/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>19519350
I dislike them because my favorite 2hu is Junko, so it's my default opinion on all the lunarians

A lot of characters in touhou have immensive powers which could have basically destroyed everything in a blink, literally Flandre, Yukari's boundary control, Yuyuko's ability etc.
But they never really used them in the most overpowered way they could - but the moonbitches did.
Also the whole storyline - it was a shame to see them bluntly cockblocked and told to simply turn back, probably one of the most boring outcomes the one could have imagined.

>>19519350
>they beat my waifu so fuck them AAAAAAAAA!!!

It was just autism.

>>19519350
For me it's that they didn't even follow the spellcard rules and just got scot free away with it.

>>19519694
But all the hate is for that reason? isn't that too much?

>>19519694
Who the hell follows spellcard rules in manga?

>>19519624
>Also the whole storyline - it was a shame to see them bluntly cockblocked and told to simply turn back, probably one of the most boring outcomes the one could have imagined.
I never felt that Remi's moon expedition was the center of the storyline so I didn't really have a problem with this. The reveal that Yukari did it all just to troll Eirin made it worth it in my opinion.
>>19519694
I don't remember this happening, how did they break them?

I don't like them because they're these powerful characters who beat our protagonists and ZUN didn't end up doing much with them in the end.
It wouldn't even be that bad if he had made them more interesting and likable.

>>19519350
>Why do people hate the 'moon bitches' again?
Some people still liked Reimu back then.

>>19519749
>I don't remember this happening, how did they break them?
The spell card rules are in effect so that you won't just brute force win everything, which is exactly what they did.

Hey at least we got rape doujins out of it.

>>19520030
How rude, I still like Reimu. She's cool and manly and doesn't afraid of anything.

>>19519624
>But they never really used them in the most overpowered way they could - but the moonbitches did.
god forbid people defend their home from powerful invaders
FUCK them right???

>>19520131
>She's cool and manly and doesn't afraid of anything.
That's a nice way to say "asshole"

>>19520030
reimu is cute and pure kys moron :)

>>19519749
>just to troll Eirin
that doesn't even come close to the significance of it. Yukari taught Eirin to fear the unknown, to make her truly understand that there are things she cannot ever understand even with her enormous intellect. According to ZUN, Eirin would keep this scar with her for the rest of her eternal life, and youkai are born from fear, effectively ensuring the existence of youkai forever. That was a big win for Yukari, a woman who has shown ever since the creation of the Hakurei Barrier that time and time again she will fight and scheme for the survival of youkai.

This is why I liked Bougetsushou, because for once it majorly advanced the plot of Touhou. As a bonus, it made me like Yukari a lot. If the youkai have someone like her vying for them, then they're in good company.

>>19519350
The whole purity thing just rubs me more of being an asshole than smug, but apart from that, they don't really do anything unlikable. Still wouldn't want to hold a conversation with them.

>>19520578
yukari is a good girl

>>19520578
wow I can't beleive Yukari gave Eirin PTSD

>>19520644
She may have had good intentions, but Yukari is a trickster who isn't above getting dirty.

Now that we're talking about mangas, anyone else feel like Reimu is a youkai...? It's too late into the night for me to remember all my thoughts that led up to this but this has been bugging my mind since forever. It feels like WaHH and FS (especially the end) have been hinting that this whole time...

>>19520872
no, she's closer to a living goddess or a celestial

>>19520872
Can you expand more into it when you remember the details?

>>19520872
Yukari is literally just bullshitting Reimu so Reimu won't kill her.

>>19520644
Merry was a good girl and Yukari is that good girl.

>>19519350
>Touhou Bougetsushou
Proof that Yukarifags and EoSDfags are worst.

Yukari is a Mary Sue

Yukari a shit.

>>19524539
>>19524547
explain yourselves.

>>19524539
>>19524547
>>19524550
go back 2 /v/ samefag
Also you can't say a 2hu is shit for being a Mary Sue when half of the cast are Sues. That's what makes Touhou fun.

>>19524493
Yes. Also, Merry is a pure maiden and so is Yukarin.

>>19519350
because they committed the biggest sin in all of touhou. for all their power, they're fucking boring

>>19520578
It was a pretty good ending twist. Yukari is such an amazing love to hate villain.

>>19524425
What are you implying?

They did nothing wrong.

>>19528407
love to love hero*

My problem with the comic is that literally fucking nothing happens in it and unlike WaHH or VFiS the art isn't cute. Plus unlike those two the chapters don't work as individual SOL snippets--Bougetsushou is clearly supposed to be plot-driven but just...nothing happens in it?

But that's probably the point and I'm just a dumb shounenfag who wants to see spellcard battles.

>>19533119
Touhou has so many cool abilities. It's a waste not to have a shonen style doujin / official manga series.

>>19532825
Yukari is a anti villain at best. And even that requires accepting a whole lot of theories mostly unsupported by canon.

>>19533239
There isn't really much of a point to doing a Shonen Touhou series when fights having no real stakes has been established part of the lore for a while already.

>>19535033
Yukari is the hero of mankind, youkaikind and also those who hate lunarians, HERO.

>>19519624
>immensive powers
What the fuck does that even mean?

>>19520872
>anyone else feel like Reimu is a youkai...?
No. Reimu is not a youkai or even a goddess. She's a human. Nothing more and nothing less.

Youkai and gods in Touhou's setting are explicitly and cripplingly dependent on outside sustenance in order to maintain their powers and existence. Youkai need human fear or misconception; gods require faith. Without these, their power fades and they eventually cease to exist.

Reimu gets no faith. She isn't worshipped. She isn't feared. And yet she maintains the full range of her powers. Only humans can do such a thing: achieve and maintain power through training and ritual alone. This is why youkai and gods are the endangered, inferior species, while humanity prospers.

Reimu, however, is doggedly loyal to Gensokyo. She does what she needs to do to maintain it, regardless of what it implies about her function. She has a personal ideology stapled onto the whole affair, but it's nothing more than a rationalisation. Note she doesn't deny Yukari's words in FS. She doesn't like them, since they clash with her own idealised version of her station, but she doesn't deny them.

She is Gensokyo's shrine maiden. There really is nothing more to it.

>>19519727
Not him, but on WaHH Reimu and Byakuren fight a danmaku battle briefly

>>19535199
she receives faith from the outside world, maybe

>>19535080
She's a hero of Youkai alright. In the same way Stalin is a communist hero.

>>19535199
She is somewhat more, actually. Going by Akyuu, the Hakurei Shrine Maiden's pretty much got Gensokyo under their thumb. Both because of their power and the importance of their position. Which is probably the reason why Reimu is so loyal to Gensokyo in the first place. Because she doesn't want to lose her position of privilege and power.

>>19535229
She's my hero and I'm human so she's a hero of humans.

>>19535351
That would make her the hero of a human, not mankind.

>>19533119
>the art isn't cute
The problem is you, faggot

>>19519350
It's kind of an ongoing joke, at this point.

>>19519350

Saying that Earthlings are naturally filthy and full of sin (And they themselves aren't somehow, despite owning slaves), and assuming they have the authority to "punish" earthlings by letting them roam around on the earth and eventually die is normal levels of smug?

Paraphrasing Toyohime there

>>19535535
I speak for all mankind when I say Yukari is a hero and our ultimate savior.
>>19535766
What's sinful about owning slaves?

>>19535766
>Saying that Earthlings are naturally filthy and full of sin (And they themselves aren't somehow, despite owning slaves), and assuming they have the authority to "punish" earthlings by letting them roam around on the earth and eventually die is normal levels of smug?
Kegare, anon. Kegare is what causes things to die, and they left Earth to get away from it. It's not something they made up, it's an everyday concept in Japan - the reason people visit shrines, go to hot springs, and meditate under waterfalls is because pure water can wash away their kegare.
"She's thousands of years old but she's lying about humans not living that long, because she owns slaves!" is a non sequitur.

Also, Toyohime said that to Yukari, whom she hates (and who most of the cast would agree she's fully justified in hating, even if Yukari *hadn't* tried to invade her home with an army of monsters).

>>19536214

I know about kegare, the problems are:

1: They are acting like it's a "punishment" they are meting out with their divine authority even though it's a natural force

2. They imply the lack of it makes them superior, even though a Hell God brimming with kegare is greater than every single one of them.

3. They aren't even free of Kegare, ZUN said the moon isn't entirely pure in SCoOW and the Lunarians will eventually die

>>19535779
>I speak for all mankind when I say Yukari is a hero and our ultimate savior.
No, you don't speak for all of humanity. Because i'm human, and i disagree.

>>19535766
they aren't actually punishing the earthlings, she's just letting them know being on earth is punishment enough for them.

>>19536214
Toyohime would be justified in trying to lez out with Yukari(as most of the cast would agree).
>>19536321
Yeah but you're an idiot so you don't count.

>>19536336
>Yeah but you're an idiot so you don't count.
Then, i will speak for all of humanity and say Yukari is a monster that deserves to die.

You are a idiot, and do not count.

