/jp/ - Otaku Culture

circle jerk thread.

yes I did :)

Lately it's taking me like 8 hours to do my reps because I spend too much time watching anime with Japanese subtitles.

>>10793169
Where do I find such anime?

Also are the subtitles generally direct transcriptions or do they do what English subtitles do and condense things because deaf people are apparently slow as HELL readers?
I hate that. I used to watch everything with subtitles. Then one day it seems there was a shift in the industry and a character would say "Are you going to meet Jack by the river?" but the subtitles would read "Meeting Jack at the river?"
Fuck you, subtitlers. You're doing it wrong. I can read faster than I can hear.

>>10793171
There aren't many. Post here if you find any with subtitles.

le viral marketing

>>10793378
Fuck off. There's nothing wrong with using anki as an aid to learning a language, especially Japanese. If this wasn't relevant to /jp/, these topics wouldn't exist.

Who NEET here? :^)

>>10793621
truNEET here

>>10793463
Please ignore the /v/ermin.

Just bought the Anki app. :)

>>10793463
>If this wasn't relevant to /jp/, these topics wouldn't exist.
Clearly that is not true, as proven by these threads.

>>10794019
Do you not realize what board you're posting on? Is your feeble mind to retarded to comprehend what this program does?
It's completely relevant to helping you understand Japanese media in it's rawest form. A lot of the topics on this board have discussions about untranslated media.
This is nothing but a stepping stone to gaining an understanding of that.
Fucking do your research before proclaiming whether or not something is relevant.
You're only making yourself look like a dumb ass by making such conclusions.

>>10794997
Buying a computer is necessary to enjoy a lot of japanese media as well. Why don't you make a thread about which graphics card to go with?

Dropped doing new words for JLPT1 a few days ago midway into the deck.

Only adding words I don't know from VNs and other material for now.

who fuggin NEEEEEEEEEEEEEET here

I have a question, dear friends. Where might I find decks for JPLT 1 and 2 that are compatible with Anki? I'm having difficulty. Perhaps my google-fu is weak, but that I will admit to humbly, if it is the case.

Finding out from the community, those who would know the true way things are, seems to me the most secure tactic of encountering said decks. So I ask, will anyone take up my cause, and come to my rescue?

>>10795161
Wow, what a great retort. You are clearly the Aristotle of our time.
I guess you really are retarded. Please, tell me, how are you browsing this site right now?
Chances are, whatever device you're using is capable of displaying Japanese media.
There's also a specific board catered to the very thing you speak of.
Anki itself is more flexible in that regard. It can be talked about on many boards given how useful it is.
Keep it up with the pointless replies, please. Your lack of intelligence amuses me.

>>10795234
Download corePLUS and export the cards tagged JLPT1-2 into a seperate deck.

Edit card layout to your liking as corePLUS's default layout is crap.

>>10795238
Actually, he's right. You're a moron for believing that anything that has to do with Japan is /jp/-related. There's a reason they changed the board name from "Japan/General", you know.

Also, if Anki is "flexible" and can be talked about on many boards, why can't computers?

PS: Your spam of pretentious middle-school-tier intellect insults are only serving to show your insecurities, not make anyone else look stupid.

>>10795240
Thank you most kindly. I now proceed to the next level. I will endeavor to catch up to anyone who has gone before me, and wish those still on their way behind me the best of luck!

>>10795238
>There's also a specific board catered to the very thing you speak of.
>>>/lang/

>>10795248
/lang/ a slow

Anyone that gets riled up by Anki threads and contemplate whether they should exist on /jp/ or not are NEET thread sympathisers.

>>10795254
The circlejerks in these threads are done by the exact same faggots that made those NEET threads prior to their removal in the first place, you autistic faggot.

>>10795260
Who cares. NEET threads are about blogging about your shitty life while these threads are about blogging about your Japanese progress.

There's a clear difference in quality between them.

>>10795265
Yeah, in these threads people get to lord their progress over others and discuss the finer points of a language where they're at a third-grade level.

>>10795249
Only seems slow until you ask a question. You will get your question answered unless it's fucking retarded like "HOWDOLERNJAP?"

>>10795260
I'm the OP who posted this thread and I hate NEET threads and am glad they're gone.

>>10795245
>>10795248
Computers can be talked about, given the proper relevance to the board. The point is, anki is more than relevant enough to be talked about here. Don't like it? Deal with it, faggots. Just because you're too retarded to use it, doesn't mean you should keep whining about these threads.

Keep the meta out of this please. Go to /q/ and make a thread. Judging by the janitor's choice of conduct these are allowed.

>>10795268
At least they're better than the mindless 2hu shitposting. Please don't make the board shittier than what it already is.

>>10795283
anyone got an anki deck to remember the personal info about all 2hus?

>>10795276
>Just because you're too retarded to use it, doesn't mean you should keep whining about these threads.
Yeah, and I'm sure the people who complain about anime in /jp/ are just too dumb to figure out how to watch anime. That's gotta be it.

>>10795283
"Better than mindless shitposting" doesn't mean that it's a good thread.

>>10795289
You're not making any change by complaining about it here. Take >>10795283's advice and make a thread about it.

>>10795300
I don't care enough to start a campaign to make them go away. And the better people get at Japanese the more things they're able to discuss, so they're not all bad.

I just think the threads are mostly shit and I thought you should know. The recent idea where nobody is allowed to criticize anything because /q/ exists is a dumb one.

>>10795289
You're not providing any good reasoning of why these topics aren't relevant to /jp/. Just fuck off already. Come back when you have a better argument. You're just making yourself look more and more retarded with each post you make.

>>10795313
>You're not providing any good reasoning of why these topics aren't relevant to /jp/.
Somebody else did that for me.

>Just fuck off already.
Unjustified reasoning. Come back when you have a better argument.

>Come back when you have a better argument.
Unjustified reasoning. Come back when you have a better argument.

>You're just making yourself look more and more retarded with each post you make.
Unjustified reasoning. Come back when you have a better argument.

JANNNNNNNNNNNNNY

>>10795313
Because there's already a board for this shit. I would even argue that /int/ is a better place than here to post it.

Also, do you really think that these threads aren't typically consumed by blog-style circlejerks?

I'm curious on what type of threads the people against these threads post in.

Wow! EPIC viral marketing/blog thread. I like it. :)

>>10795328
They probably post only in threads they think are shit so they can complain about them.

