/jp/ - Otaku Culture

They're not gay, just good friends.

>>16877417
They wouldn't be as special if they weren't only in the CDs, and also vice versa. The CDs wouldn't be special without them.

Their stories are honestly some of the best and most meaningful things that ZUN does as far as 2hu goes, because he uses them to explore and express his own philosophy in a charming and emotional way. I don't think that nearly as much thought or feeling would go into their stories if he had a monthly manga or something about them.

treating them like a generic yuri couple is an insult to ZUN's writing

they're not even gay

>>16877469

>>16877469
The fuck is this, then?

I read on TMZ that Merry was arrested for strangling Renko with her own tie.

(Renko's own tie, not Merry's. I don't think Merry has a tie)

>>16877842
That's not true! Merry would never do that!

are they from the past or future relative to us? some people say Renko is Sumireko's ancestor and some say she's her descendant

>>16877955

Sorry the Smoking Gun has it as well. Renko is declining to press charges though. There may be more to the story.

>>16878035
Lies! Renko and Merry are the best of friends! Don't believe the news!

>>16878046

Surveillance footage found.

Warning graphic.

>>16878057
T-that was faked! Faked!

>>16878046

FINAL WARNING: GRAPHIC.

>>16878057
>>16878065
Renko looks like a boy here.

So is there a celebrity divorce in the works?

Is this what Drives Merry to evolve into the gapheg?

>>16878065
N-not true! This didn't happen! Lier! LIEEEERRR!!!!!

>>16878081

Merry has a history of violent and deviant behavior.

>>16878091
That's just gentle affection!

Friends should do this more often.

>>16878098

And this?

I think not. Emotional and physical cruelty and domination. Merry is a serial abuser. They both need therapy and counseling.

>>16877990
The future, although their future is different from ours considering Mount Fuji is already a world heritage site without the need for garbage.

best friends

>>16878107
if you read more by that author, they do

>>16878197
It's more that ZUN released 53 Minutes in 2006 and incorrectly thought it wouldn't be designated for a while, but oops 2013. For the most part he aims for stuff a decently long time away but he fucked up.

>>16877417

They're just friends. Merry is just my wife Renko's platonic friend.

>>16877450

Pretty much this.

>>16877469

How does them being gay change them into a "generic yuri couple" if they aren't two generic girls in the first place? None of their characterization changes if you assume they're into each other so how is it an "insult to ZUN's writing"?

>>16878197
how does Hearn become Yakumo?

>>16877990

>>16879255
It doesn't. The "generic yuri couple" thing comes from people inserting their headcanon where they act like generic yuri girl #1 and generic yuri girl #2 if they were indeed gay, as opposed to acting like Maribel and Renko (but gay). If you're wondering what I mean, check out some doujins or art where they're a couple, it never feels like Maribel and Renko, just lesbian anime girls that look like them.

While the name "Hangover of Bedfellows Dreaming Differently" and how they're waking up in the same building (apartment? dorm?) in the story for that very song raises some eyebrows, I'm just going with my gut and assume they're straight. It seems like ZUN tries to stray far away from homosexuality in his works, and that's why I'm doubtful.

>>16879379

How does he "steer away from homosexuality", he just doesn't blatantly discuss sexuality in either direction most of the time. In fact the only time anyone does make a sexually charged comment is in SOEW and it's Reimu agreeing to let a woman have sex with her.

I mean you can believe whatever you want but them being straight isn't any more canon than them being gay.

>>16879416
I don't know what leftist propaganda you've been stuffng your colon with, but being straight is the default for humanity. R&M being straight is as good as unspoken canon, until canonically shown otherwise.

Not that it matters in the least, mind. It's just yurishitters being themselves and trying to shove their fetish into things where sexuality doesn't even play a role.

>>16879425

What's "default" for humanity is irrelevant to fictional canon, especially one with all sorts of fantasy elements in it. And it's not as if straight people don't shove straight shipping (usually with themselves) onto any given character too, don't be stupid.

>>16879425
I've seen you in multiple boards now and I really wonder how miserable your life must be, because in your little world love is nothing but a sexual drive toward reproduction.
What is that you are really trying to prove? Is this waifufaggotry? I just don't understand.

And this is for your information, biologically speaking girls never find anyone sexually attractive because of the way nature works. Only males sexually pursue partners.
You just willingly shut yourself away from the purest of love and there's really nothing more pitiful I can think of. And you just don't wanna change no matter how many times I say this to you.
Your heart is so dirty and blind, don't you see.

