/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Please use the transparent background image, it looks much better in the catalog.

What happened to the new thread?

Which Anki decks would you recommend downloading for someone who has just started memorising kanji?

>>11760681
Depends on the crutch you want.

>>11760681
n5

>Anki

Nigga, do you even pleb?

>>11760887
That's not Wanikani is it? Seriously stop shitting up these threads WK devs.

>>11760893

I appreciate you saying our product in your post without us having to (:

>>11760899
I'm defaming it. It's not proper slander without the name.

Good luck getting more subscribers when the general consensus of it being shit spreads.

wanikani owns but anki will always be /jp/ culture.

you can use them both simultaneously, its great.

>>11760738
What program is this?

>>11760997
You're too new if you don't know.

>>11760887
it's not japanese, it's waka-japanese :-(

>Wasting months learning kanji one by one instead of reading them within a natural context and at a higher frequency to boot
>Not realizing those example sentences are just stuff from the Tanaka corpus

Download Kanji Senpai and don't look back.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=jp.rodriguez.kanjisenpai.android&hl=en

>>11761362

What's the alternative?

>>11761362
I must be even dumber because I do both.

>>11760738
>still having English in your cards
How pleb can you get?

>>11761362
In regards to the first one:
>do not learn before you understand
>being an idiot

>>11761419
That's what dictionaries are for.
You familiarize with the term the first time you meet it and by the time you meet it a second time you have it already burned into your memory. Seriously, learning kanji is more efficient when done in a real context.
Artificial spaced-memorization is just a way for busy people to simulate the frequency you meet kanji in real life, but there's no other intrinsic merit to this method.

>>11761439
By that logic you can cram a German textbook without any knowledge of German. Both are equally as stupid.

http://www.supermemo.com/articles/20rules.htm

>>11761374
"Reading" at the speed of one page a week because you have to check up every single word and character you see.

That, or giving up learning and spending your free time trolling Anki threads instead.

>>11761524
You should be able to build up a modest vocabulary as you learn grammar, just by learning example sentences. After that you're free to go.
Also, the comparison with Western languages is stupid because kanji are exactly your anchor to understand the meaning.

>>11761369
>tfw no cell phone

>>11761532
With right tools it won't take that long.

>>11761439
To be honest, good luck trying to find words which use kanji with +20 strokes from dictionary if you haven't studied kanji at all.

>>11761654
Why would I have to use a paper dictionary?
All I need is found inside electronic dictionaries.

>>11761673
Did someone say you should use paper dictionary? It is just fact if see kanji you don't know, you need to find it with radicals and number of strokes.

Unless your goal is just to read computer text which can be copy-pasted. If that's your goal, don't give recommendations to serious students, please.

>>11761690
Finding kanji by radicals isn't something that takes a hour to find, especially in case of jukugo if you know a bit about how Chinese characters used to work.

>serious students
"Serious students" like yourself who want to read porn games and seinen comics with laughable grammar?
Here were I live "serious students" are encouraged to buy one of those handheld digital dictionaries which pretty much work the same.

>>11761654

readings aren't in kana?

disgusting

Any resources for correct pronunciation of words? I mean cases like 帰る and カエル which are pronounced slightly different.

>>11761713
It takes time if one hasn't studied kanji at all.

My goal is to able read anything in Japanese under any condition. Of course it is easy to consume computer text with correct tools, but close the ITH and disable Rikaichan for a while, and you'll notice you are a fish out of water. Been there when I tried to read book a first time and only choice was to study kanji.

And again, I don't think I have ever said not to use digital dictionary. Even if technology is more advanced, fundamentals are the same; radicals and stroke count.

>>11761771
Do you mean pitch accents? Some dictionaries like Rikai include information for that.
>>11761775
That's good that you're working on your weaknesses but I've never had much problem transitioning away from tool assisted reading. It's probably because I actually tried to remember if I already knew the word/kanji before scrolling over it. Adding it to Anki didn't hurt too.

Has anybody on /jp/ actually purchased an AJATT program/deck? How was it?

>>11761713
>Finding kanji by radicals isn't something that takes a hour to find, especially in case of jukugo if you know a bit about how Chinese characters used to work.

Indeed, finding kanji isn't hard if you studied kanji. That's kinda the point.

>>11761809
>Adding it to Anki didn't hurt too.

So upon closer inspection you just did what everyone else did. (With a possible exception of wasting some time by learning kanji in a chaotic manner.) Okay.

>>11762026
>butt crawling action
You do understand that there are more than two people on the internet?
>waste time
I guess some part of the 50 hours in Anki that it took me to start reading unassisted could be considered wasted time. Such a waste. Oh look there goes another minute.

>>11762094
Did you just completely miss the point on purpose? I might just believe you're not the original "hurr I learned from reading" guy.

>>11761362
>reading kanji
>not vocabulary
You retarded?

>>11762725
Apparently you are.

>>11762094
Don't you realize that studying kanji is effective because you are supposed to study them in logical order. Studying kanji by encounter guarantees, you will "learn" complex kanji such as 驚 違 議 疑 early which is just stupid.

>>11763897
What deck provides them in logical order?

1 - Get Obenkyou (Android/BlueStack App Player on PC for the newbs)
2 - Go to settings
3 - Change Kanji order from JLPT to school grade order
4 - PROFIT
5 - ???

>>11763962
I wouldn't recommend school grade order for a gaijin. It's only suitable for children who still studying linguistic skills for first time. Example 乙,了and 丈 are learned on eight grade while 曜, 線 and 鳴 are learned on second grade.

>>11763949
Heisig

>>11763989
fuck it I will just keep doing core in that case

>>11761369
I really like the overall feel for this kanjisenpai app. I might be an idiot though, but does this show stroke order in here? I cant seem to find it.

http://www.japantoday.com/category/opinions/view/why-you-shouldnt-learn-japanese

pack it up weebs

>>11764385
Everything about this article and the comments is shit.

>>11764385
For me it was either die in boredom or learn Japanese. There is just nothing interesting content available on other language.

>>11764385
crock of shit article

>>11764385
>>11764420
>>11764445
>>11764508
Read the last paragraph faggots. If you have the determination, he is 90% behind you. He's just being a pessimist, and some of the points are actually pretty valid when you're not clouded by rage and all kawaii 2D waifus.

>>11764516
It's like he nore the commenters have ever been to a foreign country other than Japan. Fucking weeb shits.

>>11764385

He sounds pretty bitter. What a douche. If I gave a fuck about opportunity cost I'd have studied business and be at wall street right now, not shitposting on /jp/

>>11764385
>japantoday

Every day I'm more and more convinced that this site is just anti-Japan propaganda machine disguised as a "news site".
It says a lot that even from a reader's point off view most of these self-styled journalists look extremely unprepared and amateurish about ANY subject.

>>11764585
Coreans...

>>11763897
If 議 is your first kanji ever, you'll simply find out you already know 言,我,羊 when you get to them. So you learn one "hard" kanji and get 3 free ones. Or you learn three "simple" kanji and get one free one. The amount of information you memorize is exactly the same either way. I never understood why some people seem to care so much about the learning order.

>>11764516
I don't think that any point made by someone whose only use for foreign language is work, tourism and picking up girls has any relevancy whatsoever as far as /jp/ is concerned.

>>11764641
But that's only when you actually learn 議, not when you check it a few times with rikaichan.

Doing some things properly saves you from some, but not all, pitfalls.

>you learn three "simple" kanji and get one free one.

That's like saying learning three letters only yields you one free word.

>>11764641
Then the whole "learn kanji in real context" loses its meaning.

>I never understood why some people seem to care so much about the learning order.
Generally, it is easier to learn simpler things first than complex things, duh.

And it really shows that you haven't studied kanji at all because there also would be 義 too. See? That's why you should study kanji from simplest to most complicated. Splitting complicated kanji to simpler kanji is a lot harder than building more complicated kanji from simpler kanji.

>>11764681
>But that's only when you actually learn 議, not when you check it a few times with rikaichan.
That's about how you study not merely the kanji order. If you learn to write a new kanji when you encounter it, you'll "actually learn" it right away.

>>11764857
Go right ahead. You'll end up with a few hundred newly encountered kanji right after trying to read your first real Japanese text, and then you'll be right back to facing the real problem of how to learn them.

>>11763897
Yeah, the first kanji you learn should be simple things like 吾, 寸, 旭, and 圭

>>11766801
Yes, simple things like 五, 口, 寸, 九, 日 and 土.

>>11764730
>Splitting complicated kanji to simpler kanji is a lot harder than building more complicated kanji from simpler kanji.
Unless you practice writing them. Then you're forced to notice all the little parts one by one in full detail.

>>11767694
No, first you'll just notice bunch of random lines. Maybe later you'll start to notice similar shapes, but why invent a wheel again?

>>11766952
Do you really think you wouldn't learn those very quickly by reading?

And if you don't learn 吾 and 圭, then apparently you're screwed, according to your own post here >>11764730

>>11768137

>>11766952 is not me, cunt.

Also nice straw man, try again.

>>11766801
This reasoning doesn't make much sense and will only slow down your learning to a halt.
If you want to familiarize with radicals, there are dozens of kanji primers that show them in detail next to each characters. Many online dictionaries do it as well.
But to cram your brain with useless, ifnot extinct, kanji just because "they're part of something bigger" makes no sense.
The only time it does, it's when a certain radical regulates the on-yomi (the old Chinese reading method I was talking about in another post).
That IS useful and speeds up your learning. It's probably the only merit of KanjiDamage, although I think some more academic materal also points it out.

>>11761115
p-please.

>>11768182
I don't think you know what a strawman is. You didn't make an argument, so I showed how your examples didn't support the guy who DID make an argument.

>>11768265
>But to cram your brain with useless, ifnot extinct, kanji just because "they're part of something bigger" makes no sense.
Did you not realize that I was being sarcastic? The point was that just because you don't know every "subkanji" like 義 in 儀 doesn't suddenly cripple you from learning. Certainly radicals are useful to know, but they are easy enough to figure out or learn at the beginning, and people like >>11764730 are retarded.

>>11768265
Believe what you want. I, unlike you, can write and recognize 2200 kanji thanks to heisig in 3 months. What can you do? See some scribbles and sometimes remember their meaning, but more often than not confuse them with similar scribbles?
I pity you.

>>11768299
My arguing that it makes learning easier if studies kanji from simpler to more complicated. I don't really understand what you are trying to point out.

> The point was that just because you don't know every "subkanji" like 義 in 儀 doesn't suddenly cripple you from learning.
That's straw man argument again. Nobody has ever said it cripples your learning. I was just pointing out, if one plans to learn few sub kanji from one complicated kanji like was suggested in post >>11764641, why not learn them all at once? Why pick few random?

But if we really want talk about this, ask yourself which one is easier to remember:
議 = 　一　口　手　戈　羊
or
議= 　言　義

In my opinion the latter is easier.

>>11768361
You meant the former, the former is the first one, stupid.

>>11768371
Eh?

>>11768361
>My arguing that it makes learning easier if studies kanji from simpler to more complicated
Certainly, but it also makes learning easier to learn from more common to less common. Which is why learning purely from simple to more complicated is stupid. Learning purely by encounter, without knowing a single kanji beforehand, would be problematic as well of course, but I wouldn't immediately call it worse.

