/jp/ - Otaku Culture

i'm trying to learn on my own but that is not going very well, i think i'll have to start looking for classes soon

I'm also trying to learn on my own, though when I move to a city this fall I will be looking for a tutor or classes.

>>11273023
I have the sentance structure learned, im completely used to the pronounciations of words. Im just not good at long sentances, remembering anything, and kanji. I really dont want a tutor since im not very comfortable around teachers

>>11273016
I did on my own, all it takes is motivation and following a good system so you dont get burned out. A tutor can't be with you all day every day and in order to do it in a reasonable amount of time you're basically always going to be doing something in japanese.

I took a beginner class last year and have been off and on learning it ever since, I wish I would've just learned the basics first and then gone into an intermediate class.

Mostly working on vocab core pack now with anki after practically wasting half a year on heisig (although its somewhat helpful when seeing a new font and realizing what the radicals usually would look like)

>>11273082
What is a good system to follow?

>>11273089
It largely depends on you and how you learn. Unfortunately there's no one size fit all answer. AJATT worked well for me, others like to do Tae Kim and Core 6K because it's a lot more structured. There are countless others out there as well, in the end do whichever one you enjoy.

Following Namasensei videos, I know its not the pool of wisdom , beacon of knowledge....
But it helps to get started.

I'm studying on my own, because I live in a shithole without any decent japanese teachers, so I have to rely on my determination and internet

Learned on my own. RTK -> Tae Kim -> Core 6K -> etc

>>11274409
Oh, and I used JapanesePod101 as well.

>>11274397
>Namasensei

Don't use this stupid shit. If you haven't wasted your time going through his kana videos yet just use Heisig's book on kana and you can learn them in a few hours.

>>11274422
All right, will look for it, thanks for the tip.

>>11274422
why?
i finished the hiragana playlist and now i was going to start with the kana ones..

>>11275104
Do what you want, but Heisig's book will teach all hiragana and katakana to you in 6 hours total, you'll remember them, and you don't have to write them over and over. That's better than watching some drunk fuck's stupid videos. Also this may not be a big deal for kana, but Namasensei does not give the correct stroke order on all of them, so he's teaching you wrong.

>>11275147
yes you are correct about the stroke order thing, but i did learned things from him, also i just downloaded heisig's hiragana and katakana pdf, thanks

>>11275147
>6 hours total
Should be: 6 hours total, each.
sure you could blitz it but if you want the stroke order to stay I would still recommend writing it out a few times (eg. at least one line on a page full)
I used his book and then turned to cramming via Anki and in a total of 12 hours I'm over 95% accurate in both reading and writing with under 5seconds per kana.

I picked up the Micheal Thomas method, it's pretty effective to casually learn but it only deals with spoken/written... I'm literally writing by hiragana conversion. It's really put me back on the kanji front and meant I havent learned any katakana yet (but as mentioned that's a weekend breeze). Not moving on to genki 1 and looking at maybe doing a language exchange.

For reference I started a month ago and been putting in around an hour each day and wrote this using only things I can read (my vocab is wider but was meant to be functional not demonstrative):
一かげつ。　わたしはにほんごのがくせいです。　にほんごではなしてみますかんたんです。にほんごでよんでみますへたじゃありません。　わたしはかきますがへたですがかいてみます。　せんしゅうわたしはにほんごでかきませんがきょうはひらがなでにほんごおかきます。
”み”と”みゅ”はすきとかわいです。　”や”かいてみますがへたです、かたかなみます。
だれもににほんごではなしまして、がにほんごではなしてみたいです！
日本とにほんごはすきです。

>>11275368
When I went through the book I learned them in 3 hours each like it said on the cover. You of course have to write them afew times, and review (Anki), but there is no "get a notebook and write it 50 to 100 times" which is what I meant. I wrote about a line of them like you suggest.

I learned a LOT more in one year studying by myself than in the year I took a class. The important part is how disciplined and motivated you are.

>>11275368
please use kanji. that post is horrible to read thank.

thank you in advance.

>>11275429
evidently my english skills are worse than your jap skills. i am sorry /jp/.

>>11275368
>日本
>と
>にほんご

10/10 finish. I love the jump from kanji back to hiragana

>>11275406
My bad, yeah it was 3 hours each... I was a bit over due to distractions, it does say 3 hours intense study.... I have been frying my brain with intense learning and going through shit this month so memory is a bit hazy on details... that would make my total 9 hours (3 core + 3 each for reading and writing)

>>11275413
Same experience

>>11275429
As mentioned: not been going long and the method I used has stunted my kanji progress for now (hence only 3 used). Will work on it soon.
If you are a native speaker could I ask: Is 日本ご usable in place of　日本語 if you can't read/write the "語" ?

ここで日本語を練習していい？

>>11275444
can you really not read/write 語？
It's 4 lines above a box next to a number 5 on another box
you should learn about radicals, they are amazing

>>11273016
If I can do it, anybody can.