>>16879479
>biologically speaking girls never find anyone sexually attractive because of the way nature works
Dude what the hell are you even on about "the way nature works", what does that even mean. Females have a role in selecting their mate in all sorts of species, including homo sapiens, and physical appearance is a part of that.

You're right that that guy is a tool though.

>>16879478
My point stands.

>>16879514
They of course do choose the strongest ones all the time, but what I'm saying is that they can't get sexually aroused by looking at a handsome male's picture. Females' sexual arousal is only a byproduct of the human sexual drives found in male which force them to seek for partners. It's just an illusion. It's the seeking part that matters.
What that guy was thinking was something like, girls drool over nude males just as much as men do over girls, which is simply ignorant.

You know I really don't care how much he demonizes real life lesbians as his imaginary enemy, but lily really isn't about lesbians. The girls don't even have to think about having sex with each other.
People like that are just mentally ill. I just don't see why imaging a fictional character being "straight" can make him feel safe.

First post in this thread: Shipping is dumb. Period.
It's strange how the actual canon relationships in any series ever are rarely drawn but you get a bunch of retarded crack bullshit if a character has anything in common with another character, be it a similar power, color scheme, etc.
According to some of these fucks having a character say so much as one word to another character is grounds for "they want to fuck" headcanon.

>>16879537
mei x flan for life

>>16879533
What sort of early 20th century antiquated science books are you even reading dude, of course women find certain things sexually attractive and can get sexually aroused from pictures.

>>16879567
It's funny because that pairing only exists to parallel the Sakuya x Remilia ship and officially they've never even interacted in canon.

>>16879575
I don't think anyone even romantically ships the meiflan one. It's almost always just horsing around.

>>16879425
>but being straight is the default for humanity
Should somebody tell him about how things were before Judaism and Christianity appeared?

>>16879592
Yes, I'm sure the ancient Romans or Sumerians bred by gay buttsex and scissoring.

Do gays actually think heterosexualism is a Christian social construct?

>>16879597
No, but if you seriously think that being gay was something uncommon back then, then i don't know what to tell you.

This thread is bad and you should feel bad.

>>16879600
I'd like you to point out where I said that, because I'm fairly sure not even stretching the definition of "default" would give you anything more than a "really, only a small percentage of humans isn't straight because not only is reproduction a fundamental mechanic in a species, but also because homosexuality is a genetically self-destructive trait."

In other words, my dear numpty, homosexuals have never been, and will never be a major fraction of the human race, and assuming a member of the human species to be straight is much, much, MUCH more likely to be correct than assuming them to be gay. Common? As common as any given lifestyle can be. In majority, or even in any significant fraction? Biologically unlikely.

>>16879627

"not straight" includes bisexual people which is not a genetically destructive trait and has no particular reason to not be present in most humans. Bisexuality (or at least having sex with both males and females) is common in other species who have recreational sex and it'd probably be quite common in humans if it weren't for societal factors.

>>16879753
What's your point?

The real question is why someone would go into a lesbians thread with a dislike for lesbians? You don't like something, ignore it my dude. Create a different thread.

Just throwing that into consideration for those trying to make a point on validity of homosexuality.

>>16879416
I'm the fellow you replied to here, I had gone to sleep and I hope you haven't mistaken me for the one screaming about "leftist propaganda".

I was actually going to bring up Meira myself. What you forgot to mention is that Reimu had mistaken Meira for a man. She had not intentionally agreed to do anything lesbian. After Meira realizes what had happened, she gets embarrassed and mentions how gross two women liking each other is.

So, the only mention of homosexuality in the entire series (the same series in which nearly every important character is female and has been going for 20 years) portrays it in a negative light.

I know that it's more of ZUN choosing not to dive into romance or sexuality, but you'd think after so long there'd be at least some kind of hint to one character having feelings for another. I'd consider that staying away from homosexuality.

Being involved romantically takes the pure nature and essence of Renko and Maribel's relationship as steadfast friends and comrades bonding over and chasing the unknowable mysteries of the universe and perverts it, changing and watering it down into dykes wanting to slam their clams together as dykes do.

It's the same problem when one casts Reimu and Marisa in this light, also. The way it's written both are closer to a platonic, romantic friendship/hetero life partner thing.

Yurishit, however, massively dumbs their relationship down, failing to ascribe anything meaningful or complex from their true relationship to it, basically ignoring what makes it and their interaction great.