I think the best approach is studying kanji alone for a little bit, learning things like >>11766952
and maybe some two radical kanji, and then going by encounter from there. No need to memorize kanji alone unless doing so will actually have a big impact at your efficiency in learning/deconstructing newly encountered kanji

> if one plans to learn few sub kanji from one complicated kanji like was suggested in post >>11764641, why not learn them all at once? Why pick few random?
Because it doesn't really matter. You break it up in the simplest way you can given your current knowledge, and if you learn later then you can update your knowledge of 儀. Yes, you haven't learned the kanji in the most efficient way, but hopefully it has been balanced by the fact that you have learned vocab and grammar, increased your reading speed and listening comprehension, and improved all those other small skills that help you tackle real japanese more efficiently.

>>11768483
What does this 蟱 mean?

Learning vocab is a whole lot more fun in my opinion. It's because you see/hear the words used in daily conversation and once you "understand" parts of their conversation, it becomes motivation to learn the rest of it.

>>11768483
I'll say just one thing. 義 is a common kanji. More common than 儀, in fact. All >>11764730 was pointing out by mentioning this was that someone not recognizing it is probably not very far in his studies. His point stands.

>>11768590
Or they were just breaking the kanji into atomic disjoint parts for the sake of argument.

>>11767900
You don't have to. The point is, contrary to what the "reinvent the wheel" phrase implies, if you study in a random order (and still practice writing), your efficiency shouldn't be affected much if at all. And you might want to study in a different order for all sorts of reasons, like studying things you encounter or going mainly by frequency.

>>11768590
i know that kanji because it keeps showing up in one pece

Is Anki good for LEARNING or just committing to long-term memory? I find myself going over the same kana over and over and not memorizing it, while doing stuff like writing it down or reading works much faster. Maybe it's just the rote memory and how boring it is that makes it feel like it takes longer.

>>11768680
Depends on the type of learner you are. Some people learn more by writing things out while others learn more by listening. Anki is more for visual learners although some decks do have audio in them. Writing is tactile so Anki can't help you there. Of course learning the words is useless if you don't actually try to use those words in reading something.

>>11768483
>Certainly, but it also makes learning easier to learn from more common to less common.
I would like to hear argument why staring studying from common kanji to less common kanji would be easier.

Let me say this. The most important goal of kanji study is to DISTINGUISH them from each other. Let's say if one learn 義 as his first kanji and later comes across with 議 or 儀, it is easy for him to mistake them as 義 because he doesn't know such kanji even exist. This is a true problem when one reads text with uncommon font.

Been there, because I started straight with vocabulary because some photographic memory nigger recommended it. After 1001 kanji confusions. I did RTK and it was best choice of my life. Heisig truly saved my life.

>>11768680
Anki is not made with learning in mind, yes. This is a pity because flashcards can be used for learning, it's just that Anki's shitty inflexible design makes it much harder than it would normally be.

Because of that, kana with Anki seems rather pointless. SRS is for depth, not to learn things you'll be using everyday. To learn things you use everyday you should just keep using them.

>>11764111
>stroke order

>laughing japs.exe

Nobody actually gives a fuck about stroke order

>>11764681
Peraperakun king race

Also


>learning Japanese instead of Chinese

>>11764641
Not sure if Japanese is as logical as Chinese, but I found learning Chinese the complex characters were only easy to learn after knowing the radicals that form them, or other simpler parts

Just my opinion

>>11768735
Your writing is going to look terrible and be hard to read once you start writing fast and don't actually lift your pen for every stroke.

>>11768665
>The point is, contrary to what the "reinvent the wheel" phrase implies, if you study in a random order (and still practice writing), your efficiency shouldn't be affected much if at all.
Next problem will be how to remember them. Unless you plan to write them until they have been burned in your muscle memory. Tip: Nips do that and it takes 12 years.

>>11768841
Nips are also good at Japanese unlike 99.9% of foreigners no matter how or how long they study.

What is Anki? Sorry, I was linked to think thread from another and asking about how to translate something basic

>>11768917
Well, that goes for every single thread.

>>11768716
>I would like to hear argument why staring studying from common kanji to less common kanji would be easier.
Because they get reinforced more. Because you learn things better when you understand how they are used. Because if you associate 胆 with gall bladder and don't know about the word 大胆 then you might as well know nothing.

>The most important goal of kanji study is to DISTINGUISH them from each other.
Yes, which is why knowing about radicals is useful. But for most kanji all you really need to know in order to recognize them is the left side and the general shape of the right side.
義 -> general shape, no left radical
儀 -> 人偏 + general shape of 義

>Been there, because I started straight with vocabulary because some photographic memory nigger recommended it
That's because you probably went in stupidly without even knowing what a radical was. As I said, radicals are useful. Doesn't mean you have to learn a billion kanji in the exact right order to be efficient.

>>11768931
Anki is a SRS (Spaced Repetition System/Software) program that we use to memorize kanji/vocabulary/other useful shit. It comes with many pre-made Japanese decks.

>>11768995
Ah okay.

>>11768984
Actually that was something that confused me. How is it that 胆 becomes an entirely different word by prefacing it with another character?

Especially in the case with radicals, since 儀 is basically two (or more?) symbols combined into one, why doesn't the same happen in the first case?

>>11769050
>How is it that 胆 becomes an entirely different word by prefacing it with another character?
Ask the Chinese. They wanted it to have two meanings.

>>11768745
Man, I've been learning Japanese for 2 years and now almost 2 years of Chinese. And you know what? I'm fucking depressed, I want to go back to Japanese.
I once bought into this "Chinese is going to be important" bullshit, but now I understand that for doing business both languages are equally useless - people worth communicating or doing business with will speak English anyway.
But at least there's many interesting stuff to read and watch in Japanese. China, no matter their huge population fails to produce good OC.
I'm wasting my life ;_;

>>11769099
In Chinese all characters related to body or internal organs have 月 attached.

>>11769131
Used to be 肉, wasn't it? Now people are asking themselves what does moon have to do with anything.

>>11769144
Nope.
肝 - liver (both simplified and traditional)
腿 - leg (both simplified and traditional)
腰 - waist (both simplified and traditional)
肾/腎 - kidney
胃 - stomach (both simplified and traditional)
the list goes on, 月 is everywhere

I'm this >>11769125 guy btw. Having learned both languages to some degree I can say that learning Chinese characters is way easier, not just because of single reading. Radicals/phonetics system really helps to memorize.

Still, I would have better learned to play piano.

>>11768984
>Because you learn things better when you understand how they are used. Because if you associate 胆 with gall bladder and don't know about the word 大胆 then you might as well know nothing.

Sounds like a good argument for using KanjiDamage. For pretending you can read because you have rikaichan? Not so much.

There's a basic work you need to do before you can start actually reinforcing things by practice, and you're going to do said work faster if you do it systematically.

>But for most kanji all you really need to know in order to recognize them is the left side and the general shape of the right side.

If that's how you're learning, good luck telling the likes of 緑 and 縁 apart.

>Doesn't mean you have to learn a billion kanji in the exact right order to be efficient.

There's no "exact right order", there are general common sense guidelines. Learn components before complex kanji. Learn similar kanji together. That's pretty much it. The rest is up to you, or the author of the system you chose to follow.

>>11769050
How can "guts" mean "entrails" and "courage" at the same time? I don't understand.

>>11769156
>for most kanji
Nice reading comprehension dumbass.
>there are general common sense guidelines. Learn components before complex kanji. Learn similar kanji together. That's pretty much it. The rest is up to you, or the author of the system you chose to follow.
Or just learn the basic ones and then learn them as you encounter them. Many people manage to do it, and it's silly of you to complain about it. Just be happy that your method worked for you.

>>11769173
But it actually means the same thing in English... Having the guts to do something.

How do you most effectively utilize amphetamine in your studies jay pee?

>>11769161
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%9C%88
>As part of a compound, should not be confused with ⺼, form of 肉 (“flesh, meat”), which is used for example for parts of the body such as 背 (“back”).
Those are actually meats you see, not moons.

>>11769203
Agreed, but first 3 in my example are definitely moons, not meats.

>>11769210
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%82%9D
No.

>>11769217
Checked in Wenlin, you are right.
Pleco is bullshitting me.

>>11769229
It's pretty weird how it looks exactly like 月. Thus name of the radical is にくづち.

>>11769247
Because it was supposed to look like ⺼ but well, once you write it fast...

>>11769183

He was clearly being sarcastic...

>>11769267
That's what I get for being dumb. Oh well.

>>11768984
>Because they get reinforced more. Because you learn things better when you understand how they are used.
Actually that would be even more confusing, because kanji aren't really used logically in compounds, like your example shows.

>That's because you probably went in stupidly without even knowing what a radical was. As I said, radicals are useful.
And the whole argument has been one should learn simple kanji first which most are radicals. Duh.

>Doesn't mean you have to learn a billion kanji in the exact right order to be efficient.
Has someone said something like that? The whole argument has been that, only thing what should matter in the order is that one should learn simpler kanji first and use them to build complicated kanji. There is no exact right way to study kanji, but logic should be same.

>>11768841
I'll simply srs them, with cards that ask you to write out the kanji for <meaning/readings>.

How long it takes for typical young children, with a young child's attention span, motivation to study, and homework in 10 other subjects is truly irrelevant. While in grade school, did you read even half the books you were supposed to? I sure didn't.

I've been learning kanji by just reading and adding new kanji in Anki as I come by one. If the kanji has another kanji in it then I add it too and use it in my mnemonic. I think this is a good way instead of just going through them all in order.

>>11770914
>Actually that would be even more confusing, because kanji aren't really used logically in compounds, like your example shows.
If learning compounds with a kanji makes remembering the kanji harder, then you're doing so many things wrong I don't know where to start.

And if you think that 大胆 isn't logical, you really did something completely wrong.

>>11771908
12 years wasn't said in with serious intent, but Japanese teaching method are known for is inefficiency, so it is very related if you plan to study kanji like them. Oh I forgot, if you have bad luck depending what you read, it will even more chaotic way, because their order actually has some logic after taking consideration the children's lack of linguistic skills.

>>11772087
It is definitely more confusing because person can hold many different Japanese words linked to one kanji while still learning them. And like I said Japanese compounds are hardly very logical.

>>11772165
Whenever you think Japanese compound isn't logical, something most probably eludes you about it.

I have a build up of about 180 kanji in the "red" all of which I cannot read. Is it possible to set these cards back to new?

>>11772439
Edit->Reschedule->Place at end of new card queue?

>>11772443
Thank you

So I'm currently using WaniKani, Genki, Pimsleur's, and a few other random books to study, but I still feel like I'm not doing enough. On the days I use Genki and the other random books I end up studying for 2+ hours, but on other days I don't do much. Maybe 30m-1h. Is this enough? Is there something else I could do to improve?

>>11774066

Drop WaniKani (it's ridiculously slow and designed to place artificial limitations upon you to suck away your money) and Pimsleur.

Continue doing Genki. Get a vocab deck on anki and do around 30-40 new words a day, more if you can handle it. Start mining your way through some VNs with a text hooker, it's good practice even when you have to look at the definition for every word. You can also do the same with manga or games, it's just more work since there's no text hooker and you have to manually look things up.

If you have the time to spare then 5 to 7 hours a day is very good.

>>11774110
I don't have that much spare time. I work. And I'm not going to drop WaniKani. I'm level 14. I realize it has flaws, but I find it extremely easy to memorize stuff with it.