With Anki I did: kana -> RTK -> sentences

I also spent (and still do) at least a few hours every day doing stuff in Japanese: reading, music, browsing the internet, eroge etc. I think that's the key to success. And eroge is amazing.

>>11275457
しらね

i am trying and i think its going quite well

>>11275487
ならすみません。シコシコタイムに戻ってきます。

>>11275463
I just haven't started yet I only wrote what I did using things I felt confident I could read and write. The question was also more genrally "If I know the kanji for part but not for the extension/conjugation?"

>>11275443
As said, I'm not 100% on the kanji for language... I only really know 日本 from accidentally hitting space in the IME so much...

Also picked up a little more punctuation since I wrote it last night, should make it much easier to read.

All of this is fallout from the Michael Thomas covering just spoken; Though I do feel it has been quite good for the perposes of picking up sentence structure and keeping interest.

>>11275493
戻って来るなよ、アスペやろう

>>11275493
無理すんなよ

>>11275466
>I also spent (and still do) at least a few hours every day doing stuff in Japanese: reading, music, browsing the internet, eroge etc. I think that's the key to success. And eroge is amazing.

Yeah, you should try to incorporate it in your daily life as much as you can. Read the news in Japanese instead of your native language, change your OS and other software languages to Japanese, etc.

>>11275498
自閉症なんてないし

I wonder if I'll ever be able to hard sci-fi stuff like Banner of the Stars. I remember "reading" a page and I almost cried.

>>11275518
I know someone who is having this sort of problem with translating 紫色のクオリア

>>11275368
this is who you get japanese advice from when posting on /jp/

>>11275542
Hey, I admit I'm bad. Just wanted to point out that while some people swear by the michael thomas stuff it leave you with this problem: You still look like an idiot when writing.

>>11275444

Nice trips.

I think you can write a sentence better than I can and for a month that's really good. However, when you learn new vocab you really should learn the kanji rather than just the kana.

>>11275611
Hah, didn't even notice the trips.
Thank you. I will be picking up kanji soon, just as mentioned I've been using a slightly dodgy method.
Out of interest has anyone had much luck with: http://www.mylanguageexchange.com/

>>11273016
>I hear its abosulte essential you have a tutor or take classes
>or take classes
>classes
Whoever the fuck told you that is a fucktard and you should tell him to castrate himself and protect the human race from his genes.
You'll never learn japanese from a class, nor any other language, because to learn any language is essential to be constantly in contact with the culture. A language isn't something that's contained in a textbook, it is something you learn by speaking and reading. Textbooks and classes only can help you so much with taking that first step, but you'll never be fluent with that alons.

eroge everyday

>>11275772
Don't just go for immersion though, you need the basic understandings that you can get from books/tutors (fuck classes). Without having a basic understanding first, immersion is just noise and scribbles.

Self teaching here and was wondering it anyone knew where to get the aswers for 1st edition genki?
Not seeing them in either workbook or textbook....
Also is there a suggested learning order anywhere? There doesn't appear to be any recommendations on when to swap between workbook and textbook?

>>11275634
Do yourself a favor and use Lang-8. The site is run in Japan so a fucking ton of them use it.

>>11279423
Lang-8 seems to focus heavily on written form? Was already aware of it and was considering it but what about building listening?

>>11279441
Many of the lang-8 users want to skype. Just throw that in your profile and look for it in others' profiles.

I feel like I simply can't learn how to read long sentences, and my vocab is very limited. People told me here to learn vocab with those decks, but that method is boring as hell. But I really don't like searching for every kanji I find when reading eroge...

>>11279465
Then learn kanji separately like most people do.

>>11279465
>I really don't like searching for every kanji
should have done rtk1-3 for ~3000 kanji plus readings. then you can add whatever other extra kanji you will run into depending on how pretentious the writer is.

>>11279465
Looks like you're close to realizing that the people who always give the advice to not learn kanji on their own have been trolls this entire time, like everyone else has said.

>>11280112
How do rtk people learn readings?
I get the impression that rtk2 is mostly ignored aside from the "pure group" parts.
Rote? That movie method thing? Would taking reading mnemonics from KD work?

>>11280125
In RTK2 and the readings section of RTK3 there is rote involved. Signal primitives get you a long ways, though.

>>11279465
Try wanikani maybe? It's kinda fun and it does a good job at keeping me motivated

>>11280217
how many kanji does that cover?

I use these.

~1300+ kanji in 1.5 months.

>I hear its abosulte essential you have a tutor or take classes
Complete bullshit. People who say this are normalfags who can't get motivated for anything unless they have someone else to set out all the routines for them.

