/jp/ - Otaku Culture

... the otaking!!

WHERE DO I BEGIN?

A decent bit. I have interest in most things /jp/ discusses.

Very far away.

Not answering for now.

You can mock me for replying, I don't really mind.

I'm not an otaku.

I'm only 8 can I be Otaking?

I'm 41, turning 42 january 30.

>As master morality originates in the strong, slave morality originates in the weak. Because slave morality is a reaction to oppression, it villainizes its oppressors. Slave morality is the inverse of master morality. As such, it is characterized by pessimism and cynicism. Slave morality is created in opposition to what master morality values as 'good'. Slave morality does not aim at exerting one's will by strength but by careful subversion. It does not seek to transcend the masters, but to make them slaves as well. The essence of slave morality is utility:[5] the good is what is most useful for the whole community, not the strong. Nietzsche saw this as a contradiction. Since the powerful are few in number compared to the masses of the weak, the weak gain power by corrupting the strong into believing that the causes of slavery (viz., the will to power) are 'evil', as are the qualities they originally could not choose because of their weakness. By saying humility is voluntary, slave morality avoids admitting that their humility was in the beginning forced upon them by a master. Biblical principles of turning the other cheek, humility, charity, and pity are the result of universalizing the plight of the slave onto all humankind, and thus enslaving the masters as well.

>/jp/

i'm 15 years old and have an obsession for 80s moe

I want to be the Otakest.

>>10357956
i honestly think that cells look better than the digitally colored frames now. sure, they're outdated but i think it looks nicer.

>>10357446
I'm otakool

six years away from my wizard license

soon.

I'm a 4chan level otaku

>>10357930
COOOOOL

tell a story!!!!

>>10357994
What's up with this new Persona?

How many hours of sleep per night did you get during your teens?

I would be so soft...

>>10357994
What can I say... All started back in 1988 when I was working part-time at BlockBuster Video, some dudes induced me into anime, the first one I saw was Saint Seiya and I didn't liked, the one who really liked was Maple Town Monogatari, since then I started to buy tapes to some kind of japanese mafia, they also started to sell anime with subtitles and they were really expensive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILjQOyeRffs

>>10358028
omega kakkoi

you were in the mafia?

saw dead bodys and stuff?

who was the dudes?

>>10358028
That was really cute

I'm a 4chan level otaku. I don't talk with you chumps in anime club, I don't read your "anime magazine" with new releases I saw two years ago. I don't need to go to a club full of fat smelly people to watch Full Metal Alchemist all over again. I've got fuckin' live feed torrents of the newest animes you haven't even hear of, and figures from said anime being shipped to my house so I can masturbate on them. Go read your "yowie" on fanfiction.net, I'm downloading loli dojinshi and reading the fucking raws.

You keep wearing your naruto headbands and shit, socializing with your weeaboo friends. I'll be walking by, Anonymous. You'll never know that the master of anime had passed you by, because I suppress my power level.

17
232 VNs read, 30~ in backlog
90 days of anime watched
Learned jap just to play VNs

>>10358055
No, I was not in the mafia, at that time the only way to watch recent anime was by buying tapes, I didn't saw any dead body.

The dudes were my workmates back in the day, we used to watch all movies and cartoons.

>>10358058
It's almost impossible to watch it now, same thing happened to The Kabocha Wine and High School Kimengumi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVa6PTlyCxw

I didn't start trying to be an "Otaking" till I was 19.

Probably one of the biggest mistakes I ever made. I honestly envy the people that started their "Japan obsession" early on in their lives, at least they were able to familiarize themselves with a some franchises/series. The amount of anime and Tokusatsu alone I need to watch is absurd. Gaining hobbies later in your life seems impossible.

can't say how far I am but I remember that the first galaxy express 999 movie was the one of the earliest i remember watching. ive been hiding this disgusting interest in public for years but occasionally i would bring it up in hopes of finding a friend with mutual interests.

i still have no friends.

>>10358159
It's easy to find a friend with mutual interests. The thing being hard is finding a friend that are at a similiar level as you.

At least when you're like me and have wasted over 10000 hours+ on the medium, along with the knowledge of Japanese.

>>10358159
I understand how you feel. And anybody who actually shares my interest are idiots.

>>10358124
Even if somebody started at a young age, it's impossible to experience everything.

>>10358124
I started at quite a young age and I'm still young compared to a few who have posted. I must agree with you. Especially in america, tolerance isn't that high. A lot of people think I'm weird because I watch "chinese cartoons" or whatever.
Not releasing my age of course.

>>10358124
I actually went through a sort of "anti-weeaboo" phase where I tried to hate Japan and everything from it or something and I cannot remember why. A lot of my games came from over there, though, so I started playing FPSes and RTSes all day instead. There came a point when I realized that there was no reason behind it, none at all that I could find, and I caved.

>>10358236
I've known people like that. My MMO buddy is somewhat anti weeaboo. He knows I am, but neither of us bring it up, so we can play in peace.

>>10358249
Does he have a reason behind it? Is there a story or is it just some nondescript and largely aimless teenage angst?

>>10358236
I was like that for most of high school. It depresses me because my brother was into the stuff I like now at the time and I just shunned him.

>>10358255
He claims 90% of the stuff that comes from japan is porn, and anime is for kids and whatnot. Some of it I'm sure is aimless teenage angst.

>>10358261
Maybe he feels he has something to prove. I went through a hardcore wapanese phase prior to that, complete with the whole katana > bullet thing, and at a guess I "may" have been trying to distance myself from, well, myself. But that was years ago and another person so I could be wrong.

>>10358267
Perhaps.
I'm not quite as hardcore, I can at least stop me from deluding myself.

>>10358269
Really? You don't think back and find memories that are completely unrelatable?

>>10358174
Nice to know I'm not the only one that feels this way.

>>10358274
I'm sure there are things that have happened like that, but I can't recall such memories.

>>10358281
There was a point where I also denied that they existed, but I have since written them off as being another person entirely.

>>10358284
I remember I used to be really into sports, and outside activity when I was about 9-10. I acted so much different then than I do know. But I suppose that might just be growing up.

You're not an otaku until you own everything on this list.

>>10358345
I lol'd

>>10358345
>>10358357
How long until someone get wind of this and take it seriously to be otacool?

I like the fujoshi version too.

>>10358345
lol?

>>10358369
It'll happen

>>10358345
>pimp chalice
i hope they do this again

>>10358369
When people were asking why /jp/ doesn't have any charts recently, Gomenasai, but told them that we do and counted this one among the charts that aren't obvious troll charts.

>>10358401
I like this.

>>10357963
I think Mobile Suit Gundam has better art than the majority of digitally coloured anime.

