/jp/ - Otaku Culture

It's right there in the damn picture

>>11691687

Looks like Rosa didn't make the damn thing herself. What a whore.

>>11691687

I don't understand, she said it had something to do with Battler and Beatrice

>>11691702

2deep4u

It doesn't even matter anon because that Ange wasn't even real.

>>11691685
>not using Ryukishi007's original sprites
CASUAL

How can you believe in magic if its only a theory (a geuss)?

>>11691855

Shut up, magic ending all the way

>>11691868
a what now?

>>11691855

Technically, the 95% of umineko isn't real in the umineko universe

yes! it was as i thought...the sakutarous were a common toy and not hand-made by that lying bitch rosa!

but wait! didn't rosa own her clothing company? What if she did indeed design and sell that same line of sakutarous that she gave to maria as became popular on the mainland.

But wait! This was on the boat, which means it may have been some sort of collection rosa gave the boat captain, or perhaps they're in some sort of dimensional rift whenever they're on the boat, or maybe ange and the boat captain are unreliable narrators and this scene never really took place or is not telling the whole truth!

>>11691931

Umineko logic really fucks with you after a while. Also, Rosa would never give anyone anything, the only scene where she's shown not being a complete bipolar whore is in EP 1 and that was written by Yasu who doesn't know shit about Rosa to begin with.

>>11691936

>Umineko logic really fucks with you after a while

Reading /anything/ with Umineko goggles makes it twice as entertaining

It's in the manga.

>>11692007
Omitting information so people buy tie-in merchandise?

R07 you crafty fox.

>>11692007

I got the first 2 manga EPs (4 volumes). I really wish they had handled the Rosa vs Goats scene better.
Also changing fonts for the blue and red truths is bullshit

>>11692007

Volume 5 chapter 20.

>>11692014

>tie-in merchandise

Manga is better and the has the definitive canon.

>>11691953
More like twice as autistic, which is twice as entertaining all right.

There was that long ass discussion with some anons trying to Mystery interpretation Higanbana.

>>11692025

After spending 64 hours on "Applied Umineko Logic" (took me around 8 hours to read each EP) re-reading the entire fucking series, it seems like a shame to not fuck around with other stories with it.

>>11692023

But that didn't show anything

>>11692034
I think that using your Umineko sense on Higanbana's first reading is completely missing the point and spoiling the story for you. Higanbana is part horror story and part social commentary. It's difficult to connect with the social horror when you're actively trying to disprove the existence of Higanbana.

Whatever, you do what you want, you're in a free country. Unless you're Chinese or American.

>>11692036

>>11692059

>>11692047

I think everyone knows that Higanbana is supposed to be a social commentary with a horror twist. I meant in re-readings. Also Higanbana isn't very well written, it's so fucking heavy handed. Also the ending of the first night was retarded. "Bullies will always be bullies, so lets throw them off a cliff"
wtf R07?

>>11692061

>>11692067

Goats will love this.

>>11692064
>"Bullies will always be bullies, so lets throw them off a cliff"

That was awesome, and in no small part because it achieve to convey the true moral of that story, chiefly that, sometimes, there is no moral at all, no easy solutions, you do your best but it isn't enough. The world is a sick place and sometimes the strong wins, regardless of what is right or just. The moral of that particular story is that there is no moral, and it's the perfect ending for a collection of tales on human nature.

Higanbana won the good ending on this one, and only because she was a total, unrepentant, bastard with murderous intent. Just like true life.

>>11692069

I don't understand!

>>11692069
I have love but it's difficult to see it. How can I augment my love level?

>>11692083

Search a better partner.

>>11692088

without good sex, the truth cannot be seen

EP 4 had my favorite subplot. I loved the Maria/Rose chapters. Giving an autistic to a bipolar woman could only ensue in hilarity

>>11692094

It's been years since I read ep 4 but I remember it being the most boringest.

>>11692108

It had a shitload of irrelevant shit like Ange's school life and "The life and times of an autistic 9 year old" that bogged the story down

>>11692077

That's a pretty cool way of looking at it

>>11691687
Didn't know the PS3 version explicitly showed it.

>>11692229

I don't understand how a bag of sakutaros prompts Ange's extreme reaction though

>>11692289
Because Sakutarou is supposed to be hand-made by Rosa, you fucking dweeb.

By the way, the shitty anime showed this well before the even shittier PS3 version which now allows people to never play the VN with the original sprites.

>>11692069
>>11692067
>>11692065
>>11692061
>>11692059
>>11692023
...It still doesn't show it.

>Manga is better and the has the definitive canon.
No, the VN has the definitive canon. The manga is that shitty thing that actually shows a corpse in the storage shed with a ring on it, instead of Hideyoshi just claiming that there is with nothing actually shown.

>>11692327

I fucking get that there's only supposed to be one, but if it really did turn out that they were mass produced, why the fuck is ange crying and having revelations about shit, how does that even tie into beatrice and battler's relationship I don't understand

>>11692348

The PS3 version shows Shannon's corpse in the shed too

How is that supposed to be Sakutarou? Am I being trolled? Looks just like the inside of a mattress to me.

>>11692354
What a piece of crap.

>>11692350
It doesn't. r07 is a shitty writer who thinks he's being clever and SODEEP

>>11692357

Pretty weird since R07 took the time of doing the whole gun-behind-the-dresser CG in EP 2.
You'd think he would have known that that CG was there and didn't care enough / had another reason for leaving it in

>>11692350
Because Ange is a delusional autist who thinks seeing mass-produced Sakutarou means she's the wonderful and amazing witch of resurrection who was destined to go to Rokkenjima to save her brother and beat Beatrice and give Maria back her friend and make everyone happy again.

>>11692365

Rosatrice confirmed

>>11692372

No, shut the fuck up

>>11692374
..but why?

>>11692374

Oh.
Ok I get it now. Why are so many people in Umineko so psychologically damaged? We have 2 autists, at least one schizo, a brooding introvert, like jesus really?

>>11692381
Because the whole magic concept is taking something too terrible to accept and sprinkling it with love and gumdrops to make it taste good. Ange really realizes why Maria needs this and accepts it herself at that moment.

>>11692384
It's Kinzo's blood. He probably has some kind of autism in his genes.

>>11692384
Well, about a quarter was written by an orphan with disfiguring injuries that make it impossible for them to have children who found out that her master was also her grandfather and father who imprisoned her mother for life and kidnapped her grandmother, was constantly bullied by all the other orphans, had to work from age 6, had the only person they ever loved leave them without a word, and was subsequently sexually harassed by a violent lesbian and a creepy fat man. The rest was written by a guy with brain damage whose entire family was dead, likely because they killed each other in a free-for-all.

>>11692389

But Ange prime has no bearing on chessboard Ange. Whatever is going on with the whole beatrice locking herself up with maria in the golden land like a ho shit has nothing to do with Ange on her quest to find out what happened on Rokkenjima Prime. Hell, the two never even parallel until the fucking sakutaro bag, which is why I was so fucking confused

>>11692418

This is the best plot summary of umineko ever. Also, only EP 1 and 2 were written by yasu, the rest were by Tohjo

>>11692422
>Ange prime
>"prime"
Episode 3/4 Ange is just a continuation of episode 3, and has an author in-universe. It's not the real Ange. Thus she does have a connection to the gameboard.

>>11692438

Thar's bullshit. Ange on her journey with that hot guy, was NEVER hinted to be connected to what's happening on the gameboard until the sakutaro bag scene. Everything that's happening with sakutaro at the time is from her reading Maria's diary and getting to the part where rosa tears him in two, not about beatrice being unable to resurrect him thus rendering Ange as the witch or resurrection

>>11692450
You don't have to like it. Even if you deny she has a gameboard connection you can't deny that from that point onwards she clearly does, and it's not like she became a different character.

>>11692422

Ange Prime doesn't give a fuck about Rokkenjima, she's a children's book author who doesn't want to know what happens and would like people to stop writing fiction about her family.

>>11692466
But what if I picked trick?

>>11692462

I don't like it.

You know what, fuck everything. I'm all for Rosatrice now

>>11692468
Then you got tricked. That's the bad end. Magic is the real Ange.

>>11692025
Why do they fucking keep drawing the Higanbana girls with huge breasts? Marie is 11, for god's sake! They did the same thing to Satoko.

>>11692570
Blame R07's art.

>>11692348

>No, the VN has the definitive canon.

Oh yeah, keep telling yourself whatever you want.

>>11692570
That wouldn't make sense, since everything about Satoko is shit

>>11693113
Exactly, even her chest is shit.

>>11691685
So it means that when Beatrice (Rosa) said that she cannot resuscitate sakutarou just means that if she just gave Maria another doll the she will know that it wasn't handmade? So, when Ange can resuscitate sakutarou in the golden land its just that Ange gave (symbolically?) one of the dolls that she found in the boathouse, and thats why Beatrice look so frustrated?

>>11693160
>Beatrice (Rosa)

>>11693246
well, at least tell me a theory that you think is valid

>>11693253
Beatrice (Yasu) said she cannot resurrect it because she thinks it's handmade, thus she can't just go get another one and pretend she resurrected it. Either she still believed that and got completely #rekt, thinking Ange actually performed magic, or she realized that it wasn't handmade after all.

She must be pretty assmad after doing all that ritual song and dance to give him a soul and enter him into her superfun magical grimoire or whatever when he was just a cheap mass-produced toy. Either way she gets told as hell because the only way reason she can't res him is because her magic is all zip wires and light tricks.

>>11693300
yeah, maybe a lot of us are just trying to fit clues into another people theories, like some kind of pareidolia, if you know what i mean. Who do you think that yasu is supposed to be? do you believe in the Shkanon thing?

>>11693334
>Who do you think that yasu is supposed to be? do you believe in the Shkanon thing?

>>11693334
I seriously hope this post is meant as a joke

>>11693390
>>11693394
ok, its not like i just wanted to talk

>>11693390
>>11693394
Guys. Guys. Guys.
Only a goat would assume there is just one single valid theory.
I, for example, *may want* to believe Beato is Beatrice Ushiromiya's reincarnation, and that magic really exists. And that would be okay, since it's just a silly theory, but still a theory.
Umineko can be explained in a lot of different ways.
If you like shkanontrice or rosatrice, it's alright, if you, as me, prefer to refuse that is also good for you, and so on.

>>11693334

I for one continue to believe in jessitrice

>>11693712

Jessica-Trice?

The violent lesbian?

>>11693334

>do you believe in the Shkanon thing?

>>11693300
>Either she still believed that and got completely #rekt, thinking Ange actually performed magic, or she realized that it wasn't handmade after all.

It's obviously the second. Beatrice couldn't finish the Red Truth that Sakutarou was the only one of its kind in the entire world.

Beatrice then emotionally breaks down and merely agrees with Ange's claim that it's magic.

People are STILL talking about Umineko?
This shit was interesting 5 fucking years ago son

>>11693516
No, don't be dumb.

There's a single answer. The author wrote the story with a single point in mind. Just because he intentionally made things a *little* bit ambiguous for thematic purposes doesn't mean that he didn't make anything happen.

Just because anything *could* have happened doesn't mean that there isn't a single event that *did* happen.

And no, "rosatrice" is not "alright". It's a poisonous, stupid "theory" that actively ignores every single dramatic and thematic point the story puts forth.

>>11694727
You mean, Bern and Auaurora's board? ep7 tea party and stuff? the TRUTH? haha. Hah.
>Implying they just weren't trying to fuck with Leon and Ange's minds
I still can't believe this unnatural shkanontrice crossdressing issue.
Yes, that even means I don't buy this yasuda thing. It rapes over a half of Knox rules.
To me, rosatrice and all the other "-trice" theories are all equally poisonous.
I thought the whole point of Umineko was free interpretation and "create your own theory".
So, what's the truth you're talking about?

>>11695438
>I still can't believe this unnatural shkanontrice crossdressing issue.

What, exactly, is unnatural about a gender confused person experimenting with different gender roles?

> It rapes over a half of Knox rules

1) Name one rule it breaks, 2) Show me where Umineko follows them in the first place

>I thought the whole point of Umineko was free interpretation and "create your own theory".

No it isn't. The author merely wanted an answer that can't be revealed in a single pithy copy-pasted sentence. Which is true, giving the answer for the complex web of resentment, hate, and sadness that built up on Rokkenjima to explode (literally) on that family conference takes a fair bit of discussion on the events leading up to that point.

>So, what's the truth you're talking about?

To put it simply, Yasu with all her myriad of issues, sets up the entire roulette with her murder mystery "game" and the bomb, however she never really gets an opportunity to set it off, instead fighting breaks out and it ends with Kyrie causing most of the deaths, by the end only Battler and Eva survive.

>My face when someone tells me that Erika is a good character.