Besides which, gay or straight, if it's not by ZUN and thus canon anything of this nature is absolutely haram.

>>16879533
My two sisters literally can't stop talking about hot guys, and tend to go after attractive male partners as one of their requirements.

The human race didn't continue because women were flicking beans and men were cave exploring, though.

>>16879925
>Being involved romantically takes the pure nature and essence of Renko and Maribel's relationship as steadfast friends and comrades bonding over and chasing the unknowable mysteries of the universe and perverts it
I don't think pretty much anyone in Touhou is gay, but I also don't agree with this.

Romantic love isn't "perverted". If you were to want to sex your partner that's just normal. You could certainly say there's perhaps an admirable quality to "just friends, nothing more" but there's nothing wrong with "more than friends" either. Actually I think that's why the ancients liked to have the gay sex? They felt their male friends were better partners than women or something. There's a lot of examples of that kind of thing, too. The "purity" of same sex love.

>>16879807
While I'm okay with SOME yuri shipping myself, I could understand getting irritated with Touhou yuri. Almost all of it is PURE secondary. For all its girls, Touhou is one of the un-gayest franchises around.

>>16879379
>>16879425
what have i started

i just wanted a Merry and Renko thread!

>>16879955
NONE of the CDs' stories were about romantic love. None.

Your move.

>>16880023
I don't have a move. I agree.

Just like how I'm fully aware Reimu and Marisa are super best friends but still read a lot of ReiMari yuri. I wouldn't ever say they're gay, but I enjoy thinking about it cause I'm a fag.

>>16879379
>The "generic yuri couple" thing comes from people inserting their headcanon where they act like generic yuri girl #1 and generic yuri girl #2 if they were indeed gay, as opposed to acting like Maribel and Renko (but gay).
Welcome to every Yuri pairing ever.

>>16879807
This is clearly meant to be a thread about Maribel and Renko. Not that I would expect a yuri subhuman to pay attention to such details.

Please stop conflating pure and wholesome yuri 2hu pairings with disgusting and depraved real-life dykes and homosexuals.

Complaining about people who draw Touhou yuri is like complaining about people who draw Yaoi of a sports Anime, it just makes one question "Why do you care so much? Any piece of Japanese media that features a cast that is 90% of the same gender will gather people like that, complaining about how out-of-character you think it is won't suddenly make them all go away.".

>>16881763
I don't understand how that means you shouldn't complain.

>>16881763
/u/ is literally, literally not /jp/. The letter is completely different. Not even close.

They're canonically not anything and as long as something doesn't gut the canon I'm usually willing to read it unless it's porn.

>>16881958
/u/ stuff seems to get more flak than a lot of equally character-breaking shit (basically everything).

>>16881763
Shipping in Touhou feels forced, and is mostly pushed by obnoxious secondary posters. Nobody would complain if Yurifags didn't push their agendas into topics where they aren't wanted, or didn't act like their perception of the characters held any real level of legitimacy.

>>16877417
>Why are they just limited to the CDs?
Yukari and Sumireko are already in the games, though.

>>16882352
Renko is a descendent/relative of Sumireko. The CDs are in the future, but ULiL is in the present. Yumemi is currently the most viable candidate for possibly being Renko.

>>16879974
That's a bit disengenuous. There are very, very few men that are relevant at all in Touhou, and Touhou just doesn't have romance in it period. Touhou Yuri is no better or worse than the mountains of straight doujins which are also completely out of place and out of character. It's all headcanon and secondary bullshit but I'm not going to cry about people enjoying what they like.

>yfw sexuality police shitting up the thread

>>16882527
go directly to jail
do not have sex
do not collect $200

Isn't it part of their background stories that neither Renko nor Maribel have any other friends besides each other? University students, yet friendless. They're the kind of weirdo outcasts who wouldn't know the first thing about comfortably befriending someone on purpose, let alone being in a romantic relationship with someone.

Kinda like me.

>>16882408
Why do you assume I flip in reverse?

It's aromantic so I don't imagine there's anyone interested in anyone. Even then the only notes of romance in this series (all in the past) were straight. I am simply particularly bothered by people saying "Touhou is yuri" because of this. They assume because everyone's female then, like most franchises/shows/series like it it's got to be subtly or not even subtly gay. It's not, and the only sexual or romantic anything is straight.

So I do get bothered, even if I'll enjoy secondary works. Because there's definitely a load of people who DON'T separate canon from fanworks.