>>10358261
>90% of the stuff that comes from japan is porn
>anime is for kids
So almost all anime is porn and it's all for kids?

>>10358274
I watched a lot of cartoons when I was young, maybe 30-40 hours a week. I transitioned in my teens to anime. I've never changed.

>>10358440
Yeah! Don't you let your kids watch porn?
But yeah, my friend's words not mine.

>>10358345
This is a really nice troll picture

>>10358093
anything crazy happen in blockbuster/

busting blocks

tell exciting story about subtitle vhs anime

did you ever meet girl otaku in real life?

>>10357930
Orange Road? You have good taste, grandpa.

>>10357930
Are you feeding your kids modern otaku culture like mahoyo, k-on or steins;gates?

>>10358495
>kids
How on earth could he have kids?

>>10358510
Everyone over the age of 35 has kids.

>>10358478
Nothing crazy, no robbery, no fire everywhere, kinda boring.

Girls who like anime, yes. Otaku girls, never.

The first VHS tape subtitled that I got was Candy Candy, the second was Lady Oscar, in the 90's was a lot easier to get subbed tapes and some companies started to own anime licences, but masterpieces like Yawara never saw the light here.

>>10358483
It's funny because I don't have children.

>>10358522
you're on /jp/

>>10358510
Why not?
He seems like a perfectly fine gentleman with normal hobby.

>>10357930
yet you picked DARLING bitch who ruined orange road and not madoka. shit taste

>>10358028
>>10357930
Wait, if I do the calculation right
2012 - 42 = 1970
You get into anime when you are 18?
So 24years of consuming japanese entertainment? How? What do people like you actually do when there wasnt any internet back then.

>>10358524
Did you watch NGE when it came out? What did you think of it then and how have your views of it changed?

1979-1991 was the golden age of anime, anything after that was shit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJHEdrqCC40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M39NJPbtPgk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sken4RHX9FY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY5qQRmGgNA
They just dont know how to use the medium right anymore and 24 eps is too short to give any emotion with the characters and setting.

>>10358552
The golden age of anime started Apr 7, 1979. Never forget.

>>10358552
LOGH ended in 1997. If you think it's shit please kill yourself out of /jp/

>>10358560
It started in the 80s and the books where done in the 80s, its a 80s show.

>>10358552
What if I dont like mecha?

>>10358566
then you have shit taste sadly because you hate the best plot and setting anime had to offer. plus the 80s had the best romance and mature setting because of the art style and age of the characters.

>>10358536
Madoka is my favorite KOR, this is a trace I made, I know is bad so please be gentle.

>>10358541
Magazines, mostly from Europe, featuring anime that I never saw like Dirty Pair, City Hunter, Gundam and Patlabor, people used to put their mails there to get friends.

When I started it was a rare hobby so there wasn't too much stuff to buy, I made my first e-mail account in 1994 and I used to post in some forums back then.

>>10358551
That's a funny question, maybe 1996 - 1997 because it wasn't a big hit in the first airing, It was the first anime that I had to watch twice because I didn't get so much stuff, as for me is good but not a masterpiece.

Good old days-kun has arrived. Abandon thread.

>>10358572
>80s had the best romance and mature setting
That is a downright lie.
I watched KOR and Maison Ikkoku, you can hardly called them the peak of romance and mature setting.
Besides you can hardly called teenagers piloting giant robots saving the world "mature".

>>10358576
who the HELL cares bloglord fuck off

>Dirty Pair
I wish Dirty Pair spammer would spam more Dirty Pair.

He almost got me to watch it.

Being Otaking takes more than watching a lot of anime. It takes submersing yourself into the culture completely. He built models, cosplayed, took part in a club, joined the industry, etc. He is the Otaking because he earned that title.


With that said, I am very far from being Otaking myself. 23, have watched quite a bit of anime, if I do say so myself, recently started teaching myself Japanese, but suck at model building (well, at painting them), don't cosplay (and don't plan to), and would not join an anime club if they paid me (at least as we have them in the US, maybe other country's anime clubs are better.)

>>10358552
Why doesn't modern mecha pay attention to the mechanical details like they did back then? I was watching that Macross OP and the way they focused on the plane's wheel turning as it was getting ready to take off... compare that to Gundam AGE. Just, ugh.

I guess we still have Unicorn...

>>10358644
Modern mecha is about the bodysuits.

>>10358644
macross zero has pretty cool mechanical details though.

>>10358644
Strike Witches does.

>>10358663
me on the floor

>>10358576
Go watch Dirty Pair, it's fun.
Also I hope you have watched Bubblegum Crisis.

I

I-I-I-I a

I am o-o-o

I-I-I am Otaking be

I am otaking because

I I SIad
I

I said so

>>10358675
I've already seen those, when I said never saw I was referring back then because I didn't had the tapes.

It looks like my nokosage script went nuts.

>>10358691
Who the HELL are you anyway?

>>10358585
uh yeah Maison Ikkoku really was the best romance anime had to offer.
>Besides you can hardly called teenagers piloting giant robots saving the world "mature".
A robot has nothing to do with the seriousness of the character and setting, its like saying lord of the rings, starwars, star trek are immature. As for anime today its fucking no where near as mature as it was in the 80s characters,setting,development,etc, you have to be a retard not to see that.

>>10358585
>Besides you can hardly called teenagers piloting giant robots saving the world "mature".
thats where your wrong, most of the main characters were old in their 20s, votoms,logh, and plenty other. Also character development was taken far more seriously and with detail. the characters felt alive, or much more alive then anime of today. Maison Ikkoku is the best romance , for anime just because of that. the characters personalities,the time and setting and the development.

>>10358752
>>10358745
Also lets not forget the fucking high school bullshit didn't start yet, so instead of 15 year olds we where getting actual fucking plot and setting of variety with different age classes. And the reason why the characters felt more real was because stereotypes and annoying otaku who hate change or women with personally didn't exist.

>>10358745
>>10358752
>>10358759
Stop using up all the bandwidth dude

>>10358745
>>10358752
Lets not pretend that Gundam and its assortment of its clone didnt exist in the 80s and how most of them were made to sell toys.
You have to remember how people were complaining about the anime industrydying until anno released NGE that spawned all the high school boy bullshit you see now.

>>10358786
The anime industry wasn't dying, it died because of NGE in the fucking end, it turned everything to shit. Actually otaku had a fucking ball in the 80s, it wasn't until the late 90 and 2000s everything went to high school this and cheesy 15 year old romance this over and over again. if you want immature retarded shit, you watch anime from 2000 and up. If you want realistic characters over the age of 15 with romance you can believe, you watch macross ,Maison Ikkoku, or votoms, etc,etc.

