict? The humans live in the village and the youkai protect it from all manner of things including natural disasters and any lone wolf youkai that don't stick to the rules. Youkai and humans have a symbiotic relationship.

Honestly, there's a whole bunch of posts with this idea of 'youkai are made of evil' garbage. I'l just leave that argument at that. They aren't made of evil, they're made of human fear/emotion.

>>19597116
cont.
All the really dumb comparisons to old wars and politics are also really dumb. I would suggest to those anons to read up on political theory specifically the Realist paradigm since that might be simple enough for their brains.

>Yukari and Okina are 'in charge' of the youkai and killing them would do anything good
Only thing that would probably do is destabilize Gensokyo. Almost everything Yukari does is to prevent bloodshed and maintain peace for everyone with the minimal amount of conflict. Youkai that each humans receive a supply of sucial ones from her. She went through the effort of saving Kosuzu simply so she wouldn't die. She came up with the spellcard rules, which stopped actual extermination and fights tot he death for a lot of youkai. The 'Yukari is evil' thing is probably one of the silliest fan ideas out there.

>>19597116
>PMiSS talks about how in order for youkai to continue existing in harmony, a lot of them do 'fake kidnappings' or scare humans on occasion. They are evil only in name at this point.
They still need to emulate those odious acts in order to continue existing. It's a substitute that, turns out, is workable, but the reason for its employment in the first place is that youkai are, in fact, a parasitic species sustained entirely by continued evil.

>>19597116
>Youkai and humans have a symbiotic relationship.
>symbiotic
It's only symbiotic because the Village is artificially retarded and kept ignorant compared to the rest of the world. It's no more symbiotic than having a sex slave in the basement whom you regularly feed and break the legs of every odd week so they can't run away.

Some yokais are completely benevolents, some are harmless, some are neutral, etc

>>19504435
From Wakasagihime's official profile:
>A quiet and composed freshwater mermaid.
>Normally a quietly living youkai that sings songs and picks up stones.
>They are not an enemy of humans.

>>19597677
>mermaid
>youkai
How the hell does that make sense?

Quoting the same thing you did, before you ask.

>>19588652
All that stuff in Gensokyo is literally powered by bullshit Magic and not Science based on the laws of Reality and the Cosmos.

>>19597703
Youkai is a very vague classification. Almost any traditional supernatural creature counts as a youkai. It doesn't have to be Japanese.

>>19597596
>keeping them alive and protecting them
>evil
I would say that's not evil in the slightest. Nobody gets hurt from it, and they protect the village. It's the best case for both of them.
>>19597607
It's symbiotic. You could argue it as parasitic, but that would imply only the youkai benefit.
Humans get:
>protection from natural disasters
>assures they will always have food
>prevention of large-scale panic in any form
>medicine for diseases and such
>youkai even bring attractions and information to the village
In your words, the government of a country holds their people in the same manner because not everything is released to the people.

>>19597703
Are you a newfag ?

I'd rather oneechan Yukarin looking after me than Big Brother.

>>19597116
Thanks for putting in the effort. Even if do still disagree with a lot of what you say.

>That's exactly what Gensokyo is. And if I really need some written proof besides every single piece of work, PMiSS talks about how in order for youkai to continue existing in harmony, a lot of them do 'fake kidnappings' or scare humans on occasion.
The way Gensokyo is described in the PMISS doesn't really match any portrayal of Gensokyo in later print works. Most noticeably FS and SoPM, both of which seem to flat out ignore most of the PMISS Monologue.

>>19597194
>Almost everything Yukari does is to prevent bloodshed and maintain peace for everyone with the minimal amount of conflict. Youkai that each humans receive a supply of suicidal ones from her.
The idea that Yukari "Only" steals suicidal people has no textual basis, and is in fact downright contradicted by canon. There is also no evidence that Youkai NEED to kill people. It's true that she does care about Gensokyo, and often finds a more peaceful resolution to problems when it suits her goals. But she is still a evil mass murdering sociopath. One that deserves to die for her crimes against humanity, both in and outside Gensokyo.

>>19597856
>It's symbiotic
No, it's really not. Like the other anon pointed out, It's more like a master/slave relationship. There is nothing the Human Villagers have in Gensokyo, expect arguably protection from natural disasters, that they would not have in the outside world. And countless things that they would have in the outside world that they do not have in Gensokyo. If every Youkai in Gensokyo was killed and the barrier was destroyed, the Human Villagers would benefit immensely. Meanwhile, if the Human Village was destroyed, the Youkai would die out. A relationship of that nature IS parasitic.

>>19599169
your mum

>>19586483
Anon, The Americans genocided the Native Americans.

>>19599169

Imagine being such an ignorant human that you assert things that are blatantly false.

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Road_of_Reconsideration

Youkai wait around here because it's where the humans drop in. And spoilers, they're suicidal.

The depressed are even extra tasty according to this.

>>19599169
>Most noticeably FS and SoPM, both of which seem to flat out ignore most of the PMISS Monologue.
Examples please?
>The idea that Yukari "Only" steals suicidal people has no textual basis, and is in fact downright contradicted by canon.
I never said only. She does opt for suicidal ones and ones on their deathbed with no relatives though.
>But she is still a evil mass murdering sociopath. One that deserves to die for her crimes against humanity, both in and outside Gensokyo.
How? 'Evil mass murdering sociopath' is not only very hyperbolic, but just outright false. She has a set of values that she follows and seeks peace. That statement is so far out there I don't even know where to begin with arguing against it because there's no proof of her murdering anybody, and I don't think you understand what a sociopath is.
>It's more like a master/slave relationship.
That's your opinion on how you view it, if anything. By definition of symbiotic, it IS symbiotic. Doesn't mean they both have to be aware of it. A symbiotic relationship is one where 'both parties benefit from each other.'

And please, tell me this isn't the anon that was arguing about Yukari 'not having planned the events of SSiB' in that other dumb thread.

>>19601380
this moralfag argues a lot of bologne on the jay, especially about yukarin, so probably

>>19601369
>And spoilers, they're suicidal
So Yukari Claims.

>>19601404

Why would they appear on the road of reconsideration if not suicidal? That's the Yama's domain, not Yukari's.

>>19601560
Why do so many suicidal people jump off bridges only to regret their decisions seconds later?

Every human is a slave to History, anon.