*tips fedora*

>>11695631
>What, exactly, is unnatural about a gender confused person experimenting with different gender roles?
Facial features. Different physonomy between the three of them. Damn, even eye types and hairstyle. Even a <GOOD> costume would be hard to wear after a long time. There's a ton-fuck of problems with that one.
>1) Name one rule it breaks
i'll go and mention more than just ONE.
Knox 1 (regarding Yasu) Knox 5 (servants apply!) Knox 8 (the whole island exploted so there are no real proofs) and most important Knox 10 (shkanon/shkanontrice)
>No it isn't.
Then explain the alternate worlds. And why/how they can coexist.
>She
If you're going with the Yasu = shkanontrice theory, then you can't say it's a "she". Very simple.
>However she never really gets an opportunity to set it off
Except she actually had a lot of opportunities during the sibling's arguing.
And that is the truth a witch, Bernkastel and (possibly even Featherine) wants to show you. No one you reached for yourself.

>>11691919
But that Ange isn't even in the magic ending anon

>>11695722
>Facial features. Different physonomy between the three of them. Damn, even eye types and hairstyle.

Actually Shannon and Kanon look pretty similar, even disregarding R07's art isn't that good, the visuals are more of a general idea of the character. Not to mention generic anime sameface. Beatrice is a complete fantasy, the one time we get a reliable perspective on her it's up on the balcony of a third story building, at night, in the rain. Shannon is just Kanon with fake boobs and heels. At most she has one or the other put on a wig.

>Then explain the alternate worlds. And why/how they can coexist.

They're fictional stories written. It's possible to write multiple stories even about the same event.

>i'll go and mention more than just ONE.

Oh boy let's see this pathetic reasoning.

"It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story."

We see Kanon and Shannon both very early on in the story, and there's plenty of hints that they're the culprit.

"No Chinamen shall appear in the story"

Completely irrelevant. This rule was to fight against the "solution" being mysterious foreigner with mystical with strange powers being the culprit.

>It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.

There are a multitude of clues pointing to Shannon and Kanon being the same person, and this individual being the culprit.

>>11695722
>If you're going with the Yasu = shkanontrice theory, then you can't say it's a "she". Very simple.

Yes I can. It's pretty clear that even though Yasu was born a male, she identifies as a female.

>Except she actually had a lot of opportunities during the sibling's arguing.

She had given it up by then.

>And that is the truth a witch, Bernkastel and (possibly even Featherine) wants to show you. No one you reached for yourself.

It's the truth the story gives us. It's collaborated by the Red Truth "This is the truth-", which Bern latter lamely tries to excuse away in the white text. It's a mislead technique, show the answer from an unpleasant source, that the author uses many times. Finally it's the only truth in which Ange's reaction makes sense, if it was anyone else she would not break down and try to kill herself over.

>>11695780>Actually Shannon and Kanon look pretty similar
Their hair is different. Even their hair color and frontal hair is different.

Here's a fun game, which one is wearing a wig?

>>11695807
>Here's a fun game, which one is wearing a wig?

Let's say Kanon because to most people "Shannon" is the default persona.

But it really doesn't matter, especially since the appearances we get aren't "really" what the characters would look like in the real world.

>>11695823
Nope, that's just an assumption.

You cannot prove it.
Shannon was friends with Jessica and she never noticed her hair being different.
This was before the creation of Kanon which was created about the same time when Battler left.

>>11695833
>You cannot prove it.

Well technically yes I can't prove if one persona the other ever wore a wig, but that's because such a minor detail like that doesn't matter.

>Shannon was friends with Jessica and she never noticed her hair being different.

So if Kanon does wear a wig (and remember, the way the sprites look isn't necessarily how they'd look in the "real world." The "Real Jessica" isn't Blonde and the "Real Natsuhi" doesn't have Gradient Hair)

>This was before the creation of Kanon which was created about the same time when Battler left.

No Kanon was created around three years after Battler left.

>>11695722
Let's recall how visual cues mean jack shit in Umineko in general.

But putting that aside the only establishment for Yasu gender wise is that his/her ideal form was Shannon, regardless of bodily gender.

Also I'm not sure how Shkanon breaks the 10th since there are clues all over the goddamn place, and Knox 1 simply means that Yasu is not the culprit (which she really isn't, I'm not sure why every Shkanon non-believer seems to think that this was established at some point).

Knox 5 you're going to have to elaborate on, and by Knox 8 you invalidate your whole side of the argument anyway so I'm not sure what the point of that is.

>>11695873
It's a misunderstanding of the entire story.

They somehow think that that "Yasu" is a new character, rather then merely being the name we use for the single driving person being Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice.

Alright fuckers. Explain why Williard's Red Truth of servants not being able to be the culprit is out of the question. It's implied that only a few of Van Dyne's rules were effective and guess which one was the only one shown in red.

>>11695873
I have good visual cue that shows that it is actually relevant.

Whenever George's glasses fog up, he's acting like a bitch and reveals his true self.

Visual cues do mean something in Umineko.

Also, Yasu is the culprit as she/he is the one who commits the crime.
The issue with the Knox 1 is that if you place ''Yasu'' as the culprit, it includes Shannon and Kanon but neither being deliberately selected as the culprit.
A good analogy would be picking the culprit in the mini game Bernkastel created. You pick an invisible button that is invisible but labeled as 'Yasu' which also highlights Shannon and Kanon as they are one and the same but you don't select the character Shannon or Kanon individually.

>>11695885
Yasu isn't a servant but is actually the master even though she still plays the role of the servant and should count as being one even though he isn't but who really knows honestly etc etc.

Van Dine's rule, although people will bring up the ''No Knox No Dine'' shit, were used in ep 8 to disprove the Goats and should be considered as relevant.
Not that it matters either way.

>>11695891
But say you only had the text without the visuals. The lack George's glasses fogging up doesn't deter from his true nature as being described in the text. While 'relevant', there's nothing stopping that visual cue from being 'useless'. It doesn't provide anything that the text isn't already implying. George's glasses fogging up when he's being an ass is no different from Battler smiling when he's laughing or any other expressed emotion.

As for Yasu being the culprit, there's no 100% guarantee that she did anything at all. Knox 1 only gets violated if you assume she went through with her plan, and there's literally no indication of whether or not she actually did outside of EP1 and EP2 where the story is crafted under the assumption that she did.

Whether Knox's decalogue is violated or not is largely irrelevant. The game itself regularly taunts the reader over its lax adherence to the rules. Ergo, the whole 'is Umineko anti-mystery or anti-fantasy?' theme.

>>11695885
Van Dine's rules do not apply to Umineko. Period.

All Will said is that one of Van Dine's rules says that servants can't be the culprit, which is true. Nowhere is that rule applied to Beatrice's gameboard, and in fact when he tries to Bern just laughs it off.

>The issue with the Knox 1 is that if you place ''Yasu'' as the culprit, it includes Shannon and Kanon but neither being deliberately selected as the culprit.
A good analogy would be picking the culprit in the mini game Bernkastel created. You pick an invisible button that is invisible but labeled as 'Yasu' which also highlights Shannon and Kanon as they are one and the same but you don't select the character Shannon or Kanon

What? No, it's just "Shannon and Kanon are the same person, and this person is the culprit."

>>11695877

people actually misunderstand this basic fact of the series?

By EP2 you should realize there's a meta personality/ hidden character thing going on and by EP6 it becomes obvious and almost inarguable that Yashkanontrice is an insane rightful heir and eunuch maid who is yandere for her cousin and was responsible for her entire family being murdered

>>11696026
What a lot of Shkanon non-believers seem to think is that there was no basis for the theory before 7, whereas it's actually been going around since EP2 at the earliest. Probably because they all hopped on the bandwagon after the series had ended and watched KnownNoMore go on about this for nine hours.

>>11696046
I've read a transcript of KNM's video and I'm pretty convinced people only believe it because it's so long and rambling that they end up in a trance state as they do other things for the nine hours and just go "huh I guess that makes sense"

Because if you actually examine the words he said it's insane.

>>11696113
It's amazing how someone can find exactly two lines of red truth from two practically unrelated episodes of the series and base literally EVERYTHING in their theory around them, while completely blotching their explanation of both points no more than five minutes into the video.

The only redeeming feature of the Rosatrice "theory" is that it pins the blame on my two most hated characters, Rosa and George.

>>11696202
This was why I watched more than 10 minutes of that video. I was actually curious to hear what basis he had for George as a culprit. And came away with jack shit.

>>11696189
Don't forget how he says his explanation is more elegant when you have this:

"Because it may not have been possible for George to be in front of the dining hall door at exactly midnight, which would have been preferable for dramatic effect to knock on the door exactly at midnight that it would be smarter to set the arms of the clock back a bit to give him more time. Then when he made it from the guesthouse to the dining hall door he could simply move the arms of the clock forward to 12; then knock on the door, leave the letter there, and get out again."

Vs "They lied"

>>11696026
>>11696046
what about when Erika sees Shanon and Kanon in the same room in EP5? is explicitly stated that Erika is the detective in that episode and her perspective is objetive. Also, wasn't Shanon and Kanon who escorted her?

>>11696292
Where does Erika say she sees Shannon and Kanon in the same room?

"Ironically, I believe that the culprit’s motive has been in our faces the entire time throughout the first 4 novels. Think about, what is the very first motive that is presented as the reason for the crime to take place? Well, throughout the first 4 novels we see that Kinzo is trying to resurrect Beatrice. The ceremony is for Beatrice to come back to life, to regain a human body that she had shed when she fell down the cliff 19 years earlier as we learn in the 3d novel.

I truly believe that this has been the culprit's true motive after all.

In other words:

The culprit carries out the murders since she believes carrying out the epitaph in a literal fashion will result in the resurrection of the Kuwadorian Beatrice"

Rosatrice: in which Roaa believes in literal magic.

>>11696292
Are you sure this happens? I began strongly suspecting that Kanon and Shannon were the same person starting with EP4, so I'm fairly sure it wouldn't have escaped my notice.

>>11696202
The only actual redeeming feature is the way it solved the crimes in a more mystery aspect, rather than just say that people were paid off and there was no mystery to be uncovered, and actually giving an alternative answer to the whole ''Even if you do join us-
There are 17 people''.

The motive of both George and Rosa are a bit meh to me and so is most of his explanation on Chiru but his explanation for it all is decently interesting, even if convoluted in certain places.

What I also think is interesting is that was considered to be the least suspected person in the family.
Except for ep 2 where people noticed she was in the church but didn't die, there really was no one who though Rosa might be Beatrice and isn't it the hallmark of a mystery to have the reader think someone is the killer only to have the least likely person to be discovered as the killer?

>>11696288
It makes more sense that George followed the dramatic effect that was made to act like an event caused by Beatrice than that everyone in the story lied.
Why, how? Doesn't matter since Battler was compromised and so might be everyone else.
It might not be something he planned by something Beatrice herself though of and George followed through.

KNM's door knock explanation is pretty well persuasive and makes sense.

Saying that ''they lied'' is extremely lazy and goes for the quickest answer to stop thinking.
Also the red says ''None of the characters misidentified a knocking sound.''
You can't misidentify something that never happened.

>>11696306
To be fair, it does explain why the fuck anyone would kill everyone specifically the same way the epitaph demanded it.

>Rosatrice: in which Roaa believes in literal magic.
And so did Yasu.

>>11696309
It doesn't. In 5 we never once see anything for her POV and in 6 she's never put in the same room as Shannon and Kanon at the same time.

>>11696320
>And so did Yasu.

No she didn't. She had imaginary friends and endulged in power fantasies, but she never really believed she was a witch or that her "magic" was anything more then pranks and group lies.

>>11696322
Either way, Shannon could not have changed fast enough to become Kanon before putting Kanon in another group.
It happened pretty fast.

iirc, she placed Shannon and Kanon in different rooms.

>>11696332
>No she didn't.
Well, then, Yasu didn't kill anyone in ep 1 then.

Why else would she not have gone in Natsuhi's room if the charm wasn't there and if Yasu didn't believe in magic?

I swear, Yasu can believe in something but have an X do whatever she wants.

It's like the explanation for Yasu not even following her own goddamn rules in ep 3 and continuing to commit murder.
As much as I think Rosatrice is dubious, at least it provides an answer to why the hell murder would have continued after someone solved the Epitaph.

Beatrice specifically says that she'll stop the murders if someone solves it and finds the gold yet the murder continues.
Did Yasu just supposedly forget about her goddamn promise or was she just ''not paying attention''?

Either way, it feels off.

>>11696295
>>11696309
Ugh, i don't have the VN right now but i'm mostly sure it happens, even shanon and kanon appears just beside Erika in the VN. This is the closest proof i could get, but yeah, i should install the novel again. Also, at least in the manga the detective declaration is made before this scene but i don't remember the order in the VN.

http://mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_naku_koro_ni_chiru_episode_5_end_of_the_golden_witch/v02/c006/6.html

>>11696316
>Saying that ''they lied'' is extremely lazy and goes for the quickest answer to stop thinking.

Occam's Razor. Umineko uses it a lot. It creates complex confusing looking situations, but the answe is usually pretty simple.