>>10358860
I don't think Anime from the old days is necessarily superior. Different, sure, but not superior. I find those school-life series like Azumanga Daiou, Hidamari Sketch, Mitsudomoe, Nichijou, Pani Poni Dash and Sketchbook really enjoyable. Sure, there's a lot of shit, but such was the case in the 80s too. Not to mention that the 21st century isn't completely devoid of decent, mature, non-school-life Anime. Did you think Planetes was bad?

>>10358860
What is mushishi, spice and wolf, akagi, kaiji, KGNE, tatami galaxy, honey & clover,etecetec
Anime have never been this diverse.
You have gotta take off your nostalgia google.
There are more to anime than do you remember love.

>>10358124
You're meant to watch for enjoyment, not to rack up entries on MyAnimeList, for heaven's sake.

There is absolutely nothing else to gain from spending thousands of hours watching a screen.

>>10358124
The more you watch/play a medium, the less fun it gets.

I have no idea why everyone seems to want to rush to the state where you've seen 300 shows and everything ends up feeling the same.

>>10358576
Which one was more confusing, EVA or akira?

>>10358572
Enjoy your shitty monster of the week shit LEL.

>>10358495
>modern otaku culture
>like mahoyo, k-on or steins;gates?

Does not compute

>>10358644

This.

It's because modern anime doesn't accomodate otaku anymore. People think otaku prefer shows with cute girls, but this is largely a myth created by densha otoko and taken up by childish wannabes.

Otaku come from the era of cram-style education of the 1980s, when they were taught to cram and remember contextless facts in order to prepare them for exams. For this reason, otaku have always been information junkies seeking out the tiniest pieces of information no matter how irrelevant or contextless it may seem.

Modern anime only caters to the wannabe otaku who think being otaku is about collecting figures and playing eroge, that's why mecha shows concentrate more on the characters than they do the technical details of the mechs.

>>10359564
Why wouldn't it?

>>10359572
Stop living in a fantasy world created by yourself and face reality.

>>10359601
Not him, but I fail to see any reason to do that. We live the way we want. Go force your own views of reality elsewhere.

>>10359601

My post is reality. Find another bandwagon to jump on, Choo-worshipping scum

>>10359609
Didn't you read his post? He's doing that very thing. He likes 80s mecha, fair enough. But he shouldn't push it as the only "true otaku" form of entertainment just because of that.

>>10359613
What are you doing on a board centering around Touhou and eroge if it's beneath you?
There's always >>>/m/

>>10359622
Ah, I guess I misinterpretated his post then.

>>10359622
>He likes 80s mecha
>But he shouldn't push it as the only "true otaku" form of entertainment

Total number of conclusion jumps: 2

Otaku is otaku, you can't change that. Nobody is stopping you from enjoying your anime but it doesn't and will never have anything to do with otaku culture.

What's the requirement to be an otaku? Does living for 25 years without even holding a girl's hand once count?
I also watch lots of anime

>>10359629
>Total number of conclusion jumps: 2

If you're criticizing his reasoning, don't prove him right in the next paragraph.

>>10359672

I'm not wrong, I only state fact.

>>10359674
There's nothing wrong with liking 80s mecha, but if the very topics this board centers around are beneath you, why bother posting here?
"Otaku" only applying to mecha enthusiasts is so blatantly wrong anyway.

>>10359699
>"Otaku" only applying to mecha enthusiasts is so blatantly wrong anyway.

Where did I say this?

Where did I imply I only liked 80s mecha?

In fact, where did I say anything about 80s mecha at all? Where did I say that the topics this board centers around are beneath me?

All I have done is state the definition of otaku and what otaku really means. I'm not saying otaku are limited in their interests, I'm just saying that the true meaning and connotations behind the word and culture of otaku has absolutely nothing to do with shows about cute girls.

>>10359763
Is it possible to be an eroge otaku?

>>10358345
Where does one get anime friend's like Thad?

>>10359771

Your nearest prison.

>>10359763
What if you're obsessed with gathering information about cute girls shows?

>>10359778
Because he's black or because he's a pedophile?

>>10359783
the latter

>>10359777
This may just be a joke, but you have a point.

If you just watch some SoL anime, then you're just some guy who watches anime sometimes.

If you watch the anime, read the manga and light novels and all spinoffs, listen to the drama CDs, download the soundtracks, follow doujin releases and know a ton of obscure facts about your favorite SoL franchise, then you're probably closer to an otaku.

It's not just about liking things, it's about liking them obsessively.

>>10359783
both

>>10359794
I'm pretty much like that, but I've thought this was more because of my OCD than anything else. And you know, isn't this pretty close to the usual definition of otaku? A crazy obsession with a specific hobby. Picture very much related.

>>10359794
I was going to reply to your earlier posts with shitposting, but this one made much, much more sense instead of being painfully autistic.
>>10359805
Military less harmfull than history and musical instrument.
This is some /e/p/i/c/ trollchat /b/rot. :wink:

Official guide on how to be OTACOOL™®

>>10359833
It's a Futaba chart. You can't take them seriously most of the time.

>>10359908
Fitlhy capitalist scum.

>>10359908

i actually have a mirai wall scroll. i wanted it because its very orange.

i dont even know who this mirai girl is, i just see her get referenced in a random anime occasionally

>>10359833
By "harmful" they mean "inconveniences others."

>>10359908
Please say that whole thing is being facetious.

Please.

>>10359934
I'd say it's a parody of what he implies about how otaku should act like. But honestly, I buy stuff from GSC. What's the problem with them?

>>10359943
Perhaps "whole" was not the right word.

I have nothing against GSC.

>>10359908
Is this real? What the fuck?

>>10359572
You're absolutely wrong. You have obviously read cjas.org/~leng/otaku-e.htm and are trying to solely apply it to the pre-millennial visual culture. How can you blatantly ignore the fact that modern anime also facilitates 'information gathering'? I can't imagine why you people keep on biasingly justifying the superiority of older anime. Are you trying to prove something?

I can't comprehend what kind of state your mind has to be in to post something like that. Especially with regards to the foregone discussion in this thread.

>>10359794
It wasn't a joke. It was a so-called rhetorical question. And yes, he has a point, that's the point.

But wait, whatever, I get it. "Otaku" means "autist". Our board's name was actually closer to the truth that we all thought all this time.

>>10359833
Politics not craziest and most harmful of all. That should be the biggest tell something's not right.

ageru!

c-c--c-c-c--cc-combo breaker!!!

>>10359908
Other chart is funnier.

>>10359934
>>10359981
It's pretty obviously a joke, morons.

>>10360095
They're second place. Big fucking deal.

