/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Take your /a/ shit back to where it belongs.

How did this kill Battler? Battler just got hit by the overlord cats who threw a universe at him

>>12141192
except this doesn't belong on /a/ you retard

Witches exist, magic is real.

>>12141191
Angie became the next theater goer, she got the power from Featherine and said fuck your shit Bern

Is Tsukimoto using those purplesneakers on the OP?

Ping Pong thread

>>12141263
Dumbass.

>>12141247
>>12141261
That explains everything and Maria was so sexy

>>12141308
I want to fuck Maria so bad.

Pretty sure someone has yet to find a perfect explanation that explains everything including obscure stuff such as why someone painted the safe combination on the wall, why Sakutaro was on the boat, and which involves Jessica dying alone because of her asthma and spoon-dissolving poison.

>>12142667
everything that wasn't confirmed in red is an illusion. That should solve most of those problems.

Is there such a thing as a Rokkenjima map for minecraft?

>>12141193
Tey actually explain this in that exact scene. Battler can become imune to magic by using endless 9 when he is the opponent of a witch. Since he fights Bernkastel, this makes him completly immune to magic, the only thing that can damage him are unsolved riddles, since those manifest as stakes, blades, guns or even dragons if you get hit by them, this happens because they are equivalent to acnoleging the witch.

It's been what now? 3 years?
Fuck R07, 3 years and I'm still butthurt.

If only his boyfriend; BT; hadn't died, we would have gotten the real ending.
I wonder if R07 is ever going to give us the real ending.

>>12143899
Fuck that, I want real answers R07, you hack.

>>12145427
He already forgot everything about this story.

>>12145427
Maybe in the manga.

>>12145432
You'll never get answers.
Umineko is a giant middle finger constantly nagging you about the fact that you'll never a straight answer.

And if you do, you'll have a bad ending where your character is insane and kill people.

>>12146640
The game had so much personality death focus, that I've decided to just claim everyone realized they were assholes and changed personality to kind people and moved to hawaii.

That way they all "died" on the island, and we still follow the bad rules the game set up. (If anyone asks about the jawbone or such from Maria, it was just not a detective stating it so it was lies)

>>12147338
What's your explanation for Eva surviving the conference and Ange angsting over her oniichan?

>>12147352
All lies due to no detectives near them.

Did this even ever get a real ending?

>Are Featherine,Lambdadelta,Beatrice/meta-world characters real?
Yes. The fact that Ikuko didn't age when Ange met Tohya is proof of the existence of witches.
We don't really know what is actually written in the stories which were published on the internet by Tohya or the two stories by Beatrice.
The whole meta in them could not even be present and the witches just hang in the story because they can.
>>12142667
I'm more curious as to why the person wrote the safe combination when he/she/whoever it was/ never did so in any of the other games.

>>12148853
愛がなければ視えない。

>>12142667
>>12148861
The person who wrote the safe combination on the wall is almost without a doubt Yasu. All the evidence points to him/her as being the only person who'd have knowledge of it to begin with.

As for why it was written, it was most likely meant for Eva, as the heir to Beatrice's fortune. George's death tip seems to suggest his life was given in exchange (whether it was Eva's intention or not):
>His corpse was found in the mansion's parlor. The weapon is assumed to be a gun or a spear-type object.
>In exchange for his soul, the witch gave 8 numbers.
>07151129
>If you say it, a small Golden Land will be opened.

Concerning the reason why it never reappears in the other episodes, I speculate it's because EP3 features the only Beatrice-controlled board in which the epitaph is solved.

>>12148902
>is almost without a doubt Yasu
There's no proof and no motive to do so.
You just assume it's Yasu by eliminating who it could be. Everyone is dead or with Battler so it's Yasu.
>In exchange for his soul, the witch gave 8 numbers.
I personally think it's the other way around.
George is the one who died and put those numbers.
He died and put the numbers.

Ep 5 is also solved but it's pretty pointless since people will dismiss anything in that episode because Beatrice wasn't in charge of that episodes.

>>12149833
>You just assume it's Yasu by eliminating who it could be. Everyone is dead or with Battler so it's Yasu.
It's called deductive reasoning. It has nothing to do with assumptions.

>I personally think it's the other way around.
>George is the one who died and put those numbers.
>He died and put the numbers.
I can't tell if you're being intentionally ironic, but in your own words:
>There's no proof and no motive to do so.

Furthermore, there's nothing to suggest that George would have any knowledge of the numbers to begin with.

>>12148861
>>12148853
So in the magic ending, everyone really did come back to life? Physically and everything?

It's not like Maria's magic where she was just imagining things

>>12146640
This. There's a reason Battler didn't want to go back to his old self.

>>12150079
It's somewhat ironic.
No one, other than Yasu, has any reason to do it.
And there is no proof of Yasu even being anywhere.

I somewhat think it was George since the red only confirms his death, not if the moment he saw Shannon was when he died.

And the whole ''the witch exchanged his soul for the numbers'' makes me think that his death gave those numbers which seems to me as though he was the one who placed it rather than Yasu.
Why? I have no fucking clue. I just find putting everything on Yasu undermines how it happened.

>>12150997
In the magic opening, everyone is still dead.
What happened is this: in ep 8, Ange decided that people should not find out what is in the diary. By doing that, she would make people revive in memory alone. As such, she understood what Tohya wanted to show her and moved on with her life.
In the magic end, Ange accepts to move on with her life. This is how she defeats Bernkastel.
Bernkastel represents the collective of mystery fan who want to solve the mystery. Individuals are goats and the most poignant scene is where Bern wears a goat mask.

In the trick end, Ange is seen to be with Erika to search for the truth.
Erika is Bernkastel's piece and it's easy to assume that when Ange kills her bodyguard to find the only truth, she becomes a tool mystery fan who want the answers.

Any scene outside of the island that has meta never existed or happened.
All events in ep 4 never took place and Ange even mentions in ep 6 to Featherine to stop using her in her stories. This explains why Ange died on the island. It was a warning from Tohya of what would happen to her if she kept searching the truth.
And in the trick end, Ange is seen with with meta Erika. As such, we can assume that it's a fake end. The magic end has no meta in it.

I also found something somewhat interesting while rereading ep 8.

I still don't know if it means something.

>>12152280
>And there is no proof of Yasu even being anywhere.

Other then the answer to a large part of 3 is that by having both Shannon and Kanon "die" she was able to run around without anybody knowing she was there?

Like, holy crap it's a puzzle, the clues are there. Solve it.

>I somewhat think it was George since the red only confirms his death, not if the moment he saw Shannon was when he died.

How did George know that number. It has nothing to do with him, it's Battler's Birthday and the day Yasu solved the Epitaph, what exactly would be the point of him putting it up there? And why?

Sometimes i wonder why there are so many Ange+Amakusa pics...
not that having a friend in her life would do Ange any harm (implied its the magic ending and Amakuza survives), quite the contrary probably, but i don't remember her to ever show much interest in him, unlike Jessica or George, who made their interest in Shannon / Kanon quite obvious.

>>12152785
He's very friendly with Ange and he's the only guy she interacts with any period if time

In all honesty it's kind of creepy since he's in his 30s or so.

>>12152788
Though the age difference would be the same with Battler and Beatrice...

>>12152286
Rudolf's and Kyrie's riddles are also related to Higurashi. Maybe this is Ryu subtly acknowledging that Kyrie is Nomura and Rudolf wasted Koizumi to kick off Takano's downfall? Bravo Ryukishi, such genius.

>>12152280
>all events in ep 4 never took place

That's fucking depressing. So what other episodes didn't really take place?

Also what about Battler? Was the Battler from the beginning the real Battler, the meta-Battler is the real Battler?

I like Umineko but the author needs to just confirm all this shit.

>>12152937
Can you into reading comprehension?

None of the episodes "really" took place.

>>12152821
Uh, what. No. Yasu is 19, there's only a one year difference.

>>12152937
It's meant to be both fictional and "real."

Meta-Battler is both a symbolic- representation of Tohya remembering Yasu and Battler himself getting pulled into the witches game at the same time.

I always wondered how George and Jessica would have reacted if Yasu confessed to them.
They wouldn't have been very pleased with the new situation, that's clear. Question is, would they understand yasu's motive for doing what they did and forgive her for "cheating" on them?

>>12153677
Well Jessica and Kanon never dated, so it there wasn't any cheating.

First episode seem to be the easiest one to explain. It is one of Yasu's mystery novels based on the information Yasu has gathered on the island. Yasu sets Battler as the detective in the story, with the clear intent to hand the story over to the real Battler to see if he can solve it.

To me this is part of what episode two shows. The written story and the meta world that implies that in the real world Battler was trying to solve the mystery and not working on the epitath.

After that it is kind of a mess since the motives of the stories get so confusing. Is Battler writing the stories to hide the truth or to show it? The ending of episode 8 seem to hint that his desire is to hide it, but also to calm his sister down.

>>12153688
still he never told her the truth.

>>12153688
Dating someone with Kanons furniture attitude would be... complicated at least.

>>12153910
>Is Battler writing the stories to hide the truth or to show it?

Tohya's at least partly doing the same thing Yasu did. Write mysteries and ask people to solve them to see if anybody could understand the truth.

I think also part of it is to sort of pay tribute to Yasu. Beatrice is portrayed much more kindly in 3, shown as someone who can be "redeemed" for her sins, and 4 also portrays her as much sympathetic. Kinzo is the one who does the bulk of the murders.

Of course, it's hard to tell what the narratives in the message bottles and forgeries contain in universe in comparison to what we read.

I doubt that Legend and Turn as Yasu wrote them have any of the elements of the game between Battler and Beatrice, same with Tohya's stories... so we get less and less of the "In universe" stories as the story goes on to the point where I'm pretty sure 7 and 8 don't exist as stories in the Umineko universe.

Umineko ended after 1st episode and everyone fucking died.

Okay so:

Battler and others are real. They were alive in the magic ending. Battler somehow got Endless Nine somehow for some reason.

Episode 4 and the ones before that didn't really happen.

There is no such thing as a magical Beatrice, only Yasu.

Battler's sin is forgetting his promise for Shannon.

Tohya really is Featherine and she can use magic.

Bernkastel and Lambdadelta are Rika and Takano.

Only episodes 5-8 took place.

Amakusa was a traitor all along.

Eva was actually a nice mother.

Ange (somehow) became a theatergoing witch just because.

>>12155317
Not quite.

>>12155360
Hey man, that's my interpretation so far. If you got an opinion, I can respect that too.

>>12155317
>Episode 4 and the ones before that didn't really happen.

The gameboard events are fictional, what the metaworld is isn't explained.

>There is no such thing as a magical Beatrice, only Yasu.

Yes, in the real world Beatrice was just Yasu playing witch. Meta stuff, who knows.

>Battler's sin is forgetting his promise for Shannon.

Yup.

>Tohya really is Featherine and she can use magic.
Feathering is both Ikuko's author avatar and a power witch, at the same time. Umineko!

>Only episodes 5-8 took place.
The gameboards on them were still fictional, the meta stuff is again it's own thing.

>Amakusa was a traitor all along.
Probably.

>Eva was actually a nice mother.
She started with good intentions but by the end of her life really was just bitter about it all.

She *could* have been a good mother, if Ange had opened up a little, if Eva hadn't taken a little girl's reactions so personally, and so on.

>Ange (somehow) became a theatergoing witch just because.
She became an author.

>>12155317
>Bernkastel and Lambdadelta are Rika and Takano.

Forgot this one, Bern is Rika, Lambda is not Takano.

>>12155023
>so we get less and less of the "In universe" stories as the story goes on to the point where I'm pretty sure 7 and 8 don't exist as stories in the Umineko universe.
I would even go further and speculate that episode 7 is designed as a false lead (I recall someone saying Bernkastel's game was "the most cruel" or something, so I interpret it as "full of lies mixed with the truth"): people are led to believe that Yasu hides the fact that (s)he's both the culprit and Shkannon, when Shkannon is actually a separate entity who hides only the fact that (s)he's both Kanon and Shannon. In that way, Shkannon would be a perfect meta-scapegoat for the real culprit(s), and I think umineko was designed with that in mind. When you think about Natsuhi in EP5, she's pretty much what I claim Shkannon to be on a larger scale (hiding something and because of that something, everyone thinks she's the culprit).

So, if that hypothesis is correct, it would be pretty much clear that the Yasu/Shkannon x Battler love story is never hinted at in the 4 first episodes (except for Battler groping Shannon in EP1 and she blushes, which is hardly a hint), so assuming it's a complete invention is pretty safe.

In the end, it's particularly ironic that I'm stuck in the same state as Battler in EP5, since I want to believe Shkannon is not the culprit, but I don't have any proof, and I would have to find a better explanation to refute this shit.
Anyway, I don't like thinking R07 simply messed up, since Higurashi was so carefully planned, and EP8's final riddle is pretty much an implied insurance from R07 that he can think of an overly complicated logically solvable riddle and that umineko is the same in that sense.

>>12155073
How about trying to solve EP1 with only hints found in it?

http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Answer_to_the_Golden_Witch

>>12155317
>>12155370
>>12155373
>Battler and others are real. They were alive in the magic ending. Battler somehow got Endless Nine somehow for some reason.
Not sure what you mean by this. The Ushiromiya family members were real people who were, with the exception of Eva, all killed in the Rokkenjima incident. Battler is also killed metaphorically, with his amnesiac body living on as a different individual. It is up to the reader's interpretation whether or not the meta-world characters are real or not.