>>10795320
Anything else to say? Looks like your brain just went haywire. So far all you've managed to provide is complete retardation, you must be so proud of yourself.
>>10795325
No, it helped me discover this useful resource. Without these topics, I would have never found it in the first place.

>blog thread

Go and complain about the VN General while you're at it.

>>10795332
epic reakshun image d00d

>>10795332
So you just assume everyone is as stupid as you, and unable to use search engines at the most basic level to find language-learning tools?

>>10795332
>Anything else to say?
Poor reasoning. Please come back when you have a better argument.

>No, it helped me discover this useful resource.
Yeah, that takes one thread. Maybe once a month to update the newcomers. Should we have nyaa threads and exhentai threads every day so that people can discover how great these websites are?

>nyaa threads and exhentai threads every day so that people can discover how great these websites are
>>10795349
>>10795333

>>10795353
There are, of course, a number of notable differences between Anki General and VN General, but I have no doubt that you could come up with a bunch yourself if you tried.

>>10795343
Anki doesn't even show up in the top 10 results. So yeah, it's pretty underrated in terms of usefulness. I'm sure there are others around who discovered it through these threads as well.
>>10795349
You're more than welcome to make those threads, it's up the janitor whether or not they get deleted though.
Now please, quit shitting up the thread, and wasting your time griping over something you have no control over.

>>10795362
>U FRUSTRATED U FRUSTRATED BRO U SO MAD WHY ARE YOU SO MAAAAD I CAN POST ANYTHING OTAKU RELATED THAT IS HOW IT SAYS IN THE RULES I DONT CARE ABOUT YOUR FAGGOTRY RULES Y SO MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD

>>10795358
✓Blogging about a specific topic, your current progress
✓Recommendations
✓Circlejerk

>>10795362
Almost every Japanese language learning guide floating around 4chan has Anki in it somewhere. The Japanese language threads on /a/ and /lang/ also both recommend it. You don't need a thread up around the clock to inform people that a resource exists.

>You're more than welcome to make those threads, it's up the janitor whether or not they get deleted though.
I could, but I won't, because they would be shit.

>Now please, quit shitting up the thread.
It takes two to tango.

I like this new game

just complain about/shit up a thread forever until the janitor gets sick of cleaning it and eventually it'll be outlawed

and then one day all we'll have on the first 5 pages will be ``2hu boobies'' threads

>>10795369
✓Thread on 4chan
✓Japanese language related
✓Discussion occurs

Should I link you to a English language learning guide so you can learn what "differences" means?

>>10795375
What the fuck are you even talking about? There are plenty of threads that are widely complained about that stick around. Look at fucking Flanfly. Or more recently, Elona generals.

>✓Discussion occurs

>>10790750
>>10790645
>>10790071

And hundreds of other posts. There's plenty of discussion in these threads, it's just you that don't frequent them enough to see that.

>>10795385
You're behind the times. Flanfly threads are taken down as often as not. People do complain about the other shitty Touhou threads quite a bit, though.

>>10795375
I'd even take DAS IT MANE shit on the front page over this garbage.

>>10795374
Yeah, I hope you had fun making pointless posts. In the end it all amounted to a huge waste of time. Bottom line is, anki threads are here to stay, so cry more please.

I tried it for a while but realized I'm not smart enough to learn moonrunes.

>>10795393
If you want spam all over the front page, you should do it yourself.

>>10795396
Poor reasoning. Please come back when you have a better argument.

>In the end it all amounted to a huge waste of time.
No doubt your time here was spent highly productively.

>Cry more please.
You told me to stop crying, and now you're telling me to cry more. Make up your mind, dude.

>>10795396
I hate to burst your "LOL U MAD" argument, but most of the crying here seems to be from the people offended that people complained about these threads. They started a whole shitstorm over posts that were only three words long.

>>10795403
People complain about idol threads, STG threads, VN threads, and Touhou threads being shit all the time but the people in those threads generally have enough good sense to not start shitstorms about it.

>otaku paraphernalia
The Japanese language falls under this category. Please go.

>>10795398
There's no need for that when the board already has glorious threads like this around.

>>10795410
>Japanese language
>paraphernalia

I don't think you know what that word means.

>>10795416
Why are these threads even allowed then?

>>10795420
A lot of people seem to like having them around and they're vaguely otaku culture related.

>>10795385
Flanfly has been getting deleted for weeks now.

https://fuuka.warosu.org/jp/thread/S10768199

Not a single complaint in this thread. No deleted posts.

>>10795402
You wouldn't shut the fuck up, so I might as well have said that.
>>10795403
Uh-huh, and where does the whining come from? It's not like anki threads are detrimental at all to this board. It seems like there's a bunch of cynics running rampant bitching over everything they don't like. It's no wonder this board has gone to shit over the years.

>>10795420
I never said they weren't allowed (because they unfortunately are). I said that language isn't "paraphernalia" in any way, shape, or form.

>>10795427
>You wouldn't shut the fuck up, so I might as well have said that.
I'm glad you came around to seeing things my way.

>Uh-huh, and where does the whining come from?
From people who think these threads are shit. You should speculate for a few minutes on why it's these threads in particular, and not any number of others.

>It seems like there's a bunch of cynics running rampant bitching over everything they don't like.
It was always like this. Or at least it was up until "no bully pls" and ">>>/q/" became popular and people stopped bothering.

>>10795434
>paraphernalia
culture bitch.
Knowing the language is a part of getting imersed in the culture. No do your reps!

>>10795427
The whining mostly comes from you, and the decline of /jp/ is also due to gentlemen like yourself too. It used to be that people were able to ignore shitposts and continue discussing the topic at hand without shitting up the place. Then again, there's not much discussion to be had in these threads aside from roughly two people jacking each other off, so maybe that has something to do with it.

Suck my cock, dude.

holy shit /jp/ is too easy to troll

>>10795442
Do I really have to do this?

>par·a·pher·na·lia
[par-uh-fer-neyl-yuh, -fuh-neyl-]

noun
1.
( sometimes used with a singular verb ) equipment, apparatus, or furnishing used in or necessary for a particular activity: a skier's paraphernalia.

2.
( used with a plural verb ) personal belongings.

Otaku paraphernalia refers to shit like figures and dolls. It has nothing to do with language.

>>10795443
it's funposting.

