/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>1583378
How is that a VN?

>non-Japanese VN that don't suck ass?
Keep dreaming.

>>1583378
Yeah, they're called SCUMM point and click adventures.

littlewi- oh wait.

DNd: Poisoned was pretty good, if you like yaoi AND Death Note.

>>1583396

>Pic completely unrelated
>How is that a VN?

Sprung! was totally rad

>>1583412
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFffffffffffff...not again.

>>1583447
>Sprung!
>totally rad

I found an archive apparently dedicated entirely to visual novels originally created in English.

I downloaded Flower Rabbit ( http://www.renai.us/game/flowerrabbit.shtml ) , but the art is suspiciously too good to be true, so I'm wondering if it was either stolen from somewhere or just translated?

>>1583473
HA HA problem solved, yeah, it's by a Japanese dude. He translated it and submitted it to Ren'ai himself so it's not stolen. No wonder.

Is it possible to create a good gaijin VN? What would be the most important requisites to make it good?

>>1583560
1) Good artwork
2) Good story
3) Original idea for plot
4) Don't try to be Nasu

Decent writers seem to be a dime a dozen, but nobody here can draw to save their life, so just give up already.

>>1583473
>the art is suspiciously too good to be true
Are you blind?

>The thing of the bus that you tried to use that has already been given up is heard from her though you were on the way by going home.
Sounds brilliant.

>>1583560

#1 is the art can't be shit. This is already near impossible. I mean, let's be honest, the art for F/SN isn't even that good, but gaijin can't even manage that much.

Honestly it can have zero music and a generic, mediocre story. As long as the character art was decent I would probably deem it a decent gaijin VN.

So:

1) Decent art. I don't even care if the backgrounds are just stolen stock photos or whatever. No shitty out of perspective ugly ass backgrounds, though.

2) Competent grasp of the fucking English language. I can't believe how hard this actually is for people who are apparently trying to write in English. Here's a clip from one I just downloaded from Ren'ai:

>I feel little sad; instead of that, I'm just cheered him up and said I'd love to see how cool he would be. It's feel better than drowned in sadness.

These aren't just typos- this terrible grammar is consistent for the entire thing. Or at least the entire prologue that I rapid-fire clicked through.

3) A decent story. Doesn't even have to be original or innovative. Let's be honest, most Japanese VNs don't have mind blowingly amazing stories, either. Just something competent enough to keep my brain from hemorrhaging out my tear ducts.

>>1583574
>Decent writers seem to be a dime a dozen
For a given value of "decent".

>>1583589
Have you seen how bad 99% of gaijin are at drawing? Anything that manages to even get the eyes on halfway right is suspect of being 11-made.

>>1583574
>4) Don't try to be Nasu

Can you explain this one please?

>>1583574

No.

Just because you fags circlejerk about your writefaggotry doesn't mean it's any good.

Also most VNs are horribly badly written.

http://www.katawa-shoujo.com/

>>1583378
What is that game and why am I instantly disgusted by it?

>>1583673
agreed.

by Western standards, a lot of visual novels are inherently unpublishable due to a lack of good writing, VN format or not.

inb4nitpick about VNs not being novels, that doesn't mean you can excuse awfully bad writing with redundant phrases like "she turned to leave", "I smiled at her" &c.

>>1583673
Huh? When have I ever...

Yeah, most VNs are horribly badly written. But judging by the number of intelligibly written posts on /jp/ as compared to other boards, and judging by our age/education, I'm guessing that the average /jp/edo can do better than that. Sorry if I somehow hit a nerve.

>>1583663
No pseudo-philosophical bullshit, please. Save that for your Ethics 101 class. It doesn't make your work any DEEPer.

>>1583696
I doubt that being articulate in general on an anonymous image board means anything when it comes to writing actual prose and not some variation of [meme].

I was following the progress of this game for a while, but I don't know if it's still in development or what

>>1583715
sauce?

>>1583720
ffs, the name's right in the title bar.

http://community.livejournal.com/danshikinshi/

Most VNs that look like they'll be decent are never fucking finished. Lazy fucking gaijin. (DAAAAAAAANNNN!!!!)

>>1583684

>>1583696

I didn't even notice you were a tripfag. The "you" in my post was vaguer than that. I get easily angry at people that say good litterature is easier to achieve than good drawing.

Good writing is fucking hard. Bad writing just shows less to the untrained eye, so people call whatever decent writing.

But it isn't.

I'm done raging.

>>1583746
wow, you are my hero, anon. was talking about this the other day with a bunch of friends, all came to the same conclusion.

it's easier to pick out bad art than it is bad writing.

