/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>not using the original art

>>11269423
get a loaf of this niwaka

Hi.

Umineko went to shit after ep3. Higurashi is good though.

>>11269491
after ep1*

So.. what has 07th Expansion been up to recently? Are they going to release something in the near future?

>>11269560
*since ep1

>>11269491
>ep
why anime?

>>11269573
Because only anime can have episodes, am I right?

>>11269561

RGDS3 - Next comiket

>>11269561
RGD for the two next comikets, then, if the translation of the ambiguous sentence in Ryukishi is not totally retarded, it will be the next WTC.

I am asymptotically hyped, but for no, the curve has not even begin.

Rosa is my waifu

>>11269753
Rosa gave me a fetish for used goods with kids. Just imagine her skill in bed.

>>11269666
>>11269724

I see, I'll keep my hype low for now then. Thank you both.

>>11269833
Unfortunately real used goods are nearly as cute and good as Rosa. Not to mention that they usually don't even have a Maria.

>>11269833

Same here. Being a father to a cute young girl *and* making a lonely MILF happy?

It's like my happy sex fetish magnified

when's 07 gonna shit out the next WTC so we can discuss it to death

Erika was literally the only thing that managed to keep me interested in episodes 5 and 6.

>>11271532
This post literally gave me cancer. I read it, then I went to a checking to the doctor, and I had a cancer. That's how cancerous this post was.

>>11272150
rip in piece anon
i'll send the favorite flowers of your touhou when perish

Just so we are clear, nobody here actually thinks that Beatrice is Shannon, right?

>>11272223
I don't think so but it's not impossible.

>>11272257
Yes it is.

>>11272271

For some reason this image reminds me how anus anguished I am at how few aunt ero doujins there are

>>11272223
>2013
>/jp/, clusterfuck of autistic retards who can't even use meme arrow straight.
>Believing the incoherent conspiracy theory.

I Shiggy Diggy.

>>11272725
That's an acronym? I always thought it was just a funny word.

>>11272673
>doujins

>>>/a/

>>11272725
Who are you quoting?

>>11272735
It's called meme arrow you sucker. It is used for meme. 4chan invented it.

>>11272765
>asexuals

Imagine being an asexual and joining that club.

>>11272730

Who are you quoting?

>>11272769
Why aren't you quoting him?

>>11272730

Sumimasen Anon-san I meant 同人誌

Us weebs man, us weebs :^)

>>11272765
I hate how they equate hope and love as basically a zone where you can meet and fuck.

Also legitimately mad that they threw in artists and writers and "Warriors" and all the other things next to their gay garbage.
Maybe it's just me, but it seems like they do that because they think they have "soul", unlike those boring straight people.

It's just missing a "remember: you're awesome! :D" to send me into seizures.

In this context "Warriors" almost certainly means people who tell you to check your privilege on tumblr.

God forbid the poor gays have to hang around with any of the baby killin' muhreens

>>11272223
She's not actually a servant. She's the master of Rokkenjima.

>>11272973
This argument isn't valid. Even if we assume Shannon IS the master of Rokkenjima, this doesn't change her status as a servant. She is both the master of Rokkenjima AND a servant.

>>11273007
Why are you even doing this? It's one of theses little conspiracy arguments that are so trivially demolished, why are you still trying to use them when they ended being relevant three years ago?

Are you really too dumb to answer such a simple question? Is it an elaborate form of bait? Something like that?

That pisses me of, really. Like for the twin appearance of Shannon and Kanon, in ep5. There is trivial answers, easily found, by absolutely everybody with a small amount of brain. And still, theses questions come back two minutes later, again and again. And again. And again, and again, and again. Sometimes by the same people, for the love of god! Do something else with your life: you proved that you're, quite literally, unfit to think about Umineko.

Sorry, I won't answer you. I don't spoonfeed babies, nor does I have the patience to deal with retards.

>>11273159
>Why are you even doing this?
Because it's, quite simply, fact. Rosa is Beatrice, not Shannon and you have to be an utter retard not to see it. And therein lies the irony of your post. Commit suicide.

>>11273170
So you are trying to use an argument that was demolished three years ago because you have a gut feeling that the most logical explanation, the explanation given officially by Ryukishi, is wrong? You are using wrong arguments to sustain your absurd theory because you think you're right? Can't you see honestly where is the problem now?

Sorry to break your little power trip, mongrel. I'm sure you're happy to believe you are cleverer than Ryukishi, all his fans, and the world, but sometimes you need to understand that Santa Claus doesn't exist. The earth is round. Americans landed on the moon. The loch ness monster most probably doesn't exist.

>>11273209
>that was demolished three years ago
It's never been demolished. As it stands it remains the most valid theory.
>the explanation given officially by Ryukishi, is wrong?
Huh, I guess you're right then, it's not like Umineko was about fucking with the reader's expectations and concealing the truth or anything... oh wait it was.

>>11273238
>It's never been demolished.

The argument of Shannon being a servant and thus couldn't be the culprit? Demolished three years ago. The argument of Shannon and Kanon being in the same place at the same time in the beginning of ep5? Reduced to small atoms three years ago. You are basically burying your head in the sand and yelling that you see farther than everybody.

The Rosatrice theory goes against everything that is explained in Chiru. Of course, I'm not against finding your own theory, but you need direct proof, you need compelling arguments to goes against the challenge. You have none. Rosatrice has none. You're saying "Look, if we ignore everything that was said in Chiru, and everything that goes against my theory, then Evatrice is the most valid theory".

Hubris, childish vanity, stupidity, all in the same package.

Even now, there's so many good things to talk about Umineko. The Yasu is Ikuko theory. The Kyrie is the culprit theory. Enough inks to fill thousand of pages, and indeed, it already did. But your conspiracy theory is laughable, and I find despairing that you're still hanging to it.

>>11273283
>Demolished three years ago.
If by 'demolished' you mean the pitiful argument you presented earlier then you're wrong.
>The argument of Shannon and Kanon being in the same place at the same time in the beginning of ep5? Reduced to small atoms three years ago.
I never used this argument.
>The Rosatrice theory goes against everything that is explained in Chiru. Of course, I'm not against finding your own theory, but you need direct proof, you need compelling arguments to goes against the challenge. You have none. Rosatrice has none. You're saying "Look, if we ignore everything that was said in Chiru, and everything that goes against my theory, then Evatrice is the most valid theory".
But Rosatrice fits far better than Shakanontrice ever could.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHMta4YbjSM
Educate yourself.

>>11273301
Why do you believe I'm laughing so much at you? I've already seen that video. I wouldn't be here if I didn't found your childish eagerness to believe in aliens amusing.

Look, evidently, you want to believe. In your conspiracy theory about a truth so hidden you're the only one to see it. No amount of discussion will change your mind, no amount of name calling will make you see the light. I'm out, I've over things to do today.

>>11273313
>I've already seen that video.
Evidently not, since you seem to misrepresent the entire case for Rosatrice. Perhaps, if you have seen it, then you should rewatch it since you seem to fundamentally misunderstand it.

>>11273007
Shannon doesn't really have to obey a single person in the household, and anyone who knows about her status as the master takes orders from her. A person pretending to be a servant (or more than one servant) isn't necessarily a servant.

Basically, master opposed to servant.

http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Our_Confession

>>11272223

Are you for real?

So...

Was magic real, or what?

>>11273718
[citation needed]

>>11275511

Yes, it was real.

>>11273718
She's a servant character.
In my book, even if it's technically valid, it's still bullshit.
Imagine if every classic mystery story ended with the butler actually being a KGB agent or a ninja sent to kill the victim. Sure, they're technically not servants, but it's not any less stupid.

Beatrice did it with magic you fucking morons.

>>11281341
but who was beatrice

>>11281371
Tometake.

>>11281371
More Risatrice proof.

>>11281371
Final bit of evidence. I think that this scene symbolizes Ange freeing herself of the delusion of Beatrice.

wait, that looks more like packing tape?

>>11272765
>>11272781

Notice how they didn't say ``men", but they said ``women". I don't really have a problem with ``men" being excluded because most people are less intelligent than the average person, which says alot. And since men tend to force themselves on a situation (remember, this can be good if used correctly) the less intelligent ones usually mess things up for everyone else and create problems by doing/saying stupid stuff.

tl;dr Most men are just as retarded as most women. The entire Earth is a shit.

>>11281452
It's a sorority, why would you even expect men to be allowed??

>>11281371
Maria.

Why is Kinzo so perfect?

>>11281707
Because he's a fantasy of so many people that his personality can become anything you want.

Personally, I like to think of Kinzo as a transgendered furry.

>>11281707
Because he's going to be the protagonist for When They Cry 5 and 6. Mark my words.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NjOSlRYNm0

BTW, I've heard that on 07thExpansion's twitter there's something about "you don't have to wait too much for the next Naku koro ni".
I pissed my pants in excitement.

>>11272223
Of course not, since Shannon does not exist.
Beatrice is Yasu, the Lord of Rokkenjima who solved the epitaph and inherited everything. Sadly he/she's a bit mad, so he/she has a personality disorder that gave "life" to shannon, kanon and other aberrations.
ALSO, Yasu is still alive.
The only red we have is that Beatrice died on October, 1986, BUT Beatrice is a personality of Yasu. No one said shit about yasu being dead or alive at the end of Umineko.
Same goes for Kinzo. Kinzo is dead at the start of all GAMES, but the games are not the reality. Kinzo faked his death before Yasu, then escaped from Rokkenjima. KINZO IS ALIVE!
I wouldn't put it past father

>>11275511
Yes. Yes yes yes. Magic exists.
If you say that it was a trick, then you understood nothing about umineko.

>>11273718

That was nice to read. A lot of information shared, while still not actually giving the story that gave the end result we see in EP8.

Beatrice is Batwoman Eva

>>11281406
>>11281411
>>11281412
>fun with a debugger 3.png
Is this in the game or did you put it there?

RGD is probably the worst thing he's ever written. He should really write another Higanbana or work on the next WTC.

>>11281667
Maria is more culpable than people give her credit for. If she hasn't begged Beato to help her get revenge it probably never would have happened. Nice job, Ange.

>>11283780
Who says that EP8 is Rokkenjima Prime?

>>11284179
And then Beato decides that she would rather create a universe with Battler and Maria is banished to oblivion.

Poor Maria, her only friend is Satoshi and she has to do his voice as well. Even the social worker let Rosa beat the shit out of Maria right in front of her. Then Beato went to play with some dumb faggot and took all of Maria's furniture with her. So, so sad. It like all the worst parts of Rena and Satoko's pasts rolled into one miserable little pile of delusions. She definitely deserves to get to cause a massacre or two.

>>11284143
It's what happens when you use magic to get more than 18 medals in the quiz party.

>>11284378
>her only friend is Satoshi
I mean Sakutaro, but their basically the same comfort-object anyway.

