/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>kana
Whoa show down there, champ. Most of are still learning how to use to romaji, not all of us are masters at Japanese like you.

>>11007921
i haven't learnt it yet, i wanna know around how long it'll take.

Why would it take you more than a day to memorize that chart?

2 days.
http://www.realkana.com/
Delete your thread.

I used Heisig's book, so it took 6 hours like it says on the cover.

Hehe.

If you dedicate yourself, you should be able to read them fluently in about a week, but that means you need to dedicate yourself and not posting on /jp/ like a loser.

>>11007968
so most of the people claiming the did it in 1 day are bullshitting?

>>11007973
They probably are.

>>11007973
They probably just memorized the chart. It takes more practice to be able to read at a moderate rate than just 8-10 hours of memorizing.

>>11007973
Not him. You can learn them very quickly, in a matter of hours. It will take you longer to read them fluently, like you can with your native writing system. I don't think you'll be able to do that in a week. You'll have to use them for a while.

>>11007984
Not everyone is as dumb as you, thankfully.

>>11007998
>Not everyone is as dumb as you, thankfully.
Say that to my face mothefucker, not online and see what happens you faggot.

How can the average /jp/sie manage to learn kana in 2 hours but can't even manage to learn the joyou kanji in ∞ hours?

>>11008163
They give up quickly

>>11008163

kanji is hard

>>11008189
except the jouyou ones

>>11008163
I learned 3,000 kanji in a month. Speak for yourself, loser.

>>11008208
>learned
I bet you can't even manage to write 木

>>11008218
No, I learned to write them all, idiot. Learned the readings the next month. So 2 months if you want to be picky. RTK 1, 2, and 3 at 100 a day, SRS'd.

>>11008189

No. Just time consuming.

>>11008240
Cool, you learned the habitat of every animal of the zoo but don't know the name of a single one.

>>11008277
Where are you going with this? He said he learned the readings.

>>11008240
嘘しちゃのは駄目

A few hours. Just tap into your forced autismal powers.

How long did it take you to become Japanese?

>>11008354
I was born Japanese, by spirit

>>11008354
I'm a japanese person in a white body.

>>11008343
But he said he learned the readings after learning all the 3000 kanji.

>>11008401
And? In two months I learned to write 3,000 kanji, their meanings, readings, and over 5,000 words. What's your point?

>>11008401
And...? It took him the same amount of time to learn them that way than if he would have learned them as he went.

>>11008343
>>11008412
Anti-RTK retards here have some kind of aversion to splitting up writing/meaning and reading, so that even if you learn all of them quickly, you apparently did something wrong because your method isn't retard approved. The only "correct" way is to go straight to vocab so I hear.

>>11007910
Three days, and I definitely wasn't studying them for even the majority of those three days. Stop making excuses and just do it.

>>11007973
1 day means 1 full day of work.

a day

I tried to learn the kana several times.

I'd study them for like an hour or two every day for a week or two, and then i'd be able to identify the majority of them, and then i'd forget about it and by the time a week passed, I'd forgotten most of them.

I've done this a few times, and I think I can identify like 30% of kana. I'm pretty much retarded though, so that's just me.

I haven't finished learning the kana, but I have a vocabulary of five hundred words or so.

I took a jap class during college.

they didn't care about us learning kana but I picked it up through class after ~3months

and this is just from being told what it is/seeing the chars in class

>>11009326
Just do 100 or 200 realkana EVERY DAY. They'll stick eventually

>>11009342
>I took a jap class during college.
>they didn't care about us learning kana

Why are Japanese classes so terrible?

There's a difference between remembering them, and knowing them.

I learned them in a few hours.

It took me a few years to be able to read them at normal speed.

>>11009326
If you haven't tried it, use Heisig's book so you'll have mnemonics to fall back on.

4 hours.

>>11009395

>teach you to actually speak
>ignore learning how to read shit no one cares about

yeah, useless.

Reminder for EU players to not play in the next 40 minutes.

The x3 event doesn't start until then, but the daily doubles kicked in 20 minutes ago.

too me about a week of repeated flashcard run throughs. mnemonics very effective with kana as opposed to kanji.

now I can read very fast. when writing I still mix up hiragana and katakana though.

>>11009308
What's the difference between the white bar alphabet and the black bar alphabet?

>>11009427
Epic trolling dood.

>>11009427

It is pretty useless when you'll likely end up with something little better than a mental phrasebook, and the vocabulary of a 3 year old.

>>11009446

White is hiragana, black is katakana.

>>11009446
White is hiragana, used for writing Japanese words, particles, suffixes.

Black is katakana, used for writing foreign words, onomatopoeia, emphasis, certain other words.

Highschool Japanese class 1st semester we learned katakana and basic speech. Second semester we started hiragana and more complex speech. It was pretty easy.
Now the second year is when we got into a few hundred kanji and were doing skits, this was much harder.
Third year was same as second year except we started doing translation work, this was also the year we took a trip to Japan.
Fourth year I dropped it because a new teacher was hired.

I'm surprised whenever anons talk about there Japanese classes being awful. By the end of fourth year I probably would have been doing novel translation. Too bad I gave up on learning after... Its been 2 years since I studied and I forgot quite a bit. Such a waste of time

>>11009474
>1st semester we learned katakana... Second semester we started hiragana...

One year for something people can do by themselves in a few hours.

>Now the second year is when we got into a few hundred kanji

A year for a few hundred when people can learn 2-3,000 by themselves in a few months.

>>11009474

>By the end of fourth year I probably would have been doing novel translation.

I highly doubt that.

Well, you might be able to do it, with a dictionary, and months of time.

>>11009493
>people can learn 2-3,000 by themselves in a few months

but that's not true. inb4 liars.

>>11009538

Using spaced repetition, yes, it is possible.

I did around 2000 words, with kanji, in a few months, but plateaued.

Someone who isn't lazy as fuck could do 3000.