>>19536336

By splitting fantasy and reality 500 years ago (Fantasy-reality barrier, not Hakurei barrier)

Yukari gave humans the outside world free from youkai, and allowed humanity to emerge from the dark ages and advance.

Truly the savior of all humanity, and part of her Great Plan to spread humanity and youkai both across the stars.

>>19536365
1: Do you have a source for that? 2: Europe was the only place to emerge from any kind of dark age. 3: Europe is also not inhabited by Youkai.

>>19536398

What do you call Remilia? All monsters, including western ones and Christian demons count as youkai/oni in Touhou.

Also, that barrier (Which Yukari created by herself, affecting the entire planet) is best described in SCoOW.

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Strange_Creators_of_Outer_World/Basic_Knowledge_of_Fantastic_Words_2015

Her great plan isn't explicitly stated but it's rather obvious given she can survive anywhere (including on the moon after Eirin closes her portal in Moon War 1, against several thousand heavenly gods, and get out completely unharmed, unkilled and not sealed)

She's protecting humanity and youkai both for some reason

Our benevolent lord.

>>19536455
Going by what you posted, Humanity was already on its way to dominating the planet (which we were) when that barrier was created. And it mostly just served as a means of preserving Youkai, like everything Yukari does. Almost like she only cares about protecting Youkai.

>What do you call Remilia? All monsters, including western ones and Christian demons count as youkai/oni in Touhou.
I would call them supernatural creatures. Which, i will grant you, do seem to play by the same rules as Youkai all over the world. Even if they still technically aren't Youkai.

Also, Demons are something else than Youkai in the Touhou universe. Unless you want to argue that the pc-98 games aren't canon anymore.

Zun's writing a shit. Aside from taking stuff from mythology and giving it his own flavor you people put more thought into this shit then he ever will. Pointless

>>19536365
>Yukari gave humans the outside world free from youkai, and allowed humanity to emerge from the dark ages and advance.
Humans were always advancing. Her barrier was designed to ride that wave, collecting youkai through osmosis.

It's not like Gensokyo is the only place where youkai live (there's plenty of hidden realms and otherworlds out there), but it's notable for being created artificially.

The Lunar Capital is also artificial, and it's implied that Gensokyo's barriers are based on knowledge stolen from there during Yukari's first lunar invasion.

>>19536455
>Which Yukari created by herself, affecting the entire planet
Haha, no. The Outside World is a world of reality by default. All Yukari did was envelop a lesser-known valley in Japan in a boundary field that reverses the "reality" of the human mindscape in that area. It's a reverse Gellar field and nothing more.

>>19536516

It's nice you put them into their own categories but they all fall under the youkai umbrella

Don't believe it? Play IN with Remilia and watch your youkai bar fill up.

Vampires are "blood-sucking oni" in Japan, and Remilia does count as youkai in Gensokyo.

Oni are also a kind of youkai, but a special class beyond most other kinds.

>>19536534

The truth of existence is fantasy and reality together.

Sumireko is proof of this - the outside world is still spawning the fantastical, just at a lower rate because Yukari's fantasy-reality barrier wasn't absolute.

>>19535040
ZUN said she doesn't see Yuugi as a kinda person that would follow spellcard rules. Maybe a manga about Hell/Former Hell could do that job?

>>19536520
To be fair, ZUN's work is set up in a way were he wants the audience to think more about the setting than he did. Simply by keeping things ambiguous and vague enough.

>>19536538
I would say they all fall under the umbrella "supernatural creature". Which, i do admit, is basically what Youkai means.

It doesn't matter either way. Like I, and several other people pointed out, the splitting of that barrier was only beneficial to youkai.

>>19536573
That could work. Especially considering how powerful most people in the Hell/Former hell are.

>>19536585
ZUN said he didn't want to do books like PMiSS until he realized he could use them to introduce more questions than answers.

>>19536595

Counterpoint:
If Yukari wasn't in Gensokyo most of the time she'd be here, messing with YOUR life.

Powerful youkai like Mamizou do not need the barrier, Mamizou only entered in 2011 and not because she had to either.

>>19536611
Not even surprised. The man knows how to keep the Doujin community alive.

>>19536622
>If Yukari wasn't in Gensokyo most of the time she'd be here, messing with YOUR life.
1: She sleeps most of the time. 2: Why would she bother me? Somebody that doesn't even live in Japan. 3: Yukari isn't real. 4: The worst thing she could to me anyway is take me to Gensokyo. 5: If Gensokyo didn't exist, she would probably be dead alongside almost every other Youkai.

>>19536292
>3. They aren't even free of Kegare, ZUN said the moon isn't entirely pure in SCoOW and the Lunarians will eventually die
Isn't this due to the LoLK invasion tainting the capital?

>>19536642
1. True 2. You probably deserve it 3. False 4. False 5. False

>>19536643

No, it was a problem long before and likely what made Kaguya ask Eirin to make the elixir

LoLK might have made it worse though

>>19536642

Yukari is often in the outside world as it is, as I said before it's not actually toxic to any but the weakest youkai.

In fact, in the future the outside world is more favorable to youkai and a space station TORIFUNE (read: hunk of metal built by scientific-minded people who wouldn't be afraid of youkai) is overrun by randomly spawning youkai.

Extra note: Yukari could do much worse. Try being a puppet in your own body forced to kneel for her and do her chores forever. She did it to a kyuubi.

>>19536688
But that sounds like a dream job!

>>19536595
>Like I, and several other people pointed out, the splitting of that barrier was only beneficial to youkai.
And Gods, which work on benefit of humans.

>>19536688
>Yukari could do much worse. Try being a puppet in your own body forced to kneel for her and do her chores forever. She did it to a kyuubi.
She's not a puppet, she's an actor who gains the powers of her role as long as she stays in-character.

The reason Chen shoots up in power in PCB is because that was when she started actually bothering to follow her script.

Obeying your boss =/= being a zombie

>>19536688
>TORIFUNE
But was that really a youkai?

>>19536813
no it was a wild space dog

>>19536813

By definition.

Unless you're implying that creatures capable of getting onto a structure in space through airlocks without a ship of its own is something non-supernatural.

>>19536770

The SHIKIGAMI "Ran" is an actor, same with Chen.

The kitsune before Yukari got her was not even named Ran. Ran is a different being entirely, a super AI that Yukari created and put into the kyuubi body.

If you got shikigami'd yourself, you would be subsumed by the AI and not in control anymore.

StangeCow: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Strange_Creators_of_Outer_World/Who%27s_Who_of_Humans_%26_Youkai_in_Gensokyo/Yukari_Yakumo,_Ran_Yakumo,_and_Chen

PMiSS:
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Ran_Yakumo

>>19536666
>2. You probably deserve it
no.

3. False
Weirdo

>4. False
I mean, i suppose she could torture or kill me.

5: False
It's the truth, anon.

>>19536688
>In fact, in the future the outside world is more favorable to youkai and a space station TORIFUNE (read: hunk of metal built by scientific-minded people who wouldn't be afraid of youkai) is overrun by randomly spawning youkai.
I read that story. And i'm pretty sure those were science experiments gone wrong, not Youkai.

>Extra note: Yukari could do much worse. Try being a puppet in your own body forced to kneel for her and do her chores forever. She did it to a kyuubi.
Again, true. She is a sadistic monster with a sick sense of comedy.

>>19536746
>And Gods, which work on benefit of humans.
>benefit of humans.
>benefit
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

>>19537432
*
>2. You probably deserve it
no.

>3. False
Weirdo

>4. False
I mean, i suppose she could torture or kill me.

>5: False
It's the truth, anon.

>>19536955
No need for head-tapping. When I used "she" I was responding to a post that talked about "the kyuubi".

>She's not a script the fox is following, she's an AI installed on a foxputer
Those are the same thing. An AI *is* a script being followed by the computer, and "shiki" literally means script. Apart from the running gag of Yukari saying things like "I need to debug my fox", ZUN's depiction of shikigami is very standard - you enter a magical servant contract in which you're bound under a "job title" that becomes your new name/identity. It's an exaggeration of the "honne and tatemae" concept, where people in the workplace are expected to have a public persona that's different from their real personality, and related to how gods can have many layers of personas until their worshippers aren't sure what they originally were any more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae

We've already seen that you can just stop following the script, as early as PCB - Ran's pet cat can turn off CHEN.EXE when she doesn't feel like it, and the fox itself was weakened because it was acting outside of RAN.SH's parameters.

>>19537432

>Science experiments gone wrong

Live long enough without food, water and oxygen resupply that the whole station has to be moved to the Lagrange point

These seem 100% natural

Well okey dokey

>>19537432
>>And Gods, which work on benefit of humans.
You give prayers, they give miracles and benefits.

>>19537572
A lot of things created by advanced SCIENCE! Can seem supernatural, but that doesn't mean they actually are. Like those creatures.

>>19537636
No, anon. You devote your entire life to them, make constant offerings, and kill anybody that has different religious ideas. And they MIGHT grant you one miracle or one benefit.

>>19537891
It depends entirely on their desperation
If they're on the brink of being forgotten, you can bet your ass that they be appreciative of the person that saves them from death

>>19538185
No. They would use that opportunity to force you and all of your decendants into servitude to help them obtain more followers.