Come into a thread, shit ALL OVER IT and then when someone comes in to say that the thread is fine, just say he's shitting up the board by discussing it.

I like it. Please, add more rules to this new game. I wanna do it too to threads I don't like, I'm learning.

>>10795452
Oh shut the fuck up with your meta conspiracy-theory whining, faggot.

>>10795452
Shitting on a thread is a team effort. If the guy who posted "le viral marketing" had been left alone the thread would peacefully be on page three by now.

>Please, add more rules to this new game. I wanna do it too to threads I don't like, I'm learning.
The only two rules are:

1. No replying to yourself.
2. If nobody bites, you give up for the time being.

>>10795441
It seems you have more time to burn than I do, I'm done with this discussion. Take >>10795276
his advice if you hate these topics so much. I'm only defending this because it was thanks to these topics, I even found this program in the first place. You should channel your energy into making more relevant topics on /jp/ if you think this one is so shitty among the others.
>>10795443
I just got fed up with it, but whatever, if they want to keep shitposting, let them. In the end it's their time wasted.

>>10795466
Shit misquoted, I meant to quote >>10795283
him for getting advice.

>>10795466
>It seems you have more time to burn than I do.
Goodbye, come again~

>I'm only defending this because it was thanks to these topics, I even found this program in the first place.
Either you were using a very shit guide to learning Japanese or you weren't serious at all about it in the first place.

>I just got fed up with it, but whatever, if they want to keep shitposting, let them.
The delicious part is that if you had adopted this attitude from the beginning, there would be 99% less "shitposts" in this thread.

I just hit 6000 words on my Anki deck bros, can I get a congratulation or what?

>>10795466
Your angry flaming of the haters sure improved the thread.

People should just ignore possible meta bait. VN General people do this all the time.

>>10795466
Alright I'll admit, that image made me lol.

Now can we all just stop fighting and start sucking each other off? Please?

>>10795469
You're right, it was pure impulse. They used to link the resource guide from /a/, which is how I got more info on it. I was toying with the idea of learning it for years, and I had no idea SRS software existed in the first place. Maybe I was more ignorant than others in that regard, but I give credit where credit is due.

I wish these thread could just go in a different direction than simply being a place to show off your amazing charts/amount of words/maturity percent correct. Who fucking cares? Congratulations you're good at memorizing! Did you do your reps yet? ;) btw I have 100% correct for my mature cards over 20000 words :DDDDD i went through 1000 reps today XDDDDDDDDDDDDDD my dick is so hard now who wants to suck it while i do my reps??? ;)

I'd rather have it be a Japanese learning thread and not masquerade as one under Anki which is not even otaku related. I don't mind answering questions about that, even if its the most retarded questions, than being tech support for Anki for the vast majority of the time and seeing epeen posts.

If its going to be a blog thread about Japanese progress than actually talk about what you read today or something. Share books or something. Tell me you're faster at reading after reading X book and talk about the book or something hard about it or the latest volume of the LN you're working on. Make an honest post saying you don't understand this paragraph/sentence and attempt to translate it while asking for help where you're stuck. Talk about shit like you don't need to dick around with grammar books forever and just read instead. This dude is offering lessons for free for improving your speaking for those aren't scared of people on Skype check it out or some shit like that. Share some voice audio to listen to like those erotic dlsite ones. Share some anime/drama audio rips for listening. Something other than showing off your anki dick size.

>>10795547
>I'd rather have it be a Japanese learning thread and not masquerade

The problem lies within the /jp/ community itself, and is the reason to why this isn't happening.

I tried creating a Japanese discussion thread before and got the same results. It looks like people either aren't interested in discussing those kind of things, or the majority of the people here isn't at that level yet to spur any discussion revolving around the things you described.

>feelio when no cutem ilky gf :((((((((

I'd like an actual Japanese thread.

Like, only Japanese posts allowed. Where it goes from there is up to the thread I guess. Correcting other people's Japanese, asking for help, etc.

It'd eliminate the super stupid questions, because you'd need to post in Japanese and it'd be like interacting with a penpal, without the semi-social interaction.

I don't really think it'd work, though. Not enough people would be able to participate I think.

>>10795547
this sounds amazing we should have this. There just needs to be a way to keep the shitposting at bay.

>>10795589
I'd like a new sports car.

>>10795589

Mootはそ許さないだろう。 /lang/に行くだろう

>>10795547
It would be nice if these threads could go that direction, so there be less "blogging". I see a lot of jelly recently and I don't want this to end like the NEET threads.

I used to be against language threads, but I have to admit that in the end they can make this board better. This is the only place I know where I can discuss untranslated stuff, and I think it's really nice that you all are making progress.

>>10795547
>talk about what you read today or something

That's what the rest of the board is about, in case you didn't notice.

>>10795599
Ignore, hide, report. It works.

>>10795547
This. You perfectly described why I hate these threads. It's because it's specifically designed to be a circlejerk. If it was about japanese, I wouldn't mind it nearly as much. Especially if it managed to be less awful than the /a/ one.
>>10795569
You don't get any good discussion by making a thread about anki either. If you just make a thread saying "日本語を話しましょう" I bet 70% of the time it will end up better than these.

What are the most straight forward resources for learning kanji, vocab, and grammar?

For example, anki is great, but it seems more like something that's designed to drill in what you've already learned from other resources that go into more detail on things like grammar rules and vocab meanings. So I'm not completely clear on what I should be using aside from anki decks.

100% of my study time is fueled by amphetamines and I can only maintain about 8-9 hours of non-stop studying each day before diminishing returns set in and the drug stops working as well. At the moment I'm wasting around four of those hours googling questions about what I should be using to learn, so it's very important for me to condense this into a handful of resources and just focus on those and block out distractions.

>>10799196
>What are the most straight forward resources for learning kanji, vocab, and grammar?

A Japanese novel. I'm serious. I remember someone discussing his progress and after doing the initial steps (kana,kanji,basic grammar) he spent his entire time reading a book. Finished it in a month and mined about 7k words from it. After that he said he could read LN's with ease and could literally finish LN series in a day or some shit. He was NEET, which you are too I think.

If you have no idea what to do and a genuine beginner then do something like this:

Kana: If you're brain just doesn't understand Kana easily for whatever reason use Heisig's remembering the kana. Otherwise just brute force it since that is literally the easiest thing to learn.