>>11009505
The 4th year at my school was translating novels. There were like 7 people in the class, and only 3 of them could actually understand what was being said to any meaningful extent. We translated about 3 chapters over the course of a semester (and they weren't long chapters). Formal classes are a joke.

>>11009538
This is what people who spent years with the traditional method actually think.

>>11009549
Spaced repetition and Adderall?

>>11009631
There are methods which don't use brute repetition and can teach you a kanji in 30 seconds to a minute or two each. Spending several hours a day working like this doesn't require drugs.

>>11009538
When I started my reps, I could recognize maybe 200-300. A month later, I was nearing 2000 (and mostly stopped adding new ones because grinding stops having a point at that moment). I'm not claiming full retainment or instant recognition by that point, but they're already perfectly usable in whatever you want to do with them afterwards (preferably reading Japanese).

kana took about 4 weeks, for both "alphabets". Reading and writing fluently took additional time but it was only about 5 hours a week practice for me so you can learn it a lot faster. Kanji on the other hand takes a lot longer, I've been studying for 2 years and I know about 150-200 Kanji (this includes most of the readings of them).

>>11009966
Congrats on knowing less than a Japanese second grader.

>>11009674
I learnt kanji that fast using brute repetition. There's nothing special about those "methods".

bout 40 mins.

>>11007921
You can learn kana before being able to write in roumaji.

>>11010065
There is for the vast majority of people.

>>11009985
A second grader actually knows a LOT of Japanese. Mostly spoken though; it just happens they don't know a lot of kanji and aren't terribly good at reading.

>>11010097
I just love how much PROS are always lurking those threads. Soon someone will state that he passed the whole 4 bigs in 1 month.

>>11010097
Didn't mean to quote you here >>11010158 sorry

>>11010176
I was confused for a bit.

4 - 5 hours with anki

Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck

I haven't done my reps in so long and I'm so fucking mad at myself

I posted in a thread a few months ago saying "I haven't done my reps in a few months now..." and asked/received a bit of advice but I didn't start doing them past that one day

My motivation to do anything is fading, but I still would like to learn japanese...

I think what made me feel most helpless is the grammar. Sure I can remember kanji like a monkey if given enough time, but when I realize I'm too stupid to pick up grammar concepts, I feel helpless.

>>11010367
Have you tried multiple sources for grammar? If one thing doesn't work, drop it and try other things until you find something that works for you.

>>11010508
I started with Tae Kim but it was too brief for me so I tried Genki, but things still just go over my head... It isn't even that genki is too fast, because it didn't seem that way, it's just I am very stupid and can't understand things even when reading over them quite a bit..

Six months.

>>11010529
There's plenty of other things to try. Take a look at Japanese the Manga Way:

http://www.mediafire.com/?wvwdkwrg15r5zhh

>>11010567

>>11010624
I am very stupid and am bad at remembering things and have no discipline. That's what happens

>>11010648

I don't think you got his reference, Anonymous.

>>11010692
OH! Oops

Four days.

>>11009308

stupid as fuck, some of those are viable though

5 days... Seriously...

I took my time. Learned them with namasensei. So I got rudimentary grammar and a bit of vocab too.

3 months

>>11007910
about 6 hours using some online flashcards

>>11009966
>I've been studying for 2 years and I know about 150-200 Kanji
Most retarded comment ever.

About two days, I got them down really quickly

after about two days of grinding i pretty much the basic Hiragana down, havent touched katakana yet and I need to work on recognizing those non-voiced sounds and stuff.
I hope it will work out soon, I'm generally really bad at learning languages.

I just wish there were a better way to learn kanji than flashcards...I just can't get motivated to do it at all.

>>11012294
Why? Sound pretty reasonable to me

>>11013477
Lol, welcome to the traditional method of spending years learning shit you could learn in a few months and with much less effort.

>>11013477
I've been studying for 2 months and know 1000.

>>11014556
>Look am me I'm doing so much better get on my level scrub

>>11014619
Exactly.

>>11007910
Two weeks to learn Hiragana, a week to learn Katakana.
Katakana took shorter because I already knew how kana worked by the time I got to it.

>>11014619
For adult learners there's no excuse for wasting years on the traditional method anymore, and there hasn't been for about 35 years now. People still doing this deserve to be ridiculed.

2 weekz

>>11014556
What exactly do you 'know' about each of them?

>>11011652
need something to go off of if you've never ventured out of the english alphabet before

>>11014888
Heisig's book has mnemonics that work, and he makes a good argument that using drawings like this is an impediment for your imagination and makes it harder for you to remember them.

>>11011728
Same here.

What are you guys' opinions on learning to write kanji? I feel like it's a good skill to know, but it's time-consuming and tedious, even with something like RTK. I feel like it's slowing down my progress a lot, which would be okay if there would be a payoff, but I don't plan on ever going to Japan and I doubt it's a skill I'll need at any point in the foreseeable future. I'm thinking about just dropping it and going through RTK the opposite way, basically. I think I could really speed through it like that. Thoughts?

Also I'd rather not argue about going straight to vocab. I've tried it and found it too hard to distinguish between kanji. I need to have a more concrete way to systematize them, like Heisig's keywords. I'll be going through all three volumes to make sure I get readings of course.

if you pathetic losers aren't lying and really can properly learn 2,000 of kanji in a few months, then why does it take japs ten years with constant daily exposure to them and the advantage of starting young when languages are easier/things are easier to remember?

you are all full of shit. maybe you can just about understand your chinese comics with guesswork and obvious context to help you, but there is no way your ridiculous claims of full recall, all readings and combinations are true. stop lying.

>>11015207
>if you pathetic losers aren't lying and really can properly learn 2,000 of kanji in a few months, then why does it take japs ten years with constant daily exposure to them and the advantage of starting young when languages are easier/things are easier to remember?

Because they have to start as children when they don't have the capabilities of abstraction necessary for using a system of mnemonic devices. Brute repetition is the only thing available, despite taking forever. Read the introduction to RTK1.