>Episode 4 and the ones before that didn't really happen.
Arguably, none of the episodes really happened. Even the segments featuring 1998 Ange are of questionable authenticity. The incidents taking place on the various game boards only exist as possibilities in Rokkenjima's "black box". The meta-world events are, again, subject to reader interpretation.

>There is no such thing as a magical Beatrice, only Yasu.
There are several different Beatrices in the game, two of which can be directly linked to Yasu. Firstly, there is Yasu!Beatrice, essentially Yasu in drag and possibly full delusion mode. The second one, meta!Beatrice (the one against whom meta!Battler is facing off) can be considered to be the meta-world manifestation of Yasu!Beatrice, combined with the various legends and superstitions concerning the witch on Rokkenjima. For instance, the Beatrice witnessed walking around the mansion in EP2 and the one confronting Battler in EP4 are Yasu!Beatrice. I consider the two Beatrices separate entities as they can be found interacting with each other in EP4 (with meta!Beatrice consoling Yasu!Beatrice after Battler admits to forgetting his sin) and the fact that meta-Beatrice has knowledge of and claims complicity in many of the other characters' struggles (e.g. Natsuhi's internal strife in particular), which Yasu!Beatrice should have little knowledge of.

>>12155428
Kanon is the culprit and faked his death in the boiler room.

Clues (Using only stuff from episode 1)

1. Kanon is the only one who could have given Maria the letter. It's pretty clear that walking to the guesthouse brings you up to the rose garden. How could Kanon have missed Maria? He didn't, he gave the letter to Maria.

2. Kanon and Genji are the most suspicious, they're the ones who "found" the bodies in the first twilight, and the servants were the only ones who would know where the shed key is. Heck, it's even hinted at as the first thing we see Kanon doing is carrying a bunch of gardening materials, he had reason to use the shed *recently* However Genji ends up murdered himself, so even if he's Kanon's accomplice

3. The entire set up with Eva's chain is suspicious. Again we only have Genji and Kanon's word that the chain was ever locked, by the time Battler shows up the chain has already been cut. It's impossible to kill somebody with those stakes period, let alone through a tiny crack. Kanon lied about the chain being cut.

4. His "death" in the boiler room is obviously faked, Golden Butterflys appearing? An obvious lie, the fact that the stake isn't inside him is another hint, and of course we only have Dr. Nanjo's word that Kanon's actually dead.

>>12155455
You would have to take into account the scene with Maria+servants and Battler in the kitchen to deduce that some scenes of the story are fake and that only Battler has an objective point of view.
But since Maria and the servants are a majority, doesn't that mean that Battler is the one who is crazy and who can't see Beatrice?

>>12155447
>Battler's sin is forgetting his promise for Shannon.
Technically, it's not keeping the promise, but forgetting it made it worse. meta!Beatrice does say something to the effect of "forgetting the sin is in itself a sin", suggesting that forgetting alone isn't the issue.

>Tohya really is Featherine and she can use magic.
You mean Ikuko, right? Tohya is Battler's amnesiac self. As with all meta-world characters, this one is up to individual interpretation. It depends on whether you feel Featherine is a meta-world representation of Ikuko or if Ikuko is a physical-world representation of Featherine.

>Bernkastel and Lambdadelta are Rika and Takano.
No. Bernkastel is the aggregation of all the Rikas who died in her search for a happy fragment. Note that the last Rika (the one who finally got her happy ending) does not contribute to Bernkastel's being. Lambdadelta's origins are unknown, but she helped grant Takano's wish. The two are not otherwise related.

>Only episodes 5-8 took place.
See previous answer.

>Amakusa was a traitor all along.
This is left intentionally vague. Apart from the fact that it's up in the air just how much of Ange's story actually occurred, Amakusa's true loyalties are subject to Umineko's mantra "without love, it cannot be seen".

>Eva was actually a nice mother.
What is your definition of a "nice mother"? Clearly, she wanted the best for her son, yet George clearly felt she was very suffocating. Furthermore, Ange did not have a very positive opinion of Eva at all. You could say she had the best intentions, but "niceness" is too subjective to gauge. Just settle for saying that, like the others, she is a complex character.

>Ange (somehow) became a theatergoing witch just because.
Maybe. Meta-world subjectivity applies.

>>12155437
>If I should still be writing in ten years or more, I might go and rewrite Umineko all over again.
Will I still be on /jp/ for another shitstorm of theories when that happens?

>>12155472
>You would have to take into account the scene with Maria+servants and Battler in the kitchen to deduce that some scenes of the story are fake and that only Battler has an objective point of view.

The Golden Butterflies scene is the first scene that shows that the narrator is not objective, since the goal of reader is to defeat the witch, they should realize that any magic can't be real.

I'm pretty sure that in Episode 1 at least, the only scenes with a First Person View are Battler, with everything else being Third Person Narration. The Tea Party Narration mixed with the ??? *not* having any shows that the Narrator is most likely Beatrice, Therefore any third person scenes are Beatrice placing her spin on things and can be considered unreliable at best.

(I'm not saying this is easy or even likely for anybody to figure out the first time through. It just is possible to solve the main thrust of EP1 with just EP1.)

>>12155370
>the gameboard events are fictional, the metaworld isn't explained

So all the games are fictional then. But the meta-world can possibly exist?

Here's where I'm confused. There are these different dimensions.

1. The human dimension (where Ange, Amakusa, Okonogi are in the present day/after Rokkenjima accident)
2. The witch/purgatorio/game master dimension (where Battler, Beato, Erika, Lambda all play these mystery games)
3. The ocean of fragments

I think a fragment is a universe into itself? Or maybe a timeline. Different worlds or different timelines. Bernkastel and Lambda go through all these different "worlds" and they can even play with fragments in the palm of their hands.

So is the meta-world inside just one of those fragments? Where is this ocean, inside the witch dimension or outside it? In the City of Books, each book has a world inside it. So each book has a fragment?

The events of the games (which are fictional) affect the meta players are (which can be real) and those events affect stuff in the human dimension.

In the last episode they were defending the Golden Land and all these epic battles took place. But Meta-Battler didn't seem to be any different than regular Battler. They weren't just pieces on a gameboard, they were the real deal (at least Battler, Ange, Bern, and Featherine)

Maria and the others could just be illusions because she did say they were dead.

>>12155455
Kanon COULD have missed Maria.
Remember that at that time storm and rain already had started. Rosa, Battler, George and Jessica searched quite a while for Maria until they actually found her. So Kanon could missed her in the garden.

>>12152780
>Like, holy crap it's a puzzle, the clues are there. Solve it.
I did solve it, I want to hear different opinions from people. People say Yasu did shit but there's no clues yet idiots like you just arrogantly say to solve it
Did you stop thinking and just leave the job to me?

>Other then the answer to a large part of 3 is that by having both Shannon and Kanon "die" she was able to run around without anybody knowing she was there?
Good question but we still don' know what she did or where she was the whole time.

>>12152937
None of the episodes took place.
Ep 1-2 were written by Beatrice on what she thought would happen before the crime took place.
Ep 3-4-5 were written by Tohya with knowledge on what actually happened but not all events match up.
A good example is ep 3 with Eva surviving like post Prime but she kills Battler which didn't happen in Prime.
The events about Ange's past in St. Lucia could be true but there's still a chance it could be bullshit.
It also begs the question if Eva even survived the island considering that ep 4 could simply be a direct continuation of ep 3 rather than the events post Prime considering Ange dies in ep 4 and then Ange tells Featherine to stop using her in her stories.

>>12155750
There's the meta world, the fictional world, the real world and kakera are the union between fictional worlds and multiple worlds since the multiple universe theory is similar to fiction since authors can make whatever variation they want.

>>12156446
>begs the question

>>12155317
Amakusa wasn't a traitor all along, he was just a hired gun who doesn't have much loyalty. If he was told to babysit Ange he would've and if he was told to kill her he would've done so.

>>12156449
<good!>

>>12156449
Sending a person with absolutely NO loyalty after Ange would be dangerous.
She's VERY rich, she could easily bribe him. Combined with the fact that Juuza obviously had an eye on her and could be seduced by her there would have been a big danger she simply turns him to her side, don't you think?

>>12156446
>People say Yasu did shit but there's no clues yet idiots like you just arrogantly say to solve it

Uhh... of course there are clues. Just from Episode 1 alone I pointed out how Kanon has to be the culprit in EP1 just from stuff from that episode alone, and later episodes only add to it.

>Did you stop thinking and just leave the job to me?

You're the one demanding people do all the thinking for you, rather then solve the puzzle you demand other people do it for you.

>Good question but we still don' know what she did or where she was the whole time.

Yes we do. We know that she's the one who put stakes in the bodies, we know George saw her and followed her to the mansion (Where she killed him) We know she killed Dr. Nanjo and spent the rest of the time with Jessica as Kanon.

>The events about Ange's past in St. Lucia could be true but there's still a chance it could be bullshit.

No there isn't. What possible reason would Ange have to lie about her history?

>It also begs the question if Eva even survived the island considering that ep 4 could simply be a direct continuation of ep 3

It isn't. The entire reason the story was presented that way was to make the reader, still thinking about Higurashi, think that the 1998 stuff in 4 was following 3. When in reality there's only one future.

>>12156980
>Just from Episode 1 alone I pointed out how Kanon has to be the culprit in EP1 just from stuff from that episode alone, and later episodes only add to it.
Yes, and?
I seriously don't know what you're trying to say other than point out that there are clues.
I'm saying there is no proof Yasu was involved in ep 3 past the first twilight and you're telling me to find the proof myself. Especially considering the fact that a lot of people claim that Yasu did not know what was going on most of the time in ep 3 considering she couldn't keep her eyes on a single building where the entire family was holded up and didn't notice two of the adults coming out of it and then did not see Eva (or possible someone else) kill Rosa and Maria. Even if placing stakes means she's active, it doesn't show that she knows what is going on which begs the question on what Yasu was actually doing past the first twilight of ep 3.
>We know she killed Dr. Nanjo and spent the rest of the time with Jessica as Kanon.
That's where you're wrong since Beatrice/Yasu is not allowed to kill after the epitaph is solved.
>What possible reason would Ange have to lie about her history?
Tohya wrote ep 4. I don't think Ange dying on the island is part of her history.
>The entire reason the story was presented that way was to make the reader, still thinking about Higurashi, think that the 1998 stuff in 4 was following 3. When in reality there's only one future.
Then it just means even more that if the events in 4 are a continuation of 3, then it is fiction as ep 3 is fiction by Tohya.
However, the one future after Prime is somewhat similar considering Eva survived, same as in ep 3-4 but Ange is not dead but ep 4 is a possible future for Ange if she continues her path as the trick end shows.

>>12155455
>Kanon is the only one who could have given Maria the letter.
Anyone could have gone outside and given her the letter. Hell, Rosa was alone doing jack shit for a long time. Most of the family members were on their own.

>2. Kanon and Genji are the most suspicious, they're the ones who "found" the bodies in the first twilight, and the servants were the only ones who would know where the shed key is
I don't see how finding the murder scene first is grounds for suspicion.

>it's even hinted at as the first thing we see Kanon doing is carrying a bunch of gardening materials
It's also shown that Kanon is a weak fuck and can't hold shit because he's weak. Another clue that perhaps he can't do anything himself. Though with accomplices, it renders the point moot but I wonder if there was a time bodies had to be moved and Kanon was alone.

>he had reason to use the shed *recently*
Good point, he would be the most likely person to have the keys to the shed but any of the master keys can open the shed.
Nor does Kanon have any reason to be in the shed before the events of the murder since it doesn't need any planing.

>Kanon lied about the chain being cut.
There is no proof of Kanon ever lying other than to promote that he is lying based on the fact that there is no objective proof that the chain might have been present before Battler came.
All that is known from Battler point of view is that a room was said to have a chain locking the room and that it was cut as he arrived.

>It's impossible to kill somebody with those stakes period, let alone through a tiny crack.
It is possible for the killer to still be inside the room and leave the chain locked.
You're assuming the killer had to leave the room or be out of the room after putting the chain or killing from the outside.

>>12156563
I don't know where you're getting this from. Amakusa thought of Ange as a moody, rich brat with onii-chan issues, not as a potential love interest.

>>12157412
>I'm saying there is no proof Yasu was involved in ep 3 past the first twilight

Dr. Nanjo's death, George's death, the stakes.

The stakes are Yasu's MO, nobody *but* Yasu could have killed Dr. Nanjo, and pretty much the same with George.

>Especially considering the fact that a lot of people claim that Yasu did not know what was going on most of the time in ep 3 considering she couldn't keep her eyes on a single building where the entire family was holded up and didn't notice two of the adults coming out of it and then did not see Eva (or possible someone else) kill Rosa and Maria.

Yes. Exactly. She wasn't anywhere close to the guesthouse, the fact that Maria was basically told to head out to the rose garden at an appointed time shows this.

>That's where you're wrong since Beatrice/Yasu is not allowed to kill after the epitaph is solved.

Not if she doesn't know the Epitaph has been solved. Because Eva kept it a secret.

>Tohya wrote ep 4. I don't think Ange dying on the island is part of her history.

None of Ange's stuff appeared in the "real world" version of Alliance. Any mention of it was pure meta.