>>11774110
This is the worst advice I've ever seen. What a terrible way to learn Japanese.

>>11774145

What would you suggest? Fundamentally, there aren't a lot of different ways to learn Japanese. They're all just variations of the same thing.

Learning the kana is so easy that it's not even worth mentioning, grammar is easy, RTK takes a month and it's not even necessary if you don't care about writing, and everything after that point is just building up your vocabulary and reading/listening to shit for practice.

Learning Japanese is nothing but grinding.

>>11774145
This is pretty much the advice everyone gives if they are not a wanikani dev.

>>11768299
It's actually somewhat relevant because 議・義・儀 all have the phonetic-semantic component ギ as onyomi (e.g., 論議・正義・行儀 respectively) , but 我 is ガ as in 我慢.

There's less than a hundred such components (in fact there's a anki deck online called "phonetic compounds"), and honestly I don't think it's super-helpful knowing them unless your kanji/vocabulary are somewhat developed, but it's neat at least.

I'd say that it's not that urgent to know all the kanji at once, but try to get familiar with the first hundred joyo kanji and things will be a lot easier. At first you won't understand a lot of words, so it's helpful using a intro textbook like Genki which doesn't overwhelm you with tons of stuff you can't understand.

>>11768371
ハハハッ

>>11768735
that's because it's about as basic as writing the alphabet. sure you'll get sloppy down the line, but if you're just trying to copy down things by sight you're just an idiot. there's only a few basic strokes which all kanji are built up from.

>>11768841
most kanji are actually quite visually and audibly distinct! it's the simpler ones that you get used to from reading which gives a lot of context to otherwise similar-looking kanji--正義 and 我慢 are words, but not 正我 or 義慢!

>>11774066
keep it up! genki is very accessible and gets to the heart of most of the important grammar--after finishing genki I&II, your vocab should be doing okay, especially if you supplement it with a little extra reading/listening/speaking/writing practice. I like imabi (an online site with lots of detailed information), since the lessons are fairly independent and the examples are very relevant for casual speech as well as for formal/polite language.

interacting in japanese verbally and textually really helps cement your understanding and is pretty indispensable, so if you can't find someone to talk to in person there's skype and japanese-english chatrooms out there

>>11768984
you have to scan top to bottom as well as left to right, e.g., for 義 it's 羊＋我. Stuff like enclosures are a bit trickier, and sometimes it's just a crapshoot, because of mutations in kanji over time.

>>11769156
Distinguish 彔 from 彖.

>>11760469
memrise is the best way to learn jap

prove me wrong

>>11774963
>the first hundred joyo kanji

You mean a thousand (plus all their components whenever applicable). The first hundred is just a bunch of simple shapes that even a novice weeaboo already recognizes. Alone they won't help you learn how kanji work, or with anything at all.

>gives a lot of context to otherwise similar-looking kanji

Now imagine how much more context just knowing the kanji in the first place gives!

>>11775008
水 from 豕, you mean.

More importantly, don't tell this to me, that to person who learns kanji by their "general shape".

>random jap talks (text) to me
>suddenly can't remember anything
>know what they are saying but don't know how to reply
>"Maybe If I think of how a japanese person would reply it'll be easier"
>don't know how a japanese person would reply
>all I can muster is very simple replies and 私の日本語が下手です
I take it the only way to get better at this is to practice, but where would I find japs that would put up with my near retard level of communication?

>>11775841
Use Denshi jisho sentence search.

>>11775008
With enclosures, your mind sees the general shape of the inside, and combines it with the type of enclosure. Really by the left radical I just meant the most obvious radical.

>, for 義 it's 羊＋我
There isn't really anything that looks like 義 though, at least that I can think of off the top of my head. So you would be fine just reading it by context.　But of course when things like 夏頁 or the two mentioned in that other guys post come up you need a different approach, but I was just saying it works for "most" kanji - you can always practice writing or use mnemonics just for the harder pairs, which is what I did (although I've completely forgotten the mnemonics by now). Having context helps too, since you wouldn't be likely to see 頁のセミ

>>11775841
your imaginary friends. i.e., your friends

>>11775849
Reading sentences is a lot different than talking to someone.

>>11775993
What I meant is use dictionary to look example sentence and modify it for your purpose/use it as reference. At least that is what I do when I talk with Nips.

>>11775877
Plenty of characters with 羊 on top. 善着養羨, to list those I remember how to type right now. You are going to have problems with them if you had problems telling 夏 apart from 頁.

And why use mnemonics when the components are already the best mnemonic you could have, and you should have them for free? 夏 has a winter radical at the bottom, it's like ancient Chinese themselves are telling you it has something to do with seasons.

>>11776300
> You are going to have problems with them if you had problems telling 夏 apart from 頁.
I don't have problems with either set though.

i havent done reps since april...

in actuality, is it ever too late to learn japanese? im 25 now and i just dont see myself being able to make anymore progress in anything. even reading things while looking up meanings leaves me flummoxed.

am i just too old?

>>11778292
yes, you stopped being able to learn anything after your 18th birthday, sorry about that

Hey I use anki 1, since I always have and I use the cram feature quite a lot.

I want to get some of the anki files online, mainly the japanese CORE 2000 etc ones, but they're .akpg file, rather than .anki that anki 1 uses.

Is there a way to convert/downgrade the anki file?
Or failing that, if I have to switch to anki 2, what can I do to make it like anki 1 as possible.. and how can I cram?

arigat

>>11778292
While I did take a few Japanese classes in college, I didn't get serious about learning Japanese until I was about 25 (I didn't study any Japanese for a couple years after graduating). I'm 28 now, and I can read manga, VNs, and LNs with few issues. I still have trouble with more technical writing, but that's almost always because I don't know the words, not because I don't understand the grammar or kanji.

My experience has been that you tend to get good at things you spend time on, and the things you don't spend time on you tend to stagnate in (what a ground-breaking revelation). I haven't practiced speaking at all since I graduated college, and my Japanese speaking ability is not any better than a beginner's.

If you're 80 years old with dementia, maybe you can confidently say you're too old, but at 25 years old, I think you still have a shot.

How do you get past the feelings of fear that causes procrastination?

I used to think that I procrastinated about doing my Japanese because I was too lazy to do hard work, but then I got a stimulant prescription from my doctor so that I would be able to focus on anything. The problem now though is that it didn't really fix the problem.

Now I can focus on other things that are 100x harder than Japanese or far more boring and I can stay intensely focused on them the entire day if I wanted to, but I still procrastinate when it comes to learning Japanese. I feel intimidated or scared and I don't understand why. It's not the boredom and it's not the difficulty, so I don't know what else it could be.

>>11779639

>It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.
- Reimu Hakurei

>>11776300
>it's like ancient Chinese themselves are telling you it has something to do with seasons

>>11779322
>and I use the cram feature quite a lot.
Why?

>Or failing that, if I have to switch to anki 2, what can I do to make it like anki 1 as possible..

You're trying to learn a whole new language, but aren't even able to adjust to the features of a piece of software that's slightly different than what you've used so far?

>.. and how can I cram?
With the "Custom Study"-options. Cramming is probably a bad idea unless you're literally cramming a few days before some important test. If you use it all of the time, you're probably doing something wrong

I'm too tired...

I found out that 驫 and 鸞 have 30 strokes. Are there any kanji with more strokes? I'm curious, /jp/!

>>11780501
yeah, kind of

http://nihonshock.com/2009/10/crazy-kanji-highest-stroke-count/

>>11780508
Thank you!
When they showed kanji with 84 strokes, I felt that it would eat me! That's how I was afraid.

>>11780528
It's not that bad, read the text. That 84 stoke kanji is actually just a 12 and a 18 stroke kanji, each repeated 3 times

The ones at the end, with the "unique" strokes are scarier

>>11779639
>a stimulant prescription
Name?

>>11780531
That reminds me of that one Kanij which was read men or something. It had something to do with food or noodles or something

>>11780561
Not him, but I'm using Baclofen. It kills bad mood and you can feel the pleasure of doing anything. Even talking.

>>11780494
I haven't done my reps in 4 days. Kill me.

>>11780601
Me neither. But that's ok, I do 120 reps everyday. Like this I don't get bombarded with 400 reps because I couldn't make it one day

>>11780614
I'm too lazy to even stem the tide. Time to cop out and get the load balancer.

>>11780724
That won't save you from the backlog of four or more days. In my personal experience, rather than helping, it makes it harder to learn new words because they will usually be scheduled after two or three days instead of one, when you will likely have forgotten the word already.

I personally have found that if I have too few reps to do that I don't take them seriously and procrastinate and push them around. If I have about an hours worth I always end up doing it and getting pretty decent results. Maybe the problem for you guys is the same.

>>11780576
There's also that bonnou kanji

why are you even wasting your time with some of the really ridiculous kanji

i just posted some "difficult" ones on my japanese twitter and everyone was just ええぇぇぇ〜？何？

>>11781618
Friendly reminder that 鬱 is now a Jouyou kanji and every educated Japanese is expected to know it.

You probably can't even tell see individual lines in it at your current font size, can you?

>>11781618
灰汁、鼎、憖←これ読めないやつゆとりだろｗｗｗｗｗ

Alright, I got the decks in but now there's a new problem. On AnkiMobile, the sound comes out fine in the Core2k deck, but not on my own. Why? How do I fix this?

Been too lazy lately.

>>11782205
What decks this?

Thinking about switching from core10k to kanji damage again. The order seems more useful as opposed to learning things like 企業 straight away in core.

I caught up.

How do I add the JDIC audio files I downloaded into my anki?

>>11780489
It's mainly kanji learning. For every ten or so kanji I learn, I get 4/5 Compounds per kanji, and add them to a group (A habit from going through the "Basic Kanji Book" kanji books at uni).

I have a main master kanji deck for normal spaced learning/committing to long term memory, but generally for getting up to speed and a little on top of what I should have learned by now (some for uni, some for myself), using the cramming feature to cram compounds is helpful for getting the readings down.

I'm not unwilling to adjust to anki2, just the anki 1 features aid my current way of study really efficiently, and I don't want to lose that.

>>11784744
Just read this
http://ankisrs.net/docs/manual.html#filtered-decks-&-cramming

Anki2 should be ably to do whatever you did with anki1, but setting it up is probably different.

>>11782916
Or just use a tool to sort words in a LN by frequency and use that. Then you know that every word you learn will be useful.

Anyone know of any good tutorials for looking up Kanji? I try and learn by reading and then I can't look up Kanji without knowing stroke order etc.

Do your reps jaypee.

Ever since I set up my own voca deck by using every new word I meet, seems studying has been really hard. I feel I press 'again' all the time. It was much easier with premade voca deck.

>>11786151
>I try and learn by reading

Well, there's your problem. Looks like you're stuck with digital sources and rikaichan for a while.

Lookup by components (e.g. http://jisho.org/kanji/radicals/ ) is your best bet. It won't make it efficient, since you probably don't even recognize the components, but it'll make it possible.

>>11787623
That's just because you already knew many of the words in the premade decks (or at least encountered them before without consciously "learning" them).
Everything you add yourself is hard because you really don't know it and couldn't just guess the meaning from the kanji.

I did ten of my reps yesterday, but I'm getting too many technical kanji in 10k. They are hard to remember, but I want to man up and continue them. Maybe I will write them down.