Kanji: Heisig or Kanji Damage. Get the book (pirate) if you're using Heisig so you can know the mnemonic it uses and go through it at the pace it suggests or double since you're high (50 kanji/day for two months or 100 kanji/day for one month). KD has a common reading for each kanji. There's benefits for either method just decide for yourself. You can learn common readings either during vocabulary (heisig) or now (KD). People can bitch about this specific topic until they are bleeding from their eyes. Learning the readings now will allow you to guess at a unknown compound's reading but you may not get it because reading mutations like rendaku/uncommon readings/etc.

Grammar: Taekim and Dictionaries of Japanese Grammar (Basic, Intermediate, Advance) are the usual ones suggested. Taekim may be enough but it does leave out stuff that will show up in written material. http://jgram.org/ is pretty good for things not mentioned above too.

Vocabulary: Core2k is good. After this you have to read. Spend all your extra time reading and add the words from the shit you're reading.

Remember, reading is probably the best thing to do to improve everything.

>>10799407
Reading is what should be done asap. I wasted almost a year just grinding kanji and I got almost nothing out of it. Everyone should start reading with JParser as soon as they finish kana and grammar. You won't see any progress in japanese until you start learning grammar.
Listen to raw anime, there are streams out there that stream old anime. Translate the lyrics of your favorite songs and mine them for vocab. Listen to news, podcasts and such. /a/'s djt has a pastebin full of good resources for learning.

>>10799441

>I wasted almost a year just grinding kanji and I got almost nothing out of it.

Why do people make it seem like memorizing kanji is such an important thing to do? I agree with you completely, but the emphasis that people put on memorizing kanji is something that boggles my mind.

>>10799524
Well on the one hand it's an easy way to show off your e-penis on the other it's important if you aren't reading stuff on the computer

>>10793107
How does i start anki.
>im really new and don't know which jap to start on.
I went on the website
So core 1000?

Here's a generic motivational video to motivate you to do your reps today!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6wRkzCW5qI

>>10799661
Post it every day from now on.

>>10799661
Here is a more appropriate motivational video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJj0_1mS2Co

You can only learn Japanese when you want to learn Japanese as badly as you want to breath.

An otaku's deepest fear is not that he's inadequate.
An otaku's deepest fear is that he's powerful beyond measure.

Why don't reps feel very difficult? I think I'm doing something wrong.

I have a vocab deck, a grammar deck, a kana deck, and a kanji deck, and I have it set to give me 40 new cards each day for each day, but even with reviews it still only takes an hour or two.

It feels too easy. Is there a huge chunk of learning Japanese that I'm neglecting because anki alone doesn't seem to be enough?

>>10799918

Yeah, production

>>10799918
They'll start feeling difficult when you'll be trying to recall a card last seen two months ago that contains something that you've only encountered in your deck so far.

>>10799524
Because it immensely speeds up the entire process of learning. (Unless, of course, you're a literal idiot who does nothing but memorize kanji for an entire year.)

It's funny to observe how many people who bitch about learning kanji have in fact learned kanji before proceeding with the rest and simply don't realize how much it helped them later. I, for one, actually attempted to read and comprehend things without recognizing kanji and know how useless and pointless it is. Just suck it up and grind them, it takes a month or two and then you're good to go on with the rest.

>>10803541
>speeds up process
>take a month or two to learn them
Just learn words, not kanji. People who decide to use RTK or KD are usually the ones that give up early on because they approach the language with a fear, so they use some stupid method because they're afraid they can't learn kanji the way everyone single person in Japan does.

>>10803923
Completing RTK doesn't really take that long and it is effective if you want to write them. I did it and I think it helped. I don't think it's necessary, though.

>>10803980
If you want to learn to write the kanji, just learn the kanji through words until you know a couple thousand and then take a couple days to learn stroke order. Or you can spend a month or two on RTK before you even start doing anything else.

>>10804004
Learning to read is nowhere near as difficult as learning to write. You will spend far more time memorizing how to write every character through repetition than through an organized system like RTK.

I am still learning kana. I use different app for it.

>>10803923
People who decide not to use RTK or KD are usually the ones that fail because they approach the process of learning with ignorant overconfidence and belief they can skip the fundamentals.

>Just learn words

And just how many kanji there are that aren't words on their own?

>learn kanji the way everyone single person in Japan does.

There's a reason it takes the Japanese 9 years of school to learn what RTK/KD lets you learn in a month. But if you want to take things the hard way, no-one's stopping you.

I watched too much sugary anime and now I accidentally talk like a girl.

how hard is this to fix? I already know the difference it's just I tend to accidentally use 'female' words and copula.

also is '俺' really as impolite as everyone makes out? My friend uses it constantly even to women twice his age and it has always struck me as more of a statement about yourself than other people. Every time I've asked if 俺 was particularly rude I was told no

>>10804036
It's hard to judge your speech without hearing you. Honestly, the main thing you want to avoid is overuse of sentence particles and make sure you use だ when speaking in plain form. If you're not capable of correcting it, you're not at a point where it's worth worrying about. Using 俺 is a contextual thing. Some people use it more than others. You probably should not use it in formal situations.

>>10804038
>overuse of sentence particles
I swear i'm doing that.

>You probably should not use it in formal situations.
Sometimes it's hard to tell what would constitute a formal situation, does that basically mean work environment? I have survived so far by just playing by ear and using whatever everyone else uses. And every english written guide has always seemingly exaggerated the potency of self referential words and words like omae etc.

>>10804004
for me personally, the kanji helps you distinguish verbs from each other.

otherwise they're letter soup and generally sound similar. at least if you're aware of all the kanji readings and you hear a word you can think 'oh he means THAT reading'.

>>10804057
It will depend on who you're talking to in the work environment.

> And every english written guide has always seemingly exaggerated the potency of self referential words and words like omae etc.

Better to exaggerate than to have people thinking it's normal to call random strangers omae.

who truN33T here

>>10804069
now that I think about it, yeah it's probably better to err on the side of caution. thanks for the replies!

>>10803923
I dunno I gave up vocab and grammar most of the way in and to do KD because I would always be depressed trying to piece together stuff on my own when I had no kanjis to work with. So far im almost done and it's not at all hard just tedious to keep up on.

Newbie in Japanese here. I started learning Kana week ago and soon I need start learning Kanji too. I downloaded Anki, but what deck do you guys use? Aaeru suggests to use "Heisig’s Remembering the Kanji 1+3 with 2010 joyo kanji", is this good one?