>>12157412
>begs the question

>>12157465
>Anyone could have gone outside and given her the letter.

Show me where there's any clue to anyone else giving Maria the letter.

Kanon's the only one we have any evidence of leaving the mansion or guesthouse between Maria looking for her rose and her being found with the umbrella by Battler.

>I don't see how finding the murder scene first is grounds for suspicion.
It's part of the pattern of suspicious behavior. You can't just take everything in a vaccum.

>It's also shown that Kanon is a weak fuck and can't hold shit because he's weak. Another clue that perhaps he can't do anything himself.
The killer is obviously allowed to have accomplices, Kanon's main one is Genji of course.

>There is no proof of Kanon ever lying other than to promote that he is lying based on the fact that there is no objective proof that the chain might have been present before Battler came.
It's the only answer that makes sense.

They could not have been killed with the chain set, so the chain could not have been set. Therefore those who claim the chain was set are lying.

>It is possible for the killer to still be inside the room and leave the chain locked.

No it's not.

>>12157601
>None of Ange's stuff appeared in the "real world" version of Alliance. Any mention of it was pure meta.
No, you retard. Ange specifically demands that Tohya stop using her in her forgeries.

>>12157632
In a scene which she herself admits could not have happened,

There's pretty much no way Tohya could have known about Ange's history with Maria's diary, her imaginary friends, and all that.

Maybe Ange appeared in some fashion in the in universe Alliance, but it wasn't in the way we read it.

>>12157608
One question remains, ho do you get a weapon shaped like the stakes into a human skull?
You probably would need a hammer to do so, since the stake blades arent very thin and sharp.
And since we saw no other lethal wounds, how could they get the blades into Eva's and Hideyoshi's head?

>>12157871
They were shot and the stake was placed in the entry wound. Should be fairly obvious by now.

>>12157880
Shouldn't there be an exit wound, then?

>>12157898
The sawed off rifles seen in Umineko can't shoot powerfully enough to create an exit wound.

>>12157898
Not necessarily. Might be worth noting that Winchester rifles are old as fuck and did not have nearly as much power as modern firearms.

>>12157917
That family seriously needs to arm up.
But you two are right, i judged from todays rifles, which would have blown the back of Eva's head right away when fired at short distance.

>>12157958
Everyone on the island could be saved if they were americans, armed and had shoot on sight policy towards anyone threatening.
Magic ain't shit when i've got muh desert eagle.

>>12158014
Or if Kinzo and his clan actually followed japanese law which completely bans firearms from private households.
Killing the Ushiromiya family with a stick would have been much more difficult.

Also, a desert eagle is not american.

>>12157608
>Show me where there's any clue to anyone else giving Maria the letter.
Rosa was sleeping and alone.
Anyone could have done it since the rose garden is close to the house.
Kanon just has an excuse to actually go outside.

>t's part of the pattern of suspicious behavior.
No it isn't.

>Kanon's main one is Genji of course.
And Hideyoshi and Eva and might as well.
The killer is allowed to have accomplices but there is little proof to know who those may be so you can literally add anyone to make anything fit and claim they were paid off. There's no evidence needed.

>They could not have been killed with the chain set, so the chain could not have been set. Therefore those who claim the chain was set are lying.

>It is possible for the killer to still be inside the room and leave the chain locked.

>No it's not.

Wow, you're really dismissive.
How is it impossible for someone, say Kyrie, to play dead in the shed, get out, kill Eva and Hideyoshi and hide under the bed or in the closet?

It's impossible to kill from the outside, I agree, which is only possible for the chain not to be real, but you are completely dismissing the logic that the killer could still be inside the room.

>>12157871
>ho do you get a weapon shaped like the stakes into a human skull?
Trap X or action X.
The method is irrelevant so long as it is done.
Like all murder mysteries, unless directly specified that the culprit is weak or that a specific person is very strong, so long as the culprit is alone in the room with the victim, the method is irrelevant.

>>12157880
Gunshot do larger damage than stakes.

>>12158066
>to play dead in the shed, get out
The shed was locked from the outside. In order for someone to get out, they would need an accomplice to open the shed for them. And weren't you just whining about exactly that line of thinking?

>Gunshot do larger damage than stakes.
It's stated repeatedly that the wounds were of a larger diameter than the stakes. In multiple murders, even. Did you even read the story?

>>12158066
>Anyone could have done it since the rose garden is close to the house.

Present evidence for it. You can't just say anyone could have done it.

It is forbidden for the mystery to be solved without clues. Clues must be presented.

>And Hideyoshi and Eva and might as well.

They were! But it primarily requires evidence from later episodes to figure out, so I didn't include it in my "Solve 1 with just 1" post.

>The killer is allowed to have accomplices but there is little proof to know who those may be so you can literally add anyone to make anything fit and claim they were paid off. There's no evidence needed.

There is proof, and evidence.

>The method is irrelevant so long as it is done.

Wrong. There must be evidence to support a conclusion.

>How is it impossible for someone, say Kyrie, to play dead in the shed, get out, kill Eva and Hideyoshi and hide under the bed or in the closet?

Because even if later red truths did not confirm Kyrie as killed in the first twilight the fact remains that the shed was locked with a new key solely under Natsuhi's control

>>12158119
Also, Battler saw Kyries corpse, with a wound that was 100% fatal. The only person in the shed he didn't see was Shannon.

>>12158133
Battler identified people by their clothes and noticed unspecified family members as having the same wounds.

Shannon not being seen only means that there is no proof that she is there, not that she's a culprit though it does put suspicion on her but there is no evidence to suspect Hideoyoshi from lying about Shannon not being there.

>>12158119
My issue with the series is that they used "dead" to describe Yasu choosing not to act like Kanon or Shannon, and Battler not to act like Battler.

So if you say Kyrie is "dead", you can later just claim "Because Kyrie was now Beatrice-Kyrie, and acting like a different person".

That is the plot hole that bothers me the most. Since it allows me to revive anyone I want, as a new piece.

>>12158210
Yeah, this gets brought up in the manga with Battler basically saying in red one by one each of the family members and the servants not being the ones who called Natsuhi in ep 5.
Basically making Yasu another character outside of the character list or a character can just create a bullshit name/persona/whatever to go around it and it becomes bullshit.
Though the whole revival only works on Yasu because fuck the rules.

>>12158133
>>12158193
Also to add, Battler only saw his parents faces being thrown and Nanjo tells him not to look.
So Rosa, Godha and especially Shannon are not directly verified by Battler.

So how many people were there? Do they count Yasu's different personas as "people"? Maybe R07 didn't know what the hell he was doing so all these arguments is moot.

>>12158210
>My issue with the series is that they used "dead" to describe Yasu choosing not to act like Kanon or Shannon, and Battler not to act like Battler.

Good thing there's also plenty of other evidence for characters deaths then red word that are vague and twisted.

Battler confirms many deaths with his own eyes. The only character across 4 games who he never sees dead is Kanon.

>>12158235
There are 17 Humans on Rokkenjima

There are 16 People.

>>12158258
How is a persona a human being? If at all, I would rather call that people

>>12158258
No no, there are 17 people on the island.

>>12158285
That's just how things were defined in 6, the only episode to give an exact number.

>>12158294
It gives a number but not a number of what which is subject to interpretation.

>>12158241
The problem I have is that detective lines are not "truth", they are just what the detective might think.

He could say someone is dead, but they are alive. Or he could say he sees Kanon, when he sees Yasu.

In the end, it is also the narrator choosing how the detective speaks. The narrator can let the detective make any mistakes that suit their purpose of concealing information.

>>12158327
>The problem I have is that detective lines are not "truth", they are just what the detective might think.

You're just running in circles mentally at this point. There's a reason End went out of it's way to talk about trusting the author

>>12158338
If trusting the author were true, people wouldn't doubt the narration in ep 1.

>>12158385
>If trusting the author were true, people wouldn't doubt the narration in ep 1.

You're missing the point.

The story of Umineko doubles as presenting a mystery for the readers to solve. This puzzle has rules, one of the rules is that Narration not given by the Detective is colored by their own perception and may be unreliable.

You seem to think that the presence of an unreliable narrator means the mystery can't be solved.

>>12158389
>This puzzle has rules
Which people ignore completely if ep 3 is any evidence.
Yasu being able to kill Nanjo is a good evidence of people not giving a fuck about the rules established.

I'm not saying the mystery can't be solved but people tend to connect the wrong dots by forcefully putting pieces into place to fit what they think is logical when it clearly contradicts evidences or has little evidence to prove the basis.

>>12158396
>Which people ignore completely if ep 3 is any evidence.

No it doesn't.

>Yasu being able to kill Nanjo is a good evidence of people not giving a fuck about the rules established.

What rule did Yasu break?

It's not the rule about her giving up if the epitaph is solved, because Yasu had no idea that Eva and Rosa had solved it.

>>12158396
>I'm not saying the mystery can't be solved but people tend to connect the wrong dots by forcefully putting pieces into place to fit what they think is logical when it clearly contradicts evidences or has little evidence to prove the basis.

Actually you're deliberately not connecting the dots by ignoring the evidence because... I dunno?

>>12158399
>No it doesn't.
Yes it does.
Hence why there are many interpretations on how ep 3 went down.
Eva killed Rosa and Maria, Yasu killed Rosa and Maria, I've even heard people say that Kyrie killed Rosa and Maria.

>because Yasu had no idea that Eva and Rosa had solved it.
Got any proof to back that up?

Are you telling me that Yasu killed the servants, let the family members bunker down in the small guest house (which she was not inside until the end with Jessica, or if she was, she would have still noticed Eva and Rosa leave the house mysteriously) but somehow failed to notice two of the adults leaving the only place where ALL the family members where at?
Yasu was unable to keep an eye of the front door where *everyone* was at? How did Yasu have no idea that Eva and Rosa headed for the Chapel? Where was Yasu the whole time?

There's no evidence to suggest she didn't know someone solve the gold.
Hell, if you take the meta scene literally about Eva becoming EVA-Beatrice, Yasu came to see Eva before the events of the second twilight and gave her the family ring so it's quite clear Beatrice knew that Eva solved the gold.

Not to mention that Beatrice says in red that the game is structured that if someone finds the gold, the murders committed by Yasu automatically end. See >>12157412
Not to mention if Yasu ignores people solving the epitaph, it breaks the magic which is something Yasu cannot do at all.

But then it makes people say that it was simply Eva who killed Rosa and Maria to silence them and then killed Kyrie, and Rudolf after they killed Hideyoshi but it becomes impossible for Eva to kill Nanjo which turns the whole thing into a logic error which is why assuming Yasu conveniently wasn't paying attention to the only damn building where everyone was at is the only logical reasoning people give for ep 3 even though it contradicts what Beatrice said about the game ending.

>>12158409
I'm not ignoring evidence.

I'm saying ''but this evidence says it's impossible'' to which people say ''nuh uh, Yasu doesn't give a shit about that''.
Making the fact of connecting the dots overshadow the evidences saying that those dots cannot even be connected.

>>12158414
>Got any proof to back that up?
There's an entire scene in the episode about Rosa and Eva agreeing to keep it a secret. PROTIP: There's a reason it was included by the author.

>>12158414
>Hence why there are many interpretations on how ep 3 went down.

There aren't.

>Eva killed Rosa and Maria, Yasu killed Rosa and Maria, I've even heard people say that Kyrie killed Rosa and Maria.

Just because there are people who are wrong doesn't mean anything.

>Got any proof to back that up?

The scene in which Eva and Rosa agreed to keep it a secret. You remember that one?

>Are you telling me that Yasu killed the servants, let the family members bunker down in the small guest house (which she was not inside until the end with Jessica, or if she was, she would have still noticed Eva and Rosa leave the house mysteriously) but somehow failed to notice two of the adults leaving the only place where ALL the family members where at?

Yes, because Yasu is a single fallible teenager, not an all knowing mastermind.

>There's no evidence to suggest she didn't know someone solve the gold.

Other then, you know, the scene that says Eva kept it a secret.

>Not to mention that Beatrice says in red that the game is structured that if someone finds the gold, the murders committed by Yasu automatically end.

She said she'll keep her promise. But she's not omnipotent, she can't know something people don't tell her!

>Not to mention if Yasu ignores people solving the epitaph, it breaks the magic which is something Yasu cannot do at all.

Good thing she didn't, again, nobody said anything! It's not like she didn't have accomplices in the guesthouse, if Eva had announced it she would have known by her accomplices telling her.

>>12158396
A character ignoring an in-universe rule (whether deliberately or not) does not mean the author is ignoring a literary rule. I think you are confused about that.

>>12158417
>I'm not ignoring evidence.

Yes you are. Again. And again.

>>12158420
I don't remember a mentioning in the letter of ''btw once you find the gold, make absolutely sure you share the fact with everyone AND ONLY THEN will I stop killing people''.
Not telling everyone is not grounds for the fact that Eva (and possibly also Rosa) solved the epitaph.

Here's a simple question, did Eva solve the Epitaph? Yes.
Therefore the murders were not committed by Yasu since she stopped killing.

>There's a reason it was included by the author.
No shit but you're too dumb to even know why it was included by the author.
Your explanation would somewhat be that it was to prove that Yasu didn't know shit when it goes deeper than that.

Just because your interpretation of why a scene was included does not make it fact.

>>12158426
>Just because there are people who are wrong doesn't mean anything.
Knox 9th.