There's one "complex" situation, and everything builds from there. Making everything so convoluted is bad.

>Also the red says ''None of the characters misidentified a knocking sound.''
>You can't misidentify something that never happened.

True. They couldn't mistake something that is not a knock for a knock.

That doesn't mean they can't lie about hearing one.

>>11696345
Battler is the POV character in 5 and he's explicitly unreliable.

>>11696295

I vaguely remember this statement being told from a different pov than erika's when the count is given with shannon and kanon included, or rather she wasn't the detective so her pov may have been compromised, or some such thing i dont remember exaxctly

>>11696320
>And so did Yasu.
Not really. Yasu is quite aware of the stark reality that is facing him/her, and so chooses to indulge in a magical fantasy to escape it.

The whole "two people are needed to create a world" mantra is literally a plea from Yasu for someone to acknowledge her fantasy and thus lend substance to it. The fact that she is unable to do it alone speaks volumes about her true disposition towards magic.

>>11696344
>Why else would she not have gone in Natsuhi's room if the charm wasn't there and if Yasu didn't believe in magic?

Because she was *pretending* to be a witch. You can pretend to be something you're not. She had desired to pretend to be Beatrice performing the murders, as such followed rules she had made up in her head like "I can't kill anyone holding those charms"

>It's like the explanation for Yasu not even following her own goddamn rules in ep 3 and continuing to commit murder.
>As much as I think Rosatrice is dubious, at least it provides an answer to why the hell murder would have continued after someone solved the Epitaph.

I think you need to refresh your memory on the VN. Eva and Rosa agreed to keep the solving of the Epitaph a secret. Yasu can't stop if she doesn't know. Once she figured it out, she went to chill it's Jessica as Kanon.

>>11696346
>Occam's Razor. Umineko uses it a lot. It creates complex confusing looking situations, but the answe is usually pretty simple.
>There's one "complex" situation, and everything builds from there. Making everything so convoluted is bad.
That's still a bullshit answer.
Occam's Razor doesn't work by picking the easiest solution but the one that requires less backhanding in explaining something.

There is no proof other than Battler seeing Kinzo meaning his view is compromised.

However, this does not disprove anything other than go for the easiest possible solution.
It does not also disprove that George might have actually done that other than the ''well duh, it's the obvious simple answer so it HAD to have happened like that''.

For example, if someone walks a mile to get an item, there is nothing to suggest that the person couldn't walk two miles to get an item if he also went to get something between those two miles to compensate for that extra mile.

It's the same.
Umineko never says that Occam's razor should be used to solve crimes.
It's lazy and it is simply the reader that stops thinking.

>>11696366
>I think you need to refresh your memory on the VN. Eva and Rosa agreed to keep the solving of the Epitaph a secret. Yasu can't stop if she doesn't know. Once she figured it out, she went to chill it's Jessica as Kanon.
Beatrice's letter says that you need to discover the gold, not fucking make a proclamation to it to everyone.
Just because Eva didn't tell anyone doesn't explain why she didn't keep any eye on people possibly solving the epitaph and finding the goal.

ESPECIALLY when the fucking letter says so.
The single important thing that can possibly save everyone and Yasu doesn't pay any attention to it.
What bullshit.

And what proof is there that Yasu even found out that someone figured out the epitaph?

It also doesn't explain, once Yasu stopped killing people in that scenario where Yasu found out about the gold being solved, why the murder continued of why Eva said that she was the culprit and killed Battler.
And you'd better not give me a bullshit answer like Eva was actually the culprit.

>>11696372
>There is no proof other than Battler seeing Kinzo meaning his view is compromised.


Have you actually read the VN?!

"No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight."

This Red Truth is given in both 4 and 5. It means that nobody can mistake something that is not Kinzo to be Kinzo. So when Battler said he saw Kinzo, he was lying in his narration.

>>11696388
The red does not lie.
There was a knock.

There is no proof that the whole family was in on it.

>>11696389
Eva was obviously one of the culprits in EP3. You'd have to be retarded not to realize this, especially when it's fucking spelt out for you.

One day I hope someone makes a list for the seemingly endless amount of mysteries and questions the VN creates and answer them concisely.

>>11696396
Nope, the red web at the end deny it.
Eva could not have killed anyone in the latter portion of the game.
There's a reason why Battler could not pindown Eva being the culprit through all the red.

Also, Eva and Rosa each point their guns at each other and both agree that killing for money is ridiculous and silly.
And then you expect me to believe Eva killed everyone?
Hahahaha.

Spelled out for me?
Oh you mean the Eva-Beatrice roaming around?
Yeah, that's definitely Eva and not someone else we can't see. I hope you sense my sarcasm.

There is no reason for Eva to kill anyone when the reason for her to possibly kill anyone is fucking denied by Eva herself when she refused to kill Rosa.
And Rosa herself might make a claim for the gold or babble to everyone yet Eva doesn't fucking shoot her.

And yet Eva killed everyone so she can keep the gold and money for herself?
Don't you see the contradiction?

>>11696389
>Beatrice's letter says that you need to discover the gold, not fucking make a proclamation to it to everyone.

And pray tell how is Beatrice going to know that? She's kind of busy setting up an elaborate murder, she can't just watch the gold chamber all day.

>And what proof is there that Yasu even found out that someone figured out the epitaph?

Why else do you think she put up that PIN number?

>why the murder continued of why Eva said that she was the culprit and killed Battler.

Because by that point the stress of the day had made Eva snap.

She had accidentally killed Rosa, flipped out and strangled Maria. She then got into a shoutout with her husband between Rudolf and Kyrie. Went to get Dr. Nanjo and came back them stabbed with creepy occult stakes. Then Krauss and Natsuhi just turn up dead and her son is killed too and she has no idea if she did it or not. Then they find Nanjo dead... And then Jessica hanging out in the parlor with a person who's supposed to be dead. She flips out, shoots both of them, so Battler accuses her of being the culprit. So Eva, her sanity shredded agrees and shoots him.

>>11696409
Um, Yasu killed Nanjo at the end.

I mean, if you hadn't realized this... wow. Just wow.

>>11696392
Show me the Red Truth that says that a knock happened.

>>11696416
IF YASU FUCKING KILLED NAJO, THEN WHY THE FUCK DID SHE KILL HIM WHEN EVA ALREADY SOLVED THE FUCKING EPITAPH.

Holy fucking shit.
It's like you people forget about Beatrice's letter that promises to stop killed.
But then you just say that Yasu just killed Najo even though Eva solved the epitaph.

If Yasu killed everyone and then realised that Eva solved the epitaph AT THE FUCKING END OF THE GAME ALREADY, isn't that a bit too fucking late.

I don't think I can make my point more clear.

>>11696421
Show me a proof that it didn't.
Devil proof

>>11696425
Because Eva and Rosa agreed to keep secret the fact that the gold was found.

Herp derp how the fuck is Yasu supposed to know that she should stop killing if no one announces that fact.

>>11696425
>IF YASU FUCKING KILLED NAJO, THEN WHY THE FUCK DID SHE KILL HIM WHEN EVA ALREADY SOLVED THE FUCKING EPITAPH

Because she hadn't realized it until after she killed him.

>If Yasu killed everyone and then realised that Eva solved the epitaph AT THE FUCKING END OF THE GAME ALREADY, isn't that a bit too fucking late.

Yup! Kind of sad, really. If Eva hasn't been so paranoid things would have turned out relatively better.

>>11696345
ok, i looked at that scene again and definitely shanon and kanon are in the same room together. I'm not sure about how's the POV is supposed to be, but the history is narrated by lambda, and the detective declaration was made in the same scene. Even if the scene is supposed to be in battler's(?) POV, and is sure that Erika is in the same room as Battler. ¿Can lambda just pull an illusion in front of the person that is supposed to be the detective?

>>11696427
"In short, this means it was impossible for any character within the mansion to be the source of a knocking SOUND. ......And 'any character' refers even to unobserved people that no one has noticed."

Nobody could have made the knock.

The knock never happened.

>>11696411
>And pray tell how is Beatrice going to know that? She's kind of busy setting up an elaborate murder, she can't just watch the gold chamber all day.
I don't know, ask one of her servants, maybe fucking Genji whom she has all control to keep an eye?
Or maybe she planned her murders beforehand? Why would she be busy to set up an elaborate murder but not enough to follow through her plan to let everyone off the hook.

>hey everyone, I'll kill you all if you furfill this part of the deal but it won't count if I don't pay attention.
The fuck?

>>11696411
>the stress made her kill Rosa
Wow, seriously?
Yeah, you're fucking stupid.

>She flips out, shoots both of them, so Battler accuses her of being the culprit. So Eva, her sanity shredded agrees and shoots him.
Red : Eva was with you[Battler] the whole time.
You're fucking stupid.

>>11696446
>I don't know, ask one of her servants, maybe fucking Genji whom she has all control to keep an eye?

Genii was dead at that point in time.

>Wow, seriously?

Rosa died in an accident. Eva and Rosa started to argue, Eva shoved Rosa, and she landed on the fence, accidentally getting impaled.

>Red : Eva was with you[Battler] the whole time.
>You're fucking stupid.

I fail to see how Eva being with Battler prohibits her from shooting him.

>>11696444
Someone made the knock, you can't disprove it.

>>11696443
The narrative says ''me and dad'' which means that the counting of people in the parlor might not be accurate and Erika doesn't specifically go see Shannon and Kanon.

Either way, it can wizzle out of that situation.

>>11696434
That doesn't disprove the fact that Beatrice's letter says that you need to say to everyone you found it to stop the murder.

1- find gold
2- murders will stop

THAT'S IT.
There is no proof to assume that Yasu didn't fucking notice other than the fact that it explains why Yasu continued to kill everyone.

It's fucking bullshit.

>>11696453
>Eva and Rosa started to argue, Eva shoved Rosa, and she landed on the fence, accidentally getting impaled.
No they fucking didn't.

It still doesn't explain why she would have killed everyone.
I can just fucking say a witch possessed her and killed everyone, just like Eva-Beatrice bullshited with Kyrie being influenced by a witch, and you'd have no proof.
The fucking explanation that ''stress'' got her to kill the entire family when it fucking contradicts Eva not wanting to kill anyone for money but you think she would kill everyone and even Rosa is fucking stupid.

>>11696454
>Someone made the knock, you can't disprove it.

Uhh I just did. When no character, know or unknown can do something, it means it didn't happen champ.

>There is no proof to assume that Yasu didn't fucking notice other than the fact that it explains why Yasu continued to kill everyone.

Uhh isn't that proof enough? It's properly foreshadowed in the narrative, it fits with the entire plot of 3, and helps provide a solution to the mystery.

>>11696453
>I fail to see how Eva being with Battler prohibits her from shooting him.
Eva could not fucking kill Jessica and whomever is sitting in the room with Jessica WHEN BATTLER WAS WITH HER THE ENTIRE FUCKING TIME AS IT SAYS IN THE RED FUCKING TRUTH.

Holy fuck, it's like you didn't even read the VN.

>>11696454
It's not bullshit, you're just getting bent all out of shape over something obvious.

>There is no proof to assume that Yasu didn't fucking notice other than the fact that it explains why Yasu continued to kill everyone.
No, the entire scene about Eva and Rosa's avarice getting the best of them is all the proof you need. The purpose of that entire scene is to set up the tragedy that follows. If anything at all, the two Ushiromiya sisters are to blame for putting petty personal disputes ahead of common sense when all the servants had just been murdered the day prior.

Logically and thematically, it fits perfectly into the plot.

>>11696460
But Jessica didn't get killed in EP3?

>Holy fuck, it's like you didn't even read the VN.
Oh the irony.

>>11696461
It was never fucking foreshadowed that Yasu, or whoever the killer is, was not paying attention to the Gold and everyone trying to solve it.

Just because you think it fits because you don't have to think doesn't lesser the burden that Yasu didn't follow through on her promise and kept killing nor was there any proof of Yasu finding out that Eva found the gold at the end of the game because Eva never said a fucking word about the gold to anyone except Rosa who was killed soon afterwards.

>>11696457
>No they fucking didn't.

Yes they did.

>It still doesn't explain why she would have killed everyone.

Well, she didn't. She killed Maria yeah, but with Rudolf, Kyrie, and Hideyoshi she was just the one lucky enough to survive the shoot out. Heck, maybe Rudolf and Kyrie started shooting first!

>>11696460
Why do you think Battler is crying and accusing Eva of being the culprit at the end? Because he just saw Eva shoot Jessica and Yasu.

>>11696467
I'm not the one saying Eva went in and killed Jessica and whoever was with her in her room.

Eva could not have killed anyone and Yasu should not have killed anyone if they solved the epitaph, not if they told the heavens that they did.

My point is that there is no proof of Eva killing anyone nor is there anything for Yasu to just randomly keep killing people and not keep her goddamn word.

>>11696472
>Why do you think Battler is crying and accusing Eva of being the culprit at the end?
Wow, you really are retarded.
Battler was screaming at Eva that she was the culprit because they were the only people left.
And Eva and Battler were in the main parlor. Not in the bedroom where Jessica was.
Eva never shot anyone.