There are 3 main benefits classes have over self-study:
1. Someone else to set up a schedule for you. The previously mentioned normalfags need this, but it's perfectly possible to make your own schedule. It's easy to find help online on how to manage your time when studying Japanese.
2. Someone to practice speaking the language with. Only essential if you want to learn to speak or write. And if you do, language exchange sites are a million times better than classes, since you get to practice natural conversation with native speakers, instead of scripted conversation with fellow students who are just as clueless as you.
3. Someone to ask for help when you're stuck. Not really necessary, just helps you overcome some hurdles quicker. Your language exchange can also help you out here.

Also remember that when taking a class, you're supposed to follow the pace of the rest of your class, which you can expect to be really, really slow, since not everyone can be bothered to put in a decent amount of study time inbetween classes, which means you probably won't even get to conversational level following this pace. And lastly, there are many sub-par teachers who will teach you things that are downright wrong for the sake of simplicity.

>>11280266
1750 kanji and 5000 vocab words

I'm following namasensei. Just started really but I feel like I'm making good progress, know 20 of the hiragana after 3 days and can write a couple of simple words in Japanese now

>>11282237
Look up:
Remembering the kana. James W. Heisig

(Hell google will even recommend getting it on tpb if you use a few restrictions on your search...)
Seriously, there's a reason people recommend it a lot: You could squeeze in all the stroke diagrams for hiragana in 2 days, with a little practice those will be fully sunk in for both reading and writing within 4 days of starting...
You may want to carry on with what you're using for now but you should definitely give them a go for when you do the katakana.
(I swear by Anki for quick and easy flashcards to get them properly ingrained)

>>11280280
>しょうがくせい a scholarship student

fucking homonyms

I took some classes and did well in them, but my at-home routine got messed up when my hard drive with all my stuff crashed so I kind of have to start from scratch

>>11282280
奨学生のお小遣いは少額制

is there a book like this for moonspeak? all 4 languages I've tried to learn had books with short stories about stupid children.

Everything is easier to do on your own. College courses are a jewish invention.

It's impossible to learn Japanese on your own. It's best to take classes and not study separately study kanji.

>>11282237
Namasensei teaches the wrong stroke order. Use a resource from someone that isn't an idiot.

>>11282356
Put some effort into your trolling next time.

>>11282316
>Latin
Mah nigga

no motivation to learn
fuck me

I recently got Genki I and II. How good are those? I currently know all the kana and a few kanji. I tried Rosetta Stone a few years back but I never really got into it. My main problem currently is grammar and kanji. I've done anki and Kanji Damage. Is RTK really good?

>>11288513
Rosetta Stone a shit. Genki are good. No idea about RTK

How do you guys feel about this website for learning kanji?

http://kanjidamage.com/introduction

It looks good, but I'd like to know if there's a better resource for learning kanji.

>>11288513
RTK is extremely helpful if you have the motivation to spend a month of hard work or 2+ of less work. You'll be able to read in a loose sense, and there will be zero kanji barrier because it'll take you ten seconds to pick up new kanjii. Plus at least for me having the whole i already learned 2k moon runes i cant stop now helped pull me through low motivation points.

If you do decide to do RTK check out kanji.koohii.com they have a lot of stories to use as guide though I'd recommend using anki over their built in SRS.

>>11288588
It's nice for gaining confidence, but if you want to see results inmediately, you are better off using RTK order. You won't see the most useful kanji until later with KD order.

>>11288756

Alright, thanks.

do people who claim they learned all the runes with rtk actually know them or are they mentally looking up the words every time they see them?

>>11288513
Genki can be a little dry if you're not used to learning languages from books but otherwise fine, work order is: text book chapter>exersize book chapter>next chapter
Isn't always clear, my only complaint was the lack of answers for the exersize book... you can buy an answer book separate though.

It assumes you only know the kana (hell it only assumes you know hiragana to begin with). It goes from there, I've not progressed much with it having come from another set but it seems like it wants you to do some significant work outside the lessons to actually take in the info and learn what is demonstrated...

WIll have to look up rtk.
>>11288904
If it's fast is there that much difference?

>>11288912
Quick check shows it's another Heisig book... I used his kana books but his quirks and "imaginative memory" didn't really help me learn...
Is RTK the same or does it break things down better?
For reference the kana books only got me about 85% accurate in the time it claimed, distinctions weren't clear in some areas and I was mostly finding alternate ways of memorising. I had to cram/re-use the forms quite a lot before they really sank in, then they just set without any real attatchment for most.

>>11288904
Initially yes you think up the word, but eventually you go straight to concept. RTK's main advantage is that it decreases your dependency on a dictionary by letting you figure out a decent amount of words from their constructing concepts. For example I started off reading blackjack and they were always using 病院 sickness+institution wait could that be hospital?

>>11288927
I'm not sure how he did kana, but imaginative memory is a huge and necessary part for RTK, it's for linking together concepts represented by primitives that make up the kanji. For example 明=bright the SUN(日) and the MOON(月) are *bright* lights in the sky.

