/jp/ - Otaku Culture

No. Human villagers in Gensokyo have it pretty good. There's no war, and since the introduction of the spellcard rules there is a prohibition of youkai eating human villagers.

whats with this recent uptick in template threads

>>18558151
All these undeleted youtuber and fate generals and oteh roff board threads, + people here because of gachimuchi dying have the crossboarders feeling welcome but alienated without their shitty memes around. .

>>18558485
That's no excuse

>>18558494
It's a reason, not an excuse.

>>18558121
So is Yukari her Master now?

>>18558121
The only truth is Youkaisuzu is super cute and my wife!

>>18558121
No.

She had every right to feel betrayed over how Reimu's real job is nowhere near as virtuous as the red-white paints it to be, though.

>>18558121
Yes.

>>18558121
Humanity Fuck Yeah is a Mental Illness that needs to be cured.

Forbidden Scrollery Volume 7 is Yukari status quo propaganda.

The Kosuzu who questions Gensokyo's order is evil, ugly both inside and out and has no friends.

When she stops questioning things, she's cute and has friends again.

It literally has Yukari's picture on it.

>>18564831
I want to see the look on Yukari's face when events in VFiS overturn her status quo not in favor of humans, but to the true oppressed group, the fairies. The fairies fear the humans and the humans fear the youkai, but soon even youkai will fear the fairies.

>>18564831

She was trying to bring peace, freedom, justice, and security to her new empire.

>>18564904
not happening because Okina knows exactly what is going on.

>>18564958
Eternity will just have Cirno defeat Okina again, like she did twice before. Except this time Okina won't be the one controlling Cirno's influx of power.

>>18564922
the face that toppled a stage four boss and playable character

>>18564973
okina defeated cirno the first time and let the player win the second time.

once again yukarifags are retarded brainlet secondaries.

>>18558121
Yes. The human villagers lot is pretty miserable one. And keeping this status quo means that potentially troublesome figures have to be eliminated. It's pretty dystopian, even if the average villager probably isn't constantly miserable.

>>18559034
Reimu is pretty much supporting a murderous dictatorship. She's more Heinrich Himmler, than any kind of noble protector of the people.

>>18560921
I wonder how many innocent people were killed just because they "MIGHT" be at risking of becoming a leader.

>>18564815
Not wanting everybody you love and know to be treated as glorified cattle isn't "Humanity, fuck yeah" though. It's being a decent person.

>>18558542

Every toho belongs to Yukari

>>18564922
Her new empire?

>>18565570
HEIL
YUKARI YAKUMO
YES

Leave it to /tg/ crossboarders to go on about Touhou being grimdark

>>18566258
I'm not from /tg/, and i don't think Touhou is grimdark. I just think the human villagers have shit dystopian lives.

>>18565570
>Not wanting everybody you love and know to be treated as glorified cattle isn't "Humanity, fuck yeah" though. It's being a decent person.

The notion that they are just "glorified cattle" is pure spin, though. A distortion of the facts to make their situation sound more dire than it really is, simply because their culture, society, and the very world they inhabit doesn't align with your idea of how things should be.

waaaah these villagers live extremely simply in a tight nit community how awful
Fuck off idiots

>>18566954
It doesn't align with what i think is a happy life. And while i imagine most villagers are at least reasonably content with their life. I never got the implication from the print work that they're particularly happy.

>>18567544
I don't find the idea of a simple life particulary appealing, and the same is true for a lot of people. And a tight nit community has it's massive downsides.

>>18567544
like that's the only problem the Human Village has

fucking humans here are paranoid about other humans controlling politics and our lifestyle without our approval. Humans are obsessed with the idea of freedom.

let alone youkai that not only eat humans but is 100x stronger than an average human.

>>18564904
>the true oppressed group, the fairies
Fairies have it the best out of anyone. Their immortal, have no responsibilities, and spend most of their days just fucking around. Sure most of them are pretty much retarded but they dont seem too care. Id love too be a 2hu fairy.

>>18564904
>The fairies fear the humans
Literally the opposite buddy. The fairies are local dickasses. The only oppression that fairies suffers are local lolicons.

>>18567807
Exactly. Youkai are way more powerful than humans. There is no way people in the human village can live their lives without being paranoid.

>>18558121
How I win the heart of this evil cutie?

>>18564904
The fairies don't fear the humans.
Some of them like the Three Fairies are just afraid because if they do something wrong in the Human Village they'll get punished by Youkai.

>>18567807
All living creatures desire freedom in some capacity. That's why most animals try to escape from their cage if possible. The only reason why the human villagers are able to function at all is because they don't realize there in a cage. Or at least, not the full extent of how much they are traped.

>>18567807
>but is 100x stronger than an average human
Why do people interpret youkai being stronger than humans as them being some sort of supermen? Bears, tigers, gorillas, they're all stronger, but not by 100x.

>>18568147
>>18568005
>>18567934
They're killed and injured all the time by anyone, human or youkai. Akyuu even says as much.

>>18568224
Yes, but they are literally too stupid too care. They have no concept of death so for them dying is just a momentary inconvenience.

>>18568216
It's called a Figure of Speech.

also you can't exactly compare normal animals to Youkai. Rumia is literally one of the weakest and stupidest 2hus but is a threat level medium.
Humans like Marisa and Reimu exist but they're not exactly commonplace.

>>18568224
Yeah, because their definition of "prank" is this, so they deserve every ounce of bullying. Read the manga man.

>>18568341
That wasn't a prank and everyone was happy. You read it.

>>18568341
It was just a prank bro

>>18568100
By killing Reimu

>>18569858
I said manga not chapter. Also you mentioned Akyuu but I like how you forgot to say that she also comments on how pesky they are and how she literally encourages to bully them.

>>18570482
>Akyuu
Can she even have children

>>18570583
She's a woman, isn't she

>>18570840
but shes dying in like 13 years so it would be irresponsible to have kids now.

>>18570482
She's just jealous that the fairies are stealing the lifeforce from Gensokyo's male population.

>>18570482
>I like how you forgot to say that she also comments on how pesky they are and how she literally encourages to bully them.
I like how you forgot my point was that humans pick on fairies and thus fairies are oppressed by humans. Encouraging people to bully is oppression, is it not?

>>18570893
>dying in like 13 years
Six and a half, actually. She was born in August 1994, and her reincarnations usually don't make it past 30.

>>18571007
Humans pick on fairies because they are annoying little shits. Goddammit man read what you quote, you're dense as Ciruno herself.

>>18571066
Will Zun actually go through with it?

>>18571073
Akyuu tries to prolong her lifespan so who knows.

>>18571068
Are you saying they're not oppressed? A rape victim that was asking for it was still raped, after all. Fairies are oppressed and fear humans because they bully and harm them. It doesn't matter why they do, but even Akyuu encourages it.

I mean youkai only bother humans because they need to do it to stay alive, but humans are considered oppressed cattle instead of youkai welfare providers handing out spooks to poor youks.

>>18571082
What if Akyuu became a youkai herself?

>>18571160
>A rape victim that was asking for it was still raped
It's not rape if both parties give consent.

>>18571171
would probably be killed

>>18571073
He wont. She's far too valuable of a character that he can still do alot with. He'll probably come up with a reason for why she has a prolonged lifespan or literally just forget about the whole thing (like he probably has, lets be honest). PMiSS already had some vagueness in her writing that times have changed so the role of the Child of Miare isnt really necessary anymore. In general ZUN wont kill off characters because it would be awkward for other creators (and himself) and back when he created Akyuu he didnt know the series would still be going by the time this inevitability rolled around.

>>18571171
The Crimson Slasher would have a word or two with her. Then we'll never see her again.

>>18571262
He could always just timeskip or have her get immediately reincarnated or something. Have her become a CD character and meet Merryberry in the future.

Yukari
Did
Nothing
Wrong

>>18571719
Truth, bro.

>>18571719
>Mass murdering innocent people.
>Abducting and eating children and adults for fun.
>Spying on the human village, and presumably killing any potentially troublesome figures.
>Starting wars.

Yukari did almost everything wrong.

>>18572006
>innocent people
Probably mostly suicidal sorts or scum(rapists, murderers, etc, since mental illnesses make people more tasty for youkai)
>spying and killing troublesome figures
She's basically the god of gensokyo, is it wrong for her to look after her children? If one of these figures somehow enlightened the village to their situation it could lead to something much worse, like all of them getting offed.
>starting wars
Very cute.

>>18572066
>Probably mostly suicidal sorts or scum(rapists, murderers, etc, since mental illnesses, make people tastier for youkai)
Which cannot confirm or denied, since she's telling other people that but has yet to show them.

>She's basically the god of gensokyo, is it wrong for her to look after her children? If one of these figures somehow enlightened the village to their situation it could lead to something much worse, like all of them getting offed.
The Youkai lost the evolutionary race a long time ago, Gensokyo is just their version of saying fuck you. Even now they refuse to adapt to an ever-changing environment outside their borders.

>>18572105
Have tasty outsider snacks been shown in canon at all? It may be that it cannot be confirm or denied that people are being abducted at all, perhaps it's all just a big fake lie and no-one's being harmed at all.
>lost the evolutionary race
Not really evolution, people just became unbelieving fucks, not only in youkai but all now-fantastical things. Thank god for Yukari and her fellow sages for preserving all these great wonderful things within the barrier, eh?

>>18572006
>And gives humans of outside world that change places with Sumireko when she isn't dreaming for feed wild youkais.

>>18572066
>Probably mostly suicidal sorts or scum(rapists, murderers, etc, since mental illnesses make people more tasty for youkai)
According to PMISS, which she edited, she steals suicidal and easily missed people. The former is very cruel if you know how suicidal people work. While the later is broad enough to include anything from criminals to war orphans.

>She's basically the god of gensokyo, is it wrong for her to look after her children? If one of these figures somehow enlightened the village to their situation it could lead to something much worse, like all of them getting offed.
It's fine if she wants to take care of her people, but it doesn't have to come at the expense of human lives. People that discover the truth should not have to be eliminated.

>Very cute.
Bitch, im adorable.

>>18573177
Not as adorable as Yukarin-sama.

>>18572153
>Have tasty outsider snacks been shown in canon at all?
It's mentioned in both Synopsium, PCB, and Perfect Memento. And in WaHh, Yukari pretty much admits she uses the outside world as a food source.

>Thank god for Yukari and her fellow sages for preserving all these great wonderful things within the barrier, eh?
I don't think the villagers, or the countless dead outsiders would agree.

>>18573340
Shown, not told. That guy said since it wasn't shown it can't be confirm or denied so using the same logic it can't be confirm or denied that outsiders are eaten at all.

>>18573384
It's never been shown, i'll admit. But i very much doubt it's a lie. If only because it's very hard to make such a lie convincing. Nor would there be any reason to lie about that.

>>18573177
>According to PMISS, which she edited, she steals suicidal and easily missed people. The former is very cruel if you know how suicidal people work. While the later is broad enough to include anything from criminals to war orphans.

It's only "cruel" because you're looking at it from the perspective of a human, not a centuries-old magical entity who has been explicitly said to follow different principles than those of humans.

From a human perspective we would also consider it cruel to kill someone when they break their leg, yet we consider it an act of mercy when we do it to a horse.

Yet, we also live in a world where a homeless man can literally die on a busy sidewalk in a large city, and have not a single one of his fellow humans stop and attempt to help him, even though all they would have to do is pull a small device out of their pocket and use it call for help. More than that, a couple of people who do appear to stop only do so to take out that very device from their pocket, use it to take a picture of a dying homeless man, and then continue on their merry way.

If this is how humans treat other humans, why should Yukari, who I cannot stress enough is NOT human, regard a relatively small number of humans who toddle off to die alone in some forest or under a bridge with any more sentiment? At least she's placing some value on them, even if it's only as resources that would otherwise go to waste. It's still more than what those unfortunate souls got from some douchebag taking a selfie with their corpse.

>>18570893
Irresponsible, but not impossible.

>>18571262
>(like he probably has, lets be honest)
FS has her pondering about her life span.

Maybe he won't have Akyuu killed, but I wouldn't say it won't become important when the time comes.

>>18573966
Just because somebody is suicidal, doesn't mean that person is actually going to kill themselves. Hard though it might be to believe, suicide is often a split second decision. And many people with suicidal thoughts don't even get that far.

To have your vulnerability, and it is a vulnerability, exploited by a malicious Youkai. To be abducted and killed, when a chance for a long and happy life still exists. That IS cruel.

Also, blue and orange morality doesn't excuse causing suffering and pain. Neither does some humans being assholes.

>>18574407
That suffering and pain is balanced out both by the joy and delight experienced by the hungry youkai.

>>18574407
That suffering and pain is balanced out by the joy and delight experienced by the hungry youkai.

>>18574455
That's not how that works. And you can't really compare the joy of having a good meal, to the joy of a happy long life.

>>18571697
He could make some shit up about souls not having to be constrained by time and after dying, she was reborn in someone who was born ten years after she was, so when the current akyuu dies the next one steps up and introduces herself as the new Akyuu.

>>18574466
That's not how that works. And you can't really compare the joy of having a good meal, to the joy of a happy long life.

I wish Kosuzu died in FS

>>18571697
>Have her become a CD character and meet Merryberry in the future.
That... actually fits the timeframe between Akyuu's reincarnations.

>>18574588
Why?

>>18574557
That youkai has a long life to live, if it can't have any good meals during, it wouldn't be very good, some residents can't live without delicious human treats period. Are you going to sacrifice Rem-rem for muh morals, good sir?