>The scene in which Eva and Rosa agreed to keep it a secret. You remember that one?
I swear you guys keep signing the same tune.

>Other then, you know, the scene that says Eva kept it a secret.
How is keeping it a secret preventing the death when it wasn't included in the letter.
The letter specifically specifies to solve the epitaph and nothing else.
The game ends automatically, not when you tell others about your victory. Hence the meta scene immediately afterwards where Eva becomes EVA-Beatrice which is her being acknoledged by Beatrice that she solved the epitaph and is the head of the family.

>But she's not omnipotent, she can't know something people don't tell her!
Oh? And where was she? In Kinzo's room masturbating?
Why wasn't she keeping tabs on the single building where the family was hiding?

>if Eva had announced it she would have known by her accomplices telling her.
There is no evidence showing that confessing to solving the Epitaph is what stops the murders.
There is more evidence showing that simply finding the gold itself stops the epitaph.

>>12158433
I like how you don't specify what I'm ignoring.

>>12158447
>Not telling everyone is not grounds for the fact that Eva (and possibly also Rosa) solved the epitaph.

PEOPLE CAN'T KNOW THINGS IF THEY'RE KEPT A SECRET.

>I swear you guys keep signing the same tune.

Yes, because you see, it's the truth.

>Knox 9th

Why are you talking about a rule for fictional stories? I'm talking about real people.

>The game ends automatically, not when you tell others about your victory.

So you're admitting Beatrice is a witch? She can just magically know things even if people try and hide them then?

>I like how you don't specify what I'm ignoring.

There have been quite a few.

Just as an example, I said that in Episode 1 Kanon is the only one who we're shown having traveled between the mansion and the guesthouse so he has to have been the one who gave Maria the umbrella and letter, and your response was to just go "Lol it could have been anybody!"

>>12158447
>Here's a simple question, did Eva solve the Epitaph? Yes.
>Therefore the murders were not committed by Yasu since she stopped killing.
I can tell that your reading comprehension skills aren't much to brag about, but just to make sure: you did understand that the entire thrust of the story was to disprove the existence of omnipotent witches and prove that "Beatrice" is just a fallible human, right?

>>12158447
>The letter specifically specifies to solve the epitaph and nothing else. The game ends automatically, not when you tell others about your victory.

This doesn't make a lick of sense. Are you trying to claim the game should just end as if by magic?

WITCHES AND MAGIC DON'T EXIST RETARD.

>>12158456
>PEOPLE CAN'T KNOW THINGS IF THEY'RE KEPT A SECRET.
Sure they can.
Do you have any evidence to say that Yasu wasn't outside of the family guest house, waiting for someone to come out so she could kill them?

Do you have any evidence that says that Yasu did not see Eva and Rosa come out of the only spot where EVERYONE was at to head directly where the gold was.

Why does Yasu have to be omnipotent when Eva and Rosa are clearly stated to have gotten out of the front door of the family guest house?

>Yes, because you see, it's the truth.
>my interpretations of the fact are true because I say it is
Oh, man, Beatrice would laugh at your shit.

>So you're admitting Beatrice is a witch? She can just magically know things even if people try and hide them then?
The game is written by Beatrice who has control over Yasu, so yes.

>your response was to just go "Lol it could have been anybody!"
Well yeah.
Kanon is shown to have been where Maria was in the Rose Garden which actually could be evidence that Kanon was the culprit since he actually went to see Maria.

But my counter was that most people inside the mansion could have easy have done the same.

>>12158474
Because red truth don't matter at all, right?

Here's a question.
When Beatrice says that she'll keep her promise about ending the murders.
Does it actually not mean a single thing or is it because you ignore it.

>>12158483
I'm not saying it ends by magic you turboshit.
I'm simply using the analogy given by Maria from Yasu which is that solving the epitaph ends the game JUST LIKE IT SAYS IN THE GODDAMN LETTER.

>>12158490
>Do you have any evidence to say that Yasu wasn't outside of the family guest house, waiting for someone to come out so she could kill them?

The fact that in 3, and 3 alone, Maria freaks out over her rose on the second day. She throws this screaming tantrum only to instantly calm down when Rosa agrees.

Maria is absolutely a sort of accomplice to Yasu. It's pretty clear she had set up Rosa and Maria to be the Second Twilight. Why would she need to watch the mansion constantly when she had the little girl who idolizes her like a god ready and willing to head down to her?

>Do you have any evidence that says that Yasu did not see Eva and Rosa come out of the only spot where EVERYONE was at to head directly where the gold was.

The fact that Yasu did not announce her defeat. She keeps her promises, but she can't keep a promise if she doesn't know the conditions exist.

If I promise to give someone 100 dollars if they watch Boku no Pico, and then they watch it... but never tell me they watched it... have I broken my promise?

>>12158490
>Do you have any evidence to say that Yasu wasn't outside of the family guest house, waiting for someone to come out so she could kill them?
Yasu was too busy pretending to be a corpse, obviously.

>Here's a question.
>When Beatrice says that she'll keep her promise about ending the murders.
>Does it actually not mean a single thing or is it because you ignore it.
As I thought, this is a reading comprehension issue. Beatrice states in red that she "will keep her promise". This is a statement of intent. The absolute truth that applies here is that she has no intention of breaking her oath. What you're reading it as is "no one will die if the epitath is solved", which is NOT written in red.

Continued from >>12158510

Kindly notice that only the first sentence is written in red, not the entire paragraph.

Now please use all the grey matter in your skull to figure out what that implies.

>>12158499
>If I promise to give someone 100 dollars if they watch Boku no Pico, and then they watch it... but never tell me they watched it... have I broken my promise?
Well yeah, he watched the anime, you owe him 100 bucks.
If you don't give him the money, regardless of you knowing or not, you have broken your promise. You didn't include ''by the way, come see me after you're done'', you just said to watch the anime and he'd receive the money. Who's to say that after the video is finished, the money is directly wired to his account?

Now, this would not make a shit of sense since your human and don't know at all time what is going on but Meta-Beatrice does..

>>12158510
>Yasu was too busy pretending to be a corpse, obviously.
>pretending to be a corpse when no one is there to keep an eye on her.
Riiiiight.
Eva solving the epitaph didn't happen in a single hour you know.

>What you're reading it as is "no one will die if the epitath is solved", which is NOT written in red.
>Ignoring the white
She keeps her promise.
The promise being that the murders end if the epitaph is solved.

>The absolute truth that applies here is that she has no intention of breaking her oath.
Well she sure as fuck broke it since the murders kept happening.

Where's the risk if Yasu can simply ignore or feign ignorance from someone solving the epitaph?

>>12158542
>Where's the risk if Yasu can simply ignore or feign ignorance from someone solving the epitaph?
She won't. The red truth says that she will keep her promise.

Are you really this stupid or am I arguing with a troll?

Pretty sure it's a troll since you actually responded seriously to >too busy pretending to be a corpse

>>12158542
>If you don't give him the money, regardless of you knowing or not, you have broken your promise.

Incredible. I really don't know what to say to this.

>Now, this would not make a shit of sense since your human and don't know at all time what is going on but Meta-Beatrice does..

Meta-Beatrice is not the same being as the game-board Yasu. They make overlap a lot but they're still distinct entities as shown by EP4.

>>12158552
>The red truth says that she will keep her promise.
She will keep her promise if someone solves the epitaph.

Are you fucking dense or what?
It says so in that same goddamn image.
She will keep her promise about not killing people.
She is committed to not kill people by promise once the epitaph is solved.

Seriously you even say it.
>The red truth says that she will keep her promise

She makes a promise. On the subject of a clause on not killing people if requirements are met, such as solving the Epitaph.
Do X and Y will happen, this is a promise.
How do you not understand this?
How the fuck can it be otherwise?

>Meta-Beatrice is not the same being as the game-board Yasu. They make overlap a lot but they're still distinct entities as shown by EP4.
Meta-Beatrice is a combination of all Beatrice. Yasu is a part of her. They are separate and whole.
The red apply to both as it concerns the gameboard itself as truth.
The red is truth and does not need to be questioned.

>>12158573
You... you do realize that Meta-Beatrice is the one who made Eva solve the Epitaph then.

Like all the other game-boards, it's was a fictional story, Beatrice made the Eva Piece on the board solve the Epitaph to facilitate the story she wanted to tell Battler for the third game.

>>12158584
All the more reason if it's fiction and you lay out rules that aren't followed.

And if you want to be more technical, Tohya was the one who wrote the story, not Beatrice but whatever.
Tohya wrote that Eva solved the epitaph because it's what happened in post-prime.
It makes even more sense as a fictional standpoint that the rules have to be followed since the author has complete authority on it.

>>12158573
You can't be serious. Which part of "This is a statement of intent." did you not understand?

If someone had said in red "I will not lie to you", that does not mean every sentence out of their mouth would magically become an incontrovertible fact. Some of the things they say may even be false or subjective, as long as the intention to lie was absent.

How is it even possible not to understand such an elementary distinction?

>>12158591
>And if you want to be more technical, Tohya was the one who wrote the story, not Beatrice but whatever.

Ehhh they both did. Meta man, it's weird stuff.

>>12158594
Fine then, here's a simpler way of solving this bullshit of itnent.
What does she intent to do?
To keep her promise.

Which means she will honor her promise and commit to what the promise contains.

It's a red truth of intent on a specific task which will be kept if the requirements are met (which is solving the epitaph)


I will keep my promise?
What will she keep? Her promise that no more people will die by the ceremony.
Therefore killing for the ceremony (Yasu killing) will stop.

>>12158609
Yes but, again, she can't keep this promise if she doesn't know that the terms for keeping it have been set!

You're just steadfastly ignoring the story for some retarded reason I can not understand.

>>12158609
You acknowledge that the red truth only signifies her intention not to go back on her word, not an absolute guarantee that the killing will stop. Yet you somehow still expect a magical phenomenon to inform Yasu about the solving of the epitath in spite of the fact that it was deliberately kept secret.

As long as you don't address this problem, there is a gaping hole in your argument.

>>12158611
>she doesn't know that the terms for keeping it have been set!
Yes she does.

She says it herself and Maria even says it.
>>12158414

And are you saying the person who creates the gameboard doesn't know the terms for the promise? That's ridiculous.

>>12158616
>Yet you somehow still expect a magical phenomenon to inform Yasu about the solving of the epitath in spite of the fact that it was deliberately kept secret.
Yasu isn't some single entity that operates freely.
She is a pawn.

The story is already written down for Battler to solve.
If X happens, Beatrice promises will keep her promise that the ceremony will end.
The ceremony murders happened in ep 1-2 because no one solved the epitaph. The ceremony did not happen in ep 3 because the epitaph was solved.

Hell, I even just thought of a proof right now.
In ep 1-2 all the murders had stakes in them to signify that they are murders for the ceremony (and stakes were commenly used for sacrifices) but immediately after Eva solves the epitaph, Maria and Rosa die without the stakes.
After which, Kyrie, Hideoyoshi and Rudolf die in the mansion in the middle of nowhere whereas previous murders were conducted in closed rooms.

There is even proof of this in ep 3.
Before the epitaph was solved, there is a 6 chain room closed room.
But after Eva solves the epitaph, there is no more closed room murders.

Therefore murders by closed room = ceremony death, non closed room = non ceremony death (either by Kanon faking or due to the ceremony ending)

>>12158631
>Yasu isn't some single entity that operates freely.
>She is a pawn.
Yes, a pawn in a game in which the game master intentionally obfuscates and confuses as many details as possible in order to mislead the player. I don't see why you'd suddenly assume Beatrice to upfront about things in EP3.

>If X happens, Beatrice promises will keep her promise that the ceremony will end.
Beatrice fulfills two separate roles in the game boards. Firstly as game master, and secondly, as a stand-in for the murderer and author of the letter. When Beatrice speaks in red about her intention to fulfill the promise written in the letter, she speaks in her role as the murderer, not her role as the game master. Therefore, it is not a guarantee that game-master-Beatrice will ensure the fulfillment of the promise.

>Hell, I even just thought of a proof right now.
>Maria and Rosa die without the stakes.
You're really grasping at straws now. I don't even see how this is supposed to prove any of what we were previously discussing.
They were killed by Eva, not Yasu. Eva doesn't have any stakes.

>After which, Kyrie, Hideoyoshi and Rudolf die in the mansion in the middle of nowhere whereas previous murders were conducted in closed rooms.
They were killed in a shootout with Eva after Rudolf and Kyrie confronted Hideyoshi about his complicity. Again, Eva has no stakes.

>Therefore murders by closed room = ceremony death, non closed room = non ceremony death
......Really? Really, man? You must be tired. Please get some rest.

>>12158676
>They were killed by Eva, not Yasu. Eva doesn't have any stakes.
This is what I meant way back.
There are different interpretations of ep 3.
People say Yasu kills Maria and Rosa and gives no shit about the epitaph being solved while others say that Eva killed them or even Kyrie killed them etc.

Then we can assume that Yasu is no longer killing people since someone else is killing or that she has stopped entirely after someone solved the epitaph.

>You're really grasping at straws now. I don't even see how this is supposed to prove any of what we were previously discussing.
It's mostly to show that people are killed via stakes when killed by Yasu but killed differently when it is not by ceremonial death.

>They were killed in a shootout with Eva after Rudolf and Kyrie confronted Hideyoshi about his complicity. Again, Eva has no stakes.