Since kana don't really have primitives I'd say it's completely different however. Doesn't seem logical to do kana any way but brute force, there's only 46 symbols after all and then the dakuten/combos

Is there a CTRL+F-able form of DoBJG anywhere to reference grammar points? CTRL+F isn't picking up anything on the PDF with either adobe reader or foxit.

>>11292313
You could try to brute force your own one with an OCR but it would probably be quite awkward if you wanted to scan in the kanji too...

Captcha: clubbing gaggers
(they deserve it)

>>11282327
Unfortunately, jobs can't know how good you know something, so they only look at what school you went to.

>>11292313
You know there's an index right?

>>11293885
>jobs
LOL

What ever happed to the threads with the pastebins of all the good refrences and shit? It used to have useful smartphone apps, and links to helpful websites, and the posters would put up words in kanji for people to learn

>>11280280
Encourage prostate stimulate?
What?

>>11293885
it's called a portfolio, and it's worth more than a college degree to most employers. Can't tell you the number of retards i've had from ivy league schools that i've had to shitcan. My #2 didn't even graduate highschool, a creepier more awkward better at computers version of me.

>>11279441
For listening just shadow as much as you can. Once you get that down you won't notice any difference between text and audio comprehension.

>>11294762
But the Ivy league is a sports league, that's all.

I can read basic sentences like in Tae Kim but when I pick up a manga to translate it reads like gibberish, any tips on translating for practice?

>>11294837
I wouldn't translate at all if I were you. I think it's best to keep Japanese and English as far away from each other as possible when learning.

>>11294837
if you want to get better at reading, then read as much as possible, whilst also doing whatever more structured work you've chosen. you're not suddenly going to be able to read perfectly by just learning examples from a book, you have to practice, no matter how difficult it seems at first.

>>11294026
In the book? Sure. Nothing I can CTRL+F though.

>>11294983
This is probably best.

I'm teaching myself, and I'm scared to death of sounding like a foreigner forever

>>11299419
You will always sound like a foreigner if you have a non-Asian face. It doesn't matter if your pronunciation is perfect, your grasp of idiomatic expressions flawless, and your grammar pristine.

Why does TaeKim translate みんなに変だと言われます。 as "I am told by everybody that [I'm] strange."?

Isn't that と the conditional と because it's following だ?

>>11301283
>みんなに
By everyone
>変だと
"you're strange!"
>言われます
I'm told.

That と is the quoting/nominalizing と. Not the conditional or the "and" one.

>>11301304
Naru(to)hodo. Thanks.

Because of "We learned how to use 「という」 to describe what something is known or referred to as. However, we can take this idea even further by attaching two relative clauses. At this point, 「いう」 is so abstract that it doesn't even really have a meaning. When a relative clause is encapsulated with 「と」, you must have a verb to go along with it and 「いう」 is simply being used as a generic verb to enable us to talk about any relative clause." I separated the と言う in my head from how it's often used without meaning "to say", so my brain parsed it as だと + 言う for whatever reason.

who cares, do it or don't.

if you don't or won't fuck off.

>>11301339
or if you can't even.

That feel when you know the kunyomi for hundreds of words you don't know the onyomi readings for, and are raped the first time you encounter a kanji wall.

Also that obligatory Japanese learning blog feel etc.

>I hear its abosulte essential you have a tutor or take classes

The opposite is true.

Well, a personal tutor might work, but all classes do is fuck people up. Everything is done in the most backwards over-complicated way, and the pace is thus incredibly slow.

My goal is to learn Japanese, Russian, Italian, German fluently and speak decent Mandarin in the next four years.

How do I get started into learning Japanese?

>>11301812
Either use your brain or use /a/ pastebin spam.
Current pastebin
>>>/a/91327505

>>11301851
Thanks. Did you also learn using pastebin?

>>11273016
I am learning on my own. It is going well. The only problem is staying dedicated which can be hard sometimes but I am going strong

>>11301866
How are you doing this?

>>11301861
No, I grabbed michel thomas method because of a few people i know IRL recommended. Great for learning to speak but it's set me back in written grammar, now slogging through genki and using lang-8 for variety and interest.

>>11301889
Would you say you've already learned the language or you're still on it? For how long have you been studying?

>>11301919
Studied for just over a month, definitely still learning. I know almost no kanji and find my vocabulary limiting what I can express quite often. I can communicate though and have just had a jokey discussion about making typos and silly small mistakes with a native speaker.

From other languages I've learned and countries I've lived in: I could get by if I lived there but official documents would be hell and I'd be quite antosocial at this level.
If I keep this pace: By this time next year I could probably be almost completely fluent (maybe some issues with the male/female language).

Already have RTK and an integrated guide to intermediate japanese as planned reading and I'm alreayd making some small talk with natives on lang-8 (probably will have the confidence to start skyping properly around christmas)

>>11301937
What are "RTK" and "lang-8"?