>>11696472
>Why do you think Battler is crying and accusing Eva of being the culprit at the end? Because he just saw Eva shoot Jessica and Yasu.
Um no, Battler doesn't even see Yasu until EP4. You'd figure he would realize something amiss with the presumably dead Shannon/Kanon walking around again. The way the VN has it, Jessica and Nanjo go to the servants' room after the gunshot blinds Jessica and Battler stays with Eva. At the same time that Battler confronts Eva about her murders, Yasu creeps up and finishes off Nanjo while an incapacitated Jessica cowers in fear.

>>11696481
>And Eva and Battler were in the main parlor. Not in the bedroom where Jessica was.

Uh no. The narration specifically says that Kanon lead Jessica into the parlor.

>Eva never shot anyone.

Yes she did, at the very least she shot Battler, seeing as he was right there to see her shoot him.

>>11696490
>Yes she did, at the very least she shot Battler, seeing as he was right there to see her shoot him.
Okay, yeah, right, sorry, she did shoot Battler.
But other than him, she didn't shoot or kill anyone.

Also, when did Yasu find out about Eva finding out about the gold if Yasu killed Nanjo right before the end of the game?

>>11696501
Never.
She thought everyone was killing each other out of paranoia.

>>11696495
>But other than him, she didn't shoot or kill anyone.
Um, no. Battler explicitly proves that Eva left her room during Rosa and Maria's murders and accuses her of being the culprit. Not only does she not deny this, her reply is "Took you long enough to notice, Battler!"

>>11696501
She never does, ergo the continued killings.

>>11696495
>But other than him, she didn't shoot or kill anyone.

Except for Rosa, Maria, Rudolf, Kyrie... At least she was directly involved for those deaths.

I don't get why you're so opposed to this. 3 was meant to be "easy mode" so it threw out some easy puzzles (the deaths Eva was responsible for), but in the end took off the training wheels with some harder stuff (everything to do with Yasu)

>>11696454
I don't think Erika just couldn't saw Shanon and Kanon thogether for a moment even if she was distracted. Your point cannot prove that Erika didn't saw the for the same reason. She never stated that she didn't saw at least one of them like when she explicity stated that she didn't saw kinzo, the same way, she never stated that she actually saw them.

>>11696443
Well, that Shannon and Kanon are in the same room is a given. (When are they not?) So if the POV is Battler's, there shouldn't be a problem, since he's not designated as the detective. Thus, he might metaphorically perceive both personalities as separate, while they are in fact physically housed in one body.

The question therefore becomes whether or not Erika is aware that both Kanon and Shannon are gathered in room at the same time, as opposed to perhaps thinking that one of them is slaving away in the kitchen or somesuch.

>>11696531
Basically Lambda was a real dick of a game master. She told the game all through Battler's POV, knowing he was unreliable as Yasu's accomplice in this pointless revenge drama she cooked up.

When Erika was in the room she just had Battler say everyone was in the room, and Erika never bothered to ask in more detail

>>11696537
>>11696539
Like I can totally imagine Lambda pulling the "you never asked" card before busting into a fit of ahaha.wav giggles.

"You said everyone was in the room!"
"And I did! Not my fault you assumed incorrect information from that!

>>11696425
> IF YASU FUCKING KILLED NAJO, THEN WHY THE FUCK DID SHE KILL HIM WHEN EVA ALREADY SOLVED THE FUCKING EPITAPH.

Maybe Eva DIDN'T solve the epitaph.

Every episode had at least one accomplice among the parents who was bribed or threatened into cooperating, and the only way for Yasu to back up the bribe or threat is to take the accomplice to the gold room. If Eva was threatened into cooperating in exchange for her family's lives, Yasu could frame her for the 2nd-8th twilights without fear of being revealed. It'd basically be the same trick as EP5, forcing a patsy to remain isolated so they become the obvious suspect.

>>11696537
Exactly, that's the problem. Erika never stated "i saw Shanon and Kanon together" but also she never stated "i didn't saw Shanon" or "i didn't saw Kanon". It's sure that Shanon was with Erika and Kumasawa before they entered, so, at least is sure that she specifically saw Shanon.

>>11696592
I don't think Erika cared much about Shannon or Kanon. She was basically focused like a latter on Natsuhi.

Then in 6 Battler chucks all this stuff saying "Oh hey Shannon and Kanon are real important" and Erika's response is just to try and rape him.

>>11696573
>Maybe Eva DIDN'T solve the epitaph.
Except she did?

Christ, don't cheapen her resolution.

>>11696454
"She looked sightly younger that Battler and Jessica". Is battler talking about himself in third person?. It's the same scene, but battler is not the only one that talks in his own pov, in this case is clearly Lambda. Ok, Lambda is not reliable because she is the one that pulls the illusions, but this also states that the entire scene is not narrated only by Battler, how we know that part of the scene are viewed by Erika?

>>11696607
Probably the narrator (you) detailing her introduction and description of what Erika looks like/
Further on, I guess, the narrative changes to Battler as he is the one presenting the people in the guest room.

>>11696607
We don't. I think it's one of those things Lambda did that could be done with the gameboard, but Beatrice wouldn't.

Like, normally even if Beato had a segment in the third person, she wouldn't chuck anything impossible in the scene if Battler's piece was there, because even if strictly it's not a hard coded rule that his mere presence makes things reliable it'd be a bit unfair to show magic scenes from the third person around the supposed reliable peice.

Lambda, however, is all like "let's do this unreliable third person!" And does things like have Erika in the study summoning magic inquisitors from heaven and Battler being romantic with Beato just because it's not strictly from the detective's POV.

>>11696601
Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that character development in a fantasy scene was grounds for believing it actually happened. Let me go apologize to Kinzo.

>>11696607
Ugh, forget it, the narrator in this case is meta-battler, and he explicitly says:

>'I' glanced around at the humans in the parlor.

>The guest, Furudo Erika. And behind her, Kumasawa-san and Shannon-chan, Off to the side was Genji-san.

>Krauss oji-san and Natsuhi oba-san were welcoming the guest.

>Ghoda-san immediately started showing off, and Kanon-kun was being unsociable wearing his usual blank expression.

>There was Dad and Kyrie-san. Eva oba-san and Hideyoshi oji-san. Rosa oba-san and Maria. And Doctor Nanjo.

>Then, on either side of me, were George-aniki and Jessica...
This is everyone. The true number of people on the island at the moment...

We know that piece-Battler is not reliable, but there is a way to state the reliability of meta-Battler? or meta battler only sees what Lambda shows to him?

>>11696664
Meta-Battler was presumably seeing things through the eye of his piece, so we can assume the perspective wasn't reliable.

Does anyone have that ep6 twilight poster, with Jessica and Kanon and the text along the lines of "you are so dazzling, milady"? I can't find it anywhere.

>>11696669
wasn't he seeing things from outside?

>>11696679
Who knows.

5 is weird because it was Lambda dicking around

>>11696664
Battler goes on later to say that because he saw Kinzo, his account is unreliable.

This however does not prove that the other pieces/people are bias and unreliable.

>>11696684
It actually makes sense why she's dicking around though.

>>11695838

> the "Real Natsuhi" doesn't have Gradient Hair

I'm glad someone finally brought up gradiant-head

>>11692365
What are you talking about?

>>11695799

But Ange breaks down and has a mini-seizure when she sees that sakutaro is mass produced.
Pretty much anything can provoke such a reaction from Ange. Maybe its just the fact that she finally knows the "truth" regardless of what it is, that prompts her reaction

>>11696712
Doesn't explain what the fuck she saw in
>>11692023
>>11692059
>>11692061
>>11692065
>>11692067
>>11692069
>>11692075

I still don't know what the fuck she saw.

>>11695947

The knox rule about servants isn't violated even in EP1 and 2 because Shkanon isn't a servant, they're the new heads of the family. Remember that they acknowledge Yasu as the new Kinzo in EP4

>>11696737
She still acts the role of a servant and should be counted as a servant.

>>11696046

Shkanontrice is implied even in EP1 when Kanon has gay thoughts about Battler and his muscles

>>11696292

Erika is seen by US in the same room with Shanon and Kanon, I'm pretty sure she never acknowledges both of them are in the room at the same time

>>11696705
I remember early on i had so many theories that she was battler's real mom, or related to her or something, because of that red hair. So long I waited for it to come up in the story and it never did. Good times.

>>11696749
but the opposite also is true.

>>11696344

After the apitaph was solved, Yasu didn't stop the murders because Eva and Rosa didn't say anything, and Yasu was busy setting up her riddles. She simply never found out that the epitaph was solved

>>11696760
If Yasu wasn't going to notice someone solving the goddamn epitaph, why even bother giving this ultimatum to the family?
Especially when Yasu very strongly believes in magic and keeping her word?

The single unique part where someone actually solves the epitaph turns out not to matter which is stupid.

To say she just didn't know about it, even though there is no proof, is just a lazy excuse for having Yasu continue killing people even though she should have stopped.

>>11696596

>"Oh hey Shannon and Kanon are real important" and Erika's response is just to try and rape him.

ahahaha

>>11696791
>If Yasu wasn't going to notice someone solving the goddamn epitaph, why even bother giving this ultimatum to the family?

Holy crap it's she's not omnipotent. She's a suicidal teenager with enough money to bribe and trick people.

>To say she just didn't know about it, even though there is no proof

Beatrice says in Red that she keeps her promises. Therefore, the fact that she keeps them has to be an absolute truth about the gameboard.

I really don't get why you and maybe some other guy is so stuck on this. There's a scene right there saying Eva's going to keep it a secret.

It's a mystery, the clues are there. Solve it.

>>11696706

The trick behind Shannon's death EP2 was that she had tied heavy object X to a gun, and let that object dangle behind her dresser, so that when she shot herself, she landed on top of the stake, and the gun was pulled behind the dresser. R07 had specifically requested that the CG of shannon slumped dead on her dresser implied this was what happened.

>>11696732

A bag of sakutaros, she believes that discovering that sakutaro is mass produced was her destiny as the witch of resurrection

>>11696741

You don't have to like it, but it is the way it is

>>11696791

I think Yasu expected the siblings to announce that they had solved the epitaph or for them to all work together like in EP7, seeing none of the tell-tale signs of someone having solved the epitaph, she continued with her plan. Rosa and
Eva and Rosa not telling anyone they had found the gold for selfish reasons is a major plot point, so it's not lazy at all

>>11696741
So?

Van Dine rules don't apply to Umineko, Knox doesn't say anything about servants and it's not even guaranteed that it even follows Knox.

>>11696757
One day, maybe someone will make a mystery visual novel that actually uses visuals. Everything you would ever need to know about Umineko can be gathered from the text alone.

>>11696855

Umineko isn't a VN though its a "sound" novel

Which is basically R07's excuse for putting all of his budget into the soundtrack and leaving the visuals for the remake made by a third party (usually alchemist)

>>11696855

The 39 Steps is a mystery VN with a heavy focus on visuals. It's not japanese though so there's no cute lolis anywhere.
I bought it off amazon on a whim, turned out pretty good.
http://thestorymechanics.com/digital-adaptations/the-thirty-nine-steps/

>>11696813
It's like you don't even read what I type.
Just because Eva and Rosa keep it a secret doesn't explain why Yasu was unable to find out that someone actually solved the epitaph and found the gold.

She should have kept an eye on it and kept her word to stop killing the family and everyone else.
To say that Yasu was a dumb fucking teenager and didn't know because... because, is fucking stupid that Beatrice says she keeps her promises because of the oh so fucking convenient stupid shit that she didn't know.

And, now that I think about it, in the meta, Beatrice gave a ring to schoolgirl Eva after she found the gold and Eva became Eva-Beatrice.
If you convey that to actual events, it would be Yasu giving the ring to Eva and making her the head of the family.

And iirc, before Eva dies of old age at the end of ep 3, she gives the ring to Ange, so it's pretty damn clear that Beatrice gave the ring to Eva.

Yasu knew about Eva finding out about someone finding the gold, crowned that person to be the next head of the family, yet Yasu kept killing?

No, there's a clear contradiction there.

>>11696825
That happened outside of the gameboard and Beatrice was already present, waiting for the family.
There's also the issue of ep 5 where Erika and Battler both announce that they found the gold yet the murder continue.
So the whole ''oh, Yasu is a dumb bitch who didn't know'' doesn't work in ep 5.

Buuuut, people are going to bring up how Lambda probably twisted Yasu and everyone else for whatever reason and does not count for some reason. As if a witch was controlling Yasu from not following up on her promise (see the joke?) and would be in violation of Knox 2nd as you can't prove that it was due to a supernatural agency that controlled Yasu to not follow up on her promise in ep 5.

And if someone mentions again how Yasu acted stupid or didn't follow her own fucking rules because she's stupid, I think I'm going to burst a vein.

Now hopefully you'll get it.