Alright, we're getting somewhere.
So basically Yasu does the first twilight, Eva solves the gold. Then she kills Maria and Rosa and then ??? and Hideoyoshi, Kyrie and Rudolf die. (I'm ignoring this part because people bring up that Eva couldn't have killed Hideyoshi but it doesn't limit the fact that maybe Kyrie killed him or whatever).
Right, and then Eva poisons Krauss and Natsuhi since she was the one holding the cups.

But then we come at a single fuck up that I was trying to show.
If we assume that Eva is the one who did all the murders in ep 3, it becomes impossible for her to kill Nanjo.

The fact of the matter is that people say that Yasu did all the murders (kill Rosa, Maria, Kyrie, Rudolf and Hideyoshi, with Eva likely killing Krauss and Natsuhi) and have Yasu used to explain Nanjo's death.
HOWEVER, if Eva was the one who killed everyone, Yasu would have no need to kill Nanjo as it is not a murder for the ceremony.

So if Eva could not have killed Nanjo and Yasu either stopped killing after the epitaph was solved, or noticed people killing and had no hand in any of the murders, why did Yasu kill Nanjo at the end?

>>12158676
>......Really? Really, man? You must be tired. Please get some rest.
Yeah, we'll talk another time, I'm having trouble even making coherent sentences.

>>12158700
>But then we come at a single fuck up that I was trying to show.
>If we assume that Eva is the one who did all the murders in ep 3, it becomes impossible for her to kill Nanjo.
That is because your reasoning includes this:
>Then we can assume that Yasu is no longer killing people since someone else is killing or that she has stopped entirely after someone solved the epitaph.

As I've been arguing since the beginning, Yasu is still on intent on killing people since she is unaware that the epitaph has been solved. However, Eva has independently been going on her own rampage, and, in order not to throw off the order of the twilights in the ceremony, she's been taking into account Eva's bodycount. This explains why, despite Rudolf and Kyrie's deaths coming at Eva's hands, Yasu later dropped by to stick stakes in their corpses. (Eva has not stakes, remember?) Nanjo's murder is therefore not out of place as it remains part of Yasu's ceremony.

I dunno, was that clear enough?

>>12158714
If only the author would just confirm some stuff instead of leaving so many things vague.

I feel like I enjoyed Umineko, but after reading the whole thing I'm left with confusion. The most entertaining parts were the gameboards and those things apparently aren't even real.

Also Hideyoshi needed a chance to shine

>>12158733
I like the fact that Hideyoshi's character wasn't given a huge amount of depth. He was always presented as the parent carrying the least amount of psychological baggage - basically the only sane man in a house full of lunatics.

Having his deep-seated issues probed and analyzed like the other parents' would have demoralized me.

Let's shift this discussion to other things that are completely confusing. Like why R07 decided to never set a gender on Yasu.

I've often read the claim that because the fall damaged "him", he decided to live a life as a girl. But if you think about episode 7 and the Yasu that didn't fall off the cliff dressing like a female anyway, it gets really confusing.

To me it feels like it is all just to enhance the clues for Yasu possibly dressing as a man or woman, to point at Yasu being Kanon and Shannon. It has nothing to do with Yasu's own body.

>>12159228
Lion's clothes were pretty manly.

>>12159228
It's intentionally vague and left unanswered to reflect Yasu's own sense of gender confusion. That's all.

>>12158726
Nanjo wasn't killed with a stake.

>>12159287
Obviously. He was killed on the ninth twilight. Stakes are only used for the fourth to eighth twilights.

>>12159306
Wait, so Yasu killed someone outside of the twilights?
Doesn't this mean that Nanjo was killed outside the ceremony and that Yasu has no bunsiness killing him?
I don't recall which twilight he was killed.

>>12159313
How do you interpret "ninth twilight" as "outside the twilights"? Get your prescription checked, buddy.

>>12158746
Some more infos about the everyday life of the family then and then would have been nice.
Just to see what they do when they dont fight about the inheritance.

I was expecting Lambdadelta to be one of the villains but she actually turned out to be a bro.

She didn't do anything bad

>>12159514
Lambda is the best witch

>>12159514
She helped Bern in episode 5

>>12159232
speaking of that, i always wondered how Jessica got her short skirt past the quite conservative Natsuhi...

>>12159522
I want to Lambda her Delta.

>>12159987
Long skits for for delinquents with something to hide

>>12160266
How lewd

Cutest umineko

Why did Umineko have to crash and burn, it was such a great ride up through episode 5

>>12159987
So thats why Battler has amnesia, Jessica brass knuckeled him into oblivion...

I just wanted to get proper answers to all the mysteries if they were even solvable to begin with. I don't have the brain capacity to solve all these fucking closed room murders and stuff.

>>12161183
Except 6 and 7 were the best episodes.

>>12162069
I believe the answers are readily available out there for the presented mysteries. Most of them rely on people lying or fake deaths.

The real events have no answers though. Like why there were 2 bottles with mysteries floating around. Why Battler and Eva split up after the disaster. If anything with Ange is real or meta. R07 wanted it all to be a cat box.

>>12162994
>The real events have no answers though

Nah it's the EP7 Tea Party.

>>12161183
It was still a great ride. I didn't hate any episode, not even 7.

The only problem I have is Ryukishi not providing enough answers. I understand that some things were meant to be a mystery, but not enough was revealed to justify all the detective shit. It just feels like "I read something awesome, but I can't really explain what happened."

>>12160351
Lambda was so innocent compared to the other witches. She didn't even hurt anyone. All she did was be tsuru pettan!

>>12162994
>Why Battler and Eva split up after the disaster.
Obviously 'cause Battler was one of the culprits. Tohya is said to be frequently wracked by guilt when recalling Battler's memories and even attempted suicide once as a result.

>>12163246
It's reinforced by the fact that Kyrie said that she would try to enlist Battler's help. I doubt she would have left him alive if he refused to be an accomplice.

>>12163246
>>12163555
Well, yeah, besides the fact that it's confirmed in red at the end of EP7. It also meshes with the fact that Eva maintained a vow of silence 'til the very end to protect Ange.

>>12163246
Battler is not the culprit.

Not only was it stated in red he was not, but nothing in Battler's character matches him being the killer.

Plus Black Battler shows how absurd that idea is. Tohya could easily stop B.Battler from existing, but he won't.

>>12163747
Battler not being the culprit is true only for the game boards.

Who the fuck is Black Battler.

>>12163747
He is not the main culprit, but he can still be an accomplice. I don't really know what the red text considers the "culprit" anyway. Is it Yasu, or is it Rudolf+Kyrie ? I'm pretty sure it's Beatrice, so Yasu.
It's true that it doesn't fit Battler's character at first glance, but I could see him doing bad things if he is forced to. I don't think Kyrie would leave him much choice.
Black Battler doesn't outright deny that Battler is the culprit. It just casts doubt on the idea. But it also casts doubt on Kyrie's and Rudolf's culpability, yet we know for sure that these two are guilty. It's simply there to fit the themes of the game.
If Battler does not help Kyrie in the slightest, I don't know why she lets him live. She has more than enough time to meet him before meeting Eva. She says explicitly that she will try to convince him to become their accomplice.

>>12163775
He's a character from the TIP "Forgery No. XXX" and appears in OMK as well.

He's the personification of the "Battler Culprit Theory." In the TIP he laughs about how he'll entertain witches for all eternity, taunting Tohya who has the power to destroy him.

In OMK he's expanded on, a little. He says he has no motive and exists solely to be the "Culprit"

Basically he shows that Battler being the culprit or an accomplice makes no sense

>>12159514
>she turned out to be a bro
She won the game and was just continuing the stalemate which she was betting on.

>>12163775
Umineko Tsubasa.

Black Battler is a fanmade version of Battler after the events of ep 8 where the mystery fans say fuck Tohya's authorithy after Ikuko, whom the fans interpret as Tohya, doesn't give them the answers.
So the mystery fan decide to make their own mystery game no matter how much it breaks the rules.

For example, Black Battler starts and literally just kills Ronove.
Then Kanon basically becomes shocked that Battler is breaking the rules but is powerless to stop him.

At a key point, Black Battler, just screams at the heavens that Tohya can stop this madness at any time if he just gives the answer.

Tohya had full authority in the forgeries of what happened on the island by how similar they were to the first two. After ep 4, the mystery fans wanted to have their own say in the story and they put their own detective to solve the story (hence Bernkastel putting Erika on the board).
But ep 5 ended with Erika not even getting the right answer and Battler/Tohya (?) laughing at the mystery fans for being idiots.
So ep 6 comes along and Erika doesn't give a fuck about solving the mystery and just wants to fuck with Battler, which is possibly the mystery fans just cornering Tohya into the logic error where he was supposedly stuck for 2 years. Once he got out of it, he closed the gameboard (basically closing his account or whatever on the internet) and removed the possibility of anyone other than the main characters in the story in red.
Once ep 8 comes out, the mystery fan invite Tohya to their own version of the mystery which Tohya solves and laughs at how silly blaming Battler is.
After Ikuko runs away with the dairy, the mystery fans are furious and decide to make their own stories because they can.
There is also a mention of Featherine saying that any story past ep 6 is not to made by Tohya.

>>12163995
>Basically he shows that Battler being the culprit or an accomplice makes no sense
What does he do?

>>12163999

Kills everybody for no raisin.
His only apparent motive (and therefore the only motive ascribable to Battler Culprit Theory) is that he enjoys seeing his family die.

Even Black Battler thinks it's completely asinine.

>>12164647
Seems logical enough, he was living with ''common'' people for a good number of years.
That can change a man.

>>12164647
Hardly no reason. The main motivator would obviously be money.

>>12163998
Will you stop with this stupid "Bern is the mystery fans" thing.

>>12164664
That isn't given as a motivator for Black Battler though.

Because it's long established Battler doesn't care much about money.

It's heavily implied that Battler is one of the culprits. The idea is made fun of with black battler but then again EP8 also makes fun of the idea that Rudolf and Kyrie are the only possible culprits, even though they are.

>>12164647
Battler's motive : Kyrie forced him to cooperate

>>12165172
>That isn't given as a motivator for Black Battler though.
Nobody gives a fuck about Black Battler. I'm talking about the genuine article.

>>12165310
And Black Battler exists as a device to show that the real Battler had absolutely nothing to do with the incident.

I mean, come on, Tohya can stop him by revealing the truth. If Battler was involved in any way, revealing the truth wouldn't destroy the "Battler Culprit Theory"

Battler never existed. He was just Ange's furniture. Yasu wrote him into the stories to punish the exiled member of Mariage Sorcery.

Think about it. Sure is convenient that he change family registers, then his grandparents died at once. Eva probably tried to tell Ange, but Ange began to hate her, so Eva gave up.

>>12152785
>>12152788
>>12152821

>>12165450
He has blue eyes, Amasuka has black.

Also I'm pretty sure Battler's an atheist.

itt: newfriends discovering 4-7 year old games because of the shitty ps3 port

What happened in umineko was ryukishi trying his skills in mystery and failing horribly. In the meantime his boyfriend got cancer from reading his works. When he realised he had no idea how to fix the gaping plotholes and logical fallacies he went picture related.

>>12165538
0/10

>>12165538
Hahahaha look at this guy butthurt over not being able to solve it.

>>12152923
Nomura is on a whole different level than those Ushiromiya clowns. Nomura was working for half a dozen different governments and promising them all different things. Then she was able to interfere with the PM's decision in a private meeting. She set Takano up to do all the dirty work and take blame, then got away free despite her treason and attempted mirder of 2000 people.

Kyrie and Rudolf got sued by Americandies, couldn't even cheat Krauss out of the money, and failed to commit mass murder. How pathetic. The only Umineko who even compares is Okonogi and maybe Kinzo, and Okonogi isn't a fair match, because he learned from Nomura.

>>12165791
I bet Goku could beat up this Nomura idiot.

>>12165171
No.

>>12165450
You know, it's sort of funny if you consider the trick end if it's actually Battler.

If Kinzo was a coward and traitor, then where did he get all those war medals he used for the riddle game?

>>12166029

Because nobody was alive to contradict his tale of HEROISM AND BRAVERY.

We know that Kinzo was a mass-murdering psychopath blinded by the prospect of riches and who wasn't above weaving tall tales to make himself out to be a hero.

Now consider how often Battler is said to be "just like Kinzo". Really does give some perspective.

>>12166029
Maybe off the corpses of all the honorable Italian and Japanese soldiers he killed.

>>12166029
>>12166093
>>12166122
>>12166128
Please guys, stop judging poor Goldsmith based only on the testimony of a crazy mutilated faggot and an angst crippled fiction writer with brain damage. We've never met Kinzo. No one who wrote about him knew him before his children started murderering his Beatrices.

>>12166134
He forced himself on the daughter that he believed to be the reincarnation of his lover. Doesn't take a thorough psychiatric evaluation to realize he's not quite right in the head.

>>12166134
Kinzo is probably the most morally bankrupt character in the game

>>12165377
Ange was six when the events on Rokkenjima occured.
She may not remember everything correct and idealize Battler in her memories, but she surely could tell if she had a brother or not.

>>12166183
Which is really impressive all things considered.

>>12165538
It felt like what Ryukishi was trying to do was "innovate" the mystery genre, by presenting a story with no definitive answer, and admonishing people who wanted to dissect it.