>>10804360
try Heisig and Kanjidamage, pick one of them, then ignore everyone advocating the other method

>>10804360
If you try Heisig's method, you should read up on what it's trying to do. Most people don't and end up disappointed.
Download or buy the book and read his explanations.
tl;dr version: Heisig does NOT try to teach you japanese. He teaches you how to remember and recognize the Kanji. He assigns names to each kanji that are usually one of the meanings of that Kanji (not necessarily the most common one, it doesn't matter that some of those names are "wrong", because the point is that each name should be unique).
He doesn't teach you grammar, pronunciations or vocabulary. When you're finished, you still won't be able to read anything.

In my opinion it still was worth it, because you should be able to power through it in 2-4 months, and it definitely helps when you're starting to actually learn Japanese. Learning vocabulary is a lot easier if you're able to actually recognize the kanji.

>>10804385
Yea I already found that. I need to read it first.

A friend told me that one shouldn't use "Again", is that right?

>>10804552
I disagree. The spacing algorithm needs honest answers to correctly schedule the cards.
If you don't use the algorithm, you might as well randomly review the cards

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai2K3qHpC7c

>>10804552
Your friend shouldn't be your friend anymore.

whoah, I accidentally touched my elbow in the Enter key and lost almost 20 cards

>>10804385
Forgive me for being daft, but is Heisig's method for those who cant differentiate one kanji from another or something? I feel like I can recognize the characters but I just don't know how to read them.

>>10804644
Heisig doesn't teach you how to read characters (well, at least not until book 2, and most agree that that book is useless)

>>10804623
what?

>>10804623
Ctrl+Z

Or is that yet another thing not working in Anki 2?

>>10804032
What are you talking about dude? Your post doesn't make sense. I know about 1500 kanji in only a few months and over 6000 words to go along with that. And those are the most common kanji so I can pretty much read any manga minus names.

>>10804837
Please specify which part was too hard for you to understand.

>>10804873
>And just how many kanji there are that aren't words on their own?

>>10804895
The question is pretty straightforward, but let's try something easier:
Do you not realize that by learning kanji, you're already learning words?

>>10804936
With KD you will know a few words, with RTK you won't know anything still. The point is you shouldn't be learning things you don't need yet. Just learn words in common order so you can start reading as soon as possible. That is the quickest way to learn Japanese.

>tfw you know Japanese and practicing for speedrunning MM 100% and get WR

fuggin english only plebs that cannot into quiz

>>10804600

I hate these fucking sperglords that make videos but just add in a bunch of text without reading it.

I'M WATCHING A VIDEO NOT READING A FUCKING BOOK

GODDAMMIT THIS RUINED MY ENTIRE DAY

>>10804967
Learning kanji is the most efficient method to kickstart reading. For any number n (below, say, 3000), you're going to be able to read much, much more with n kanji that you would with n "words in common order" (not to mention that, due to how straightforward the bottom-up progress is, you're going to learn the kanji much faster that you would learn the same amount of words if you're ignoring the fundamentals). You might have a case if you wanted to be speaking the language, but for reading, you don't even need pronunciation, you only really need the meaning. And learning kanji provides you with precisely that, not only for them, but also for most of their compounds.

Now, pronunciation is very often helpful and I don't approve of RTK's way of completely ignoring it, but even RTK alone (plus some basic grammar) lets you read much earlier and much more than someone who decided to "learns words" will. And that's even before you start "learning words" yourself.

50,000 reps today
Suck it bitches.

乗リ
剰

>>10805102
>For any number n (below, say, 3000), you're going to be able to read much, much more with n kanji that you would with n "words in common order"
Bullshit. You'll be able to read absolutely nothing. And there's nothing stopping you from learning your first 2000 words such that they use around 1500 of the Jouyou between them, so that you 'know' a bunch of kanji in addition to a bunch of words.

If you think learning a word is hard if you haven't seen the kanji, you probably aren't very far yet. Learning to read something like 菩薩 is a hell of a lot easier than remembering the most common way to pronounce something like 大願成就, even assuming you have never seen the kanji for 菩薩 and know the english meaning of all the kanji in 大願成就

>>10805141
>You'll be able to read absolutely nothing.

I started reading manga with less than 1500 memorized kanji and no vocabulary as you define it. And my only problem by that point was grammar.

>there's nothing stopping you from learning your first 2000 words such that they use around 1500 of the Jouyou between them

Indeed. There's also nothing stopping you from learning 1500 words that use 1500 kanji. The process is called "learning kanji".

>菩薩
>大願成就

That's some common words you have there.

You know what's also so much easier when you know kanji? Typing the word into the dictionary. (Finding complex kanji too, but that's another story.) I may not know how to pronounce 大願成就, but all I'd need to do is to type dai[Enter]negai[Space][Enter][Backspace]naru[Enter][Backspace]tsuku[Space][Space][Space][Enter][Backspace] and I would know what it means. Good luck with that when you're a hipster learning 四字熟語 instead.

>>10805333
成就 is a common word. 菩薩 was to illustrate that rare words with obscure kanji can be easy to learn. The second example I chose just because I needed an example showcasing where it's hard to remember the reading despite knowing the kanji (たいがん vs だいがん, せいしゅう vs じょうじゅ) There are plenty of more common examples, not to mention that there are enough different rare examples that you are coming across words uncommon readings very frequently, even if each individual word is fairly uncommon.

>Indeed. There's also nothing stopping you from learning 1500 words that use 1500 kanji. The process is called "learning kanji".
The difference is that it would actually be useful. When most people say "learning kanji" they mean using some time wasting method where they just learn the english meaning, or even worse, the english meaning and all the common readings without any words going along with it.

And if you read LNs or VNs, you don't need to go through the painful process of typing a word with each part anyway. You can just use a dictionary directly

>>10805375
how can I use a dictionary directly in a LN

>>10805391
Get it in text format instead of a scan.

>>10805395
why would I want a pussy dictionary when I could read it by meself

>>10805400
Because I told you to. Bitch.

>>10805395
but I only have physical copies

>>10805423
Depends on the series, but many LNs give the reading for anything that is even remotely uncommon. Hell, Haganai gives the reading for 俺 every time it shows up on a new page. Something like the Zaregoto series doesn't show as much, but it's still far more than most VNs, so you shouldn't be struggling too hard.