>>11302011
RTK is Heisig's Remembering the Kanji.
Lang-8 is a language exchange social networking site.

>>11302019
Is reading RTK a good beginnig? Are there exercises in it? Thanks for replying, dude.

>>11302019
RTK could also refer to his "remembering the kana" but yeah most people mean the kanji (Already used his kana book, it'd recommend that too alongside anki)

I'm going to assume:
>>11301812
>>11301875
>>11301919
>>11302011
Are all same person... Use some google.

>>11302046
>RTK could also refer to his "remembering the kana" but yeah most people mean the kanji (Already used his kana book, it'd recommend that too alongside anki)

Wait, there's a book for that? Why?
Is it 5 pages long?

>>11302073
Stroke order and proper formation. Also includes the root kanji (but not it's definition).
It breaks them down into 6 lessons each so that it's more approachable.

>>11302073
>Is it 5 pages long?
65-ish for each as it still spends a whole page on each kana.
It's main use is just to break it down and teach how to write them though.
I know some people laugh at the idea of writing but I found it really helped with reading them.

>>11301919

There is no event that marks the end of learning something. You just know more, and more of it, but never everything.

The only real sense of progress than can be measured is retroactive. Seeing things you couldn't read, or understand, in the past, but now can. You don't know the point at which you could understand these things, but now you can.

Even fluency is only a vague concept. You don't "become fluent" then stop learning. You're still learning your native language, even. When you were a child, you would watch things, possibly not knowing half the words, but still understanding the media to a great extent. Even as an adult, you'll find out a new word, then you'll keep hearing it everywhere - that's because you don't take notice of the words you don't understand (and don't need to know), just as you've always done.

To learn a language is a lifelong commitment. Even your native tongue can become unusable, if it is not exercised. Are you willing to keep another language for life?

>>11302107
Yes I am. How do I get started in Japanese? English is not my first language and I'm almost finishing my Spanish classes.

>>11302119
＞English is not my first language
This may make it more awkward as most courses people know and recommend are in english.

What is your native language then?

- Learn kana (this is so easy, use remembering the kana if you have too).
- Install anki
- Grab the shared decks 'Tae Kims Guide To Japanese Grammar' and 'Core 2k/6k Optimised Japanese Vocabulary'
- Install rikaichan and set up real-time anki import

At this point by reading tae kims grammar guide and doing your daily anki reps you'll build up good knowledge, you can also either browse japanese sites or install ITH and use it on a visual novel and start grabbing words for a anki deck of your own that way.

>b.b.b.b.but what about kanji?
I learnt it via vocab, learning individual kanji instead of words just didnt appeal to me.

>>11302123
Nevermind about that. I'm really into the idea. Again, how should I start?

>>11302187

There no right way to start.

I started by researching the language. I read about it until it became clear what I had to learn.

>>11302140
This is a troll, and someone inexperienced with the language to the point that he doesn't realize he's in deep shit yet.

Do your kanjis.

>>11302207

Actually, on second thought, there is a right way to start. To start.

>The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now.

Springs to mind. One of the few things I did right was to start learning Japanese from the moment I took interest in their media - I now have a tree. There is no way to "do it wrong" as such, just do something. Anything. Even if you make a mistake, it will be fixable.

>>11302245

I learnt kanji with vocabulary, as he says. I tried multiple times with readings and meanings, but it never worked for me. I could never use it to any extent. When I started adding vocabulary as kanji to an SRS deck, I could use it, and it wasn't forgotten, as they were words I needed.

There are different methods. Not everyone is going to benefit from grinding it out like an alphabet.

>>11302269
I'd argue that doing it a way you hate is the wrong way but yes.
If you hate it you'll probably give up after a little while so just find a way you like and don't be afraid to change.
Once you've dealt with that: The sooner you start the better.

>I learnt kanji with vocabulary, as he says.
Not started much kanji yet but this is how most of my words stick.
Genki wanted me to remember the word for "Sweat shirt"... I can't remember that crap, not something I use.
Someone pointed out にがて once to me in the context of 「私は日本語がにがてです。」　（My Japanese is weak) and I remembered it the second time I saw it because it was useful to me.

Looking up radicals and learning how stroke order works but most of the vocabulary you learn should come from using it.
Better to have to look up a new kanji you'll use every day than to spend a week learning kanji you won't use and still have to look up a kanji you dont know most days.

>>11302187
Reread this thread, if you're still asking that question afterwards you're either a poor troll or too stupid to self teach.

>>11302353

>I'd argue that doing it a way you hate is the wrong way

Of course. I'd wager the majority fail because they're bombarded from all directions by those telling they need to be doing it in a certain way, and if they didn't learn kana in 3 hours and don't add 50 cards a day they're utterly worthless.

I luckily didn't have a point of reference when I was learning. 4chan was mostly actively hostile to learning toward learning Japanese until only a few years ago. While it took me much longer to get to where I am than it does for others, I got here none-the-less and didn't particularly hate any of it.