>>11284166
I liked RGD season 1. Sure it doesn't have one hundredth of the grip WTC has, but it was still a very fun read for me.

>>11284411
I loved RGD.
Past the midpoint, it got completely tense.
Miguel was insane and him going all out saying how much woman are shit creeped me out.

>>11283276
Of course Yasu is alive. Yasu is Tohya/Battler. With the magic of testosterone, Yasu was able to make up for the balls he lost, and became the Kinzo clone he was meant to be.

The incident on Rokkenjima was really just the result of gas from the furnace seeping into the vents and killing everyone.

There I solved the mystery.

>>11276592
Where exactly is it said that Beato's game follows Dine rules?

>>11284520
Nowhere but they still follow them.

>>11284523
>3. There must be no love interest. The business in hand is to bring a criminal to the bar of justice, not to bring a lovelorn couple to the hymeneal altar.

hmmm...

> 18. A crime in a detective story must never turn out to be an accident or a suicide. To end an odyssey of sleuthing with such an anti-climax is to hoodwink the trusting and kind-hearted reader.

EP2 and EP4 have suicides. The culprit suicides.

If you count the bomb then every episode does.

>>11284536
There is no love interest between the detective and anyone else.

Completely validated.
Having the murderer have a crush on the detective is completely acceptable so long as the detective is not sidetracked.

>>11284546
It means the initial murder. It's OK if the culprit later goes on to kill himself.

>>11284546
Didn't the murderer for And then there were none also have the culprit who committed suicide?

>>11284595
Battler is the detective and he has a love interest in Beato.

>>11284762
No he doesn't.
In all games with a mystery theme, he doesn't love beato.
And Will has no love in the 7th game.

>>11284795
>Will
>Having no love

Ok now you're just trolling.

>>11284822
Leon wasn't a romantic love interest

>>11284831
>Will
>Not giving Lion the Detective Dick

>>11284839
After the game probably

>>11284839
He gave her the dick in ep8, when he was no longer the detective.

He's a stupid idea. If Vine Dine's rules don't apply in ep7, why does Will use them?

>>11284850
Here's*

Ryukishi confirmed that the Van Dine rules don't apply to Beatrice's game, guys.

>K: When I saw “Quit the SSVD” written in the character bio, I was like “What?!”. If it’s like that, then the plot is actually satisfactory. I really grew to like Will.

>R: If everything happens in complete accordance to Van Dine’s 20 Rules of Detective Fiction, then the motive becomes basically obsolete and is removed from the cornerstones of the story. So that’s how it became my goal to eliminate the 20 rules and how they vanished from Umineko.

>K: Most of Will’s 20 Van Dine Rules were never claimed to have effect during the story. Many of them were also interrupted. And many of those claimed to have effect were written in plain white letters.

>R: Yes. I thought about using them a lot actually, but in the end I didn’t

Ryukishi used the servant rule early on as a test for true understanding of the culprit (the master of Rokkenjima, not a real servant) and I think you could see Will throwing the "all clues must be presented" one at Bern as a way for Will to verify that the mystery wasn't a bunch of impossibly to solve bullshit before he started.

>>11269434
get a leaf of this secondary.

>>11284878
He said he thought about introducing it sooner but didn't. Nothing more to it.

>>11284506
>The incident on Rokkenjima was really just the result of gas from the furnace seeping into the vents and killing everyone.
For an explosion that big? Did they have a natural gas plant down there or something? Well... I wouldn't put it past him.

Okonogi did it with the Yamainu to steal the gold.

The thing I hate about the Shkannon vs. Rosatrice infighting is, what does that really matter? The thematics of a story are the most important. Themes like trust and belief, or gender identity and love...

It's like when people argue if Marlow had a hidden agenda in Heart of Darkness. It has literally no impact on the thematics at all.

>>11285078
If you accept Shkanontrice, then you have to accept that you've been fapping to a man.

>>11285083
As long as it's meta Beatrice, it's fine.
But I really don't mind Yasu. I mean, Lion makes a good trap.

Do people seriously still believe in the official explanation?

>>11285078
I disagree... If you think rosatrice is true then you didn't solve the mystery of Beato's heart which is the whole history that ryukishi put so you miss the theme and become a goat

>>11285162
I'll concede that Rosatrice works a shitload better than Shkanon for EP1-4 (I never liked the fact that tulpas can be considered as separate people for living\dead status while in read). But the autistic dutch faggot's excuses for Chiru was unconvincing at best, and just as contrived as he claims Shkanon is at worst.

>>11285162
>official explanation

What official explanation? I thought there was no official explanation, merely fan theories, which is one of the reasons people grew to dislike the series.

>>11285162
I believe in both the Shakannon and the Rosatrice theory

It all depends on how you spin it.

>>11285221
He means the one Ryukishi gave during his interview and the assumption given from Our Confession.

>>11285162
What are you talking about? Rosa TOTALLY isn't suspicious at all.

Episode 5:
>[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?] [in red]Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out.

Episode 3:
>6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!

Episode 3:
>There are no more than 18 people on this island
(if we assume that people = personalities then the personalities of Yasu (Yasu, Beatrice, Claire, Shannon and Kanon) add up to more than 18, even when subtracting Kinzo)

Daily reminder that your "people = personalities" theory is fucking retarded and Shkanonfags should hang themselves.

>>11285407
The personality that was Yasu no longer exists in 1986, she's been replaced by Beatrice, Shannon, and Kanon. Claire doesn't exist on the game board.

>>11285436
You're ignoring that Erika defines a person as a body in red in the fifth game, but alright then.

In the fourth game and the sixth game it is confirmed in red there are no more than 17 on the island. If we subtract Claire and Yasu, that adds up to 18. Therefore, person must refer to bodies and not personalities.

>>11285454
I don't really give a shit about what the truth is, I'm just correcting you. Honestly though I think Shkanon probably is true. Episode 7, from beginning to end, was pretty much nothing more than screaming "It's Shannon!", and it was said that Episode 7 is no longer a mystery, and is instead meant to almost hand out the answer to you. I'm pretty sure the reason for the contradictions with earlier parts of the story is that Ryukishi fucked up. I don't know why people consider it so impossible for him to make mistakes.

>>11285478
>I don't know why people consider it so impossible for him to make mistakes.
Because Rosatrice fits so fucking well.

Our Confessions confirms that shkannon is false. The theory was already believed to be the solution by the entire community before the release of Our Confessions, so the fact that he released it the way he did is telling the smarter readers that it's not true.

>>11285498
Our Confession is so fucking contrived and poorly written. It feels like R07 is saying "see this Shkanon theory? See how fucking stupid it is?"

>>11285494
It felt to me like Ryukishi just changed his mind on the culprit half way through the story, and realizing he made a mistake by doing this, he decided to not explicitly give the answer in order to cover up his mistake. He said what he regretted most about his works is trying to tailor things to the fans with Umineko.

>>11285522
That's entirely possible, especially when we factor in his friend's death and the fact that Rosatrice was easily the most popular theory before the Chiru arcs released.

>>11285509
>It feels like R07 is saying "see this Shkanon theory? See how fucking stupid it is?"

That's precisely what he was saying by releasing Our Confessions. It's a confirmation that shkanon is false like I said.

>>11285498
>Our Confessions confirms that shkannon is false.

Can you think straight for even one little moment? Please. I know there is nothing self-centered and wrong than an autistic who believes in a conspiracy theory, but please, use your fucking mind.

Our Confessions is meant to be a reflexion between the limits of Shkanontrice and what really happened in Rokkenjima Prime. It is meant to say 'Look, Shkanontrice is true, but did she really kill anyone this fragblus day? Good question.' It is meant to make you think about the accident theory and the Kyrie culprit theory, both theory being well understood, well documented and logical.

Taking it as a confirmation for your little conspiracy theory is the most retarded thing you can do, and indeed did. The fact that you're doing exactly that without shame is a proof that you're profoundly incapable to find the truth. You fixed yourself on a falsity and you won't change your mind, the facts, the logic, the reality be damned.

You are so vocal about it that I can't help but wonder if you're the little guy who did this little video. It makes me sad to think there is two, or three people, who were convinced by this charlatan.

It's true that the answer to Umineko changed half way, but I don't think it's because Ryuukishi07 wanted to change it, but he HAD to change it because the real mystery writer was BT who had just died.

Umineko itself is dedicated to "my beloved with beatrice" which refers to BT. In other words, BT was the "witch" posing a mystery to Ryuukishi07 but he died without leaving him the answer. I think Rosatrice is probably a glimpse of what the real answer was, and the answer was left vague precisely because it was unknown.

>>11285655
>You are so vocal about it
That was my only post in this thread. Rage harder splurging autist, please. It's highly entertaining.

I'll give you a listen when you present actual counter-evidence instead of having an emotional menustration

>>11269405
Shannon and Kanon are two diffrent people on the Gameboard

But on Rokkenjima Prime there is only 1 Young servant

Yasu


Rosa is Culprit

People who think Rosa is the culprit are seriously stupid.

If you don't see how poorly laid outKnownNoMore theory is then you don't remember shit about Umineko. Everything he says is contradicted several times throughout the story. He just chooses to ignore it, or calls it a deception.

>>11285407
Featherine explains it in EP6, while talking about chick Beato and Ange's past.
We recognize people not from their body but from their personality. If Ange had her family back she would have been a different person, while her body is still the same.
That dialogue isn't there just for the sake of it, it is a great hint towards the truth. Ryukishi is explaining that people are recognized by PERSONALITY, not body. That's why chick beato is a different person from troll beato, they share the same body but have different personalities.
Also, there are no more than 18 people is true, in fact even if yasu has 1 million personalities, he/she can't use them all in the same moment, so there's only one active while the others are "resting" in his/her mind.
After all... pic related.

Is there femdom elements in the second game?

>>11286088
You're confusing meta personalities with real personalities.

And how does saying that including Erika, that the number of people only include 17, actually kill her?

I never understood that.

>>11286114
Actually yes, at the start of the second episode, there's a good bit of femdom.

>>11286459
It's all over, but mostly at the end.

>>11286454
What? I am saying that on the game board they recognize persons by their personality, so the same body can use two personalities and create two persons.

Also, it kills her the same way battler is killed in EP5, that red stops Erika reasoning and puts and end to her theories, thus killing her. Remember how Battler was pierced by Dlanor's red longsword after he didn't manage to present any proof to support his crazy theories? That's it.

>>11286787
>What? I am saying that on the game board they recognize persons by their personality, so the same body can use two personalities and create two persons.
This is outright disproved in Episode 5.
>>[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?] [in red]Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out.
Put Shkanon to rest and die like Erika, okay?

>>11286787
>Also, it kills her the same way battler is killed in EP5, that red stops Erika reasoning and puts and end to her theories, thus killing her.

Battler died because he tried to bring a magic element to the game.