>>19519749
>>19520578
>just to troll Eirin
But I don't remember any such scene? The last we see of Eirin is when she's reading the message from the moon rabbit.

>>19537891
Just because Jesus isn't as nice to his followers doesn't mean others like Kanako aren't like that.

>>19519350
I guess you missed the genuine threats of genocide, the enslavement of another race and the mocking of it at that, the sense of superiority with no humor to it (this is important, overall they're rather humorless as opposed to someone like Remilia, who is likable in her boasting -- when they speak highly of themselves and lowly of others they are only stating cold facts and it sucks). They're better moonbitches than most, but that means very little.

Sagume best mooninite, as she's actually decent to people and not a cunt in any particular way. Just does what she has to, and tries not to make TOO much in the way of waves.

>>19538267
Cage in Lunatic Runagate's final chapter has her pull out a bottle of moon sake that Yuyuko stole for her much to the shock of Eirin, who knows that getting that sake should have been impossible for her.

Yuyuko was able to get it because she and Youmu being dead/"dead" meant nobody noticed them on the pure land of the moon. Or something, I may have forgotten but basically Yuyuko stole that shit with ease

>>19535199
>She isn't feared.
well that's not true, but she doesn't need fear either

>>19538664
Oh so it's in a different serie. Thanks

>>19538664
So Yukari basically planned this all out. She knew that the protagonists would never be able to beat the Moon Girls because she already tried that.
It was all a distraction to have a different kind of Victory over the moon, huh?

>>19535252
That's looking far too much into it. Reimu doesn't care about her power or freedom, for the most part. Aside from very rare flights of fancy like finding small animals and trying to feed them sake, or chasing after a treasure ship or opening hot springs, Reimu's ideal state is sitting at her shrine and doing next to nothing, having parties, or drinking tea. She's always annoyed when she goes out to fight, though she may definitely enjoy kicking ass she doesn't like getting bothered to do it. She is so stuck on her own worldview simply because that is the way she is. She almost always speaks in absolutes and acts with unwavering judgment. She does what she has to because she believes she has to. Gensokyo works this way, so she keeps it this way. If she were a fish seller or a seamstress, she would probably act the same. If she lost her powers or didn't have to fight, she would probably act the same. This is why she's frequently evaluated as "Taoist" in philosophy, having a strict belief in the way things are/balance. Hence the yin yang orb and all that.

>>19538684
>So Yukari basically planned this all out.
I don't think so. Not at all.

She had ideas and hopes on ways things would go but things could have fallen apart in several places, that to call it a "plan" would be wrong. Also a plan wouldn't befit a youkai, which is supposed to be an unexplainable entity. She went at the whole thing thinking, "Yuyuko will probably figure something out" (she actually admits this in CiLR I think), and it worked to her advantage. But, something like her having to plead with the moonbitch to not nuke Gensokyo as a whole was probably a genuine plea since, seriously, she could've fouled up very badly had she acted smug there instead or something.

I'd say Yukari desires much and does things that set other things in motion, but to call any of it planning is way off the mark and antithetical to, like, her very BEING.

>>19519694
They followed the rules, they were just busted and OP.

>>19520626
they make fun of bunnies

>“Oh, and why are you here? To run away?”
>“I think I told you a while ago, but I am here on an errand given by Princess Yorihime.”
>“An errand?”
>I quickly pulled out the letter.
>“I, who had been given the letter to Princess Yagokoro, was to write a reply to Lady Yagokoro. After that I was told to go to the Sea of Ingenuity... but to think that I would see you in the Sea of Ingenuity..."
>“Oh? A letter to Lady Yagokoro?”
>Princess Toyohime snatched the letter from my hand and skimmed through it. While she was reading through her expressions ranged all the way from laughter to anguish. I felt like she was mentally correcting it and I felt embarrassed.
>“Hmm, what a childish composition. Well, I won’t blame you since rabbits have no knowledge.”
>My face flushed red.
>“I can't give such an embarrassing letter to the master. It would be too embarrassing. Reisen, you are to give the letter to her directly.”

>>19519350
The whole "I want to invade Gensokyo because the Moon has become too corrupt."
And "We're a race of perfect people who are only doing what we do to preserve our way of life, even though we're stupidly ruin our civilization due to pride, which is the actual source of impurity on the moon, and though unfathomably intelligent we're supposedly not smart enough to see that."
I mean, they're not really bad for individuals, but the people they're fighting for are a bunch of narcissistic manchildren beyond saving.

>>19519727
Every except for them and Fortune Teller, actually. Reimu should have pulled a Fantasy Heaven and bisected Sword Lady.

>>19536214
...And they reintroduced it into their society through the deadly sin of Pride. The only people they have to blame for their current situation are themselves.

>>19538926
Except that proves Fantasy Heaven is just a bluff.

>>19520872
Reimu's issue is that she's really bad at being human due to having the ability to chuck off human needs and motives at will. The longer she spends being a city-destroying superheroine, the less and less empathy she has towards the people she's allegedly supposed to protect, because they're just so flimsy and get caught up in trivial things. They're like larger versions of the fairies she swats on a daily basis.
>>19538941
Or that Yorihime was able to enter the same plane "outside of reality" and cancel the effect. She'd need that ability to stand any chance against Yukari.

>>19538712

Except she objectively planned the entire thing out, from the first chapter "The Sage's Plan" (or earlier)

It states in third person omniscient in CiLR that the entire purpose of her doing this plot was to mentally scar Eirin, and she succeeded at this.

The entire scene with Toyohime was a juxtaposition of pride - Yukari was willing to kneel to make her plot work, while Toyohime wasn't willing to stop bragging even though her bragging for so long made her lose sight of her actual objective. She says she is going to take Yukari to the moon and punish her twice, but forgets about this and goes back without harming Yukari at all.

Yukari was then laughing at them for a long time, and explained the double diversion tactic to Yuyuko.

Not only was it just as planned, it was -necessarily- timed down to the exact minute because she needed Toyo and Yori to both be absent from the palace at the same time for Yuyuko to do her stealing.

>>19538974

Yukari is able to out-plot Eirin. Eirin is the eternal heavenly knowledge god - compared to Eirin, Toyo and Yori are idiots so of course it was easy to trick them.

>>19535199
Except the whole "can turn invincible and disregard the need to eat or sleep at will" kind of thing. That alone allows her to function in a way radically different from a normal person. She can spend months without dreaming or tasting anything if it suits her mission, and she doesn't get the negative feedback that somebody attempting to fast or pull an all-nighter would. Not even a Lunarian has those capabilities by default. Her abilities augment her strength and senses such that she can bisect a man with a card or stay underwater indefinitely in order to partake in an undersea incident.

She isn't a youkai, but a transhuman. The ubersmench, if you will.

>>19538974
But she PLANNED nothing, she just had intentions and actions. The entire crux of her hope was Yuyuko doing something hopefully useful.

She laughs because mystery and bullshit wins out, not because of meticulous planning. She's not like Eirin, who DOES overthink and meticulously plan.

>>19539025

What are you even talking about chapter 1 of SSiB is titled "The Sage's Plan"

Yukari plans many things, I don't know where you get this idea that a youkai doesn't plan for the future.

The fantasy-reality barrier Yukari created 500 years ago was called the "Youkai expansion plan" and she had been planning it for centuries when she did it.

>>19539014
It's called plot armor. You have to realize ZUN isn't the god you might have seen him as and he, like everyone else, falls for the trope.

>>19539038
I feel that to truly define something as a plan it needs proper steps and thought behind it, yet Yukari's method of so-called "planning" involves almost none of this.

I don't understand how you can call something a plan where you cross your fingers that a ghost might do something useful.

>>19539055

You do realize she's partly based on the Laplace demon (and has a spellcard named for this) - a mathematical concept about being able to predict future events through use of mathematics.

And the PMiSS about Yukari says she's superintelligent, especially in mathematics.

If she could predict the minute Toyohime would come down for her, and the location she would start looking (miss the encounter by an hour and the whole Bougetsushou plot is ruined), why wouldn't she be able to predict Yuyuko's actions?

She knew whatever happened was going to work to mentally scar Eirin, because we have third-person omniscient

"That ominous smile left a deep scar in Eirin's mind, something she would never be able to forget. To make those who cannot die question the meaning of living. To make them fear the unknown, what they cannot understand.

That was the true intention behind Yukari's Second Lunar Invasion.
"

Side note but she also knew exactly when to be standing on the roof when Kosuzu showed up to attack in FS.

>>19539074
predictions and planning aren't synonymous, I think

>>19539051
What Marisa has is plot armor. I'm quite sure Reimu becoming less empathetic as she gained understanding of her powers was intentional. After all, to a lesser extent, Sanae was affected as well and also let her powers go to her head at one point, though luckily the fact that she had to actually interact with other humans on a daily basis kept her from seriously pursuing that path of thinking.

>>19539083

Fair, but I think if Yukari makes a prediction that requires her to do X Y and Z to work out, XYZ action course becomes a plan.

>>19539087
>Marisa
>plot armor
Except you missed the entire part about how she works her ass off to be able to compete with the likes of Reimu and even Sanae.