>>19601568

That's the funny part. People on the road of reconsideration "reconsider" but then get eaten by youkai anyways.

>>19601673
Being slave to Keine doesn't sound that bad.

>>19601691
A shrine-maiden is Keine slave.

Keine, that is, the unconscious, general, hive life of history that she eats and creates, uses every moment of the life of shrine-maidens as a tool for its own purposes.

Though Reimu at that time, during the events of th06, was more convinced than ever that it depended on her, verser (ou ne pas verser) le sang de ses peuples*- as the Remilia expressed it in the last letter she wrote her- she had never been so much in the grip of inevitable laws, which compelled her, while thinking that she was acting on her own volition, to perform for Keine- that is to say, for everything that she eats and creates- whatever had to be performed.

>>19601754

Keine puts out illusions that Yukari automatically sees through though.

>>19602042
I said shrine-maidens were history slaves, and that Reimu was the one who thought all actions depended upon her while Remilia just sent the letter

>>19601754
Can I be a shrine maiden then?

>>19601369
Go read that article again. The people that end up at the road of reconsideration are not people that TRIED to commit suicide, and were then spirited away by Yukari. The people that end up there DID commit suicide. They're basically being given one last chance to rethink their decision before being send to the afterlife,

>>19601380
>She does opt for suicidal ones and ones on their deathbed with no relatives though.
Do you have any evidence for that?

Although, even if it is true, then she "usually" spirits away people of that nature. Then she's still a mass murdering monster that targets the weak and helpless. For no other reason than because she feels like it.

>there's no proof of her murdering anybody
From her PCB character profile:
>When humans from the outer world wander into Gensokyo, it's all thanks to fluctuations in the boundary caused by Yukari. There is an enchanting element about the phenomenon which people like to call "Spirited Away"

From her PMISS article:
>As she can freely visit the outside world, it's speculated that she attacks humans in the outside world

From the PCB phantasm stage:
>Yukari: "I'm still in bad shape as I've just awakened from my hibernation."
>Marisa: "Did you store a lot of honey before hibernation, or something?"
>Yukari: "Human."

>Yukari: "But sometimes things do drift in."
>Sakuya: "...is there a sea around here?"
>Yukari: "Like human children, or adults."

>By definition of symbiotic, it IS symbiotic.
If in a relationship X would benefit immensely from the complete destruction of Y, while Y would die out from the complete destruction of X. Then, the relationship is not symbiotic.

The Human Villagers would ONLY benefit from Youkai dying out.

>And please, tell me this isn't the anon that was arguing about Yukari 'not having planned the events of SSiB' in that other dumb thread.
No. She might be evil to the core, but she is a smart girl.

>Examples please?
The whole point of that monologue is that Youkai and Humans totally get along nowadays, and that any conflict between the two is fake. But in both FS and SoPM it's made clear that Youkai and Human relationships are hostile enough that Youkai have to use disguises when visiting the village, and that Youkai are terrified of the Human Villagers growing more powerful. At the same time, it's also made clear that the Human Villagers are basically treated like glorified fear cattle, with no mention being made of "mock duels" or "fake abductions".

>>19605023
>Do you have any evidence for that?
PMiSS. I've already said this.

I'll just go through all your 'times she's killed'
>When humans from the outer world wander into Gensokyo, it's all thanks to fluctuations in the boundary caused by Yukari. There is an enchanting element about the phenomenon which people like to call "Spirited Away"
Where in this does it say she kills? She just causes spiriting away. When this happens, people usually just go back after a day or so since they can't remain on the other side. Some actually settle in the village, but most return. Nowhere there does it state she kills anyone via spiriting away.
>As she can freely visit the outside world, it's speculated that she attacks humans in the outside world
Speculated. This is told from Akyuu's perspective. The reason she says this is because she's not actually sure where she gets her food.
>PCB stage dialogue
This is probably the only one that holds any water, but I would argue that she's bantering as usual. She stores human for food, but she generally doesn't eat humans from the other side.
>symbiotic arguement
The fact that some outsiders settle down in the human village just shows that some people actually do prefer it there. So, no. Symbiotic.
This is the reason why I figured you were that anon. Most of your arguments are arguing over semantics. Which is beyond dumb. It's like arguing over whether a car is red or a dark orange.
>Youkai and Human relationships are hostile enough that Youkai have to use disguises when visiting the village
That's not hostility. That's them not wanting to cause a panic. Youkai visit the village all the time, all knowing they are youkai. Some notable examples are Alice who puts on puppet shows on occasion, and Yuuka who visits the shops. You've only added to my point with this. There is no hostility. Just feigned hostilities.

And, while this has been fun, I'm probably gonna call it with this one since I don't think I can convince you, no matter how much canon I throw.

>>19605275
>I'm probably gonna call it with this one since I don't think I can convince you, no matter how much canon I throw.
Frankly, I feel the same way. And since i'm not in the mood for another long ass green text argument, I'm just going to end it here. We have a different interpenetration of canon, and neither one of us is going to change our mind about that any time soon.

>>19604461
Yes, you can be anything anon.

>>19597799
If I'm the only black guy in Gensokyo does that make me an automatic Youkai? I'm pretty sure nobody in Gensokoyo has heard of an African or a Human with dark skin.

>>19605426
Your interpretation of canon sucks. I recommend finding a new occupation for your time than retarded greentext wars over your blantant misunderstanding of canon from which you refuse to move on. That is to say, please go and stay go, or at least shut up, 'kudasai.'

>>19606000
More likely you would be a human with minor powers like Kosuzu. You could be a genuine magical negro.

>>19606262
>More likely you would be a human with minor powers like Kosuzu. You could be a genuine magical negro.
I have blue prints, notes, and designs on how to construct modern firearms, bullets, gunpowder, bullet casings, parts, and the machines for them. Introducing firearms and opium to the poor village ghetto.

>>19503142
/jp/ may not like the answer, but she is right.

>>19606488
What would be his spell card?

>>19606000
You could turn into a youkai and compete with Rumia for the title of youkai of darkness.

>>19606000
Nigga, you can become whatever you want. Even shrine maiden.

>>19610132
The 12 Gauge

>>19610132
/k/ memes

>Selling firearms and ammunition to Human villagers
What is the worst that can happen honestly?

I think there's more bad youkai than good, which explains why humans cant go far from the human village without danger. Humans are basically enslaved in gensokyo to give like to the youkai. Humans can't just leave the village and go coexist with the youkai, most of them will be devoured.