>>11783536
>the abject terror I sense when realizing this is about equal to my daily load
I'm too scared to miss a day to ever

How does this 'learn kanji by reading' even work?

Seriously I don't understand how would anyone even have a clue how to approach something like this picture without studying kanji.

I know you guys get angry when someone asks for a translation but I'm gonna do it anyway.

Translate please?
I'm guessing it's something like "You're banned" but still, I'd like to know what it says exactly.

>>11791588
You learn by reading and encountering ones you know, which reinforces that memory. It's just like how someone learning english would reinforce that "through" is read as "thru."

>>11791698
My Japanese isn't very good but I tried to translate this for the practice. I think it gives you rough idea.

Because of the restriction set up by the provider, for fixed period of time this program is not viewable.

You have been removed from the channel.

配信者から視聴制限されている為、一定期間この番組は視聴できません。

あなたはチャンネルから追い出されました

>>11791912
Thanks anon.
Pretty much as I thought.

Why are japanese artists such hateful assholes?
I didn't do nuthin'!

>>11791698
>>11792016
what site is this?

>>11791588
The same way you approach it "knowing" kanji? If you knew basic vocabulary you would see that and type あたらしい　たね　の　たべる　ざいりょう and then delete the extras. Maybe you would have to look up the last one.

>>11779384
Thank you for the motivational post! I am turning 25 in March.

>>11793413
>If you knew kanji you'd just type them.

Brilliant. We have to spread the word on this groundbreaking method.

>>11793485
If you've never seen the kanji before you look them up. I don't get what's hard to understand about it.

>>11793534
Have you ever tried to look up a kanji when you don't know any of them?

>>11793571
search by radicals

>>11793571
No, I suppose I assumed the strategy would be "learn the basics of kanji, and then learn by reading" rather than going into reading with zero knowledge. It might be difficult to look kanji up with zero kanji knowledge, but if you know 2-3 hundred of them it isn't that hard anymore.

But even with 0 knowledge you would figure it out pretty quickly.

>>11793413
Your answer shows case where one already knows the kanji in the text. That's not "learn kanji by reading", that's "learned kanji before reading the text".

How do I make my cards bisexual in anki?

>>11794312
Elaborate what you mean by that.

>>11794320
I have to review both back and front part of cards

>>11794341
at the screen where you can edit the card template, there's a [+]-button at the top right
click that, to make a new template, arrange it however you want and it will automatically generate cards for that template

>>11794350
thanks

So I can recognize (and hopefully recall the meaning) of a little over 1000 kanji, but I sometimes still confuse some of them and can't write most of them. Because of this I was thinking of going through RTK just for the hell of it. If I do should I just blaze through at whatever pace while writing down the kanji and stroke order or is there a better way to go through it?

Is anybody using the RTK deck for anki? I recently switched over to it from regular flashcards. Im slightly perturbed because there are several cards whose kanji differs slightly from in the book. Like it looks like a stroke has been sinplified here and there. Whats the deal with this? Im kind of freaking out

>>11795344
Which kanji?

>>11795344
Show some examples. I learned the base 2k using that deck and there were a few kanji which were displayed differently with the fonts my computer was using.
The Heisig edition I had was also newer than the one the deck was based on, so a few kanji changed their places and/or keywords.

>>11795344
Probably different font.

>>11795367
>>11795434

For example, 贈 the "rice field" part on the right had 2 dots in it instead of one single horizontal stroke running through it. For 胞, the backwards S part had an extra stroke that boxed off the top part so it looked like a square with a tail hanging from it.
I was doing them on my phone so I don't know if that displays them in a different font or something. Now that I'm back at my computer checking them they seem fine.

>>11795477
Looks like you have Chinese fonts.

But that's fine. You should just take the opportunity to learn to mentally group variant forms of radicals together. It'll be useful when you encounter characters from outside the Jouyou list.

>>11795477
Yeah, that's a different font. I'm seeing this on my desktop computer as well. I think I've seen someone mention that this is a Chinese variant, but I've never bothered checking whether that was true or not. Either way, there were few discrepancies in total and you can get used to them quickly (or change the font?).

> S part had an extra stroke that boxed off the top part
I'm pretty sure that's not an extra stroke, but simple prolongation.

If you know a little programming, you can quickly modify the deck so that every card would include a picture of the conventional form and its stroke order animation from KanjiVG or KanjiCafé. Perhaps someone has uploaded a deck with these pictures or there is some other way to show the stroke order in the mobile Anki?

>>11795503
>>11795508

I see, well I feel more at ease now.

>>11795503
What this guy said.

You'll eventually run into stuff like 腦 instead of 脳 or 惱 instead of 悩 because of pretentious writers.

曾 is what you're seeing right? It's used in 曾て. 曾 is the classic form of 曽.

This thread summed up:

I just learned kanji naturally through vocabulary
>that's impossible you need to learn the kanji first
Well I did it and I'm telling you it's not very hard and you can start reading and consuming Japanese content a lot faster, plus you learn readings instead of useless meanings
>you need to learn from simple to complex, there's no other way! i'm retarded and can't recognize patterns very well, you must be too!
Well you're wrong because I've done it and can read pretty easily without ever touching kanji studies individually
>YOU CAN'T MEMORIZE COMPLEX KANJI THEY ARE JUST SCRIBBLES SCRIBBLES SCRIBBLES SCRIBBLES SCRIBBLES SCRIBBLES SCRIBBLES SCRIBBLES SCRIBBLES SCRIBBLES

>>11796328
What if I do both? I've been learning kanji by writing them out, but I've also been learning vocab through flash cards at the same time.

>>11796336
Do whatever you want, I was just making fun of the RTKfags. Personally I just learned vocabulary and had no problems with kanji whatsoever.

>>11796328
>plus you learn readings
You learn readings if you use RTK.
>useless meanings
If you learned "learned kanji naturally through vocabulary" then you should have associated a meaning to each kanji so they aren't useless. Or are you simply associating a reading to the kanji and the kanji, for you, have absolutely no meaning at all? Please clarify.

>>11796374
I'm saying the meanings from RTK are useless.

>>11796459
Also I was trying to say that just having a vague meaning (literally a single English word) isn't very much and takes next to nothing to remember, which always surprises me when people think they are making awesome progress when they take a whole 3 months (sometimes longer for idiots that take breaks / scared of learning more than 10 a day / give up and come back multiple times) to essentially associate an English meaning with 2000 characters. Then you end up with 2000 meanings that essentially do nothing because people don't write speak or write in pure kanji, they use combinations called vocabulary, which have a pronunciation. So you're basically at square one again, with 2000 useless (and sometimes inaccurate) meanings. So you start learning vocabulary at about the same speed as someone who didn't learn kanji beforehand because like I said before, the meaning is the easiest thing to learn and it takes 2 seconds. So it's more or less a waste of 3 months, but because people just assume (without actually giving it a real try) that every kanji just looks like scribbles, they mindlessly do RTK, burnout and never end up learning Japanese, or they do RTK, don't burn out, and realize how much of a waste of time it was once they get to a point where they are learning kanji past the jouyou and are effortlessly memorizing them without the use of mnemonics.

>>11796476
I believe you are, overall, criticizing lazy people that don't use RTK completely, as in not doing RTK1-3 which should be done in about 3 months and gives you ~3300 kanji with common readings (as recommended by heisig I believe). Which is close to 50kanji/day or something like that.

>useless (and sometimes inaccurate) meanings

I can see why you can say they are meaningless without a reading, but RTK done properly gives you a good foundation. RTK2's signal primitives are extremely useful for fortifying readings which is important for, well, reading Japanese.

Yeah, some of the meanings inaccurate; however, for the large majority, they are pretty close to whatever compound they are used in disregarding exception ateji like 流石 or something. Like 腫瘍 is straight forward, even more within the right context. Exceptions are easy to deal with.

I don't feel like I've wasted time and I'm glad I used RTK1-3, especially RTK2, and I always recommend going through the entire thing. Mind you, I'm only speaking from Kanji experience and not what I did for effective Japanese studying by the way. I still add kanji when I come across new stuff, but it's rare now.

Thanks for clarifying, I was under the impression you simply associated some reading only and no meaning to the kanji. You need to know the meaning and reading if you ever want to read something like this: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm16182807

>>11796680
I have a question for you, what is the advantage to learning "腫" and "瘍" within RTK, instead of just learning "腫瘍" when you encounter it reading? The way I see it you get the meaning, reading, and a vocabulary. You get the first two with RTK, but it takes slightly longer and you don't really know the vocabulary either. I'm curious to your answer.

>>11796476
The English keywords are supposed to give you a rough idea of the meaning, but is mainly there as a cue for your memory, something to put on the front side of your flashcard so you can review your handwriting(!).

You seem to be under the impression that people do RTK because they want an English meaning for every Kanji. That would indeed be useless, but it simply isn't not true.

The purpose or RTK is the get familiar with and be able to write all jouyou kanji in very short amount of time by using mnemonics. I can't believe I'm typing this out.

>>11796328
Everyone should just use whatever method they believe works best. Uncle Heisig will always be there for them when they run to him crying like the little bitches they are that the kanji overwhelm them.

>>11796459
How do you know?

>>11796328
>but I did it I honki did it!! Believe me!!

We all know the truth. People like that are pretending to know Japanese just because they can see some scribbles and hopefully guess what they mean in right context.

Of course people have right to choose their own method, but whole argument is what is the most effective method from OBJECTIVE POINT OF VIEW taking account that we are just normal human beings who not capable to memorize shapes, which don't hold any sort of link to visual memory, by just seeing them few times.

Just because you did it on hard, illogical and chaotic way, holds no weight here.

>>11796459
Who cares about meanings? That isn't the point of studying kanji.

>>11796883
Which is easier, remembering something as two things you already know put together, or memorizing everything from scratch?

>>11796883
RTK is not meant to teach you vocabulary. RTK is about writing out characters upon hearing a keyword. It's something you can rush through in the beginning of your studies (when all you see is random scribbles) to lay a solid foundation.

I'm sorry to hear that you wasted your time, but maybe next time you should do some research first, and see what your goals are.

>>11795477
>>11795508
Chrome mixes Chinese and Japanese characters. I switched to Firefox because it was very annoying.

Eh, if you're not learning the meanings of characters, then you are missing the whole point of kanji.
When I come across a new English word I didn't know before, I have to look it from the dictionary because there's no other way. If I come across a new kanji compound but I still know the characters it is made of then I can guess the meaning because they are usually logically structured.

>>11796883
If amount of information is just what matters, why not just cram few Japanese dictionaries? You'll learn EVERYTHING.

Of course advantage of RTK is, it is generally easier to learn one small step at a time.

Why do people seem to argue intensely for days and weeks about how RTK/learning kanji keywords is not necessary?

Does such a simple task really warrant such an intense debate? It would be understandable if going through RTK/KD/whatever method that you choose was some sort of hellish endeavor that took months, but in reality, it takes only slightly longer than learning the kana.

When I was going through this, I would wake up in the morning and go through 50 new cards in my kanji deck. This only took about 30 minutes (including the time it took for doing reviews) because they're ordered so that they build upon each other in a logical order that allows you to constantly reinforce your recognition of many different kanji.