I don't see how Erika saying she's the 17th member and Battler rejecting her is connected to how Battler got fucked in the 5th game.

>>11286840
- in one context, word x could be considered equivalent to word y
- therefore, in all other contexts, these two words are equivalent
- so my perfectly logic mind deduces that x means y always
- and also all red statements are actually arguments of formal logic
- and my understanding of these these statements that are definitely arguments of formal logic doesn't change in translation from one language to another
- also even though the entire second half of the world disproves my hypothesis, that part was put there as at rick

Checkmate, christians

Erika was on Rokkenjima in all games. She washes up on Rokkenjima in the storm and dies. Her being 'lost in the fragments of eternity', as Bernkastel refers to it, refers to her death going on unremembered due to it being overshadowed by Rokkenjima prime.

>>11286866
>in one context, word x could be considered equivalent to word y
Considering he is asking her to define a word, yes, it does apply to all situations. That's what a definition is.

>>11286873
It must be nice to be so strongly deluded that you can state something perfectly false in such a matter-of-fact sort of way.

All she did was establish the definition being used in a specific context. If I tell you in a discussion that by "drink" I mean "alcoholic drink" do not go back to all instances of me, and even other people saying "drink" in completely different, unrelated discussions at other times and interpret the meaning as "alcoholic drink" always. Even if me and all the other people saying it were characters in the same work.

But you have been arguing against word of god for a good few years now, nothing I say will reverse your 8-hour brainwashing session.

>>11286886
>It must be nice to be so strongly deluded that you can state something perfectly false in such a matter-of-fact sort of way.
Funny, that's exactly what the Shkanon nerds do.
>Here it says they have different bodies
>NOOOOO THAT ISN'T WHAT IT MEANS SHKANON THEORY MUST BE TRUE SO I'M GOING TO TWIST LOGIC AND NOT TAKE THE RED TRUTH FOR VALUE AND ASSUME PERSON DOESN'T MEAN PERSON BUT ACTUALLY MEANS PERSONALITY

>Here it says a servant can't be the killer
>YASU ISN'T A SERVANT SHE'S THE MASTER EVEN THOUGH IT'S PERFECTLY POSSIBLE FOR HER TO BE THE SERVANT WHILE BEING THE MASTER AND WE ONLY ACTIVELY SEE HER AS A SERVANT SHE'S NOT A SERVANT BECAUSE REASONS

If Ryuukishi didn't know the answer to the story of Rokkenjima created by BT (BT died before revealing it?).
Then
is the EP5 his farewell to BT? Is Battler his selfinsert and Beatoriche a BT inserted into a character?

Why does Eva kill Battler in episode 3? Rosatrice accounts for this. Shkanontrice doesn't.

>>11286894
Didn't Ryukishi just write the story for BT and he had nothing to do with the story?
Only that his death depressed r07?

>>11286901
Easy, Kyrie and Rudolph were killing everyone because ep7 tea party is obviously gold truth
So Battler was probably in on it right?
Duh.

>>11286984
Rudolf and Kyrie were killed in the fourth and fifth twilights. Try again.

>>11287001
I know.

There were also killed in the first and second twilight.

Prime is the accumulation of all gameboards.
The more likely an event repeats itself, the most likely it occurred.

I honestly have no idea why Eva would kill Battler unless Battler's parents were in on it.

>>11287024
They*

>>11287024
>I honestly have no idea why Eva would kill Battler unless Battler's parents were in on it.
There is no valid explanation in the Shkanon theory. There is also no valid explanation for why Eva would allow herself to take all the blame and not tell everyone who the actual killer is in the Shkanon theory. The Rosatrice theory explains both of these adequately.

>>11287052
They try to wiggle their way out of it by trying to tie ep7 tea party with the facts but there really isn't any evidence to suggest it.

I personally like the Rosatrice theory with Eva because it completely destroys her.

That her son, the one she worked so hard so that he would inherit the family name, turned into such a piece of shit omega idiot that the only woman he could get was a completely submissve woman and that his solution to be with her was to kill his entire family.
And that he fucking failed.

Just that thought brings a sadistic smile to my face.
And if the world knew the facts, they would call George a murderer and Eva would be considered a terrible mother since she would be blamed for his upbringing.

In the manga, it's even more obvious that Eva never hid the truth for Ange's sake. She was out of her mind and wanted to die keeping the honor of her son to her grave.

Now that's dedication and a tragedy.
I don't agree with the whole theory but with Eva, it sounds great.

>>11287070
Poor George. R07 really hates him and his ilk.

>>11287080
Who didn't?

Everytime his glasses fogs up, he acts like a fucking autistic faggot.

He had a weaker damn backbone than Shannon.
Fucking Shannon who was submissive as fuck.

George is the only person in the family that is such a low life you can't imagine how much of a monster he is by being so much on an omega.

>>11272728
i thought it meant you only live online, and anyone using it was a hikki neet.

>>11281341
define magic. was the bomb called magic? was the mansion called magic? or maybe one of the guns?

or maybe there was some brain parasite codenamed magic?

>>11287271
>define magic
Anon pls

it was a fuckin' witch
how hard is it to understand
they've been drilling it in for how many episodes now??

>>11287301
He's such a goat, right?

>>11287358
Shut the fuck up turbogoat

What is r07 doing? is rose gun days over? is he working on a new when they cry? I miss waiting for a new ep every summer and winter.. it was special, the threads were fun too.

>>11269724
Is rgd good? how is ep2? So how long after two comikets? did he really say rgd is 4 eps anmd that he will do a wty again?

>>11287373
Fight me IRL I eat goat for breakfast.

umineko would of been amazing if battler manned up in the last ep and tried to push through beato being real/saving everyone. instead of being emo and fucking boring and shallow of a character and completely giving in to the shit.

>>11287375
I remember WTC5 being confirmed somewhere, can't tell you where though but apparently it's going to be soon.

>>11287388
Also if ep 7 never happened, that was retarded. Who though making a random new main character was a good idea?

>>11287385
Shut the fuck up. I'm a top tier observer witch. i'll fuck you up punk

Am I the only one who thinks the official explanation makes perfect sense? In the first part you're led to believe it's all a mystery and you're taunted by R07 to find out the truth. In the second part, you get to know why pursuing that truth can be harmful. So basically, you get to see all the conspiracy around Rokkenjima, a hint at what the truth may be, and why you shouldn't pursue it so vigorously. In the end, choosing magic as the answer is the most logical choice in my point of view, even if it does not correspond the truth.

>>11287451
>Am I the only one who thinks the official explanation makes perfect sense?
If you mean Shkanontrice then yes, you are. And you should probably re-read the VN.

>>11286892
Sorry, but the anon you're replying to is completely correct. Battler and Beatrice check with each other through the games to see if the definitions for various terms remains consistent from puzzle to puzzle, and neither sees anything amiss about this. You can't take a single definition given for a single instance and blindly apply it to every usage of that word ever. That is a pretty pathetic trap to fall into, honestly, but it's obvious you're clinging so hard to Rosatrice out of simple, base dislike for the truth.

Erika's definition check for the term people was specific to that room, and Beatrice used her assumption against her. It's the truth that three bodies entered the guest room at that point. At no point does Beatrice verify that the term people must refer to bodies all the time. In fact, the manga confirms that the 17/18 people question that killed Erika in EP6 came down to Erika and Beatrice/Battler using two definitions for the word "people."

>>11287623
Even if this were the case, you're ignoring the fact that it is said in red that there are 17 people, so therefore personalities cannot equal people.

>>11287623
>That is a pretty pathetic trap to fall into, honestly, but it's obvious you're clinging so hard to Rosatrice out of simple, base dislike for the truth.
The very act of trying to apply personality to person is clinging hard to the Shannon theory.

>>11287637
What part of "Erika and Beatrice/Battler were confirmed to be using two different definitions of the word people (therefore, the usage of the term is fluid, which Beatrice uses against people)" for that puzzle do you not understand?

>>11287644
It's also the explanation and the truth. They go out of their way to explain exactly this in EP6 and EP8, for goodness's sake! It's perfectly okay if you don't like it or you think it's cheating, but clinging to this absurd conspiracy theory that goes against everything presented in the story to cope is pretty pathetic.

>>11287674
Are you fucking retarded? I'm bringing up a completely different point all together. Also, can you provide one instance of something having a confirmed different definition in one game than another?
>>11287677
>They go out of their way to explain exactly this in EP6 and EP8, for goodness's sake!
Yeah, it's not like Umineko is a story about misleading the reader with unreliable narration or anything.
>but clinging to this absurd conspiracy theory that goes against everything presented in the story to cope is pretty pathetic.
Except Rosatrice fits far, far better than Shkanon. The only way to make Shkanon fit is to assume that when different people use the word 'person' they mean different things and there is no evidence to suggest this. You're starting with the theory and then trying to make it apply to the red text given. You have the cart before the horse.

>>11287693
>Also, can you provide one instance of something having a confirmed different definition in one game than another?
If you didn't pick up on that red truth is partially subjective and constantly needs definition checks, you're an idiot. Remember in EP3 how Ronove and Battler explained why Beatrice couldn't simply tell Battler "I'm a witch" in red, because it'd break the game? Guess what Beatrice states in red in EP4? "I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice."

Beatrice is a witch, it was magic, everyone go home, even though Ronove and Battler confirmed that she couldn't do this without breaking the game earlier, wait maybe the usage is a little different because of the context?

>Yeah, it's not like Umineko is a story about misleading the reader with unreliable narration or anything.
This is why people are (correctly) calling you out on being an insane conspiracy theorist. Everything that doesn't apply to your theory, you're able to write off in your head as a mislead. It's complete circular logic and allows you to dismiss over half of the story, simply because you don't like the idea that Umineko is about exploring using different personas as coping mechanisms and subjective truths.

>The only way to make Shkanon fit is to assume that when different people use the word 'person' they mean different things and there is no evidence to suggest this.
There is plenty of evidence. I just told you that EP6 and EP8 go out of their way to explain and explore this. The manga confirms it even further! It's set up early on when Battler puts out the suggestion that alternate personalities could be a way to get around the idea of dying, and it's not dismissed. But I'm sure you'll write those things off as simple "misleads" again because they don't fit what you want to believe.

>>11287719
>If you didn't pick up on that red truth is partially subjective and constantly needs definition checks
The red truth is objective, but it can be used to tell half truths and is reliant on context.
>Guess what Beatrice states in red in EP4? "I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice."
"Golden Witch" is a title. Next please.
>Everything that doesn't apply to your theory, you're able to write off in your head as a mislead. It's complete circular logic and allows you to dismiss over half of the story
It doesn't dismiss half the story. There are valid explanations for the Yasu backstory and the Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice battle within the Rosatrice theory. It doesn't dismiss them, just dismisses the implication. Furthermore, anything that isn't said in red or isn't viewed by the detective CAN be dismissed.
>The manga confirms it even further!
If we're going to use the manga as evidence then Battler sees both Shannon and Kanon together as the detective so your theory is instantly disproved.