>>19539098

Just to continue there, I think that is what got Eirin messed up. Eirin should be the most / one of the most intelligent beings in the universe and tricking her should be impossible - which is what made it mentally scarring.

Yukari's predictions give her (limited) prescience though, so she can make plans that rely on "X person will do Y thing at exactly this time". Eirin didn't know what she was dealing with so it surprised her.

>>19539098
I just think this is counter to the very bit you quoted
"That ominous smile left a deep scar in Eirin's mind, something she would never be able to forget. To make those who cannot die question the meaning of living. To make them fear the unknown, what they cannot understand."
Part of her intentions regularly seems to be to make sure she retains a veneer of mystery, or is truly unknowable. I think this is why things like her first lunar invasion and the eventual sealing off of Gensokyo etc. either took a long time or can't be fully understood. This is also why I describe her as having wants rather than plans. I feel like if her motions don't have elements where things could go terribly wrong then it isn't "her". Someone like Eirin, a true tactician and planner, wouldn't allow even the slightest room for error, and although she can be difficult to understand all of her actions are done without a sense of mystery, instead she does things with obvious intention and intended results and acts specifically to those ends, making sure every piece works right and nothing can go out of sort.

Certainly Yukari is similar. She expected Remi would make her way to the moon on her own.

But, she could not have. She could have made a failed rocket.

She expected Yuyuko would be able to steal something that would sufficiently shake Eirin to her core. She didn't know what, though, and she was just like "surely Yuyuko will know what to do". Someone like Eirin wouldn't leave that to chance or vaguery. But, that's what keeps Yukari "youkai"-like. It's why she started a rumor that could end the world, or why she appeared before Marisa to see the Lunar Orb. Because ????. She likes the idea of being unknown.

>>19539136

Not necessarily a one-path plan mind you, but a xanatos gambit. In modern times, the Laplace demon has to account for quantum randomness - multiple possible futures (as an example - Yukari is not full power Laplace demon probably). Yukari just makes sure every possible outcome benefits her, so it looks like she knew exactly what would happen even if there was a random element.

Maybe Toyohime showed up 30 seconds early, but she knew she could make her brag about a rope for 10 pages and fix that.

>>19539194
My ultimate point is that she nonetheless takes risk. Yuyuko and Remilia's actions are 100% outside of her control. Patchouli could've totally failed for instance. Youmu wasn't supposed to do anything by Yuyuko's order, but she spied on the rocket being built and because of THAT, Yuyuko had Youmu suggest that they use gods for sea voyage to complete it.

Oh and completely outside of that, from none of Yukari's influence, Eirin made certain the ship would make it to the moon. I don't remember why exactly the mooncunts were worried about gods on the moon or some shit, but it didn't have to do with Yukari, right? And Eirin only learned about all that due to a random mochi-pounding rabbit escaping and seeking asylum.

Things worked out. You could argue she thought they certainly would, but it'd be a tougher argument to say these are the moves of a chessmaster. Meanwhile Eirin, queen of never taking a single risk. That cold bitch would legit kill anyone at the drop of a hat for a plan's successful execution, and she'd do it all herself/make absolutely certain there would be no unexpected outcomes. This makes sense, as she's all about logic and shit. Many of Yukari's actions are, at least seemingly, utterly illogical, and I think that's part of the delight of her bullshit in Bougetsushou. At the end she can mock Eirin like she knew all along exactly what would bother her and all that, but in many ways it was an almost random outcome.

>>19539241

I don't think it's possible for it to be a random outcome if Yukari's plan was to mentally scar Eirin from the beginning and this whole thing would've had a less than 0.001% chance of working otherwise.

This is Yukari's second Lunar invasion, not her 2237th and this one just so happened to work out.

Yukari knew with certainty that the rocket crew would get to the moon, and knew Eirin was going to put her veil on it because she also knew the speed of the method of travel (REQUIRED for timing Toyohime's travel down to Earth at the exact same moment).

Add up all the things that had to go exactly right for Bougetsushou to work in Yukari's favor, then factor in that this all worked on the first try.

Yukari would have many, many more terrible failures to successes if she was just throwing the dice.

>>19539291
If it could've failed, and Yuyuko's choice of theft was like earning something from a gacha machine, it's at least somewhat random.

>>19539305
I should clarify that Yukari can't actually "know" anything so much as she can "predict with high probability". She's not a seer, which is important to note I think

One problem I have is that Yukari knew exactly what the watatsukis were going to do. She hadn't interacted with them in over a thousand fucking years since the last invasion, there was no way she could know they hadn't turned into cold-blooded killers that would just kill her and the rocket crew at first contact.

>>19539305

Stealing some weapon or burning down the Lunar Palace would've been too obvious, and as Yuyuko said they would just come get it back if it was something else.

By taking the Lunar sake, Yukari was able to conceal the fact that she even had it until she gave it to Eirin to drink.

Being right there, face to face with a smiling Yukari (the smile is what was scarred into her mind remember) is much more damaging than receiving a report from a rabbit that some weapon was stolen.

>>19539349
Pretty much her plan is riddled with problems. You could say she has a good knack for reading people and definitely a vast amount of knowledge that can assist (knowing how, where, and when to open a path to the moon for isntance). I just don't think you could, or should, call Yukari a chessmaster type. It's not QUITE right

>lore and story thread
>all this incorrect information everywhere
kuso

>>19539367

Literally the only character in Touhou with mastermind in her title

Not a chessmaster

Okay

>>19539409
Behind spiriting away?

Well she IS responsible for that.

>>19539402
Please do not misuse the quote function.

I think the moonbitches are cute!

Bougetsushou is quite literally the largest single plot actively described in Touhou (content-wise)

Also Yukari did moon war 1 and somehow escaped with both herself and Gensokyo completely unharmed and now the violent warlike youkai were dead.

Calling her a chessmaster is an understatement. She attacked several thousand heavenly gods at once in an invasion where everyone else was killed ("crushed by advanced weaponry"), the supreme god of knowledge closed her portal and had her trapped, but Yukari got out without being sealed / killed / power-reduced, or harmed at all.

She's a 14-dimensional intergalacted hyperchess master. No matter what she does or what happens, she benefits from it.

>>19539480
Chess implies direct control over elements and factors/persons, which Yukari of course regularly has none of outside of her flimsy computer and its cat.

>>19539480
>Bougetsushou is quite literally the largest single plot actively described in Touhou (content-wise)
Arguable. I'd say that would be the events that started in Urban Legend in Limbo is. It was something that started from the Moon people as part of their master plan, bled into Legend of the Lunatic Kingdom, and again into Antinomy of Common Flowers. Not to mention, the effects are still being seen since a side effect was Sumireko's appearance, resulting in the new game.

>Also Yukari did moon war 1 and somehow escaped with both herself and Gensokyo completely unharmed and now the violent warlike youkai were dead.
Two things wrong. Gensokyo didn't exist during the first Lunar War. The 'violent war-like' youkai didn't just up and die if you think that's the explanation for why there aren't any murdering youkai around. That's a result of the rules set for Gensokyo, and the youkai all know that following them is the best way to maintain their existence.

>She attacked several thousand heavenly gods at once in an invasion where everyone else was killed ("crushed by advanced weaponry"), the supreme god of knowledge closed her portal and had her trapped, but Yukari got out without being sealed / killed / power-reduced, or harmed at all.
A lot of youkai lived. Suika apparently took part in the first one. Yuyuko was present for it as well. She is smart, but she very much "Lost" that one. It didn't go as planned for her.

>>19539512

You can order someone to do something and be 99% sure they'll do it.

Yukari can manipulate someone into doing something and be 99% (or more) sure they'll do it, and seems to know the timings too.

What's the difference?

>>19539512
She actively manipulated the SDM into going to the moon and prepped Reimu for God summoning to be the decoy. Meanwhile she had Yuyuko sneak onto the moon undetected.
Sounds like manipulation to me; outside Yuyuko who I would classify as a 'piece' knowingly in the scheme.

>>19539545

What do you assume her plan was? To kill all of the heavenly gods and all the residents of the Dragon Palace with some youkai? Why would she want to do that?

Point is many youkai are just REEE killing machines, and those were much more common way back then as you can see by the stuff Kosuzu summoning from ancient books and them mostly being immediately violent.

Eirin has made much bigger fuckups than Yukari that got her friend killed and tortured by her own people (kaguya post-elixir), an entire race enslaved (rabbits after Chang'e took the elixir) and ended up with Eirin having to leave the moon and kill everyone who followed her.

>>19539480
your taking everything Yukari, one of the most notorious liers, at face value. Even when she gets completely BTFO she'll still say it was all according to plan.

>>19539548
Can you call it manipulations when she only suggest things, and hell in SSiB every one of her suggestions is refused?

She didn't manipulate Eirin into helping Remilia get to the moon. We don't know how she organized the first invasion, either.

>>19539567
>She actively manipulated the SDM into going to the moon
But she didn't. She said "let's go to the moon together" and they said no. She had no part in how they actually got to the moon either, and while she "trained" Reimu there was also a high chance Reimu wouldn't have even gone to the moon since it was SDM's plot.