>>10805423
Then you're not doing the most efficient way to learn when starting out. Which is fine, but there's a difference between "learning all the kanji first makes it way faster to learn japanese" and "learning all the kanji first makes it way faster to learn japanese if you try to learn through reading physical things where it is a pain in the ass to look up new kanji"

>>10805465
Not that guy, but I hate reading stuff on the screen for long periods of time. Having a physical copy also makes it much more portable.

>>10805468
I agree actually, VNs are the only thing I can actually stand to read on the computer.

That said, if you're learning you need to be at a computer to look everything up anyway, so that doesn't matter. Physical copies are great once you're good enough to understand most of it and can just ignore the words you don't know or look up on your smartphone

Physical copies increase your confidence.

>>10805102
That's not even true. You can start reading after a week with learning common words. Then you can pick up grammar quicker, which is more important than kanji.

>>10805375
>菩薩 was to illustrate that rare words with obscure kanji can be easy to learn

But you're not going to learn it unless you learn the kanji first. Otherwise, good luck telling it apart from some similarly looking mass of unintelligible scribbles.

>it's hard to remember the reading

But once again, when you're reading (as opposed to reciting), you do not actually need to know the pronunciation, so it doesn't even matter. It's a "thing you don't need yet" to start reading and something you can easily learn much later.

>it would actually be useful

Precisely.

Unfortunately, when people say "learn words, not kanji", they don't mean doing this. They mean forcing your way through some Core deck full of compounds before the kanji they comprise and complex kanji before their radicals. Not to mention placebo like English words and several variations on the same kanji (because learning 眠い the adjective, 眠る the verb and 眠り the noun separately is necessary for your reading prowess, or at least more important than learning two more runes).

>>10805561
You aren't learning Kanji if you don't learn their readings, neither are you learning any words.

>>10805506
Reading what, examples in your grammar book? You're not going to read a real-world text with a week worth of words. Or a month, for that matter.

>>10805578
That's both not true and not even what I'm saying people should do.

>>10805561
>But you're not going to learn it unless you learn the kanji first
You're wrong. That's not nearly as much of a problem as you think it is. If you know radicals, you can learn the differences when you need to as opposed to when you first see the word. And even stuff like 徴 and 微 is pretty easy if you just learn the words, because 徴妙 and 象微 aren't words.

>But once again, when you're reading (as opposed to reciting), you do not actually need to know the pronunciation,
So you aren't actually learning Japanese. You're learning how to guess what japanese sentences mean by inferring from the kanji in the sentence.

>>10805603
What is untrue about it?

>>10805653
All of it, basically, but mostly the "you're not learning kanji" part.

>>10805615
>If you know radicals

Yes, if you know the components, you can easily tell the complex forms they comprise apart. That's what I've been saying all this time.

>You're learning how to guess what japanese sentences mean by inferring from the kanji in the sentence.

Yes. It's called "reading".

>>10805692
Being able to associate a character with a meaning is not the same as knowing kanji or a word. It is plainly wrong to claim so.

>>10805692
>That's what I've been saying all this time.
No it isn't. You've been saying to learn 2000 kanji without words.

>Yes. It's called "reading".
Then apparently I can read chinese. Cool, an extra language for my resume.

>>10805712
You might have attempted a joke, but all you did was betray you haven't seen a Chinese text in your life. No, you can't read it with any level of Japanese (alone).

>You've been saying to learn 2000 kanji without words.

No, I've been saying learning 2000 kanji is tantamount to learning 2000 words.

>>10805706
I do not subscribe to your semantics. Further discussion is impossible.

>>10805753
You've just changed your argument so many times it's impossible to counter anything, so I'll just summarize the main point.

If you know the english meaning of 2000 kanji, and no words, you won't be able to read shit. If you know the english meaning of 2000 kanji, and all the on/kun readings for all of them, you still won't be able to read shit, and you'll have spent a ton of extra time to get to that point that you could have spent reading instead.

If you want to learn a lot of kanji before starting to read, at least learn each one in a word. Any other way is a waste of time.

What flashcard decks am I supposed to be doing? Reading all of this debating has me so confused.

I've been doing vocab and kanji and I guess the kanji does feel a little pointless, but maybe I'm doing it wrong. I've memorized the appearance of most of these words by making weird little connections in my head that associate the appearance of the characters with the word so vocab is very easy, but I've heard so many conflicting opinions that I have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing with the kanji deck.

Do I try to memorize the meanings, memorize either the onyomi or kunyomi pronunciations or memorize both of them, memorize the jukugo words on the KD decks, memorize all of the above simultaneously or just throw the kanji deck out completely and do none of it?

This is so confusing.

>>10805954
Try everything and see what is the best for you

>>10805829
>You've just changed your argument so many times

Maybe that's because I was replying to different arguments you made?

>If you know the english meaning of 2000 kanji

...you know 2000 words. Or rather, you're halfway through learning them, but you still know just the right half to be able to read them.

>If you know the english meaning of 2000 kanji, and all the on/kun readings for all of them

...you know 5000+ words (don't quote me on the exact number), and you learned them with a fraction of effort you'd need to learn the same amount top-down. And then you can learn jukugo with the fraction of effort you'd need if you tried forcing your way through them without knowing kanji.

Whichever path you take (and it's not just the two, there are dozens of options lying in-between them), you can read much more much faster compared to someone who takes similar amount of time to memorize things out of the natural learning order.

>If you want to learn a lot of kanji before starting to read, at least learn each one in a word.

Unless you're doing something completely inane, you already do exactly this by the fact of learning them alone. And I'm inclined to believe that most of the complaints about learning kanji, or problems with putting it to good use, stem from not understanding that.

>>10799407
Wouldnt it spoil the enjoyment of reading a novel from having to stop to look up words and such? Seems more frustrating than conventional studying. Although it does interest me somewhat..

le fastest learning humanly possible is le best approach guys

>>10807220
Not the guy you're replying to, but I don't really see any better way to learn Japanese than by reading it. It gives you something concrete to attach a word to and builds your sense of collocation, which is absolutely critical to reading things smoothly (google it if you've never heard the term). It doesn't have to be a novel, necessarily, either. It can be a video game (RPG so it's text-heavy), a VN, or an LN. While it can be frustrating, if you pick something you're really interested in, you can work through the beginning period where you have to constantly refer to a dictionary.