I would then do grammar, vocab reviews, some mining with a VN or manga, and after that was completed I would still have a few hours left so I would knock out another 50 new cards in that kanji deck.

Anyway though, my point is that it was fairly effortless to maintain a pace of 100 new cards a day. It only took about 21 days to go through that entire deck of 2,136 kanji. That's a very small amount of time.

Whether it's very useful in helping you to memorize vocab or only marginally useful are both fairly irrelevant when it requires such a small amount of time to complete. Everyone might as well just do it really quickly and see if it helps them.

>>11796980
I don't think he realizes that learning small things is easier for the brain along with simple associations and has already been scientifically documented to be faster. I think the introduction in RTK1 explains this.

Wow, congratulations you are a special snowflake and learned it the hard way! Amazing!

>>11796981
Some words are sometimes logically constructed by using the meanings, but mostly not. They can be used as mnemonics for compounds, but that's it.

Hardest part of kanji is to distinguish them them and that is the point of kanji study.

>>11796986
Because people don't want to admit they are wrong.

Or they have photographic memory.

がトンキニーズの町。われわれの新天地だ。さあ、アルチェ、ついたぞ。ここがトンキニーズの町。われわれの新天地だ。さあ、アルチェ、ついたぞ。ここがトンキニーズの町。われわれの新天地だ。さあ、アルチェ、ついたぞ。ここがトンキニーズの町。われわれの新天地だ。さあ、アルチェ、ついたぞ。ここがトンキニーズの町。われわれの新天地だ。さあ、アルチェ、ついたぞ。ここがトンキニーズの町。われわれの新天地だ。さあ、アルチェ、ついたぞ。ここがトンキニーズの町。われわれの新天地だ。さあ、アルチェ、ついたぞ。ここがトンキニーズの町。われわれの新天地だ。さあ、アルチェ、ついたぞ。ここがトンキニーズの町。われわれの新天地だ。さあ、アルチェ、ついたぞ。ここがトンキニーズの町。われわれの新天地だ。さあ、アルチェ、ついたぞ。ここがトンキニーズの町。われわれの新天地だ。さあ、アルチェ、ついたぞ。ここがトンキニーズの町。われわれの新天地だ。さあ、アルチェ、ついたぞ。ここがトンキニーズの町。われわれの新天地だ。さあ、アルチェ、ついたぞ。ここがトンキニーズの町。われわれの新天地だ。さあ、アルチェ、ついたぞ。ここがトンキニーズの町。われわれの新天地だ。さあ、アルチェ、ついたぞ。ここがトンキニーズの町。われわれの新天地だ。さあ、アルチェ、ついたぞ。ここがトンキニーズの町。われわれの新天地だ。さあ、アルチェ、ついたぞ。ここがトンキニーズの町。われわれの新天地だ。さあ、アルチェ、ついたぞ。ここがトンキニーズの町。われわれ

>>11797204
Translate it, weebs.

>>11797204
>われわれ
Definitely how I'd refer to myself once I can talk Japanese.

>>11797073
>Some words are sometimes logically constructed by using the meanings

Like, 99% of them. Maybe you're autistic and unable to deal with metaphors?

>>11797294
A lot more than 1% are ateji

>>11797204
>>11797287
But that's ancient chink shit.

>>11797308
I admit I don't know detailed statistics. They're nowhere near a majority, though.

>>11797308
>>11797324
Also, many words classified as ateji are actually jukujikun with spelling chosen exclusively for meaning.

>>11796986
I kinda feel bad now. I took more than 1 year to learn kanji.

>>11797294
>>11797308
Well could be I am too autistic. Example, explain me how 売春, 鬼畜, 引用 & 脇腹 do make sense. I have learn them tomorrow.

3 days since I've done my reps. Having real trouble memorising the kanji recently. Might be my 3 faps a day and 14hrs sleep.

>>11797391
youre slipping man.

>>11797389
売春 - selling spring - obvious metaphor/euphemism. There are other (rarer) terms that treat 春 as a substitute for sexuality (and a common 思春期, but it may just as well be referring to "springtime of life" instead).
鬼畜 - "ogre" animal - obvious metaphor with several direct English equivalents ("beast", "animal").
引用 - 引 is used to describe quotations. I'm not sure if it's a metaphor (you "pull" words from somewhere) or just a regular secondary meaning, anyways, that makes it a pretty direct: quotation use.
脇腹 - side of the abdomen - looks like a sum of parts to me.

>>11797460
Quite cryptic to be honest.

>>11796948
> Chrome mixes Chinese and Japanese characters.
That picture was taken from Firefox 26.0, so it must all depend on the default font.

I'm actually really confused why there aren't two separate characters in Unicode for such kanji if they are actually written differently in different languages.

>>11797478
>I'm actually really confused why there aren't two separate characters in Unicode for such kanji if they are actually written differently in different languages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_unification
People wanted to save some space in the unicode character set. It was a stupid idea, and now we're stuck with it.

おい、貴男は違うドアーを潜ったと思う、革クラブは２ブロック前だぜ

>>11796931
Which is easier, memorizing the first, seventh, eight, and tenth letters of the declaration of independence, and then coming back 2 years later and memorizing the first sentence? Or just memorizing the first sentence?

>>11796905
>The purpose or RTK is the get familiar with and be able to write all jouyou kanji in very short amount of time by using mnemonics. I can't believe I'm typing this out.
Not that guy. I agree with that, but you need to realize that most people who recommend RTK recommend it even for people who don't care about handwriting. They act like you need to do RTK or kanji will just look like scribbles, which is retarded. I don't think most people disagree with RTK being the way to go if you actually want to learn writing early in your studies (If you learn writing later on in your studies, you can just use a japanese keyword instead)

What are some good podcasts or radio shows for easy listening comprehension?

>>11798019
Which is easier, reading when you know letters, or reading when you don't know letters?

>>11798031
I think you need to realize that a vast majority of people do not have photographic memory.

I just can't into vocabulary, just some weeks ago started the core 6k deck and, every word was like the same. I would stare at it, stare at the example, say it out loud a few times, then press Good and 10 minutes later, I'd start "it was hajiru? himeru? kimeru? tojiru? kakeru? Oh good it was one of those I said.."

Teach me your vocabulary secrets, jaypee

>>11798961
I make my own vocab deck and add words I don't know from VNs. The bad thing about this is that I need to waste 2~3 hours once in 3 or 4 days adding new cards to it, since I stack the sentences and then later on I scroll through them adding the words I don't know.

>>11798961
Give up.

>>11798961

Coincidentally, I am currently adding to my deck all words I don't know while reading Yotsuba.

I've been studying for almost a decade (very inefficiently), so my experience is probably somewhat distant, but the problem might be that you're not adding "useful" words. The words I add are ones that I encounter while using the language anyway, not things I just add for the sake of adding - I tried that at one point, grinding vocal lists, and had similar issues to you. I had no feeling for the words at all, despite them not being difficult, so I couldn't remember them.

Going through images and translating the basic dialogue on them is probably a good place to start. That's the first sort of thing I can remember being able to do, and it has the added usefulness of giving your images new context.

>>11797378

>I took more than 1 year to learn kanji.

How?

>>11799006
I was going through kanji damage, 10 kanji per day. I had to travel and forgot to bring my cellphone so I could do my reps, so I came back with like, more than 1000 cards waiting to be reviewed, so I decided to give up and use a different method. I started all the way back, now writing the kanji instead of memorizing them through reps. In the beginning I would often get lazy and end up reading VNs, instead of writing them every day, so I ended up skipping like 3 weeks of kanji writing (which was also 10 per day). In fact, I'm still writing them, but I focus more in grammar and vocab nowadays. Going through kanji is pretty easy now that I got used to it.

>>11799006
It takes more than 10 years for the Japanese to properly learn all 常用 kanji. What idiots, right?

>>11799023

When I finish my kanji deck, I often imagine myself laughing and kicking sand into a Japanese child's eyes for being so pathetic that I could do in a month what took him years.

It makes me wish I could go to Japan right now and start laughing and spitting in the faces of grade school children.

>>11799033
You should take the kanji kentei test and humiliate all those japs with your vast kanji knowledge.

>>11799002
Oh boy, I've just crossed my 4 years' study mark and I still realize that I don't know a ton of words and expressions from Yotsuba and K-On, even though I can guess their meaning from the context and their kanji most of the time. I'm currently on a long OCD crusade to learn every single word and expression from them.

It's so rare and invigorating to see someone here who keeps on the hard work and doesn't hush up that he didn't become proficient in just a couple of years like most people here do.

>>11799044

>proficient in just a couple of years like most people here do

The average person of the world, learning a language by themselves, especially if it is their second, cannot do this.

4chan is full of people who are in another league. There is no point even attempting to compete with them. The notion of, for instance >>11796986 is impossible for most. I'd get overwhelmed before the end of the first week, having hundreds of cards that I haven't even learnt, with no context, to grind through every single day, yet they act as if it is trivial.

>>11799074

>4chan is full of people who are in another league.

I'm pretty sure that most people in this thread are just on drugs. Those things aren't challenging if you're on drugs since you can just take the drugs, sit down in front of the computer, and pound through repetitive memorization drills for hours and hours.

Everyone I know who has done very well in Japanese in a very short time have all either been autistic and obsessed with Japanese or they have been on drugs. There's just no other way to summon up the required amount of motivation and focus to do nothing but study every day.

>>11799074
For me I believe that's a physiological thing that I can't learn more than 5-10 words per day. I mean, I could do roughly like >>11796986 and cram 100 words or kanji a day within a single month into my head, but then they'd just poured out of it unless I spend the next few months in constant repetition to transfer them into the long-term memory.
I know that my memory is bad and I'm really lazy, but some posts make me think that people assume they have "learned" something if they looked it up in the dictionary and could recognize the word the next day.

>>11798401
>Which is easier, reading when you know letters, or reading when you don't know letters?
You made the same mistake twice in a row. Again, you failed to account for the time it took to learn those letters. And in that case the argument works backwards: Which is easier, reading when you already know words, or reading when you don't know words?

I was dropped on my head three times as a baby and have an IQ of 86, but I learned all the kanji in a week and am currently employed as an editor for a publishing company in Japan. If I can do it so can you.

>>11798961
How many times must you be reminded? You can't learn Japanese.

>>11799303
Can I learn Corean?

>>11799359
can you eat dogs?

>>11799657
Is this a question of physical ability or willingness? The answer is yes either way.

Is Kanjidamage actually a good deck to use? Because every time I try to get started again I just end up laughing at the English parts.

>>11799142
>You made the same mistake twice in a row. Again, you failed to account for the time it took to learn those letters.

Funny, because that's exactly what you did. I took the time it takes to learn the letters into account and chose a faster and more efficient way through that step. You just chose to operate on a illusion that it's costless.

>>11799665
>Is Kanjidamage actually a good deck to use?

Apparently not. SRS decks should be limited to the absolute possible minimum of information, just the exact important facts that you want to recall.

Now, is KanjiDamage a good guide to use? Yes. Just read the site, don't put it into Anki in its entirety.

Do use シャブ　to increase your mental powers?

Do any of these decks have stroke order?

>>11799754
Use KanjiStrokeOrder font for the kanji field.

What's the easiest way to look up names?

Names that are written in kanji are so confusing. How do I know which reading to use?

>>11799804
You don't.

>>11799804
Just grind them all.

