/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>16263438
Chen is shit

>>16263450
I didn't really have any images that weren't confusing, relevant, or didn't distract from the tone of the post.

>>16263470
You could have posted that picture of Kaguya with the question mark above her.

>>16263479
Kaguya is shit, though.

>>16263484
I wonder what dumb, ugly, clown pants wearing shitter is behind this post.

>>16263484

You a shit.

>>16263484
No u

Okay.

>>16263438
The problem is that, while the fanbase became smaller, a lot of people are still exposed to EoSD/PCB content only: worst case scenario, fanon material only. It doesn't help that the first three Windows games are quite easy, discouraging them from trying harder games, and that newcomers get told nonsense like "PC98 isn't canon". This not taking the actual EoSD characters, which I find quite boring. Fans of other games just want representation for their games, instead of "EoSD, the classic, and its sequels that aren't as important as EoSD".

>>16263952
>nonsense like "PC98 isn't canon"
But it isnt'.

>>16264122
Read ZUN's latest interviews, secondary.

>>16264298
What interview are you talking about? I'm genuinely interested in reading it.

>>16263952
>PC98 isn't canon
It really isn't in the same timeline as the Windows Touhou games. It is it's own canon. Everything from PC98 more or less happened in the Windows canon, but many things have also been retconned and changed. If there are any condradicting information between a Windows game and a PC98 game, the newest one should be considered canon.

>>16264122
>>16264298
>>16264342
in before said interview just has one or two lines that people just interpret wildly to mean whatever

>>16263438
HONK
H
O
N
K

>>16264342
Here's a pretty old one: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/ZUN%27s_reply_to_messages_on_the_former_Gensou_Bulletin_Board_3
This one's newer:
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/ZUN%27s_AWA_Q%26A_Panel
There's also a very recent one at 2016 LA Anime Expo (it's on MotK) where he said "it's canon", but there has been a bit of debate about what "canon" meant. You can thank moonrunes.
The PC98 setting is still there, its events just don't get referenced. There are multiple carry overs (Yuuka and Alice remember Reimu), but when there's a contradiction between PC98 and Windows, Windows is the true canon.
I think there was also about an interview where he says that the Windows versions of PC98 characters are the same (and not some weird lookalikes or whatnot), but I can't find it and I might remembering wrong. Still, the fact that past characters recognize each other is enough proof.

Touhou is horrible

>>16263952
>newcomers get told nonsense like "PC98 isn't canon".
I'd like to argue that I've seen a lot of newcomers that hold the PC98 games on a pedestal, and think that those stories were "deep" and the PC98 characters were somehow "more complex" than the Windows characters.

What I'm saying here is that there's been a small surge of "PC98 hipsters", as I like to call them, and I don't know why.

>>16264981
>>>/v/

>>16263438
Some of us are just tired of seeing the same characters over, and over, and over, and over. We just want to see less appreciated characters get recognition. There's nothing wrong with liking 6-8 but only focusing on those characters makes me feel a bit sorry for the rest.

>>16265037
I like PC98, but the stories and characters are much more shallow than the Windows ones.

>What I'm saying here is that there's been a small surge of "PC98 hipsters", as I like to call them, and I don't know why.

I got interested in them because despite knowing already of the Windows games, I found it strange that there were 5 whole games that were completely ignored by most people (including the creator), so I got curious.

I like the retro style graphics, the non-spellcard system is fun and the music is fantastic. It also is interesting to see the PC98 characters that sort of serve as a prototype of Windows ones

>>16265067
I understand that, but it's a bit hard to take seriously when fans of those religious heads and their disciples from UFO and TD tend to portray these characters in this horrible, weird, outlandish manner that's almost a bit "self-inserty". It's like the whole deal with littleshit, except it's still kicking after all these years.

I'm just saying that the religious era was a horrible experience and I'm glad that it seems to be finally over, but I'm not so excited that they'll probably appear in TH15.5 somehow considering how the EoSD crew somehow stuck around for IaMP, SWR, and Soku.

That aside, it is pretty sad that Raiko didn't get a lot of love because her design and personality is so lovable.

>>16263952
>It doesn't help that the first three Windows games are quite easy, discouraging them from trying harder games
I mean this is logical for new fans. I love SA too but I'm not going to suggest for a newcomer to start on it especially if they are not familiar with the genre.

Also there's nothing stopping someone who likes the first couple windows games from trying things like MoF and DDC or going straight to the more difficult games. If they don't want to try the later games thats their own fault.

>>16265067
I agree that later games should get representation, but unfortunately I think the boat has sailed on a lot of it. With popularity comes content and Touhou simply isn't as big as it once was.

Newhus do get quite a bit of focus in official material like the mangas. There's a lot of stuff about characters like Kasen, Byakuren, Miko, Sumireko, and Mamizou in the official works. Sumireko and Mamizou especially, ZUN either really likes them personally or really wants them to be important in the overall scheme of Touhou.