The level of idiocy in this thread is baffling. "Gaijins can't draw characters, their background sucks and oooh their art in general is horrible because only the Japs are good at it"

Here's why there are no western VN that are any good:
There is no fucking market for it here. Kinda like how Japanese companies never bother to translate it because it wouldn't sell.
The rest is pretty much fucking common sense: Only a few select people buy your shit -> no investors -> very little starting money -> not enough money to hire decent story writers/artist/anyone -> shitty/horribly written/badly drawn western VN.

>>1583840
Since when were we talking about commercial games?

I must agree that it's easier to spot shitty artwork compared to shitty writing, but then again, writing is used for many different things besides "creative" writing (essays, manuals, newspapers, advertisements, legal documents), whereas drawing is most commonly used for creative expression (sure, there's technical illustrations.. but what else?)

People nowadays spend so much time reading unimpressive writing that they forget that good writing exists. Joyce Carol Oates and Edgar Allan Poe are total strangers to some people, and what an awful tragedy that is. It really proves that you can't miss what you don't know.

>>1583840
And yet the majority of Japanese artists do high quality work purely as a hobby. See: Pixel.

Basically Americans are lazy shits who need money to do anything worth anything.

what about the touhou VN? hurr

>>1583961
it's not really that Americans are lazy, but rather the artistic environment gives no confidence to the average person that they are capable of artistic expression. Artists in the US are shroud in a cloud of mystical ability. They are strange people who explore sophisticated (confusing) concepts by creating artwork that common people don't quite understand. There is so much mysticism involved with making art that from the beginning, people just assume that they "can't draw" or "can't paint." That's a dangerous attitude towards art making to assume one cannot even take the first step towards creation.

On the other hand, in Japan, Korea, and China, the attitude towards drawing is "if I keep trying, I can get better" or "anyone can draw if they try" or "it is possible for me to become good at drawing."

Americans think it is impossible because it requires effort. The Japanese think it is possible, but only if one puts in the effort.

>good writing
>Edgar Allan Poe

>>1584397

Or rather the japanese are usually satisfied with lower quality.

That is why the same characterisation clichés are being recycled forever in both commercial and doujin stories. Because it's a demographic that got this kind of shit shoved so far down their throat that they wouldn't be able to see quality if it edged closer to carve a hole between their eyes.

Most of their production, be it doujin or commercial, is just more of the same, and shit eaters like it because it's pretty and familiar - comforting.

Japanese creators feel more welcome to try because they know that as long as they recycle those cliches, they'll have an audience.

>>1584397Americans think it is impossible because it requires effort. The Japanese think it is possible, but only if one puts in the effort.
It would be more accurate (and fit with the rest of your post) to say that Americans assume that it requires innate ability/talent, and that you can never get there with practice, so why bother?

It's partially the fault of schools IMO. In most of Asia art is a pretty large part of the curriculum and they TEACH people that they can achieve artistic merit if they practice. In America we cut the budget for art first thing, and since education in general gets little financial support there are hardly any art programs anywhere in America. American students never get taught the basics of art, or that they can become good at it with practice.

>>1584397
This is what I call the "Art Club Effect".

There's a big bold line between the common people and the "amazing artists" that if you cross it, you're bound to be a magnificant person. (Did you just reword what the post said?)

It's better to ease someone into drawing (if I'm thinking correctly, maybe not) not by showing them a really well drawing but instead, the lineart first, then some coloring, then finally the final product. Building up instead of just showing them the results is how it works.

Either that, or get the person to draw a limb 100+ times.

>>1584434
Same thing with math and science, unfortunately.

Remember kids: There is no such thing as natural talent. You have to work hard to become good at something.

Look. I've said it a million times whenever this subject comes up: IF YOU CAN"T DRAW YOU CAN'T MAKE A VN.

Those who can draw want to draw comics or get paid to do it for commercial stuff. And outside of the pros, have you seen any fanartists worthy of even a b-grade effort?

Gaijin can't even reach ZUN's level of anatomy and detail.

>>1584434
Most people who "can" draw actually really like to draw and have spent many many hours doing it. It's a skill. It takes practice.

>>1583412
Why? Why does this exist? I mean, Jesus Christ. A living, breathing human being made this. I don't understand how someone could have looked at this and not said "My God, this thing I've created looks fucking retarded." I just don't understand.

>>1584478
There sure as fuck is such a thing as natural talent. But you'll never know if you have any if you don't try.