>>10359943

I don't think many people have a problem with GSC but Danny Choo works for GSC and pretty much uses his 'Otaking' image to push their goods despite not knowing anything about the characters.

The whole chart is just a big mockery of the kind of faggotry you'll find if you follow Choo's antics. Just look at his blog if you really want to see a money grabbing Jew.

>>10360326
I'm not an Otaku. I don't even know why I come here anymore.

>>10360331
To shitpost?

>>10359998
>cjas.org/~leng/otaku-e.htm
It's funny how people can write so much about a topic they're clueless about.
Powerlevel threads make much more sense than this.
On which occasion was this written?

>>10360337
Why is that thesis wrong, though? What are your arguments against it? Honestly, they look kinda convincing. Kinda.

>>10360336
I don't shitpost. I just like the community, I haven't been 'otaku' for at least a year.

>>10359998

>>10359998
>You're absolutely wrong.

No I am not. Would you like to prove otherwise with your fictitious definition of otaku that suits your own lifestyle?

>How can you blatantly ignore the fact that modern anime also facilitates 'information gathering'?

Where does it? The closest thing in recent memory has been Mouretsu Pirates, which wasn't really geared for that anyway.

> I can't imagine why you people keep on biasingly justifying the superiority of older anime.

I like the way you use 'you people' to make blanket statements about something you don't agree with. Not to mention you leapt to another conclusion there too.

Do you make money from this? Jumping to conclusions, I mean. Or let me guess, you're one of those people who will entirely judge and collectively group others based on one or two traits without hearing the full story.

>I can't comprehend what kind of state your mind has to be in to post something like that. Especially with regards to the foregone discussion in this thread.

Logical fallacies. Ah, the good old "talk down" approach. You know, people that have been on the internet for years can see straight through comments like those.

>>10360337

See:

>>10360340

He is right, this is what 'otakuism' is all about. Shows like Welcome to the NHK and Genshiken have somewhat skewed the idea of otaku over the years, and people will latch on to a label which is easier for them to fit in.

Look at it from an idiot's point view, of 'How to be an otaku':

>Be obsessed with tiny insignificant details because you have a horrifically obsessive interest in your particular subject

I can't do that! That takes work!

>Download a few anime in seconds using torrent programs and spend money on figures and merchandise

That's easy! Now I can be otaku!

The problem isn't just which one of those choices they prefer, it's the fact that they are basically looking for a way to 'be otaku'. Wannabes, it's what ruins any subculture.

>>10360348
You are a /jp/ otaku.

Don't try to deny it. I bet you have a limited edition Currybutt figure and a whole stack of Zun!bar trading cards.

>>10360363
You're falling into the otakuism = capitalism trap.
If he was a /jp/ otaku, he would know every little detail about /jp/. All the popular images and kopipes, the way the political structure has changed over the years, etc.

>>10360374
Shut up

>>10360337
>cjas.org/~leng/otaku-e.htm

That was a good read actually, it makes a lot of sense when you put it in context with Akihabara and even some of the idol otaku. If you go to the electronics parts shops in Akiba the range is amazing, there are fat overweight neckbearded Japanese in their big puffer jackets debating with their friends which tiny component will be best for their case fan grill piece or something because apparently there's a huge difference between 15.5mm and 16mm.

It's like super anal retentive version of autist pick n mix with components. I'd say /g/ would be jealous but I don't think /g/ is even on their level.

>>10360349
My definition of Otaku is in no way fictitious. I've read that thesis, and if you base your definition upon it, I disagree that only the pre-millenial fans are qualified for that term. I honestly don't care if I'm worthy of being called otaku or not. It's an invective for christ's sake.

You'll find that there are loads of information to be gathered on any school-life anime. Notably character traits and relations. There's sometimes even a massive infodump containing blood types, bust sizes and favorite colors. 'Information gathering' is a very vague term, I don't think it's fair to limit it in such a way that you do.

I used the term 'you people' to refer to the numerous posters here that desperately tries to convince that their 80s anime is better and that modern anime has gone down the drain, turned into shit, is worthless, doesn't accomodate otaku anymore, etc. I'm not jumping to conclusions. This is a simple impression I've gained.

>>10360337
It's funny how people can make contentless posts about a topic they don't know shit about.

>>10360411
>You'll find that there are loads of information to be gathered on any school-life anime. Notably character traits and relations. There's sometimes even a massive infodump containing blood types, bust sizes and favorite colors.

That's standard of almost any series, hardly a 'massive infodump', they provide that kind of information with the most basic of eroge. It's hardly comparable to hardbound books being released dedicated solely to blueprints of crafts, mechs, technology.

Shit, even Multi from ToHeart got an unofficial/official doujin outlying all her operating system specifics, and that's about as 'School life' as you're going to get.

Anime now doesn't accommodate for otaku, it accommodates for consumers who want to buy figures, that's not the same thing as otaku at all. The reasoning for this is that the amount of information, facts and the figures are not the same; and by the longest accepted cultural definition, this is the meat and potatoes that characterizes otaku.

The word otaku hasn't always been invective either, that's the mid-90s definition. It was never acceptable to be otaku, but the word itself also wasn't originally an invective either.

>>10360411
>You'll find that there are loads of information to be gathered on any school-life anime.

You're still missing the point. It's not like there are K-On otaku or Azumanga otaku or something similar for each show. There are anime otaku who have thousands of shows to watch. And, for fucks sake, even the lowest level idiots from /a/ with their numerical scores for anime in their MAL accounts fit the definition. (No-one ever said otaku needs to be intelligent. Just obsessed.)

I'm a semantics otaku, I've read numerous dictionaries in many languages and have argued about thousands of words on the internet already, and let me tell you, >>10360349 and his ilk are the sole most stupid people I have ever encountered arguing semantics. It's like they honestly don't realize you can invest your time and effort into literally anything.

>>10360411
>My definition of Otaku is in no way fictitious.

So what exactly is your definition and under what justification is it not fictitious? We have a thesis here you seem to be arguing against, you haven't even managed to refute why it's 'shit' either.

>>10360465
>There are anime otaku who have thousands of shows to watch. And, for fucks sake, even the lowest level idiots from /a/ with their numerical scores for anime in their MAL accounts fit the definition.

I'd have to disagree here, a real otaku has seen thousands of shows and will know almost everything there is to know about them. /a/ are 'anime fans' at best. They won't watch something unless they can talk about it with other /a/ users, that's what drives most anime fans away from that place, it's awful.

There are definitely otaku for individual shows though, there were ToHeart otaku...there were also otaku for Chobits and Fruits Basket who were obsessed with the workings of persocoms and the zodiac curse respectively. Not to mention the obvious examples such as Evangelion.

At which point of obsession can one be called otaku?