>>19612380
The youkai would kill the dealer(s) and remove that technology completely before it ever got anywhere.

>>19608074
I like this Reimu.

>>19606055
My interpretation of Canon is way better than 99% of the people on this board. I'm not going anywhere.

>>19612380
Nothing. I'm pretty sure they already have pre-modern firearms and ammunition. And they lack the industrial capacity to make modern weaponry.

>>19612429
Also this.

>>19612426
Most Youkai are basically sociopaths, and they have indeed basically enslaved the Human Villagers. Who, for extra irony, used to be their greatest enemy.

Still, on a whole I don't think most "bad" Youkai want to cause suffering and pain. It's just what they do, and they lack the intelligence to question their own actions. And then occasionally you have complete monsters like Yukari.

>>19612426
If Youkai are sociopaths than the Human villagers to survive must be sociopaths as well. What is even worse is the Yama supports this shitty system as Humans in Gensokoyo will most likely be reborn in Gensokoyo.

When in Gensokoyo morality, ethics, and religion are spooks. Go edgelord and free your people.

>>19616472
>If Youkai are sociopaths than the Human villagers to survive must be sociopaths as well.
The Human Villagers have never really acted like sociopaths though. They always seemed like relatively decent people.

And yes, the Yama are twats who seemingly
all support this system. Eiki is a massive hypocrite about it as well.

>as Humans in Gensokoyo will most likely be reborn in Gensokoyo.
When was this ever said?

>>19605023
>Go read that article again. The people that end up at the road of reconsideration are not people that TRIED to commit suicide, and were then spirited away by Yukari. The people that end up there DID commit suicide. They're basically being given one last chance to rethink their decision before being send to the afterlife,
So,
If I kill myself, go to the road of reconsideration, regret the decision and be sent to the afterlife ( Hakugyokurou), will I be able to techinically live in Gensokyo?

>>19616861
eikisama is a good girl who's spying on you and I at this very moment and judging your sin properly
>>19617263
as long as you have self-awareness you can always ghost off somewhere probably, though komachi might come for ya

>>19617263
>If I kill myself, go to the road of reconsideration, regret the decision and be sent to the afterlife ( Hakugyokurou), will I be able to techinically live in Gensokyo?
No.If you regret your decision, you come back to life. Then you either retrace your steps and leave Gensokyo, or a Youkai catches you and eats you for lunch.

>>19617513
Eiki is not a good girl. She openly encourages Youkai to attack people.

If I remember correctly strong emotions can transform you into a Youkai.

If I have nothing except disdain and hate in my heart for everything can I accidentally a Youkai myself?

>>19620536
>If I have nothing except disdain and hate in my heart for everything can I accidentally a Youkai myself?
No. You do need to put in a bit more effort.

>>19504435
not all

>>19582339
>and gravity wave detectors.
/sci/ said that was bullshit

>>19591660
>It's still just a replication of outside world tech. They would have never been able to build such a device if Humans hadn't build one or came up with the hypothetical idea.
that was the doing of lunarians anon, a (supposely) far more avanced subspecies of humans

>>19606488
unless you are a kind of space orangutan you first need to make the tools for the tools for the tools and a way to get good measures to not get shoot in the face testing your things

>>19620536
no, you make birth to youkai, in order to become one is nessesary doing a bit of magic

>>19621074
/sci/ is saying a lot of bullshit.

>>19621124
>in order to become one is nessesary doing a bit of magic

>>19621074

Bullshit or not, Eirin made a handheld one in her spare time.

>>19621124
>>19620542
I thought common sense didn't apply in Gensokoyo and you can do whatever.

>>19621827
Common sense doesn't apply, yes. But that doesn't mean NO logic applies. Even Fairy Tale Logic is still a form of logic.

>>19621185
Eirin is also a lunarian. Not a Youkai or a God, but basically a more advanced Human.

>>19621124
Isn't Parsee literally a Youkai born from a human woman being dumped and jealous?

>>19503142
I mean at least get original bait at this point, man.

>>19624068
She might be

>>19624068
Isn't that a doujin?

Byakuren's Buddhism is the only long-term sustainable solution for Gensokyo. most Youkai are completely at the mercy of human emotion and thoughts, but with Buddhism They can find a mean to sustain their existence and create an identity that is not based off humans. For example Shou was originally just a tiger youkai based off the perceptions of what people thought a tiger was, if Shou didn't find Buddhism then when people found out what a tiger actually was she would have either drastically changed or stopped existing entierly.

>>19630262
Yeah but they could also become hermits, devils(makaian), gods, probably fucking fairies or humans, etc.
Shut up t. Byakuren.

>>19630231
No. The Hashime is described as such:
>The Hashime is a lonely wife pining for her husband / lover to return but due to his infidelity, she became jealous and turned into a demon.

She got cucked, got jelly, and turned into a Youkai. So strong emotions can turn you into a youkai.

I would bury my dick in Parsee though.

>>19632996
>Once, she was the protector, or guardian spirit, of the pit linking the underworld with the overworld. She watched over people to make sure that they could get to the underworld and back to the overworld safely.
>However, as she is extremely jealous, she couldn't stand the people who looked like they were having fun going to and fro. Whenever she saw someone like that, she would hinder their travel somehow.
>Jealousy only begets further jealousy, so as she went mad from her own jealousy, she became able to fan the flames of jealousy in the hearts of others.
Didn't know that was the origin of the youkai Parsee is based on, but the origin of Parsee is entirely different.
>I would bury my dick in Parsee though.
Me too anon, me too...

The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies. However, the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.

>>19632140
not an argument

>>19630262

>Most youkai are completely at the mercy of human emotion and thoughts

Entire cities of youkai underground with no humans, many weak ones just living in caves never seen by human eyes

Mamizou's insignificant as fuck tanukis were fine in the literal outside world in year friccin 2010

"Youkai rely on US, WE have the power!" Is t. human's most pathetic propaganda shitpost.

>>19639494
"Humanity, fuck yeah!" is a mental disease. Pay that gibbering madman no mind.

>>19639517

Well said patrician.

>>19639517
>Humanity fuck yeah is a disease
>Humanity drove the Youkai and Gods to Gensokoyo and took over the world
>Humanity can kill all life on the planet twenty times over.
>Youkai just copy all of humanity's inventions and ideas.
>Humanity will end up leaving the solar system and colonizing the moon
>Its jusr a disease, bro.
T. Scared Youkaishit

Liberation of Gensokoyo soon you little shit.