I don't understand mnemonics. I remember back when I was in school and we would have geography tests and my classmates would be sitting there trying to think of words that rhyme with tbilisi. if you can remember that wouldn't it just be easier to memorize the thing you're trying to learn?

>>11015269
Because you're trying to memorize the appearance and/or pronunciations of several thousand complex shapes that are in many instances extremely similar to one another.

>>11015269
You are in a concentration camp and the only way to get out is to get the code combination for your cell. You also want to free your buddies next to you but they have different codes (obviously). The padlock is not numbered but a futuristic stylus password input that the guard draws KANJI into it for the password. You aren't a weeb so you don't know kanji. Each day that goes by, you see the floor guard draw the codes for each of the cell members and you write what each radical looks like to you with a piece of chalk you found on the ground. When it is time to break free you need a plan of action to get out as fast as you can so you make up a mnemonic for you and the other jailed friends you have so you don't have to run back to your cell reference what you wrote.

>>11015207
>you can just about understand your chinese comics with guesswork and obvious context to help you

But that's exactly it. I don't think you understand what a gigantic step towards fluency going from "I can't even tell all that shit apart" to "I can now practice by simply reading stuff" is.

>why does it take japs ten years with constant daily exposure to them

Why does it take western children years to learn an alphabet?

>>11015298
yeah well it wasn't easy learning how to spell Ljubljana either but I don't see how having to remember something else on top of it is going to make it easier

>>11015308
Because the thing you're remembering "on top of it" informs you how to construct the character and distinguish it from others, rather than just having to brute memorize thousands of permutations of meaningless scribbles. You also seem to think that if someone knows a mnemonic, they've learned the object of the mnemonic separately from the mnemonic, which is not necessarily true. Often they mnemonic is needed to reproduce or distinguish the character, at least until the mnemonic drops away after prolonged experience.

>>11015305
think of thing > remember mnemonic > remember thing
vs
think of thing > remember thing

they tried to get us to use mnemonics to learn multiplication tables too. my father forced me to memorize them normally, and I was able to work faster because of it.

>>11015308
>>11015316
You're comparing dissimilar things. The mass failure rate of foreign learners when dealing with the traditional way of learning, coupled with the immense amount of time and effort needed to see it through, compared with the quickness and ease of mnemonic approaches bears out that there is a difference here.

>>11015316

The finger technique? I don't know how they do that but it works like magic.

>>11015318
All it tells you is that one of them is easier.

>>11015316
That tells you that one of them is easier, but that doesn't mean it has to be the superior method.

I learned 10k Kanji in about 2 days.

But seriously, I haven't studied it daily but I can read and write 38 Hiragana after about 1 week (1 hr a day). Not just look at it and think for a few seconds, but know it by heart and write it with good penmanship.

The mnemonics really help.

Kanji damage is a good website that you guys should check out.

>>11015343
imposiburu

>>11015339
Spelling of words: There is a phonetic component to work with here. Also you are dealing with your native alphabet. You aren't going out of thin air.

Multiplication tables: You can reconstruct the answers logically from lesser processes, such as addition. Again, not out of thin air.

Kanji: Neither applies. Why is cat 猫? Why is gloom 鬱? Why is green 緑? Why is frolic 戯? Repeat two to three thousand times. You're working with things that have no phonetic, visual, or logical referent to anything you're familiar with.

You're probably a troll so I don't know why I'm bothering to explain this. Do you even study Japanese at all? There are some people who actually work well with the tradition method but to deny the use to others of mnemonics in this area is nonsense.

>>11015318
remembering things is remembering things. how is language any different from geography or math?

when I wanted to learn numbers so I could play lucktiles I just looked at a chart for a couple minutes. learning that 六 = 6 wasn't any harder than rembering what 6 pin looks like so I don't have to sit there counting little dots every time I draw one.

>>11015368
>You're working with things that have no phonetic, visual, or logical referent to anything you're familiar with.

I'll clarify that some things do have a meaningful underpinning to them, but only once you've learned the component parts, and then you're basically working with mnemonics at that point if you're using that to remember them.

>>11015371
I explained here, troll: >>11015368

>>11015368
>Kanji: Neither applies. Why is cat 猫? Why is gloom 鬱? Why is green 緑? Why is frolic 戯? Repeat two to three thousand times. You're working with things that have no phonetic, visual, or logical referent to anything you're familiar with.
So familiarize yourself with the radicals.

>Do you even study Japanese at all? There are some people who actually work well with the tradition method but to deny the use to others of mnemonics in this area is nonsense.
I've learned Chinese. I'm learning Japanese. Nobody in this thread, as far as I can tell, has "denied people the use of mnemonics."

>>11015400
>So familiarize yourself with the radicals.

And then what do you do with those radicals? Do they just float in space somewhere or do you apply them in some meaningful way so that you can understand how the character is constructed? If the latter, welcome to mnemonics.

>>11015391
counting 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 is not the same as memorizing 3x4=12.

you're basically count the little sticks and dots on a tile instead of just memorizing what each one looks like.

>>11015418
Somebody who knows what "sub-" means and "marine" means will find it easier to remember what "submarine" means than someone who doesn't. This is a mnemonic technique, I suppose, but I assumed that a strategy that was less straightfoward was being employed.

>If the latter, welcome to mnemonics.
Does "dealing with your native alphabet" constitute using a mnemonic technique?

>>11015436
If you don't remember what 3x4 is, you can reconstruct the answer from adding 3+3+3+3 manually, is my point.

>>11015440
>but I assumed that a strategy that was less straightfoward was being employed.

The mnemonic employed in RTK for example, is to break the kanji down into their components parts (not necessarily radicals) and then use the meanings assigned to these parts to connect the meaning of the character to the way it is constructed. This is done through a brief story, basically, for most characters.

>Does "dealing with your native alphabet" constitute using a mnemonic technique?

Depends on how you're using them.

I love this thread. It just makes me feel good about myself. I just spent the last 10 minutes reading this and laughing to myself at how much better I am than everyone else here.