>>11302353
It's just that everyone has indicated so much different ways that I'm now more insecure. Would you recommend starting with RKT or /a/ pastebin spam? Should I learn kanji, hiragana or katakna first?

>>11302508
Which alphabet to learn first is an easy one. It doesn't get much attention as most people see it as obvious.

First off, if you use a course book: Open it up and see what it uses first, start with that.

Most courses use hiragana as it's the "main" kana.
Katakana is mostly used for load words/imported words and used in signs, it's useful if you want to go to Japan soon and don't want to learn hiragana too. Most people learn this after hiragana if they intend on learning the language more fully though.

Kanji are different... you will never learn all of them, just learn what you're comfortable with learning and pick them up as you need them.


As for which course to start with: Check them all and see which one you like best. The go-to one for a lot of people is "Genki" but if you do some research you may find something that works better for you.

>>11302588
If you want to just learn how to read hiragana and translate it in your head without going through the trouble of completely learning to SPEAK the language, what would be the best way?

Im good at remembering kanji because they are basically obscure pictographs and i can equate then to the translated meaning, but with hiragana you have specifically japanese things..

Is there a method that words similar to kanji and groups the hiragana together and you just learn the compiled translated word?
Im sorry if what i said doesnt make sense. My main goal is just to be able to read, i dont care about speaking/writting

>>11302878
Just learn to speak it, it'll set you back 15 hours tops (and that's if you havent done any of the language before).

Kana directly translates into sounds anyway. Unlike using the pictograph way for kanji you will be learning to read/write much like any western language. It just has the added difficulty of lacking spaces. If you can speak/know the sounds for kanji it's a lot easier though.

For the effort involved, learning to speak the language helps a lot and is an added bonus.

>>11302269
>>11302387

I never said it was impossible (learning vocab without prior kanji knowledge). I just said it's considerably less efficient (like churning your own butter instead of letting machines do it), and there is scientific evidence to support it at http://www.supermemo.com/articles/20rules.htm

I doubt you have more than 3K words memorized, and if you have more than that it took considerably much much much more effort from you without you realizing it. There's just no way to believe someone with no kanji knowledge can learn many compounds words because the eye of the person who hasn't studied kanji can not reliably tell kanji apart beyond the most simple ones.

You also have no idea how to write them without RTK which is a whole 'nother different matter. In conclusion, just because something is possible, doesn't mean you should confuse beginners by giving them bad advice.

My head hurts when I read long sentences... Even if I know the grammar behind it ;_;

>>11273016
It is possible, and you may learn even faster than with the average class...I've seen classes that take one semester for the students to learn hiragana, and they don't even reach the needed vocabulary for N5...studying by yourself, with really hard dedication, you could reach JLPT N3 in the same time, no kidding. At least when it comes to writing, reading and listening. For speaking, I guess the teacher is really needed.

>>11303948
A teacher is never needed for speaking. Immersion in native media is.

>>11303414
How does one learn how to speak an entire language in 15 hours? Sounds impossible.

Or do you mean just learn the japanese pronounciation of the hiragana should take 15 hours? What method is best for this?

I know its ass backward but im doing so well remembering kanji ut when it comes to hiragana and kata i have a lot of trouble

>>11304929
Have you been handwriting kana? When I have kana or kanji that I keep mistaking for others, I write them repeatedly. It's really helped me.

You might want to take a look at Heisig's Remembering the Kana. I never used it myself, but if kana is giving you serious trouble then it's worth a try.

A useful little game for practicing kana:
http://learnjapanesepod.com/kana-invaders/

>>11303948
>>11304154
A teacher is needed for both reading and writing on a natural level. Simply writing or speaking with correct grammar is one thing, but it's impossible to know for sure whether something you've written is natural by yourself. Or, it's technically possible, but far, far more difficult if you don't have a Japanese or otherwise qualified friend, tutor, or instructor.

Of course, like the second poster said, immersion is the best thing.

tl;dr You should all give up. Please do, I'm sure there are much better uses for your time. Learn to draw or something.

>>11305081
> reading and writing on a natural level
You mean speaking and writing right?

Anyway, obviously you aren't going to be able to write and speak well unless you practice them, and if you have no feedback whatsoever then you will have a hard time being fluent. Although an actuall class wouldn't help all that much, because classes are so low level that you actually can beat them easily without a teacher.

This is a really helpful thread. Thanks jaypee!qq

>>11305081
>A teacher is needed for both reading and writing on a natural level.

No. Immersion in a native-like environment produces natural reading and writing. Khatzmoto speaks better than most natives.

>>11305230
>Khatzmoto thinks he speaks better than most natives.
FTFY

>>11273016
>or take classes
do this, you won't regret this. delete your thread.

>>11305234
He writes like railsoft or some shit, so pretty hardcore.