>>19640248
Oorah!

I do not understand the Youkai logic. They automatically assume the moment a leader like figure rises in the Human village that they would cause a revolt against the youkai.

Ignoring the part where is this leader is going to get the power to dodge assassinations and shit. Why do you the Youkai think its a good idea to keep the human village divided into factions they control when all it will do is cause fighting between them and allow the Human villagers being able to catch on to their tricks easier.

Wouldn't it be easier for the Youkai to let the Human village unite under a Human who is secretly pro-youkai and then support them in the shadows to make it look as if they are helping the village grow and can keep them all crowded? Then if the Humans try to rise up btfo the leader, have a new one rise up for the village recovery and repeat?

Maybe I am just dumb, but the current system looks like its going to blow up in the Youkai face and Gensokoyo will become a battleground.

>>19597856
>>protection from natural disasters
>>assures they will always have food
>>prevention of large-scale panic in any form
>>medicine for diseases and such
All of this is provided by human civilisation in the Outside World, without the need to sustain deadly parasites.

>>19639494
>Entire cities of youkai underground with no humans, many weak ones just living in caves never seen by human eyes
1: The villagers still believe in them, and are afraid of them 2: Outsiders might sometimes end up in the underground.

>Mamizou's insignificant as fuck tanukis were fine in the literal outside world in year friccin 2010
Tanuki are also incredibly famous. And I'm pretty sure quite a few children still believe in them.

>Youkai rely on US, WE have the power!" Is t. human's most pathetic propaganda shitpost.
Youkai needing Human Emotions to survive has been canon for more than a decade already.

>>19639517
Youkai apologism is the true mental disease.

>>19641629
The thing you have to understand is that "The Youkai" don't actually have any kind of leader. Even the Youkai sages don't have any official authority, they're just strong enough to kill anybody that disagrees with them.

If they were to unite the Human Villagers under a single pro Youkai puppet leader. Then who the puppeteer ends up being would radically change the balance of power in Gensokyo.

With that said, I do agree that the current status quo is unsustainable in the long term. Even overlooking the fact that the only thing keeping the Human Village from collapsing as a society is hope. All it takes is for them to realise the true nature of their existence, and Gensokyo as we know it is basically finished.

>>19642383
Youkai Unification under a Pro-Youkai Human looking to unify and manipulate the Human Village to maintain Gensokoyo when?

>>19643030
I don't know. When Reimu finally decides to just take over everything?

From where does Shinki derive her power?

>>19643079

She's at least the 13th Hakurei maiden, and if she tries to take over we'll have a 14th tomorrow.

>>19642233

>Tiny amounts of faith from occasional humans popping in and "oh yeah these guys far away exist" is enough to keep an entire city of oni at full power

Could just keep a few humans chained up then

And then how about Makai, which most humans don't even know about?

Youkai are basically what would happen if man made god in his image, so no, humans are not anymore evil than youkai, and vice versa.

>>19643675
Humans do make Gods in their own image.

>>19643637
It would be risky. But I don't know any better pro youkai human to unify Gensokyo.

>>19643757
yeah but in this case the gods actually have a material form, as in you can cum inside cirno

>>19643652
>Could just keep a few humans chained up then
They might do that. Keep a few spirited away outsiders around as slaves so they don't all disappear.

Also, the Oni are still frequently acknowledged and feared by the villagers. Even if they haven't seen them for a while.

>And then how about Makai, which most humans don't even know about?
Hard to say what Makai even if in the new canon expect "The Place where Byakuren was sealed". But going by the PC-98 games, It might actually be the christian version of Hell. Which would answer how they get enough fear to survive.

>>19643675
Youkai are a lot more inclined to do evil than Humans though.

>>19643757
Also true.

>>19643852
only because youkai in this case are more powerful, but when humans are put in places of equivalent power, without any sort of supervision or control, do we not see this same evil?

The difference between a man-eating youkai and a SS-Soldier is not that far.

>>19643914
>The difference between a man-eating youkai and a SS-Soldier is not that far.
The difference between a man eating youkai and a SS-Soldier is that the former was born to do evil things, while the latter was taught to do them.

A SS-Soldier is also a lot more dangerous than a man eating Youkai. Who are not that different from simple animals that do what their instinct tells them to do. On that same note though, a Intelligent Youkai who still chooses to do evil is far more dangerous than any single human individual ever could be. As even the most insane and murderous dictator is still a frail human, relying on the support of others to maintain their power.

>>19643994
youkai exists out of human belief, which is ironically somewhat similar since dictators retain power from the belief and trust their subjects have in them.

but an SS-Soldier was not taught evil, in his eyes what he was doing was for the good for his party, or even a part of nature, similarily man eating youkais do not perceive their actions as evil, but merely their "nature"

naturally, humans fed this do not always submit , some question and realise the inhumanity, again youkai that are self-aware of their man-eating nature, but also understand the pain and suffering they share with humans, do have a real choice to continue this evil or break from it.

>>19644084
>youkai exists out of human belief, which is ironically somewhat similar since dictators retain power from the belief and trust their subjects have in them.
Most dictatorial regimes usually retain power less from the general population, like Youkai do, but from a few select loyal individuals that are placed in the right places.

>but an SS-Soldier was not taught evil, in his eyes what he was doing was for the good for his party, or even a part of nature, similarly man eating youkais do not perceive their actions as evil, but merely their "nature"
The thing is; Man eating Youkai don't actually, like, think about their actions. They just do them, without really feeling the need to perceive them one way or another. That's the reason why they're so quickly inclined to do bad deeds, but also the reason why they can be so easily convinced to stop with a simple act of kindness. Most Humans meanwhile do feel the need to justify their actions. And when they find such a justification, it can be VERY hard for them to stop.

>>19644173
but it still relies on a level of faith and belief, although not as direct as a youkai I will give you that.

desu i feel youkai have some writing gaps in them, if they can understand acts of kindness it seems to indicate that they understand humans exist in a similar way to themselves, so very much man-eating youkais are indeed "evil", as opposed to just acting on their nature.

>>19644218
Well, think of it like this: Most Youkai live alone, have no family or friends, and have to fight to survive their entire life. They might simply not understand the concept of kindness until somebody gives them something to eat.