>>18574683
Yukari can just raid a bloodbank/morgue ocassionaly to provide for any Youkai that needs human flesh/blood.

>>18574600
Everything had been leading up to it and in the end ZUN just ended it all and said "then they all lived happily ever after". She didn't even need to die just something could've happened. The reason the fortune teller chapter even happened was to make the consequences of Kosuzus actions known to us to build tension. Instead it just ends and everything that had been foreshadowed for entirety of the mangas production was wasted. Kosuzus motivations are forgotten about and everyone is friends.
>inb4 "did you expect anything to happen in a 2hu mango :^)"
I wish ZUN hadn't done all the shit he'd done to make it look like something would happen. Shit even something like in ssib would've been cool but instead we get nothing. Every youkai can now use the incredibly dangerous scrolls that can cause incidents and do crazy magic shit but lmao we're all friends. I understand the artist was leaving but he could've gotten a new artist or at least have it not end so anticlimacticly. Terrible waste of a manga desu.
This and the addition of characters like Aunn shows to me that ZUN is trying to make the series appeal more to a younger audience. Maybe it's because a lot of younger people (Japanese highschool girls) are getting into it or maybe because he wants it to be more suitable for his children who knows.

>>18574719
Ridiculous, who wants to eat shitty dead flesh and unfresh, storage lesion-ed blood? The equivalent of telling Remi to eat stale bread and $10 wine for the rest of her life, if she were a human. You're a monster.

>>18574745
I have to agree with you. I too was hoping for something to happen but now I've learned to never have faith in anything ever again.

>>18574793
I mean for a time it was pretty funny in making Kosuzu as Anakin Skywalker and Reimu as Obiwan Kenobi

>>18574785
Then just steal fresh corpses/blood, and preserve it. Yukari can warp reality, i don't think that's beyond her power.

Also, if you need the flesh/blood of other sapient lifeforms to survive. Then you really aren't in a position to be picky.

>>18574837
Remilia is a high-class lady, are you telling her to live like a beggar just for the sake of some human's morals?
What makes living off sapient lifeforms so bad anyway, what makes the lives of less intelligent animals worth less? Do you think your intelligence somehow makes your life worth more than a pig or a squirrels?
Also you're against live humans being stolen but you're advocating corpse theft? Is desecration of the dead really ok?

>>18574593
Why would she reincarnate in the outside world rather than Gensokyo though?

>>18574745
Oh, you say that as if Touhou was FSN. It always appealed to all audiences.

>>18574745
>the addition of characters like Aunn shows to me that ZUN is trying to make the series appeal more to a younger audience.
How so?

>>18574880
>Remilia is a high-class lady, are you telling her to live like a beggar just for the sake of some human's morals?
There's nothing wrong with preserved meat or blood. I doubt Remilia would even care. When she was a kid, most meat was preserved.

>What makes living off sapient lifeforms so bad anyway, what makes the lives of less intelligent animals worth less? Do you think your intelligence somehow makes your life worth more than a pig or a squirrels?
Yes, i do. And if you honestly can't understand why murdering sapient/more intelligent lifeforms is bad. Then i think you're too much of a sociopath to understand, even if i tried to explain.

>Also you're against live humans being stolen but you're advocating corpse theft? Is desecration of the dead really ok?
If it's to prevent somebody from dying, then yes. I mean, if Youkai existed in real life. I would have no problem with them eating my corpse after i die.

>>18575080
I'm sure someone like Byakky would tell you that all lives are equal, please explain to me why you think more intelligent lifeforms are superior beings who deserve life more than less intelligent beings.
What's this about meat being preserved when she was a kid? I'm sure fresh, live humans are best, in any case.

>>18571697
He could, but since she's such a valuable character in terms of what he can still write with her she's almost certainly staying in Gensokyo.

>>18574253
I actually forgot about this, so I guess he hasnt forgotten about it after all. If anything that gets me thinking that he already may have something planned out.

>>18574745
I get why some people feel this way about FS but I personally disagree. When it comes too the manga I care less about the overarching plots and more about the world building they offer. Even if you dont like FS there is no denying that it offered alot in terms of lore and developing Gensokyo further. I would argue some points that you made but really just dont feel like typing it all out and its not like we'll change eachother's minds.
Heavily disagree on Aunn though. I dont see anything about her that is inherently more child friendly compared too other similar characters like Kyouko. If what youre suggesting is true then making more loli's in cute frilly dresses would be a much better way too accomplish it.

>I understand the artist was leaving
Also sauce on that?

The fact that some people here on /jp/ are actually advocating against being pray for Scarlet Sisters is nonsensical almost baffling.

>>18575263
>Also sauce on that?
There's no sauce. It's just bullshit that kept on spreading when faggots didn't like FS's ending but didn't want to blame it on ZUN, so they blamed it on Moe's other manga she was working on (thus, "FS's ending is shit because Moe wanted to leave to work on her other manga").

>>18574745
So did you not get what happened or what

Kosuzu was not in fault for her becoming a Youkai, for one. Unlike the Fortune Teller who did it for his own sake. It was Yukari's shenanigans that made her a Youkai.

Unlike the horse-killer it wasn't too late, as well. She could be turned back into a human.

You don't seem to remember that Kosuzu was just possessed, similar to how she was before. Remember where Kosuzu was possessed by the vengeful spirit that fucked over men with letters? Wow why does nobody complain about that, I wonder.

Read and understand better. It was never Kosuzu's fault, so why should she be punished for it? Unnecessary drama does not fit Touhou.

FS was meant to be read on the viewpoint of a ignorant human villager curious to know about the darker sides of Gensokyo.
The end is Reimu and co. declaring Kosuzu as an "equal", and now they'll try to not withhold important information in fear of her being in danger. Because withholding information from her is more dangerous than giving her the information.


Also how the fuck is the addition of Aunn "appealing to a younger audience"? Characters like her has existed in Touhou since the beginning of time.

>>18575412
Thats what I figured, but I like too ask in case somebody knows something I dont.

>>18575317
Like i said, they can have my blood when im dead. Im already a organ donor, so it's not like my body isn't going to be cut into pieces when i die.

How do I turn myself into an youkai, ghost, demon or god when going to Gensokyo? I don't want to be a stinky human in yet another life

>>18575546
>Youkai
Don't. Reimu will kill you

>Demon
Ask Shiki.

>Ghost
Make a list of unfinished businesses. Then just wander around Gensokyo until you get eaten.

>God
Just convince enough idiots to start worshiping you.

>>18575663
She won't kill you if you're a half youkai, like a were creature, or a youkai magician.

>>18574745
>inb4 "did you expect anything to happen in a 2hu mango :^)"
I wish /jp/ had never latched onto phrases like this because it creates people that think nothing happens in any of the manga whatsoever when theyve always been a huge source of information about the setting/people and detail the ongoing events in Gensokyo between the games which are usually not connected themselves.

You seem to be under the assumption that "thinking ANYTHING would happen at all" is equivalent to "thinking ZUN would write a manga and then kill its protagonist". Does that really fit the mold of Touhou at all? FT/Horseman are unnamed oneshots. In what Touhou manga would ZUN go through with killing its titular character, especially one like Kosuzu? It makes no sense. Incidents in Touhou have ALWAYS ended with everyone drinking tea and "lmao we're all friends". Forbidden Scrollery had a darker tone to it (when not making funny Ghost Stories jokes) and delved into the shadier aspects of Gensokyo but it's still Touhou. I don't think expecting a dark manga is bad, but expecting ZUN to actually fucking kill Kosuzu was always silly, especially considering how much of a lynchpin character she is for youkai influencing the village. The only character whos mortality we genuinely need to be concerned about is Akyuu, which has been something we knew about day 1 with her.

Just because Kosuzu didn't die doesn't mean nothing happened. It showed us more of the world of Gensokyo. We learned why and how people can become powerful or youkai, and why it is frowned upon to do things like FT. We learned how exactly Aya is allowed to constantly spread her news through the town, we learned why the youkai and the village need each other (the village cannot defend itself from natural disasters in any way without the youkai working to help them), and it provided a lot of information as to why incidents like Urban Legends can take hold in the villagers because they're so easily swayed. Kosuzu is now not just an ignorant liaison to the village for the youkai, she can lend her books back to them. Kosuzu's role in facilitating youkai influence and power has grown exponentially, which is exactly something that Yukari Yakumo wants.

Which is another thing you're not getting. The whole point of Yukari stepping in was to EXPLICITLY avoid the pitfalls of the other humans that we knew about. The "lead up" was entirely to establish the rules of Gensokyo with respect to humans, and wonder if there's a way out of it for Kosuzu. Yukari's plan was done in order to protect Kosuzu and find this way out; Yukari takes all the blame for Kosuzu's possession because she directly causes it, and the side effect was because she was possessed, Reimu was able to tell Mamizou to protect her (Mamizou says she would have just killed Kosuzu otherwise). Just because Yukari was able to find a way around the tension doesn't mean it was all for naught; it still existed, they just found a way to avoid having to eliminate Kosuzu. The only problem with FS ending was that it was rushed; it could have been expanded upon. But the series of events make sense. See >>18575436

Despite WaHH's glacial pace and the fact that half of its focus is on the Cameo Of The Week Character, shit "happens" in that manga, we got a better understanding of Sumireko's powers, we know that Kasen is playing a role in bringing her over the barrier, the Moriya ropeway is completed leading to a more tense relationship between the factions vying for faith, and we learned more about Okina's powers and intent. I mean for fucks sake even in the fairy manga that everyone agrees is almost entirely SoL, we've gotten information on HSiFS, what Clownpiece and Hecatia have been doing, more information on what fairy "lifeforce" power actually is, and Eternity Larva.

Shit always happens in Touhou Manga despite the plot generally being extremely slow. If you're not interested in Gensokyo as a setting then I can see why its not for you but its silly to imply theyre pointless.

>This and the addition of characters like Aunn shows to me that ZUN is trying to make the series appeal more to a younger audience.
This doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Why, because ZUN didn't outright fucking kill a character, he's working to try to appeal to a "younger audience"? Because Aunn is a "cute" character the fans have latched on to, like the numerous characters we already have (Kyouko)? Or she's At The Shrine (Suika, Sukuna, CP)? Or because she is one of about two characters in the entire narrative that isn't a dick to Reimu constantly? She's fairly important now to Reimu not getting her shit slapped by the Moriya Shrine, a back-and-forth that has happened a lot in WaHH, and one that heavily tilted to Sanae with the ropeway.

Touhou has always been something that people with a wide variety of ages can enjoy. Just because ZUN didn't delve into killing off a girl doesn't mean somehow the whole series is now being "marketed" to children.

>>18571160
>A rape victim that was asking for it was still raped
This has to be the most retarded thing I've read all day.

>>18575317
I would gladly give my life for Yukari or the Scarlet Sisters to eat me

>>18575546
You're still going to be a shitty human but there are two obvious options available to you. Either study hard for your entire life and become a magician, or study hard and become a hermit. Both of these paths are completely viable and will let you become fairly powerful and long-lived. You have a few options, maybe Marisa will teach you, or I'm sure either the Buddhists or Taoists will take you in.

Who knows, maybe even Kasen will help if you brave the road to go to the shrine, like Hungry-kun.

>>18572105
>Which cannot confirm or denied, since she's telling other people that but has yet to show them.
Doesn't DiPP show exactly that though ? Granted, it came out in 2002, an year before Yukari even was a thing, but given at how most things ZUN comes out with are concepts that he made up years prior to their release, and the uncanny resemblance of the story and Yukari's accounts of how she feeds Gensokyo (A bunch of criminals are spirited away, one by one they get murdered), I think one can pretty much count DiPP as a possible canon portrayal of that policy in action. This does leave the sole survivor of the story up in the air though. Maybe the woman was Yukari herself ? Maybe one of the thieves ? God knows.

But hey, I'm just rambling.

>>18574407
>>18574407
>Just because somebody is suicidal, doesn't mean that person is actually going to kill themselves. Hard though it might be to believe, suicide is often a split second decision. And many people with suicidal thoughts don't even get that far.

Of course not, but why do you assume she doesn't simply take the ones who do get that far? For all you know, she just roams around Aokigahara every now and then, stopping when she spots someone actually going all the way, and just scoops them up once they stop twitching.

>>18576032
Going by Perfect Memento, most outsiders that end up in Gensokyo act pretty normal. Not like people that just tried, or were about to, commit suicide. She also steals people that won't be missed. So, it's not like she any problem abducting people that aren't in the process of killing themselves.

>>18575663
>Don't. Reimu will kill you
Secondary.

>>18575663
Being an youkai and getting killed by Reimu is better than living as a shitty human in a shitty village

>>18575932
Aaahhh, those are not so bad...

>>18575850
Not him and I don't want to defend his point of view, but what you're talking about here is worldbuilding. Sure the events that facilitated it happened, but when people say nothing happens in a 2hu mango they refer to the fact that status-quo-changing (relative to Reimu and Marisa) events never happen. You could never read the manga and miss out on very little mandatory information.

Whether that's a good or a bad thing is up to the individual, but personally I think it's good ZUN's keeping the supplementary material supplementary. Oh, do you not want to read the manga of this game-based franchise? That's alright then, you don't have to.

>>18575139
>please explain to me why you think more intelligent lifeforms are superior beings who deserve life more than less intelligent beings.
I think it's a wasted effort. But fine, i'll try.