>>10360467
Allow me to answer. Otaku is a Japanese word for geek. That's also how everyone uses it around here.

I'm not even sure where your strawman definition of otaku having anything to do with anime (other than the fact that one can be anime otaku) came from and why are you arguing it on a board that has nothing to do with anime in the first place.

>>10360487
>Otaku is a Japanese word for geek.

Colloquially this is totally wrong, take a look at otaku culture and then take a look at western 'geek' culture (Even ignoring the recent bastardization of it), there's a huge difference.

The nearest translation of otaku might be 'Geek' but really it's closer to Anorak or maniac.

Since the 1970s the Japanese 'Otaku' has been defined this way, just because you discovered it in the last 10 years or so doesn't mean that your definition suddenly trumps everyone else's.

What would you know about being otaku anyway? You're clearly not an anime otaku because you've already been schooled a few times in this thread about it already.

>>10360481

Yeah you guys really seam knowledgeable about TRUEotaku.
Do any of you guys consider yourselves otaku? What did you do to become one?

>>10360505

lol i'm an otaku i've played total war: shogun 2 for 100+ hours

>>10360505
I'm an otaku otaku. I obsessively study and gather information about all different kinds of otaku, where they come from, how they behave, the things they collect, things like that.

Actually that's a load of shit I just wanted to say it.

I wonder if there are otaku otaku out there.

to be honest I have to agree with anyone who says anime sucks at the moment (but I'm not talking about the 80s) even moe anime sucks nowadays, it makes me sick watching it.

watch Comic Party and then watch Comic Party Revolution...the difference between those shows is the difference between watching a show from 2006 and watching a show from 2012, even though both shows were before that period.

suddenly the whole direction of the series changed, it became a patronising comedy with annoying characters and unfunny cliches. One minute Sendo and Mizuki are only just getting used to the idea of doujinshi, then in Revolution suddenly it's 'SENDO KUN NO BAKAAAA' and everything is moe moe pagyu pagyu. what the fuck happened.

>>10360510
I'm an otaku otaku otaku. I gather all kinds of information wherever they may be about you and other similar otaku otaku friends.

>>10360467
>>10360487
>strawman definition

That might have been unclear. I mean the definition you argue against, as an opposition to the one you present as one, true and correct.

>>10360476
Have you seen the work /a/ has done on Madoka? I'd be the last to praise that board under normal circumstances, but I try to be a honest person and give credit where credit is due - it was a wonderful and extremely productive display of autism. It easily dwarfs everything you could ever squeeze out of Chobits or Fruits Basket (both post-2000 anime themselves, by the way).

And no, I don't think any of them thinks of themselves as "Madoka otaku". Not then, not now. Maybe in fifteen years, when it grows into an Eva-scale franchise. Just as you say, they were just anime fans who banded together at that specific time of their autism quest through the medium.

>>10360512
I miss the days when 2D could be 2D unironically.

>>10360510

Someone who has memorized everything by Toshio Okada and 電波男 from cover to cover?

>>10360528

that's a good way to sum it up, the days when anime characters could act like anime characters without trying to be anime characters. Maybe AI will fix this problem.

>>10360512
YY is a fucking masterpiece and you know it.

>>10360512
I like the episode when they were drinking beer in a bar.

>>10360494
Semantics don't care about culture.

What you're saying is that "otaku are different because they're Japanese". That's in a way true. They're Japanese geeks, raised and living within Japanese culture with all its idiosyncrasies and quirks. They're still geeks, however, not something else entirely.

We can call Japanese geeks otaku in the way we call Chinese cartoons anime. But you can't call anime not cartoons because it's anime, lest you wish to enter a really pathetic weeaboo territory.

>>10360524
>Chobits or Fruits Basket (both post-2000 anime themselves, by the way)

I don't understand what you're trying to prove with this statement, you seem to be on a bizarre mission to somehow get me to say something about 1980s mecha shows. I never said anything about the 80s in this thread at all, get it through your thick, subhuman skull. There is a big difference between 'Anime then' and 'Anime now' and it's not a leap that exists between 1980 and 2012. In case you didn't know, there was a lot of anime made between those years.

Stop trying to pin your false generalizations on people. In fact, you should probably go one further and stop generalizing altogether.

There was nothing productive /a/ did about Madoka, only bitching and trolling. Go and show me something if you want but you should also remember that /a/ is not the insular community you believe it to be and (as strange as it may seem to you) takes a lot of original content from other places.

>>10360553

Then your semantics are wrong. Otaku is completely different from 'geek', anyone who knows anything about otaku culture will be able to tell you that. The mentality, mindset and attitude is completely different.

You can sit there and say 'otaku are the same as geeks' but you'd be wrong.

>>10360561
They translated the runes of Madoka all by themselves. No other community did that. Also, they produce good original content sometimes and if you manage to go through the pile of shit out there, you can have good discussion about current anime. I don't go there because I rarely watch anime, though.

>>10360553

>Semantics don't care about culture
>The debate is about otaku culture

So...how are your opinions relevant to this thread, then?

>>10360476
> I'd have to disagree here, a real otaku has seen thousands of shows and will know almost everything there is to know about them. /a/ are 'anime fans' at best. They won't watch something unless they can talk about it with other /a/ users, that's what drives most anime fans away from that place, it's awful.

You're assuming that they won't watch something unless they can talk with someone about it. This is impossible to support just from looking at the board. You can't tell the amount of anime someone watches and doesn't talk about, for the obvious reason that they don't talk about it.

Besides, one of my favorite parts of watching a series is constructing theories about the characters, where the plot line is going, etc. I like to analyze everything about the show. If you go on /a/ you can see other people's analyses which helps with yours. If an otaku has an intense interest in decoding parts of a story, then it's sensible that they decide to discuss it in a group, so you see things that you may have missed.

>>10360571

Those runes were translated on 2ch long before /a/ did anything, I know this because I was watching it happen and I know other /a/ users were doing the same.

Discussion on currently airing anime is painful, any in depth look at story or animation is quoted and followed up with:

>SUCK IT SHAFTFAGS
>Masterpiece
>2deep4u

With the occasional person maybe thanking you for the information. To which the conversation suddenly goes into a studio war, trolling, sales or 'would you a feets?' 'I'd eat _____'s farts'.

It's painful, I've even had in-depth posts I've written turned into image macros proving why x studio is shit and y studio is so much better which wasn't my intention at all. And somehow "/a/" gets the credit for this? It seems like it's a maximum of about 5 other long-suffering people who are trying to increase the post quality whilst being shat on by kids who would rather troll and circlejerk.