>>11799797

How do I apply this font to the whole deck? I followed the steps but it only works for individual cards.

>>11799804

Type out various combinations of the readings with IME until the name that you are looking up appears in that drop down selection menu that IME has when you're writing things.

For example:

>Looking up "龍錦"
>龍 -　りゅう　～　りよう　～　たつ
>錦 -　にしき
>りゅうにしき - No names appeared
>りょうにしき - 両錦 appeared and doesn't seem to be a vocabulary word, so it must be a name, but it's not 龍錦 so that's not the name I'm looking for.
>たつにしき - 龍錦　appeared and I now know the correct pronunciation.

>>11799804
There are dictionaries of names, such as:
http://jisho.org/words?jap=&eng=&dict=enamdic

>>11799684
>Funny, because that's exactly what you did
But I didn't. Nice try though.

>>11799853
>>11799684

>Arguing this much over something that takes less than a month to do

Why?

>>11799863

みせものねえよ！
文句あるか？！

>>11799885
文句あるよ。
てめえらホモ見たい。

>>11799863
Go do Rosetta stone anon. It takes less than a month.

The Japanese on display in these threads always seems like a good reason to ignore all suggestions in the thread.

who yakuza here

Everyone is in such a hurry. Just take it easy man.

>>11799142
He didn't. Overall spent time on learning is shorter with more effective method, such as RTK.

>>11799921

If you stop moving then you die

>>11799898

What examples of bad Japanese did you see?

Have you grown out a scholarly beard yet?

All scholars of Japanese who are worth their salt have grown out beards as a sign of dedication. Traditionally, a scholar of Japanese will stop shaving on the first day of his education and will only shave if his dedication wavers and he stops studying regularly.

This way the thickness and length of the beard acts as a way to show how dedicated you are and how long you have been studying.

>>11799954
I actually have been.

>>11799970

How long is it?

>>11799954
Can I settle for a cool pompadour?

>>11799954
This thread isn't about scholary.

>>11799954
>22
>can't grow a beard

life is suffering

>>11799927
>Which is easier, reading when you know letters, or reading when you don't know letters?
>Which is easier, remembering something as two things you already know put together, or memorizing everything from scratch?
He clearly did. Your claim doesn't matter, because regardless of whether it is true or not, that guy still didn't take into account the time to learn kanji.

And really, if even if you do RTK3 and learn 腫 and 瘍 separately, it could be years before you actually learn the word 腫瘍. It's one thing to learn the kanji and then soon after learn the vocabulary, but in a case like that it's completely different because you have to put work into maintaining the kanji until you eventually come across the word using them.

By the way, as someone who learns through vocab, I couldn't recall 瘍 before this thread (after looking it up to see if I knew words using it, I saw 潰瘍 which I know), and I haven't seen 腫 used with the onyomi. But after looking 腫瘍 up once I remember the reading and meaning. Oh no so hard, how could I possibly have done that without memorizing keywords for the kanjies! It's impossible!

>>11799986

>that guy still didn't take into account the time to learn kanji

Less than a month.

>>11799991
Of the arguments for RTK, the "it doesn't take very long" is one of the worst ones possible. See >>11799888

>>11800000

The only problem with doing Rosetta Stone is that it's so terrible that it actually harms your future progress and will ingrain a bunch of terrible habits into your head.

Learning the keywords for kanji, while not necessary, is very useful if you have a bad visual memory or if you don't want to be completely dependent on copy-pasting everything into online dictionaries to look up unfamiliar words.

Just look at the example that you gave.
>I couldn't recall 瘍 before this thread (after looking it up to see if I knew words using it, I saw 潰瘍 which I know), and I haven't seen 腫 used with the onyomi. But after looking 腫瘍 up once I remember the reading and meaning.
You had to copy-paste that into jisho, but what if you were playing a game or reading a manga? You don't have the luxury of being able to copy-paste things into an online dictionary, so now you will have to do a radical search or write it out in some kanji recognition software, both of which will be a pain in the ass if you learned everything through vocab and don't know anything about radicals or stroke order.

Had you gone through RTK though then it's the easiest thing in the world. Don't even have to bother with a radical search or stroke order recognition programs, even though you could easily do either if you went through RTK, since you will already know what the character means and you can easily look it up by meaning on jisho.

>>11799986
It appears to me your problem seems to be that you like assuming things. This may make it hard for other people to discuss with you, since they usually expect their conversation partner to reply to what they actually said.

>it could be years before you actually learn the word 腫瘍

Not everyone learns at your pace.

>you have to put work into maintaining the kanji

No, you actually don't. But if you do decide to maintain kanji, there's this tool called Anki that lets you do it almost effortlessly.

>how could I possibly have done that without memorizing keywords for the kanjies! It's impossible.

It's (almost) impossible and you haven't, that's the point. You've just memorized them in a roundabout inefficient way.

When I was still learning kanji I did 250 a day. If learning the basic 2000ish kanji takes you more than a month then you'd better just quit because obviously you have no motivation.

>>11799986
>it could be years before you actually learn the word 腫瘍
>years
Not him, but I learned it from Eroge and see it once in a while. And it knew, from context and the meanings of each kanji, what it was so I didn't bother adding it to my studying deck. I think maybe I checked it on my j-j dictionary once or something when I first came across it after to be sure.

>how could I possibly have done that without memorizing keywords for the kanjies
I was originally the guy that asked you about this, but I thought you did associate a meaning to a kanji, just not using RTK's meanings because you obviously think it's a waste of time or whatever. So you're saying you don't? Kanji, individually, for you, have no meaning? This is the second time I asked man, so please be clear because I want to know how you deal with made up words in fantasy/sci-fi material, chuu2 stuff(like the KKK nicovideo I linked), and other stuff that require the reader to know individual kanji meanings.

>>11799974
An inch.

Successful otaku learn 100-200 kanji a day.

>>11800037
What's a deck for just those basic ones?

>>11800049

Wild and extreme otaku learn 400 kanji a day.

Who WILD here?

>>11800029
I went through like 300 kanji in RTK before stopping. So I don't think it's useless, just that the main benefits are, as you say, learning about radicals and stroke order, not the actual learning of keywords for each kanji. So I don't think 2000 is worth it, given that you won't learn words for a lot of them until much later.

>Don't even have to bother with a radical search or stroke order recognition programs
But you do. It's not like it's trivial to find a word in the dictionary when all you know is keyword for the kanji. If you know 腫れる then you can type that, remove the excess, and look it up. But if you don't know any actual words with them you're still gonna need some roundabout method to look them up.

>>11800035
I haven't assumed anything, I'm speaking from my own experience. You're speaking from your assumptions about the experience of people who used a different method from you.
>It's (almost) impossible and you haven't, that's the point
But I can and I have. And there's plenty of things with two kanji I've never seen before, like 蚯蚓, that I remember perfectly after the first or second time seeing it.


>>11800040
And you knew both readings? Or did you just ignore it since you know the meaning. Because the latter case is where I can see RTK being very useful, but personally I prefer knowing the readings of everything.
>made up words in fantasy/sci-fi material, chuu2 stuff(like the KKK nicovideo I linked), and other stuff that require the reader to know individual kanji meanings.
Do you think the japanese associate english keywords to every kanji? I'll give you a hint: they don't.

>>11800061
I'd love to, but I'm out of the kanji to learn. I already memorized everything that's in the unicode, I feel like there's nothing left for me to do.

Maybe it's time to start learning vocab now.

>>11800064

>It's not like it's trivial to find a word in the dictionary when all you know is keyword for the kanji

Sure it is. There's a meaning/keyword search bar on jisho under the kanji section.

http://jisho.org/kanji/

>>11800069
Ok, so it makes it slightly more difficult than if you know a word but easier than if you've never seen the kanji. I still think it would be better to just learn the word for any rarer kanji.

>>11800061

I take my WILD otaku pills, listen to western delinquent music such as this ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBn0dmRKs-E ), and then BLAST through 500 kanji.

I'm an unstoppable and WILD otaku.

>>11800070

>I still think it would be better to just learn the word for any rarer kanji.

I agree for anything past the jouyou kanji and I think that RTK3 is pretty useless for this reason, but the first 2000 or so kanji are so basic and easy to learn that it's easier to just get it out of the way since it makes learning vocab much easier and helps you quickly recognize words, improves memorization retention with vocab, and makes it easier to look things up.

Once you start doing individual kanji study past the jouyou list then diminishing returns quickly set in and, like you said, it would have just been easier to learn this rare kanji in the context of the word that you're encountering it in.

>not passing 漢検一級 15 times in a row by the age of 17
Are you even trying?

>>11800079
>but the first 2000 or so kanji are so basic and easy to learn that it's easier to just get it out of the way since it makes learning vocab much easier and helps you quickly recognize words, improves memorization retention with vocab, and makes it easier to look things up.

And I disagree, and would claim that diminishing returns sets in much earlier. Perhaps a bit later than the 300 I did, but I don't think 2000 is necessary. Especially since with VNs many non-jouyou kanji appear a lot more than many jouyou. But I'm not telling anyone not to do Heisig, I just want RTKfags to shut the fuck up about RTK being infinitely more efficient because they are just plain wrong. Especially since, as you say, after the first 2000 you're learning the next 2000 through vocab anyway.

>>11800087
I passed these tests at least 50 times in 3rd grade. So there.

Are there any kanji decks that use less retarded mnemonics than the ones used in the Kanji Damage deck?

>Glen DANzig uses his manly strength to harvest the rice in the field. While listening to DANzig.

It makes no sense. I know it's crazy because the Kanji Damage guy is trying to shoehorn in the readings and so he has to find some way to fit them in there, but I'm not trying to study that right now so it's just getting in the way. I'd prefer some more coherent mnemonics that only focus on the keyword.

>>11800091
Kanji Damage sounds really gay, even worse than RTK. Why don't you make up your own? Think of a strong really hot man (no homo) working out on the rice field.

>>11800085

How good is your visual memory? I did the vocab only approach with Core10k for about 3,000 words and I had to drill that over and over through pure rote memorization just to remember them at a 50% retention rate, and even so, my visual memory was so shitty that I was only remembering the general shape of all of the characters used in that word, so if you were to change the ordering of the characters then I suddenly wouldn't recognize any of it.

If I had continued to go through that route of vocab-only then I have no doubt that my vocabulary would be awful. I had to set aside about a month to go through the jouyou and after that it was like I was actually seeing kanji for the first time as formations of simple and recognizable characters, rather than the hazy clusterfuck of scribbles that I previously saw them as.

All I'm saying is that I think there are two unique types of learners here, one being people with a really good visual memory and the other being people with shit visual memory. I fall into the second category and no amount of vocab grinding would have ever given me any degree of decent retention if I hadn't gone through individual kanji study.

>>11800064
>And you knew both readings?
Yes I did, I went through RTK1-3 and know the readings and meaning. That's why I went on explaining why RTK2 is very useful for fortifying readings.
>Do you think the japanese associate english keywords to every kanji?
No, I believe they associate a Japanese meaning/reading to a kanji. For example:
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/srch/all/翳/m0u/
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/srch/all/腫/m0u/
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/srch/all/瘍/m0u/
Another Japanese online Kanji dictionary:
http://kanjitisiki.com/
Otherwise the stuff I have read where they play with kanji meaning in must have been a delusion.

I'm not sure why you keep on evading my question. Hopefully the third time is the charm. Kanji, for you, have no meaning individually?