Obviously, that wouldn't be the case for every Youkai. Some of which do have family. A few even used to be human. While those often play by their own weird rules, I don't think it's unfair to call those evil.

>>19644283
I guess less humanoid youkais would be more animalistic, but the likes of rumia and cirno seem like they would understand humans even from a childish perspective.

I mean, I would assume they might not eat humans if it meant sparing them would bring the promise of an eventual reward like sweets etc.

>>19615829
Jesus, you're arrogant.
>>19598931
Damn straight.

>>19644303
Nothing seems to indicate Rumia particularly understands Humans. Cirno meanwhile is a Fairy, and those are largely inclined to be (mostly) harmless pranksters.

>I mean, I would assume they might not eat humans if it meant sparing them would bring the promise of an eventual reward like sweets etc.
Maybe. But again, I think it's more the act of being given something that tends to affect them so much. As Youkai enjoy the taste of Human flesh above all other possible food.

Then again, for some Youkai it might just be a weird honour kind of thing. Like, if you catch a Rabbit and it offers to give you food in return for its life. Then it would be kind of a dick move to refuse.

>>19644387
I'm only arrogant because i'm right.

And while Yukari might not be as bad as big brother. She's still a lot worse than most politicians.

Most politicians don't have the kind of responsibility Yukari has. She's protecting an entire world and billions of humans (End of life in Gensokyo would lead to purification of the entire Earth according to ZUN in LoLK interview)

And some ignorant people disrespect her because her system allows a few people to die? More than 700 people a year are killed by toasters.

>>19644401
it would'nt be implausible to make a sweet that tasted like the freshest human meat.

>>19644498
Maybe if you make it out of pomegranates.

>>19644489
>She's protecting an entire world and billions of humans (End of life in Gensokyo would lead to purification of the entire Earth according to ZUN in LoLK interview)
I think you might be misunderstanding what he actually said in that interview. The LoLK crisis would have never happened anyway if Gensokyo and Yukari didn't exist.

>And some ignorant people disrespect her because her system allows a few people to die? More than 700 people a year are killed by toasters.
There's a difference between having people die because they do something stupid with a toaster. And making a toaster designed to kill people just because you find it entertaining.

>>19643914
>Di we not see the same evil.
90% of the time no we the fuck don't. There has been a lot of Roman dictators with absolute power who do good and then let it all go. See >>19509128

Humans might do fuck up stuff sometimes, but majority of the time its all good. Youkai are being evil shits just to be evil shits with a minority being good of their own accord.

>>19644563
How about I post it instead

"Hmm, would the Lunarians continue to sleep, or would they do a full-blown relocation of the capital to Gensokyo...? Would they completely overtake Gensokyo? In that case, there wouldn't be any living things in Gensokyo, and that would affect the outside world, too. That would end up causing the purification of the planet. Since she didn't want to do that, she only threatened to purify Gensokyo."

The outside world relies on the fantasy side of the barrier to exist as well. This is direct ZUN, not interpretable as a character's overstatement. If there are no living things in Gensokyo, the entire Earth dies.

>>19644572
good depends on perspective, in the eyes of a youkai we are nourishment, thus good for them to eat us

*Chomps burger* *Puts veal cut in the oven*

*Types on keyboard made by child slave laborers overseas*

Yeah see any creature that makes a way of life by exploiting others is just irredeemable evil ok.
-t. humanposter

>>19644595
That's not what he's saying, anon. If the Lunarians purified Gensokyo, then it would also blow over and purify the rest of the planet (assuming a powerful deity doesn't put a stop to it, which they would) as well. It doesn't mean that if everybody died in Gensokyo, everybody would drop dead in the outside world as well.

Like, you do realise Gensokyo and the Outside world are not mirrors, right? Every time a earthquake happens in Indonesia or Chile, hundred of villagers don't just suddenly drop dead.

>>19644700

Reading comprehension.

"In that case, there wouldn't be any living things in Gensokyo, and that would affect the outside world, too."

What is affecting the outside world?
1. Lunarians
2. There being no living things in Gensokyo

Sorry if what ZUN said doesn't fit your ideas about how the barriers work.

>>19644610
The whole "good is in the eye of the beholder" thing is actually complete nonsense according to most schools of philosophical and religious thought. Even more damming than that however is that Youkai are the result of Human ideas and believes, with some being explicitly considered evil and good. Meaning our ideas of morality does absolutely apply to them.

>>19644750

*Some youkai are the result of human ideas and beliefs

Touhou has mythical beings existing long before humanity.

>>19644726
Neither, what's affecting the outside world is that if Gensokyo is purified the rest of the world is next.

Like, your idea of how the barrier works is obviously wrong. If somebody dies in Gensokyo, it does not mean somebody else dies in the outside world as well. And if the outside world ends up in a nuclear war, it does not mean Gensokyo is nuked as well.

>>19644634
This is news, how?
>>19644413
The average politician would roll over and let big brother do the 1984 if it benefited them, their interests, their agenda, and their lives. As long as they're free from the consequences, they couldn't give a shit about average joe, unless he is of benefit to them, Yukari actually gives a shit about Gensokyo and everyone/thing within it, if she didn't, then she wouldn't have gone through the trouble of saving/protecting any Youkai or humans except for herself and maybe her closest confidants. The average politician wouldn't have cared to create the Great Hakurai Barrier, if they had the means to survive and thrive otherwise.

>>19644771
No, it doesn't. The only reason why they think that they are is because people believe them to have existed before humanity. Which is, obviously, impossible since also need Humanity to survive.

>>19644782
Amatsukami existed long before humanity IE Eirin and Chang'e, whose true names can't even be spoken by human tongue.

>>19644778
The average politician is more likely to be misguided than genuinely uncaring. And plenty of politicians do care about the average man.

Yukari meanwhile is a sociopath mass murderer that only cares about using Gensokyo to keep herself alive, and using it as a means to dominate and control both Youkai and Humans.

>>19644772

It's not 1:1, but there are balances. Like when Sumireko comes in and a human from Gensokyo is "Humaned away".

To be honest it doesn't matter how stupid you think it sounds, ZUN said loss of life in Gensokyo would result in purification of the outside world.

>>19644797

But literally no powerful youkai even need the barrier. Mamizou wasn't on the brink of fading when she came in in 2011.

>>19644788
Do you have any proof for that? And try and remember, a lot of characters are under the false belief that they existed before humanity.