>>16879917

Can you offer me the source of her saying that? Unless that conversation happens in a different game there's nowhere in their dialogue before or after the fight that implies that Reimu didn't know she was a woman.

>>16877450
This is a good post.

>>16882632
Don't worry about being friendless! Just make your own Occult research club in Uni/College, and in no time you too will have weird, almost supernatural waifus come out of nowhere and accompany you wherever.

>>16877417
If they're really lesbian, I need to teach them the joy of my dick.

>>16879425
hi chagen

>>16883354
The fact that ZUN included "And besides, I'm a woman!!" before Meira tells Reimu how lesbians are gross implies that Reimu was under the assumption that she was a man. If Reimu was aware she was a woman and was just taking a jab at lesbians, he wouldn't have included that.

Reimu never refers to her as a man, but it's implied that she thinks that Meira is from the need to explain that she isn't.

>>16884365
I meant to say "and ZUN was just taking a jab at lesbians..." My bad.

>>16884365

That's a pretty big leap, Meira could've easily been saying that thinking that Reimu knows she's a woman in the first place and simply being surprised she agreed to sleeping with her. Someone saying "but I'm a girl" when another girl makes a pass at them or something is incredibly common in Japanese media. After she says it Reimu doesn't show a single hint of surprise or embarrassment (or even a moment's hesitation) so it doesn't make any sense to assume she wasn't aware. You're assuming far too much that isn't actually included in their dialogue.

>>16879416
>>16879917
>>16883354
>>16884365
>>16884397

To me, it seems that people have read waaay too much into this exchange and have taken it way too seriously as some sort of ideological statement, as if it was something he would write now.

It is not at all Reimu seriously thinking Meira was propositioning her and accepting and also assuming Meira was a dude. Reimu just latches onto Meira's phrasing and runs with it as a joke to fluster her. Meira is being aggressive but gets flustered as Reimu plays coy to tease her. It's just a generic silly back-and-forth teasing script by a guy that doesn't know how to write yet, nothing more.

>>16884400
>generic silly back-and-forth teasing script by a guy that doesn't know how to write yet
And by that I mean that the one-sided "b-but we're both girls!" misunderstanding shtick is juvenile writing that is indicative of ZUN's skills at the time. It doesn't mean anything, it's just dumb dialogue like the rest of the game.

>>16884400
That guy is just legitimately mentally ill. There's a sick layer of denial on the logical section of his brain.
Quotes like "but we're both girls" show up in like 70% of yuri art works, and it would be a normal thing to say given the modern culture background. It's just meant to add a little more drama to it. What he sees in that, however, is the producers "making fun of yuri and not taking it seriously".
He's just literally insane.

>>16884400

I mean yes it's most likely just a silly little exchange of banter, but what I was saying from the beginning is that that's the only instance of a sexually charged remark in the whole series and it's Reimu being ok with sleeping with a girl, so saying that ZUN is "steering away from homosexuality" doesn't make sense compared to just saying he steers away from sexuality in general which is a much more accurate statement.

I imagine if you asked him he'd tell you that whatever interpretation you have of the character's sexuality is fine given he's so accepting of fan works.

>>16883527
I do actually have friends, but in all seriousness I do see Maribel & Renko being characterized as those kinds of introverted nerds who don't really care about hanging out with the average fellow uni student, and only do so with each other because they happened to become friends sometime in the past through coincidence and because the world would become crushingly lonely otherwise... and in that way, besides the supernatural stuff, I think ZUN is writing about people who could actually exist, within the Touhou fandom/general otaku populace or otherwise. I find Maribel in particular pretty relatable from what we learn about her in the stories, I was a little surprised when I realized that Renko tends to be the more popular of the duo with fans.

>>16884439
My point that it's only meaningless banter is just to preface the actual point that it's something he wrote in a game where he basically didn't think about anything besides the making of the game. I don't think it gives any insight into what ZUN was thinking even at the time, never mind being in any way related to the series as a whole. If you're saying it's the only instance of a sexually-charged remark "in the series", I would just say instead that this isn't one, so there are none at all. Besides that I agree with you.

My mfw face when every Renko and Merry thread is like this

>>16884540

What you're saying is just conjecture though, you're assuming things just because it's an early game in the series. For all we know he could have the dialogue framed in his living room, there's really no way to know whether it was something he put thought into when writing or not. I mean it's probably just a one off joke he never thought about like you said but SOEW is still part of the series and he has claimed that PC98 stuff is canon unless it contradicts with newer material.