>>19539585

Multiple other accounts verify that Moon War 1 did happen, and the strength of the Lunarians is indeed "Several thousand heavenly gods"

Whether Yukari invaded them and got out unharmed isn't up to Yukari's lies, it's just a fact.

Kasen (Ibaraki-douji) messed up and isn't so good at getting away, so she lost an arm.

Unless she was elder-god tier before, Yukari lost nothing and may have gained power in fact since she was able to do the fantasy-reality barrier after that invasion.

>>19539573
>Point is many youkai are just REEE killing machines, and those were much more common way back then as you can see by the stuff Kosuzu summoning from ancient books and them mostly being immediately violent.
That no longer being the case has absolutely nothing to do with the Lunar war though. They continued to be that way for a long time until Gensokyo was made several hundred years later. The fact that you're either under the impression that Gensokyo is least 500 years old or that the first Lunar war happened less than 80 years ago indicates that you should probably reread some things.

Not sure what you're talking about with the other points though. Not that you're wrong; only that it has nothing to do with what I said.

>>19539592
I believe its in the last or so chapter of SSiB. She knew the SDM would probably say no initially, but would eventually want to go to the moon. And yes, she did know that Reimu would get caught up in it. I read all of this very recently.

>>19539592

Implying people, especially Yukari, mean only exactly what they say and can't manipulate people to do something in ways other than a direct order?

Did you even read Forbidden Scrollery and see what she did with Kosuzu? Yukari never said "Go fuck stuff up" but she knew Kosuzu was going to.

>>19539605

I think you are confusing Gensokyo with modern Gensokyo.

Gensokyo was a thing long, long before the first Lunar war. Yukari only modified it with the fantasy-reality barrier 500 years ago and then the Hakurei barrier with the other sages 133 years ago.

Yukari has been "in Gensokyo since ancient times", not "In the land that would become Gensokyo"

>>19539605
>And yes, she did know that Reimu would get caught up in it. I read all of this very recently.
How Reimu got caught up in it:
1) Suggest SDM go to the moon. They begin to.
2) Suggest Yuyuko go to the moon. She doesn't.
3) Yuyuko tells Youmu not to do anything, Youmu spies on Patchouli.
4) Youmu reports to Yuyuko about Patchouli's hangups and is scolded for it, but Yuyuko decides to tell her to suggest they use gods for sea voyage.
5) Finally, so they can do this, Reimu is roped in.

Really, this seems like a solid plan? How is she manipulating Youmu to act on her own, for instance? How would she know exactly what Youmu would do, and how Yuyuko would respond? What about Patchouli? How could she know that Patchouli would accept Youmu's curiosity rather than banishing her like the intruder she was? How could she know that Eirin would help, when Eirin's involvement was due to the completely unrelated arrival of an escaped moon rabbit?

The answer is that she planned none of this, and "just figured things would work themselves out". Essentially the reason she gave for why she left the theft of something from the Lunar Capital to Yuyuko.

>>19539615
See above. What she did with Kosuzu was more of a suggestion that anything she did with Remilia or Yuyuko. With those two she sent Ran to make an offer and that was it. With Kosuzu, she practically gave an entire lecture.

>>19539599
>Kasen (Ibaraki-douji) messed up and isn't so good at getting away, so she lost an arm.
I enjoy you casually throwing in fanon out of nowhere like it's fact. The mystery of Kasen's arm hasn't even gotten any theories as to its loss, and for shit's sake it might not even be in the realm of FANTASY, but the outside world given what she did in ULiL.

>>19539625

She knew it would work though, probably because of Laplace demon predictive abilities.

It would only be one victory among an ocean of a million failures if she was blind-firing at scarring Eirin.

>>19539633
This is not planning then, it's wishing and hoping and thinking things will work out. Like playing billiards during an earthquake or something.

>>19539632
I was referring to the legend of Ibaraki-Douji, which while true is not verified to be 1:1 yet, does involve Ibaraki losing an arm.

>>19539633
>She knew it would work though
you have zero proof she did.

>>19539639

It's planning because she was able to calculate that it would work. It's like playing billiards during an earthquake in a video game where you have all of the bounce and force equations and can choose all of your inputs precisely.

Yukari sunk every ball on the first try. Her power isn't supreme fluke-luck, it's directly stated she's super-intelligent.

>>19539618
We seem to have a misunderstanding of semantics then.

"old Gensokyo" always had violent youkai.

When "old Gensokyo" became "new Gensokyo" rules were put in place which changed how youkai were supposed to act in order to ensure their survival. The Lunar War didn't bring that change. The creation of man-made light/electricity, faith in science and a lack of fear of the dark resulted in youkai losing their presence. "new Gensokyo" was created as a safe place for youkai. Does this sound correct?

>>19539642
Sure, and Eirin just trips around a laboratory until she makes drugs that work on the first try.

>>19539649
All I'm really saying is that when she directly admits that she just let things go as she expected them to and hoped for the best, that is almost the farthest thing from a plan possible.

>>19539654

I am not talking about the slightly upset youkai who doesn't -really- want to obey rules but understands it's for their survival.

I am talking about the "Oh hey I exist time to fuck things up" not even speaking kind of youkai, like Nurarihyon that Kosuzu released.

>>19539625
You're kidding right?
>2) Suggest Yuyuko go to the moon. She doesn't.
During that instance, even Youmu finds it odd that she said no. They had to be careful and have it appear that nobody was actually working with Yukari so Eirin's information that she would relay to the sisters would be incomplete.
And with that little bit, everything else you listed shows as being part of the plan. She planned everything down to the moment she would have to prostrate to the Lunarian.

>>19539659

That's how all plans work, you might have an investment plan so you buy and sell stocks and hope you don't get crashed by some macro event.

>>19539666
I'm not sure what you're trying to argue then? Since those still exist in the new Gensokyo. They just tend to be either sealed, unsealed and subsequently exterminated, or underground like all other exceedingly dangerous youkai.

>>19539679

I'm saying there were more of them back then, and Yukari saying "Free WAR tickets who wants to come just hop through the portal" is natural selection for ultra violent youkai who want to fight everything.

>>19539659
>"It can't be a plan. All she did was set things up to get a result and hoped they worked!"
You mean, a plan?

>>19539668
I can see that making sense in theory but at least don't remember any direct confirmation of it. Also I don't believe Eirin had any suspicions toward Yuyuko in the first place. She only ever spied on SDM, who was openly discussing their intentions, so I don't see what you're talking about there. Eirin's information network on Gensokyo isn't that large and mostly relies on rumor mill rabbits.

And I still don't see how "it's all part of the plan!" could be true for how many ways the plan could fail, as well as, well, the direct admittance that parts of her "plan" were up to the whims of others and the hope that nothing would fuck up.

>>19539676
Stocks? That's not really what I'd use for something referred to as a "plan". I guess it's not TECHNICALLY gambling, but...

I still think ultimately this all boils down to Yukari and Eirin being opposites. It's like, compare her plan to "save" that human the sisters took into the capital to Yukari's horse shit and the difference is entirely stark.

>>19539687
A plan actually has people working on it to the letter, not a gamble on the whims of others.

>>19539684
Is there evidence that that's why? Because it sounds more like a fan theory than what actually happened.
>I'm saying there were more of them back then.
You don't know how many though. There is no indication. There was 'a lot' but that amount can also have been accounting for everything that doesn't outright kill anymore.

>>19539693

A good plan has room to account for unforeseen events and adaptation to new information.

Generals make plans against each other in war, but don't know every supply truck that will break down on the way to the front.

>>19539701
Addendum:

And they hope it's a low number. Still a plan.

>>19539689
>>19539693
Well if you don't find it believable that a genius that could calculate the depth of avici in her head couldn't predict the actions of a few people after some planned nudges, that's fine. It was a plan. Whether you find it believable that it worked is up to you and how the writing of SSiB was handled.

>>19539710

I can see it now:

Bougetsushou 2:

Yukari tricks the Lunarians again with the exact same tactics for the exact same purpose because they think the first time was a fluke and refuse to learn anything about Yukari.

They haven't learned anything about her for 1000 years despite Eirin living in the same world as her, why start now?

Result: Eirin so messed up she wets the bed every night now.

>>19539701
A general has soldiers following their orders. Who followed Yukari's orders in her "plan" aside from Ran?

More importantly so much of this alleged plan hangs on
-Lunarians NOT murdering people flat out.
-Eirin somehow thinking it's a good idea to help SDM. Again, there is nothing Yukari did to have her become interested in this. Reisen left the moon for reasons of alleged Lunar conspiracy as well as her own fears, which sparked Eirin's concern, which made her eventually interested in SDM's antics in order to deflect suspicion. And where in this is the planned factor Yukari has? Because without the Lunar Veil, the rocket could have not made it to the capital.

>>19539710
I find it believable that Yukari got what she wanted, but not that everything happened was due to her masterful organization and manipulation, especially when she admits that she couldn't actually be sure that the one, CRUCIAL PART (the thing Yuyuko took, which would shake Eirin), the crux of the plan, was not close to guaranteed.