>>10360467
I'm not arguing against that thesis. It seems you have me mixed up with another poster and have therefore turned extremely hostile towards me. What I'm arguing against is that the proposed definition of otaku shouldn't leave modern anime fans excluded (by proposed, I'm referring to the thesis, which I respect enough to base the discussion on its definition of the term otaku).

For the purpose of an overview, the following are my posts in this thread:
>>10359998
>>10360411


>>10360438
I'm going to stop arguing with you now since this is the extent of my experience with Japanese visual culture. I find that you're mentioning a transitioning into consumerism which seemingly existed in a much lesser degree in the past. I can understand where you're coming from now and I have to admit you've convinced me in the existence of this major discrepancy between modern and classic anime. Although this is mostly due to my lack of knowledge on this matter. I still dislike the thought of a culture being obfuscated/corrupted, and that I'm too late to enjoy it (hence my taking offence and resulting rude comment). But on the other hand, I am indeed enjoying myself with my moe. While I may not be a true otaku, my enjoyment and succesful escapism may be all that matters to me.

>>10360583
/jp/ has these kind of replies sometimes too but it doesn't mean that all of us has these kind of reactions. You can actually have good discussion there. But anyway, they really can't be considered "anime" otaku. I'd guess that less than 10% of them are actually obsessive with this hobby.

>>10360588
Where do you draw the obsessive line in terms of watching anime? Not trying to start an argument with you. Just wondering.

>>10360561
What's your cut-off for "modern anime", then. Also, good job ignoring the main point and concentrating your reply on inconsequential side-comment. That's usually a sign someone has no answer to the main point.

>There was nothing productive /a/ did about Madoka

I kinda liked how they deciphered the runes, then made the font of the runes, then made a script that turned 4chan spoilers into the runes, then I lost track because I don't visit /a/ all that much. The wiki they made still remains the authoritative resource for the franchise for me.

>>10360568
Then you're a delusional weeaboo (or, on the off chance you're from Japan, a delusional nationalist). That's all there is to it.

>>10360583
There's no denying that /a/ is an awful board overall. That's not the point. We're not attacking /a/, we're arguing whether they're otaku or not. Yes, otaku can be awful people too.

>>10360592
I'd say that it's when anime goes beyond from being a hobby to you, and you want to know everything about anime. It's history, producers, VAs, studios, character information, scandals, every single official product, these kind of things.

>>10360615
> It's history, producers, VAs, studios, character information, scandals,

Everything listed here is stuff /a/ discusses regularly.

>>10360585

>What I'm arguing against is that the proposed definition of otaku shouldn't leave modern anime fans excluded

Modern anime fans are exactly that, they're not otaku because modern anime doesn't cater to otaku anymore. It likes to think it does because the 'popular' image of otaku is that they love 2D girls and buying eroge, but the truth is a very different story.

If you're a young 'otaku' it would be natural that you'd gravitate towards whichever shows accommodate the otaku mentality, many of these being older shows as newer shows don't, they have no purpose in doing so because their fanbase is made of consumers, not otaku.

Even with respect to new/old...there's a remake of Yamato still ongoing which was adequate for otaku in the 70s. If you call yourself otaku now and you're not watching it, you're not otaku - simple as that.

Does that mean that it's almost impossible/very unlikely for otaku to exist nowadays? Well...yes, go and read オタクはすでに死んでいる where this is outlined very clearly.

Imagine if all computers were exactly the same...lets say Microsoft fails, Linux doesn't exist and the only computers you can buy are Apple Macbooks, no more no less - it would effectively kill modern computer otaku because there is not enough information for them to process. They would have to become obsessed with the computers of the past and learn all about them.

>>10360614
>Yes, otaku can be awful people too.

If there's any definition of otaku we can agree on, it's probably this.

>>10360619
Not on an obsessive level. They like to watch the anime, they know their ways around anime, but gee, I wonder how many of them go as far as searching in trash cans for some old VHSes of 70s/80s anime. Of course, I'm not an expert at this so I can't really say where the line is drawn. But I still don't where the line is drawn.

>>10360623
Aren't you invalidating the whole definition of otaku as someone that's obsessed with a specific hobby? For example, I love searching around for information about specific topics that I am simply completely obsessed with. But just because they aren't about technology and/or old topics that used to be liked by otaku in the 70s, does this mean that I can't be considered an "otaku"?

>>10360623
But being "otaku" isn't about the 'type' of things you enjoy. Yes _just_ loving 2D girls and buying eroge isn't otaku. But if you're obsessed with eroge you're an otaku.

And you don't have to like any specific production to be an otaku. That's retarded.

Can we just talk about how much of a cocksucker Danny Choo is?

Jap cartoons are mostly shit imo.

>>10360642
I never browse his blog, and I prefer to stay that way.

>>10360619

Most of /a/ is completely ignorant to the Aniplex/SHAFT etc. scandals and writes it off as trolling.

They have no idea how 'sales' work and think it's some kind of simple flea market, anyone who says otherwise is verbally abused, yet nobody can prove otherwise apart from "everybody knows it's not like that", they get their so called 'information' from a collective hivemind of what is generally accepted as 'right'.

And have you ever seen character discussions? They can't even remember a character's name, they just call them 'red-chan' or 'blue-chan' based on their hair colors or a notable trait/event.

>>10360614
>Also, good job ignoring the main point and concentrating your reply on inconsequential side-comment. That's usually a sign someone has no answer to the main point.

Actually I argued everything in your post.

>they deciphered the runes

Already said this wasn't /a/

>then made the font of the runes

Not that difficult

>turned 4chan spoilers into the runes

Not that difficult, also gimmicky.

> I lost track because I don't visit /a/ all that much

So then why are you trying to debate with me whether or not /a/ is otaku? You clearly don't know anything about /a/ and you just said yourself that you don't visit /a/ much. You attribute the findings/work of a single Anonymous user to the whole board as if the entirety of /a/ is responsible for 1 person's findings. How can you say '/a/ is otaku' when you're actually referring to a handful of people at best.

>Then you're a delusional weeaboo (or, on the off chance you're from Japan, a delusional nationalist). That's all there is to it.

No, and I see all you can do is call me delusional which pretty much proves you wrong.

Sorry...what is it you know about otaku culture again? You don't even seem to know anything about western 'geek' culture, let alone otaku culture.

>>10360660
> Already said this wasn't /a/

You merely said 2chan did it first.

>>10360660
Actually, I can totally agree with you. The group that brings up the current news about anime is very small. For example, in a thread where they asked about which sites do /a/nons use for getting anime news, they just answered with ANN and /a/, mostly. I was like one of the very few that actually listed japanese sites that actually deliver news (such as moon phase and new akiba). ANN and /a/ are basically just proxies because of this small number of people that do almost everything to the leechers that just sit around and prefer to be spoonfed instead of searching for information by themselves. But oh well, when someone is asking for an anime recommendation, they oughta kick that guy away. Pretty contradicting, if I'd say so.