>>11287732
If you understand the red truth is contextual and terms can change definition depending on the context, (in one instant witch means a being who uses magic, the next it's a title? THE RED TRUTH IS MEANINGLESS) why is it so fucking hard for you to understand that Erika's definition check for that puzzle was contextual? You're also flat-out wrong about the manga with the exception of EP5, which was the same as in the VN and was explained.

>>11287739
>why is it so fucking hard for you to understand that Erika's definition check for that puzzle was contextual?
Because the red truth is still objective and there is no confirmation of a definition changing between games at any point.
>You're also flat-out wrong about the manga with the exception of EP5
Actually no. Have you read the manga?

>>11287488
I don't necessarily mean the shkanontrice theory, no. Although most people seem to refer to the "official explanation" as the Shkanontrice theory and I did not know that. To be honest, I have another way of seeing the given explanations, but maybe I oversimplify things too much.

>>11287804
So you believe in magic then?

>>11287813
It's not whether you believe in it or not. More like, if you were in Ange's position, and had the choice, what would you choose?

I'm working out the final details on my Gohdabattlertrice theory. It explains pretty much everything without magic or split personalities.

Prepare to have your mind fucking blown and all the details revealed when I post it.

>>11287939

gohda was stated to not be a killer in episode 1 so this better be good

>>11288031
Oh it explains all of that. It explains the red, the blue, the gold, the metaworld, Lambda's past, Maria's father's identity, Eva's bitchery, and everything else. It's so comprehensive that it not only solves all the riddles of Umineko, but many of the ones in Higurashi as well. When I'm finished explaining the Gohdabattlertrice theory, you'll never look at WTC, or Ryukishi, the same again.

>>11287939
Oh that's just a load of phooey! Gohda's no killer. Who could acuse that face of wanted acts of evil. Not I.

>>11287939
>Gohda
I knew it.

Eva is the culprit in all games. When the red says that Eva is dead, it really means that only EVA-Beatrice is dead. Eva herself is just faking dead (with the help of Nanjo) and commits all the murders to keep all the money to herself and get rid of her faggot son and fat niggerish husband.

>>11288079
>but many of the ones in Higurashi as well
Ha! Finally the proof I need to say that Natsuhi and Krauss were vacationing in Hinamizawa that year when Satoko's parents were pushed off that cliff.

>>11287939
You have no idea how badly I want to hear this.

>>11288382

Satoko killed her own parents because she thought they were going to kill her/because of H. Syndrome.

>>11289169
I'm fairly certain that he knows that Anon. It's pretty hard too not know that. Higurashi actually had a definite solution. You'd have to be incredibly fucking retarded, almost to the point of literal illiteracy, to not get that.

Though maybe that's why Higurashi isn't discussed as much.

Best theory: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5386020/1/The-Ushiromiya-Rape-Fest

Kinzotrice theory. Oh desire.

>>11273283
The argument of Shannon being a servant and thus couldn't be the culprit? Not demolished three years ago. The argument of Shannon and Kanon being in the same place at the same time in the beginning of ep5? Not reduced to small atoms three years ago. You are basically burying your head in the sand and yelling that you see farther than everybody.

The Shkanontrice theory goes against everything that is explained in Chiru. Of course, I'm not against finding your own theory, but you need direct proof, you need compelling arguments to goes against the challenge. You have none. Shkanontrice has none. You're saying "Look, if we ignore everything that was said in Chiru, and everything that goes against my theory, thenShkanontrice is the most valid theory".

Hubris, childish vanity, stupidity, all in the same package.

Even now, there's so many good things to talk about Umineko. The Yasu is Ikuko theory. The Kyrie is the culprit theory. Enough inks to fill thousand of pages, and indeed, it already did. But your official theory is laughable, and I find despairing that you're still hanging to it.

>>11289702
>"Uu! UUUUU! I-it's hurts, Uu~" Maria shouted out as Battler pushed into her. He knew what he was doing was wrong, but how could he ignore that pretty little ass right in front of his face? Even if she was 9 and WAS his cousin, he needed to take her virginity. Besides, she would of just done it with someone else.
Awkward to read and gross.

>>11289182
I didn't even realize that I was supposed to be trying to solve Higurashi until Kai.

>>11291737
...even when in every 1-4 episode tea party the characters were making fun of you and talking about how you can't guess who's the culprit? Though to be fair, there were not enough clues to make a solid claim that Takano was behind everything, only wishful guesswork.
And even then, everything was only to make her a victim in the last chapter of Kai. Oh how I hate this Ryu07 habit, making every single person a victim, even the "culprit".

>>11291777
I doubt anyone could've worked out what Hinamizawa syndrome was pre-episode 6 unless thhey have a background in microbiology or medicine.

>>11291777
I wasn't quite that oblivious. I assumed it was a given that the Sonozaki's were behind it, and of course Takano. Who didn't look at Takano and think "I know that bitch is up to something". I certainly didn't think farther and come to anything remotely resembling brain parasites and a shadow government, much less parallel worlds with gods running around and doomed drunken lolies. Until I saw Shion's perspective I saw nothing to change that.

>>11291813
>Who didn't look at Takano and think "I know that bitch is up to something".
I thought she was a red herring, along with the manager who's name currently escapes me, though the manager probably knew more than he was letting on. I also managed to work out that Satoko likely killed her own parents and that insanity was likely common in Hinamizawa, though I didn't know why. Also I was pretty confident Sonozaki involvement was a red herring.

>>11291813
Takano was just a nurse, she's barely a person. Even Curry-sensei had more scenes and personality than she has in 1-4, so I ignored Takano. You don't even learn about her creepy hobbies until ep5. Side characters are just side characters, they're rarely to never the actual culprit.

>>11291918
>Takano was just a nurse, she's barely a person. Even Curry-sensei had more scenes and personality than she has in 1-4
Did you even read the VN? She's always the one to dump delusional legends on the one who goes crazy, then claims that the Sonozaki's are going to kill her if she says too much, which makes K1 or whoever hit L5. And Tatarigoroshi-hen she is basically shown to have killed Tomitake and almost decides to kill Keiichi. She's a huge character, and when there are like seven character images in the entire game, it is dumb to assume that one that got one would be a side character. (Umineko doesn't work like this, where even Kumasawa's fat faggot son got a sprite).

Takano is a huge character right from the beginning.

>>11291935
Also in the second episode it's revealed that her 'corpse' died the day before Wataganashi.

>>11291935
Yes I've read it, digging all the patches for BGMs was a pain. She never went crazy, all she did was to suddenly appear, speak about legends or laugh and then disappear for the rest of a episode. She's just a side character in first 4 episodes. Curry-sensei got a sprite too, this doesn't amount to a lot. You really need a lot of wishful thinking and unhealthy dose of paranoia to suspect her, since there is no solid clues that she's related to accidents.

>>11291962
>since there is no solid clues that she's related to accidents.

>has Tomitake's bike with her in episode 3 in the back of her car
>K1 says he's going to put his umbrella in her boot
>No! It's okay, you can keep it with you in the back.

>>11291935
>(Umineko doesn't work like this, where even Kumasawa's fat faggot son got a sprite).
You telling me you don't love this cute face?

>>11291962
>Curry-sensei got a sprite too, this doesn't amount to a lot.
Not until Kai.

>>11291976
If Sabakichi and Ange switched roles, how much better would Umineko have been?

>>11291998
Not much. It would still boil down to what is basically "But then it was all a dream!". The last resort of shitty writers who can't maintain even the pretense of internal consistency in their story.

>>11292007
Umineko really was terrible, wasn't it?

>>11292007
I think he tried to do that with Saikoroshi too to bridge the two stories.

Also, for all the meta that he introduced, there was pretty much no other way to tie up all the lose ends.

>>11292011
That assessment is a little harsh, don't you think? The ending may have been wanting, but story's aren't read for their ending, they're read for what happens to get that ending.

And now I sound like a faggot.

>>11292020
>That assessment is a little harsh, don't you think? The ending may have been wanting, but story's aren't read for their ending, they're read for what happens to get that ending.
This argument might have merit, but it's a mystery story and mysteries exist to build up to a climax where the killer is revealed. It's about the destination, not the journey. To build everything up and then to leave us with nothing is just bad writing. To leave us with "fuck you goats for reading MY STORY wrong" is nothing short of bratty and entitled. Fuck R07 and fuck Umineko.

>>11292037
It's not mystery, it's anti-mystery.

>>11273301
I just read some of the comments on that video, and I've got to say that I'm surprised DEEN actually has fans. DEEN is hilariously shitty at everything they do.

>>11292037
Well that's true, he did go way overboard with it. He could have done it much more tactfully. And for all the waiting and discussion that we did, it was a pretty bad time to go completely off the beaten path and try something completely new and rather condescending. I also don't think it paints a very flattering picture of him or what plans he had for Umineko when he goes back on his statement in Higurashi that riddles aren't fun if you can't check them.

I mean, we WERE following with the implicit promise that there would be an answer at the end, and that we could gloat about it to people who didn't get it right later on. As it is, we've pretty much discussed everything and it's a deadlock between two theories that both have to disregard large parts of the story to make sense. The best we get is that he hints at an answer in interviews. I don't remember Agatha Christie having to give the solution of Ten Little Niggers in an interview for it to make sense.

But be that as it may, I don't think that the major disappointment that was the ending can be used to say that the entire series is shitty. It was still a nice read and gave us millions of man-hours of discussion (read: arguing) to keep us busy.

Maybe he'll get the message and tone it down until there are only a few layers of meta next time.

>>11292099
>As it is, we've pretty much discussed everything and it's a deadlock between two theories that both have to disregard large parts of the story to make sense.
More like one theory that makes complete and utter sense and another theory that makes no sense at all and the only reason it even serves as a contender to the former is due to the autism of its supporters and the ability to deny what is right in front of them. Now guess which one is which
> I don't remember Agatha Christie having to give the solution of Ten Little Niggers in an interview for it to make sense.
Well Agatha Christie reveals who the killer is in the epilogue so...

>>11292118
Don't try and drag me into your argument. I'm a firm believer in the "Beatrice did it with magic" theory.

>>11292123
Ah, you're no fun. The magic theory is actually a pretty viable one to be completely honest. The only way the metaworld can be explained 100% of "magic" and it's not like Higurashi was devoid of magical elements either even if it did have a non-magical answer. I mean, it's a pretty cheap explanation, but it is viable.

>>11292037
>To leave us with "fuck you goats for reading MY STORY wrong" is nothing short of bratty and entitled.
But didn't you hear? He really respects those goats and thought making them mindless arguing retards would flatter them!

>>11292168
He didn't actually say this, did he?

Fuck Ryukishi! I'll never forgive him for not writing Sakutaro's lust trial in purgatory! What a fucking cop out.