>>19539729
>>19539693
>>19539689
>>19539625
Like I said. Read the last chapter. Yukari explains everything. It was a plan. She admits that Yuyuko going through the gap was a small gamble, but it was all her plan.

>>19539729

She was trying to downplay here predictive abilities there mate, she's not Okina.

She makes astronomical/supposed-to-be-impossible calculations instantaneously in her head multiple times, calculating how people will do things without them knowing is very simple.

If you want to think it was a fluke go ahead, but then you're falling into the same trap the Lunarians fell into.

>>19539740
I've read it, and there's nothing about Eirin's involvement, only that she needed to parties + Yuyuko. That was what she wanted, and her hand in actually getting things to work to that end was... just about, no, almost entirely not present. She gave two suggestions and did her own thing while expecting things to go well. That, as far as I'm concerned, means it's ALL a gamble. Like playing a round of any game of chance and saying "Just as planned" when you get the best results. No.

>>19539746
I repeat that the point she has is mystery and unpredictability, and that if things actually do have a logic and complete sense to them then it isn't "youkai-like". If she wanted guarantees, and no mystery, she would have had further involvement, a proper planning of events, rather than expecting and figuring things would work out.

>>19539751

Yes.

She spent more than a month preparing this and only did it once in over a thousand years of Eirin in Gensokyo (based on time of the bamboo cutter tale).

It was a plan. Possibly a gambit, but Yukari knew how it would turn out. You seem to think Yukari needs her hands directly in something to control it.

>>19539761
That is what control implies.

>>19539751
>That, as far as I'm concerned, means it's ALL a gamble.
Then, I will say it one more time. That's more on your opinion that Yukari could believably manipulate people with a nudge here and there. It's still a plan. One that involved gambling? Maybe to someone who can't manipulate people. For Yukari? While nothing is guaranteed, it would be a lot more likely.

>>19539765

If you have the power to calculate the depth of Avicii in your mind, a brain is so simple to you that you could control what someone decides to eat for dinner by the kind of greeting you give them in the morning.

Her intelligence is beyond conventional "They should know X".

>>19539771
Then don't call her a chessmaster, since chess isn't about gambles.

>>19539776
What does that have to do with control

>>19539779

Yes it is? The computers that are superior to any human who has ever lived at chess are just picking the next move with the highest -odds- of winning.

>>19539779
That wasn't me anon, but I'll bite. Chess at high levels is not just looking several moves in advanced on all fronts, its also getting a read on what your opponent will do. Which, by your definition of 'reading people' is gambling.

Reminder: According to ZUN, Yukari was originally going to be a literal meta-perspective character.

It's only natural she is able to know a lot of things others find confusing.

>>19539786
no,Chess is completely mapped out and has zero "chance" and RNG.

>>19539786
>>19539794
Would you say that the game is literally all about gambles? Which is why I said "about gambles"? Chess is a gambling game of pure chance?

Maybe for a computer, but not for a human.

>>19539798

You literally do not understand the mathematics behind AlphaZero do you?

It uses weighted RNG to pick its moves (meaning it can be difficult to predict as it will make a strange move maybe 1/1000 times) and is superior to the more deterministic StockFish in every conceivable way.

https://www.chess.com/news/view/google-s-alphazero-destroys-stockfish-in-100-game-match

>>19539811

Note: Both AlphaZero and Stockfish are beyond what any human has ever achieved

>>19539825
You know what sure if you want to think of Yukari as computer-ish, and she is by her level of intelligence, she could indeed somehow predict the way everything would go by only doing four things (training Reimu, making two offers, and opening a portal). She could predict with a high amount of accuracy that it would all work out, even if she couldn't exactly predict how at the end.

But I can't call that a plan when her efforts and involvement are minimal, and when things still could've easily gone horribly for her in a multitude of ways due to actors acting outside of her control and prediction. Further honestly I'm not trying to diminish Yukari by saying she's not a masterful planner and manipulator. Personally, I prefer the idea of a confusing existence that may or may not be influencing all of reality, and may or may not be serious in most to any of their actions. I like the idea of Yukari a lot as what she is: an unexplained phenomenon in the shape of a person. That's fine by me, and why I think saying she definitely, unequivocally, orchestrated the events of SSiB it's missing the point of her character.

Yukarifags are worst

>>19539857

Fair enough. I am definitely going the computer-intelligence route with Yukari. Eirin has the most humanlike intelligence in the universe bar-none being the heavenly god of knowledge and all.

The only way she could likely be outdone is with supreme amounts of raw calculation. Which Yukari has been shown to possess multiple times, with even her lackey able to compute the width of the sanzu and herself able to compute the depth of Avicii and the collision of astronomical bodies.

I think the "creature in the gap" is indeed a slightly crappier version of the Laplace demon, and it is referred to as the Laplace demon in a spellcard (and said Yukari can see with those eyes).

If you're unfamiliar, the Laplace demon uses mathematics + information to be able to know the past and future. The "real" one knows with 100% certainty where every atom in the universe will be in a trillion years, so Yukari's can't be that good.

But even a nerfed version of it would allow Yukari to know people's actions way ahead of time, to a high degree of certainty.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace%27s_demon

In my view, she is the sukima youkai who wants mysteriousness (body we see), merged with the computational power of the Laplace demon (eyes in the gap). Both parts of her surface at different times.

>>19539857
You make it sound like manipulating a few people like this is more complicated than a game of chess against a grand master. It's not.

>>19539943
I mainly mean "chessmaster" in a "trope" sense of a person who manipulates or directly moves a whole lot of people and events in a story to their ends, but I would argue Yukari hardly even does any manipulation or movement of other characters. She may have a good idea of what will happen, and act much behind the scenes, but I wouldn't say she actually bends others to her will or anything.

>>19539953
>but I wouldn't say she actually bends others to her will or anything.
All I'm going to say is that she definitely does nudges and suggestions to get people to do exactly what she wants without them realizing. You don't have to agree with me on that since I think I've said all I can and you don't accept it only on your idea of believability. That's fine. I don't think we're going to get anywhere discussing it further.

>>19539953

She permanently enslaves things with magic

>>19539985
just animals

>>19539994

A Kyuubi is more powerful than almost any kind of youkai, on part with a god and far more intelligent than a human.

>>19539983
I think she does as well, just not usually by actually interacting with them. Take how she morphs the culture of Gensokyo, for instance; nothing is concrete but most people are pretty sure its tendencies, philosophies, and habits are due to her influence. In that way alone she definitely plays a big role in how many in that society think, which I'm sure helps.

I always figured Yukari was half superintelligence and half bullshit. Like, yeah she outwitted the Lunarins by sneaking Yuyuko into the Lunar Capital, but claiming it was all to spook Eirin was just a retroactive justification.

>>19540006
still just a smelly fox

>>19540015
nonsense. she just wanted the booze.

This is a good thread.

>>19540015

How, when the title of chapter 1 of SSiB is "The Sage's Plan."

Being a youkai, she just got the most valuable thing a youkai could ever obtain:

The lasting fear of the brightest mind in the galaxy, and one that will never die.

Calling it "To spook Eirin" is throwing the significance of it under the bus.

To this very day Eirin is paranoid as fucc and even built a Yukari detector.

>>19539051
>Disregarding ZUN's word just because it doesn't fit with your headcanon perception of a character
Though equating Reimu's aloof personality to her abilities is conjecture itself, saying that she's nothing but human when the other characters in-setting don't even believe that is absurd. She's a tool of the divine armed to fight supernatural situations, either due to being given her abilities by her patron diety, or due to being engineered that way by said diety/Yukari. In a way, that does make her like a youkai, since like the original youkai she's a purpose-built tool. It is akin to claiming that a stealth bomber and a recreational biplane from the 30s are technically the same thing. Sure, you can with some imagination use the former for most of the duties of the latter, but one is clearly built to a higher standard and purpose than the other and has vastly different capabilities.

>>19540039
No, calling it "to spook Eirin" is perfectly true because when Yukari isn't being serious (this is most of the time), she's being incredibly silly, which in itself would bother Eirin who knows that casually presenting her a gift of something a youkai should absolutely not have would blow her mind.

>>19540015
I imagine Yukari works a bit like a computer accessing a server, to extend the analogy. Any information she technically doesn't actually know can be obtained through breaking the boundary of knowledge and ignorance for that specific piece of knowledge. This would also mean she could forget anything at will, and also means that she doesn't need to memorize anything more than she needs to, aside from how to directly access stored memories.

>>19540049
Even humans can have exceptional inherent traits. Reimu's is high spiritual power.

>>19540066

The Laplace demon can substitute for that boundary and allow her to hyperthonk-calculate anything

>>19538694
It's true that Reimu has a somewhat Taoist mindset. However, the only reason why Reimu can have such a easy and carefree life most of the time is because of her privilege and power. She would be miserable living in the Human Village as a farmer, and she knows that. That's the only reason why she cares about Gensokyo.

Well, unless she genuinely thinks Gensokyo existing is a good thing for anybody. Then she's just sociopathic and evil.