>>10360672
So do you go against him or not? Once he proves you wrong, here you are at his knees. But when you are ignorant, you feel inclined to talk down upon others. Make up your mind. You are shameless man.

>>10360639
>>10360630

No, as I've said before, otaku are characterized by a constant, maniacal thirst for information. They are information junkies.

Anime all the way up until the mid/late 2000s provided entertainment for (anime) otaku. Why? Because there were shows which accommodated the otaku mentality, they produced books full of technical information, provided watchers with an overwhelming number of details and information about anything from how a mecha worked, what operating system a gynoid girl was running on or even the technical abilities of the catgirl from another planet, detailing the velocity and distance in her jumps.

Anime now does not cater for that, because it doesn't sell anymore. The buyers are consumers, not fanatics and the shows pander to this. If perhaps a show was to be released that does - then good. It's not strictly limited to what is in the past.

Yes you can be an otaku of anything, but anime and eroge alone do not cater to otaku. You can be a train, car, bike, computer, software, history etc. otaku, but if (somehow) any of those subject matters stop providing a source of data, there is nowhere for the otaku to go but backwards.

Think of otaku like a hard drive - they collect and store information and can access it at any time.

Fans of modern anime are not otaku, they are more like processors or RAM - storing information for as long as it's relevant and then dropping it all when something new comes along.

If you're only a fan of modern supercars, you're not a supercar otaku. If you only care about the latest games, you're not a game otaku.

>>10360623
That sentence wasn't directed towards you. Please stop kicking me and reread the last paragraph of my post.

>>10360673

2ch is not the same as 2chan, that's basic knowledge to anyone on /jp/. That's a very bad faux-pas you just made.

>>10360672
Well it's understandable, not every one has the time to learn good jap. And don't tell me /jp/ speaks it in it's majority. But yes a true anime otaku would speak it.
>>10360684
Because anime is just about the Plot and details within the show.... Sure...

>>10360679
Hmm? I think you are confusing people here. I've checked my replies in this thread and of the most recent ones, there was only one instance where I was proven wrong, and it was when I've said that /a/ was the only group to translate the runes, whereas 2ch already did it. And I still think you can discuss anime there, if you ignore the unnecessary commentaries and fanbase wars. And I'm pretty sure that in one of my replies, I've said that most of /a/ is not otaku.

Are you stroking your cock as you vomit all this on your keyboard?

>>10360583
>With the occasional person maybe thanking you for the information. To which the conversation suddenly goes into a studio war, trolling, sales or 'would you a feets?' 'I'd eat _____'s farts'.
>
>It's painful, I've even had in-depth posts I've written turned into image macros proving why x studio is shit and y studio is so much better which wasn't my intention at all. And somehow "/a/" gets the credit for this? It seems like it's a maximum of about 5 other long-suffering people who are trying to increase the post quality whilst being shat on by kids who would rather troll and circlejerk.

Have you looked at this particular board in the past four years?

>>10360700
It just so happens that I am a vomit otaku. Would you like to see my collection?

I'm starting to learn the names of the 2hu songs and find good remixes.

>>10360660
>Already said this wasn't /a/

They used no outside sources.

If you wish to say they weren't first... well, prove it. You do have means to do it.

>why are you trying to debate with me whether or not /a/ is otaku

Because /a/ is most relevant to the hilarious idea that fans of modern anime can't be otaku that you're postulating. Why are you arguing this in the first place? I still don't know, despite having asked and you claiming that you replied to my entire post (you little liar you).

>what is it you know about otaku culture again

Oh, I get it. You think that "otaku" is defined by a culture. As in, there's some cultural standard you need to adhere to deserve the glorious label of TruOtaku, and you can't get it otherwise. I guess you're on the certification board, too.

In reality, the culture is defined by otaku. You like the culture of old otaku. You don't like the culture of modern otaku. Well, tough luck. Cry me a river. (Better yet, cry /a/ a river if you want to concentrate on anime and not on what our little board is about. Though I guess our Touhous, VNs, Idols and Vocaloids are not enough TruOtaku for you either.)

>>10360719
I actually have two 2L bottles with vomit and water.
I got sick once and vomited in a sink and that's how I got it out of the sink, but I didn't know what to do with the plastic bottles so they're now hidden in my closet.

>>10360732
I've just gotten a flashback to old /jp/.

>>10360689

>Because anime is just about the Plot and details within the show.... Sure...

Studios, staff and animation has been discussed right from the very beginning, it's a given that it will always be discussed. But the details that otaku care about has decreased, leaving their existence meager. It's as simple as that.

Those details are what separate the otaku from the fans. It's the line of distinction between 'fan' and 'obsessive'. It is the difference between 'geek' and 'otaku'.

Miyazaki may know a lot about animation, studios and staff, but he is not otaku. He will not know how the VF-1 is powered or the psuedo-science in GitS. That's the difference.

>>10360722
I think you missed his point, but honestly he's not really taking the amount of information that otaku culture nowadays provide. There are thousands of eroge out there, man. Of course this can breed eroge otaku. And it's jut one of the many examples of what can modern "otaku culture" can bring out. At least that's my perception of it.

>>10360732
That's retarded. Are you really this incapable? Pour the vomit into a toilet and flush it down. Hurry up before it evolves into a monster and eats you!

>>10360748
They've been in the closet for God knows how many months (more than a year maybe?) so I really don't want to open them, but yes I am very incapable sometimes.

>>10360750
Defenestrate it, anon!

>>10360757
That would just throw it in the garden!
I think I’m going to hide them somewhere, like in a park at night.

>>10360722
>In reality, the culture is defined by otaku. You like the culture of old otaku. You don't like the culture of modern otaku.

There's no such thing as 'modern otaku' or an 'old otaku' the definition has never changed. Otaku is otaku. This is not about some 'gold standard' of otaku, you argue that I am raising the bar on otaku to exclude people, but how do you reach this conclusion? How can the bar be raised in the first place? I could argue that you are lowering the bar to include people who want to attach the label to themselves.

We can both argue that we're moving the goalposts to suit each other's needs, but actually that doesn't work in my case - because I'm going by the original cultural definition of otaku as detailed in the works of Toshio Okada plus in the thesis someone has linked above. Why should I or anybody trust your arbitrary all-inclusive definition of 'otaku' with no credibility over the words of numerous writers who have seen and experienced the culture firsthand who say the same thing?


>They used no outside sources.

Yes they did. I'm not sorting through the 1000s of threads on Madoka on 2ch (If the 2ch archive still has them). If you'd like to prove otherwise, then go ahead. But it's your word against mine, and if you somehow think yours is more valid because it is yours by default, then go ahead. I am not responsible for the delusions in your head.