>>1584434
You must have never experienced what it's like to go to school in "Asia," because art in "Asia" gets 0 funding. Kids buy their own art supplies and kids who can't buy shit can't participate. And of course, it's too confusing or students to buy a pound of feldspar, silica, kaolin, and ball clay to make porcelain so you always end up doing the same goddamn lesson in watercolor or paper clay painting "my favorite day" or "a poster promoting environmentalism."

>>1584484
>I don't understand how someone could have looked at this and not said "My God, this thing I've created looks fucking retarded."

Is this your first day on the internet?

>>1584484
>I don't understand how someone could have looked at this and not said "My God, this thing I've created looks fucking retarded." I just don't understand.

I have the same initial reaction to pictures like that but...

I feel that there are artists who require a certain level of blindness towards their own work to be able to function and progress. Otherwise, if you're a certain kind of person, you will stagnate in a puddle of self-hatred.

Then again, the artist could just be one of those people who is completely bereft of any kind of artistic sense. Or there are such people reassuring them that their art is fantastic.

>>1584534
Your last sentence is probably what happened. Mom, dad, and friends probably told this idiot the usual "looks nice^_^" "looks decent^_^" "looks like something out of sailor moon^_^" "me likie!!"

and so this was born ...

>>1584534
I understand what you're saying. But the problem isn't that the person drew it, it's that they thought it was good enough to put it on the internet.

>>1584553
shame based culture VS guilt based culture.

>>1584553
And I'm saying that's due to the same lack of awareness that allows them to continue drawing. They don't realize at all how horrid their drawings are.

>>1584551
No, it's easy not to be fooled by offhanded comments like that. The people who artists are really deceived by are the ones who put time and effort into commenting on particular aspects of each image that stand out. The ones who also seem to have expressed an ability to evaluate art in other contexts. Those people want to encourage the artist, so they point out what might be seen as good. This leads the artist into thinking that they are good overall, which they really aren't.

>>1583961

Pixel had no deadline to Cave Story. It took five years to perfect. Commercial works do not have this privilege.

>>1584397
The real reason is the individuality thing. Americans think they have to make something unique or innovative, and this is too difficult for beginners so most don't even try. Japs know that it's best imitate skilled people, and only develop your own style when you are already skilled at copying.

>>1583412
I don't get what's wrong with this picture. It looks almost as good as ZUN's art.

>>1583378
sauce on OP picture

Why do you all say that you HAVE to have good art in order to make a VN?

For example, I've seen plenty of westerners who draw better than Ryukishi07, yet his work is very popular and even got it's own anime.

>>1584848
You have no idea how good that shit is compared to the MAJORITY of what gaijin manage to produce. I'm as fucking boggled by it as you are.

Find one gaijin who draws well, writes decently, and has actually fucking finished anything. I think you can count them on one hand, and that's if you can even point me to one in the first place.

PROTIP: No self-respecting Artist outside of Japan would participate in something as stupid as Visual Novels.

>>1584965
>self-respecting artist
Oxymoron?

>>1584965
>No self-respecting Artist outside of Japan
>No self-respecting
>/jp/
You see, this is where we come in.

>>1583378
ITT: 4chan blindness.

1. DO YOU FUCKS KNOW HOW MANY ABSOLUTE SHIT JAPANESE ART THERE IS OUT THERE? You just leive in your nice little cloudcuckooland where the 1% that is awesome gets reposted constantly, and then you go to dA and pick on random tards.

2. THERE ARE EXCELLENT WERSTERN ARTISTS THAT WORK FOR FREE. They are just clever enough not to draw LOLOLOXDMANGASTYLE, because it is a) extremely hard to beat the Elevens at their game and b) nobody fucking cares whetner you can be original nihongo moe moe^^. The only people who DO care are horrible weeaboos with no sense of taste, hence dA circlejerks.

C. DRAWING MANGA IS NOT HARD. There are tons of people on the internet that draw easily as well as any manga artist, you just say "lol shitsux" because it doesn't look like generic manga art. And before the old "lol cartoon = no idea of anatomy" argument gets rolled out, you fucks obviously have some switch in your brain that refuses that kind of art hacking when it's from Japan and thus awesome by default.

>>1584990
Exactly.

Through sheer, pathetic, socially inept obsession, I am sure a few of us can learn to draw and cobble together a VN.
And then cry when we realize that was the only remotely meaningful accomplishment we've made in our entire lives.

All you people who say "all western artists suck, only japan can do good art" have apparently never browsed at random through pixiv or artist homepage listings.

There are just as many shitty japanese artists as there are western ones.

Then again the problem with so many western artists is that they spend all their time trying to be japanese instead of trying to make something original...

>>1585017
>The only people who DO care are horrible weeaboos with no sense of taste

What board are you posting on again?