>>11015472
>The mnemonic employed in RTK for example, is to break the kanji down into their components parts (not necessarily radicals) and then use the meanings assigned to these parts to connect the meaning of the character to the way it is constructed. This is done through a brief story, basically, for most characters.
I guess this is a good a strategy as anything else since it has a solid basis in the way the character is constructed. Most of the mnemonic techniques I'm heard of seemed far more silly or arbitrary than that.

For myself, the radical serve more as reminders than anything else, I never consciously devised a strategy to recognize them. "That character has the animal radical in it. Right, that's cat" sort of thing.

>>11015478

stfu

someone's getting owned again

>>11015481
The other benefit of RTK, I forgot to mention, is that by learning the kanji in this manner, they're rearranged in an order that better facilitates learning, rather than being organized by frequency. So basically, a number of component parts (primitives) are introduced and you learn the kanji which can be built with them; then a new primitive is introduced and you learn whatever kanji can be built by the ones you know plus the new one, with the process repeated until the course is run. When a common primitive like 'person' is introduced the number of kanji you can quickly pick up from it is quite large. It speeds things up and eliminates the old "write it over and over until it sticks" entirely.

The downside of course is that it does not fit well with other studies, as the lack of frequency ordering causes some more common kanji to be learned later. I've never really felt this was a problem though due to the speed of the course.

>>11015472
>If you don't remember what 3x4 is, you can reconstruct the answer from adding 3+3+3+3 manually, is my point.
if you have to do addition you can't really say you've learned multiplying. like I said before, if you want to play lucktiles you have to memorize the pin and sou tiles the same way you do the man ones.

what's the point of having to memorize a story to remind me that 巨乳 means big tits when I can just memorize the runes themselves?

The problem with RTK/KD isn't mnemonics, it's just that people spend too long on them when they could be getting to reading faster. There's nothing wrong with mnemonics if they work for you, and it is certainly a good idea to use mnemonics to distinguish similar looking kanji. Just don't spend half a year learning mnemonics instead of the language.

Now stop arguing and get back to studying.

>>11015513

Boohoo mah 2 months of actual reading!

>>11015513
Yes if you are going to go through RTK you should get it out of the way quickly. It's a means to furthering your studies, not an end in itself.

>>11015508
>not learning by frequency
ok now you're being ridiculous

>>11015515
I explained why the other ordering is beneficial.

[shitposting intensifies]

>>11015509
>what's the point of having to memorize a story to remind me that 巨乳 means big tits when I can just memorize the runes themselves?

If there is no benefit of increased speed or recognition to you by using a mnemonic method then you shouldn't use it. Many people have immense difficulty with traditional methods and waste years on it if they don't quit altogether. They need something else.

>>11015519
being able to start reading sooner is far more beneficial than whatever you proposed. is japanese your first foreign language?

>>11015518
If you don't care about being efficient, why are you posting?

Why people always argue which method is the best? There is no objectively the best method for learning because different people learn effectively by different methods..

http://homeworktips.about.com/od/homeworkhelp/a/learningstyle.htm

>>11015525
I just don't understand how it's beneficial. the data has to be in your memory for the mnemonic to help you recall it. how is remembering 2 things easier than remembering one?

>>11015529
If you don't have the patience to or would get bored solving what amounts to a very long series of somewhat-illogical Chinese puzzles, then you should get to the reading faster.

If you don't mind doing so, though, it will make it far easier to expand your vocabulary once you do start reading.

>>11015531
You are the same person from the last thread so it is pointless trying to start a shitfest with you. see
>>11015525

>>11015529
Any head-start you have in reading is obviated by the continued necessity of learning kanji, or at the least running into kanji you don't know, which others have already completed (mostly).

>>11015541
Because the "one" alone is hard to remember and the "two" is easy to remember and produces the "one."

holyshit 2:43 am and I'm not tired. What did I drink?

>>11015541
If you only wanted to memorize one character then there would be no point, but if the mnemonic you use is "component recognition" then it can be easier since these components are widely reused.

>>11015538
Ah yes, about.com. Certainly the finest of sources.

But yes, anyone who listens to strangers on the internet over pursuing a method they feel is effective is retarded.

>>11015543
You already started the shitfest. I'm just commenting on your stupidity.

>>11015184
Anyone have thoughts on this, i.e. the necessity of learning to write?

>>11015509
>if you have to do addition you can't really say you've learned multiplying.

Yes, you can. That's precisely when you can say that you've learned multiplying. You know what it is and you know how to do it. All that's left is to speed up the process by memorization of the most commonly performed operations.

On the other hand, if someone memorizes that 3*4 = 12, but doesn't know where it came from...

>>11015559
>Ah yes, about.com. Certainly the finest of sources.
Lel man. You really haven't heard about different learning style theories? Have you been living in barrel or something? There are multiple studies about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_styles#Neil_Fleming.27s_VAK.2FVARK_model
You can check the references.

>>11015542
you can read a lot even with a limited vocabulary, and starting early gets you used to seeing words in context and using grammar. plus it's a lot easier to learn new words when it's in a sentence with words you already do know. I assume that most people start learning moon runes because they want to read something, so completing even an easy story will help motivate you.

is this your first foreign language? I always get the feeling that people learning japanese make things way harder for themselves than it needs to be by making mistakes that someone who's taken courses in a language before wouldn't.

>>11015580
I wonder if people with autism show the same variety of learning styles. Maybe that's the issue here.

>>11015580
I didn't say I didn't believe it, just that about.com is shit.

>>11015531
He's the one being efficient here, mister "I'm going to use rikaichan for every word and hope some of them stuck".

>>11015559

>But yes, anyone who listens to strangers on the internet over pursuing a method they feel is effective is retarded.

You better not be the same guy who said just go ahead and start reading without silly RTK or I'm going to personally come over to your house and kick you left nuts off. Your advice is a method.

>>11015586
>I always get the feeling that people learning japanese make things way harder for themselves than it needs to be by making mistakes that someone who's taken courses in a language before wouldn't.

The people making a mistake are those taking Japanese courses, which are notoriously bad at teaching reading skills.