I basically just learned to read and write on my own. It really wasn't that too hard.

>>11305081
I can't agree with you. Learning to draw is also a huge waste of time.

>>11305272
Writing well is much harder than writing in a complicated way.

Although I haven't seen it so I can't really judge. But I I can guess that most of the people who are impressed things like writing 此処 and 貴方 in kanji.

Non-native English speaker here and I learned English all alone. I'm not sure how I learned it but I think it went something like this:

Basic english (ABC and stuff, but I never learned past/present/future or whatever that is. Just came naturally)
Once you have the basics and can read letters, try reading words. In this point GBA games can help, mainly games with lots of text like pokemon. Basically having a graphical representation of the word can be helpful. Maybe manga can help too or anime with Japanese subs if you can find it.
Then you go to Japanese sites Decent forums (aka the English equivalent of going to forums with proper punctuation and capital words etc) should be the best source.
After that you're a master and can raid 2ch all by yourself.
Do that and you'll have a sharp learning curve. It does take time though but you'll get it.

At least that's what I think happened with me.

>>11305522
What's your native language?

>>11305531
Hebrew.

>>11305545

>>11305550
>>>/pol/

>>11305574
>>>/JIDF/

>>11305583
muh 6 six trillion

>>11305583

>>11305591
Jesus christ, that's gotta be autismal overload

Don't de-rail.

>>11305595
I'll derail your anus with my three inch cock!

Fuck you janitor, this isn't even the right board for this thread.

>>11304929
Yeah I meant learning how to pronounce and the speech patterns. Occasionally you'll hit a word you dont know and just mentally pronouncing the sentence can really help.

>>11305057
Remembering the Kana is very good, if you brute force the kana it will often take you 20+ hours or study on each to hit 95% accuracy.
Running through remembering the Kana takes 6 hours intense study (maybe 10 if you're lazy), throw in another 5 in Anki and you can both read and write almost all of them quickly. I'm down to 3 second recognition times and writing speed is the only limiter on getting them down. I have maybe 5 kana that give me minor issues (including both sets of Kanas and the modifiers).

>>11305081
Not quite true, classes are awful as you only progress at the rate of the slowest person... Also Japanese tutors are notorious for only teaching the female dialects, you're better off learning a random mix if you're a guy...
Just borrow someone you know to help check it over or use lang-8 as mentioned.

That should get you close enough to only need minor corrections when you actually go to Japan.
Actually comming across as a native speaker is something that will take the rest of your life, what's talked about here is just the best way to get "close enough" to not sound like an idiot.

>>11305752
> if you brute force the kana it will often take you 20+ hours or study on each to hit 95% accuracy.
That's fucking retarded. Why do you think you know how long it takes if you didn't use that method?

>>11308111
>Assuming they know nobody else who learned.

>>11308132
A pretty good assumption, given that it sounds like he just made up a number.

>>11308141
Fair call.
Does sound plausible for some though though... I've met some pretty retarded people trying to learn Japanese.

I'm learning on my own.

>>11302878

Kana is really REALLY easy. You shouldn't have any problems with it at all.

>>11280217
I'm starting WaniKani for my kanji lessons.

Here goes!

>>11273016
i did.

immersion is the only way, jrpgs are good for new words and repetition. you should prepare questions and bring them to a tutor once in a while.

>>11313584
also make sure that tutor is japanese because most tutors are fucking idiots who passed jlpt3 with rote learning and otherwise don't know shit

>>11313594
Also bears mentioning that if you can get a native speaker the same gender as you it helps. Japanese has differences in language based on gender that people find wierd when used by the other gender.
Good luck finding a male teacher if you do though. They're very rare.

>>11314411
I speak like a girl when I talk to my cousins in Japan.

They kind of like it for some reason, ore kind of frightens them.

I learned english, russian and italian on my own!
Russian, i was taught by my parents.
Italians, i live in italy so i picked it up like that, reading books helped.
English, i found myself interested in movies and through subtitles/sound learned the tongue, also i listened to the teacher very carefully.
All of this before 16!

>>11305752
>classes are awful as you only progress at the rate of the slowest person..
What kind of classes have you've been taking? Cheap community college classes?

This seems like an okay place to ask.

I've been casually trying to learn Japanese over summer. It took me about 4 weeks to learn all the Hiragana, averaging around 15 minutes per day. For the past month or so I've been looking at sentence structure and general grammar, so I have a pretty good idea about that now as well.

What I'm unsure of is what I'm going to do next. Kanji? Katakana? Something else? I'd appreciate your help!

>>11322043
1) Hiragana
2) Katakana

3)
then, at the same time:
Kanji + Grammar + Vocab (RTK,KD, Genki, tae kim, core2k ..&al)
When getting comfortable (a few hundred kanjis in and the basic grammar nailed down)

4) Begin reading/Watching anime taking notes/playing games/intense media study. Adding vocab to your reps.