>>19535199
>Youkai need human fear or misconception; gods require faith. Without these, their power fades and they eventually cease to exist.
As for youkai, this is disproven with the introduction of Okina and Aunn. Youkai can be created from sources of tremendous magical energy. This is actually why I seriously thought about reimu being a youkai. She's just too perfect of a tool to serve the goals of the youkai sages, I wouldn't be surprised if she were one.

>achieve and maintain power through training and ritual alone
I don't expect Hakurei "Get Rich Quick" Reimu to be able to have the patience for this.

>>19538974
What really fucked Eirin up is that Yuyuko (in her thoughts, Yukari) stole the perfect thing to stick it to the Lunarians. Yukari had no intention of stealing a bottle of sake, just something valuable.
Credit where credit is due to Yukari planning the heist out, but Yuyuko chose the prize that would deal Eirin the worst damage.

>>19541016
dumb deluded debasement of diligent divine debutante

>>19541125
>Yuyuko chose the prize that would deal Eirin the worst damage
She chose the sake because the lunarians wouldn't be able to take it back, not because "it would deal the worst damage" to eirin. Any trinket from the lunar capital would have had the same effect because eirin thought it was impossible to infiltrate.

>>19541125
>this is disproven with the introduction of Okina and Aunn
I would say this proves nothing. Koma-Inu are already a thing. All she did was give the Kami in the statue enough energy to manifest into a youkai.

>>19541167
Nice abbreviation. Even if Reimu isn't a Debutante. Or diligent. Or divine.

>>19541125
>Youkai can be created from sources of tremendous magical energy.
Objects can be made to manifest as youkai by imbuing them with massive amounts of mana, it won't sustain them, and not even Okina can create a youkai from nothing. Aunn had already been a komainu for years before getting enough energy to animate.
>I don't expect Hakurei "Get Rich Quick" Reimu to be able to have the patience for this.
She already does, albeit lazily. This even comes back to bite her in SSiB.

>>19539136
>>19539241
>But, she could not have. She could have made a failed rocket.
Yukari planted resources that would help them build the rocket, and Remilia noticed she was doing it. Bougetsushou is what, the third time Remilia's tried to travel to the moon? The first two times ran into obstacles, but after Yukari goaded her suddenly Kourindou was filled with books on space travel that fell through the barrier (which Yukari controls).

>>19539668
The reason Yuyuko understood Yukari's plan is because she had Ran mention Yuyuko's role in the first Lunar War. And the first Lunar War is where they discovered that Yuyuko didn't trip the moon's impurity sensors.

>>19539480
Yukari's secret is that she avoids fair fights whenever possible, and only emerges from hiding when she's sure she'll win. She's been blindsided by Sunny Milk of all people.
The PoFV prologue story had her gathering information on the incident by running around implying that she already knew everything about the incident, thereby tricking people into sharing their information on it. She tries the same trick in AoCF, and the Miko+Byakuren team actually see through it (resulting in Miko getting mad and demanding that Yukari share her info first, until Byakuren talks her down).

>>19541690
>abbreviation
lol

>>19539402
"Serious gensokyo lore discussion" are consistently some of the worst threads on /jp/
I don't even know how they manage it.

>>19539900
but the body we see is so cute and huggable, are you sure she doesn't want hugs?

>>19544124
people want to feel smarter than others while being able to use anonymity to have no consequences when they get called out for being a dipshit

>>19544124
Honestly this. How about we just limit this board to image dump threads?

>>19545369
only if they're centered around good girls who actually make it into the top 100 of my sort unlike your pic related

First read through is idolizing the Earth 2hus. Second read through is realizing the Lunarians were right.

>>19547537

First read through is thinking Lunarians are decently intelligent.

Second read through is realizing they had 10+ opportunities to realize it was a Yukari plot and missed ALL of them.

Yukari even tells Toyohime directly "This was all the work of a single foolish youkai" And Toyohime doesn't take the hint.

>>19544014
Ah, right. It's alliteration

>>19519350
the moon bitches, and all lunarians, are unlikable cuntrags. they have all these deviantart OP powers but are actually glass cannons, they lost to a SINGLE buzz aldrin or lost to a SINGLE FUCKING FAIRY

>>19547986
To be fair, Clownpiece is a nightmare. And Neil Armstrong is the God Emperor of Mankind in the Touhou universe. So, it's really not that surprising that they lost.

>>19539402
thats all these threads ever are, especially now that some /vg/ reject grimderp retard has taken up residence in half of them

>>19547570
>they had 10+ opportunities to realize it was a Yukari plot and missed ALL of them.
They knew it was a Yukari plot. First Toyohime kills Yukari's crow and immediately identifies it as her doing. Then Eirin outright tells the Watatsukis that Yukari is using Remilia as a diversion and that Toyohime should lie in wait for her.

Yukari won because she managed to stop any of her enemies from learning about Yuyuko, so they thought the plan ended with "Yukari sneaks in".

紫「ちょっと　そんなにきつく縛って　跡が残ったらどうするのよ」
豊「よかったわね　月まで来た手土産になるじゃない。
　　ちなみに　その紐を切ろうったって無理だからね
　　フェムトファイバーの組紐」
紫「フェムト？」
豊「フェムトわかりやすく言うと須臾
　　須臾とは生き物が認識できない僅かな時のことよ
　　時間とは、認識できない時が無数に積み重なってできています
　　時間の最小単位である須臾が認識できないから
　　時間は連続に見えるけど
　　本当は短い時が組み合わさってできているの
　　組紐も1本の紐のようだけど
　　本当は細い紐が組み合わさっているもの
　　認識できない細さの繊維で組まれた組紐は
　　限りなく連続した物質に見えるでしょう
　　そのとき紐から余計な物がなくなり最強の強度を誇る
　　さらには余計な穢れもつかなくなるのです
　　この紐をさらに組み合わせて太い縄にすることで
　　決して腐らない縄ができる
　　その縄は遥か昔から
　　不浄な者の出入りを禁じるために使われてきたのよ」
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm33415397

>>19550376
>http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm33415397
he should go back to making MMD manzai

>>19547986
the buzz aldrin thing is a fucking meme, nothing more.

>>19553880

The fuck are you talking about secondary? Didn't read the manga and just think it's too outlandish to be real?

Maybe it was more than Buzz in Touhouverse but the Lunarians did lose the majority of their rabbit forces in the US-Lunar War.

Unless you think they have reason to lie with nobody else around.

Reisen canonically fled because the fighting against the US was too intense.

>>19554184

This is my favorite lore because it means either thousands of rabbits spontaneously exploded

Or the USA has space marines in Touhou

>>19554184
>>19554236
it's neither, nothing about the original text (or even that translation, at that) implies the rabbits died, they just ran off, which we know the rabbits do

reisen escaped before anything even happened because she was too scared of even the possibility of fighting, and all signs point towards there having been no actual fighting at all

the lunarians perceived the lunar missions as intentional acts of aggression by the humans when all we did is land on the moon and orbit a bunch, this is pretty much spelled out in cilr when eirin keeps phrasing things as though the humans were defeated whenever the missions were just over and we went back home; humans literally had no idea about the lunarians being there but the lunarians think they did because they're egotistical as fuck and think the whole thing was about them, which makes this hilarious

>>19536688
>Try being a puppet in your own body forced to kneel for her and do her chores forever. She did it to a kyuubi.
Ran is free to disobey Yukari, this is why there's an article about her being punished.

>>19554973
Sure. But Yukari almost certainly has the power to completely brainwash people if she wanted.

>>19554236

>>19554973

Ran can disobey Yukari, but the original kitsune can't even twitch what was once its own finger.

Ran is a different consciousness, see Ran's bit in SCoOW.

"While she employs several shikigami, the one she makes the most use of is Ran Yakumo. Be careful though: Ran Yakumo is strictly the shikigami, and the nine-tailed fox youkai she is possessing is an entirely different being. However, since the original fox never shows on the surface at all, there's no problem in thinking of Ran Yakumo as a nine-tailed fox."

>>19532730
I always liked moonwhores. All of them.

>>19554796

Hmmm "Not many left" 49 years later, and IN was all about Lunarians literally staging an effort to get Reisen U back.

Are Lunarians just that bad at hide and seek in your opinion? 49 years and they're still gone because they just ran off?

>>19554796

Junko says there was fighting in LoLK though, and says the humans were injured (though they successfully planted their flags)

>>19554184
Nothing in this suggests that they have few rabbits left because rest died. Reisen fucking ran away. Multiple other official works show the "war" as stupid rabbits overreacting and getting scared and then Watatsukis fucking up the secret US moon base. We even see it's ruins.

>>19556756

So they weren't able to round up the rest of the rabbits in 49 years because ???

>>19556817
Rabbits scared of the war proved to be trash soldiers so they were laid off? Or they ran away and refused to serve anymore? They went after Reisen because she was the most talented one it don't meant they went after all of them.

>>19556844
>Refuse to serve

They're literal slaves though

>>19519350
Because they're fucking boring. It's annoying when people don't like them and they're met with "lololo u dont like them cuz they beat Reimu and Yukari". Touhou has plenty of schemers and OP characters that work on a level above the regular protagonists. Eirin herself is extremely interesting and runs circles around most people because she's an immortal goddess. But the Watatsukis are just fucking dull.