>>11292223
http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Answer_to_the_Golden_Witch
>K: He said those things during the fight against the goats, right?

>R: Exactly. Those goats who appeared at that point really had guts, hadn’t they? It was Will and Dlanor who said that, but I too actually have some respect for those goats who kept on making theories, even though they were attacked by the red again and again. I accept them as adversaries. Who I am really mad about are those goats who actually gave up thinking.

>K: Many people who criticize that scene seem to be missing that Will and Dlanor are accepting the goats as well.

>R: I really didn’t do a good job with that part, I seem to have screwed up majorly…

>>11292241
Wow. Okay.

>>11292241
Could he not find another proofreader after BT?

Oh, somebody replied to my post.
>>11284520
It isn't. But that shit is above the story. It's even one tier above the author. You don't make a servant the culprit because it's bullshit.
Some people talk like internal consistency overrides "bad writing".
Sure, the servant was actually an alien from a dimension where only servants kill people? Pretty neato. Quite original. I'll still call bullshit when I finish the last page.

>>11292260
>K: When I saw “Quit the SSVD” written in the character bio, I was like “What?!”. If it’s like that, then the plot is actually satisfactory. I really grew to like Will.

>R: If everything happens in complete accordance to Van Dine’s 20 Rules of Detective Fiction, then the motive becomes basically obsolete and is removed from the cornerstones of the story. So that’s how it became my goal to eliminate the 20 rules and how they vanished from Umineko.

>K: Most of Will’s 20 Van Dine Rules were never claimed to have effect during the story. Many of them were also interrupted. And many of those claimed to have effect were written in plain white letters.

>R: Yes. I thought about using them a lot actually, but in the end I didn’t. Even if you count in the war against the goats, there are just about 3 or 4. If you express it in the sense of an Anti-Mystery, who brought up Knox and Van Dine within the story were the players themselves. Since they were always pulled out even at the time of Higurashi.

>>11292265
You could accompany your quote with some text of your own so I can know what the hell you want to say.

Rosatrice theory makes sense if you say everything that makes it not make sense is just meant to mislead you. This works for any theory, like my "Kumananjo" theory.

>>11269491
>Umineko went to shit after ep3

Umineko went to shit as soon as it began, because the "answer" to the grand overarching mystery was always fucking stupid and the quality of a mystery novel depends on the quality of the solution.

HURR WE HAVE A CHARACTER WITH 20 ALTERNATE PERSONALITIES THAT ALL COUNT AS SEPARATE PEOPLE FOR THE PURPOSES OF REDTEXT DURR

I actually viewed the story as fantasy for the first four episodes, and then viewed it as mystery in the last four. I was stuck wondering why Battler was so retarded as to even attempt to deny magic that's right in front of him for those first four episodes.

Is what Rena said in red the absolute truth? Does that mean that there really were alien body-snatchers and controlling Hinamizawa through the shapeshifting Sonozaki house members?

>>11292396
>I was stuck wondering why Battler was so retarded as to even attempt to deny magic that's right in front of him for those first four episodes.

...Because that is the only way to fight the magic. Disbelieve and disprove it.

>>11292396
Yes, that annoyed me too. He's sitting in a magical room, eating cookies and drinking tea with a bunch of demons and witches, but still denies witches. He's being killed dozens of times by girls who turn into stakes and resurrected by golden butterflies. Did he think that he was on drugs or something? If he really didn't believe, then why didn't he just walk off and not even give her any attention?

>>11292412
Well he failed pretty miserably at that then. His victory was only possible after he understood magic and was given a witch title.

>>11292418
>Well he failed pretty miserably at that then.

The story really truned into something else (gibberish) as it went on, but the initial setup as presented was extremely clear: Battler battles the evil witch by disproving her with logic and evidence. If he succeeds, fucking everything is aborted and becomes nothing more than a figment of his imagination. If he fails, magic is real and the witch wins.

It baffles me that some people failed to grasp this extremely simple concept.

Beatrice used magic to make someone else kill everyone.

>>11292446
Not him, but I just assumed that was a lie so that Beatrice could have an excuse to toy with him some more. There was no way to disprove her with logic and evidence from my perspective sine I believed magic to be absolutely real, and that trying to disprove what is real is futile. The way I saw it the "match" was nothing more than a way for Beatrice to play with her new toy.

>>11292452
If Takano used an obscene amount of money to buy off the Yamainu and kill everyone in a way that looked like divine intervention, does that make Takano into MIYO-Beatrice, the Golden Witch?

>>11292370
>HURR WE HAVE A CHARACTER WITH 20 ALTERNATE PERSONALITIES THAT ALL COUNT AS SEPARATE PEOPLE FOR THE PURPOSES OF REDTEXT DURR
>believing Shkanon

>>11292311
Rosatrice theory doesn't tell you to ignore anything. Rosatrice theory accounts for the Yasu backstory, the episode 6 fight, everything, it just asks that you ignore the most obvious implication behind them and adopt a new one. The Shannon theory is the one that asks you to ignore things like Eva killing Beatrice and tries to twist the red truth in order to make the theory make some semblance of sense.

>>11292454

But that was not something Beatrice came up with. That was Battler's idea. And whenever Battler disproved some part of Beatrice's existence, she was visibly hurt.

>>11292475
As it stands, every theory other than "it was magic" requires you to ignore many things in order to make sense.

You know maybe there is no answer and R07 just fucked up.
Sure makes more sense than shkanonrosasumugohdashiromiyatrice.

>>11292476

Shkanon is the only real theory presented that explains everything. If R07 didn't want it to dominate, he should have put a hard stop to it.

At this moment, everything else than Shkanon is just drowning man grasping at last remaining straws. I don't like it, I think it makes for a garbage story, but that's how it is.

>>11292477
But I felt at the time that Beatrice just went along with it for fun. The way I saw it, Beatrice was purely sadistic and evil, and any sign of compassion or mercy from her was just an act of trickery. Her appearing to be hurt was also something I assumed to be trickery. I even felt that the red truth couldn't be believed, and it being absolute was just an another act of hers to have some fun. It wasn't until after episode four that I realized this wasn't the case. The only hint of not being purely evil I had from Beatrice was when Bernkestel and Lambdadelta were around, but even then I figured that was an act to fool Battler, and that they were all actually working together.

>>11292482
Even "it was magic" requires you to ignore stuff, like Will disproving Claire's existence in episode 7.

>>11292497
>Shkanon is the only real theory presented that explains everything.
Except Rosatrice explains everything perfectly and doesn't contradict the red truth.
>If R07 didn't want it to dominate, he should have put a hard stop to it.
That's the point. He DID want it to dominate.

Who is (was) BT and how did he affect to the story?

>>11292503
Bernkastel being the main villain of Umineko really took me by surprise.

>>11292514
BT is R07's friend that died I believe.
>how did he affect the story
He died.

>>11292519
Rika being the true protagonist of Higurashi really took me by surprise.

She's a very fickle girl.

>>11292509
>That's the point. He DID want it to dominate.

... Why would he EVER. That makes NO sense. WHy would he ever want the majority of people to believe a theory that makes his magnum opus look like total, absolute shit?

>>11292525
Because we have already invested 200+ hours into reading all his stuff and thousands of hours discussing it, and we aren't about to stop now. He could write a tetris clone in nscripter and we'd discuss the deeper meaning of it at this point.

>>11292525
>Why would he EVER. That makes NO sense.
R07 said two things when Umineko was being made. He said he wanted to write a story that only a minority could understand (5% he said) and he wanted to write a story that couldn't be easily spoiled due to the information age making shit (like Higurashi) easy as tits to spoil. If we assume Shkanon is correct... well who could go through Umineko and not understand Shkanon? Certainly less than 95%.

>Rosatrice

Just the thought of Rosa developing an all-consuming, self-destructive love for Battler is so ridiculous that it makes me laugh every single time.

>>11292527
Once episode 5 rolled around I figured we weren't going to be seeing much more of K1. He stops being relevant after episode 3. Even episode 6 is mostly Rena.

>>11292534
>he wanted to write a story that couldn't be easily spoiled due to the information age making shit (like Higurashi) easy as tits to spoil.
Copypaste'd from that interview:
>Though, when I read thoughts like yours, then I actually get better again. After the release of EP8 it became especially harsh. I thought about retiring after Umineko. That is why Umineko has a culprit who can only be understood by people who think. I wanted to give it a culprit that cannot be copypasted. In that sense, I think YASU is a groundbreaking invention.
Well shit, that was easy.

>>11292541
To be fair, Rosa has flirted with Battler and he thinks she is attractive.

>>11292541
Rosa is actually suffering from DID but doesn't crossdress openly without people realising and doesn't count personalities as individual entities.

>>11292547
>I thought about retiring after Umineko.
Well shit. When you write a big 'fuck you' to your fanbase they turn on you. Who would've figured?

>>11292538
Getting 50% of the screen time and being the most objective viewpoint can hardly be called irrelevant.

>>11292555
BT maybe? Things got really out of hand when he died. It seems like Ryu just stopped giving a fuck and wrote anything he felt like.

>>11292555
>write a mystery novel
>get mad when people try to solve it
What a prick.

Any theories about the next WTC?
Any patterns between Higurashi/Umineko you think will be in the next WTC?
Have there been any hints about what's going to be next?

>>11292563
It's anti-mystery thou. Didn't you read the TIP? Anti-mystery is about fucking with the reader so much that he stops reading, deletes the game, and calls him a prick on the internet.

How does it feel to have been so thoroughly played?

>>11292493
what if r07 was battler (and in a way auaurora), while bt was beatrice? bt created the initial mystery, rokkenjima prime, r07 tried to solve it through his games.

then bt died and so, beatrice did too. r07 never had a chance to confirm his theories and so, series went to the shitter when r07 started using his own discoveries and theories to write the extra stories, assuming he understood it.

>>11292577
Bernkastel and Lamdadelta will most probably appear in the next WTC based on their final lines in Umineko.

Is Red Days Rose (or whatever the fuck it's called) worth reading?

>>11292592
Wizards

>>11292574
I would feel worse if I had payed for it.

>>11292587
If they do I hope it's not as witches.

>>11292446
>>11292418

No, you got it wrong.

From my point of view it's like that
-the longer he spend in metaworld, the more separated he got from his "piece" self until there was no going back anymore

probably, if he solved the first 4 games then he would be teleported into his game board body and more or less go from there on, then, eventually, forget about the metaworld just like "magic ending" Ange did

but he didn't
as he was taking hits and losing time he saw less and less of 1986 and more and more of meta

until his "1986" self was nothing but a piece on a chessboard and he could no longer control it or associate with it

as you can remember ep1 Battler and even ep2 are pretty much one and the same with the "piece"
in ep3 there is already a certain distinction between them
even in ep4 he is able to temporarly take his body and switch between meta and chessboard

then Beato asks him one last time what the solution of her riddle is
he does not now
his existence is denied
piece battler becomes just a piece

but still
while Beato was alive, he could still return

after ep4 perfect ending where everyone lives was forever lost
no, it was probably forever lost when Ange appeared.