So yes, it is a homoerotic sexually-charged remark and it is a part of the touhou series. You can say whatever you want but those are the only facts we actually know for sure, anything else is just assumptions.

>>16884365
>implies that Reimu was under the assumption that she was a man
That's not how I read it, especially because Reimu didn't even blink after she said that. She assumed Meira wanted to marry her or whatever and then Meira was like no, gross, we're women.

Also this doesn't matter so much because it's just goofy dialogue from early Touhou

>>16882382
>Yumemi
Doesn't even make sense in-universe either.

>>16885678
It could.
Here's what's established:
>Yumemi and Renko have a very similar wardrobe in some cases
>Maribel and Renko have a huge interest in magic and the supernatural
>Yumemi has an obsession with magic
>Renko is a college student, physics major
>Yumemi is a college professor, seems to be very knowledgeable in physics
>Both are humans in the future, but Yumemi is from a farther future
>Yumemi speaks about a grand unified theory
>Renko mentions a grand unified theory being developed in MA
>Maribel = Yukari
>Yukari is all over Gensokyo, but Renko is not, implying some sort of separation happens eventually
>Maribel has powers involving gaps and Gensokyo that are getting more powerful by the CD

It seems that Maribel eventually gets stuck in Gensokyo, and separated from Renko. Renko, not having any powers involving or just access in general to Gensokyo. Yumemi knows about magic and Gensokyo, and greatly desires to find Gensokyo and prove that magic is real. She lost her best friend to it, so of course she'll have passion for it.

However, I do admit that there are some anomalies in the theory.
>Yumemi is 18 (or at least claims to be 18) and says that children are graduating college at 13
>Maribel and Renko act like normal young adults and drink alcoholic beverages and get wasted as if it were nothing
>Yumemi doesn't act like Renko at all
>Yumemi doesn't seem remotely interested in finding her lost friend once she gets to Gensokyo at all

That's what I love about ZUN's stuff. He leaves people thinking and making connections after they experience the things that he makes. We'll just have to wait and and see where he goes with this one.

>>16887041
Renko is also nowhere, nowhere near as hot as Yumemi.

That said, Renko's hair has been getting redder with years in CD covers, so perhaps hope is at work.

>>16887041
You also forgot that Yumemi and Chiyuri weren't from the future at all, but a parallel world. Gensokyo already had its own Yumemi and Chiyuri. So there goes that whole theory.

>>16888202
Could you provide a source? I can't find anywhere in the dialogue where that's suggested, and I'm not quite sure if you should count Yumemi's scenario as the canon one, rather than Reimu's.

>>16888343
Chiyuri's scenario.
There was already a Chiyuri who could use magic, who Yumemi refers to as "this world's Chiyuri". You can infer from this that there was already a Yumemi who used magic as well as them being from a parallel world with Yumemi saying "this world's Chiyuri."
The second Yumemi in Yumemi's route was a duplicate created by the parallel Chiyuri who was messing around with their stuff.
>I'm not quite sure if you should count Yumemi's scenario as the canon one, rather than Reimu's.
There barely ever is a spoken "true" canon route in most of the games to begin with. Unless it's like the other fighting games or PoFV where there is a noted order of what's going on or it's just everyone doing their own thing. Other than that, when there is no known true route what's done is simply taking points and facts from each scenario and understanding the bigger picture, what the hints of what happened after.

>>16884928
Not to bother going any further with this, but that's a pretty disappointing response. In order to properly understand a work's place, you need its context. Instead, people too often reject context entirely just like this (usually in favor of pet biases) because hey we can't read the author's mind, right?

You don't have to be a writer or creator to understand that you suck ass when you start out and that those works don't mean anything in the grand scheme of things, and even within a series, things fundamentally change as you go. You don't need to read a gazillion interviews and posts to understand either. ZUN fully and publicly embraces that his early games were unrefined, unplanned, and he didn't think he'd go anywhere with the series. Saying things like "please take the latest games as more correct" and so on is a representation of this; not the backwards interpretation of "aha, so the old ones are still correct". Taking words at face value is easy and context requires effort, so I can't expect everyone to care, but at least don't pretend that context doesn't exist and all of the works just sprung from a timeless void.

>>16877417

I want to make Merry fall in love with me, then suddenly sleep with Renko and make their friendship fall apart!