>>19644818

ZUN said Eirin is Omoikane, and Omoikane was around when there were still ten suns (Pre having them shot down by Hou'yi)

Also the event that killed Junko's son.

All this stuff is real in the Touhou universe, get over it. No amount of shouting "THAT IS FAKE, JUST HUMAN BELIEF!" Will stop a god from stabbing you, or stop Sumireko from hitting you with a telephone pole on the streets of a busy city.

>>19644489
>Most politicians don't have what Yukari has
Did you literally forget about the Cuban Missile Crisis and how if one of our politicians fuck up we can all get nuked?

>>19644803
There are some weird balances in special circumstances. But that's about it.

>To be honest it doesn't matter how stupid you think it sounds, ZUN said loss of life in Gensokyo would result in purification of the outside world.
No, what he said is that loss of life would have a effect on the outside world. The effect being that the entire planet would end up purified as well. If every Youkai, Human, God, and Fairy dropped dead tomorrow and Gensokyo was completely and utterly destroyed by ten thousand nuclear bombs, it would have zero effect on the outside world.

>>19644839
Again, the only reason those things "happened" is because Humans believe they happened. That's how a story works once you establish that supernatural creatures can't exist without humans around to support them.

>>19644842

You are twisting ZUN's words to make it not say something you don't want it to say. The fantasy-reality barrier affects the entire Earth, as stated in basic knowledge of fantastic worlds 2015.

>>19644815
Mamizou doesn't need it because Tanuki are famous enough that they still get enough belief in the outside world. The same is not true for most Youkai.

>>19644839
If this is all real then there is no point in Gods hiding themselves and not being with their followers in the outside world or Gensokoyo.

Not that Anon.

>>19644841

He thinks one event compared to all human politicians ever disqualifies "most"

Why do you think "all" wasn't used?

>>19644852
It affects the planet, sure. But not in the way you describe. It's basically just a method to draw Youkai to Gensokyo the more Human Society grows.

>Japanese gods are real
>Does nothing when every part of Japan is nuked and fire bombed into oblivion
Really makes you think

>>19644797
Couldn't Yukari easily have just left all the other Youkai to fade away in the outside world? Couldn't she easily have just made a smaller or simpler version of Gensokyo for herself to live in? She certainly made much more effort then the average politician would, the average politician would've just done the lowest-effort/lowest-risk choice and be done with it. Truly selfless politicians who place the life and prosperity of the average joe above their lives, their agendas, their goals, their popularity, their greed, their parties, and their prosperity are the exception to the rule, and Yukari definitely values the lives and prosperity of those within Gensokyo much more than the average politicker could ever manage.

>>19644885

>God is real
>Does nothing when followers kill each other
Really makes you think

>>19644841
Why did you feel the need to add "literally" to that?

>>19644750
the most destructive war in history was backed by a people that at the time believed it was good for them to trample on other sovereign nations how is it complete nonsense?

Touhou is not anthropocentric.

There are beings in worlds with no humans. Makai is its own thing, and has its own creator god not in any human legends.

No, parallels that somewhat-maybe-kinda-mirror it like Christian hell would not create Makai itself.

>>19644895
>Couldn't Yukari easily have just left all the other Youkai to fade away in the outside world?
That would still kill her in the long term.

>Couldn't she easily have just made a smaller or simpler version of Gensokyo for herself to live in?
She probably wouldn't have even been capable of creating any version of Gensokyo without the other sages, human priests, and Reimu's ancestor.

Yukari doesn't value shit, anon. She helped create Gensokyo to ensure her own long term survival, and she uses it mostly as a means to torment and kill outsiders without consequences. She's evil to the core, simple as that.

>>19644919
Because the ideals fascists believed in ultimately destroyed them. If anything, World War 2 is one of the greatest examples of how morality is not completely subjective. As everybody, no matter how much they hated and mistrusted each other, ultimately came together to defeat a ideology that was clearly evil and misguided.

>>19644899
Yeah but God's followers are killing each other in his name and are producing more followers.

While the Jap Gods were losing followers and faith and gained nothing from it. I guess Amaterasu loved taking Truman's big dick.

>>19644927
Makai as a thing hasn't really been explained in the post reboot lore. Shiki herself claims to be responsible for everything in Makai, and that's she a God. If that is true, then she might simply have followers in Gensokyo or the outside world. l.

>>19644933

Yukari can literally invade and steal dreams (WaHH). She usually hangs out in the outside world (so much she refers to being in Gensokyo as "when I enter Gensokyo).

She would have no problem just putting humanity under a spell of eternal nightmares, but she doesn't. She's not evil.

She even targeted Eirin to mentally scar her so that she wouldn't need human fear herself. (Eternal knowledge god fear has to be worth like, a lot of fear)

>>19644933
Why would Reimu's ancestor agree to this? Were they a race traitor?

>>19644972
>She would have no problem just putting humanity under a spell of eternal nightmares
Yukari is not omnipotent. Her power has clearly defined limits. There are also several people noticeably stronger than her, a lot of which do still exist in the Outside world.

>>19644978
Hard to say. She might have been a genuinely good person that let herself be sealed away to keep a eye on Gensokyo's Youkai. Or she might have been a selfish power hungry bitch that saw Gensokyo as the perfect chance to ensure both she and her descendant would live like privileged goddesses for the rest of eternity.

>>19644992

Humans have zero means of fighting back against dreamworld stuff

>>19644992
*Her powers clearly has limits.

>>19645008
Actually, we do. Quite a few methods in fact.

And we also have benevolent gods looking over us. Who would probably put a stop to Yukari if she pulls a stunt like that.

>>19644952
Well yeah but it does'nt disclude that good can be seen through perspective and on a scale outside of mere selfishness, both exist with each other.

>>19645017

The gods won't do anything about Yukari any more than they do anything about her now, or when she rigged the entire planet to dump all its supernatural elements into Gensokyo.

>>19645018
You can try to convince yourself that your actions are making the world a better place, but that doesn't mean you're actually right.

>>19645028
The Gods don't really have much of a reason to put a stop to Yukari. Anybody that genuinely believes in them would probably have enough faith to scare her away. And I doubt they give one fuck about Gensokyo.

>>19645035

That's not how it works. A genuine belief in God doesn't personally save you from being ripped apart on the Road of Reconsideration.