>>1585017
Please, feel free to link me to all these amazing non-weeaboo VNs with amazing art that I am just not open-minded enough to truly appreciate the value of.

Lay it on me, fool.

>>1585039
If oyu think /jp/ has good taste, you sir are severely deluded. Being elitist != having taste.

>>1585051
People were saying that there were no good western artists. I say they exist, even though they don't make VNs.

>>1585033
The thing is, the quantity of decent art is far higher in Japan than in America.

We're talking anime style, not who can draw the best realistic watercolors of birds or Disney cartoons or furries. Nobody's trying to say the Japanese are better at every artistic concept ever.

If it's so fucking easy, why can't gaijin bullshit a few good animu pictures whenever they want? If the argument is they respect themselves too much or aren't pathetic weeaboo, then you are on the wrong board.

The argument here isn't "find a few Japanese artists who suck". It's "find a gaijin artist who's good". And yet I see very few examples of gaijin artists who are good AND HAVE FINISHED A VISUAL NOVEL. Just "well visual novels are stupid anyways" or "who wants to draw like a filthy weeaboo shit's too easy"

... are we really that rare?

>>1585136
Brotip: Skim is Korean-American.

>>1585136
The preview of No Boys Allowed had such piss-poor writing that it misses the other point of a Visual NOVEL entirely though.

>>1585136

Yes.

We could probably all scrounge together a list of maybe 50 gaijin artists max who're really good at this weeaboo shit.

Compared to how many random Japanese hobbyists who just decide "oh hey I'm going to draw epic CGs just because I like to"?

If this shit is so easy, why doesn't every weeaboo dA fag manage to do it?

>>1585100
>If it's so fucking easy, why can't gaijin bullshit a few good animu pictures whenever they want?

You must not have finished reading my post, because I already addressed this:
>Then again the problem with so many western artists is that they spend all their time trying to be japanese instead of trying to make something original...

Western artists are too busy trying to be anime to actually get art basics down. This is why we get OEL series like Aoi House. Because the artist cares about nothing but being anime.
(Seriously, I picked it up on whim at a bookstore one time, and seeing an original english work with Japanese in the title, read right to left, and had characters call each other things like "onii-chan" just hurt my head. Goddamnit, people, can't you come up with your own shit? Do you have to be Japanese that badly?)

>>1585155
It's genetic now?

Part of it the disparity in the doujin work quality is the different attitudes we have towards the labour force. Maybe I'm being stereotypical, but Americans are typically more carefree in chasing their dreams. If you actually end up a journalist, it's very difficult to come home and write as a hobby, as opposed to if you go and slave away for Mitsubishi or something. And of course we tend to see only the best of the Japanese stuff that's made.

About a million or so posts ago (literally), there was a big flood of people who started doujin VNs. Maybe when the AND demo came out? So the motivation is there. Just that most of us, like me, can't write, draw, compose, or do anything else productive. And Heart's Content stole my setting, those fuckers. I grew up there, you didn't, I'm glad your project fell apart...

I admit I tried my hand at it, and I have a lot of respect for the Katawa Shoujo people. There's metric tons of work being put in there, and it may not actually suck. I still think they're going to try and sell it, though.

76018 words, whee. I'm going to try and finish before I get my PhD in 2013, but no promises.

>>1585211
>Heart's Content stole my setting

While researching this, I found out hat those guys are affiliated with the chick that made Ren'ai Blogger - and that they're making a sequel.

I CANNOT FUCKING STOP LAUGHING

>>1585244
...

>>1585211

>And Heart's Content stole my setting, those fuckers.

I feel you, bro. I know I'll almost certainly never actually make anything, and if I did it would have to have some fucking minimalistic stick figure art or something, but I'm always thinking up shit. Then some thread about people making VNs comes along and some fucker is totally stealing my concept. Then they don't even make anything with it! I mean, goddamn, go ahead and steal it if you'll actually make it, but make your own vaporware.

What makes English VNs laughable, besides the fact they lack artists, are the ATTROCIOUS story ideas which are embarrasing amaglams of Japanese VN content.

But even that is okay, as long as someone knows how to fucking DRAW, I don't mean draw shitty cartoon characters.The backgrounds can be photoshop'd images from photo sites and the soundtracks can be lifted from other games. We'll live without voices.

>>1585182

It was short, but I thought it was pretty good.

>>1585182

it's short, but it isn't shit
Here it is for you to play it
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=E5P91ADT

Good western game of Viusal Novel proportions: Facade.

The Answer.

>>1586470
hahahaha

renpy is such shit.