>>11015586
>will help motivate you.
I admitted as much in my post. Grinding a ton of kanji will be useful as long as you don't just give up halfway through, which many people do. In that case they should have cut to the reading.

>is this your first foreign language?
No, mine was Chinese. Which is basically "Kanji Recognition: the Language," and has basically no grammar. So my perspective is probably quite skewed.

>>11015541
If you aren't aware of how memory works then please read http://www.supermemo.com/ articles, google, or something. It is documented that they work.

Let me quickly state that memory work better with association with other things like visual aids, sounds, etc.

Mnemonics *drastically* reduce the amount of time it takes to move a memory from short term to long term, which should be the goal for all those kanji.

Trying to memorize something like
雨雫雪雰雲零雷電雹漏需震霊霆霄膤樗澪蕾曇儒霎擂霖霈霑霙霓霍霏濡霞霜嬬孺艝懦轌臑霤繧霧霪壜襦孀糯蠕霰繻露霹轜霸癨櫺霾罎鱈霽靈靄靂靆靉
with true brute force (no radicals, no nothing) is fucking retarded. Using radicals is already a form of mnemonic by the way (visual).

If you still insist that that it is better to brute force then do whatever you want. At least try to consider that it is an inefficient method for memorization.

>>11015596
My official advice is to do about 400-500 kanji from RTK to get a feel for radicals, then start reading, while looking up new radicals when you encounter them, and using mnemonics if you want to when you see new kanji. But obviously people learn differently, so my advice is of course aimed at the "general" learner.


>>11015595
Have you actually entered the reading stage yet? I felt like I learned more by slugging through my first VN than I did in the entire year of study predating it.

>>11015604
>No, mine was Chinese. Which is basically "Kanji Recognition: the Language," and has basically no grammar. So my perspective is probably quite skewed.

Not directly related to your post, but in case anyone learning Chinese might want to look into, Heisig has several volumes on Remembering the Hanzi out now, following the RTK method. There are two volumes for simplified hanzi and two volumes for traditional.

>>11015613
>Have you actually entered the reading stage yet?

I wouldn't be ridiculing you if I didn't.

>mfw I realized I had to memorize all this shit

>>11015627
Well, it works surprisingly well. You should try it.

>>11015605
that's 64 characters. if you were learning by frequency that would be more than enough to read a short story. the first time you'll have to look up every word, but after several tries you'll be able to read something. that's an accomplishment you can build on.

>>11015636
You're not really making much sense.

Have you, per chance, learned your English just like you've learned your Japanese?

>>11015605
Even as a defending of learning a huge pile of characters first, bothering to learn every one of those characters before reading really does seem like a huge waste of time. Some of those are barely used.

>>11015649
I am countering the claim about mnemonics not working. You are the same person trying to claim that right? You are >>11015269 no?

That is it. Nothing else.

I'm -NOT- talking about reading as a main method of learning, which is something I try to tell people to do as soon as possible as soon as they are done their kanji(rtk or kd) and grammar.

>>11015658
英語はネイティブなんだけどな・・・
問題があると思うなら自分の頭を調べてみれば？

I have a question: for people who are now reading and went through Tae Kim, how comprehensive is it really? Does it cover most of the things you've run into? I'm thinking of going through that and picking up the Japan Time's grammar dictionaries for reference. There's an Anki deck that has all 8,000 sentences from them so I thought that might be good to go through on the side while reading.

>>11015684
well in that case I still don't see how having to memorize 64 runes is harder than 64 runes + 64 little stories

Mnemonics are for people who are afraid of kanji. That's pretty much it. You can learn them just by seeing them in vocabulary easier and you will also learn words as well.

>>11015699
The idea is that a mysterious rune is harder to memorize than a bunch of known shapes stapled together.

>>11015541
>how is remembering 2 things easier than remembering one?

The main problem is often not retaining the knowledge somewhere in memory, but acquiring the ability to recall it back. Your brain is, well, a neural network and needs a correct "wiring" to connect the input (in this case a visual character) to the correct output (its meaning/reading).

The idea is to associate the input with something that it can already recognize or can be easily taught to, and is likewise connected to the desired output.

This also works for things you don't know beforehand. Remembering 5 closely connected things is easier than remembering just one of them, because if you can recall just one of them, you can easily recall the rest (assuming you memorized them, which is a different process).

>>11015694
Most of the stuff it is missing is grammatical words like だらけ (this particular one is in tae kim) that you can basically figure out from the rikai-chan definition and context. With the exception of really old japanese, there's only a couple times I've really had trouble with finding an explanation for a grammatical construct.

And you can always google it too.

>>11015704
エピックＸＤ

>>11015708
All right, thanks.

>>11015704

I just want you to know there is a word bank on the koohi site itself to test you on the reading as you go along. On reading is also on the card.

You can even copy paste short paragraphs and it will highlight what you know and don't know from the list of words. Similar to lingq...

>>11015704
When I try to go straight to vocab, I just see random scribbles. It's very hard.

>>11015714
Do you know the radicals?

>>11015718
No.

>>11015705
that's only partially true. when I was trying to learn greek and was still getting used to the alphabet I could recognize common words faster than I could attempt to read them phonetically.

>>11015706
so you're saying it's like self hypnosis triggers?

Why are asians in generally so insecure about romaji?

>>11014829
What is the new internet approved method versus the traditional method?

let me guess

>Don't write anything
>Don't bother learning to speak
>Grind flashcards

>>11015734
That's one way, but a more accurate description would be

>Actually put effort into the language
>Start reading adult level material within a year
>Be able to read VNs without needing to look up words frequently after two years

Inb4 >that's so slow I did that in a month
because I don't give a shit

>>11015743
Not really, for a long time i deeply distrusted and disbelieve anyone who says you can be anywhere close to reading japanese within several years

However that was prior to reading this thread and being enlightened about the mnemonic method of remembering thousands of nondescript runes with no reference made up of many fine detailed strokes which are barely visible at a default zoom for westerners.