>>19645050
That is how it works. Because a genuine belief in Yhvh would mean that 1: You go to heaven in the first place. 2: Yukari isn't going to touch you, especially when there are so many atheists/un-pious people walking around.

The same is true for any believer of Shiva/Vishnu/Allah/Thor/Hecatia/Guan Yu.

>>19645008
Collective suicide is a good way to stop dreams.

What are you even talking about?

This is secondary conjecture at its absolute worst. No, your faith does not magick you away. If you die in Gensokyo you go to the river. Do you even read the source material?

>>19645279
>No, your faith does not magick you away.
I never said that. What I am saying is that it determines your afterlife, and that Yukari isn't liable to spirit you away if you believe in a powerful goddess.

>>19645299
*Goddess or God.

>>19645299

Please point to the piece of canon material that gives any support for this idea.

About 10% of Japan is Christian, they aren't exempt from being warped to the Road of Reconsideration when they become suicidal.

To my knowledge. Please provide canon citation otherwise.

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Road_of_Reconsideration

Because this doesn't say Christians Exempt.

>>19645368

ALL people, atheist, buddhist, christian, who die in Gensokyo, are taken to the river Sanzu and put through the Yama's judgment.

>>19645368
What it does say however is that you don't go to the Road of Reconsideration if you become suicidal. You go there if you DID commit suicide. It's basically the last chance you have to rethink your deed before you're off to the afterlife. That wouldn't happen to Christians, would would either go straight to heaven, hell, or purgatory.

>>19645382
Do you have... proof for that? And not, like, in universe Buddhists claiming that's what happens.

Like, think of it like this: If you are a time displaced Norse Warrior, and you die heroically in Gensokyo fighting a Youkai. Then, is there any reason why the Valkyries aren't going to pick you and carry you to Valhalla?

>>19645402
*Think of it like this:

>>19645393

Spiriting away can also bring you there though, which happens to the living as well.

A Christian human who is physically dragged to Hecatia's hell (Hecatia rules ALL hells by the way in Touhou)

Would not be magically saved by their faith.

At least, there's no canon evidence to say they do, and no canon evidence that faith protects individual humans like that.

"You go where you believe you go" is not an established fact in Touhou.

>>19645393
*That wouldn't happen to christians, who would go straight to heaven, hell, or purgatory.

>>19645414
>Spiriting away can also bring you there though, which happens to the living as well.
Sure. Yukari might drop some people there from time to time to feed Youkai.

>A Christian human who is physically dragged to Hecatia's hell (Hecatia rules ALL hells by the way in Touhou)
But they would be a lot less likely to end up being dragged to hell in the first place. This is a universe were yelling "THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!" actually works if you have enough faith.

>>19645402

It's somewhat of a logic leap to put an unsupported "People of X faith are carried away to the land of that faith"

And override canon facts like "The dead in Gensokyo are sent over the river Sanzu to be judged"

Like, where are you getting that extra layer?

>>19645432
It's simple:
>Do other gods besides the Japanese/Chinese ones exist?
Yes.

>Do those gods have their own version of the afterlife?
In most cases, yes.

>Is one of those gods responsible for the dead going were they are supposed to go? Again, in most cases yes.

>Is there any reason why that god WOULDN'T send your soul to that afterlife when you die?
No.

>And override canon facts like "The dead in Gensokyo are sent over the river Sanzu to be judged"
Still shown no proof for that, btw.

>>19645470
*
>Is one of those gods responsible for the dead going were they are supposed to go?
Again, in most cases yes.

>>19645470
Aggregate faith changes reality. A human's personal faith does not. The pope himself shouting that only God has magic will not stop Sumireko from flying as she pleases.

>>19645368
Being suicidal isn't being Christian and you go to hell.

>>19645414
If Hecatia rules over all hells than Christianity and other religions versions of hells are spooks.

>>19645470

here's your proof
"One of the gods that resides in hell and judges the deceased. She possesses ability to establish things as clear good and evil. Her real name is Eiki Shiki, and the "Yamaxanadu" is a title that she carries in her job as a Yama. Basically the title represents the place they're in charge of."

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Eiki_Shiki,_Yamaxanadu

Official profile for PoFV clearly establishes she's juding an area, not a faith.

That is third person omniscient btw.

>>19645497
That's somewhat how it seems to work, but not completely. Otherwise, everybody would go to the christian afterlife. Even in Gensokyo.

And before you say "it depends on where you die". Stop and think for a moment how ridiculous that idea is. Like, if you are a devoted Muslim that spend years of your life working to convert people and spread the word of Allah. Do you seriously think you're still reincarnated if you die in a plane crash above Tibet?

Hell, let's take it a step further. Let's say you're a pious Buddhist, and you visit a Norse neopagan festival because one of your friends invited you. But during the festival somebody accidentally drops a heavy ladder on your head, which ends up killing you. Are you now going to wake up in front of Hel telling you "Welp, should have died during battle kiddo"?

>>19645570
>One of the gods that resides in hell and judges the deceased.
Nowhere does it say she judges EVERYBODY that dies in Gensokyo.

>>19645573

I mean conjecture here is nice but we have third-person omniscient saying it is area-based.

The fact Hecatia rules ALL hells sort of wrecks up a lot of other religions anyways.

>>19645584
She's judging a area. Nowhere does it say that she judging EVERYBODY in that area.

There is also nothing stopping a deity from a different religion from going up to Eiki and telling her "I'm taking this soul with me" if they do end up at the Sanzu river. Which they would be able to do easily, as almost all of them would be a million times stronger than her.

>>19645570
>Ability to establish things as good and evil.
As Shiki ever gotten into philosophy because she seems to be lacking reality.

>>19645600

You're really reaching here. If Yahweh was grabbing souls we would've heard about it. You're using rules of the real world to piece together what "should make sense" when that's just not what happens in Touhou.

Hecatia kicked Satan's ass and rules Christian hell now.

>>19645594
Not really. Even if we go very broad, and also include hell/underworld like places like Hades or Hel. It's possible she's either working together with the local god there, or ruling in their absence because they basically don't need to do anything anymore expect pick up the occasional neopagan.

>>19645368
>10%
shut up retard
by the way, christianity is a turd

>>19645594
Define hell. Because Christianity has a hell, but Norse mythology doesn't have a hell. In fact Norse multiple after life places, but no real hell like Christians. Norse does have something we can call Hell like Hel due to how shit and bad it is, but its not a Hell

>>19645619
Christian Hell is ruled by Yaweh. He sentences people there and can purge it at anytime and he created it.