So what are some easy VN to begin with?
I have the fear that I know to few vocab and kanjis to understand a VN

>>10807304
No matter what you read, you're going to encounter a hell of a lot you don't understand. Pick something light or comedic, preferably without heavy time travel or confusing plot. Above all, pick something you're actually interested in.

>>10807304
>I have the fear that I know to few vocab and kanjis to understand a VN
Don't worry too much. So what if you don't understand? Pick something that looks cute. And if you really suck, and it gets boring, skip everything that isn't voiced. Try to read along. That's what I did when I was a complete beginner.

>>10807304
http://tlwiki.org/index.php?title=VN/Eroge_Script_sizes
low unique kanji are usually easy.
as already mentioned no matter what you read you will have to look up shit.

>>10807309
>>10807342
>>10807374

thx so faw guys

>>10807374

fun thing is: if you order this list after unique kanji the first few are either about rape, a trap or loli

>>10807220
>conventional studying
What? Can you explain what 'conventional studying' would be? I seriously hope you don't say "go through x amount of words".

You can go through 10000 words that are completely out of context, start an eroge/LN/novel/etc and STILL have to look stuff up often. You are delusional if you think NOT reading will make you better at reading. There is no magical number of words that you stop at and you suddenly can read anything. "Learning japanese" is more like getting used to the language. What better way other than reading? Stop making excuses to avoid reading. I'm surprised people even say shit like this. Why are you even studying Japanese for in the first place? Is it not to consume otaku media?

"I just want to reduce the amount of times I have to look up words!"
You can get to this point by, you fucking guessed it, READING, and figuring it out from context.

>>10807304
Flyable heart

>>10807456
It's even worse when you see Japanese people trying to learn English. They cram vocab like there's nothing else to learn. It's sad.

>>10807374
>Unique kanji 3108
What the fuck

>>10807487
It's probably a lot of names.

>>10807457

downloading this right now. looks good. anyone can suggest a site where you can jap. VN?

>>10807509
You're a verb there.

>>10807456
Please don't assume I meant going through words out of context, I obviously mean studying sentences in anki or something. I can and do read as much as I am able outside of that, but here I was specifically talking about novels, as the previous post said it would be straight forward. Given some thought I've concluded something like a VN might be better suited for my level for the time being.

But yes, I understand reading is important. Please don't yell at me on the internet again. It's scary.

>>10793171

You can find recent anime subtitles here:
http://kitsunekko.net/

Use MPC-HC, find raw, play, drag subtitle to its window.

>>10807514

*download

when you change the region format from whatever you have to Japanese, how do you prevent it from altering the character encoding on 4chan and most sites? i like it how it is now and not how it is after

>>10807890
That shouldn't really make any difference for most web browsers. Are you talking about how \ becomes a yen sign in many applications?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y8tvgmRH1o

Listen! A british man is speaking!

It's official now. Don't learn kanji.

GET ME OFF THIS WILD RIDE
あああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああ

>>10807619
Yeah vn's are very useful for learning at an intermediate level, check out http://sukebei.nyaa.eu/ if you're the kind of horrible horrible person who pirates things.

>>10795547
The thread has people of different levels of Japanese.

It's hard to do much serious talk when people are too far above or below you. All you can really do is ask for advice or give advice. And that usually involves
> amazing charts/amount of words/maturity percent correct

>>10807509
http://sukebei.nyaa.eu/ has tons of raw vns/mangs etc.

>>10795547
So you basically want this?

>>10808393
The OP in that thread just seems like a complete prick.

>>10808420
/jp/ circa 2009, pricklier than 2013.

>>10807936
no i'm talking about this.

i like the left (english region) to the right (japanese region). i just want the text to not change. i can adjust it with character encoding but then japanese text becomes mojibake.

its the option you change under 'region and language' 'format' and i think it happens when you change your entire OS language to japanese.

i hope this was more clear.

>>10808677
I've always had my locale in Japanese for every computer I've had in the last 5 years and I've never had it change the fonts to look like the right. Does this happen in every browser?

>>10808677
Better question, what exactly did you change in region and language? The only thing you should have to change is your system locale, not your format or anything else.

>>10808685
it only happens when you change the format to japanese. i'm not talking about locale.
>>10808692
i changed the format to japanese. if there's no way around it i'll just leave it as english but i was curious if there was a way to do what i explained above.

>>10808728
What do you want your whole OS in Japanese for anyway?

There's probably a way around it, but it might be hard to find, because Japanese people do not really care about what font English is in, and few other people actually switch their OS into Japanese.

>>10808728
I have no idea what you're talking about when you refer to format. Switching your OS to japanese, switching the programs to the Japanese versions will not do that. You did something weird and unnatural, go back to regular english default, only change your OS language and programs and your done.

>>10795547
I'll sort of agree with >>10808363
Though let me add that it's not about circlejerking only, but everytime we have that kind of thread I notice that "elitists" tends to brush off any anon not being at their level.

Of course, I'm not saying that we should do all the work for lazy people, but fact is, most of the time if someone ask a question we can be sure that people will just answer their typical : "Go google it/ Go read a book/ And fuck off".

I've been learning Japanese for quite some time, but since my kanji level is terrible I just usually avoid such threads.

>>10808788
I'm happy to answer any questions, but I can't stand it when people just post "What does xxx mean?"

Either xxx is something really simple that could be looked up easily, or it's something contextual, and they've cut off all context. The latter one is especially infuriating. If something is really bothering you, enough to make a post about it, why not offer up every bit of information you can?

>>10808788
Getting people to find their own answers is infinitely more valuable than anything else. When it comes to reccomendations and that sort of things, questions are fair game, but when you're asking for specific facts replying with it doesn't help them.

>>10808804
>If something is really bothering you, enough to make a post about it, why not offer up every bit of information you can?
Yeah I agree.

It is sort of like they didn't put in any real thought into the question and just want to be spoonfed. If someone puts a lot of effort into their question I'll at least try to help them.

>>10805580
Yes you can. Stop being dumb.

>>10809726
Let's make a test. You choose a set of words you claim a person can learn in a week (you don't have to list them, something like "first 300 words from the Core decks" will suffice) I'm choosing a news article, 2ch/futaba thread and a manga page. You explain how much you managed to understand using only the words you chose. Deal?