>>11697118

What is this argument about again? Are you trying to prove that Umineko is poorly written? Because everyone already knows that

>>11697127
No, no, it's much simpler than that.

I'm trying to get people to see there's a contradiction in Yasu being able to kill people in ep 3.

Yasu says she will stop killing people yet kills people.
The argument that ''huuurrr she just didn't know'' is of poor quality.

Ryukishi plans his shit, he wouldn't have made a clear contradiction like this.
No no, there's a much simpler answer if people see the contradiction.

>>11697134

I still don't understand what your point is

>>11697134
>there's a contradiction in Yasu being able to kill people in ep 3.
>Yasu says she will stop killing people
Right.

>yet kills people.
She doesn't.

End of your contradiction. I wish you good luck with your Umineko comprehension. If you have any more problem with simple question such as ``who is the mother of Battler?'' or ``what is the meaning of the Golden Witch title?'', I would be more than happy to link you to thread where such questions were solved five, maybe six years ago.

>>11697147

Shh... People who have their beliefs challenged only dig in their heels. Let him believe in Rosatrice or whatever the fuck he wants, we'll just laugh behind his back later.

>>11697138
The point is that Rosatrice makes sense on that single point in why the murders continued in ep3.

Eva solved the epitaph, Rosa immediately followed behind her, crowned her the new head the moment Eva got the old, like the meta showed, and followed her word and stopped killing.
Then George, in a fit of rage, asked Rosa to keep killing and killed Rosa by accident and then killed Maria and continued the plan to kill everyone even though the epitaph was solved.

If Yasu never found out about Eva solving the epitaph, she wouldn't have received the ring and Yasu should have stopped the killing.
But if someone else continued the killings, it makes sense.

It also explains why the murders continued even though the were supposed to stop rather than just assume Yasu was a dumb teen who couldn't follow up the only way to win the game.

>>11697147
Oh my fucking god, do you even read this thread or am I talking to people who don't know how the fuck ep 3 even went down?
Eva could not have killed everyone since she was with Battler most of the time and Yasu had to have kept her word if someone found the gold.

Telling me I can't read and making fun of me doesn't fucking end the goddamn contradiction.
It's like you don't even fucking understand the point I'm making and would rather just laugh at me without saying anything about it.

>she kills people
>lel no she doesn't
Wow, it's fucking nothing. Great deduction asshole.

Either Yasu killed everyone because she didn't know anyone solved the epitaph and killed up to Nanjo, meaning fucking everyone. Or that Eva killed people along with Yasu out of paranoia, which is never foreshadowed in the slightest and the opposite is more true as Rosa and Eva both conclude that killing for money is bad, and doesn't explain where Eva got her ring and how it fit with the meta.

>>11697152
Knox 9th.
I can believe what I want.

>>11697156

You sure can, bud

>>11697156
>Telling me I can't read and making fun of me doesn't fucking end the goddamn contradiction.
>It's like you don't even fucking understand the point I'm making and would rather just laugh at me without saying anything about it.

damn. got some good greentext here, great theories too. loving that rosa idea some posters have, didnt think of it myself. another great umineko thread guys.

>>11697173

If you're interested in the Rosatrice theory go to youtube and look up KnownNoMore's 9-hour ramble marathon.

>>11697160
My theory > your theory
My taste is shit but who cares about that, right?.

>>11697167
I'm explaining my point and people say the same stupid shit of ''lel Yasu is stupid and didn't know'' or that Eva was paranoid even though there's no evidence to point towards that other than to explain how murder could have continued without Yasu's knowledge.

I love how you fail to disprove it other than laugh and use greentext.
Either way, interpretations can be heard and the validity of a claim can be questioned if things don't hold up.

I proved a contradiction between Yasu not holding her promise and her not actually knowing about it even though she should have followed through with it.

And I honestly don't give a shit about Rosatrice or Yasu or whomever actually committed the crime.
What matters is the discussion. That's all I'm curious about.
Laughing at someone for having different ideas is pretty fucking low.

>>11697183

There's no need to disprove anything. You're going to believe whatever you want and no one can stop you. Arguments are the most useless practices ever. In the end, the winner is simply who talks more and loudest, neither side changes their stance or questions their beliefs when it's over either. It's a waste of time, breath, and energy. So go ahead and believe whatever you want, I certainly won't stop you.

>>11697187
I agree but opinions can be shared, or maybe I'm still too naive, and I was hoping that if I made my point, a better argument would arise but the same thing is being said.

So I guess you're right and the whole thing is a waste of time.
Either way, as long as my opinion is made, it can be changed, it can change other who are undecided or it can further the discussion for another time.
Who knows, it doesn't matter but it doesn;t necessarily mean it's a waste of time.

>>11697197

Sharing opinions is a discussion, what you're looking for is an argument

You came and said "This doesn't make sense"
Others said "It actually does because X, Y, and Z"
This was still a discussion until you responded with "No, that's stupid."

If you want to continue the discussion without shutting it down into circular argument of "You're wrong, I'm right." you need to put forth your own ideas about why the contradiction is there instead of just waiting for people to come up with more reasons as to why there's a contradiction so that you can inflate your ego as you shut down their ideas.

>>11697201
Fine then.

Explain why Yasu killed everyone in ep3 if Beatrice supposedly gave the ring to Eva, thereby knowing beforehand that someone actually solved the Epitaph and should have kept her word, but didn't.

Or any proof that Eva went ''paranoid'' and killed Rosa and Maria and a bunch of other people even though a couple dozen minutes/hours ago, Eva and Rosa both agreed that killing for money is wrong.

I said it was stupid because it actually is. Yasu doesn't follow up on her promise even though she should and the answer being given to me is that Yasu is just a fucking stupid kid. I mean, did you even read the thread or are you just blinded by what people are answering to me?

I don't think I can't detail it clearer than that.
If you're going to just say I'm shutting myself from opinions, then I'm all fucking ears and opinions.

Yasu should not have killed people, Eva said killing people for money is bad.
Both are contradictory of the evidence shown of events that were shown.

>Others said "It actually does because X, Y, and Z"
Yeah, reread that, everyone has said that it's because Yasu didn't know.
Why? How? Who cares, she's not Omnipitent, how the fuck could she know?
Did you even read the thread?

>>11697209

>Explain to me

Stopped reading.

Already done. You don't have to like it, but that's the end of this topic. You can keep speculating about what this perceived contradiction means by yourself, though.

Well since the primary question posted by me on the OP has been answered, I'm deleting the thread, later

>>11697229

Apparently, I can't do that anymore ;-;

Maybe we should open a new umineko general thread or something

>>11697229
>I'm deleting the thread
Hahahaha if only!

Why was this even implemented? Because moot's programmers are too stupid to implement post delays otherwise?

Is Umineko really still ongoing?
Why hasn't this shit ended?

>>11697118
>Just because Eva and Rosa keep it a secret doesn't explain why Yasu was unable to find out that someone actually solved the epitaph and found the gold.
Are you fucking retarded? Read what you wrote again.

>>11697317
it was precisely for this reason, so that people couldn't just arbitrarly delete their topics like >>11697229 tried to, to forcefully stop a discussion for whatever selfish reason.

especially if it was blamed on meido later on.

>>11697209
>Explain why Yasu killed everyone in ep3 if Beatrice supposedly gave the ring to Eva, thereby knowing beforehand that someone actually solved the Epitaph and should have kept her word, but didn't.
You're assuming that Eva actually received the ring when it was shown in the meta, but as we know, Eva and Yasu were two of the last survivors at the time the game ended. It is entirely plausible for Yasu to find out about Eva's discovery of the gold after Battler and Nanjo's murders, therefore handing over the ring at that time. EP3's narrative shows the real Eva in possession of the ring.

>Or any proof that Eva went ''paranoid'' and killed Rosa and Maria and a bunch of other people even though a couple dozen minutes/hours ago, Eva and Rosa both agreed that killing for money is wrong.
Eva admits to being the culprit of Rosa and Maria's murders. Deal with it.

>I said it was stupid because it actually is. Yasu doesn't follow up on her promise even though she should and the answer being given to me is that Yasu is just a fucking stupid kid. I mean, did you even read the thread or are you just blinded by what people are answering to me?
As many have said before, the whole "let's keep it a secret between us" dialogue is a key plot point. You keep asking for proof like some autistic manchild although it's right there in front of you.

>Yasu should not have killed people, Eva said killing people for money is bad.
Both are contradictory of the evidence shown of events that were shown.
Read the fucking novel. Eva has no compunctions about killing and even gloats in Battler's face before shooting him.

>>11697375
*EP3's narrative _never_ shows the real Eva in possession of the ring.

>>11696306
I actually like this in a way. It's heartwarming how Rosa would kill her shitty family in order to revive Beatrice. They could have become good friends. Except the rest of the theory is bullshit.

By the way, I really like Yasu as a character and refuse to accept any theory that denies her existence. Not only am I fine with the official explanation, I actually LIKE it.

Also, Yasu isn't the culprit. She isn't the person behind Shkanontrice either. She simply doesn't exist anymore, as she became Beatrice (and physically Shannon). Just like Young Eva or Little Girl Jessica don't exist in 1986.

>>11696344
>Why else would she not have gone in Natsuhi's room if the charm wasn't there and if Yasu didn't believe in magic?
People really, really underestimate how much Maria influenced this whole thing. Yasu planned to kill everyone in Beatrice's name for her. That's what prevented her from simply shooting everyone to death or silently activating the bomb.

Can you imagine how happy Maria was when weird shit that even adults couldn't figure out began to happen? Or when Beatrice actually appeared before the cousins at the end of EP1, when there was no time left for Battler to find out who she was? It's magic!

I used to call Maria an idiot, but now I remember how I used to believe in Santa until I turned 11.

>>11696320
According to that theory, Rosa was completely nuts. She killed her entire family because she actually believed in magic.

Yasu wanted to end everything anyway, it's not the same thing at all. She just did all that bullshit (trapping an entire family in Suicide Island) because she wanted a catbox where Kanon AND Shannon could appear as humans to the outside world, rather than hopeless furniture.

>>11696409
Dude, Eva killed Rosa accidentally. She got mad and pushed her towards the fence. It was just bad luck. She had to kill Maria afterwards.

Here, I denied you entire fucking post.

>>11696425
>IF YASU FUCKING KILLED NAJO, THEN WHY THE FUCK DID SHE KILL HIM WHEN EVA ALREADY SOLVED THE FUCKING EPITAPH.
Because only Eva knew about that. The other survivors didn't know that the epitaph was solved.

As far as the other survivors know, the epitaph hasn't been solved. It makes sense for the witch to keep killing people. If she stopped, it would be proof that she doesn't exist.

Even with Maria dead, Beatrice still wants to make Battler believe in her existence.

>>11696425
>isn't that a bit too fucking late.
You can't blame her. Eva accidentally hijacked her game AND killed the person she was doing all that witch bullshit for. I would lose interest too.

>>11696573
It's kind of obvious that Krauss and Natsuhi are the accomplices in that episode.

>>11696537
>both personalities
They are identities. Calling them personalities only creates confusion.

>>11697156
>The point is that Rosatrice makes sense on that single point in why the murders continued in ep3.

No it doesn't.

Rosatrice doesn't make sense at all. Period. It's a nonsensical "theory" that ignores the story.

I should have known you're an idiot troll, deliberately ignoring the narrative.

"1 + 1 = 2"

"YOU CAN'T PROVE THAT HERE LOOK SEE IT ACTUALLY EQUALS 5!"

Rosatrice, ladies and gentlemen.

>>11697375
There's also the fact that Episode 3 is just another fictional narrative about Rokkenjima. Just because we see that in the real world Eva got the ring, doesn't mean anything about 3. Since 3 is just another fantasy in the first place.

>>11697340
This is a guy who demands that Yasu be omnipotent and know everything on the island at once.

Meanwhile he totally supports George changing the times on all the clocks for no reason, dropping a letter in a hallway, and then backflipping away like a ninja.

>>11696539
This is very interesting. Can you explain what the hell happened in EP5? I never quite understood it. What happened to Yasu's original plan? How many people were accomplices? What was the goal? Did the entire family just decide to troll Erika? Why? And why did they all die in the end?

Is the "Kinzo" that Battler supposedly saw simply his memory of Yasu telling him about the location of the gold?

>>11697498
> Can you explain what the hell happened in EP5?

Well, there's two points. On a meta level Lambda is making a story that does things Beatrice "could do" but "wouldn't do." The metaphor used is that while you can't use a chess set to play poker, you can use them to throw the pieces at people and draw on the chessboard. But normally a person wouldn't do that, because that's not the point of a chess set.

> What happened to Yasu's original plan?

As such, in Lambda's game she basically had Yasu not do her real plan at all. Instead she had Yasu take up the name "Lion" once again, and seek to get revenge on Natsuhi for throwing him off a cliff all those years ago, with the rest of the family being killed for all the horrible things they did to him as well.

>How many people were accomplices?