Satan acts like a gangster in a place where Yaweh doesn't exert his influence. He doesn't "rule" over it, but he does rule over it.

>>19645639

That's nice christian lore.

But it's not Touhou. If ZUN says Cirno beat up yahweh that's the end of it.

ZUN said Hecatia rules all hells, that's the end of it.

>>19645619
>You're really reaching here. If Yahweh was grabbing souls we would've heard about it.
The only one reaching is you. Not only is it perfectly possible that Yahweh/Allah/whatever doesn't need to personally pick up souls from the Sanzu river. But there's also no reason why Akyuu or Aya would know about it. Since I doubt it's a common occurrence.

>You're using rules of the real world to piece together what "should make sense" when that's just not what happens in Touhou.
No. I'm using the facts and rules clearly established in Touhou to figure out the truth. You, meanwhile, just desperately cling to one character profile that doesn't even say anything particularly definitively.

>Hecatia kicked Satan's ass and rules Christian hell now.
Satan doesn't even really rule hell, get your christian lore straight. As for why Hecatia is currently in charge of the place, Yhvh probably just trusts her enough to take care of everything.

>>19645652
>ZUN said Hecatia rules all hells, that's the end of it.
Did he say she kicked Satan's ass though? No. Did he say that Satan, in the Touhou universe, was in charge of hell? No. Did he say literally anything about Satan, Yhvh, and asses? No.

God, you are pathetic and desperate.

>>19645672

So you're saying those people don't exist or don't have a hell then?

>>19645657

Do you not read WaHH? Komachi is literally alerted and aggro'd immediately if any soul gets out without following the normal path. Happened when Reimu died eating spoiled food but was revived.

>>19645710
>Those people.
Which people? Christians? Atheists? Russians? Hecatiafags?

>>19645720
1: A soul going to the afterlife they're supposed to go would probably be viewed as "the normal path" to Komachi. 2: If Yhvh/Allah/Odin/Hades personally picks up a soul, there isn't much she can do about it. Most of those Gods could annihilate her by looking at her too hard.

>>19645729

Literally headcanoning new characters into Touhou. Kasen just referred to Jesus as "A saint".

You have literally no basis for the outside world's religious demographics in Touhou, and you've got cute powerlevel headcanons too.

How many human worshippers do you think Hecatia has? Does this stop her from being above other gods who have more?

>>19645762
>Kasen just referred to Jesus as "A saint".
There's nothing inherently special about Christianity. It's just a very big religion. But by the rules established in the universe, that would make Yhvh real.

>You have literally no basis for the outside world's religious demographics in Touhou
Yes I do. It's called "Real world religious demographics", which are still true until noted otherwise. I would ask for proof that they are not true in the Touhou universe, but i know you don't have that.

>How many human worshippers do you think Hecatia has?
Considering how she does play a somewhat decently big role in a neopagan, wicca, and occult movements(Which is one of the reasons why she looks like a Goth girl). I would say more than any God in Gensokyo or the moon.

>Does this stop her from being above other gods who have more?
Like who? Kanako? Chang'e?

>>19645820
*In neopagan, wicca, and occult believes(Which is one of the reasons why she looks like she regularly shops at hot topic).

Yahweh cannot exist as described anyways, since he's objectively not the only god

>>19645853
Not exactly, obviously. But he would still exist, and be ludicrously powerful because of how many followers he has. Probably THE biggest boy on earth.

Who gave the Yama and Komachi the aauthority over my soul and after life? I did not sign any agreement with those bitches or their bosses. And since my soul belongs to me I am free to do whatever I want with it, become a lich or not go their shitty river.

Your blood, your life, your soul belongs to you alone. Shiki has no authority over you.

>>19645870

Possibly. But he's as irrelevant in Touhou as he is in the Marvel Cinematic Universe in terms of "But he would intervene in X"

>>19645944
He's irrelevant because he has no reason to give a fuck about Gensokyo. It doesn't have many, if any, Christians, Lucifer doesn't seem to visit it, and Hecatia manages hell.

The rules of the universe still means he is hot shit. And would be able to stop somebody like Yukari or the Lunarians from fucking up the world.

Why didn't the Lunarians just purify the planet instead of leaving? Wouldn't it have been faster and more resource saving this way in the first place? You waste reaources to leave and then come back x amount of years later when the moon isn't pure anymore.

>>19645983

Lunarians are retarded and assumed an amatsukami summoning from the world Yukari lives in was their own defenders and not a Yukari trick. (It was a Yukari trick)

>>19645983
I think because the Lunarians, while massive twats, are not actually genocidal.

>Get summon magic
>Mark spot in outside world
>Mark human village
>Summin human village outside Gensokoyo while in Gensokoyo
It sure was hard destroying Gensokoyo.

>>19646147

You forgot get a rock doorgapped into your brain for even thinking of this plan.

You're not the first, and not the biggest dick trying to mess with Gensokyo.

>>19646188
I want to add that "summoning magic" does not mean you can summon a village of a few thousands people by just drawing a circle somewhere.

>>19646188
>Yukari can now read thoughts while not knowing of your existence.

>>19646014

Yes they are, most of them.
All of the moon sages agreed on the destroy Gensokyo plan. Except Sagume, who realized going to Gensokyo would just get themselves killed too (Hecatia can teleport to Gensokyo)

>>19646232

If you're talking about in-universe, you won't know of Gensokyo's existence unless you are a Gensokian or Sumireko. And Yukari invades the dreams of Gensokians.

If you're some undertale child who thinks there's some sort of meta element and you can bring your knowledge of "Touhou" then I don't know what to say, can't help you there.

>>19645925
if you think you can transcend the system, go for it anon, but those sound like empty words, and methinks somebody's going to get a judging from the yama, but don't worry, she's a fair girl who will judge you evenly desu

>>19646240
Why are moon people so dumb? Is it autism?

>>19646309
I'll pull up the Yama's skirt and pull down her panties. All is fair in love and war.

>>19646476

Maybe. Why did they choose to go to the moon? Within invasion range of everyone? And it's not even truly pure according to ZUN?

ANYWHERE ELSE in the UNIVERSE would've been better.

>>19643144
Love, anon.

>>19646524
Maybe their space ships can't travel far enough to reach mars.