5) After finishing all 2000 kanjis and being at ease vocab-wise:
Harder media add more shit to your vocab.
Find penpal

do 5) until fluent.

>>11322499
As an addon to 4/5, a really useful tool is to copy what they're saying as best as you can for a couple minutes every now and then.(getting in character can be fun!) You'll trip over your tongue and feel retarded for the first few weeks, but it really helps your audio comprehension and speaking.

>>11322043
Since you don't seem to be too hardcore, try WaniKani as well. It goes on a pretty slow pace that's pretty easy to understand and remember.

>>11324954
>>11322651
>>11322499

Thanks a lot! Indeed I am not "hardcore", I prefer thoroughly understanding what I learn rather than rushing through everything at once. I'll keep going at a steady pace for now!

>>11322041
I'm in the UK so no.
I've tried a few at different levels (school, college, uni, unaffiliated) and know people who have gone through others.
They're either 20+ people and the teachers can't cover all the ability levels in the class or are inordinately expensive.

>>11322499
This is the basic structure, you can tweak it a little depending on how you learn though.
I learned a bit of speech and vocab before hiragana and started katakana at the same time as Genki and just progressing through that atm. (Will have to pick up RTK soon though.)

I also would recommend being wary of anime for 4, they exaggerate voices a lot. It's ok for vocabulary but you will pick up weird ways of speaking, find a native speaker to talk to (language exchanges) and watch some live action bits to mitigate this.

>>11324974
You should. Do what works best for you man.

Some people can learn very fast by pounding themselves with Kanji, I don't, it only stressed me for 4 months to see and understand the parts of a kanji, but not remember the meanings my heart.

So go on your own pace because nothing is stopping you from doing so.

Hope you have a good day.

Speaking of learning, I went to my first Japanese class today. I needed a class so I still count as a student (so I can transfer easier without having to explain why I took a break even though I'm done) so I figured Japanese might help me get started learning.

The teacher was alright. He had us fill out a sheet with some information and then introduce ourselves in front of the class. The questions we were supposed to answer included name, major, and favorite anime/manga.

Never have I seen so many shit taste weeabos and streaming fags congratulating each other over having Fullmetal Alchemist or "Attack on Titan" as their favorite.

A few people either did not watch any anime or were hiding their power levels, though. I said I couldn't think of just one favorite and left it at that. I'm not one to deny my hobbies but I really don't want to associate with those plebs.


So, anyone else have any experience with classes? Hopefully good experiences? Did you learn anything or was it a waste of time?

>>11328090
No, I'm trying to figure out what to expect.

>>11328081
Cool! Keep us informed, mang.

（´・ω・｀）ｼｮﾎﾞｰﾝ

I just checked Amazon for White Rabbit kanji flash cards.
The first set is twenty bucks.
The next two are ninety to one hundred dollars, separately.
What the fuck?

>>11328081
I took 4 semesters of Japanese in college. It was helpful in that the professors and TAs were native Japanese and could correct our mistakes. However, at the rate we learned it would take many years to reach fluency. In 4 semesters, I think we learned a total of maybe 300 kanji or so. 400-500 at most.

I will say that if I had never taken the classes, I probably would never have learned Japanese. They gave me a good foundation to build upon. Knowing hiragana, katakana, common grammar, and some basic kanji gave me the ability and confidence to self study after I graduated. Before I took the classes, I was doing stupid shit like taking a week to learn 5 hiragana.

If you're intelligent and self-motivated, classes are mostly worthless unless you need someone to help you with pronunciation. I was not so self-motivated, so they helped me.

>>11328131
What advantage would those actually have over Anki?

>>11328136
I learn better with physical things, it's all about preference.
I always neglect anki, but when I was learning kana with flashcards I finished it in a day or two.
Why must you pry so much?

>>11328135
That is what I'm hoping for, too. I'm hoping it will help me stay focused.

>>11328139
Was legitimately curious. You mentioned a specific brand, so I wondered if there was anything special about them. I learned kana with flashcards, though the sheer number of kanji makes digital more appealing to me. To each their own of course.

>>11328147
I'm sorry I got a little out of hand there.
I just get shit for not using anki a lot.
I just hear that those ones are the best, but I'm not sure.
I think someone posted a card from one of those decks in this thread and it looked pretty good to me.

>>11328150
Make your own? The main reason tout Anki so much is it's free.
$90+ for a set of flashcards considering you could get them digitally for free.
If you prefer physical though then printing/making you own may work better for you. Only downside with making your own is you build on your own mistakes.

Hey you like physical flashcards? What do you think about this system? I'm going to try it with a 3000 card deck.

>>11273016
You need a tutor when youre a lazy faggot who doesnt like to work hard on your own.

>>11329420
This just reminded me to get back to the textbook...

>>11329420

wouldn't you want a qt teaching you?

>>11330888
I want my own qt

>>11337655
me too

goodbye thread!