The thought processes of a human are infinitely more complex than that of a animal. That we can even have this argument is proof enough of that. This complexity gives humans, and any other intelligent lifeforms, a certain level of uniqueness that's worth preserving. Because to kill a person, even somebody that nobody likes, is to permanently destroy something truly special. Something that can NEVER be brought back.

That is not to say that animals can't be unique. Or that their existence often isn't worth preserving. There's a reason why cruelty towards animals is generally seen as a early sign of sociopathy. But i do think that killing them isn't nearly as big of a crime as killing a human.

>>18576222
Why? I'm pretty sure being a outsider living in the human village doesn't exempt you from any rules.

>>18576239
>Being an youkai and getting killed by Reimu is better than living as a shitty human in a shitty village
Then go to a different fictional world when you die. The Star Trek universe is pretty nice, why not just go there?

>>18576369
>Why?
Read the manga.

>>18576435
I have. And i'm still confused. Is there some detail i missed somewhere?

>>18576445
Yes. Read the manga and find it.

>>18566258
I'm not surprised. Apparently there's a thread on /tg/ with the same OP image that even has a few posts copypasted from here.

>>18576992
Issue is, who's doing it ? A /tg/ crossie who comes to /jp/, or a /jp/ crossie that goes to /tg/ ? I mean, clearly this thread was made first, but I know for a fact that this isn't really the first time this happened, far from it.
Wonder what one even gains from pulling this shit.

>>18576369
Star Trek is for losers. I like Gensokyo

>>18577533
Star Wars is better.

>>18577942
They both suck ass.

>>18575850
By things happening I meant the contained story in the manga not the world building it provides. >>18575263 is right and FS gave a huge amount of world building which was great. My problem is that ZUN continuously built up tension leading to that single event happening. There were reasons why Kosuzu dieing would be beneficial to Yukari. But I knew the second that the thought entered my mind it never would've happened. ZUN was gonna bullshit his way out of it. With Reimu seeing through everything, a fight or some kind of confrontation was set up to decide it but then Yukari just goes "lel whatever" and its over. Not to mention that Kosuzu just forgets the reason she read the scroll in the first place, the fact that she discovered the truth of the human village. Afterwards she's fine with it even though rationally she shouldn't be.
To reiterate, I wasn't happy that ZUN set up a story arc and then didn't deliver. The world building stuff was really great though.
>>18575436
Kosuzu was possessed because she deliberately tried to use the scroll to gain power after Yukari told her the truth about the human village and their role in Gensokyo. Kosuzu by her own volition took the scroll and tried to use it but ended up getting possessed. Afterwards? I guess everything Yukari told her doesn't matter and she's fine with everything now. Her whole motivation is just forgotten about completely.

The aunn thing and appealing to a younger audience is just a theory of mine. Aunn is just such a poor character and exists for no other reason than to be another cute dog for the fans. At least Kyoko had some interesting personality but aunn has nothing other than innocent genki dog girl.
I neve meant that because there wasn't a death ZUN was making it more for younger ages. I'm saying that instead of any actual conflict or anything it abruptly ends with them drinking sake and all the foreshadowing and tension build up is forgotten. It's just a personal theory that hopefully will be proven wrong.

>>18578046
Your mum's a poor character.

>>18578046
>At least Kyoko had some interesting personality but aunn has nothing other than innocent genki dog girl
Truly an enlightening opinion.

Kosuzu's mind was a necessary pawn in Yukarin's plan!

It doesn't matter whether Kosuzu died. The truth behind Gensokyo has already been revealed and that alone is enough fuel for discussion.

>>18578046
Except Kyouko's personality is innocent genki dog girl?

>>18577533
I agree. But still, if you just want a paradise to be your eternal playground. Star Trek isn't a bad choice.

>>18576919
I'm not going to reread a entire manga just to find one small detail i apparently overlooked the first time. Either tell me what i'm supposed to be looking for, or shut up.

>>18578454
She's got the whole yamabiko thing and the punk thing. What does aunn have? Oh it's another shitty dog. Nothing good about aunn.

>>18580084
She's one of the rare genuinely nice, friendly, and helpful Touhou characters. That alone makes her stand out.

>>18580318
Her entire character can be described as "nice" (/s4s/ psy-op?). The reason there aren't any characters as generic as that in Touhou is because ZUN puts effort into the other characters.

>>18580084
She understands shrine-specific business better than any of the established characters, works as an undercover agent in the Moriya Shrine, devises a plan to get Reimu visitors honestly and it works, and Kasen tells Reimu to listen to her if she wants to compete with Sanae at all. The fact that she unconditionally supports Reimu is unique. She has plenty going for her and even if she didn't have these things she would be no worse than Kyouko. Stop shitposting and being dishonest about her having no character (plenty of characters have NO additional story like Narumi, Aunn does) and being "marketed to children" just because you don't like the character for whatever reason.

>>18580363
I think that in a story like Touhou, nice and helpful is actually enough to stand out. There's a reason why she's one of the more popular characters in Hidden Star in Four Season.

And ut's not like most characters have that much personality. At least before they get a chance to shine in fighting games/print works.

>>18580363
I fail to see what's wrong with it besides the usual "I don't like this character and should it hate her too".

>>18579928
I'm not your teacher, it's not my job to educate you. Either read the manga properly or stop talking about things you don't understand.

>>18580571
No. But you can actually make a argument. Instead of just looking like somebody that has no fucking clue what he's talking about.

>>18558121
No, she just needed to get laid.

>>18576239
>shitty human in a shitty village
When is this meme going to die? The quality of life in the village isn't bad at all.

>>18584283
>The quality of life in the village isn't bad at all
If you don't mind living in 1984

>>18586595
*1894

>>18584283
It's fine, by the standards of a century ago. Even in comparison to most third world countries though, it's shit. And that's even before you start getting into the Youkai problems, and being constantly spied upon.

>>18586621
Big Sister Yukari says otherwise.

>>18586999
I think it's more like Brave New World than 1984. Or Shinsekai Yori, but without any of the cool godlike powers.

>>18586595
Tell me the difference between living in America and in the village

>>18588655
In before /pol/ type answer

>>18588655
the village is a lot more rural

>>18584283
I don't think you know what kind of hell is living in a "small, tightly knit community". It could be the most luxurious in the world, it still would suck.

>>18558121
this tshould have happened

>>18589379
Not allowed to exterminate cute girls, anon.

>>18589732
>>18589379
There's 0 chance Reimu would kill Kosuzu. Reimu only killed the fortune teller because he touched Kosuzu.

>>18590711
FT wasn't a cute girl.

>>18590885
Reimu was gonna kill Yukari because she messed with Kosuzu too. Reimu just really likes her 'Suze.

>>18590929
>Reimu was gonna kill Yukari
Biting the hand that feeds.

>>18590885
FT would reborn into a cute loli like Suzu, and Reimu never would killed him, or in this case, her.

>>18590944
It's more like Darth Vader betraying Emperor palpatine.

>>18591725
Kosuzu is Darth Vader

Reimu Is Obi-Wan Kenobi

Akyuu is Yoda

Yukari is Emperor Palpatine.

>>18588705
>small, tightly knit community
People have the luxury of not knowing everyone on town and the village isn't that small.

>>18584283
>When is this meme going to die?

>>18575663
>>18576222
>>18590711
Look at this picture, they even talk about how Reimu would have to exterminate Kosuzu for real (as in kill) should she become a Youkai.

>>18592213
>Reimu would have to exterminate Kosuzu
Who's gonna make her? Gaphag?

>>18578046
Yeah, she was manipulated by Yukari... what I said.
We never know whether or not Kosuzu actually believed in those. If anything, it's stupid to believe that because Reimu and Marisa were keeping secrets she would try to kill them.

Kosuzu was ALWAYS fascinated by Youkai. She sought them despite being afraid of them. Having the knowledge of "Oh no, Reimu and Marisa are friends with some Youkai!" won't change shit.
Heck, she forgets all about her time during her possession in the end.
It's more likely that the scroll heightened her emotions, as it's all about "getting wild until the sun comes up."

Also have you even read the latest chapters? Aunn was a double agent for the Hakurei shrine. She's a pretty darn smart, conniving dog. Heck, the way she observes everything is a bit fishy, even. I won't be surprised if Okina's using her in one way or another.

>>18592291
Gaphag literally told her not to do it.

>>18592291
>Who's gonna make her? Gaphag?
If she refused, yes, most likely. Yukari would probably have no problems getting rough with Reimu if she really had to. Youkai can turn on you like that, even if you thought they were your friends. Just look at how Mamizou suddenly threatened to kill Kosuzu violently when she didn't want to lend her youma books.

But I don't think Yukari would have to force her in the first place. Reimu is her loyal little soldier, after all.

>>18592291
>Who's gonna make her? Gaphag?
If she refused, yes, most likely. Yukari would probably have no problems getting rough with Reimu if she really had to. Youkai can turn on you like that, even if you thought they were your friends. Just look at how Mamizou suddenly threatened to kill Kosuzu violently when she didn't want to lend her youma books.

But I don't think Yukari would have to force her in the first place. Reimu is her loyal little soldier, after all.

However, Yukari made sure none of this came to be in the first place anyway: >>18592363.

>>18592401
Yukari couldn't defeat Reimu, for multiple reasons. There's a reason she bullshit her and ran away instead of fighting.

>>18592422
In a fair and square danmaku game, sure. But I wouldn't count on Yukari sticking to game rules if the situation goes south for real.

>>18592401
>Reimu is her loyal little soldier, after all
Reimu is anything than loyal. If anything she's actually getting more and more pissy at her.

>>18592443
Yukari would lose to Reimu in a real fight because Reimu has a more bullshit power on top of spiritual attacks and Yukari would destroy Gensokyo if she accidentally killed Reimu while Reimu can just kill her with impunity.

>>18592401
>he was beyond saving
And nothing of value was lost.

>>18574745
It wasn't leading up to her death, though it was leading up to either very bad consequences or the threat of death.

>>18592459
>Yukari would destroy Gensokyo if she accidentally killed Reimu
?

Maybe that's your fan theory or something but Gensokyo's shrine maidens die all the time, and regularly. Furthermore they can be replaced. They're "eternal" because when one goes away another comes. We don't know the details, but there's always a Hakurei Shrine Maiden, and in SSiB Aya bluntly stated (when she believed Reimu to be dead or at least gone permanently) that they'd need to replace her. Reimu's existence doesn't do anything particular for Gensokyo. Actually Yukari arguably DOES do something since there are suggestions of Gensokyo possibly being her dream or something.

>>18592445
If FS taught us anything, it's that Reimu takes her *actual* job very seriously: stopping youkai from attacking humans, and making sure that humans under no circumstances turn themselves into youkai. It is heavily implied that Yukari is involved in giving this task to the Hakurei shrine maidens, she even talks down to Reimu about it here: >>18559034

>>18592459
Yukari is described as insanely dangerous in canon, but since everyone fights fair and square these days with danmaku rules, we only ever get to see how good she is at that particular game. Reimu is incredibly good with danmaku too, but we don't know much about her actual, lethal skills, aside from when she ruthlessly disposed of some lesser youkai that committed felonies. There's simply no evidence for anything you're claiming, aside from her Hakurei magic Reimu is physically still a human, and she is hardly ever described as dangerous in canon.

Oh and just like >>18592505 pointed out, the Hakurei shrine maidens get replaced over the years. Hell, there's even the end of SSiB where Reimu went missing for some time, which lead to Aya saying that they'll probably have to find a new shrine maiden "again".

>>18592564
>she is hardly ever described as dangerous in canon
one thing I'd say to this is that "no, she is" or rather, she's implied to be

Almost every time a youkai or fairy realizes who she is, they're like "aw FUCK, it's the Shrine Maiden" because she's so quick to anger and thorough in her extermination. And of course, part of the reason the spell cards were created was to give youkai a chance to actually possibly beat her.

>>18592505
>Gensokyo possibly being her dream or something.
Now that's fanon.

>>18592596
No, idiot. I said that as a theory (you even quoted me saying "possibly" so I don't know how you misunderstood), it's not what I believe even so how is it fanon? All I know is that there are a number of "dreaming" things related to Yukari, Merry, and Gensokyo. I don't think of Gensokyo as a dream but it is some sort of weird theory that ZUN did put in there for whatever reason.

>>18592596
It ain't.

>>18592564
Sure. Now where's the loyalty? Being job provider doesn't mean that you're loyal. Yukari is always bullshiting her way around Reimu because she knows she would gohei up her arse which eventually almost happened at the end of the FS.

>>18592584
>part of the reason the spell cards were created was to give youkai a chance to actually possibly beat her.
*to actually beat her without worrying about consequences, since killing the shrine maiden would leave the barrier with no caretaker (not that she can't be replaced). Read her PMiSS article.
>>18592596
It was actually mentioned in PMiSS, although I think it was referring to the outside world, not Gensokyo.

>>18592767
>>*to actually beat her without worrying about consequences, since killing the shrine maiden would leave the barrier with no caretaker (not that she can't be replaced).
it's both

>>18592584
I think we have seen the fairies being scared of her in the fairies' manga, and all the youkai she evicted from her shrine at one point in WaHH. But other than that, I can't really recall youkai ever being that scared of her, certainly not in the games.

Before the spell card rules, there were the non-aggression rules which completely forbid any kind of fighting. The situation was not considered sustainable for the well-being of the youkai, so the spell card rules were created to allow for fair fights between anyone and everyone. Pay attention to this part in PMiSS in particular:

"At the same time, it became possible for youkai to freely defeat the shrine maiden without worrying about the consequences."