The problem was he's not a particularly good writer, so while the potential to make such a story is there, in his very solidly average hands, it just comes off as overly preachy and even a bit dangerous, as far as the mentality is concerned.

I left the story with the impression that Ryukishi was pushing a philosophy of, if the truth is unpleasant, and you attaining knowledge of it will not fix anything, it is better to just close your ears and eyes and remain blissfully ignorant, because that will feel better. It's not an appeal to love, it's an appeal to delusion.

So, Umineko isn't really a mystery story to be solved, only "imagined". It could've done everything in two episodes and not 8.

>>12166381
It's not really an appeal to delusion ; ignoring unpleasant truths is what people do all the time. I think what describes umineko's philosophy best is what Will says about innocent truths. Don't destroy the "magic" of life without good reason to do so.

What about when Bern was helping Battler and she said Nipah? You're gonna tell me that was a lie too?

>>12166444
She was trying to get entertainment out of beato's game, it's no fun if battler loses immediately. Not to mention that she bet on him so she needs him to win. It doesn't really matter in the end because the game is stacked against Beato anyway

>>12166411
Nope. It's a mystery to be solved.

>>12166444
She's talking to the player, not Battler at that point.

>>12166381
That really only applies to EP8.

>>12166460
Not really, the game is actually stacked ridiculously against Beatrice.
If Battler just spilled the beans when he figured out who was the culprit in ep 5, Bernkastel would have won.
She let her ego and Erika's ego about finding the culprit so quickly that it pissed off Battler who then fell in love with Beatrice.

The conditions for the game in Umineko is for Battler, or the detective at hand, to point towards a culprit and deny that it was a witch.
And for Beatrice to win, all she had to do was to get Battler to admit it was a witch that did it.
Hence why ep 1 and 2 end with Battler admitting it was a witch; the desire of the killer in the end before committing the murders.
Hell, Beatrice came ridiculously close to winning at the end of ep 3.

>>12166485
>Not really, the game is actually stacked ridiculously against Beatrice.
That's what I said.
Beatrice would actually have won in EP 3 if she wanted to, but the condition she imposed on herself made the game impossible to win. She basically wanted him to figure out the truth about herself and rokkenjima and accept her as a witch at the same time. This is representative of the feelings Yasu had for Battler, who in all likelihood forgot about her and his promise. Battler remembers her eventually, but it's too late

>>12166489
Shit, I meant to agree with you, not disagree.
I need sleep.

>Beatrice would actually have won in EP 3 if she wanted to, but the condition she imposed on herself made the game impossible to win.
I actually disagree, I think she would have taken her victory at that moment.
Or maybe not and she just wanted to fuck with Battler even more.

>>12166493
>I actually disagree, I think she would have taken her victory at that moment.

Then why did she intentionally throw the game

>>12166498
>Then why did she intentionally throw the game
She didn't.
Ange came and stopped Battler from signing.

Though a case could be made that she didn't actually want to win by the way she went all crazy by acting smug before Battler signed, though it could just be her tasting victory inches before she won.

The threw the game as much as she could be giving a ridiculous amount of chances but could not give up because she wanted Battler to remember.

>>12166502
>Ange came and stopped Battler from signing.

Wrong. Beato started the creepy act revealing that she had been pretending through a lot of 3 before Ange showed up.

Also, I'd like to point out nobody is allowed in the Golden Land without Beatrice's permission, so she knew Ange was there and allowed her to "stop" her.

>>12166502
Pretty sure she mentions herself that she threw the game. While she's about to die at the end of ep 4 she says "maybe I should have compromised back then after all, but it didn't feel like a true victory". This is also possibly linked to Yasu's gender issues because it feels like a similar dilemma "maybe I could lie to them for a while and we could be happy for a short period of time, but this isn't a true victory/true love. they don't accept me for who I am"

>>12166513
Nah, more like she won because she deceived Battler but it was not a personal victory because her goal was for him to understand.

>>12166516
She would have won by the rules of the game she set up, but the issue was of course that her goal in setting up the game necessitated her losing it.

But you know, it was pretty obviously really hard for her. Because while it wasn't her main goal, it was still something she had wanted so badly, Battler's love.

It would have been so easy to just settle for that, for him loving her in that way. But instead she decided it wasn't enough.

Battler loved her and had transformed her in his mind into a tragic heroine, redeemed with his help so they could team up and defeat evil witches. It was no different then how George and Jessica were with Shannon and Kanon, loving only a part of her, one of the masks she wore. So she gave it up, she wanted more out of Battler, so she discarded the lie.

Beatrice intentionally threw the game at the end of EP3. This is common knowledge.

>>12166316
Are you sure? For a long time, she actually believed that the imaginary friends she stole from Maria's diary were real and that they could kill her enemies for her.

>>12167015
That never happened.
Remove the meta, it's just Ange being alone while reading a diary.
Not to mention the uncertainty by assuming the post prime events never actually happened.

What just caught my eye...

..according to the color pages in the first manga volume at least Jessica and Maria could just have drowned without the sligthest bit of magic.

Just look, they dive with open mouths :)

>>12167076
That's the power of moe.

>>12167015
that's a coping mechanism. A lot of children do that, daydream ways to get revenge for stuff they feel powerless about. She didn't actually believe that, she just let herself idly daydream because she was lonely and hurt.

>>12166477
I can't really be completely solved, though.

>>12167143
Sure it can.
The problem is you don't know if you have the right answer or not since anything is good enough if you think it is.

>>12167188
Same thing can be said of any random story
>There are 5 people in a house
>One day, two of them died
>Who did it? Why? When? And how?
I can think of a lot of stuff but I will never know the right answer.

>>12167143
Yes it can.

>>12167076
Or they got devoured by sharks, attracted by the blood from Battlers nose

>>12167188
>The problem is you don't know if you have the right answer

I do.

>>12167625

There are alot of people who think they know the answer. And everytime i ask them about some details, they shitpost the hell out of them.

What kind are you?

>>12167640
You listed only one kind of person and then asked what kind I am.

>>12167665

I didn't intend to give you some prepared answers because you can answer of your own.

But what do you think? Did they reunite in the end or not?

>>12167682
You mean did Battler and Beatrice reunite in the end?

Yeah they reunited in the Golden Land.

>>12165450
RIP

Umineko has the best moms

>>12167745

That answer was enough for me. You don't know anything it seems.

>>12168005
>says I don't know anything
>doesn't say why

For one thing what you said "I don't know anything" for answering a question about something that was presented as a thematic point of the story rather then a puzzle to solve.

"Battler and Beatrice are reunited in the Golden Land" is how Umineko ends, however what "The Golden Land" means has many interpretations depending on the perspective and "world" you're talking about.

It could simply be the land of the dead, so Battler and Beatrice are reunited in death. A world of fantasy in which Beatrice is given the happiness she desires, with the man she loves with him, a metaphorical representation of Tohya finding peace with his past, and so on.

>>12167950
speaking of that, who's the best dad in your opinion?
My vote would go to Hideyoshi.

>>12168449
Krauss

There is something that bugs me....They say that the "Game Master" knows everything that happens inside the game board. So...When Erika kills Kyrie and the others in episode 6, it's impossible for Battler,the game master, not to notice this. Was he playing dumb? Did he play dumb,so Beatrice can go back to her old self in order to save him??I don't even know anymore.

>>12168449
Krauss.

>>12168640
>Was he playing dumb?

Yes.

>Did he play dumb,so Beatrice can go back to her old self in order to save him??

Yes.

The entire thing was a recreation of Yasu solving the Epitaph. Beatrice died but a "new Beatrice" lived, the man who loved her locks himself in a room, leaving behind a mad riddle. The new Beatrice solves the riddle, and they're reunited.

Battler's version is a lot kinder overall, but hey that's fantasy for you.

So, is Aurora actually...Hanyuu?
>It is said that Bernkastel was a cat used as a piece by an unnamed game master.
>Bernkastel was originally a cat of Featherine Augustus Aurora, who was turned into a witch.
>It is said that Aurora was a Game Master of various games.
>Lambda calls Aurora a cruel game master who put Bernkastel into a logic error that she had to solve all alone. (Possibly this game master being Aurora).

>>12168742
Of course not, she doesn't have any horns.

>>12168084
True, sorry for that. Then it wasn't enough answer for me.

It's hard to tell you why i think/thought you are wrong or anything else because i'm trying to keep discussions small here before i start to write a bunch of text untill i see that other persons just have a somewhat dumb insight from my perspective.

Of course your answer wasn't that wrong for me but somehow i rushed this over.

But this Golden Land in this scene has alot more true details and it gives you a straight ending (but of course not for everything in this story..)

If you understood how magic works and you have no problems seeing through it, you can see trough the magic ending with more specific mystery knowledge from the story. I've never seen someone explaining the boat scene at the end like i would and i think it's kinda funny even though alot of people are thinking with DID. That tells me that people who think with DID don't know how DID works and how it works in this story.

I don't like to bring up this topic here.

>>12168742

Aurora summoned Hanyuu while playing a game against Lambdadelta. (i guess it was lambdadelta?)

Some magic was called on Aurora and she slept, suddenly she somehow summoned Hanyuu as a piece who was lost in existence and couldn't do anything at all.

But no, Aurora is not Hanyuu, but she has a connection to her. The next WTC with more extra tips probably will tell us more about all these back-back-back stories since higurashi.

>>12168742
Yes, she is.

>>12168855

Hanyuu was Auroras accident-piece

>>12168816
>I've never seen someone explaining the boat scene at the end

That's because it doesn't need much explaining. It's a fantasy embellished version of Battler and Yasu's final moments.

>>12169318
So Yasu actually drowned instead of being shot by Kyrie?

>>12169388
Yes.

You'll notice that when Eva gets up in the tea party, she mentions everyone else's body who got shot there but Beatrice's.

>>12169393
Then who was the Beatrice shot?

>>12169394
Kyrie missed just like she missed Eva.

Not a very good shot. Plus those Winchesters weren't exactly the best guns. It's implied one doesn't even work and another is faulty.

>>12169400
Woah, the boat scene is a lot better when you realize Battler's wasn't talking to a gold ingot.

>>12169408
>Woah, the boat scene is a lot better when you realize Battler's wasn't talking to a gold ingot.

Yeah, I don't see how anybody could interpret the scene that way, it pretty much destroys the emotional core, which is what the entire point of presenting it in fantasy was about, showing the emotional core rather then the literal true events.

>>12169408
Battler was never talking to anyone.
Remove the meta and focus on Battler's action and it becomes ridiculously clear what happened.
Battler gets on the boat, closes one eye, and then the other and then falls.
He then ends up at the bottom of the ocean.

That's all there is to it.
I like to imagine Battler solving what happened on Prime as he's drowning.

>>12169488
>Battler was never talking to anyone.

He was talking to Yasu.

>Remove the meta and focus on Battler's action and it becomes ridiculously clear what happened.

He was talking to Yasu, Yasu jumped into the sea with the gold ingot commiting suicide, Battler jumped in after her, but failed to save her

>He then ends up at the bottom of the ocean.

No he doesn't, he "lives" but loses his memory and his personality changes and he becomes Tohya.

>>12169501
>He was talking to Yasu.
No he isn't.
A lot of shit changes out of fucking nowhere which makes it impossible for it to be anything else than fictional or a meta scene.
The boat, which is a motorboat, changes into a love raft, the sky is clear blue and there is no storm.
Battler then calmly and accidentally falls off with Beatrice and they both embrasure themselves in the water.

It's all bullshit.
If you remove the meta, it becomes so much clearer.
Battler got on the motor boat, he got sea sick and fell.
None of this lovey dobey shit, Yasu never left the island.
As he slowly lost consciousness, he thinks about what happened on the island and then ''dies''.

It's also interesting to note that a lack of oxygen can cause terrible memory loss.

>Yasu jumped into the sea with the gold ingot commiting suicide, Battler jumped in after her, but failed to save her
That's stupid.
It's more probably that Beatrice was the gold and Battler slipped and fell while on the boat.

>No he doesn't, he "lives" but loses his memory and his personality changes and he becomes Tohya.
I've read the VN too, no need to summarize what I already know.
And yes, he does end up at the bottom of the ocean in that scene.

>>12169518
Also, considering the way Battler answers to Beatrice in ep 4, it's very unlikely he accepted her.
In Prime, Battler was told to confess his sin, he was unable, then Beatrice told him the location of the underground base where he could escape and he ran away.
This is why he runs with a single ingot when everything is lost.
When would he and Yasu even have time to get along?

I wonder if there's a way to destroy en masse whatever segment of the breain that makes umineko seem good.

>>12169565
The one in charge of opinions?

>>12169518
>No he isn't.

Yes he is.

>A lot of shit changes out of fucking nowhere which makes it impossible for it to be anything else than fictional or a meta scene.

What part of "It's a fantasy embellished version of Battler and Yasu's final moments." is so hard to get.

>The boat, which is a motorboat, changes into a love raft, the sky is clear blue and there is no storm.

Do you not understand metaphors? It didn't change into a love raft.. it was being compared to a love raft for the couple it was on. Also, the storm ends by October 6th.

>Battler then calmly and accidentally falls off with Beatrice and they both embrasure themselves in the water.

He *dives in* after her, it's no accident at all.

>If you remove the meta, it becomes so much clearer.
Your "interpretation" of the scene actually manages to be more unclear then the straightforward interpretation.

>Battler got on the motor boat, he got sea sick and fell.