But still, maybe, it was still possible just for him to return if he solved it and killed Beato
but he didn't

Beato died
he was killed too, by a golden sword

and then he became the "Game Master", someone else, a part of magic world, incapable of going back

things turned out the way they did as a result of events from metaworld, not the other way

>>11292577
>Any patterns between Higurashi/Umineko you think will be in the next WTC?
Heheh, there aren't enough posts in a thread to list those!

>>11292599
Unreliable narration will likely feature in WTC 5/6. Also timeloops.

>>11292596
or jews

>>11292576

I could almost believe that. Certainly makes more sense than most Umineko theories.

>>11292594
Thanks, I'm glad to see a theory on this. I was always confused about the relationship between a person in the meta world and their piece counterpart, but nobody ever seems to have anything to say about it.

>>11292576
>>11292622
It wasn't like BT got run over by a car or anything. He'd been dying for awhile.

>>11292635
Everyone's dying all the time, right? It sure is ridiculous for Ryu to be upset by his friends death when we're all going to die in the heat death of the universe in a hundred trillion years anyway, amirite? Lazy fucker just didn't want to work, more like.

>>11292652
The point I'm making is that if BT was Beatrice and R07 Battler, BT was aware of his impeding death and realised he would likely not've lived until Umineko's conclusion and could've told R07 the answers either in person or in his will.

>>11291976
I hope he got tortured in Kyrie's sister's underground tea room.

Can someone tell me where I can find more info on this Rosatrice theory? As in, the general gist of it, why it makes sense, etc etc.

I was pretty sure that R07 left no room for doubt about "Shkanontrice" but I was surprised to see that people are denying it? So, I'd like to see what all this is about.

>>11294748
>I was pretty sure that R07 left no room for doubt about "Shkanontrice" but I was surprised to see that people are denying it? So, I'd like to see what all this is about.
Could you be any more of a goat?

>>11294748
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHMta4YbjSM
Enjoy wasting 8 hours of your life.

>>11294771
I wasn't saying that I necessarily have any problem with denying it. However, there were many parts that at least implied it, and I'm not aware of a solution to the EP6 logic error other than it.

>>11294776
>and I'm not aware of a solution to the EP6 logic error other than it.
Oh the solution to the logic error is easy. See >>11294773

>>11294788
not him but i'm really curious about the solution and god damn if i'm going to sit through a 2 hour and 40 minute youtube video for the answer

>>11294858
>2 hour and 40 minutes
There's four videos in total. It's closer to 8-9 hours. The last hour and a half isn't really worth watching though. It's just some Ange and Meta world stuff unrelated to Rosatrice.

>>11294858
Well tough shit faggot, it won't make sense if I type it out. He has to `demolish' Shkanon first, then builds everything off of that.

It's a pretty easy video to watch. If I can be allowed to sound like a disgusting homo (like Yasu) for a moment: his accent is pretty smooth and his delivery style is not unpleasant to listen to. He does get a bit obnoxious at parts though, such as when he decides to go full anti-fantasy and not even allow the scene where Maria tortures Rosa to be a dream.

honestly I think 07's art is pretty charming and you only think the remake has nicer art because it's easier to masturbate to.

>>11294978
Higurashi art was best. Umineko was okay. Higanbana is garbage.

>>11294968
>his accent is pretty smooth and his delivery style is not unpleasant to listen to.
Dutchfag pls. We know you browse /jp/, but don't make it so obvious next time.
>>11294858
Long story short.
>Use of the term 'person' in the red text does not allow Shannon and Kanon to be the same person without some serious twisting of definitions as the numbers just don't add up
>Yasu is an extension of Rosa's personality, much like Beatrice is, due to the guilt she has over Beatrice falling to her death just as Yasu did.
>George wants to kill his whole family so he can be with Shannon and not have to work a day in his life
>Rosa and George killing everyone fits a hell of a lot better through games 1-5 than Shannon killing everyone does
That's it in a nutshell, really.

>>11295022
Judging by their translation speed, the new touhou will be fully translated by the time I wake up tomorrow. Goodnight /jp/

>>11295033
Wait... wrong thread.

>>11295022
>Dutchfag pls.
I'm not. The only Dutch person I like is Mara, honest. I'm just saying that it would be a lot harder to listen to an Brazilian or American or something. I'm also not gay. I like girls. Leave me alone.

>>11295044
>I'm also not gay. I like girls.
Nobody said anything about sexuality anon.

>>11295022
Who are you quoting?

>>11294968
>allowed to sound like a disgusting homo (like Yasu)

oh my

>>11285083
I think this is the basis of all anti-Yasu theories

Higanbana 2 translation is at 77%. So psyched.

>>11294985
You didn't enjoy all the photoshop filters?

>>11292476
Yasu is the original

Yasu creates imaginary friends to ease his loneliness

One of the imaginary friends was Shannon
After Yasu decides to be a witch, the real Yasu becomes Shannon and the trickster and prankster Yasu becomes Beatrice.

Note: Yasu does not have DID. All personalities of Yasu are the same person. Shannon and Beatrice are just different roles. They are characters made up in Yasu's mind and Yasu plays out the characters.

Yasu falls in love as Shannon with Battler then rewrites Beatrice's character to be the one in love with Battler instead of Shannon.

Yasu creates the Kanon character to help Shannon forget about Battler and to protect her.

The Kanon character is closer to Yasu's original self than Shannon. In Umineko, everything points towards Kanon being Beatrice.

Yasu never talks to himself. Anytime you see Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice talking among themselves, it's inner conflict. At EP2 when Beatrice goes berserk on Shannon, it was Yasu breaking down. Mixed feelings, about whether to kill George and continue the game or to stop and try to salvge what was remaining. Yasu actually commits suicide there after killing George in that episode.

All scenes that show Shannon and Kanon together with people are fantasy. You're not being shown exactly what happened. You're seeing a distorted version of the truth. Just like with the explicit fantasy scenes.

>>11296939
>All personalities of Yasu are the same person.

>Six people are dead said in red game three, including Kanon and Shanon
Disproved. Rosa is Beatrice.

>>11296960
Shannon and Kanon are seen and acknowledged by the characters as different people. If you were to disguise yourself and call yourself someone else, then by Umineko's rules, you would be considered a different person. That's how Umineko works.

Because Shannon and Kanon are just characters made up in Yasu's mind, Yasu can kill off the characters anytime and the red truth can be used to say they died. The red truth is word play.

>>11296994
>If you were to disguise yourself and call yourself someone else, then by Umineko's rules, you would be considered a different person. That's how Umineko works.
In the fourth episode Beatrice says there are no more than 17 people on Rokkenjima. Shannon's various personalities add up to more than 17. Disproved.

>>11297018
Don't forget that the word person is defined as 'a body' by Erika.

>>11297018
That red truth can be used because in the story Yasu only uses Kanon and Shannon as the characters on the game board. The only game Yasu put the Beatrice character on the board was EP4 and that was after someone already died.

The red truth isn't counting the total number of characters in Yasu's mind, it only counts the ones present and acknowledged. Which are Kanon and Shannon

>>11297032
>The only game Yasu put the Beatrice character on the board was EP4 and that was after someone already died.
Beatrice says this in episode 4.
>someone died
If it didn't include the dead Beatrice could say "There are no more than 10 people on Rokkenjima". They're including the dead in their calculations. Disproved.

Also >>11297027

>>11297027
Only for that statement. The red truth is context sensitive. Unless it was said in red that "the word "body" always refers to x" then you have no argument.

The red truth isn't supposed to be the end all. The red truth can contain half-lies. It all depends on interpretation. Beatrice says in red during EP4 about being the golden witch and that her magic can be only be used. Does that mean magic exists? No. The word magic is open to interpretation.

>>11297040
inb4 'persons means different things in different contexts'.
>>11297063
>The red truth is context sensitive. Unless it was said in red that "the word "body" always refers to x" then you have no argument.
Oh wait... in after.
When you have to twist the red truth that much to fit with your established theory then it isn't viable. I could make a similar argument for Eva being the killer by saying whenever it is said that Eva is dead in red it's just Eva-Beatrice killing off her Eva personality and it fits just as well. You're starting with the theory and trying to manipulate the red to make sense with that theory. With enough twisting, even my Gohdatrice theory fits because "HURR THE RED TRUTH ISN'T THE END ALL"

Rosatrice doesn't require such twisting, therefore it is the superior theory.

>>11297063
Explain why Eva kills Battler in the third game.

>>11297075
EP6 makes it pretty clear, the red truth is all about twisting. Erika having to go through and specifically define what every word or phrase meant. It's nothing but word games. You can't take any red truth at face value. Ryukishi even makes fun of people in EP8 that only believe in the red truth.

The problem with the Rostatrice theory is that it ignores the vast majority of the story and it assumes that Ryukishi is lying in his interviews. Beatrice wrote EP1 and EP2. It would make no sense if Rosa was Beatrice because EP1 and EP2 tell almost nothing of her. What is the entirety of EP2 about? Shannon, Kanon, Beatrice and the word furniture. Everything about Umineko, it's story and central theme is all centered around Yasu not Rosa.

>>11297099
There's nothing to explain. Eva found the gold and killed out of greed. She didn't kill everyone though. Yasu's game was never over because Eva didn't tell the others that she found the gold.

Ryukishi07 must have had fun putting all these in

>>11297155
>EP6 makes it pretty clear, the red truth is all about twisting. Erika having to go through and specifically define what every word or phrase meant. It's nothing but word games. You can't take any red truth at face value. Ryukishi even makes fun of people in EP8 that only believe in the red truth.
You still can't outright lie with it. For Shkanontrice to work you need to assume they are using different definitions for 'person' when there is nothing in the story to suggest this is the case. There is no evidence for it. Again, starting with the theory. You have the cart before the horse.
>The problem with the Rostatrice theory is that it ignores the vast majority of the story
Rosatrice doesn't do this.
>and it assumes that Ryukishi is lying in his interviews
Ryukishi IS lying in interviews. He doesn't want people to work out the solution.
>Shannon, Kanon, Beatrice and the word furniture
The word 'furniture' applies to their social status as servants, nothing more. Genji also refers to himself as furniture and he isn't a transvestite. All of the witches servants including Sakutaru are referred to as furniture.
>Everything about Umineko, it's story and central theme is all centered around Yasu not Rosa.
Rosatrice doesn't deny Yasu at all. You don't understand the theory at all.
>>11297166
Eva isn't the killer in the third game. You assume she kills George, which she would never do. It's said in red she can't kill Nanjo. The people she did kill, namely Krauss and Natsuhi, is referred to by Will as being "killed by the obvious culprit" whereas nowhere else in his explanation of the third game does he use the term 'obvious culprit'. Furthermore, when Ange reads what happened in the third game, she rejects it because she doesn't want to accept her hatred of Eva was unjustified.