This doesn't mean that the youkai were unable to defeat Reimu (although it certainly applies to the weaker ones), but that accidentally killing the valuable Hakurei shrine maiden is a big problem.

>>18592640
Loyalty towards the basic, most important tasks her employer has bestowed her with. But aside from that, Reimu and Yukari have a sitcom relationship.

>>18592804
>I can't really recall youkai ever being that scared of her, certainly not in the games.
Definitely remember it in DDC at least.

I think you're kinda overestimating Reimu. She's basically doing those things because it's her job and nothing else.
>Reimu and Yukari have a sitcom relationship
It that case that sitcom was only funny back in IN. Anything after that sucks ass.

>>18592804
I think you're kinda overestimating Reimu. She's basically doing those things because it's her job and nothing else.
>Reimu and Yukari have a sitcom relationship
It that case that sitcom was only funny back in IN. Anything after that sucks ass.

>>18592804
>Before the spell card rules, there were the non-aggression rules which completely forbid any kind of fighting
That's not true, or at least I don't remember anything about that nor can I find anything like that. As I recalled (and checked to confirm) fighting was absolutely allowed. In fact, it was so allowed that people were worried so the rules were created to settle things down. Reminder that the true prompt for the rules was Remilia arriving in Gensokyo and rampaging, for example. Further if you want to take PC-98 into account obviously fighting was allowed. Finally, the rules themselves open with the statement that fighting has gotten so bad they're worried Gensokyo will be destroyed.

>>18592910
I double-checked PMiSS since I wrote that from memory, and I partially retract what I wrote. Fighting between youkai was indeed a big problem threatening to destroy Gensokyo, and The Vampire Incident brought it to its logical conclusion when Remilia amassed a large number of youkai subordinates, and started rioting. However, youkai were indeed not allowed to attack any of the humans of Gensokyo, the Hakurei shrine maiden included, a status quo which contributed to these riots in the first place. Heavy restrictions were imposed after The Vampire Incident, which were the closest to any kind of non-aggression rules for a very short time, before the spell card rules were proposed and amended.

>>18592989
I still think you're misremembering. Maybe you're thinking of the contract where Remilia wasn't allowed to attack humans, but even still she was given humans as food to stop her (and I don't think there was anything specifying whether they had to be outsiders or villagers), and I don't think the contract applied to anyone other than her (and probably Flandre)

>>18593011
Okay so I did a thorough check now of all the relevant PMiSS articles, and you are indeed correct, even this part: "It is said these are humans from the outside world OR those whose deaths are of no consequence (suicidal, etc.)". Although the discussions which lead up to the spell card rules started because some youkai found the vampire contract distasteful, it is still in effect to this day.

It is never explicitly stated that the rampage actually entailed attacking native humans, but it is heavily implied: "The details of this contract are that the youkai will offer them humans from which to feed; in return, the vampires will not attack humans living in Gensokyo."

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Reimu_Hakurei
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Draft_of_Spell_Card_Rules
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Vampire
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Remilia_Scarlet

The rest is pretty much what I wrote, the youkai were frustrated and therefore willingly rioted with Remilia. The spell card rules killed two birds with one stone, allowing the youkai to regain their power by fighting humans on equal terms, while settling scores among themselves (such as The Vampire Incident) without the situation becoming dangerous for all of Gensokyo.

I'm fairly certain ZUN said somewhere that Reimu when serious can beat pretty much everyone in Gensokyo due to the OPness of Fantasy Nature.

Reimu is definitely one of the most powerful beings in Gensokyo.

>>18593425
I'm not trying to start a powerlevel debate here, but I'm also pretty certain ZUN has said conflicting things regarding how powerful a character's abilities really are. Off the top of my head Yukari and her ability to manipulate borders can simply cancel out whatever Reimu throws at her. At the least it would end in a stalemate.

>>18593425
>Reimu is definitely one of the most powerful beings in Gensokyo.
You underestimate her power.

Fucking low lifes

>>18593425
You're thinking of the IN spell card comment, but it doesn't say that she could defeat everyone, but that nobody would be able to win, because she becomes invincible. Being impossible to touch doesn't make you powerful. Taking such a statement as though it's immovable, unchangeable fact is also dangerous; you should just take the technique as-is.

>>18593355
>It is said these are humans from the outside world OR those whose deaths are of no consequence
The particle used there is で which suggests they're from the outside "and" whose deaths aren't of consequence.

>>18593447
>can simply cancel out whatever Reimu throws at her
Her powers allow her to ignore a youkai's weakness to spiritual attacks? Reimu is a shrine maiden, one who can exterminate and seal away youkai. Yukari would have to stop being a youkai to shrug off anything Reimu did, and if she could do that, why does Gensokyo even exist? It'd be like Remilia using fate to make it so that she wasn't fated to burn away in sunlight or something.

>>18593449
the fucking senile tanuki hag beat her

>>18593585
Nothing you said made any sense whatsoever.

>>18558121
No, she's wrong.

>>18593747
Youkai are weak to spiritual attacks. That's why Reimu can kill them by smacking them with her gohei. Not through some act of power, but because it is a religious object and she is a religious person.
Vampires are weak to sunlight. It's not because the sun is stronger than them but because it is a weakness of vampires.
A youkai fighting someone with the power to defeat youkai is like a vampire fighting the sun. Remi can go out with an umbrella, but that's not defeating the sun, that just avoiding being killed by it. Same with the mist. There's nothing she could do that would make her able to walk out in sunlight naked with impunity.

Yukari is a youkai, not an all powerful transcendent being. No matter how strong she is, she's a youkai and will be weak to what youkai are weak to. That is, Reimu's talismans, needles, and gohei. Even her power is just the power of a youkai. There's no reason to believe Yukari is so exceptional that she couldn't be killed by the same means as other youkai, nor sealed away.

>>18593425
It's hard to say who would win in a straight up win. But don't forget that Yukari is very clever. I would not put it past her to have some kind of kill switch, in case the Hakurei shrine maiden goes rogue.

>>18592804
>>18592640
>>18592445
>>18592401

It's hard to say how loyal Reimu is towards Yukari. I think it's more likely that she just doesn't want to lose her position as one of the most privileged and powerful people in Gensokyo. And because of that, is willing to do whatever terrible shit Yukari tells her to do.

>>18594918
>It's hard to say how loyal Reimu is towards Yukari
I don't see a reason why would it be hard. Reimu is probably the last person that has some ulterior motives.
>most privileged
You mean being poor ass miko that constantly have to deal with other people and youkai bullshit? Yeah man, that sounds privileged as hell.

>>18595720
>Reimu is probably the last person that has some ulterior motives.
Yes. But we don't know anything about exactly she got the job. Whatever it was just a family thing, or if Yukari personally handpicked her somehow. That can have a pretty big effect on how loyal she actually is towards Yukari.

>You mean being poor ass miko that constantly have to deal with other people and youkai bullshit? Yeah man, that sounds privileged as hell.
Reimu is only poor because she's a fucking idiot. Even Akyuu pointed out the Hakurei Shrine Maiden's pretty much have all of Gensokyo under their thumb. At the very least, she's WAY more privileged than your average youkai cattle villagers.

>>18595744
>Whatever it was just a family thing, or if Yukari personally handpicked her somehow
>Reimu is only poor because she's a fucking idiot
Read the print works.
>Even Akyuu pointed out the Hakurei Shrine Maiden's pretty much have all of Gensokyo under their thumb
As being administrator of Hakurei barrier. That's responsibility not a privilege you baka.

>>18595849
>Read the print works.
I have. And it only made me more confused. Some of the print works, and the plot of Story of Eastern Wonderland, seems to imply it's a bloodline related job. While others seem to imply she's a orphan.

Reimu being poor is a bit more complicated than just "she's a fucking idiot", i'll admit. But i do still think it's her fault.

>As being administrator of Hakurei barrier. That's responsibility not a privilege
It is a fucking privilege. She's ridiculously powerful. And most Youkai, even with the spell card rules, can do jack shit to oppose her. If you don't understand how you can use that for your own benefit, then you're somewhat lacking in imagination.

>>18595918
>seems to imply
There's no implication. That was pretty much stated.
>is a bit more complicated
It's actually pretty straightforward matter.
>She's ridiculously powerful. And most Youkai, even with the spell card rules
And Gensokyo is full ridiculously powerful individuals that already defeated her numerous times.
>If you don't understand how you can use that for your own benefit
Can is the keyword here. First, Reimu doesn't do that. I don't think she's even capable of that. Second, you really think government of Gensokyo would have rogue Shrine Maiden just like that? I doubt that.

>>18596004
>There's no implication. That was pretty much stated.
Yeah, okay. It's stated she's a orphan right now. But it's unclear if that was always the case.

>And Gensokyo is full ridiculously powerful individuals that already defeated her numerous times.
They defeated her using the spell card rules. If those weren't around, fighting her wouldn't even be a option.

>Can is the keyword here. First, Reimu doesn't do that. I don't think she's even capable of that
Yes. Because, like i said, she's a fucking idiot.

>Second, you really think government of Gensokyo would have rogue Shrine Maiden just like that? I doubt that.

She doesn't have to go rogue to use her power for her own benefit. She can exploit her position, while still working within the system.

>>18596033
>It's stated she's a orphan right now
Those things are not mutually exclusive you know.
>If those weren't around, fighting her wouldn't even be a option
That's debatable because powerlevels. The only thing that we know is that Gensokyo would probably be destroyed.
>she's a fucking idiot
>she can exploit her position
Alright. First, Reimu is hardly an idiot. She's just lazy and want to take it easy. Second, again can is the keyword here. She doesn't do that so stop with the assumptions. And the last thing that bothers me is that you call someone who doesn't exploit her position an idiot and yet you're whining about false privilage here. I can see you're already prime material for Yama.

Reimu is an idiot only in the business department.

She's top fucking genius in the youkai hunting depertment.

Saying Reimu only wants to remain powerful is an extremely gross misrepresentation of her character.

>>18596154
> The only thing that we know is that Gensokyo would probably be destroyed.
That's a pretty good reason why fighting her wouldn't be a option.

>Alright. First, Reimu is hardly an idiot. She's just lazy and want to take it easy.
I disagree. Even outside of her not taking advantage of the opportunities her job provides. I don't think she's very smart.

>She doesn't do that so stop with the assumptions.
It isn't a assumption though. I find it rather hard to interpret "have Gensokyo under their thumb" as anything else.

>And the last thing that bothers me is that you call someone who doesn't exploit her position an idiot and yet you're whining about false privilage here.
I think you might be missing my point. Which is that people pretending Reimu's job is some terrible to burden to bear are talking nonsense. In comparison to your average human villager, Reimu's has a way better life.

>>18596230
Why? She's a selfish asshole. I don't know why else she would bother doing her job as the Hakurei Shrine Maiden, expect that it benefits her.

>>18596279
>That's a pretty good reason why fighting her wouldn't be a option.
And the same thing applies on her.
>I disagree. Even outside of her not taking advantage of the opportunities her job provides. I don't think she's very smart.
Man, you can disagree what you want that's her literaly description provided from the God. And nobody claims she's super smart.
>I find it rather hard to interpret "have Gensokyo under their thumb" as anything else.
See above.
>In comparison to your average human villager, Reimu's has a way better life
Really now? Your average villager lives a ordinary rural life with glimpses from the outside world. They have festivals, are protected by gods and youkai, hell they even had seal circus for some time. Meanwhile Reimu is poor, lives alone, is constantly bothered by fairies and youkai, have to deal with Hakurei barrier and her best friend is a local weirdo thief. Privilege much?
>>18596303
> She's a selfish asshole
Ahh, I finally see the light. You're just bootyblasted about Reimu for some reason.
> I don't know why else she would bother doing her job as the Hakurei Shrine Maiden
See above. Read the print works.

>>18596415
>And the same thing applies on her.
What do you even mean?

>Man, you can disagree what you want that's her literaly description provided from the God
Look, if ZUN wanted Reimu to not be stupid. Then he should have written her in a way where she doesn't come across as a idiot.

>See above.
If it was just responsibility. Then it would have been phrased differently. And it would have been placed in a different context.

>Really now?
Pre industrial rural life isn't that fun. Especially if you're also living in constant fear of Youkai. While i don't your average villager is miserable. I think most of them are merely content with their life, and that's only because they don't know their basically cattle.

>You're just bootyblasted about Reimu for some reason.
I just don't think she's either likeable or sympathetic. At best, she comes across as just a unpleasant asshole. And at worst, a borderline sociopath.

>See above. Read the print works.
Look, if you want to argue i misinterpreted Reimu's character. Don't just point at "the print work" without any other information. I've read them already, and if you think i missed something. Just tell me.

Once again, let's look at what we actually know, to avoid powerlevel discussions based on conjecture and character preference.

If the youkai really wanted to end Reimu, it would be surprisingly easy: they could simply just sneak up on her and kill her in her sleep. Aya sneaked up to the shrine while Reimu was asleep in daytime, and took this picture for Bunbunharu Shinpou in AFiEU. Back in the day when youkai were not as friendly with the Hakurei shrine maiden, and the Hakurei God still had its full powers, youkai did not even dare getting close to the shrine, thus protecting the shrine maiden from getting attacked in her sleep. We saw in OSP how Kasen got her magic, prosthetic arm evaporated when she accidentally touched the shrine's goshintai (the Yin-Yang orb), commenting how "that was a close one". Imagine the entire shrine area blessed with the same kind of power.