I wouldn't be suprised if with dedication and these methods of learning if you can start understanding within a year

>>11015743

but >Don't bother learning to speak is definitely still on the list. being able to speak the language is the primary function of virtually all school/college language courses.

spoken japanese is nothing like written.

>>11015759
>but >Don't bother learning to speak is definitely still on the list

Still on what list? The list of things to do or list of things to cut?

>>11015759
True, but if you can read books and understand anime, then you're a lot closer to speaking than most of the people who take classes. Everyone I have ever met who speaks japanese decently has been abroad for a decent length of time.

Since most communication has moved to typing, it can be argued the reading and writing eclipse the value of speaking (for people who do not live in japan). being able to understand spoken Japanese is always good though

>>11015734
Why learn to write and speak? For people like us it seems like a waste. Being able to read, listen, and communicate through typing would be enough.

>>11015768
i actually agree with you, but I'm sure purists/traditionalists disagree

>>11015665
The point is, even for the rare kanji, you should at least know all of their components, which makes learning them (when needed) a piece of cake.

>>11015678
それから，会話を読み返して下さい。君の間違いは明白だ。

>>11015722
But I'm pretty sure you did not go into it without familiarizing yourself with the alphabet first. What you mean is that you did not have a perfect recall, not that you started reading right away and learned the letters on the fly.

So is there a guide or book of some kind from which you guys picked up all the Kanji? Also, how did you manage spaced repetition? If you used software, how did you type in the characters to make the Kanji?

>>11015794
"Remembering the Kanji" by James Heisig. There are three volumes. Volume 1 teaches the writing and meaning of 2,200 kanji. Volume 2 teaches the readings of those kanji. Volume 3 teaches the writing, meaning, and reading of 800 more kanji. Most people just do volume 1 and then learn readings through vocab, but I found the other volumes useful (YMMV).

For SRS I used Anki. There is a deck here:
https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/1313251470
that has all 2,200 kanji from RTK1 pre-made, so all you have to do is download it. There are tons of other pre-made decks for RTK and other methods if you just search for them.

At a point in the RTK1 Heisig stops giving you stories and lets you create them yourself, but there is a website here:
http://kanji.koohii.com/
where people upload their own stories, and you can just look there and use the top-rated ones. You have to register and account though.

>>11015613
>Do you read?
>>11015627
>Of course I read, you idiot.
>>11015636
>You don't read? Well you should then.
>>11015658
>But I said that I DO read. God you're stupid.
>>11015678
>Hurr I'm gonna continue to misunderstand and make a fool of myself.

>>11015613さんは恥を知りべきだ

>>11015820
Another method is KanjiDamage. I don't know much about it, but the website is here. It's kind of like Heisig, but is modified to use verbal mnemonics that include on-yomi when present. It goes over about 1760 kanji and also has some kun-yomi each page, rated by frequency. Again there are Anki decks pre-made for it if you search for them. Maybe someone else can fill you in more on KD.

http://kanjidamage.com/

>>11015767
>most communication has moved to typing

spoken like a true NEET shut-in. bravo, anon.

>>11015785
if you learn vocabulary by frequency you'll end up running into all the radicals fairly quickly anyway.

>What you mean is that you did not have a perfect recall, not that you started reading right away and learned the letters on the fly.
no what I mean is that I recognized πόλις as "polis" faster than I could read the pronounciation. the point is that just because japanese is an archaic language without a phonetic alphabet doesn't mean you need magic tricks to learn how to read.

>>11015826
すごい緑色の文、アノンくん。

>>11015767
It hasn't really. There isn't any more use of writing now then there was back when the printing press was invented.

>>11015820
>tfw I have already downloaded RTK!
What luck!
Thanks Anon, I'm going to download that deck forthwith!

>>11015849
One thing, if you downloaded the book you probably don't have the most recent edition. The 6th edition added the new 2010 jouyou kanji and as far as I know hasn't been scanned. The deck I linked you to follows the 6th edition. There's a supplement you can download here that has the extra 6th edition kanji. I'd recommend using it.

http://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/en/files/2012/12/RK1-Supplement.pdf

>>11015861
Also get this deck instead of the other one I linked you. It follows the supplement numbering so things won't get confused. The supplement has things numbered like 45A, 100A, so you can stick them in where they go.

https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/2582505257

>>11015871
>so you can stick them in where they go.

Or so you can learn them in the proper order, rather.

>>11015826
I meant he should try just using rikai-chan for word he doesn't know and hope they sink in.
というかRTKで漢字の書き方を憶えても、単語を一つも知らないのなら読み物を単語ごと調べることは変わらないじゃん。屁理屈を吐きながらよくくだらない事を議論するなアスペが

ここで論破完成というわけだからどっかで泣いてろ

>>11015861
Shit.
I guess I do have that gift card for Amazon...

>>11015861
Do you recommend any other books for learning Japanese in general?

>>11015895
I recommend Tae Kim for grammar. Unless you want to do workbooks or something, then Genki would probably work.

>>11015912
Here's the link to Tae Kim, by the way. Even if you do some other method you should still probably give it a read through, as it corrects some problems that are present in a lot of textbooks. Make sure to use his Grammar Guide, not his Complete Guide (which is unfinished).

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar

>>11015924
Also here's an Anki deck for Tae Kim's guide, if you want to use it. Some people think it's confusing and don't like it.

https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/4249761762

>>11015945
One final thing. The most popular vocab deck around here is corePLUS. It has a massive amount of words and the description in the link has directions to sound files.

https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/194665997

>>11015912
>>11015924
>>11015945
>>11015953
Yeeeeesssssss
I'm reading the shit out of this, thanks a bunch! I have a feeling this alone is going to keep me busy for a long long time.

>>11015979
You'll give up after week.

>>11016040
stop the bully

>>11016040
Just because you said that, I'm going to dedicate the best years of my life to learning this language. What do you think of them apples?

>>11010595
A bit late here, but thanks for this. I downloaded it earlier today and am just getting around to giving it a shot.