All the people working under Yasu telling Battler Beatrice exists and is here. What a coincidence.

>>11297206
Sure does make perfect sense.

>>11297202
No, I said "she didn't kill everyone though"

Eva did not kill George. Yasu did. Yasu's game was not over. Yasu was still killing.

Eva did kill people but not everyone. EP7's tea party confirms that Eva is capable of committing murder. Kyrie tells Eva that she would've done the same if given the chance. And the narrative goes on about how the theatergoers would know this.

>>11297212
You're assuming that Kanon and Shannon are always on schedule. They aren't. It's not as easy to spot someone in disguise as you might think. Normal people don't jump to the conclusion "those two look alike so they must be the same person"

>>11297224
>Yasu did. Yasu's game was not over. Yasu was still killing.
'Yasu''s game was over the moment Eva solved the epitaph. That was the rule Yasu was acting under, one she obliged in the 7th and 5th games.

Also, how did Eva know about the bomb on the island and the Kuwadorian mansion? Shannon wasn't there to tell her, Shannon was dead or pretending to be dead. Yet in the meta-world Beatrice gave up her powers to Eva in a similar way to what happens in episode 7. And in the real world, Eva knew of the bomb and of the Kuwadorian mansion. How could she have possibly known...? Wait... wasn't someone there to meet her after she solved the epitaph? Someone who conveniently managed to solve it just a little too late?
>>11297235
>You're assuming that Kanon and Shannon are always on schedule. They aren't.
I'm certain at some point in their three year history Natsuhi would've had them on the same schedule together.

>>11297235
And guess who controls all the servant schedules?

Genji

The one that considers Yasu to be the true master. Totally inconceivable that Genji would create schedules favorable for Yasu. Shannon is comforted by Kanon. By denying Kanon's existence, you hurt Shannon.

>>11297245
>And guess who controls all the servant schedules?
>Genji
Actually it's said several times that Natsuhi is the one who controls the servant shifts.

>>11297256
>It's said that Genji usually takes care of it.
Not once is it ever said this. Natsuhi controls the mansion schedule.

>>11297250
It's said that Genji usually takes care of it.

On occasion Natsuhi or Krauss can order a change and they'll obey.

>Shkanonfags in charge of burying their heads in the sand
There's no point even arguing with them. There's no group of people on /jp/ more retarded.

>>11297258
Reread EP7.

Said Genji handles the servant matters.

The family conference is a special day. That's most likely when Natsuhi or Krauss would have a specific request.

>>11297264
>Reread EP7.
Re-read practically every scene with Natsuhi, Shannon and Kanon together. Every scene has Kanon and Shannon bickering about Natsuhi's schedule. You're a retard. Also, even if Shkanontrice were true, Kanon had been at the mansion for several years prior to Yasu solving the epitaph.

>>11297278
>The family conference is a special day. That's most likely when Natsuhi or Krauss would have a specific request.

Hey Shkanonfag. Eva can't be the killer in the third game. Why did Eva kill Battler, huh? How did she know about Kuwadorian, huh?

>>11297284
Except flashbacks occur on days other than the family conference, but keep trying.

>>11297278
We don't know for certain if anybody else at the mansion knew of Kanon before Yasu solved the epitaph. Kanon did exist in Yasu's mind then but there's no evidence that Kanon existed to anybody else.

>>11297287
a couple scenes here and there don't prove anything. There can be exceptions. It's said in EP7 that Genji usually handles all the servant schedules. Now unless that was a lie, then every time Natsuhi scheduled Shannon or Kanon to do something, that was an exception to the rule.

>>11297300
>Kanon did exist in Yasu's mind then but there's no evidence that Kanon existed to anybody else.
We have no evidence that Kanon DIDN'T exist to anybody else either. Once again Shkanonfags have to fall back blatant assumptions for which there is nothing to suggest.

Tell me, in episode 4, how did Beatrice appear in Rosa's house after Rosa killed Sakutaro after previously saying she can only appear on Rokkenjima with no explanation? How come Rosa seems oblivious to the fact Shannon appears in her house and destroys her belongings?

>>11297155
Maria hands Kanon a halloween sucker
Kanon thinks about it giving it back after Rosa smashed the other
Beatrice later "magically" repairs Maria's (gives her another and says it's the same)

>>11297315
She didn't. That Beatrice was all in Maria's head. Maria imagined that Beatrice was there to protect her.

Because no one in Umineko ever creates an imaginary friend inside their head. Especially not Maria.

>>11297342
Rosa buys several halloween suckers.
Rosa destroys Maria's halloween sucker.
Rosa still has several left over and almost always shows regret after being abusive to Maria.
Maria refers to Rosa as a 'bad witch' when she gets abusive and as 'the good witch Beatrice' when Rosa is nice.
Rosa later 'magically' repairs Maria's.

>>11297353
>That Beatrice was all in Maria's head. Maria imagined that Beatrice was there to protect her.
HURR UMINEKO WAS ALL IN EVERYONES HEADS IM A RETARD.

Maria wouldn't've have imagined Beatrice there because Beatrice says she can only appear on Rokkenjima and Maria always respects the rules of magic. Also, Rosa just ignores Maria going around destroying her stuff with her imaginary friend? I doubt it. Maria's imaginary Beatrice there to 'protect her' tells her its impossible for Sakutaro to come back to life? Again, I doubt it.

>>11297355
Then explain
>>11297206
>>11297182
>>11297192
>>11297155

Kanon was the only around Kinzo. Yet Beatrice kept saying that she was right in front of him but couldn't see her. Rosa was nowhere on the island.

>>11297362
Maria isn't an idiot. She's knows the difference between imaginary and real. The real Beatrice only appears in Rokkenjima.

>>11297375
In all of those pictures except one Rosa was on the island. In the picture with Kanon there is no evidence Rosa wasn't on the island. Eva herself would regularly come to the island to visit. Why wouldn't Rosa?
>>11297380
>Maria isn't an idiot. She's knows the difference between imaginary and real.
The girl who believes in witches knows the difference between what's real and imaginary? Yeah, definitely
>The real Beatrice only appears in Rokkenjima.
There is nothing to suggest Maria doesn't consider this Beatrice real. The Beatrice on Rokkenjima also reinforces that Sakutaro can't come back to life even though Shannon could've repaired Sakutaro easily if she wanted. Also you're ignoring why Rosa would just let Maria destroy her belongings with her imaginary friend.

>The girl who believes in witches knows the difference between what's real and imaginary? Yeah, definitely

You have no heart. You can't hope to understand Umineko. Maria knows witches don't exist. But she forces herself to believe it. The whole reason she gets so upset is because she knows the truth and you're forcing her to face it.

>>11297202
>The word 'furniture' applies to their social status as servants, nothing more.

Holy crap you're dumb. Episode 2 makes it blindingly obvious that "Furniture" is not in any way tied to social status. The story tells of a time before Shannon knew she was furniture. Tell me, how can a person working as a servant for pretty much her entire life have such a time if furniture=servant? In Episode 2 when Eva told Shannon to "know her place" why did she just call her a servant instead of furniture if furniture=servant?

Also, if it was just a class difference, *why do Shannon and Kanon think their loves can not succeed?* The story repeatedly points out that George, Jessica, and pretty much everybody not named Eva or Natsuhi does not care about that. George, in particular, is portrayed as one who will fight to the bitter end against his family for Shannon. The "class difference" issue is one that is discussed in the story and George and Jessica say they're willing to fight against it. It is in the end, nothing that would stop their love.

Yet Shannon and Kanon still think it'll fail, because they're furniture. Because being "furniture" is absolutely not about being a servant. It's about a person hating themselves for the body they've been cursed with.

Finally, Yasu didn't start calling herself furniture until *after she had solved the epitaph.* She literally didn't start until she stopped being a servant.

>>11297391
Maria says countless times that she only meets Beatrice is on Rokkenjima. This disproves any theory that Rosa pretends to be Beatrice elsewhere.

It's pretty pointless to argue against an idiot who insists on relying solely on exact semantics in a game that's been fucking translated from a foreign language and where the puzzles are established to be based on subjective wordplay.

>>11297410
Not to mention Jessica outright asks Kanon if furniture means servant and he tells her no.

It's becoming pretty obvious that this anon hates Shkanontrice mostly based on his own gay panic, though.

>>11297410
>Episode 2 makes it blindingly obvious that "Furniture" is not in any way tied to social status.
If Furniture means "my genitals are mauled" then why does Genji say say he's furniture?
>>11297415
Post a screencap. The only person who says Beatrice can only be on Rokkenjima is Beatrice herself.

>>11297426
Genji only calls himself furniture in fantasy scenes.

The fantasy definition of furniture is someone made by Kinzo that has magical powers.

>>11297426
>If Furniture means "my genitals are mauled" then why does Genji say say he's furniture?

Furniture is adapted in fantasy usage to mean "someone who's subhuman," and Genji plays along with Yasu's fantasies. If you want a more exact reason, think more carefully about Ronove's portrayal, and Genji's most important relationship.

>>11297433
>Not to mention Jessica outright asks Kanon if furniture means servant and he tells her no.
Answer why Genji says he's furniture. Why do the seven stakes of purgatory say their furniture? Why is half the fucking cast 'furniture'? Huh?! HUH?! You're ignoring half the story you incompetent retard.
>>11297445
>Genji only calls himself furniture in fantasy scenes.
IT'S ALL MAKE BELIEVE EVERYONE. THERE IS NO ANSWER TO UMINEKO.

>>11297391
> In the picture with Kanon there is no evidence Rosa wasn't on the island. Eva herself would regularly come to the island to visit. Why wouldn't Rosa?

You need evidence to prove something, not to disprove it. If you say Rosa was on the island, then there must be evidence to support that. Nowhere in the entire chapter is Rosa seen or mentioned.

>>11297451
called it
>>11292493

>>11297202
Rosa creating an imaginary personality to take on your guilt for killing Kuwadorian Beatrice is one thing; I can see that. But making that imaginary persona into a version of Lion that survived the fall from the cliff? Imagining an absurdly detailed life for it as a servant in the Ushiromiya mansion that has absolutely nothing to do with Rosa's life or her guilt for killing the Kuwadorian Beatrice? How does this even make any sense at all!? Maybe you could accept it in a broad way with only vague memories of the episode, but it can't possibly stand up to an actual critical reading of Yasu's story itself.