The article itself on Reimu (also Yukari and a few others) in AFiEU was finally translated to English only 2 days ago, but it IS a spoof of a right-wing tabloid after all, so the contents should be taken with a healthy grain of salt. If we choose to interpret them as heavy exaggerations of actual opinions and feelings, however, as is often the case with tabloids, some interesting stuff can be learned. If it isn't all made up by Aya herself, it provides a rare insight into the gossip and worries of the Youkai of Gensokyo.

Reimu's article in AFiEU gives more credence to what we already knew: the youkai of Gensokyo are heavily reliant on her to retain the balance of their "secluded paradise". So not only are they not allowed to actually hurt her, they most certainly don't want to. Some of the Youkai even really like Reimu, Aya mockingly refers to the regulars at the shrine as the "Shrine Banquet Alliance".

But the article also mentions indignation over how almost nobody is able to oppose Reimu, once she takes active action. Take a look at these parts:

"It's true that there are rumors that, whenever an incident occurs, she is surrounded by an indescribable intimidating aura, but the people who testify as such are few and far between."

"For the substantial amount of us youkai that carry on the farce of being unable to oppose the Hakurei shrine maiden, it seems that it won't be long before our meaning of existence becomes questioned."

I do not think this should be taken as Reimu being all-powerful, however. For all we know, it could just mean that Reimu by far is the most skilled danmaku player around, and that nobody stands a chance in a fair fight. And since everybody is so reliant on (and even like) Reimu, nobody is going to break the rules and oppose her for real. There are many parallells to how things work in real-world political/social systems here, and we know that ZUN takes great interest in these things (I mean, he even used the title "Alternative Facts in Eastern Utopia").

Reimu is just one of many shrine maidens - not the first, and not the last. She'll die a human death at some point, and will be replaced.

Same with if she dies unexpectedly, as we saw in SSiB - "We'll have to select a new shrine maiden soon" when Reimu didn't come back from the moon when everyone else did.

>>18598821
>Reimu is just one of many shrine maidens - not the first, and not the last. She'll die a human death at some point, and will be replaced.
Have you never seen barrier maiden families in anime and manga, who pass down the protection of some thing through the females of the line until the present plotline where the current maiden's purity/life is threatened?

Whether it's a family ability or something given to her, it's readily apparent Reimu has ability to manipulate spatial boundaries and spaces, so obviously she has something to do with the actual barrier.

>>18598779
Reimu isn't all powerful. Nor is she the queen bitch of Gensokyo. But, especially by human standards, she has a very comfortable position.

>>18599061

Reimu's death is a "We'll have to select a new shrine maiden soon" situation in present day, not a panic situation.

>>18599171
But Reimu doesn't have sisters, aunts, or cousins, she doesn't even have a daughter.

For all intent and purpose, she's a genetic dead-end

>>18600740
It's possible, and i'll admit this is just pure speculation, there might be one or two girls with enough Hakurei blood running through their veins living in the human village.

>>18599171
How is it not a panic situation? What if they don't find a shrine maiden? They just shrug and go oh well?

>>18601359
I think it depends mostly on how hard it is to find a new Shrine Maiden. If anybody can do it, then Yukari can probably just convince some outsider or village girl to do it. But if only people from the Hakurei bloodline can do it, finding a replacement for Reimu might be difficult.

>>18600740
I'm going to make Reimu a mom!

>>18567769
The few humans who realize that the outside world is better go insane with that revelation. The Fortune Teller was one of those individuals who realize that the Humans in the Village are in fact Cattle when compare to the humans outside.

>>18604885
Yes. If they don't keep their mouth shut, Yukari silences them. And if they do keep their mouth shut, they spend the rest of their life miserable and depressed with the hollow facade that is their life. Assuming they just don't off themselves eventually.

>>18606685
Or they could just study magic, eventually move somewhere else, become a youkai magician, fortune teller tried to make it easy via offing himself, big mistake for him.

>>18606868
That is a possibility. Although, it's hard to say how hard or easy learning magic is. According to Perfect Memento, it's pretty easy. But that lore is also very old. And your average human villager was a lot more capable back then.

Still, Marisa did it. Seemingly without even having a real teacher. Unless Mima is still canon. And it's preferable to the alternatives.

>>18596004
>There's no implication. That was pretty much stated.
What? No it wasn't, ever.

Rather, nobody's ever brought it up in canon ever ever beyond "there are Hakurei Shrine maidens". Aya's talk IMPLIES that they can be replaced, but who the fuck knows, and who knows whether or not it's related by blood or not? Nobody!

We know about Marisa's family but not Reimu. For all we know she has living parents she just doesn't bother with.

>>18604854
You'll die trying.

>>18607211

"Select a new shrine maiden" means the choice isn't obvious, so there's probably not an eldest blood heir.

>>18606685

Yukari did nothing wrong, and Gensokyo is still better than living in the third world on the outside. Only middle/upper class first worlders have it better than Gensokyo humans.

More than 200,000 died to Malaria last year alone, Gensokyo doesn't have those problems.

>>18601359

At least 2/3 sages are confirmed able to permanently mind control people, it's not really an issue if they don't find a willing shrine maiden.

>>18604885
Yep...so free.

>>18613332
Okina and? Can't be Yukari, because Ran disobeys her.

>>18615518
It's not disobedience it's just bugs in her programming.

It's a breath of fresh air to see more Touhou threads with something close to actual discussion instead of just a slew of imagedumps.

>>18613332
wait, when was this stated that these 2 sages can mindcontrol?

>>18615886
Guy complaining about actual discussion doesn't even know something like this. Probably the most ironic post on this board right now.

>>18615886
Yukari can't mind control, just brainwash.

>>18617545
wrong

>>18620146
Don you consider Ran to be mind controlling Chen? How can a mind controlled control another mind?

>>18613332
>>18615518
>>18615824
Ran is just a shikigami shoved into a kitsune iirc. No real mind control, just I Can't Control My Mouth and I Must Scream

>>18620246
That's not exactly how shikigami work. Ran Yakumo is more of a job title than a separate entity. Or rather, an acting role where staying in-character makes you as strong and smart as your character is supposed to be. Shiki means "script".

In theory the fox playing Ran Yakumo can stop playing her whenever she wants, but she maintains it both because she swore an oath of service to Yukari and because she doesn't want to lose the perks that come with it.

>>18620461
Also, the shikigami known as Chen is an obedient servant. But the cat chosen to be Chen is an independent sort, so she ignores how she's supposed to act unless she badly needs the power boost. This is explicitly a thing she can do.

Are shikigami sentient? I hear a lot of people comparing them to a computer as well as the other way around.

>>18620737
They are scripts that you imbue into things, with an identity of sorts attached. They're generally not *supposed* to be sentient, but if you make them poorly it's possible for them to malfunction and start mutating into youkai in their own right.

Minor, disposable shikigami are imbued into paper, because it's "blank" and thus the instructions have full control. In most depictions these kinds of shikigami are limited to simple or repetitive actions unless the person who made them was very skilled or powerful. Mamizou uses these kinds of shikigami, but Yukari prefers using animals like crows.

>>18620737
Ran and Chen are depicted as being so, and that's all that's important.

>>18620854

>>18567934
Can humans make babies with fairies?

>>18623536
What's sad about that exactly?

>>18613323
>Yukari did nothing wrong
She eats children, anon. And she's responsible thousands of missing people cases. Most of which probably involved innocent people.

>Gensokyo is still better than living in the third world on the outside.
I'll admit human villagers have it better than people living in Somalia or Syria. But that still doesn't make their situation "good".

>Only middle/upper class first worlders have it better than Gensokyo humans.
No. Both middle/upper third worlders and poor first worlders also have it better. I know that because i've met the former, and am the latter. Don't let romanticist media fool you. Besides for the ruling class, pre industrial life really wasn't that great.

>>18623591
No. Just another reason why they're natures Onaholes.

>>18623591
No. You jack off into them and they convert your lifeforce into whatever is necessary to sustain the nature they're born from.

>>18613323
As a Russian, I agree. Gensokyo > this hellhole

>>18625457
Are you sure? Do you really think the relative peace and, as long as you don't go out at night, safety of Gensokyo is worth having no technology?

>>18625235
You're really dense anon, you cling to the same arguments over and over.

>>18625519
>you cling to the same arguments over and over.
What? That Yukari is a bad person because she eats children? Í'm sorry, but until now "child murderer" has generally been a pretty strong argument when deciding if somebody is a good person.

Or do you perhaps mean my claim that pre industrial life is shit? Something that any real historian would tell you is true.

>>18625562
>person
You still keep forcing that word. Stop it. Youkai aren't people.

>>18625589
Alright, fine. Then she's a bad monster because she murders children

>>18625519
I remember a similarly shitty thread from a year ago where an anon said that some people who discover the few dark aspects of Touhou tend to greatly overemphasize them as if it's the "hidden truth" of the series. Dear Lord, was he right.

>>18625654
I would never claim the dark aspects of Touhou are heavily emphasized in canon. If anything, the fact that they aren't makes them even more disturbing.

But they are absolutely there. And if you act like every character is a innocent angel. That most outsiders leave Gensokyo alive. And that the human villagers are perfectly happy and content with their situation. Then i think you might be doing canon Touhou lore somewhat of a disservice.

>>18625618
Yes and? You keep forgetting that Yukari, and not only her in Gensokyo, is in term of intelligence and abilities highly above humans. Compared to her we are inferior creatures and really has no reason to see us different than as a tasty snacks. If anything she's actually pretty benevolent.

>>18625562
You keep repeating that pre industrial life is bad yet you keep forgetting that they live in a magical paradise and have services that pre industrial villages didn't have. They have proper healthcare and medicines, they have all year food supplies, they don't even have hazards like storms that could wipe them off. So no, they aren't as bad as a generic pre industrial village.

You also keep clinging to the "I met third worlders that I think live better than the village" (Not here, but you know where) which at the end of the day won't add anything other than a perspective that doesn't really mix with Gensokyo. We've seen through the print works how they live a decent life and carry on happily despite being trapped between youkais and we've seen all the nice luxuries they can have yet we have barely seen them suffering at all, the worst we've had was FT and Horse Guy and both were youkai related issues.

I won't deny against Yukari's action because I know they are wrong, but talking about Yukari at this point is beating a dead horse.

>>18625707
>And that the human villagers are perfectly happy and content with their situation.
Apart from the fortune teller, who else is unsatisfied with living in the village?

>>18625654
>>18625707
Canon Touhou lore on how dark the setting is amounts to "If you're used to seeing a person do good things, and then you hear about them doing bad things, it doesn't mean the good things were fake (and vice versa). People can be both good and bad, and often their good and bad parts aren't separable but two equally valid perspectives on the same thing."

But there's a tendency for people to view everything as a puzzle with a single answer, meaning that once they've found a solution that fits, they consider their thinking done and refuse to consider anything else.

Kosuzu is essentially a parody of these kinds of fans. She's attracted to forbidden knowledge and dark themes, so once she spots something dark in the setting she falls in the love with the idea that she's a genius who's "learned the secret" and it's secretly a 100% grimderp hellhole where all her friends want to kill her.

>>18625765
>Yes and?

There is no "and". Yukari Yakumo is a bad monster, and she deserves to die. I don't have darwinstic view of the world, so right of the strongest doesn't excuse her behavior.

>>18625806
>So no, they aren't as bad as a generic pre industrial village.
Generic pre industrial villages also had a lot of things that humans in Gensokyo don't have. And even if it isn't "as bad" that still doesn't make it "good". Which is what the majority of people in the first world have it nowadays.

>which at the end of the day won't add anything other than a perspective that doesn't really mix with Gensokyo.
It's not about perspective. It's about people thinking that everybody in third world countries all have terrible awful lives. That's simply not true in most countries.

>We've seen through the print works how they live a decent life and carry on happily despite being trapped
It's not like they have much of a option. I've said this before as well, but being content and being happy are two different things. I don't think human villagers are miserable. But i doubt they're very happy either.

Meanwhile, they live in constant fear of Youkai. Are being spied upon by malicious border demons. And it's quite likely anybody that might cause trouble is removed. It's just not a very good life.

>but talking about Yukari at this point is beating a dead horse.
I would agree with that. If people stopped defending her actions for the stupidest of reasons.

>>18628356
You deserve death more than our lord and savior Yukari.

>>18626199
>"If you're used to seeing a person do good things, and then you hear about them doing bad things, it doesn't mean the good things were fake (and vice versa). People can be both good and bad, and often their good and bad parts aren't separable but two equally valid perspectives on the same thing."

Yeah. But i don't see the majority of characters doing ANYTHING good in Touhou. Gensokyo's very nature is a parasite feeding off the outside world. The only reason why that isn't more prominent is because all of the important characters are privileged people benefiting from the terrible status quo.

>But there's a tendency for people to view everything as a puzzle with a single answer, meaning that once they've found a solution that fits, they consider their thinking done and refuse to consider anything else.

That might be true for some. But certainly not for me. I don't view any setting as a puzzle in need of a solution. And certainly not Gensokyo, which is ambiguous enough to allow for a wide variety of interpretations.

>>18626199
Marisa was probably pretty unsatisfied. That's why she left.

The people in the Secret History Association are also pretty unsatisfied, one can assume.

The fact that the Youkai strongly fear the rise of a human leader. Also strongly indicates that some general level of dissatisfaction. You aren't worried about a rebel leader appearing if the people don't want to rebel.

>>18628370
Yeah. Because i'm totally a mass murdering sociopath.