Yes. Great idea, remove all of Battler's agency in the scene.

>>12169518
>It's more probably that Beatrice was the gold and Battler slipped and fell while on the boat.

That's incredibly, unbelievably stupid. You're removing all the emotional truths of the scene to replace it with... what? Nothing but idiocy. You're removing every thematic and dramatic point of the scene for a moronic interpretation that doesn't even make sense.

>And yes, he does end up at the bottom of the ocean in that scene.

No he doesn't. Battler fails to reach Beatrice... but then he's suddenly by her again. That is the symbolism of Battler throwing his identiy as Battler away, to make "Battler" an illusion to be with Beatrice.

>>12169596
See, I'm not trying to wipe all opinions. i'm just trying to discover what tiny brain interaction that makes THIS one kick off, and destroy it. naturally, i'd share the tech, only would need a tweak to eliminate any number of dumb ideas.

>>12169618
>Yes he is.
No he isn't.

>>12169618
>What part of "It's a fantasy embellished version of Battler and Yasu's final moments." is so hard to get.
The word ''fantasy'' coinciding with not actually happened.

>He *dives in* after her, it's no accident at all.
Why would he give to get her?
What does Battler know about her?
Fuck all.
It's fake and never happened.

>Also, the storm ends by October 6th.
Alright, here's another factoid, the island blows up by midnight.
And yet there's light outside because it's a clear blue sky.
So how does the storm end and yet have light outside.
It rained the whole time.

>Your "interpretation" of the scene actually manages to be more unclear then the straightforward interpretation.
What's unclear?
He can't fucking stand fast speeding wave motion, it's been established since the start.
Maria teases him about it.

Battler has to escape the goddamn island from blowing up.
Of course he's going to be sick.
Another interpretation is that he went on the boat and the shockwave send him flying in the ocean where he drowned.

>Yes. Great idea, remove all of Battler's agency in the scene.
Battler has no agency after ep 6 since he became the Gamemaster. Featherine comments on this.

>>12169623
That's the point.
It's idiotic because reality sucks. You're the one getting high on emotions. Emotional truth hold nothing. Without love it cannot be seen bullshit only blinds people to things only love can show and ignore reality. Hell, that whole section is a love scene and basically bullshit, especially how it doesn't make any sense how Battler and Yasu would get along like that.
The entire scene was a fiction written by Battler on how he wished his final moments were.

> That is the symbolism of Battler throwing his identiy as Battler away, to make "Battler" an illusion to be with Beatrice.
Meh, to me, it's just Battler dying as he figures out the truth and gets to be with Beatrice in memory and nothing else.

>>12169650
>It's idiotic because reality sucks. You're the one getting high on emotions. Emotional truth hold nothing. Without love it cannot be seen bullshit only blinds people to things only love can show and ignore reality.

Go back to bed Erika.

>>12169650
>The word ''fantasy'' coinciding with not actually happened.

Except for the point where the vast bulk of fantasy scenes in Umineko are meant to reveal a deeper emotional truth then the literal happenings.

Yes, Battler and Beatrice did not have a lovey dovey conversation like that. That doesn't change the love they did have portrayed in that scene

>>12169708
Can't sleep, mysteries and truth need to be uncovered.
I still think Erika is right about her commentary about love but she outright dismisses it.
Love is delusional and there is no proof but by falling into the delusion can something greater than what reality can provide come out of it and become magical; love.

>>12169727
Just because something is portrayed doesn't mean it has to be taken literally either.
Seriously, you saw the scene and just went ''yep, that totally happened that way''.

The emotional truth is that Tohya wrote this fiction as how he wished it would have happened.
Or you remove the meta and you get the actual final moments of Battler before he lost all his memories and drowned in the ocean.
There is no possible context to which Battler would be with Beatrice at the end. There is no way Battler would immediately forgive her, especially immediately after she murdered his whole family.

By the end of the VN, sure, Battler is in love with Beatrice and I'll agree that it's a great way to show their love being eternal, but if you go past it, you can see the truth behind it.

>>12169749
>There is no possible context to which Battler would be with Beatrice at the end.

They meet up after the massacre ends, split up with Eva, and head their own way to the underground dock.

>>12169749
>There is no way Battler would immediately forgive her, especially immediately after she murdered his whole family.

She didn't murder his family. She didn't take a single life. *His* direct family murdered his extended family.

>>12169749
>There is no way Battler would immediately forgive her, especially immediately after she murdered his whole family.
Kyrie and Rudolf were the murderers.

>>12169756
To which I point to ep 4 where Beatrice tells him to confess and he doesn't have an answer.
Afterwhich, Beatrice gives up and goes away.

In every gameboard, Beatrice doesn't care about surviving, she would never leave the island.
Having her randomly go on a boat with the person she loves and then commit suicide is silly.

>>12169760
Ah,the ol' family murder theory.
Because goats always have the right theory.
They killed for money, I know it's true because a witch told me it was the truth!

Either way, Battler knows nothing of her.
He only gets to be with Beatrice at the end because their relationship grew from ep 1 to 8.

>>12169765
Ep 3-4-5 say otherwise.
Battler even says at the start of ep 8 that killing for money is not a motive and never was.

>>12169772
Possible to theorize != true

>>12169778
It's like you're intentionally turning a blind eye to all the evidence about Kyrie's complicity.

>>12169786
This is from when ange reads eva's diary in the manga by the way

I didn't know it was possible not to understand that kyrie and rudolf were the culprits

>>12169772
A goat saying it doesn't make it wrong.

>K He said those things during the fight against the goats, right?

>R Exactly. Those goats who appeared at that point really had guts, hadn’t they? It was Will and Dlanor who said that, but I too actually have some respect for those goats who kept on making theories, even though they were attacked by the red again and again. I accept them as adversaries. Who I am really mad about are those goats who actually gave up thinking.

Episode 8 is about covering up the truth, Erika isn't saying they're wrong, just that other theories exist. The goat who says there can absolutely be no other explanation is wrong, but the goats in this scene represent people from the Umineko world speculating after the events. Thus why all the family keep pointing to evidence that can be found outside Rokkenjima (like Maria's diary, the testimony of George's friends, Shannon's letters to George, etc). So while these goats can't be certain of the truth, people are supposed to be:

>K Do you think that having this many different theories in that certain range is better than denoting one truth?

>R Of course. Because I wanted to leave this margin. I never had the intention to give just one answer, like in Bern’s Trial. But I made it in a way that, if you investigate deep enough, you will get an answer that is beyond doubt.

>K So is it that there is only one truth, like you just said?

>R Of course there is only one, but because by telling it I would have limited the scope of ideas, I made it a bit looser. I was designing a concept that expected a little bit more effort from the reader side. Depending on whether the pivot leg is Beatrice or Ange, many parts of how you look at the story change.

>>12169797
That doesn't prove anything. Eva could have written whatever she wanted, and besides that doesn't actually show Kyrie and Rudolf killing anyone.

>>12169818
The diary is the truth, said in red. And if you use this sort of reasoning, "that doesn't prove anything" then there can be no answer about any mystery anyway. It was already obvious in the VN that the EP7 tea party was the truth, the manga just confirms it for people who didn't get it

>>12169792
Such as?

And you'd better not show me a meta scene where Kyrie acts cold in ep 3 or ep 6.

Ep 1 has Kyrie and Rudolf dying with Battler confirming their death.
Ep 2 has them killed again.
Ep 3 has them surviving but killed later.
Ep 4 has only Kyrie surviving and she gets killed later so she's obviously not the culprit. Not to mention there was no sign of a struggle when she died.

>>12169797
>>12169786
She read... Eva shooting, Rosa smiling (?) and a bunch of other shit as well that I have no idea what is going on except that a lot of people dying.
Rosa is really being creepy in that frame for some reason.

No clue what it means.
I really need have to read the later manga myself.
Seeing bits and pieces is really annoying.

>>12169806
>not understand =/= accept
It's very easy to understand. Too easy in fact.
Eva doesn't tell truth -> obviously protecting Ange
Diary make Ange insane = Ange getting mad in ep 7 tea party.
If the pieces fit, it must be the truth right?

>>12169815
Goats are idiots who speculate and take any easy answer.
The fact is that they keep going is only admirable but they don't go far.
Erika laughs at them for a reason.

>>12169818
Nah, red truth in the diary confirm that what happened on the island, not bullshit fiction.
The problem is that we don't know what was written in the diary.
And the image >>12169786 doesn't give me much clues to that other than people whom I can suspect, namely everyone not shown dead in that picture.
The problem is that people correlate Ange freaking out from the truth to the confirmation of her parents being the culprit because she also freaked out in ep 7.
I mean, why else would she freak out? Has to be the parents, obviously.

>>12169832
>The problem is that people correlate Ange freaking out from the truth to the confirmation of her parents being the culprit because she also freaked out in ep 7.
Ange's speech is implying that she's seen what's in the diary before, and then this is shown (flashback to episode 7 tea party)

>>12169825
>the manga just confirms it for people who didn't get it
What does the manga confirm.

I really hate people who just say ''duh, the manga just confirms it'' and don't show anything.
Yasu having a dick? Manga confirms it.
Kyrie killing people in prime? Manga confirms.
Featherine sucking cocks each night? Manga confirms it.

Ep 7 tea party was not the truth but only a possible worst scenario made by Bernkastel.

>>12169836
Which speech?

>and then this is shown (flashback to episode 7 tea party)
I really need more goddamn context.

>>12169772
>>12169778
It's been confirmed in red that Battler's family are the culprits, you retarded goat.

>>12169772
>Having her randomly go on a boat with the person she loves and then commit suicide is silly.
Battler carried her against her will, just like Kinzo Carried Nazitrice against her will.

>>12169832
The Japanese in the page I posted.

"...I've"

"this..."

"...somewhere..."

"I've told you over and over again, haven't I? There is no gamemaster." (sounds like episode 7 tea party Bern)

>>12169840
>caring someone you never met against their will
Highly unlikely.

Kinzo never carried the original Beatrice against her will, they were in love.

>>12169855
Explain Kinzo suggesting the plan to kill the Italians. The "kidnap" thing is obviously a hint that he literally did kidnap her.

>>12169858
That never happened.
Shit happened at the base and he and Beatrice just killed people.
He then offered to her to stay with him and she accepted.
Kinda hard to kidnap someone and hold them down when you have no money and are on a military base on an island.

He never kidnapped anyone.

>>12169858
Also, you want me to accept Battler and Beatrice falling in love at the end and shit but won't accept Kinzo and Beatrice falling in love while people plot to steal the goal and them surviving by chance and then falling in love because Kinzo kidnapped Beatrice?

>>12169860
It did happen though. It's in the episode 7 tea party when Bern rips out Clair's guts. If you're saying those parts aren't true, one of them has already been confirmed in the manga.

>>12169832
Kyrie and Rudolf's deaths do not cross out their complicity. Note, for instance, that Nanjo dies in nearly every game, yet he is confirmed without a shred of a doubt to be an accomplice.

If Battler's family is completely innocent, explain Ange receiving the key to a safe deposit box, like the family members of the deceased servants. It not only implies that whoever sent the letter knew ahead of time that she would not attend the conference, but also that Kyrie and/or Rudolf planned her absence.

>>12169838
>Ep 7 tea party was not the truth but only a possible worst scenario made by Bernkastel.

Not only is this demonstrably wrong, but it doesn't even make sense. Bernkastel has no reason to show this, if it is made up. There's also no reason to use a big part of the episode just to show Bern torturing lion and ange for no reason over something that didn't happen. Bernkastel is evil, we get it.

Kyrie and Rudolf being the culprits is the only reason anything makes sense. Why protect Ange from the truth if the culprit is just Beatrice aka someone she doesn't even know or care about ? Notice that while Ange hated Beatrice, she wouldn't kill herself over it and was able to accept it just fine.

>>12169860
She was wounded to the point that she couldn't move by herself. Not hard to kidnap her in this circumstance. Also, she had no real reason to fall in love with him anyway. This is all embellished by kinzo "josef fritzl" ushiromiya

>>12169866
>R But that is not wrong, is it?! One of the ideas that Umineko was created from was the fact that „the accomplice was somebody else every EP“. And one of the traps was that „the person who you assumed to be the accomplicee in the last EP is among the victims in the next.“.
Different adults were in on it each time.
>explain Ange receiving the key to a safe deposit box, like the family members of the deceased servants.
Everyone is sent that.

>>12169838
>Ep 7 tea party was not the truth but only a possible worst scenario made by Bernkastel.
It wasn't made by Bernkastel, why would she keep saying there's no gamemaster otherwise?

>>12169832
It doesn't matter that Rudolf and Kyrie died on the gameboards, they're fictional. What you have to look at instead is what the gameboards reveal about the characters.

>>12169840
>Nazitrice
She was from Fascist Italy, not Nazi Germany.

>>12169832
>She read... Eva shooting, Rosa smiling (?) and a bunch of other shit as well that I have no idea what is going on except that a lot of people dying.
>Rosa is really being creepy in that frame for some reason.
It's this. Eva is trying to convince Rosa to go along with her plan to blow up the island, but Rosa won't and tells her to just go to jail.

>>12169872
She's fucking with Ange and Lion because it's funny.

>Why protect Ange from the truth if the culprit is just Beatrice aka someone she doesn't even know or care about ?
Eva never protected the truth, she just didn't talk about it.
Protecting the truth concerning Ange is the only answer people have.