I do like it's approach, because I'm a big manga reader and would like to make the transition to untranslated ones eventually.

Just reading over some of the amazon reviews, this is good for learning japanese fundamentals for everything right, not just to primarily set you up to read manga? So far it doesn't seem that way, but it does have a different approach from the previous methods I've tried, and the silly reviewers are saying things kind of like that, so I just want to make sure.

>>11016051
I can't say for sure as I did not use the book to learn, but having looked through it before, I did not get the impression that it was only to set you up for reading manga. Rather it appears to use manga as a teaching tool. So I'd take those reviewers with a large grain of salt. It does appear to have an emphasis on spoken Japanese, though, rather than the formal type you'll find in other textbooks (I wouldn't consider this to be a bad thing). If the book bothers you at some point, you could always use it as a bouncing off point to go into other books after you've gotten a grasp of the basics.

>>11016053
People who get overly exciting about things are the ones that end up giving up the quickest. Learning Japanese isn't exciting, you need to approach it like a boring office job that eats your life away for at least one year.

>>11016159
I live a life full of passion and enthusiasm.
I'd imagine I would be annoyed with me too if I were drowning in a sea of insipidity.

>>11016159
>Learning Japanese isn't exciting
I think it is really exciting.

>>11015849
Red data girl is shit and you should feel like shit for wathcing it.

>>11016416
What makes you think he watches RDG?

>>11016417
What makes you think he doesn't?

>>11016420
well he didn't mention anything about RDG

and the gif is from date a live

>>11016430
I-I was only pretending!

>>11016436
Lel

>>11016159
>Learning Japanese isn't exciting

But things you can do while knowing Japanese are. The point is to never lose sight of them.

>>11016465
Even learning the language is exciting in my opinion. Remembering a kanji or being able to translate a sentence correctly is really rewarding.

>>11017059
I agree. When I was at a basic level it was really great just to be able to recognize what someone was saying, or understand some sentence I saw out in the wild somewhere.

>>>/lang/

And delete the thread.

>>11018347
Do you actually think that's going to happen 228 posts in? Why even bother to post that?

I remember when I wanted to learn Japanese but it was just too hard for me so I picked up Korean instead.

Hangul is so easy I learned it literally in one day.

>>11018443
What's the point of learning Korea, though? Japanese gives me access to tons of shit that I want. Korean does nothing.

>>11018486
I can watch their films and dramas in Korean and I can listen to k-pop I guess?

But anyway, I'm going to Korea next year to get my master's degree. It's not as good as Japan, but their food is good I heard, plus plastic sluts are hot. And I'd also like to improve my Judo there, so yeah.

>>11014895
i disagree. this is a visual vs auditory learning argument.

>>11018563
Hey, can I tag along? I don't eat much and I just need a computer with internet.

I just wanna see the world but I don't wanna work and pay for it..

>>11018563
Gooks aren't human.

>>11019476
Gooks is a slur for any asian, not just koreans.

>>11019506
It applies especially to subhuman Korea scum.

I learned kana in about a week of studying two or three hours a day after school back in high school (was 14, I think)

So, about 15 - 20 hours of pure study. I was satisfied after I did 1000 realkana in a row and had something like 96% - 97%.

I don't think realkana is enough, however. I wrote down all the romaji (a i u e o, sa shi su se so etc.) and discovered I couldn't write some of the corresponding kana beside them immediately, although I recognized them on sight!

I wouldn't be dismissive of people claiming they learned kana in two or three days. It's possible if you tank through it, 10 hours a day.

>>11019599
Too much work, I could never bother with that shit.

>>11019519
Not really, pig feet.

It was created for the vietnamese.

>>11019506
gook is mostly for koreans and southeast asians like viets

>>11019599
>>11019662
Seriously, how can people have patience for something like this?

I don't. I don't have patience for anything. I can't learn a new language, I can't learn to play an instrument, I can't be bothered to learn any new things if I actually have to put some real effort into it, or I start but I give up pretty soon.

Is it true that to become someone successful in life you have to work hard for it? If it is then I'm never going to amount to anything. I'm too impatient.

>>11019684
Because you are seeing the whole mountain, anon. Just take it one step at a time. It doesn't matter if tomorrow you study japanese or not. Do it just today.

BTW I'm japanese.

>>11019684
It's all about at least doing SOMETHING. If you learn one kana a day, or one kanji a day, over time, you will have learned more than you would have otherwise.

It won't take long before you start deciding to do even more, because you'll start to enjoy it. If you become like me, you will be compelled to study.

>>11019873
If only it was that simple. Learning is a constant battle with entropy. You don't just have to learn. You have to learn, and then refresh, faster than you forget.

>>11019506
>Gook is a slur
Gook is korean and means something along the lines of "great" or "great one" and it's a not uncommon family name.

five minutes

>>11015953
>>11015945
>>11015924
>>11015912
THANK YOU!

One thing you must learn to be proficient in kana is how different fonts look, its absolutely useless too know how to recognize kana in just one font as you're memorizing an exact shape. You NEED to know how the font will vary or it will fuck you up later on.
All you need to do is select all 7 fonts in real kana once you've learnt them and you'll be able to easily read other fonts and handwriting.

>>11021200
The reason I had several different kana tables opened in different tabs when I was learning it. It's also good to know the 'very handwriting' fonts because they might look completely different than digital ones. Same with kanji later on but radicals help there.
Kata リソン look almost the same.

About 2 months, but I wasn't doing it consistently, I was in college at the time so I had to keep stopping for a week and then starting again. Basically, I wrote each character out 50 times then wrote Kana I'd learned so far. If I forgot one, that would be another 50 times.

>>11007973

They're probably talking about their total hours, not that they just sat there with a cup of tea looked at it and got it.

A night for hiragana, a few days for katakana.

>>11021330
Or they did "get" it in one day but only half of it was left next day.

>>11021427
That happens to me quite a lot, since I have a very hard time memorizing anything.

It took me three weeks to fully memorize the names of my high school friends.