>>18626199
>Kosuzu is essentially a parody of these kinds of fans. She's attracted to forbidden knowledge and dark themes, so once she spots something dark in the setting she falls in the love with the idea that she's a genius who's "learned the secret" and it's secretly a 100% grimderp hellhole where all her friends want to kill her.

>>18626199
>Kosuzu is essentially a parody of these kinds of fans. She's attracted to forbidden knowledge and dark themes, so once she spots something dark in the setting she falls in the love with the idea that she's a genius who's "learned the secret" and it's secretly a 100% grimderp hellhole where all her friends want to kill her.
That's a pretty unique interpretation of her.

>>18628396
You've got a foul mouth, talking bad about our fair lady. Let's see you save not only lives, but entire species from extinction, Anonymous. Yukari is a hero, a god. She watches over us all, me, you, and all the other shitposters. She's glorious.

>>18630139
>Let's see you save not only lives, but entire species from extinction, Anonymous.

She did little more than delay the inevitable. And at the cost of thousands of lives. She isn't a hero, she's a well intentioned extremist villain at best. And even that is a pretty favorable read of her character.

>>18628356
>Generic pre industrial villages also had a lot of things that humans in Gensokyo don't have
Such as...?
>And even if it isn't "as bad" that still doesn't make it "good".
They don't have freedom, but they have literally everything else.
>It's about people thinking that everybody in third world countries all have terrible awful lives.
>That's simply not true in most countries.
Of course, everywhere there will be happy and sad people but judging from a quality of life point of view, the villagers in Gensokyo live better than half of my country. Though I find it funny that you defend so hard places with bad life quality but have a hate boner against the village despite being shown as a nice place to live. Kinda contrarian I'd say.
>But i doubt they're very happy either
We've seen them through the print works leading happy lifes, yet you WANT to believe it's the other way around.
>they live in constant fear of Youkai.
They have been living in constant fear of the youkai for centuries.
>Are being spied upon by malicious border demons
You are being spied upon by malicious mutt demons yet I don't see you complain about that
>And it's quite likely anybody that might cause trouble is removed
Like in real life?
>>18628396
>Marisa was probably pretty unsatisfied. That's why she left.
She left due to daddy issues and because she wanted to learn magic not because of the evil youkai overlords.
>The people in the Secret History Association are also pretty unsatisfied, one can assume.
They are wary of the youkai wanting to have more inside influence but it's never said that they hate living there.
>The fact that the Youkai strongly fear the rise of a human leader. Also strongly indicates that some general level of dissatisfaction
What? That's stupid. It's like a goverment fearing ISIS from leaking into the country not because they are vile opressors and ISIS are liberators, but because they know a terrorist cell can lead to destabilization and a civil war. >You aren't worried about a rebel leader appearing if the people don't want to rebel.
Do you really think the germans weren't influenced by the Nazi party and instead they all always wanted to genocide jews? Leaders that can influence people are dangerous because not always are they right and they can convince others to join their cause either way.

>>18574745
>I understand the artist was leaving but he could've gotten a new artist or at least have it not end so anticlimacticly. Terrible waste of a manga desu.
I have to agree, I feel sorry for the artist. He made some kick ass and beautiful art only to have ZUN make a shit ending. It would have been a better ending with Reimu waking up and have every chapter just be a dream.

>>18615518

Disobedience on a "computer you programmed doesn't do what you want" level only

>>18631631

Inevitable? You fell for Yukari's trick. Fantasy and reality being together is the default state of existence, and this was normal until the fantasy-reality barrier (different from the Hakurei barrier).

You can wank science all you want but you'll look pretty silly getting clonk'd on the head by a flying girl who pulls telephone poles out of the ground in plain sight in the outside world, or the youkai infesting that space station TORIFUNE in the future.

>>18558121
How would an outsider become powerful enough to defeat Youkai?

>>18631832
>Such as...?
Some social mobility. Trade with other human towns/cities. Being able to actually leave and build a different life elsewhere. Not living in constant fear of Youkai.

>They don't have freedom, but they have literally everything else.
...No? They don't have any modern technology, for starters. They also don't have the prosperity and safety of most first world countries. Or the chances the modern world provides, even in a third world country.

>Though I find it funny that you defend so hard places with bad life quality but have a hate boner against the village despite being shown as a nice place to live. Kinda contrarian I'd say.
My point is that the human village isn't as nice as people think. While most of the world isn't as bad as people think it is. How is that contrarian? Also, where the hell do you live for the situation to be that bad? Russia?

>We've seen them through the print works leading happy lifes
No, we haven't. Just because they don't all mope around looking depressed, doesn't mean their happy and satisfied.

>They have been living in constant fear of the youkai for centuries.
How does that make it any better?

>You are being spied upon by malicious mutt demons yet I don't see you complain about that.
Haha, very funny.

>Like in real life?
Last time i checked. My government doesn't go around murdering potentially troublesome figures. In fact, i'm pretty sure the death penalty is banned.

>She left due to daddy issues and because she wanted to learn magic
She could have learned magic and left her dad without leaving the human village. Yet she still did.

>They are wary of the youkai wanting to have more inside influence but it's never said that they hate living there.
Those people literally go out and risk their life. You don't do that if you think the life you have now is worth living.

>Leaders that can influence people are dangerous because not always are they right and they can convince others to join their cause either ways.
I mean, sure. But in that case, you would only be worried about certain kinds of people taking over. The Youkai meanwhile, are worried about ANY human becoming a ruler.

Like, if a government is worried about a minority group becoming a problem if unified under one leader. Then that's generally because that group is unhappy, and wants to improve their situation at all cost. Even if it means getting violent.

>>18632050
>You can wank science all you want but you'll look pretty silly getting clonk'd on the head by a flying girl who pulls telephone poles out of the ground in plain sight in the outside world,

Science does work though in the Touhou Universe. Most magic even seems to follow clarke's third law. Only Youkai don't have a place in the modern world. And that's because their existence is unnatural. Their extinction guaranteed by their very nature as creatures affected by human thought.

>>18632640
This post is just full of delusions, you might just disappear into gensokyo at this rate, ironically.

>>18632664
Looking at the wikipedia page for Clarke's three laws, I found this variant
"Any sufficiently advanced act of benevolence is indistinguishable from malevolence"
Seems to fit Yukari's bill.

>>18632640
>Some social mobility
There are poormen and richmen
>Trade with other human towns/cities
That's barely an issue
>Being able to actually leave and build a different life elsewhere
Marisa did so.
>Not living in constant fear of Youkai.
The fact that their ancestors decided to settle there to keep youkai at bay doomed their existence to always be in constant fear of youkai. Yet they don't have to worry about paying taxes, getting drafted into the army, getting attacked by armies, thiefs or looters or getting the village ruined by a drought, a storm or an earthquake. The downsides you mention aren't even that much of an issue.
>They also don't have the prosperity and safety of most first world countries
Like I said, there are also rich families in Gensokyo, there is no political prosperity but they can have wealth and a social status.
>No, we haven't. Just because they don't all mope around looking depressed, doesn't mean their happy and satisfied.
The only time we've seen a villager in distress was when Druggie Kun feared the end of the world, everywhere else we've seen the villagers leading their lives normally. And all you can do is want to assume they somehow aren't content with their life.
>How does that make it any better?
The origin of the village meant that they were supposed to live fearing the youkai forever.
>Last time i checked. My government doesn't go around murdering potentially troublesome figures. In fact, i'm pretty sure the death penalty is banned.
We know Yukari spies on the village but we don't know if she murders them, we assumes she does it. She can't go around killing her precious villagers, specially when she's not the only one involved on controlling the village so there might be something else she does like mind controlling (you can ignore this part, it's pretty much just headcanon).
>She could have learned magic and left her dad without leaving the human village. Yet she still did.
Assumptions
>Those people literally go out and risk their life. You don't do that if you think the life you have now is worth living.
>The society's purported aims are to trace the beginnings of the humans and youkai that reside in Gensokyo and discover its secrets. Since they also investigate in areas where youkai are active, it was said that deaths have also occurred in extreme cases
>Humans exploring the roots of Gensokyo
-
>Then that's generally because that group is unhappy, and wants to improve their situation at all cost. Even if it means getting violent.
See the cases of the cults, people before joining them weren't expecting their whole life for someone to save them and to leave their life behind and wait for the day to be forced to do a mass suicide. They were influenced by the leaders into thinking they desired that way of living. Influential people can be decieving and they can be pretty dangerous, now imagine if a demagogue run around the village enforcing the idea of going at war with youkai or that they should mass suicide to bring down the youkai with them. They can't afford to risk losing their golden egg laying goose.

>>18574407
here's nothing implicit in the laws of nature which says that stealing things is wrong, because the laws of nature don't have anything to do with morality. Neither the concept of 'theft' nor the concept of 'wrong' are innate to humans. They have to be taught. The key difference between this idea and Searle's Chinese Room thought experiment is that this idea allows the contents of the 'poster' to be altered by material from the 'IN' slot. Every human starts off with a blank poster, and over the years, it's filled with more and more rules for taking the 'input' of human social interaction and converting it into 'output' – your own participation in that social interaction. So, if we're talking about 'theft' being 'wrong', we have to think about it in terms of the 'input', the 'output', and the 'rules'.
Anyway, all of these 'rules' get used to process the 'input' and eventually the 'output' pops out – let's say, for instance, that you decided to take the banknote and return it to the guy who dropped it. In this case, the rule 'theft is wrong' won out over 'money is something to be acquired'. His idea was that every human is fundamentally just 'shuffling symbols' inside the 'box' – mindlessly accepting input and manipulating it according to arbitrary, abstract rules that we only have because 'culture' or 'civilisation' imparts them to us through meta-rules. Internally, there's no such thing as society, or even morality – just rules and meta-rules, which the vast majority of people go about their lives entirely unaware of.
It's not impossible for people to become aware that they exist inside a 'box'. In some cases, they even recognise the nature of rules and meta-rules. People whose process of ideation is no longer unconsciously governed by rules and meta-rules – these people are 'sociopaths'. sociopaths are those who are aware of the arbitrary nature of the rules that govern the nature and method of their human interactions.
So being a sociopath is good.

>>18634003
>So being a sociopath is good.
Eh, it's not that great. This is coming from someone who barely can feel any empathy for others. It's a lonely life. You're inhuman, but still human at the same time. You can't make connections with others, but you still have those base, human desires.

>>18634003

I am so glad none of the other Touhou comics attract this shit. FS fans are the worst.

>>18634003
So you admit that Yukari/Maribel is a sociopath? (Ironic considering the fact that Merry used to be a psych major)

>>18625235
>She eats children
Does she? I don't recall specifics. Also, that isn't "wrong", since she's a youkai. If she's indeed Maribel, it's wrong that she became a youkai, though.

>that still doesn't make their situation "good".
Certainly "good" is a matter of opinion, but "fairly free to explore at your own risk, got food, got protection from the elements, got crazy magic if you're willing to brave the wilds" is a pretty sweet deal. You at least see very few people complaining. Keine thinks those who do are stupid, at least.

>>18635428
forgot my pic (which was meant to support my claims: this authority from the ministry of right and wrong supports youkai doing youkai things, as it is the natural order)

>>18634003
Cough Reimu Cough

>>18635425
Yes, and that’s a good thing.

>>18634385
FS was a mistake.

>>18636555
Yes it was.

>>18633906
>There are poormen and richmen
Economic mobility is not the same thing as social mobility.

>That's barely an issue
It means they miss out on things people in normal pre industrial towns would have.

>Marisa did so.
Not really. She still lives in Gensokyo. Probably pretty close to the human village. And even then, leaving like that is a privilege only extended to those gifted in magic.

>The fact that their ancestors decided to settle there to keep youkai at bay doomed their existence to always be in constant fear of youkai
Actually, they came to Gensokyo to fight against Youkai. Their ancestors were brave heroes. Not people living in fear. That presumably started changing after they were cut off.

> paying taxes
They still presumably have to pay rent though. And other similar expenses.

>thiefs or looters or getting the village
Thieves are also probably still a issue. They could have a local Yakuza gang, for all we know.

>Like I said, there are also rich families in Gensokyo
That doesn't change the fact that their rich people aren't nearly as well off as rich people in the outside world. And that's even more true for their poor.

>everywhere else we've seen the villagers leading their lives normally.
Sure. But they don't exactly look happy living their lives normally. I'll admit they're not exactly sad either. They're content because they don't have any other choice, nothing more.

>The origin of the village meant that they were supposed to live fearing the youkai forever.
Again, no. They were supposed to go there to protect japan from Youkai. And as a result, they and their ancestors became trapped for the rest of eternity to serve as Youkai cattle. I think that's a pretty rotten fate for such noble people.

>We know Yukari spies on the village but we don't know if she murders them
I mean. it's POSSIBLE she brainwashes them, which isn't that much better anyway. But considering her usual methods for solving problems. A few unfortunate accidents or disappearances seem more like her style.

>Assumptions
No. Magicians living in the human village is canon.

>See the cases of the cults
The way a cult leader works, and the way a village leader works is very different though. You can't really compare the two.

>They can't afford to risk losing their golden egg laying goose.
That's only because the Youkai created a situation such a person would flourish. If the human villagers actually were happy and satisfied with their life. Most of them would never consider mass suicide or warfare.

>>18635428
>Does she? I don't recall specifics.

It's made pretty clear by her dialogue in PCB.

>Also, that isn't "wrong", since she's a youkai.

That's nonsense. Youkai are clearly as intelligent as humans. And should be held to the same standards as humans. If a youkai, especially one as powerful as Yukari, kills children. Then she's no different from a serial killer, and should be treated accordingly.