>>11800110
>How good is your visual memory?
I don't really know. Honestly, I had pretty shitty retention when doing reps (not anki, but it was the same thing), but then once I went into reading I started learning like crazy. Anyway,

>>11800114
You only asked me once, the first time was some other guy. The kanji gain their meaning from the words using them. This is, in my opinion, much more useful than associating a single meaning to the kanji, because I think it matches more closely how japanese people think of it. For example, verbs using a kanji often have a stronger impact on the "meaning" than jukugo using it do. 腫 may have the meaning of tumor as a keyword, but the meaning of swelling is stronger because of the verb 腫れる. So kanji don't have a single word meaning, but they do have a meaning.
>No, I believe they associate a Japanese meaning/reading to a kanji.
They associate a meaning, but not a single word meaning. It's, I believe, closer to what I described above. I don't know why you would think they associate a single reading to it. When you see people describing kanji in their name, they usually give a word using it.

>>11800110
Not him, but I quit RTK after about 1000 kanji, and started doing core2k exclusively. Me retention rate was really good (around 90%) and I actually learned kanji from just reading them and seeing them in context. A few months later I went back to RTK, to finish it, and I realized that I knew how to read (in either kun or on) most of the remaining kanji.

Are there any delinquent games aside from the Yakuza series?

I need to find something to practice with, but I'm not really in the mood to play cute VNs or JRPGs. I want to play as some Japanese delinquents who live fast and die young on the streets of Japan.

>>11799986
Let's count the time then:
Kanji shape/meaning part: One who does RTK learn after because of effective and logical method.
Reading part: Probably identical time
Vocabulary part: One who did RTK learn faster because he already holds strong links to kanji and can use them to remember the meaning of the word.

Basically 'by encounter' strategy is like trying to build bridge in one night while and repairing mistakes during next few years. With RTK first, it's done in small parts in logical order which are done well.

>but in a case like that it's completely different because you have to put work into maintaining the kanji until you eventually come across the word using them.
People who have done RTK don't know term 'put work into maintaining the kanji'. After RTK, remembering kanji are like riding a bicycle, one remembers them rest of his life and it doesn't need maintaining. That's why it is called Remembering The Kanji. Seems you have just proven how ineffective learning kanji by encounter is.

>>11800159
>After RTK, remembering kanji are like riding a bicycle, one remembers them rest of his life and it doesn't need maintaining.
So you never failed a single rep unless it was the first day seeing that kanji? If so, maybe you're the one with the photographic memory.
>That's why it is called Remembering The Kanji
Yeah, and pimsleur makes you fluent in 3 months. Language teachers HATE him!

>>11800124
To be clear, I asked you three times so far. I just wanted to know if you associated a meaning to a kanji or do kanji, individually, meaning nothing to you.

>>11800114
>>11800040
>>11796680

Now,
>I don't know why you would think they[Japanese] associate a *single reading* to it.
Where did I say, "The Japanese associate a single reading to a single Kanji."? I just said, "No, I believe they associate a Japanese meaning/reading to a kanji.". I know very well Kanji have multiple readings.

Back to kanji meanings, the very first example for 翳, "物におおわれてできる陰" is the associated meaning to 翳. How they can read through made up sci-fi/fantasy made up words is because there's a meaning per kanji and I believe you agree with me here.

I believe you, sort of, indirectly answered my question. You've associated a Japanese meaning to individual Kanji, right? So, do Kanji, individual, have a meaning to you?

>>11800167
Actually, I can see my mistake, I should have said "associate Japanese meaning(s)/reading(s).

My mistake.

>>11800167
Well, to answer your question about made up words directly, I understand them by not being stupid. They're made up words. They don't need to be analyzed and broken into parts. The kanji may give an idea of what the made up word means, but really the meaning of the made up word comes from what it refers to in the fantasy universe.

A 劔冑 is a 劔冑. Trying to break it into parts doesn't really offer that much insight into what it means.

>>11800124
Japanese terms of Japanese origin gained the KANJI according to their MEANING, not the other way around. (That's why you have terms like 志, 氷 or 掌 that originally come from what would otherwise be written as 心指す, 凍る and 手の平 respectively, but were assigned a different kanji because the other kanji better expressed their meaning. Or, for a much more powerful example, several kanji for the same word, like 見る, 診る and 観る; 取る, 捕る and 撮る or 硬い, 固い and 堅い, to describe different concepts associated with it).

Of course you may just as well learn kanji meanings from words that use them, you're simply doing things backwards. Again.

>>11800197
>Of course you may just as well learn kanji meanings from words that use them, you're simply doing things backwards
Well as long as you feel superior, that's all that matters.

>>11800204
And as long as you can assume things, it seems.

>>11800230
I learned a certain way, and it worked. So I assume it works.

You didn't learn a certain way, so you assume it doesn't work.

Your assumption is stupid. Mine is logical.

>>11800204
>>11800230
I assume I'm superior to both of you, but that doesn't really mean much.

>>11800166
>So you never failed a single rep unless it was the first day seeing that kanji?
Failing reps is called studying. Learn to read fucktard. I said AFTER RTK.

>>11800246
I was referring to you assuming I said things I didn't say. But of course you're also assuming many other things, including things I did and didn't do to learn.

Was anyone else confused by this Japanese the Manga Way book?

I can't put my finger on exactly what's confusing me so much, but I think it has something to do with the way that it's written. The explanations are more confusing than the actual Japanese example, which I'd imagine is supposed to be the harder to understand part.

For example, here's a part from the book:
>"The topic is a noun or noun substitute, and it typically comes at or near the beginning of the sentence. This means that when the topic is also the subject, the "normal" word order remains the same as the other noted at fig. 125 (subject-object verb). But if the topic is the object---as it often is, including here and in fig. 132---the so-called "normal order of the subject and object gets reversed (object-subject-verb).
>"When the object is also the topic, は replaces the object marker を rather than being added to it."

Then the example immediately below it is:

>値段　は　私　が　決める。

は marks 値段 as the topic and object, が marks 私 as the subject, and 値段 is the topic of the sentence and the object of the verb 決める, so it would be "As for the price, I will decide it."

That example was really simple and easy, but that whole paragraph that was supposed to explain it just felt really long winded, barely relevant, and confusing. It feels like they could have just cut out that entire paragraph, left the very last sentence, and that would have been all that was needed. 90% of the book is like this, the pages are filled with so much text but it's like the writer is using a lot of words to say very little.

Is it just me or is the way that this is written a bit confusing? I'm worried that I might be retarded.

>>11800110
Got a deck for that?

>>11800192
A bad writer won't use certain kanji without at least considering the meaning of the kanji for the specific sci-fi/fantasy term. They are usually similar to the given definition (sometimes they include a glossary) and give at least some atmosphere to the reading.

Okay here. What is this? 抽送

Reading nearly any eroge you will come across it. But there is no Japanese compound definition to it. See: http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/srch/all/抽送/m0u/ Or whatever J-J/J-E dictionaries you have. By how you learn, you shouldn't have any idea what it means (I have to assume you don't associate any meaning to any kanji because you keep evading the question. This is why I repeatedly asked you to clarify.).

If you knew the meaning of both kanji you know it's something like "pumping" as in "His pumping cock got faster".

I'm not going to bother asking you anymore if kanji has an individual meaning to you or not since you keep on evading. I don't even want to know how you deal with chuuni stuff like in KKK.

I'm probably way to stupid to know how you think. You win man I don't care anymore.

24 later, still >>11796328
Please just acknowledge that RTK is a pile of shit and move on already. It doesn't help anyone, it just gives them the illusion of progress.

jouyou deck where?

>>11796986

She has tumblr style overly pigmented nose and cheeks.

>>11800556
Anyone?

>>11800730
Guys.

>>11800283
So you're defining "finishing" RTK to be after the point where you don't have to do any more reps to remember anything, and then telling me that you don't have to do any more reps to remember anything after finishing RTK? Wow man, so insightful.

How is /jp/ still having this tired old argument about RTK vs Vocab?

Unless everyone here is new, then it's like none of you have made any progress at all in these last few years. This is babby shit. One way or another, the whole RTK or Vocab debate becomes silly after a month or two of solid study.

It's like when I used to come to these threads and see you guys arguing over why kanji sucks and how Japan should switch completely to romaji. The idea alone is just retarded and no one who has made even the slightest progress would try to argue that, but you don't understand that until you've studied for a week or two.

I don't understand how you guys are still hung up on these kanji debates. It's time to study so that you can move on from this silliness, just like you did with the romaji debates.

>>11801169

New learners want to know what methods to use, and the debate will start in response to that.

>>11801169
>none of you have made any progress at all in these last few years
It's this. /jp/ is a pool of stagnation and filled with underachievers. At least these Japanese "learners" are still attempting to learn something, while most of /jp/ is just one step away from being at the staring at ceilings all day level.

>>11801169

It's sad to say, but anyone who was serious about learning moved to /a/'s daily Japanese thread. They have made more progress than anything we have done.

>>11801189

How can you identify its the same learners at the same level, rather than a stream of new learners providing an appearance of a static level of achievement?

>>11801200
There can't be that many people who want to learn Japanese. It's a pretty small niche to begin with.

>>11800560
I'll acknowledge after some arguments.

>>11801128
That's so. >>11800166 seems to think RTK is some sort of forever progress which needs to maintained all the time.

>>11801198
No. Just no.

While /jp/ threads may not be good, /a/'s thread are much worse.

Also I find it quite fascinating how you are able to determine progress on anonymous discussion.

>>11801240

DJT is like a board within a board. Have you seen the stuff their threads recently? /a/ as a whole is horrible, but DJT's community is far ahead of /jp/'s Do Your Reps anki threads. They're having conversations with each other in Japanese, they're talking to actual Japanese people on skype, they made their own pastebins with guides and links to learning resources, and what do we have? Just a picture of the Anki logo, fucking WaniKani devs, and the same RTK fights every single thread.

>>11801235
So under that definition do you finish RTK in a month? After that month, you never do kanji reps again, and can still write all ~2000 kanji 4 years later even if you don't write in the meantime?

>>11801268
I wanted to share my story.

I stumbled on one of these anki threads on /jp/ 123 days ago (my oldest anki deck told me so). Installed anki and ankidroid.

Started "Hiragana with stroke diagrams and audio" shared deck,
in the middle of that deck added "Katakana with stroke diagrams and audio" shared deck.
As I was finishing both of them I created "romaji to kana" deck to practice writing (I wanted to have a deck like: me in front, めメ in the back).
All three are finished long ago and all of the cards are mature.

In about a month I will be finishing "Minna No Nihongo 1 Vocabulary Complete" shared deck (but I changed the cards to show furigana on front - on this deck I only practice vocabulary, I look at the kanji but not obsess over it) - 20 new cards/day
A moth after that I started "Basic Kanji Book 1" deck (here I study kanji - so no furigana on front; following the book so usually - 1 x kanji in front, readings in back; 1x meaning in front, draw order in back; 2-4x vocab with that kanji in front, meaning in back; new card order from the book) - 5 new cards/day

When I finish Minna1 I will spend the "20 new cards" on the BKB Deck or look for 2nd Minna book. After that I wanted to look into JPT5, from what I seen the things I've been doing should mostly overlap what is required. And then maybe some real entry level reading material, for now I think I have too small vocabulary to read anything useful, since reading anything would grind to a halt when every word and every kanji needs to be looked up.