Pretty much everyone but Natsuhi and Krauss. Yasu bribed Battler to set things up, and got all the adults and kids in on it. For the adults he said they were going to pressure Natsuhi into admitting Kinzo is dead, for the kids he said it was going to be a fake murder mystery prank.

>What was the goal?

To get revenge on Natsuhi and the rest of the Ushriomiya family.

>Did the entire family just decide to troll Erika?

Erika was just a convenient patsy. I mean, come on, she couldn't really have magical authority to investigate crime scenes, gather clues and whatnot. The adults let her play detective to help corner Natsuhi by making it look like she was the culprit.

>And why did they all die in the end?

Yasu set the bomb to blow without telling anybody, that's why.

>Is the "Kinzo" that Battler supposedly saw simply his memory of Yasu telling him about the location of the gold?

Possibly, or maybe it's simply that Yasu ordered Battler to say that Kinzo showed him the way. Either one works.

>>11697118
Why are you even arguing this? Did you not even read ep3 or realize that the whole Evatrice thing means someone else took over for the murders? Could have been someone other than Eva, but IT WASNT YASU. Yasu DID stop the murders after the first twilight. Then Eva and Rosa found the gold and the rest of the murders were done by someone else. That's why the rest of them were so sloppy compared to the closed room loop of the first twilight. Yasu is the only one who gave two shits about the mystery aspect.

>>11696791
>Especially when Yasu very strongly believes in magic and keeping her word
But that's false. She doesn't believe in magic and she lies all the goddamn time. Did you see how that witch killed Kumasawa in Our Confession after promising her that it was just a game?

>>11696825
Does this mean that the entire family could have escaped alive with the gold if only Rosa and Eva had announced their discovery?

>>11697339
It did end, like 2 years ago. But nothing was solved and people still get assmad about it.

>>11697534
Yes.

I don't see why everyone is trying to argue that Eva killed Rosa "by accident" in EP3. She clearly conspired with Hideyoshi to construct an alibi for herself prior to the murder even occurring.

If that's not premeditated, I don't know what it is.

>>11697540
>I don't see why everyone is trying to argue that Eva killed Rosa "by accident" in EP3. She clearly conspired with Hideyoshi to construct an alibi for herself prior to the murder even occurring.

Her general reaction is not someone who deliberately planned to commit murder.

What likely happened is that Eva snuck back to the guesthouse, and convinced Hideyoshi to provide an alibi after the fact.

Or perhaps she had Hideyoshi lie about it the first time because she wanted to keep her meeting with Rosa a secret. Either one works.

>>11697535
Everything was solved. The author even explicitly acknowledged that Shkannontrice was what he was going for all along, for the handful of retards who couldn't catch on after everything was laid out before them.

Anyone still trying to argue otherwise is just some fucking autist with too much time and too little grey matter.

>>11697542
I disagree. Everything about her demeanor suggests that she had been planning to kill Rosa as soon as the latter solved the riddle. The whole "let's keep this a secret between you and me" thing is a trope in fiction for a good reason.

In fact, she completely drops her facade when Battler presents her with the evidence of her crimes. To recycle your own words: "Her general reaction is not someone who accidentally committed murder."

>>11697576
>In fact, she completely drops her facade when Battler presents her with the evidence of her crimes.

Did you look at the expression she had?

Eva had just snapped by the end.

The narrative is constantly saying about how the stress is just causing her to lose her grip on reality.

Would /jp/ be disappointed if Maria was his only loli cousin?

>>11697609
Not at all! I'd cuddle with her for hours and hours while playing pretend like real autists. Lolis have all the time in the world.

>>11697588
>Did you look at the expression she had? Eva had just snapped by the end.
No, that's just your personal, flawed interpretation.

As far as I'm concerned, the entire narrative was about Eva struggling with her lifelong desire to become head of the Ushiromiya household and about how the temptation drove her to insane lengths. Eva-Beatrice was merely a personification of that desire. You'll notice that as the rational Eva grows progressively weaker and frailer during the episode, Eva-Beatrice becomes increasingly assertive - merely a metaphor for Eva losing to temptation time and time again.

>>11697609
I'd marry Rosa and make her my only daughteru.

>>11697609
I want to become Rosa's 9 year old son and share the abuse with Maria while we cry together like real lovers!

>>11697616
>he would cuddle with the 4th grader
Bad taste much? Rosa is love. Rosa is life.

>>11697423
>She simply doesn't exist anymore, as she became Beatrice

Thank you, so many people don't get this fucking point. Yasu threw away that identity to become Beatrice when she was younger, which become more solidified after she solved the epitaph.

In other words, 3 persons share one physical vessel on Rokkenjima. Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice. When Beatrice put herself on the gameboards in the 2nd and 4th games it should have been obvious what that implied.

The funny thing is Beato at any point could have said in Red "Everyone was killed by me, Beatrice." In the 4th game without any contradiction but that would have been a suicide move due to implications.

>>11697673
Ehhh actually I think in the 4th game things got derailed a bit and maybe Beato didn't kill everyone there.

Plus Beato did refer to herself in the first person with the Red a few times, such as when she stated she gave Maria the letter in Episode 2.

But yeah, Beatrice could have referred to her actions with the Red at any time and it would have worked. But it would have meant that either A) Battler refuses to accept the Red and the game hits stalemate, or B) Battler figures out the whole "persona death" thing a lot earlier.

>>11697673
I think you're the one who doesn't get it.

'Yasu' is the name used by readers to refer to the corporeal human who goes around committing crimes, as clearly the 'Shannon' and 'Kanon' identities can't be said to be culprits and 'Beatrice' refers an incorporeal being, a witch. Yasu metaphysically becomes Beatrice through the illusion of the witch, but it doesn't change the fact that without it, he/she is still a human being, and therefore distinct from Beatrice.

>>11697682
The great thing about it is that since the "Beatrice" persona is fundamentally built on being an actual witch, she doesn't have to count herself as a human when using red, or as one of the 17 depending on her wording.

>Ehhh actually I think in the 4th game things got derailed a bit and maybe Beato didn't kill everyone there.

My understanding after another play-through was in the 4th game she presented herself to the adults as the new Ushiromiya head at the very beginning.

She probably suggested a "game" to decide the next head out of the cousins, and told the adults to play along by bribing them as well. This starts with Kumasawa and Genji making up scene of the first twilight and ends with Beatrice killing people for real through the night when they think they are just pretending.

Maria is given a peaceful death with poison either before or after Beatrice confronts Battler on the roof. When Battler can't remember his promise after it being shoved in his face Beatrice says "fuck this gay Earth" and leaves to change into Shannon's clothes and shoot herself with a weighted pistol that falls into the well.

Battler walking around and discovering the corpses one by one lets us know he is completely alone for the entire 24 hours before the bomb goes off and kills him.

The only thing that weirds me out about this scenario is that it doesn't follow the pattern of all the murders happening on 5th before midnight, happening an entire day earlier and leaving Battler to solve it all alone. Perhaps this is a desperate Beatrice who made the strongest attempt to get him to understand her?

>>11697685
I think he does get it.

>'Yasu' is the name used by readers to refer to the corporeal human who goes around committing crimes
And that's perfectly fine. It would be annoying if we had to say "Shkanontrice" all the time.

The problem is that some dumb fucks see Yasu as a fourth persona, even though saying "Yasu" is exactly the same as saying "Shkanontrice", and use this new "persona" to get around the red and prove other people wrong.

>Yasu metaphysically becomes Beatrice through the illusion of the witch, but it doesn't change the fact that without it, he/she is still a human being, and therefore distinct from Beatrice.
It doesn't matter, she still doesn't exist. She isn't the person behind Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice, she IS those three personas.

>>11697707
>The problem is that some dumb fucks see Yasu as a fourth persona
I've never seen anyone make that claim.

>>11697703
>The only thing that weirds me out about this scenario is that it doesn't follow the pattern of all the murders happening on 5th before midnight,

That's why I think that things got derailed. Basically there ended up being another shootout, lots of people end up dead. But at the very least Beatrice survives to meet Battler, and Battler's all like "herp derp sin whats that" and so she kills herself and maybe Maria.

>>11697713
>I've never seen anyone make that claim.

You've clearly never spent any time in depth with someone trying to "prove" rosatrice.

I have seem them argue that if Yasu exists, then Shannon, Kanon, Claire, Beatrice, Yasu, and heck sometimes even Gaap, would count as people, breaking the Red Truth that there are no more then 17 humans on the island.

>>11697703
>The great thing about it is that since the "Beatrice" persona is fundamentally built on being an actual witch, she doesn't have to count herself as a human when using red, or as one of the 17 depending on her wording.
It doesn't have anything to do with Beatrice being a witch. She wouldn't be able to count herself as one of the people in the island even if she wasn't a witch.

The difference between Beatrice and Kanon, besides their nature, is that only one of them is officially considered a real person. The relatives don't see anything wrong with Kanon and the servants go along with it. Beatrice is seen as a fairy tale character, she doesn't show herself and her being a witch doesn't help either.

>>11697716
The issue I have with that theory is Kumasawa and Gohda's testimony of magic killing everyone. If they managed to escape such a horrific human murder they have no incentive to make up a story that benefits Beatrice.

It also explains why Gohda unlocked the shutter for someone he thought he could trust only for him and Kumasawa to be murdered and hung.

>>11697732
>The issue I have with that theory is Kumasawa and Gohda's testimony of magic killing everyone.

At that point they were following Yasu's script. The derailing happened after they had left to tell the story.

>It also explains why Gohda unlocked the shutter for someone he thought he could trust only for him and Kumasawa to be murdered and hung.

Actually I don't think the shed was ever unlocked. Basically Gohda and Kumasawa faked their suicides by pretending to hang themselves, but someone shot them through the window afterwords.

>>11697400
>You're assuming that Eva actually received the ring when it was shown in the meta, but as we know, Eva and Yasu were two of the last survivors at the time the game ended. It is entirely plausible for Yasu to find out about Eva's discovery of the gold after Battler and Nanjo's murders, therefore handing over the ring at that time. EP3's narrative shows the real Eva in possession of the ring.
I am, but the narrative of the meta scene directly shows Eva receiving the ring and becoming Eva-Beatrice.
Becoming Beatrice means becoming the head of the family. Everyone knows that.
Also that event directly happened right after Eva found the gold.

To say that it happened at the end, even though the meta scene for it points towards Eva receiving the ring when she found the gold, rather than at the end of the game which is never shown, is completely speculative and without basis.
Eva received the ring after finding the gold.
Deal with it.

Yasu should have stopped killing. She didn't.

>Eva admits to being the culprit of Rosa and Maria's murders. Deal with it.
So you're using the confession at the end, with the killer confessing as proof?
Seriously?
No evidence other than the killer saying ''it's me!!!''
How boring, you have nothing.
Knox 8st, It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.
If your only proof is that Eva said so, then you have nothing to show for it.
I asked for evidence, you say ''duh she says she it at the end''.
How mundane.

>>11697400
Yes it does, at the end of ep 3 when Eva give the ring to Ange.

>>11697489
Oh wow, you're the 1+1 faggot.
Seems you can't do the math this time.

1-2 = -1 =/= 1
Seems you can't read either.

>>11697127
>Are you trying to prove that Umineko is poorly written? Because everyone already knows that
R07 isn't the most elegant writer around. His writing is... Well, just look at this:

>Sure, they (R07's sound novels) may be very guttural at times. They are raw, filled with pure emotion, narration devolving into screams or cries or words of joy. Yet this is the strength of them— they are pure emotion and pure heart.

But I actually love his writing. It's perfect as it is. He does have actual problems, though, like when he goes on and on about obvious points. But I don't think that's enough to call him a "mediocre writer". And if you are talking about plot holes or the way he handles the plot, well, he is one of my favorite writers because he always plans his shit. I've never seen a real plot hole in any of his works.

One can be a good writer regardless of the format. I disagree with people that claim that only actual books can be worthy of recognition or that all visual novels are a joke that only nerds can enjoy.

>>11697779
>Eva received the ring after finding the gold. Deal with it.
In your own words:
>completely speculative and without basis

>Knox 8st, It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.
The cigarette butt is the clue fulfilling Knox's 8th, moron. The confession is just the final nail in the hammer confirming Battler's theory.

>Yes it does, at the end of ep 3 when Eva give the ring to Ange.
The narrative never shows Eva in possession of the ring on the game board, you autist.

>>11697779
>Eva received the ring after finding the gold.
Nope. There goes your theory.

>Yes it does, at the end of ep 3 when Eva give the ring to Ange.
The future world is always independent from the gameboards. That scene had nothing to do with "Banquet". Eva didn't receive the ring in EP3, and she died in every other episode. All these stories are fake, EP3 is not supposed to be consistent with anything after 1986.

>>11697785
Even if Umineko were an actual novel instead of being a VN, it would be a mystery novel, which are jokes and only things nerds can enjoy.