> is a pretty sweet deal.
I don't really think it is. Especially in comparison to the outside world.

>You at least see very few people complaining.
Well, what's the point of complaining? They're stuck there, and whining about it constantly isn't going to improve the situation.

>>18635440
I don't remember the ministry of right and wrong supporting Youkai doing evil shit. And even if they do, fuck em. Bunch of filthy hypocrites.

>>18634003
That's not what a sociopath is. It's a actual mental disorder caused by something wrong in the brain. That results in a lack of empathy, and a incredibly self centered worldview.

It's also really not a good thing. There's a reason why so many serial killers are sociopaths. Because if you don't have any empathy or morality. Why not kill somebody for fun as long as you can get away with it?

>>18635463
Reimu is just a self interested bitch though, not really a sociopath. She supports Gensokyo's terrible status quo of murder and oppression because it benefits her. And doesn't care about anybody but her friends.

>>18625235
I'm a poor third worlder and I'd jump over to the human village in a heartbeat, don't speak for us you disgusting richboy.

>>18636626
>Economic mobility is not the same thing as social mobility.
By social mobility you mean getting into politics?
>It means they miss out on things people in normal pre industrial towns would have.
That's barely an issue. They have all the needed goods centralized at the village.
>leaving like that is a privilege only extended to those gifted in magic.
She worked hard to learn her magic, she wasn't gifted like Reimu.
>they came to Gensokyo to fight against Youkai. Their ancestors were brave heroes.
Even if they were able to exterminate youkai and had to constantly fight them off every night, I really doubt they weren't in constant fear of a youkai attack since youkai were allowed to attack them, there were no safespots.
>They still presumably have to pay rent though. And other similar expenses.
Source?
>Thieves are also probably still a issue.
Now that you mention it, there was an incident with a youkai disguising as human, eating at restaurants to leave without paying and disappear but they solved that issue and it all went back to normal. Other than that, the village has been shown to be rather peaceful despite having no laws.
>They could have a local Yakuza gang, for all we know
Assumptions
>That doesn't change the fact that their rich people aren't nearly as well off as rich people in the outside world. And that's even more true for their poor
You want to compare them to first world places but don't want to compare it to third world places where they have a better way of life. And compared to other feudal societies from the past that are more similar to the village than the first world of today. They are living way better.
>They're content because they don't have any other choice, nothing more.
You are asumming they don't live happily because you want to believe they live badly.
>Again, no. They were supposed to go there to protect japan from Youkai.
Even if they could fight back, that doesn't mean they didn't have to fear getting attacked by youkai (though this is speculation)
>No. Magicians living in the human village is canon.
But you said that Marisa wanted to leave the village because she didn't like the youkai overlords when it's more likely that it's due to daddy issues and him not liking the idea of her becoming a magician.
>The way a cult leader works, and the way a village leader works is very different though. You can't really compare the two.
You're missing my point, I'm saying that an influential leader can be deceiving and create a need to rebel against the youkai that wasn't there on the first place. Like with jews, most germans didn't care for the jews until they were blamed for by the nazis.
>That's only because the Youkai created a situation such a person would flourish. If the human villagers actually were happy and satisfied with their life. Most of them would never consider mass suicide or warfare.
See my point above.

>>18633481
Really? I don't see any delusions myself. Perhaps you could be more specific.

>>18633504
I think the opposite, "Any sufficiently advanced act of malevolence is indistinguishable from benevolence", would be more accurate for Yukari.

>>18636705
I didn't say poor third worlders have it better though. Only middle/upper ones.

>>18636752
>By social mobility you mean getting into politics?
Yes, more or less. At the very least, just accumulating enough political power to affect how things are run.

>That's barely an issue. They have all the needed goods centralized at the village.
They might have everything they need. But i doubt they have everything they would want.

>She worked hard to learn her magic,
She was still talented in some way. Or at least had the right personality to learn magic. If it was just a matter of working REALLY hard, then most people in the human village would be magicians.

>I really doubt they weren't in constant fear of a youkai attack since youkai were allowed to attack them, there were no safespots.
They were afraid of Youkai in the same way soldiers are afraid of tanks. Not in the way the villagers of today are afraid of Youkai.

>Source?
Basic human economics. People have expenses like food, water, repairs to their home. And unless they own their own land, rent.

>Assumptions
Yes. That's why i said, "for all we know."

>Other than that, the village has been shown to be rather peaceful despite having no laws.
They might be peaceful. But that doesn't mean they have no petty crimes.

>You want to compare them to first world places but don't want to compare it to third world places where they have a better way of life.
They have it better than poor people in third world countries. But that really isn't saying much. Most of the world is neither first or third world anyway. And those people too are generally happier than human villagers.

>And compared to other feudal societies from the past that are more similar to the village than the first world of today. They are living way better.
That depends. Not every feudal society was equal, after all.

>You are assuming they don't live happily because you want to believe they live badly.
No. i think they don't live happily because i don't see any proof that they do. Just proof that they're reasonably content.

>But you said that Marisa wanted to leave the village because she didn't like the youkai overlords when it's more likely that it's due to daddy issues and him not liking the idea of her becoming a magician.
No. I said Marisa was dissatisfied with living in the human village. Not that it was caused by her Youkai overlords. She just didn't like living there, otherwise she would have stayed.

>You're missing my point, I'm saying that an influential leader can be deceiving and create a need to rebel against the youkai that wasn't there on the first place.
Influential leaders can be deceiving, but only if enough dissatisfaction already exists. Like, the situation in Germany was already awful even before Hitler arrived and started blaming the jews. If Germany was doing just fine, he never would have been able to take over.

>>18634003
Go back to bed Yukari

>>18637055
The whole point of discussing is not to "win" but to learn and convince others of your point of view. We've been discussing this for too long, most of the points you make are irrelevant, assumptions and just moving away from the original point. It's not fun anymore and I realized that nothing I say will make you change your mind so there's no porpuse on trying.

>>18636555
>>18636575
FS didn't invent people who think Touhou is a horror movie.

>>18637726
No, but it spawned a lot of fags forcing their own headcanon despite ZUN telling us otherwise.

>>18636754
Sounds like you just have no love for Yukari, nor gensokyo itself. Therefore all Yukari does is wrong, and for her own benefit. Reimu is a selfish bitch. All the human villagers are oppressed, and unsatisfied, and the human village isn't a nice place to live. All the rest of the youkai, ghosts, gods, etc? Fuck 'em, they lost the "evolutionary race" and shouldn't exist anymore, or whatever. I don't know exactly what you think about this world but it seems like you don't really care about it much, which is pretty sad.

>>18634003
Is Yukari a sociopath?

>>18637713
>The whole point of discussing is not to "win"

I agree, hard though that might be to belief. Discussing each point like this isn't getting us anywhere. If you think the human villagers are happy, then fine. I think they're merely content. And that in comparison to most people living in the outside world, they have a pretty shitty life.

I don't think either one is going to convince the other. So unless you have a different point to make, then let's just end it here.

>>18637999
I like Gensokyo as a setting the same way i like Warhammer 40K as a setting. It's a facinatingly shit situation. With a lot of potential for good storytelling.

Also, i don't think Youkai, ghosts, gods deserve to die. Or that they lost the evolutionary arms race. They just need to change their way. Creating Gensokyo, and then keeping it functional at the expense of thousands of innocent people. That's just not much of a solution. And powerful people like Reimu and Yukari that want to keep it the way it is, are both quite awful and selfish.

>>18636648
>>I don't remember the ministry of right and wrong supporting Youkai doing evil shit. And even if they do, fuck em. Bunch of filthy hypocrites.

>PoFV versus
>Eiki (vs Reimu): Exterminating Youkai.
>This is the good deed you can do right now.
>Eiki (vs Yuuka): Terrorizing humans more.
>This is the good deed you can do right now.
It's right and wrong, not good and evil ("good" here is meant as "ideal"). They judge by nature, not morality.

So again, it's not wrong for youkai to do what they do. There is nothing objectively different between a human child and a human adult, like how animals eat babies of other species because they're easier kills. Humans do this to. You'll also need to quote, since I still don't remember what you mean by PCB.

RE: they're satisfied with their situation. They are. They don't complain because they don't want to. Read the SoPM discussions. Miko wants to lead humanity in Gensokyo into a new age, but everyone agrees they wouldn't actually want that. Furthermore pretty much all of them are aware of the outside world situation, yet very few kick up a fuss about the discrepancy in lifestyle and treatment.

>>18639162
>It's right and wrong, not good and evil ("good" here is meant as "ideal"). They judge by nature, not morality.
Then, like i said, i think they're a bunch of filthy hypocrites. Holding Youkai to a different standard than humans is wrong. It will only ensure one has to eventually destroy the other. And until that moment, countless lives will be needlessly lost.

And before you argue "she's the highest judge, so she must be right", i don't care. Unlike most people on this thread, i do believe in morality. I believe in it because i also believe the only thing that matters in this world is that you try to make as many people as possible happy, without causing any suffering or pain to others. Compared to that, "right or wrong" is utterly meaningless.

>You'll also need to quote, since I still don't remember what you mean by PCB.
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Cherry_Blossom/Story/Sakuya%27s_Extra
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Cherry_Blossom/Story/Marisa%27s_Extra

Just read these two.

>but everyone agrees they wouldn't actually want that.
The privileged, powerful, people benefiting from the status quo agree it would be in their best interest. The human villagers opinion on the matter is irrelevant in that conversation.

>yet very few kick up a fuss about the discrepancy in lifestyle and treatment.
Because again, what can they do? Like, they can't go protesting outside Yukari's house. They're kept terrified and concentrated in that leaderless village to make sure they can't kick up a fuss.

They don't complain, because they can't complain, because they have nobody to complain to, because Yukari kills/brainwashes anybody that would be willing to listen. It's a effective system, but a pretty dystopian one.

>>18639112
>Discussing each point like this isn't getting us anywhere
I think you kinda missed his post. Go reread what you wrote man. You're constantly using words like "I doubt, I think, maybe, she could etc etc." and when people start to correcting you, you switch into a usual denial zone.

>>18639302
>You're constantly using words like "I doubt, I think, maybe, she could etc etc." and when people start to correcting you, you switch into a usual denial zone.

I used those words because Touhou lore is vague, and somewhat inconsistent. A lot of things only implied, rather than said outright. People don't "Correct me", they just give me a different interpretation i think is less valid.

>>18639162
>It's right and wrong, not good and evil ("good" here is meant as "ideal"). They judge by nature, not morality.
So if your nature was being a human sociopath, then you wouldn't be judged by Eiki for acting according to your nature?

>>18639335
I imagine not. Since most humans in PoFV are judged for following their nature. Because again, Eiki is a massive hypocrite.

>>18639328
>Touhou lore is vague
What do you mean vague? You literally have shitton of additional material.
>inconsistent
Oh great. Now it's even inconsistent. Are you the same person that called WaHH not canon in a fairies thread?

>>18639296
>I believe in it because i also believe the only thing that matters in this world is that you try to make as many people as possible happy, without causing any suffering or pain to others.
I pity you

>>18639335
No, if you aren't up to human standard or youkai standard you're "wrong".

>>18639342
Not true. Marisa is criticized for lying and stealing, Reimu is both criticized for fighting too much, and for not dealing with youkai (properly) enough. You can't just say she's a hypocrite when she follows a really easy to understand code: "do what you're supposed to do". That's all. Again, this isn't about morality. It never was.

>>18639359
>What do you mean vague?
I mean a lot of things are only implied, rather than flat out said. Often deliberately to create fan discussion, i assume.

>Oh great. Now it's even inconsistent.
It is. There have been plenty of retcons over the years. Some more awkward than others.

>>18639296
>Holding Youkai to a different standard than humans is wrong
Because they're literally different species with different inclinations and natures? Are you retarded?

>>18639370
Can’t argue with these moralfags

>>18639367
>There have been plenty of retcons over the year
So, just because things doesn't fit your headcanon they are retcons now? Holy fucking shit.

>>18639296
And one more thing: you are literally making shit up. We KNOW what humans have to say about things. Akyuu IS a human villager. Marisa WAS a human villager. Everyone there has those villagers in their interest. The rebels in the past have only been criticized by, again, HUMAN VILLAGERS (what is Keine?) You're so fucking full of it. Shut your fucking opinions up in a discussion about facts. All your bitching and moaning is yours. You have the direct statements, it's ridiculous

>>18639366
>No, if you aren't up to human standard or youkai standard you're "wrong".
Fucking double standards, man.
>be a youkai-like human
>go to hell simply because you gained a fucked up nature from birth or because of nurture reshaping you to be that way
>be a kind, human-like youkai who makes everyone's lives a better place
>go to hell because you're not doing youkai things
>be an evil youkai who eats babies by the millions
>go to heaven, you did a good job
Darth Kosuzu was right.

>>18639396
That's not double, it's just standard. It's unwavering judgment.

>>be a youkai-like human
That means you harm other humans and spread terror. Black.
>>be a kind, human-like youkai who makes everyone's lives a better place
Unless you are a youkai that doesn't exist off of terror (supernatural phenomenon youkai, tsukumogami), this means your very existence is threatened and you are disturbing the natural order. Black.
>>be an evil youkai who eats babies by the millions
You've done your job. Existence and balance are correct. White.

>>18639365
Why? Because i believe doing good is very important? Because if so, i think your pity might be missaimed.

>>18639370
They might have inclinations and a different nature. But if they cause suffering and pain to others, then it's still a bad thing.