What's even the point of all those little details in Yasu's story that Rosa would have absolutely no reason to invent? Why does Rosa's imaginary guilt-persona have three years knocked off her age (coincidentally the difference between Shannon and Lion's ages)? Why is her life based around the life of a servant in the Ushiromiya mansion? Why is she portrayed as helping a fully matured Shannon during a time when Shannon should still be a kid? Why was Shannon even accepted as a servant at the age of six anyway, if she's just a normal servant and not Beatrice's daughter according to KNM? A huge deal is made of how weird it is for a servant that young to be accepted! What about the part where Genji intentionally gives Yasu a hint so that she will solve the epitaph? It makes sense if Yasu is Beatrice's daughter, but there's nothing special about Rosa, so why would Genji want her in particular to be the head?

>>11297315
>Tell me, in episode 4, how did Beatrice appear in Rosa's house after Rosa killed Sakutaro after previously saying she can only appear on Rokkenjima with no explanation?

Maria used a phone to call Beato.

>>11297451
>Why do the seven stakes of purgatory say their furniture?

Because they're clearly not fantasy characters, using the fantasy definition.

>>11297473
>If you say Rosa was on the island, then there must be evidence to support that.
Siblings regularly visit. That provides reasonable evidence to assume Rosa could've been on the island. Or, perhaps I'll use your key argument and say IT NEVER HAPPENED IT WAS ALL MAKE BELIEVE. Whichever you like.
>>11297482
>Imagining an absurdly detailed life for it as a servant in the Ushiromiya mansion that has absolutely nothing to do with Rosa's life or her guilt for killing the Kuwadorian Beatrice?
No matter what theory you believe Yasu's life isn't 'absurdly detailed'. It's vague at best.

>>11297482
And how is Rosatrice even meant to have formed such a bond with Shannon anyway? She only comes to the island a few times a year! And yet she's so attached to Shannon that she bases her weird inexplicable imaginary persona off of her and somehow helps her to find love with George? And why are Beatrice's closest friends Ronove and Virgilia based on Genji and Kumasawa, people who SHANNON would be close to, not Rosa? How can any of Yasu's story even make sense if you try to interpret it as Rosa's? All the stuff about Yasu's interactions with the other servants, and learning about mystery novels from Kumasawa, and trying to help with the chores despite really being too young, why is Rosa imagining all this? What does any of it mean to her? You can see where I'm coming from when I say KNM is insane for believing this stuff!

I'm also interested in how KNM's theory could ever account for that one line from Will in EP7; when describing the things that the culprit needed before they would be capable of committing the crime, one of them is "a system for gaining different accomplices for each crime; it is simple to conclude that the culprit had access to a large amount of money". I don't know how KNM can continue to believe that there aren't episode-specific accomplices that are bribed with the gold when this line flat-out states it.

>>11297492
Yes, siblings do visit but there has to be somewhere in the chapter that hints towards Rosa being there. There isn't one because she wasn't there. Rosatrice is denied. It's not the answer Ryukishi wrote Umineko in mind.

I get that you hate Shkanon and think it's stupid. That's fine. But you still have to accept that it's the official answer. If you want to believe in an alternate answer, that's fine. As long as you acknowledge that it's not the official one; The one the entire visual novel is written around.

>>11297493
Your blatant ignorances about the theory show you know nothing about it. Your strawman is unbelievable. Go watch the youtube series. It should be compulsory viewing before entering this discussion, but then again ,if it was compulsory viewing, no one would be here discussing it as everyone would believe Rosatrice.

>>11297018
>In the fourth episode Beatrice says there are no more than 17 people on Rokkenjima

But Erika is the 18th human.

But wait, even if she's on Rokkenjima, there are 17 people.

How does that work?!

>>11297517
>Yes, siblings do visit but there has to be somewhere in the chapter that hints towards Rosa being there. There isn't one because she wasn't there. Rosatrice is denied.

IT'S TOTALLY ACCEPTABLE TO BELIEVE EVERYTHING IN THE SHKANON THEORY BASED ON THE MOST CONTRIVED OF EVIDENCES BUT IF THERE ISN'T COMPLETE AND UTTER CONCLUSIVE PROOF OF THIS PART OF THE ROSATRICE THEORY THE ENTIRE THEORY FALLS APART
>>11297521
Erika doesn't exist.

>>11297521
This actually gets explained in the EP8 manga. Erika and Beatrice were using two different definitions for the word people.

>>11297521
Why would the red text destroy Erika if it was referring to the Shkanon theory. This is the red text that kills Erika. It's not confirming Shkanon, it's denying Erika's existence.

>>11297528
Almost like your insistent on the way a single usage of the term "people" destroys the Yasu theory, even though it's established over and over that the red text is subjective and context-dependent, the visual novel was translated from a foreign language.

Dear anons, would any of you be kind enough to remind me in which part exactly it is said that Kanon = Shannon = Yasu, or whatever? I haven't read Umineko in a long while, so my mind is a bit hazy. I do remember something being said in EP7 that Beatrice = Shannon = Yasu, but nothing about Kanon. Oh well, maybe I'll just re-read EP7 anyway.

>>11297550
The red text is objective, not subjective. It's dependent on context definitely, but it's objective. It can be used to tell half truths, but it must always be telling the truth.

>>11297553
There is no part in Umineko where anyone is confirmed to be Beatrice.

>>11297548
Erika was dying anyway because she failed to solve the closed room. That last battle finishes her off because it confirms she can't solve the mystery.

>>11297528
Erika does exist in the stories of Ep5 and 6. There's plenty of red text referring to her existence.

She raises the person count by one, is the 18th human, yet even with her there, there are only 17 people.

>>11297565
Doesn't change the fact that this red text is the final nail in the coffin. Why would a red text that acknowledges her, as the Shkanon theory would, be the one to destroy her as opposed to one that denies her?

>>11297566
>Erika does exist in the stories of Ep5 and 6.
She exists on the gameboard. Not on Rokkenjima prime.

>>11297560
>The red text is objective, not subjective
>You are incompetent!
Yeah, so objective.

And you realize that "context-dependent" means "the meaning is different depending on the situation," right?

The fact that Shkanonfags need to search for alternate explanations to interpret the red truth just goes to show how weak their theory is. You never see Rosatricefags arguing over the red because the red supports their theory entirely. The only stuff Rosatricefags have against them is shit that isn't said in red, like the Yasu story.

>>11297569
Because she couldn't solve the seeming contradiction of her simultaneously being the 18th human and the 17th person.

>>11297562
Who restores chick Beato's memories of Beatrice. Letting her revive as the golden witch?

Kanon.

Coincidence, right?

>>11297577
>Yeah, so objective.
Battler, in that instant, was incompetent.
>And you realize that "context-dependent" means "the meaning is different depending on the situation," right?
Yep. It depends on the situation, but it is still objective within that situation.

>>11297569

Why would a failure to solve the Kanon closed room inflict a fatal wound on her in the first place? The solution must involve Erika dying! You're a moron.

>>11297580
She isn't called the 17th human. It's said that if she joins them, there will be 17 humans. Completely different.

>>11297582

In EP2 it's stated that only Shannon and Kanon are able to see Beatrice at first, no one else. But I'm sure that means nothing.

>>11297588
>Why would a failure to solve the Kanon closed room inflict a fatal wound on her in the first place?
Because Bernkastel.

>>11297579
Instead Rosatrace believers have to argue and make stupid assumptions over every little scene that foreshadows Kanon being Beatrice.

ROSA WAS TOTALLY ON THE ISLAND. THERE WAS NO SCENE OF HERE BEING THERE, BUT SHE TOTALLY WAS.

At least they do better than KnownNoMore. He'd just dismiss them all as "deceptions"

>>11297592
"Hi, pleased to meet you! I am Furudo Erika, the detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please, welcome me!!
I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!"

"Even if you do join us-
There are 17 people."

>>11297602
>He'd just dismiss them all as "deceptions"
That's exactly what they are though. In a novel about a meta world and deceptions, do you really think it's such a stretch that R07 would operate on the same frame of mind?

> The only stuff Rosatricefags have against them is shit that isn't said in red, like the Yasu story.

What a dumb goat you are. Only trusting the red. Ryukishi was right to make fun of you.

>>11297607
Thanks for confirming what i just said.

>>11297613
You're right. It was all magic. Everyone can go home now.

>>11297613

Shut up, only a handful of statements made in a different color matter in this story. The narrative, themes, and character development mean nothing. Yasu is gross and makes me feel uncomfortable because it means Beatrice is gay or something, I mean ew, so I need to find a different solution for my own peace of mind. Obviously a brilliant earthshattering truth like "Rosa killed everyone because she was crazy from guilt," which isn't a boring answer and motivation at all, is worthy to create this opus around and then conceal it so thoroughly that only .000001% of my audience will get it. And definitely none of my native audience in Japan who actually read the language I wrote my novel in.

>>11297562

And Kanon? D: Anyway, I am finding trouble realising why some people think Someone must = another someone in Umineko. All that stuff from EP7, I just saw it as the concept that gave birth to the Golden Witch Beatrice. But not necessarily that it's all the same person. Ah well, maybe I'll just go ahead and re-read anyway.

>>11297632
le strawman face

>>11297614
But it's not.

She's the 18th human, but the 17th person.

Why did she call herself "human" but Battler and Beato called her a "person"?

It's almost like there are different numbers of "humans" or "people" depending on the definition you're using!

>>11297639
She calls herself the 18th human because she's seeking confirmation of acceptance. That's also why it's phrased as an introduction. She doesn't say she's the 18th human in red, therefore she cannot conclusively be the 18th human.

>>11297646
> She doesn't say she's the 18th human in red

Yes she does.

>>11297656
Oh, right, she does.
In that case I fall back on KnownNoMore's theory.

>>11297656
But then she got denied! Tough luck for Erika.

>>11297662
That's a losing battle since he's an idiot.

Protip, a corpse can't put duct-tape on windows or doors.

>>11297670
>>11297670
>Protip, a corpse can't put duct-tape on windows or doors.
Erika isn't a corpse in the sixth game, but she is on Rokkenjima prime. What's hard to understand about that?

>>11297675
"Rokkenjima prime" is pretty irrelevant though. The mysteries we're asked to solve are the ones on the gameboard. Any information we get from the "real world" is just to give further clues to help solve the gameboards.

>>11297506
>Erika killed Kanon in the closet, that's why he's no longer there

>Ignores the fact that the game was suspended after Erika entered the room and before checking the closet. Piece Erika is unable to act because the game is frozen. Which she specifically requested.

>Implying Erika is dumb enough that she'd be shocked that Kanon is dead (no longer there) after just killing him.

KnownNoMore everyone.

>>11297680
>The mysteries we're asked to solve are the ones on the gameboard. Any information we get from the "real world" is just to give further clues to help solve the gameboards.
Okay. Are you supposed to be countering me with that?

Bottom line of this discussion is: Ryukishi07 won. What he wanted from the beginning was to make people discuss and theorize about what happened. Well, that and perhaps he wanted people to understand his message.

>>11297686
>Erika was paused

>not being able to separate the meta world from the actual eventsa