>>19519749
>trolling
That’s kind of all Touhou stories

>there’s a threat somewhere
>we can all destroy the world
>defeats threat
Threat says “nah I was kidding yo”
>everyone is friends and drinks tea

>>19557511
Eh, not really. Only SA and LoLK were really world threatening.

>>19557696
Dream Tenshi was gonna destroy the entire multiverse lmao heaven brat

>>19557719
Really? I still didn't play AoCF. Isn't dream world kinda invalid because it's just a dream world?

>>19557747
The dream people had invaded the real world that is the main problem after Joon and Shion are beaten

>>19554236
They don't need Space Marines. Their believe in BURNING AMERICAN FREEDOM! Is all they need to bitch slap those pathetic Lunarians back to the stone age.

>>19557696
Well yeah, but all the girls are pretty strong. Even Rumia would probably be able to destroy a continent in a few minutes. But the stakes in most of the games usually seem pretty high even though the dialogue is usually pure snark

>>19559062
>Even Rumia would probably be able to destroy a continent in a few minutes.
Perhaps if it was nothing but stone-age tribals, but a major theme in Touhou is the fact that machines BTFO of your average youkai, even the crappy WWI-era tanks that can be thwarted by a well placed bottle of burning oil are something to be feared by them due to their nature and the very reason the barrier had to be made to begin with. VIVIT is capable of fighting toe to toe with Reimu and shreds what few youkai she comes across like confetti, and she's a mass-produced android.

>>19547986
What if, they're only saying they have these powers in order to make themselves intimidating but actually lost them centuries ago when Japan became secular and most of their God-Lunarians lost faith? It explains why they just roll over against the Americans and Fairies even though these should be non-issues if their powers were to be believed.

>>19559142
I'm not sure what's dumber, his rumia headcanon or your humanity fuck yeah mental disease headcanon, wait no it's the later.

>>19557337
Really fucking lazy ones.

>>19559253
Would you work hard for moon bitches ?

>>19556737
It wasn't the Lunarians trying to get Reisen back in IN. The moon rabbits were spreading rumors about a battle that never happened and spooked them into causing the events of IN. It was literally nothing. In CiLR it's said clearly that they don't actually give a shit about Eirin and Kaguya coming back anymore, and this is partially due to the Watatsukis taking over that area of command but not doing anything about them because they trust Eirin.

When you read IN in a vacuum as an isolated story it also doesn't neatly fit with later works. I find it exceedingly likely that ZUN wrote Bougetsushou in a way to mold the interpretation of IN into something more sensible and a bit more consistent with what he wanted to write. Some things were written over entirely; in IN it states they couldn't have come to get them anyways because of the Barrier, but this is changed later very obviously and the reasoning instead becomes what I wrote above.

I think you're greatly overestimating the level of control the Lunarians have over individual rabbits. Their depictions consistently seem to be them doing menial bullshit and slacking around and everyone is aware of it. I think of them more like the fairy maids at SDM but "forced" to be there.

>>19556753
She mentions to Sanae that "they say the Apollo 11 crew were wounded" and Sanae goes "wait what" and it stops there. This is only hearsay from Junko, so it's difficult to tell if the intention is to be actual information (which seems to conflict with CiLR), or if it's Junko that was fed exaggerated rumors of Lunarian triumph, which to me seems perfectly in line with Lunarian interpretation of the events.

>>19559225
No, it's the Rumia headcanon. Touhou characters are not DBZ tier stupidly overpowered. Let alone Rumia, of all Youkai.

>>19559533
Even slaves sing river songs

Tenshi or any other celestial would 1shot Yorihime, Yukari, Reimu, or anyone and turn her into cosmic dust by the way

>>19559142
>machines BTFO of your average youkai

Literally what? Normal weapons don't even work on youkai. At all.

>>19559825
never said they weren't slaves

>>19559225
>It's the misanthropist cuckposter again

>>19560124
They're ultra durable and have ludicrous regenerative ability, But they aren't exempt from physics
Normal weapons cannot kill them, But a rifle shot to the head will still put them on their ass from kinetic energy
However, fire was noted as one thing that can kill them, and there's a lot of things that make that

>>19560703
This
They're strong and fast, But their size and mass would still be that of a small woman, 40-55kg range, and can be moved around just as easily despite their enhanced nature, deny them leverage or a place to plant themselves, and they'll go down like any other

>>19565904
Nah they can block a telephone pole impact didn't you play the fighters?

Also Yukari has blocked Rinnosuke see swinging a wallet at her full force with just her fingertips.

Did you think physics apply to youkai?

>>19566391
Autocorrect hell.

Rinnosuke swinging a mallet at her full force.

>>19566401
Was she planted on solid ground with full awareness that the blow was incoming?
If she knows a hit is coming, of course she'd rev up the magic to stop it in its tracks, that's easy for her and common sense
What happens when a youkai is completely blindsided by a strike and given no opportunity to react is my question

>>19566401
What kind of shit phone autocorrects mallet to wallet? M isn't even close to W, they're almost as far as can be.
phoneposters need to be gassed

>>19519350

>>19574328

>>19566391
Physics don't apply to Yukari because she can bend them at will with her abilities. For lower powered youkai, their physical avatars would have to respect at least being shoved around or they wouldn't be able to eat and digest people, either.
>>19560124
>>19559225
Machines are extremely dangerous to Youkai, but not for the reason most assume. A single missile or Karl Gerrat could vaporize the Human Village and starve every Youkai still in Gensokyo, Yukari included, in an instant. The more outside world technology is adopted in Gensokyo, the larger the chances that it could be misused to end life as we know it there, which is why the sages are in no hurry to let the Human Village reach parity with the rest of Japan. Likewise, they either naturally decrease superstition as people understand how they work, or they increase it in a bad way as people come to rely on them and give them faith instead of giving the faith to gods or youkai, which infuses them with the ability to harm Youkai for real.

They also don't feel fear, and they have no spiritual energy so for a Youkai looking at them in motion, it would be like a human looking at a walking corpse, which makes them too spooky for yook, hence the common Japanese saying that spirits are afraid of electricity.

>>19574459

Yukari doesn't rely on the human village lmao

No strong youkai does

Mamizou didn't even come in until 2011 and not because she was fading, because she felt like it

>>19574459
>>19575152

Yukari in particular has Eirin's fear, that was the point of the manga in this topic anyways.

Third person omniscient that Eirin was "deeply scarred" and that it was something she would "never be able to forget" too.

Even if the planet got meteor'd Yukari could survive off the fear of the unkillable Eirin. She's a knowledge god so her brain is probably more than the village's brains combined anyways.

There is a very good reason Yukari's plans exceed those of Eirin, She's a psych major in a universe that is literally governed by human belief. The reason she wins isn't because she makes deeper calculations or has a recourse for every situation. She's set up Gensokyo in such a way that her losing is inconceivable to Joe Human Village. Her victory was the cause, the plan and details were the effect.

Lunarians aren't going to shed blood, that would just ruin the whole purity thing.

Yori's cool. Toyo should burn in hell.

>>19575992
rude.

>>19575992

The Lunarians aren't going to shed blood

Lmao what? You realize they are some of the most murder-happy beings in the lore and annihilated an entire youkai army with advanced weapons.

They killed Kaguya even though she respawns just to torture her, THEN sent her to Earth.

Eirin killed all of the Lunarians who went with her to the moon.

Tsukuyomi murdered a god because he thought the god was gross, which is what caused Amaterasu to leave.

>>19577271

Eirin killed all the Lunarians who went with her to take Kaguya back to the moon *

>19577271
There are ways to murder without risking kegare. Remember, the idea is to keep the moon from being soiled with disgusting mortality. So killing in any fashion on the Earth is just fine, that place is all impure anyway.
Also, disintegration like the LoLK troops were doing doesn't shed blood or leave a corpse.
A big-ass sword like Yorihime was using, however, does, which is why the fight between her and Reimu ended like it did.

This is also why the US soldiers were such a big deal - they weren't advanced enough to pose a genuine military threat, but if they managed to kill even one proper Lunarian? Things would go bad, fast.

>>19578103

But it's too late for that, ZUN said the moon is already impure. Maybe from Moon war 1, maybe Lunarians just suck at purification rituals and (the human-based Lunarians) were never pure in the first place.

>>19575152
>Yukari doesn't rely on the human village lmao
She doesn't rely on it. But losing the Human Village would still completely fuck up her plans for Gensokyo, and wipe out most of the Youkai population. At which point, a strong enough hero or a large enough army would be able to kill her.

>>19575182
If everybody expect Yukari and Eirin died though. Then Eirin would just track down and easily kill Yukari. And, having done so, she would no longer fear her. Thus causing her to die forever.

>>19575992
Yukari is a smart one. But she's also smug, arrogant, pointlessly cruel, and a massive bitch. That is going to bite her in the ass eventually. And when it does, not much will be left of the girl.

>>19578766
Yukari will be the ruler of this universe one day and there's nothing you can do to stop it.