>>18639383
No. Like, there have actually been lore elements that have changed over the years. Just compare the PCB prologue to more recent lore.

>>18639385
Marisa is a very privileged person. While Akyuu is at least aware of the human villages true nature and purpose. Keine is half Youkai. None of those people are average human villagers. Even Kosuzu is probably more privileged than most.

>You're so fucking full of it. Shut your fucking opinions up in a discussion about facts. All your bitching and moaning is yours. You have the direct statements, it's ridiculous

No need to get so angry. Most arguments on this threads are opinions, not facts. Don't try to pretend otherwise.

>>18639414
I'm baffled, not angry. You are upholding your opinions as facts, as here
>if [youkai] cause suffering and pain to others, then it's still a bad thing.
To speak of hypocrites.

>>18639422
my last point to this is that humans also cause pain and suffering to others, they're just not intelligent beings. We need to eat to live, and so we murder. What's the difference?

>>18639414
>Just compare the PCB prologue to more recent lore
What exactly? Surprise me.
>Most arguments on this threads are opinions, not facts
Except most people here told you exactly why are you wrong with statements and you just swept that under the table with "nah, different opinions, doesn't count".

>>18639406
>That's not double, it's just standard. It's unwavering judgment.

It's a awful standard. That's all i would say matters. If it's "double" is largely irrelevant.

>>18639422
Yes, because that's one of the few facts i have. Causing pain and suffering is always bad. I mean, unless you're either a sociopath or work as a torturer. How is that even up to debate?

>>18639426
Not all humans cause pain and suffering. A lot of people do more good than bad. I would say the majority, even.

Like, you even have people that don't choose to eat animal meat because they think it would make the world a better place.

>>18558141

That's like saying that animals in Zoo have it good.

>>18639443
>If it's "double" is largely irrelevant.
Then why did YOU say double? It's a standard. It doesn't matter what you think of it.

>that's one of the few facts i have
But it's not a fact. I've even pointed out for you how the fact, actual, is that both groups of beings are in the right as judged by THE judge of the setting. And about causing pain and suffering..

>Not all humans cause pain and suffering.
We all do. We ALL do. We all kill to live. All animals do. It's our only way to exist. We murder, and eat the flesh of those we consider beneath us, because we L I T E R A L L Y have to. Similarly youkai must terrorize to exist. Some also need to eat. Keep in mind that this also relates to the back and forth of reality. Animals kill and eat each other, or kill and avoid one another. Similarly humans exterminate youkai, who terrorize humans. They maintain balance in this way. In recent years in Gensokyo, it has gotten to the point where only one exterminator is needed for survival, but in the past it was a village of exterminators. Again, back and forth, survival. Basic. Nothing moral in the argument.

>>18639441
>What exactly? Surprise me.

Well. The human villagers were originally far more powerful. Every one of them having the firepower and skill necessary to fight Youkai.

The barrier was originally created by humans to get rid of Youkai.

It was also said teams of Youkai would cross the boundary to abduct humans in the outside world. While newer lore implies Yukari takes care of that.

>and you just swept that under the table with "nah, different opinions, doesn't count".

No. I explained why i used words like "I doubt, I think, mabye, etc". That doesn't sweep away any arguments people might have made.

>>18639443
>>Like, you even have people that don't choose to eat animal meat because they think it would make the world a better place.
also re this: we're still built to eat flesh, like our teeth and gullets expect and desire meat as well as greens. It's very bizarre to forego this, and even vegetarians and vegans are mostly the result of parents, grandparents, etc having killed to survive, and if they live THEY have to kill PLANTS. Plants are alive too, you know? What separates their "right" to live? Things die so other things can keep going.

>>18639443
>you even have people that don't choose to eat animal meat because they think it would make the world a better place
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

We all do. We ALL do. We all kill to live. All animals do. It's our only way to exist. We murder, and eat the flesh of those we consider beneath us, because we L I T E R A L L Y have to. Similarly youkai must terrorize to exist. Some also need to eat. Keep in mind that this also relates to the back and forth of reality. Animals kill and eat each other, or kill and avoid one another. Similarly humans exterminate youkai, who terrorize humans. They maintain balance in this way. In recent years in Gensokyo, it has gotten to the point where only one exterminator is needed for survival, but in the past it was a village of exterminators. Again, back and forth, survival. Basic. Nothing moral in the argument.

>>18639466
>Then why did YOU say double?

That was a different poster.

>But it's not a fact. I've even pointed out for you how the fact, actual, is that both groups of beings are in the right as judged by THE judge of the setting.

I already said. I don't care that Eiki is the "highest judge". Even if it's the will of the heavens, if its wrong i think it's wrong. And i think that factually, it's bad to cause misery.

>We all do. We ALL do. We all kill to live.
No. Like, people L I T E R A L L Y don't need to eat meat to survive. It's called "being a omnivore". If i stopped eating meat, i wouldn't die. And yes, we do need to eat plants to survive. But if you honestly think eating plants is the same as eating a sapient intelligent living creature. Then please, get help.

>They maintain balance in this way.
No. Humans exterminate Youkai because they want them all dead. Youkai are the ones who care about balance, because conflict is necessary for THEIR survival. If the human villagers could have disrupted that ballance and wiped out the Youkai, they would have done so in a heartbeat.

>>18639473
>Well. The human villagers were originally far more powerful. Every one of them having the firepower and skill necessary to fight Youkai.
Yes. Originally. Nowadays humans are lazy assholes.
>The barrier was originally created by humans to get rid of Youkai.
Which is correct. Sages were behind the idea and shit though.
>It was also said teams of Youkai would cross the boundary to abduct humans in the outside world. While newer lore implies Yukari takes care of that.
>newer
>newer
Dude. Dude that is in Yukari's profile Read nigga READ.

>>18639498
>also re this: we're still built to eat flesh, like our teeth and gullets expect and desire meat as well as greens.

Yeah, we do. But we don't have to eat meat. The same appears to be true for MOST Youkai.

>It's very bizarre to forego this, and even vegetarians and vegans are mostly the result of parents, grandparents, etc having killed to survive,
Most commoners eating meat is a pretty new phenomenon actually. For most of human history, most people were vegetarians out of necessity.

>and if they live THEY have to kill PLANTS. Plants are alive too, you know? What separates their "right" to live?
I repeat, if you honestly think eating plants is the same as eating a sapient intelligent living creature. Then please, get help

>>18639366
What about humans who become Youkai? Seems pretty common, desu. What morality are they held to? Wouldn't youkai-like humans just become youkai, then?

>>18639540
>Yes. Originally. Nowadays humans are lazy assholes.

No. Like the implication was that the human villagers were STILL all capable of fighting Youkai. And that's the reason why Gensokyo is a paradise even for humans.

That also seemed to be the case in PMISS.

>Which is correct. Sages were behind the idea and shit though.
In the PCB prologue. It was completely the humans doing, Youkai only strengthened the barrier later. The sages weren't even a thing yet.

>Dude that is in Yukari's profile
If you mean her PCB profile. It's only mentioned there that she spirits people away. Not that she takes care of Gensokyo's food supply.

>>18639359
>Are you the same person that called WaHH not canon in a fairies thread?
That was me and that was a joke, autismo.

>>18639568
>all capable of fighting Youkai
I didn't say they aren't capable. I said they are lazy.
>The sages weren't even a thing yet.
Uh, Yukari? Also this. Sages are mentioned here. https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Dragon
>>18639568
>It's only mentioned there that she spirits people away. Not that she takes care of Gensokyo's food supply
But there is no contradiction in that statement you baka.

I hope FS gets a sequel soon.

>>18639628
>I didn't say they aren't capable. I said they are lazy.
They aren't capable at all anymore. With the expectation of a few like Reimu and Marisa, most humans can't fight Youkai.

>Uh, Yukari?
Yukari existed. But she wasn't a sage yet. Just the one behind the spiriting away. Also, i was talking about PCB. Not Perfect Memento, even though some parts of that have also clearly been retconned. Like the human villagers having a leader.

>But there is no contradiction in that statement you baka.
What are you even on about?

>>18639567
I'd wager by Eiki's lecture to Cirno, turning into something else is not recommended if you want to be judged well in the afterlife. However, since you "switched jobs", perhaps her punishments will be more lenient on you.

>>18639549
Living is living, stop undermining lives simply to suit your moralistic arguments. If plants were demonstrably intelligent, we would still eat them, as seen with animals. The point I'm making is the necessity of taking life to live life, which you don't seem to get in this discussion about objective rights and wrongs, which it has been since the start in spite of your constant attempts at making it about good and evil (which are ENTIRELY subjective anyway, so it's a foolish endeavor)

>>18639649
>They aren't capable at all anymore
Because they are lazy assholes
>But she wasn't a sage yet
Uh, proofs? Are you really saying that ZUN didn't plan Yukari as a Youkai sage?
>even though some parts of that have also clearly been retconned
Ah yes. "Retcons" like those you presented I presume.
>What are you even on about?
Pretending to be retarded again? We knew that somone was supplying Scarlet Sisters with meat. Well, whatever, do what you want.

>>18639661
>Living is living, stop undermining lives simply to suit your moralistic arguments.

Like, again, if you honestly don't understand the difference between eating a plant and eating meat, even animal meat. Then please, get some help. You're a potential danger to society.

> If plants were demonstrably intelligent, we would still eat them, as seen with animals.
Some people would probably be more reluctant though. And if they had human level intelligence, absolutely not.

> The point I'm making is the necessity of taking life to live life, which you don't seem to get in this discussion about objective rights and wrongs,

1: Does eating nuts count as taking a life? What if you only ate meat somebody else killed? Or eating fruits without killing the plant that created them.

This idea that we humans "have to kill to survive" is stupid misanthropic crap. It's nonsense of the highest order. And the only reason why you believe it is because it justifies your stupid "survival justifies everything" mentality.

2: I never agreed to this discussion. I would have rather talked about good and evil if i had the choice.

3: What even are objective right and wrongs? And how is it any different from good or evil? Are you just talking about Eiki's nonsense? Because i've already said that's idiotic, and i don't care about it.

>>18639733
You live in a society of killers. The computer you type on was provided by several minds and hands who have likely all killed and eaten. Then there's your parents, drivers, teachers. If you benefit in any way from this society, if you are not a total weirdo hermit who lives in the woods and only drinks water, you are contributing to or benefiting from a perfectly natural cycle of death, and you can try over and over to say I'm crazy for equating a life to a life, but that's how it is on a very basic level. Youkai do the same thing.

Anyway if you don't care about discussing a setting in terms of...the fucking SETTING and the characters who determine it, well, then why are you HERE?

>>18639728
>Because they are lazy assholes
No. Because ZUN decided it would be more interesting if the humans aren't as powerful. So, he changed the lore to suit his story. Or are you seriously going to tell me that between PCB and Symposium. Almost every single human villager got so lazy that they lost all of their power?

>Are you really saying that ZUN didn't plan Yukari as a Youkai sage?
Yes. That is absolutely what i am saying. I can say, with absolute confidence, that ZUN did not plan for Yukari to be a Youkai sage.

>Ah yes. "Retcons" like those you presented I presume.
Yes. Those things. Like how the human villagers apparently had a leader according to PMISS. Yet clearly don't in recent lore.

You do realize what retcon means, right?

>We knew that someone was supplying Scarlet Sisters with meat.
Oh. That's what you mean. That wasn't really a thing until PMISS.

>>18639733
Right and wrong do not exist. Neither does good or bad. These are all constructs of the mind.

In the end, everything dies, and then that's it. Nothing matters.

>>18639758
I don't live in a society of killers. I live in a society where some people occasionally choose to kill. I am in no way responsible for those peoples actions. Nor do i think all of them are necessarily bad. But acting like somebody is complacent in the way a civilisation functions simply because he doesn't live like a hermit is very stupid. You are a idiot.

There's also nothing natural about the way human society functions. If anything, it might be destroying nature.

>and you can try over and over to say I'm crazy for equating a life to a life
Oh, believe me. That's not the only reason why i think you're crazy. But yes, the fact that you equate a plant, a animal, and a human, as things of equal worth is proof that you are insane.

>Youkai do the same thing.
No. Youkai just don't care about the consequences of their actions, besides how it will affect them They aren't any different from sociopaths in that regard.

>Anyway if you don't care about discussing a setting in terms of...the fucking SETTING and the characters who determine it, well, then why are you HERE?

Well, if you can't tell, i do actually like discussing the setting and the characters. Even if people disagree with me. But i must admit, i do find the insane arguments people like you come up with to justify the behavior of fictional characters to be utterly fascinating.

>>18639776
>Like how the human villagers apparently had a leader according to PMISS
If you mean this thing then this isn't some public leader man. There's literally some random group working in secret. The closest thing you could call a leader that the human village ever had was Crown Prince. Again, you presented me nothing but your headcanon.
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Bohemian_Archive_in_Japanese_Red/Keine
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Secret_History_Association

>>18639794
Yes, yes, yes. Free will is a myth. Religion is a joke. We are all pawns, controlled by something greater: Memes. The DNA of the soul.

>>18639870
No, like. Keine article in PMISS mentions the "leaders son".

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Keine_Kamishirasawa

If you're going to keep clinging to your stupid belief that ZUN doesn't retcon. And Touhou lore is totally consistent. Then at least do some research.

>>18639865
Is a shark or lion evil for taking the life of an intelligent human?

Is killing a human as a human always evil, regardless of the consequences?

Is it evil or good to let a person who has killed another person live?

(my point is that morals are silly, and can't really be used for arguments)