>>10809773
It's called using a dictionary. A good time to start is when you can understand 10% it will increase as time goes on. By the time the other person is done "learning kanji" you will be at about 50% comprehension and grammar won't feel as hard while they are still at 0%.

>>10809799
Nah, the best time to start is 0%. By the time that other person learns a few hundred words, you'll be reading XIX century Japanese poetry.

>>10809842
>XIX century Japanese poetry
Soon.

Just bought the Anki app. :)

ITT: People who are angry that they wasted time on kanji so they try and convince everyone else it was worth it.

I heard consuming the semen from Japanese men will help you learn Japanese better.

>>10809882
ITT: People who are angry that they wasted time on not learing kanji so they try to* convince everyone else it was worth it.

>>10809882
>>10810108
ITT: trolls

>>10810108
Except I'm fluent in Japanese are you aren't.

This is bit off-topic but is anyone of you familiar with this app:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.japanactivator.android.jasensei&hl=en

This is any good for learning Japanese?

i've learned around 600/2100 of my kanji with fair retention and want to go full autism mode and grind the rest just to have it finally finished.

the cards i'm using only shows the most common onyomi because that's all I have trouble with, i'm pretty confident with most verbs but compound kanji words are horrible.

is this going to work /jp/? if I get up early tomorrow and start tonight I can get 15 hours worth of practice in. the retention rate is usually good because the program i'm using repeats itself so much.

and no I can't do 'just a few a day'. that makes me really nervous for some reason. what if I forget or just stop doing it at all?

>>10810479
Grinding 24/7 won't help you to learn. Learning takes time. Accept it and learn it like you should.

>>10810567
it's just not fast enough. i've been doing this a year and still need to look up every other word.

mind you it's probably my fault, just like the argument beforehand I didn't learn kanji until later and it's without question the hardest thing.

>>10810161
Go work on your English then.

>>10810634
Who needs English?

So I have a google chrome add on which automaticcly translates kanjis for me when I mouse over them. Is there such a thing for your desktop or any program you are currently running? I would like to have sucha program for unknown kanjis or words when im reading a VN

>>10810766
http://code.google.com/p/interactive-text-hooker/

>>10810766
There are text hookers for games. Then there is always the good old IME pad.

What's the best plan of attack for learning kanji, anyways. I've been thinking learning 20 new kanji every other day, and reviewing ones that I've already learned every day with one off day on the weekend. Anyone do anything like this?

>>10810766
Why do still use shitty browsers?

>>10810885
Just use Anki dude. That's literally what this thread is about,.

I feel it's easier to just read from untranslated books/etc. and look up any word that I don't know rather than straight up flashcards. Flashcards always just get overwhelming and become burdensome for me. I feel like I memorize more if I just keeping coming across the same word in a text than in a deck.

>>10810933

That's what I intend to do, did you read what I said? I'm talking more about the pattern of study, rather than method.

>>10810885
Learn what about Kanji?
Recognition - learn by radicals, build from smaller parts
Meaning - best done with example words
Onyomi - can be done by itself, with meaning, or with words
Kunyomi - with words in context
Writing - after recognition, practice, either by actual writing, palm/air writing, mental visualization

Use SRS for efficient use of time.

>>10810943

Everything but writing, my intention is reading comprehension more than anything else.

Though, that's not the point. I've already got the method I intend to use, but the study pattern is what I'm wondering about. "How much is too much, how much is too little."

Of course it's subjective, but it's nice to get an idea of what others do so I know where best to start.

Any sites that have direct downloads for VNs of low level?

>>10810966
Japan, if by ``download'' you mean ``install from a disk found at a used games store.''

>>10810953
I'm doing 10 new everyday now. I used to do a lot more but I'm at 3500+ now and I find vocab more rewarding. I add the vocab from things I read so it can range from a few words everyday to 150 when I'm reading novels. I'm at around 21,000 words/phrases now. I can read some manga easily, and I haven't read anything for a while where I'm completely lost.

>>10810953
>>10811023
Oh, and time-wise my reviews generally take around 20 minutes.

>>10811023

Cool. How long have you been studying to get to that point? I'm aiming for that level of comprehension in 12 months.

>>10811023
When did you start learning?

>>10810935
Yeah well Anki requires you to do it daily. So like I said just use Anki it's easier.

So I started learning Japanese have all the Kana down no problem. Started reading Genki and am having difficulty with the verb conjugation chapter. The book makes it confusing as fuck

>>10811091
>>10811094
5 months. Months don't really matter though. I just read a lot of Japanese, School's out in here so I have a lot of time.

>>10811108
くいて　ぐいで
うつるって
ぬぶむんで
すして

するして　くるきて
いくて
なで

>>10811108
Guide to Japanese.

>>10811116
Which Nama sensei video is that from?

Can I start learning grammar from decks or do I need to go through something like Tae Kim's and then just review in anki?

I don't like reading books, they feel intimidating.

>>10811770
Just do what your heart tells you to do.

>>10811115
Holy shit. You essentially did 150words/day in five months? And you do your daily reviews and learning in 20 minutes? Not to mention who knows how many kanji you do as well.

Can you post your deck life graphs for kanji and vocabulary? I want to see a geniuses work.

>>10812009
/pol/-San please don't.

Why do people bother with learning stroke order?

Who even uses pencils anymore?

>>10812094
I have a genuine interest in kanji and calligraphy.

>>10812094
Because when you're dealing with anything small/pixelated/in a font you're not used to you're shit out of luck unless you know stroke order. Plus it helps you differentiate similar primitives.

>>10812094
I heard that many character recognition systems you may encounter in public terminals and computers throughout Japan still cannot recognize kanji if you don't get the stroke order right.

How do I form a plain verb in the past progressive tense?
Like " I was watching T.V."

>>10812220
You mean Vて＋いる?
E.g. テレビを見ていた。

>>10812225
So that's like " I was watching T.V ( in the past)"?

>>10812225
So 見ていた Is " was watching" and 見た is "watched"?

>>10812225
電視をじっと見た。

I did my reps OP.

Still have so much to learn. I love Japan!

>>10812225

what does 見ていた mean? Ive only learned so far that the past tense from 見る is 見た

>>10812265
Yes. I suggest that you look up the the formation of the te-form of the verb. By the way, I just realized that it may be better to use 観る when you are referring to watching television. Also, >>10812263 must be smarter than me and suggesting something better, because I didn't even know the word 電視!

>>10812447
Thank you.