My progress is not uber fast, but I only spend ~25 minutes on it and I already see some of them overlapping and reinforcing each other.

ありがとうございます /jp/ :3

You fools will rue the day that you turned your backs to RTK.

>>11801465
me again.
Forgot to add why I replied to your post >>11801268
- I wanted to say I don't really get all excited about the topics in the threads like "RTK vs Vocab" or "learn kanji vs learn pieces of kanji". Don't give a shit. But the topic as an advert for anki and remainder to do my reps helped me, and I feel like we struggle together to learn that f*** Japanese :-)

>>11801465
I knew about 4k vocab (~1400 kanji) after my first 123 days. You really need to step it up.

>>11801468
But I can already read Japanese fine even though I've never done any specific kanji studies, especially not RTK.

>>11801465

Disregard >>11801500.

Everyone goes at a different pace.

If you get there eventually, regardless of timescale, you've done better than the majority that attempt this endeavour.

>>11801502
The majority of people don't learn Japanese though, so who cares? He's going really slow, he won't be fluent for another decade or more.

>>11801268
>They're having conversations with each other in Japanese

Hey, so can we! 俺の名前はアノン君です。俺は日本語を勉強しています。君は俺と話したいか？ お返事下さい There, I just channeled DJT.

I don't really feel it's a good idea. In part because I don't really feel comfortable using Japanese (I know, I know, I never will until I try). But more importantly, what I really didn't like about what I've seen of DJT is how they were giving bad advice to people. I don't mean the "learn the vocab" way, bad advice as in inaccurate information about grammar. It's best that beginners keep away from each other to not mutually reinforce their mistakes and bad habits. I like our silly quarrels about the process of learning more. But if you'd like to converse in Japanese instead, what's stopping you?

>>11801503

>the majority that attempt this endeavour
>that attempt this endeavour

As in people who do "try" to learn Japanese, most of which give up.

Not everyone has the ability to go at your pace.

>>11801508
I don't understand what you mean with your quote. I'm saying most of the people that attempt to learn Japanese, never learn Japanese, so comparing to the average of those retards doesn't mean anything. He can go at whatever pace he wants, but just don't expect to be able to read basic manga for a few years, and a decade to become fluent (no dictionary).

me again >>11801465

>>11801500
no i don't :)
except ghost in the shell and one piece i don't really like amine, and have no desire to read manga or play erogo. Don't know anyone else in real life to train Japanese either.

Actually I'm doing it for the newspapers, TV and books - prose like Dune. But the goal is so far ahead I might as well enjoy the stroll instead of rushing all in. And the fluency will happen eventually, just like it did with my English...

>>11801502
So far I skipped only one rep day - the neighbors where partying all night and I did not get any sleep.

>>11801503
If I keep it up at this pace in 2,5 years I should know - 10k words from the vocab deck, plus 1k kanji from the kanji deck (woth some overlaps)
But probably I will add more kanji cards... I don't think it's THAT bad anonkun... :3

>>11801506
If people asked grammar questions here I guarantee there would also be beginners trying to answer because they just read about it in Tae Kim.

These are just threads where one comes to metaphorically masturbate over deck statistics and have efficiency arguments.

Asking questions gets a bad response, if any at all. It's not surprising that /a/'s DJT dominates actual learning.

>>11800798
Come on.

>>11801863
Well, I can't "guarantee" you that there would (also) be people giving an informative answer around here, but that's what always happened while I happened to be watching.

>>11801541
10k vocab is no where near fluent, plus 1k kanji? That is really low. Fluency is near 30k vocab / 3k kanji.

>>11802708
I made a mistake - that's 10k vocab deck, 1k kanji deck, plus 2.5k vocab examples from kanji deck (here they can overlap a bit). That's over 30% of what you call fluent.
BTW natives spend 8 years on that first 1k kanji, I shaved 5 years off it, while at the same time it feels like I'm doing nothing at all - so really I don't see a problem... :)

btw I will get there in total of 3 years (2,5 from now) if I don't change my pace. I can go faster if I want, and it will probably accelerate on it's own - like if I start reading by the end of the year or something.... Even now although I have to make myself to start the reps, there are so few of them when I finish that 25-20 minute session I want more - so there is room for going faster, but I want to keep the daily load light for now...

Anyway that's my approach, it works really well *for* *me*. Will it happen /jp/? Time will tell...

>>11803048
You might need to work on your math skills a bit more.
Natives are goddamned slow.
>start reading by the end of the year or something
Try reading as early as you can. If it's taking too long and it's too frustrating then you know you're no a the level where it's an efficient use of your study time.
>25-20 minute session I want more
Don't worry, reps reach at least 10 times of what you add within a year. You'll be getting more in no time.

No matter how slow you take if you keep moving you will get somewhere. Whether that place is nice or when you'll get there will still depend on how fast you move.

>>11803106
Reading may not always be an efficient time of a study time, but whenever you try reading and hit a wall, you find out what you should be working on next.

Oh shit, I can't make up all those scribbles -> learn kanji
Okay, I can now parse it, but I have to consult a dictionary all the fucking time -> learn vocab
Okay, I know the words, but what do they mean when put together that way? -> learn grammar

Repeat until fluency.

>>11803106
Reading may not always be an efficient use of a study time, but whenever you try reading and hit a wall, you find out what you should be working on next.

Oh shit, I can't make up all those scribbles -> learn kanji
Okay, I can now parse it, but I have to consult a dictionary all the fucking time -> learn vocab
Okay, I know the words, but what do they mean when put together that way? -> learn grammar

Repeat until fluency.

>>11803139
Or you could just read and learn everything you read like a normal person. You don't have to stop and go out of your way to do something individually like that. Just learn vocab and grammar as you read.

>>11803495

I personally use the 'learn things in context' method. For example, I added a 都会 card seconds ago, as I heard in what I was listening to. This method has no logical order, though, so I know some things that the average native doesn't, but also don't know some things that every native child knows. Gap filled knowledge.

Possible pseudo-science ahead:

I think this is a left brain/right brain, thing. Left brainers have to do things in a logical order, which is why RTK, KD, etc. exist, so that they can build up knowledge in a consistent fashion. Right brainers do things without order, so they'll feel more comfortable adding things without any connection or progression, provided they're things that they feel are to be added at that time.

This is why no-one will ever agree on methods, because its two parties with entirely opposed brain function arguing. The left brainers are powerful at grinding out things in order, the right brainers are powerful at remembering relevant information, but neither is powerful at the opposite hemisphere's function.

Before someone enters semantics, this is a matter of concept, whether my terminology is correct or not doesn't matter. I know how irate people get when brains are mentioned if the speaker isn't learnèd to cutting edge level and using the exact contemporary words.

>>11803495
It's like people just read any meaning they (dis)like instead of what's actually being said.
>but then we wouldn't have multiple day arguments about nothing
carry on then

>>11803495
>read and learn everything you read like a normal person

You can't learn what you don't understand.

>>11803558
I'd also added 都会 after spotting it at random, and at that time I was very happy to find it, because it reinforced the と reading of 都 that I had previously only known from 首都. So happy that that's what I associated it with, rather than the text in which I've encountered it.

I'm using a kind of a mixed method. As a rule, I try not to add words I've never seen out in the wild, because there's too much risk of wasting my time on something I'll never use, and because I just don't trust dictionary definitions. But whenever I have too much trouble with something, instead of failing the card yet again I just mine the dictionaries for similar words to add to my deck. Even if I'll never use them on their own, sometimes learning a bunch of similar things is faster than learning something on its own. Our brains work on patterns and connections (even if it's only one half of theirs). Gaps and sparseness doesn't matter as long as information fits in clusters. Perhaps it's even more beneficial to have gaps, for easier clustering.

But learning vocab is a fairly uncontroversial endeavor. Kanji are the problem, because kanji are a different matter entirely. [the rest of the post is auto-censored, I'm not restarting this argument now]

>>11803495
if this where in Japanese it would look like this:

XX you NSJDL NHDY read and learn everything you read FDSE S NCOMAR person. You HSY'E SDAW RE MJDI and go SDF ER your DFE TE ER MKSOEHUND INSIDUWLANNY LOKE FHTD. JFMS learn MJSCA and MFJANRT FD you read.

the capital ones need to be looked up

>>11804001
>You can't learn what you don't understand.
That's literally the only thing you can learn. If you understood it, it is already learned.

>>11804076
Not sure what your point is exactly. That's why I said you learn as you read.

>>11803558
>>11804001
Why should we listen to people talk about methods when they're just learning words like 都会? This was my point before that most of the people who are in favor of RTK are the ones who just started learning Japanese and are at the very beginning and don't really have any knowledge of experience with learning yet. Of course I'm sure you think you do, and I'm sure you don't think you're still at the beginning either. I'll guess you'll understand in a couple more years if you stick with it.

>>11804705

I didn't learn 都会 before because I didn't feel the need to. I'd certainly heard it before, likely many times, but I never "noticed" it. Everyone ignores a lot of words, even in their native language, and don't even notice they exist until they become essential for comprehension in a given context. After it is learnt, it suddenly appears everywhere, and it seems like the world has learnt the word at the same time. Of course, it was always there, but it was never noticed before.

I have been at this for years. 9 years if you count from the point where I learnt kana, though, I didn't seriously actively study much (passively learnt >1000 words, at least), until ~4 years ago. All the methods I tried, I didn't make much progress with them, despite them all supposedly being the 'correct' way to do it. I learnt quite conclusively that the same things won't work for everyone, but absolutely everyone thinks their own method is the only viable one at all. I eventually found my own method.

One's own method is one's own method, not everyone's method. Everyone has to find their method, before they can learn. It is better to suggest all things which have worked for a significant number of others in the past, than to claim to have knowledge of which is the true method. You're almost like religious fanatics. There will never be a resolution to this argument, as it is unresolvable - for as long as there are people benefiting from a method, you will never be able to convince them that their own personal experience is incorrect.

You may well be too far in, and just think "well, if everyone just persisted at doing what I did, it has to work". Think of it like a coefficient that increases with suitability. It is effectively impossible to learn, if your progress is only 1% of what it would be with a more suited method.

>>11804682
No. If you can parse a sentence and identify the parts you didn't get, you can often check them in the relevant dictionaries and guides, thus understanding it without having learned it. And you didn't yet learn the parts you just had to check either, you'll forget most of them in a matter of hours if you don't consciously memorize or otherwise reinforce them. But when you do - this is how you learn.

More importantly, if you can't parse a sentence, you won't learn anything from it. To suggest you should literally learn everything you read is to suggest you should make yourself stuck on everything you're struggling to process, without a chance to simply backtrack and practice on simpler things until you're ready. This, of course, is pure idiocy, and to suggest it someone must be either a genius who never got stuck on anything he learned, or an idiot who never made any effort to learn in the first place. And I don't expect the former to post on /jp/.

>>11804705
I put as much past tense into that sentence as I could, because I just knew some idiot will misinterpret it like that. Still not enough, apparently. I'll make sure I'll use some obscure XVI century term the next time I need a vocabulary example, that should make me look sophisticated and fluent enough. Nevermind that the only people who could potentially find my post useful won't understand it.

Now, why should we listen to people talk about language learning when they can't even comprehend English?