That being said I do agree with >>16265155 in a sense, I like Byakuren and Miko but I'm kind of sick of the endless circular arguments about them, it's the same thing over and over again.

Mostly I feel bad for Shinmyoumaru, I think her story was really interesting and kind of tragic and she's just shoved aside, I wish she had stuck around as a shrine hanger-on like Suika and Clownpiece just to annoy Reimu. I feel like Junko will probably be ignored as well going forward.

EoSD was a mistake

>>16265037
Well, Windows games are certainly more sophisticated, but that's a good thing: ZUN improved over time. But, by that logic, how about trying his newer titles instead of sticking to his early Windows games? Regardless, billing his first works as "bad" to a newcomer is just biased misinformation. As >>16265068 said, they're plenty of fun and, while the track are usually shorter than Windows tracks, they get great remixes, like this one: https://youtu.be/Ta1Y-pYs5es

>>16265067
I think it mainly has to do with that there's just too many new characters being introduced.
Every new mainline game introduces at least 7 new characters, so with each passing game there will be more and more characters that will be totally forgotten and never mentioned again.
This makes some fans of these characters upset and they most likely take their frustration on the oldest characters that still appears somewhat frequently.

But the worst part is that some new characters gets a lot of attention and love in the official works, while some are just forgotten and never seen again.

>>16265193
That's the problem. I started with IN and then EoSD, but my favorite is SA. That's because I wanted to try the others as well.
As for the religious war, ZUN wants more connected storylines and I certainly prefer these over the oneshot plots of the past, but you need a topic you can expand and the conflict between Miko and Byakuren was a perfect idea. That's why we still get Moon plots, because Lunarians are still there and they're problematic for Gensokyo. With Okuu learning what she's supposed to do, you can't really have a Chireiden crew-centered game. Even if that would be the best thing ever.
>>16265256
The quantity of characters is a problem only if you want it to be a problem and, once you've passed novicehood, you memorize the characters naturally. I was overwhelmed at first as well, but now they just stick. I agree that, even among old characters, there are some who just don't get enough love, but having them in the next game/fighter would be even better than the usual folks we've seen countless times.

>>16263484
hahaha, what the fuck is Mokou to the beauty of Kaguya? Kaguya a love princess, deep elgendary beauty unmatch by all. she the helen of troy, the aphrodite of greece, the maiden of the moon. moko, she the whore of babylon, the catamite of egypt, the stink, the smell, the disgust of the DOG. DOG Mokou is,s he mangy mutt need to be but down and put to the dog bpund so she be sleeped. moko, dont make me laugh, wha a pig, wha a bafoon.Kaguya, oh my Kaguya, she is the beauty, the grace, the intellect, she the lunarian goddess, th earth goddess, she bring a nation togethe,r mokoONLY DESTRY, a slut unfit, not even the lowest male fuck her, her vagina rotting away, but nadeko, she a oure perfect wife, she an ideal of all, Kaguya foreve rbe the best touhou, mooko forever be the worst

>>16263438
Touhou is a tumblr-reddit game.

I don't think you people like touhou any more.

>>16265323
And there's no problem with liking the older games either. I love games like SA but my favorite is still IN. I don't think there's a problem with preferring the other games inherently. It's just bad when that's all you care about since there are plenty of nice things in the other games too. People kind of blame everything on fans of older games and that's a bit unfair

One of the ways to make a universe feel cohesive is to bring back characters and involve them, but I can definitely see it getting old.

>I love to read rants about things that I like
Are you a masochist or a really patient person?

>>16265940
I think the blame is also due to the focus on making mainly EoSD fanon material by fanwork creators and on having mainly EoSD-themed dicussions by fans. I say EoSD but it can also be applied to PCB.
As I said, I certainly prefer these "expanded storylines" over the oneshot plots we used to have, where the plot seemed too much of an excuse, but I can see why people might be bored of Byakuren vs Miko by now: AoCF would be the best game to have them step back from the scene. Even if I desperately want a game with Seiga and I feel she won't show up without the other Taoists. But who knows, maybe she'll appear paired with Kasen instead.
>>16265943
I like it too, as long as it's not 4chan's "You're wrong because fuck you you're retarded kys" usual shit.

>>16265943
I think of myself as a patient person, might be a vanilla switch. I kinda got myself thinking that having blind love towards something you like is a bad thing, and that it's fun to poke at the negatives once in a while.

I should probably mention that I do dismiss some rants if they're poorly worded, poorly constructed, or just "the usual".

Kudos thread

>>16265943
There's nothing wrong with getting a different perspective, and if it's a well-written rant, it can make for an enjoyable read no matter what your stance on the matter is.

This argument's true nature is pretty much about newer fans upset that newer characters aren't as loved as older ones.
Which shouldn't matter because the main casts post-MoF (Mountain Gods, Buddhists, Taoists) have gotten almost just as much exposure in canon as older ones save Eientei.