>>11697730
..except Beatrice placed herself as a "person" acknowledged by people in gameboards 2 and 4 and refers to herself in Red on occasion.

>>11697739
eh..honestly that would be way too convoluted and coincidental. The described in detail exactly who was killed, and what type of wound they had which matched up with the later corpses. If it had been hijacked it wouldn't have ended up exactly like they were told to say.

>Actually I don't think the shed was ever unlocked. Basically Gohda and Kumasawa faked their suicides by pretending to hang themselves, but someone shot them through the window afterwords.

They were shot precisely in the head in the exact same spot. Its very hard to imagine pulling that off from a strange angle from a tiny window without the other person getting out of their noose when they see the one next to them get killed.

I think its much more likely that they opened the shutter and we shot immediately. Then after locking the shutter the key was put into Gohda's pocket via a hook or stick from the window.

>>11697779
You're an idiot.

Just because the real Eva has the ring as shown in the EP3 ???? doesn't mean she ever got it in the fictional story called Banquet of the Golden Witch.

>Yasu should have stopped killing. She didn't.

Because she DIDN'T KNOW THE EPITAPH HAD BEEN SOLVED.

>If your only proof is that Eva said so, then you have nothing to show for it.

Eva shooting the detective in the face is pretty good proof .

>>11697804
Umineko is a novel ABOUT mystery novels. What now, mystery nerd?

>>11697779
>Seems you can't read either.

Says the person who can't seem to comprehend that a person can't find out something that's being kept a secret.

>>11697779
Please stop trolling. No one can actually be this stupid.

>>11697831
To be fair, he's a proponent of Rosatrice, so this really doesn't come as a surprise.

>>11697805
She only shows herself in those episodes, though. Beatrice isn't acknowledged a real person until she actually uses her physical body to play her role.

No, that's not it. She is supposedly killing people in order to become a real person like Kanon. That's why she doesn't count as one of the people on the island in the games.

>>11697831
>Please stop trolling. No one can actually be this stupid.

You underestimate rosatrice supporters.

He genuinely thinks that Battler lied about George's alibi in 3 for Rosa and Maria's death, that somehow George and Shannon stabbed each other with paperweights in 2, and that Rosa is obsessed with Shannon for no discernible reason despite Rosa and Shannon barely interacting in the series, and finally that literally believes in magic and wants to bring Beatrice back to life with a murder ritual.

>>11697739
It's obvious that Jessica and Kyrie were following Yasu's script. There was no derail.

>that Rosa literally believes in magic

>>11697846
>that Rosa literally believes in magic

>>11697831
What is that theory based on, anyway? It sounds to me like KnowNoMore randomly noticed that "something" was up with Rosa in EP2 and concluded that she must be the mastermind. And then proceeded to make up bullshit motives and solve every episode with Rosa and Joji as the culprits.

Is it really as bad as it sounds?

>>11697798
It isn't speculative when there's a fucking meta scene of the event.
I just fucking explained it.

>>11697807
>The future world is always independent from the gameboards.

You're wrong for ep 3.
Ep 3 and ep 4 future events are fictional and meant to be related and continuation of the events on ep 3 rather than what happened post Prime.

Perfect example is that Ange goes on the island and gets killed from the mafioso.
In ep 6, Ange meets with Ikuko and tells her to stop writing her in her stories.

Ange never went to the island and this part is all just a fiction created by Tohya.
This suggest that past episodes with Ange in them were connected and fictional.

Ep 3 leads directly to the events of ep 4 post-island and are both fictional, meaning that Eva giving the ring to Ange comes from Eva receiving the ring from solving the Epitaph and finding the gold in ep 3.

>>11697808
Eva received the ring in Ep 3 in the meta scene and later shown to have it outside of the events on the island.

>Eva shooting the detective in the face is pretty good proof
Fucking idiot.
I'm asking for proof at the beginning or middle or anywhere else other than the only part where she says she's the culprit.

Do you honestly have nothing else other than ''duh, she says so at the end''?

>>11697825
Oh no, I can comprehend it, I just see a contradiction that you all agree to and don't doubt.
Just because I'm arguing a point doesn't mean I don't understand the other side I'm arguing about.

>>11697866
Basically his theory relies on red truths applying to all games at all times (even though this is explicitly not true as finally flat out said in the EP8 manga) except when it doesn't because it contradicts his theory (the red truth in 8 saying that if Shannon dies Kanon does too).

He then proceeds to completely ignore what the story is actually saying, and cook up a very large pile of BS involving fun things like fake death drugs, George hiding under beds, and changing clocks for no reason.

>>11697867
I can't tell if you are genuinely unable to read (would explain a lot actually) or if you're just selectively responding to the parts of each post that don't completely refute your pathetic "argument".

>>11697885
>>11697885
>you're an idiot who can't read so I'm not going to refute you
Yep, I see the errors of my ways.

I can read but it seems you can't.

>>11697867
I fucking love this. This is a prime example of why Rosatrice supporters are fucking idiots.

>A magical fantasy scene is clearly basis for an argument that makes no sense.

>Wait, the killer admitted being culpable for the crime? LOL don't you morans have any proof besides that?

>>11697895

>No you're stupid!
>No you're stupid!

goddamn just shut the fuck up

>>11697895
Your argument relies on you actually falling for the trick that the 1998 segments we see actually following the events of Episode 3.

It also relies on the assumption that Yasu is omnipotent and is able to see everything, thus she knew the Epitaph was solved and yet still killed even though such a thing.

It also relies on you being an idiot rosatrice supporter, so you might as well be arguing about Small Bombs.

Screw it I'm bringing out the big guns for this moron.

This Red Truth was shown in the EP8 manga about the Death of Nanjo in 3.

"Before the murder of Dr. Nanjo, Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, Rudolph, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, George, Gohda, Kumasawa, Genji, Shannon and Kanon are already dead!"

Explain this under Rosatrice plz.

>>11697901
Bravo, I showed evidence for something that clearly fits and was shown in the narrative in the argument that Eva received the ring and became the head of the family.

I'm asking for more proof because if Eva didn't shoot Battler in the face, no one would have had any arguments to point towards Eva being the killer.
Laughing at me that the only evidence anyone can present that Eva was ''paranoid'' was that she admitted that she is the culprit only shows that you have nothing other than that confession from Eva.

Say you were Battler, was there any evidence that he could have known or shown to point to Eva BEFORE she shot him in the face?
That's the point I'm trying to make but it seems you can only laugh and point rather than show anything.

>>11697880
>changing clocks for no reason
That part does actually make sense.

If you replace Lambda for Tohya and Bernkastel for the mystery fans, it becomes clear.

The mystery fans got a hold with Tohya and asked if they could participate in the events of ep 5. The condition being that they can place their own mary sue character with super power detective analysis.

The whole thing plays around as though some of the characters know the existence of the red truth even though they shouldn't.

George would have followed the script by Yasu/Rosa (whomever you think did it) and was manipulated by Tohya to work around the red truth for this single purpose.
Character wise, he just wanted to give a mystery for Erika to solve and create confusion.

>>11697911
Manga shows Shannon and Kanon in ep 5.
Explain that.

Manga means shit, we established that in this thread.

Meh, tape recorder.
We've already been here before.
If the game was created in the purposes to purposefully trick the mystery fans, you can get around it.

And what's the answer? That ''Yasu'' did it?
Heck, I can just say that George did it under the name ''The man from 19 years ago'' as his surname and bypass it if using Yasu works.

>>11697935
>The whole thing plays around as though some of the characters know the existence of the red truth even though they shouldn't.

Yes and that's exactly what that answer doesn't work. The actions are illogical and only work if the character is aware of the Red Truth and is working around it.

It's stupid and makes no sense and reveals Rosatrice for the joke it is

>Manga shows Shannon and Kanon in ep 5.

Unreliable perspective like the rest of 5 duh, I can't beleive you're still arguing this.

>Manga means shit, we established that in this thread.

It means a lot, the stuff in 8 is explicitly there to provide more clues and hints. You're denying that in a desperate attempt to ignore facts that don't fit your joke theory.

>If the game was created in the purposes to purposefully trick the mystery fans, you can get around it.

Your stupid theory about "Mystery fans being tricked" has no basis in the text. It's an unsupported piece of crap like the rest of Rosatrice.

>Heck, I can just say that George did it under the name ''The man from 19 years ago'' as his surname and bypass it if using Yasu works.

Show me the evidence that George has multiple personas like is hinted about for Shannon and Kanon.

>>11697935
>Bravo, I showed evidence for something that clearly fits and was shown in the narrative in the argument that Eva received the ring and became the head of the family.
No, pretty sure he was just making fun of the fact that you place so much credibility in a clearly questionable scene with fantasy and meta elements, yet scoff at a confession on the game board from a reliable POV.

>Say you were Battler, was there any evidence that he could have known or shown to point to Eva BEFORE she shot him in the face?
Did you even read the VN? One of the other anons already refuted you by mentioning the cigarette butt found on Kyrie's corpse, which was, in fact, the entire basis for Battler's suspicion.

>Manga shows Shannon and Kanon in ep 5.
>Explain that.
It's already been explained by a dozen different people in the thread. Learn to read or leave.

Thread completely derailed by one fanatical Rosatrice cultist who read Umineko last month.

>>11697901
Bravo, I showed evidence for something that clearly fits and was shown in the narrative in the argument that Eva received the ring and became the head of the family.

I'm asking for more proof because if Eva didn't shoot Battler in the face, no one would have had any arguments to point towards Eva being the killer.
Laughing at me that the only evidence anyone can present that Eva was ''paranoid'' was that she admitted that she is the culprit only shows that you have nothing other than that confession from Eva.

Say you were Battler, was there any evidence that he could have known or shown to point to Eva BEFORE she shot him in the face?
That's the point I'm trying to make but it seems you can only laugh and point rather than show anything.

>>11697880
>changing clocks for no reason
That part does actually make sense.

If you replace Lambda for Tohya and Bernkastel for the mystery fans, it becomes clear.

The mystery fans got a hold with Tohya and asked if they could participate in the events of ep 5. The condition being that they can place their own mary sue character with super power detective analysis.

The whole thing plays around as though some of the characters know the existence of the red truth even though they shouldn't.

George would have followed the script by Yasu/Rosa (whomever you think did it) and was manipulated by Tohya to work around the red truth for this single purpose.
Character wise, he just wanted to give a mystery for Erika to solve and create confusion.

---
Argh, I need sleep, I saw ep 5 rather than ep 3.
I hate deleting my post and correcting this.

>>11697867
>Ep 3 and ep 4 future events are fictional and meant to be related and continuation of the events on ep 3 rather than what happened post Prime.

I always thought that EP3 was intentionally trying to mislead the reader into thinking that. Death Bed Eva isn't the fictional Eva from EP3.

I see all the different stories about Ange as actual kakera, rather than fiction.

Remember how everyone died horrible deaths in Higurashi? That shit really happened, but we only care about the final kakera where they managed to unravel the conspiracy.

In Umineko, we are presented with alternate worlds where Ange does different things. The magic ending is the canon one, but Ange really did go to the island in other universes. The clues she found during her journey (letters for the accomplices, Sakutaro being mass produced, Okonogi planning to kill her, the fact that one of Kumasawa's sons is fat) are REAL information, not some writer's bullshit.

If you don't like the idea of Umineko dealing with real kakera, you can just take these stories as information directly from the author. For example, EP7 is a purely meta episode. It contains reliable information about a lot of things that nobody could have known. It's not fiction. In the same way, Ange's little adventure in EP4 didn't really happen, and it isn't fiction either. It's just Ryukishi telling you what would happen if Ange actually tried to go to the island.

Ryukishi could write a story about how Ange got raped by Kasumi's men. They would fuck her and find out that she is a virgin! That story wouldn't be canon, it would just be a way for Ryukishi to tell you that Ange is in fact a virgin without doing anything bad to her.

She never got raped, but the way she reacted in that story is how she would react IF she actually got raped. It's a fact.

I was on the Rosatrice boat after finishing Chiru, but that was my own mistake from watching the anime first. After playing through the VNs I tried hard to work out it being Rosa but it fell flast as early as game one.

>>11697935
>Manga means shit, we established that in this thread.

It was confirmed in red as early as game 4 tea party in the VN that everyone was dead when Nanjo was murdered except Eva and Battler which also have alibi in red.

>Heck, I can just say that George did it under the name ''The man from 19 years ago'' as his surname and bypass it if using Yasu works.

You clearly never understood the actual answer to begin with. The answer is not "Yasu" in game 4 its actually "Beatrice" who doesn't count as a person because she is a witch possessing Shannon/Kannon's bodies to commit the murder. Yes it is only an illusion but the game is set up to allow for this due to the foreshadowing and overwhelming amount of evidence pointing towards multiple people/one body theory.

>>11697960
You think any rosatrice supporter has read the VN at all in years? If ever? I bet most of them are anime only fags.