>>12169866
>If Battler's family is completely innocent, explain Ange receiving the key to a safe deposit box, like the family members of the deceased servants.
Yasu gave the card to everyone, including Ange who lost it.
Nanjo's grandchild also got a card.

>>12169880
Because perhaps it wasn't a game.
For each gameboard, there needs to be two sides.
In ep 7 and the tea party, there were no sides.
Thus, no gamemaster.

It assumes that ''no gamemaster = truth'' when it could just be fiction or a story made up.

>>12169887
Fictional depiction of the truth still contain part of the truth.

>>12169876
>Everyone is sent that.
Except that's not the case, you dumb goat. Otherwise, Ange would have received two more keys addressed to Kyrie and Rudolf. Not only that, but those who did receive keys had safes in sequential order, blowing that possibility out of the water.

>>12169893
When did this happened?
I can't seem to remember it.

>>12169838
>Yasu having a dick? Manga confirms it.
Manga doesn't really confirm that. It does confirm that she doesn't get her period, and that she has a face that looks like a boy's when you first look at it (Yasu's own words).

It also confirms that she had polydactyly, like Kinzo.

>>12169880
The fact that Bernkastel showed "The worst scenario" for Ange, means that she suspects that Kyrie and Rudolf might be the culprits. When she finds out about the truth, she freaks the hell out, and doesn't want to accept that "Eva is not the culprit".This shows that Kyrie and Rudolf are probably the culprits.

>>12169901
>It also confirms that she had polydactyly
The VN already showed that in ep 7 with Nanjo so I don't see this as much of anything.

>>12169898
I'm pretty sure Beatrice says in episode 8 that everyone is sent it.

>>12169903
>The fact that Bernkastel showed "The worst scenario" for Ange, means that she suspects that Kyrie and Rudolf might be the culprits
No, it's that it's one possible theory that could have happened and it's the worst.

Nothing more.
Who's to say she doesn't freak out because Eva killed them?

>>12169898
Why would Beatrice send cards to Ange rather than the people who it is intented towards?

>>12169908
She doesn't.

>>12169915
When mail is addressed to the deceased, it is delivered to their next of kin, dipshit.

>>12169899
It's the episode 7 tea party.

Everything from that image matches what happens in the tea party.
>Natsuhi shot in the eye by Eva
>Krauss shot next
>Rosa smile
>Rosa and Hideyoshi shot
>Eva shot
>George dead in the trees with more than one wound, including one at his side (Rudolf had to shoot several times to kill him)
>Jessica dead on what appears to be flooring
>Rudolf at the chapel
>Kyrie in the rose garden

>>12169901
Her sexual organs were damaged when she was thrown of a cliff as a baby.

>>12169895
>Fictional depiction of the truth still contain part of the truth.

Yes but it's in the characterization, not the literal factual events of the game.

1, 2, and 4 had Eva die in the games. Yet we know for a fact that Eva survived. What the games with Rudolf and Kyrie's direct involvement reveal about them is nothing good. In 3 we see how Kyrie acts and thinks, and it's nothing good. She's very violently possessive of Rudolf and has no problem doing cold and horrible things. It's very important that in the fantasy scene, Kyrie wins by "out magicing" the demon.

In 4, well, the entire thing is set up by Kyrie. Kyrie is the one who calls and sets up the "test" and she later calls Battler and tells the wild story about the demons and witches. Kyrie is obviously an accomplice to Yasu in 4... and what do we see? Everything goes to hell and Yasu's plan ends up completely derailed.

>>12169923
Oh, you're that idiot that thinks that calling people for a test in ep 7's tea party being similar to the test in ep 4 is enough proof.

>>12169895
>Eva never protected the truth, she just didn't talk about it.
She had a diary where she wrote everything that happened on the island, yet never showed it to anyone. Come on. If she didn't care so much, she would have showed it to the investigators, then to Ange. It's confirmed in red that everything in her diary is the truth.

>She's fucking with Ange and Lion because it's funny.
I don't see Bernkastel like that. What a shallow character. i'm pretty sure that for all her faults, she respects the game to an extent and knows the truth/cares about it in her own way. her actions end up facilitating the discovery of the truth for Battler, for example.

>>12169933
>She had a diary where she wrote everything that happened on the island, yet never showed it to anyone. Come on.
Yes, and?
You're jumping to conclusions.

Just because she doesn't want to tell the truth doesn't mean she's doing it to protect Ange.
Not to mention Eva dying shows that she gives little shit what Ange thinks and absolutely hates her.

>I don't see Bernkastel like that
Because she doesn't call herself the cruelest witch because she's nice, right?
All she cares about is passing the time.
She gives no shit about the truth, she'd spoil it if she could but can't because Beatrice binds it.

>>12169917
I'm still pretty sure it's confirmed somewhere. I just have to find it.

Besides, Kyrie and Rudolf's actions in the tea party don't make sense if they were complicit. They would have had to have betrayed Yasu right away.

>>12169909
But didnt Ange want Eva to be the culprit? After she read the truth, she says that she won't accept it, and starts saying that her personal truth is that "Eva-oba san killed every one, everything's her fault. Mom and dad and Onii-chan and all the others are just victims...!!"

>>12169952
>They would have had to have betrayed Yasu right away.
Yeah. That's exactly what they did. Are you going to say after six episodes' worth of characterization that it would be out of the question?

As I recall, they weren't even surprised to find Shannon masquerading as Beatrice when they found the gold.

>>12169944
>Because she doesn't call herself the cruelest witch because she's nice, right?

Someone who calls themselves cruel at least has some form of self awareness. I think Bernkastel is partly exaggerating her own cruelty. She is playing the part of the bad guy, but her actions lead the story towards its conclusion.

>Not to mention Eva dying shows that she gives little shit what Ange thinks and absolutely hates her.
Now you're the one jumping to conclusions. there are many ways to interpret this. I think the theory that Eva cares about Ange and doesn't want to hurt her makes more sense. There was no reason for Eva to take care of Ange at all. And again, if she simply doesn't want to tell the truth for an arbitrary reason, she has no reason to write a diary.

there are two possibilities that make sense in my mind :
1. Eva is the culprit and hides the truth to protect herself
2. Eva is not the culprit and hides the truth to protect someone else.

I don't believe eva is the culprit, because Ange wouldn't have such a strong reaction to it. She always hated eva and was half convinced that she played a part in the murders already.

>>12169961
No she didn't.
She just assumed the reason she kept her mouth shut was because she did it.

Hell, she isn't the only one who thought that. Nearly everyone after prime put fingers on Eva but there was no proof due to it all blowing up.
Then a new theory was born that it might have been Kyrie and Rudolf who killed everyone.

>>12169968
>I think Bernkastel is partly exaggerating her own cruelty.
I'd agree to that but she's just passing the time regardless.

>Now you're the one jumping to conclusions
No, Eva, on her death bed, tells that she absolutely hates Ange and the reason she gives her all the wealth is to fuck with her.
If the dairy held the truth and it was damaging, Eva would have simply shown it to her at the end of her life to fuck with Ange.
I just find it odd that if the diary did hold the truth and would shock Ange, Eva would have simply shown it to her since it is more damaging than making Ange alone forever.

>there are two possibilities that make sense in my mind :
1. Eva is the culprit and hides the truth to protect herself
2. Eva is not the culprit and hides the truth to protect someone else.
Oh, I completely agree.
The issue is that if you pick number two, it means Kyrie and Rudolf are the ones who did it since the only possible person she'd want to protect is Ange, right?

Hell, it could be a variation of the two or some shit.
I dunno, maybe Hideyoshi or George killed everyone and Eva doesn't want that to come to light, who knows.
I would protect someone she cares about as well as her honor or something.

>>12169988
>No she didn't.
Yes she did. After she reads the diary she starts ranting about how she won't accept it and that she'll write her own truth in red (meaning with her blood). Then she jumps off the building.

>>12169988
>who knows.
We know. The truth is already confirmed.

>>12169965
Just remember that these are the people who said that all the trust in the world is worth less then a single banknote.

>>12169965
>>12170012
It seems like there could have been much better ways for them to go about it if they were complicit. The way they behave seems opportunistic rather than planned. Not to mention that it's Eva who solves the epitaph, not them.

>>12169988
Ange is a kid. Eva might dislike Ange, but ultimately still handles her with kid gloves.

This goes without saying, but despite their horrible relationship, Ange is never left wanting for anything. Eva sends her to a prestigious school and grooms her to be the next heir. If Eva really wanted to wreck Ange's life, there are far better ways to do it than providing her with her own security detail.

You need to read between the lines to figure out that while Eva is bitter about Ange's rejection, she is still mindful of her duty towards her.

>>12170022
Honestly by the end of her life Eva probably was really bitter about the entire thing.

Ange's rejection was part of it, but I bet the media endlessly hounding her didn't help.

I imagine she would have been in a better place if Ange hadn't flipped out.

Basically this is all Bern's falt.

>>12170017
>The way they behave seems opportunistic rather than planned.
Yes, that's entirely possible. The sight of the mountains of gold might have triggered something. Alternatively, you could argue that they realized they'd have a better chance at solving the epitaph with everyone putting their heads together and decided to only start offing people when they had confirmed the gold with their own eyes.

The only constant in the universe is that Kyrie and Rudolf are pieces of shit. Even in the "good future" where beatrice doesn't exist, they are still the murderers.

>>12170052
Don't forget Kinzo, child rapist and all.

Rosa's pretty bad too.

Honestly, the most moral and sympathetic members of the Ushirromiya adults are a woman who murdered a maid trying to murder a child and a man who embezzled his father's money and hid his death for over a year.

Rudolf's bloodline is the one that most strongly inherited from Kinzo.

Like Kinzo, both Rudolf and Battler are unapologetic two-timers. Also like Kinzo, they are both cold-blooded mass murderers.

>>12170061
What?

Battler isn't a two-timer at all. He hates his father's behavior.

And Battler never killed anyone either.

>>12170061
Rudolf was a womanizer, Kinzo was just forced into a marriage and had someone else he love.

>>12170064
Battler killed Maria after Kyrie forced him to cooperate

>>12170070
No he didn't.

Battler never killed anyone.

>>12170072
Any proof?

>>12170060
Maybe Ryukishi callously murdering his creations with little remorse or resolution was a good thing. They were kind of all pieces of shit. But I suppose I am suppose to ignore their grievous flaws, because love and can't be seen and all that trash.

>>12170064
He two-timed on Beatrice with Ikuko.

>>12170076
I don't have to prove a negative.


There's no evidence Battler was involved, and the idea is presented in story as false and laughable.

>>12170077
> But I suppose I am suppose to ignore their grievous flaws, because love and can't be seen and all that trash.

No you're not. There's a difference between understanding the motivations with someone, understanding why they did something, and ignoring their flaws.

>>12170080
Beatrice was dead by the time Tohya hooked up with Ikkuo.

>>12170077
Jessica, Maria, Natsuhi, Krauss, Hideyoshi and all the Beatrices weren't bad people and didn't really deserve any of it

>>12170088
Beatrice II, maybe. Beatrice I was a fascist. Beatrice III plotted to kill everyone. Krauss hid his father's death and embezzled his funds. Hideyoshi killed Krauss, and was just as money-grubbing as the rest of the adults. Maria helped a murderer. Jessica was a lesbian, and did not properly attend to her studies.

>>12170086
>the idea is presented in story as false and laughable
You just pulled that out of your ass.

>Beatrice was dead by the time Tohya hooked up with Ikkuo.
The Endless Witch is immortal. Go troll elsewhere.

>>12170088
If Jessica really had something going on with Kanon then George was being ntr'd. She would have known Kanon was Shannon, and yet she let that demented shit go on.

>>12170093
Jessica was an attention-seeking whore who faked her asthma attacks.

Does ougon musou kyoku count as canon?(I hear that they are the accumulation of all the goat's theories, but for me that doesn't make any sense.) Does Black Battler even counts as a canon character?(He did appear in Umineko Hane after all and supposedly was the "Bad Battler" in Bernkastel's game) If so, Then i guess it means that Ronove is dies in Hane and beatrice is a big bad bitch all again for no reason. Then again, Umineko Hane has a story called "Jessica and the killer Fan" wich im pretty suuuure its not canon. So i guess Hane might not be Canon at all.

>>12170088
Jessica as apparently not bright enough to realize some pretty goddamn obvious things, so I chalk her death up to the gene pool getting some much needed chlorine.

Umineko is a story of a family of retards and assholes slaughtering one another. It's like a game of Clue, only like half the people playing can't read or form cognitive thoughts.

>>12170101
Jessica was attractive though. She could have married an intelligent man who would benefit the Ushiromiya family, and had good-looking, intelligent children.

>>12170093
She was a fascist, and ? She didn't kill anyone and was pretty young as far as I know. "she was the daughter of some questionable people" (not like the allies were any better) doesn't mean she deserves to die or be raped repeatedly by some madman. Beatrice III plotted to kill everyone, but didn't. Some murderers don't receive the death penalty, she isn't even a murderer. You're judging them pretty harshly. Everything else you mentioned is pretty minor and not deserving of the "punishment" they ended up receiving

>>12170100
Don't know if Hane is canon or not, but Forgery no XXX definitely isn't. The title alone should clue you in that it's just some shitty in-universe fanfiction.

Ougon Musou is not canon.