>>16266408
Even if they got more exposure in canon, there's still the problem that many people consider them "not as important as" the ones from the first Windows games. Also there are still characters from the newer games that didn't get much exposure, like the Underground folks, Koishi aside, the DDC cast, the LoLK cast (but this is excusable, since it's really new), the technically old PoFV cast or really, the "minor" Buddhists and Taoists who got left out of the whole religion war business.
Don't understand the "save Eientei" though: it has IN, PoFV (Reisen and Tewi), LoLK, the Bougetsushou trilogy, SWR (Reisen), ULiL (Reisen and...Mokou kinda counts?). That's a lot of canon.

>>16266544
I think he meant Eientei has gotten the most exposure, but a lot of new characters have as much exposure in official works as the older characters that aren't EET

>>16266544
>many people consider them "not as important"
Who cares?

>underground
If there was ever a reason to go back to the underground.
Yuugi appears at times in WaHH manga, and you forgot Utsuho who even appeared in Soku. Satori isn't even allowed to leave the underground.
>DDC
Who? Shinmyoumaru is a playable in ULiL, Seija got her own game, other than that, the first 3 bosses and instruments are basically irrelevant in the same category as nobodies like Wriggle, Rumia, Mystia, the Prismrivers, Letty, Lily, Medicine, Kisume, Yamame, Parsee, or Hatate. And you usually see the people who like those characters accept that they aren't likely to appear often in anything other than cameos.

>Buddhists and Taoists who got left out
Yes, even characters of the same cast or groups get left out, this isn't new, it happened to Flan (who doesn't much reason to appear ever anyway), Chen&Ran (who only exist through Yukari in games as either spells or shot type familiar), or Yuuka (doesn't count), Medicine (possibly the queen of irrelevant Touhou characters), Iku, Tenshi, Eiki (as even Komachi appears more than her), Aki Sisters and Hina.


Point is, not every single character will been given an equal amount of exposure and development. Getting angry about that and attacking characters that are developed and fans of those characters is rather stupid.

The best you and anyone can do is wait for something like Phantasmagoria or a new fighting game to happen.

>>16266958
>The best you and anyone can do is wait for something like Phantasmagoria or a new fighting game to happen.
And then we'll have a different group of whiners to deal with.

>>16266958
Fuck that. Playable Banki when? Imagine the possibilities!

>>16267010
ZEONG MODE GO!

Or focus separates her head so it can be an independent shooter or hitting a target from another angle!

It'd be just so cool

I'm pretty sure Subterranean Animism is extremely popular though. And UFO.

>>16263438
EOSD characters are disproportionately popular doujin subjects compared to characters from other games. I don't think this is a problem per se, but I think those characters are massively oversaturated and their stories have been mined for every ounce of material they could possibly supply. TH07 and TH08 are also extremely popular, but I don't resent that as much because I think those characters and backstories are a lot more fun and represent Touhou at its best.

>>16263952
> discouraging them from trying harder games, and that newcomers get told nonsense like "PC98 isn't canon".

If anything, newbies would be more put off by challenging games which would discourage them from trying the easier ones in the series. And PC-98 isn't canon.

My 3 favorite 2hu are suika, youmu and suwako.

I got into 2hu in 2006 when I was 16. I can't get into brand new 2hus. The games are fine but the 2hus are weak, except recycled ones and playable characters. Either zun has dropped the ball with character creation or I'm just old.

>>16267461
youre old

My favourite 2hu is ZUN
He is a genius.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkUf6L0_NSk

>>16264600
>There's also a very recent one at 2016 LA Anime Expo (it's on MotK) where he said "it's canon", but there has been a bit of debate about what "canon" meant. You can thank moonrunes.
Yeah anyone who watched the recordings and knows some japanese (and even people who don't) agree that the question was misinterpreted. What came through was essentially asking whether they were official Touhou games, which duh.

>Still, the fact that past characters recognize each other is enough proof.
It depends on what people mean by "canon" in the first place. Any details about the setting back then are entirely gone, and nothing about those works have survived to the point where you can easily argue it wasn't just a recycled idea. Things like Makai, Yuuka, and Alice, have simply rebooted altogether. Even if ZUN, today, unambiguously stated "PC-98 is canon" for whatever reason, it's vacuous if its aspects aren't ever written into modern Touhou. I have to question the motivations of people who want a "canon" label without anything meaningful behind it.

It should also kept in mind that the series isn't a rock where every point in its history is equally weighted, because the writing and ideas have history and evolved over time. "When there's a contradiction, take the latest work" is just a specific case for the more general tendency that the further down the chain something is last referred to, the less consideration it should be given. Despite being written forever ago, EoSD is still actively relevant today, even if many aspects about it have been rewritten or tweaked.

>>16265193
>I wish she had stuck around as a shrine hanger-on like Suika and Clownpiece just to annoy Reimu
Suika actually didn't even stick around the shrine. This was entirely a fandom thing that picked up too much momentum to stop.

>>16263952
>first three Windows games are quite easy
Bullshit. PoDD and LLS were easier than EoSD.