>>11697963
>Ryukishi could write a story about how Ange got raped by Kasumi's men. They would fuck her and find out that she is a virgin! That story wouldn't be canon, it would just be a way for Ryukishi to tell you that Ange is in fact a virgin without doing anything bad to her.
>She never got raped, but the way she reacted in that story is how she would react IF she actually got raped. It's a fact.

You know I agree with the general thrust of the metaphor but is this *really* the best example to explain it you could have thought of?

I'm tired of responding to this Rosatrice faggot.

Good luck to all the other sensible Anons in the thread.

>>11697964
>I was on the Rosatrice boat after finishing Chiru, but that was my own mistake from watching the anime first. After playing through the VNs I tried hard to work out it being Rosa but it fell flast as early as game one.

Hahahaha my point is proven.

>>11697951
>Yes and that's exactly what that answer doesn't work. The actions are illogical and only work if the character is aware of the Red Truth and is working around it.
>It's stupid and makes no sense and reveals Rosatrice for the joke it is
Oh please, that's barely the same bullshit answer Yasu has for continuing to commit the crimes in ep 5.

In ep 5, Erika and Battler solve the Epitaph but the murders continue.
The solution to this is that Lambda forces Yasu to continue the crime which is why ''the man from 19 years ago'' calls Natsuhi when Yasu never did so in the past games.

The theory actually has basis in the text.

At the end of ep 8, Bernkastel mentions that she was playing a role.
In one of the CG, Bernkastel is shown to be wearing one of the Goats, who clearly represent mystery fans.

Bernkastel is the collectiveness of the mystery fans made form.
But it's just her role and not who she is as she mentioned at the end of ep 8.

>Show me the evidence that George has multiple personas like is hinted about for Shannon and Kanon.
You don't need multiple personas to change your name.

>>11697952
>Did you even read the VN? One of the other anons already refuted you by mentioning the cigarette butt found on Kyrie's corpse, which was, in fact, the entire basis for Battler's suspicion.
No it wasn't, it was only to show that Kyrie was trying to find the culprit and though that Eva's husband might have something to do with it, which he did, but it just showed that Kyrie was suspicious.

>>11697986

Let's talk about how perfect Erika is

>Heck, I can just say that George did it under the name ''The man from 19 years ago'' as his surname and bypass it if using Yasu works.

It's not the same fucking shit. It doesn't matter if George has 100 personas inside his head, he still can't bypass the red because those personas are not acknowledged as actual characters by the characters themselves!

>>11697999
No, let's talk about Maria's smelly socks.

>>11697969
>>11697989

Yeah the anime is really fucking awful and its a miracle I liked Umineko enough to go through the VNs. The anime lacks almost all of the foreshadowing and data required to come up with the true culprit as well as the "why dunnit".

I was just as fucking clueless as Battler was when he was asked to remember his sin. There was just not enough to go on. When it ended abruptly and I read Chiru the sudden shift in narrative caused me doubt the answer provided and I thought R07 was trying to dupe me.

Seriously though anyone with half a brain can go back and play games 1-4 and its almost laughably easy to solve every single mystery and motive.

>>11697960
Still less annoying to deal with than the average Higurashi anime-only fan. Those are something else...

>>11698005

Disgusting, let's talk about Battler and how none of his artwork has ever shown how he was written to be
He was written as if he looked like he had a fair amount of muscle mass and is supposed to be the stupid jock of the story, I really don't understand why the adaptions keep pinning him as a skinny ladyboy

>>11697996
>In ep 5, Erika and Battler solve the Epitaph but the murders continue.

In 5 Beatrice explicitly is not claiming responsibility for the murders. Yasu isn't acting as Beatrice in 5, and as such does not follow Beatrice's rules.

>The solution to this is that Lambda forces Yasu to continue the crime which is why ''the man from 19 years ago'' calls Natsuhi when Yasu never did so in the past games.

She doesn't "force" Yasu to do anything. She *writes a story* that gives Yasu a different motivation. What you're saying is that the author wrote a character doing something that made no sense to them to get past some technicality they themselves had set up!

>>11698014

I braved through 8 fucking EPs of animu tropes in the Higurashi VN for an unsatisfying amount of new info.
I fucking hate animu tropes in VNs so fucking much goddamn.

>>11698013
>its almost laughably easy to solve every single mystery and motive.

It really is. Basically once you know the one core trick (Shannon and Kanon being "characters" played by a single actor) it's pretty easy to solve pretty much every mystery!

It's... it's almost like the author said that 6 and 7 would provide keys to unlock the mysteries of previous episodes.

>>11697963
How would Ange react anyway? What if they attempted anal?

>>11698027
She's just imagine the stakes having an orgy with her.

>>11698019
>She *writes a story* that gives Yasu a different motivation.

Exactly. As Ria said to Battler, they (Bern and Lamda) knew the rules of the game but wouldn't play it like Beato would. Yasu was never motivated by revenge, only love and heartbreak.

However it is perfectly logical to write a story where revenge against Natsuhi is their prime motive and they try to frame her for murder. Which is what Lamdadelta did even though such a game would sicken Beato.

Diehard mystery fans that support Rosatrice remind me of those Pokemon fans that actually breed for IVs. I don't really know why.

>>11698027

Especially if they're dicks are nice and meaty

>>11698043

Oh wow this is a really good analogy.
They are the most anti-fun people on the planet

>>11698043
>>11698050
Breeding for IVs is really easy now though.

Really that metaphor doesn't work, because hyper competitive Pokemon players are just optimizing what Pokemon is for (competitive multiplayer)

Rosatrice people, on the other hand, are just completely missing near everything about Umineko.

>>11698014
Still less annoying to deal with than anti-pedos.

>>11698019
Beatrice is actually defending her right as being the witch.
She is claiming responsibility as it is her job to be considered the culprit and to make everyone believe that ''a witch did it''.

If Natsuhi becomes the culprit, Battler would not believe in a witch and thus Beatrice would die.
This is why Beatrice seeks to defend Natsuhi.

Other than at the end of ep 3 when the game is already over, no one is able to put a direct claim to who could be the culprit except in ep 5. And this is when the title of Beatrice is put into question, only for the mystery to remain as Erika failed to show evidence to country for new facts and a new theory.

>She doesn't "force" Yasu to do anything. She *writes a story* that gives Yasu a different motivation.

Wrong, read ep 7, Yasu already had a motivation.
The Gameboards are only murder mysteries to what happened on the island.
The events on the island does not give Yasu motivation.

It is the accumulated guilt and other factors before the event on the island that creates the motivator. Beatrice's power requires it.

Beatrice's power can trap something in a loop but it cannot change its origins. If you cannot change its origins, you cannot change its motivation.

To say that Yasu does not claim to act like Beatrice even though her goal is to make Battler believe in a witch is nonsensical.
Yasu is always attached to her Beatrice persona.

Ep 7 makes it abundantly clear.

>>11698014
What do anime-only fans even talk about?
Killer lolis?

>>11698054

anti-pedos?

>>11698043
>>11698050
fuck off. I don't support Rosatrice but it has nothing at all to do with "fun" or Pokemon breeding.

Whether you find Yasu to be the "fun" answer or not is irrelevant to the truth of Umineko. It just so happens it is, but say if it were another truth altogether I wouldn't ignore it because I didn't find it "fun".

>>11698058
>To say that Yasu does not claim to act like Beatrice even though her goal is to make Battler believe in a witch is nonsensical.

Yes...? I agree with this...? There's a reason Lambda's game is said to be "without love" and "dishonorable" It strips away all of Yasu's motivations and makes her a plot device for a generic revenge plot.

>>11698061
Liking lolis is bad etc.

They are really buzzkills.

>>11698068

I'm only into bara so I was impartial to the pedo scenes. I found them obnoxious at most, but only because they're a cliche and unfunny anime trope.

>>11698062
The point wasn't about it being "fun", but about Rosatrice missing the entire thematic purpose of Umineko.

>>11698022
It's not about the info, silly. It's about the HEART.

If the anime manages to make you feel anything, it's because the story is just so damn good. It's still the most watered down adaptation I've ever seen and the entire cast got mischaracterized.

>>11697996
>You don't need multiple personas to change your name.
See >>11698000

Changing your name or having multiple personas doesn't mean jack shit. This isn't a thing in Umineko, Yasu doesn't work like this.

>>11698066
I agree, that one way to put it.

One way of seeing it is that because Lambda's game lacked love, Yasu was acting out of character and didn't follow her Beatrice persona which lead her not to follow the rules.
I personally think it's a mix bag since it doesn't explain with the events inside the gameboard to explain Yasu's change in motivation.

But the opposite to that answer is that, it's not that there isn't love and that the story turned into a cheap generic revenge but rather that the existence of Beatrice was destroyed.
Erika came along and the entire story let itself be destroyed for the characters to shit on Natsuhi rather than actually have the characters believe that Beatrice existed all along.

This is going to be fucking stupid but I know both sides of the coin is both Yasu and Rosatrice.
Although I argue about there being a contradiction, I greately appreciate and like Yasu as a character with her whole motivation and goal as well as her tragic backstory.

>>11698076
Meh, theories are made to be extrapolated, just because someone didn't ''get'' the story the same way you did or how it was meant to be understood, doesn't mean they aren't entitled to their own view and opinion on the matter.

>>11698056
It's still unnecessarily painful. I have OCD, but I'm not willing to waste my time when it's clear that the system is flawed. Even though it's easier now, it's full of so much bullshit. That's why I quit playing those games, I can't enjoy them anymore. And carrying around pokemon that are not optimal is out of the question, even in-game.

>>11698123
Still less autistic then KNM though.

>>11698075
What pedo scenes? What are you talking about?

>>11698145

Just scenes with Keiichi being unfunny and the Doctor wanting to stick his dick in satoko and that whole nude at the bridge scene was pretty pedo-y too

>>11698075
No offense, but bara is a body type and maybe a certain type of personality, pedolove is in a completely different league. Little girls are love, little girls are life.

>>11698163
We were talking about anti-pedos in real life, though.

>>11698005
Maria is a nice, educated kid. She would never wear the same socks for too long.

>>11698167

Sorry but Bara is love and Bara is life, little girls are pedo

Obviously, you've never gone to bed with a 200lbs body builder with just the right amount of chest hair. Unflexed muscles are indistinguishable from a firm pillow and are literally the comfiest things ever

>>11698181
Bara is sweaty and lewd, pedo is the purest form of love. I'm not even joking!

>>11698190

Bara aren't sweaty. They're just like any other person. They do tend to be warm because all the muscle requires a higher motabolism, but that doesn't make them sweaty.
Every form of love is pure, and you don't even have to be a pedophile to enjoy it

>>11698174

Remember that Maria is literally autistic, so who knows

>>11698167
DO YOU'RE KOKORO DO DOKI DOKI WHEN YOU WATCH THE KODOMO?

>>11698197
Loli is soft and nice, bara is hard and rude.

>>11698209

Most bara are just tsundere

>>11698201
>Maria is literally autistic
I don't think Maria would support Rosatrice.

>>11698208

>>11698132
He probably made the video while riding his bicycle left and right with his right hand.

>>11698132
He probably made the video while riding his bicycle left and right with his left hand.

Explain Umineko without ♦Shknontrice/Shannontrice/Shkanon ♦Rosatrice
♦Jessitrice
♦Gohdatrice
♦Without Eva as culprit, nor Natsuhi, Kyrie or Rudolf.
♦Don't even mention Yasu.
♦Can't have servants as culprits.
Protips:
>You won't. Not because you can't, but because you don't want to.

>>11699564

You forgot about Kinjo. The theory that Nanjo is the culprit

Is there a full transcript of KnownNoMore's videos? I found one but it seems incomplete and I really don't want to listen to 9 hours of rambling about a theory that may not even have legit weight to it

>>11700352
I think that transcript is the only one. But really, you don't need much more to see how ludicrous the theory is. His explanation of Rosa's motivation alone is not only insane (She actually thinks the murders are a magical ritual to bring Beatrice back to life) but it violates a Red Truth.

"Beato wanted you to solve it, so she made this game...the riddles of this tale...solvable."

Beatrice did the elaborate murders to create a mystery for Battler to solve.

>>11697707
>>11697423
>>11697673

I've agreed with both of you on most of what you've said through this thread, but you are definitely wrong about this. All of EP7 hinges on the idea that you have to consider Yasu and Beatrice at least partially seperate. The core question of "who killed Beatrice" doesn't even make sense if you don't.

Beatrice is a character. Yasu is her actor. Beatrice is an act that Yasu puts up and identifies with because it makes her feel better about herself, but that doesn't mean something distinct doesn't exist behind the facade when she lets the act drop.

>>11701670
Here is Will and Lion talking directly about it in EP7. Who killed Beatrice? Her actor, Yasu. The actor and the character are different people.

>>11701673

When the act of Beatrice drops, often because of a situation or environment that takes Yasu off guard, the self-aware Yasu herself still appears, like here.

>>11701673

When the act of Beatrice drops, often because of a situation or environment that takes Yasu off guard, the self-aware Yasu herself still appears, like here.