Man, I don't even know where to start. So many different fonts, different letters, kana kanji, hiragana, katakana, I don't know what is what anymore ;_;

I used to have dreams of moving to Japan, but I can't even learn the language.

>>11021468
Alphabetical order seems the most logical. Check how they look in different fonts.
Hira -> Kata.
Method of learning kanji... roll a dice. If you don't like rolled method, roll the dice again.
Easy.
Give up.

>>11021468

This is the easiest part. I blazed through Hirigana an Katakana, only to get stuck on on grammar. I've been stuck on the same shit for 4 months now, I just can't remember. You should probably give up now, you'll end up wasting your time and getting your hopes up only to get shot down later.

>>11021511
Word. Just learn Korean instead, it's very easy and it's a good country. Better than Japan.

why is everyone saging every single fucking post on this board?

>>11021564
Lurk more.

>>11021200
>>11021318
A good reference book on this is Remembering the Kana by Heisig. Each kana has examples of it written in six others fonts, some of them pretty weird.

so where do i start?

what do i learn first?

i was thinking maybe i should actually go to a language school instead, take one of those courses and stuff... theres 256 classes * 90 minutes

>>11023059
Japanese classes are notoriously bad. As in you can take them for years and still not be able to read native material.

1 day.

>>11023079
It might be decent at an actual language school. It's university classes that are terrible.

I bet high-immersion language schools are pretty bad for reading too, but at least you would learn to speak.

All I want to do is read Mishima in Japanese. Maybe, maybe one day I'll be able to master katakana and hiragana. ;_;

>>11007910
week or so for Hiragana and a few days for Katakana.
>learning ゑ,ヱ,ゐ and ヰ
why?
>>11023097
Katakana isn't that hard after learning Hirgana. Kanji is just a matter of daily drilling.

>>11015764

If you want to learn Japanese to an advanced level, the only real way is to go there. You just want to learn enough to get a job as an English teacher or translator and then get there, that's when the real learning begins.

>>11023267
>>learning ゑ,ヱ,ゐ and ヰ
>why?

Not him but you do occasionally see them. Hell, you people like Touhou right? Take てゐ for example. Also they only take a second to learn. ゐ and ゑ are just modifications of み and る, ヰ shows up in some kanji, and ヱ is similar to ア.

>>11023340
>and ヱ is similar to ア.

Also 子, 了, etc. Point being it's a familiar shape.

Also don't forget to learn hiragana 'vu' ゔ

>>11023340
They aren't used anymore in modern Japanese.

>>11021027
Not really.

It means country, and is pronounced kook if alone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gook

>>11023366
Japanese don't has the v sound.

>>11023415
I just pointed you to an example of ゐ being used in a modern game. Wikipedia notes that ゑ/ヱ is used in the name of some beer brand. They are still used, just very rarely.

>>11023421
It can still be formed, e.g. ヴヴァヴェヴィヴォ. Words such as violin can be written either バイオリン or ヴァイオリン.

Are you people retarded?

>>11023421
Western influence on the language doesn't exist either, I take it.

>>11023421
How does it not?

>>11023430
>Are you people retarded?
If you compromise or agree with someone on the internet, you lose ego points.

>>11023440
Wow, you really are retarded.

>>11023430
Also when used ゐ is pronounced い。

Ȝ is my favourite kana

>>11023418
What would I know? I'm just born in Korea, I bet you and your wikipedia article must be more correct than a native speaker.
You're so stupid.

>>11023453
No. ゐ and い　are as different as てゐ　and てい

>>11026197
They are different yes, but ゐ is STILL pronounced the same as い. Same with ぢ and じ, ゑ and え etc.

>>11026265
In modern Japanese, yes.

>>11026461
Define modern, please.
Was it a reform at some point or do you just consider the language to be too old because it's constantly a subject to change.

>>11026265
I never saw じ written as ぢ
this is also pretty damn confusing if you already have ざ

>>11026265
No, it's pronounced うぃ.

>>11029815
So how's your first day of Japanese going?

>>11029815

鼻血 is はなぢ.

>>11029481

Reform after WWII.

How do you approximate how many kanji you've learned?

>>11030037
Anki stats.

>>11030037
Anki stats? Or was that a trick question?

>>11030037
I look to see how many cards are in my kanji deck.

>>11030037
probably by reading level. If you can read Journey To The east untranslated you have gone to far.

>>11030087

How do you use anki to study kanji? Obviously I know how, but I have the Kanji damage deck, and I could remember 1 kanji + one reading + one meaning, but with all the multiple Kun-yomi and On-yomi, it makes it very difficult. Do you say both, then the meaning, and then click show card, or do you have separate cards for separate readings?

>>11030888
So far, in fact, that you've gone beyond Japanese and overshot into German.

>>11030087

Wow, you probably speak better Japanese than most Japanese.

>>11030920
>Wow, you probably speak better Japanese than most Japanese.
Ha! I bet he only "knoes" them using the flashcard method.
Ask him to write the kanji for X and I bet he can't write even a tenth of those.

>>11031223
So? What use does writing serve you if you're not going to go to Japan? It's a useless skill for many of us.

>>11031242
It hurt my soul that so many of you aim so low.

>>11031266
Yeah let me waste lots of time learning something I'll never use when I could be reading and studying useful things.

>>11030917
wasn't whoops got my compas wrong. Journey To The West.

>>11031242
writing a kanji makes it easier to recognize and cuts down on learning time.
>wrote down 僕 50 times
>forgot how to write it
>recognize it without any problems.

>>11031454
Lol, the last thing it fucking does is cut down on learning time. I can recognize them just fine because of SRS.

>>11031454
You learn to read by reading.
You learn to write by writing.

>>11033302
[citation needed]

>>11033302
writing teaches you the position of every stroke.

>>11007921

Why would you waste your time learning romaji?

>>11007910

10 days of passive studying.

>>11037041
You need to learn romaji in order to learn kana though.

>>11037390
if you can use this site you already know Romaji.