>>10360684
do you even watch modern animes?

>>10360688
I'm sorry. I pronounce them the same way and often mistype. Like there vs their I often make mistakes, even though I know the technical difference.

>>10360774

Yes I follow every single airing series, I wouldn't be able to cast judgement if I didn't watch them.

>>10358934
they are not even close to 80s anime, 80s anime knew how to do atmosphere, character development, emotion. they didn't feel like a story, it felt like you could be there. from zeta gundam to maison, to votoms and many more. those show have the same problem every other show after 1990 has.

Only truotaku take their time to memorize 80's anime technobabble. Good for you.

>>10360793
What if I got that atmosphere and feeling from watching Last Exile?

>>10360793
>they didn't feel like a story, it felt like you could be there

Give me a fucking break.

>>10360766
What is it looking like? Put up a label in it like "mustard" or something like that. And then put it up in the garbage or in a park.

>>10360766
Could you take a picture of it? I may be interested in purchasing them from you.

>>10360767
> There's no such thing as 'modern otaku' or an 'old otaku' the definition has never changed. Otaku is otaku.

I have to point out that even though the definition doesn't change their can be a difference. There is "modern america" and "old america", even if by "america" in both phrases I'm referring to the same geographic region. Or, for another example, I could point out the difference between "young johnny" and "old johnny" even though johnny is the same person.

So technically there could be "modern otaku" and "older otaku", who both fit the definition of otaku but are significantly different in other ways.

>>10360767
>the definition has never changed

That's my point.

>who want to attach the label to themselves

We're not talking about those retards. And if you actually are, I'd really like you to explain how you managed to conflate those with "modern anime".

>original cultural definition of otaku as detailed in the works of Toshio Okada

Oh, I get it. You're not on the certification board, Toshio Okada is. I should send all my inquiries to him. Well, that looks like a showstopper, unless, I don't know... you provide a citation of him saying that modern otaku aren't otaku - in which case your position will at least be internally consistent.

>Yes they did.

No, they didn't: Compare http://archive.foolz.us/a/thread/44790618, just one thread I have just easily found in the archive.

Now, about 2ch being first - your claim, you prove it. Otherwise it remains unproven. Simple as that. You were the one who claimed to have read 2ch threads, not me.

>>10360816
It's in big bathing soap bottles bottles, pretty opaque slightly transparent plastic.

>>10360827
I don't want to open them to take a picture but there's a lot of water because of how I tried to empty the sink. That fateful day I had spaghetti IIRC so there was a lot of undigested spaghetti.

This whole thread feels like I'm reading a Colony Drop blogpost.
Just reminding you that both sides are basically wasting their lives.

>>10360861
>basically wasting their lives.

"Otaku" is pretty much defined by doing things most people would consider wasting their lives.

>>10360861
Constructive discussion is always good.

>>10360861
At least these guys are not spreading their epic Simpsons memes.

>>10360868
I agree, but you see, from a veteran point of view newfags will always be filthy and 'unworthy'.
This has nothing to do with 80's anime being more fleshed out or having more information dumps written about them.
We're just old and burned out, looking down on the newfags because we are unable to move on.
>>10360884
Not a meme, but I do feel just like that simpsons guy at times. Now stop responding to my weak troll and carry on.

>>10360889
>newf**s

Sorry for quote-editing, but I'd like to remind you that this is a safe-for-work forum and we aim to keep it that way :-)

>>10360861
>comic book guy the ultimate the comic book guy from the simpsons
At least fix your filenames. Your posts lack any kind of credibility when you can't even wrap your head around how to rename a file.

>>10360896
He obviously just GIS'd it you dork. Stop being so nitpicky.

>>10360898
You seem helpless. Unable to correctly type on a full-sized computer keyboard, forced to splurge out random meaningless abbreviations.

>>10360898
You RickRoll'd me LOL nice one.

>>10360904
I think it means "google image saved"

The atmosphere of this thread is very odd.

>>10360904
>>10360906
I meant Google Image Search(ed). I was trying to be cool like these people:
http://fuuka.warosu.org/jp/?task=search&search_text=gis

>>10360913

Damn, those people are rad.

Why most of people here don't even want to post their age anonymously?

>>10360952
Because that's contrary to the point anonymity
Everything about my personal life is fucking irrelevant. Only my words and actions are what matter.

>>10360952
I'm 18 and a half.

>>10360952
I'm 20 but I pretend to be 28.

>>10360684
TYPE-MOON, Index
Off the top of my head.

>>10360952
It's what you say, not who you are, etc.

If you make a good point it should stand on its own regardless of how old you are. I can have an opinion about a 50s movie just as much as someone who watched the premiere does.

btw i'm 12

>>10360958
Same, but I usually exaggerate my age by 3 years or so. I wonder how old I must become before people stop calling me a kid when I tell them my real age.

>>10360959

That's not true, I know all about you Mark.

>>10360965
>>10360958

I pretend to be a teenager.

btw im 17 want to illegally fuck me?

>>10360965
At that point you'll be so old you'll be calling other people kids (unironically).

>>10360969
Fucking you is legal in many states.

Asking about age on the internet is like asking about penis size. I can't tell who's legitimately bragging and who's being ironic. Nobody is being honest.

>>10360959

It might be relevant to the thread if you do it while posting other info such as your otaku life.

>>10360977
is this dirty pair?

i have the videotape of this cartoon somewhere

who adv here

>>10360985

IT'S CALLED ANIME FAGGOT

>>10360986
Whoa, dude. calm down. Animes are a subset of cartoons.

>>10360836
>Oh, I get it. You're not on the certification board, Toshio Okada is. I should send all my inquiries to him. Well, that looks like a showstopper, unless, I don't know... you provide a citation of him saying that modern otaku aren't otaku - in which case your position will at least be internally consistent.

In 2008 Toshio wrote a book entirely dedicated to this subject called オタクはすでに死んでいる (Otaku are Already Dead).

I'm not saying Toshio himself is the 'certification board' nor am I saying the same about Tooru Honda etc. either, but they are all from the same era of otaku. They were otaku when only otaku knew the term, they were otaku before the anime industry had glamorized it, they are part of the original generation of otaku. Effectively, they ARE the certification board, and whether you think that is silly, unfair or mean and harmful to your self-image is irrelevant, it simply is what it is.

>>10360793
zeta.....
you have gotta be kidding me. I like zeta but it was a freaking transformations toys commercial. I lost it when I saw bike in space.

>>10360989

NO, IM NOT GONNA CALM DOWN

CALLING IT A CARTOON IS FUCKING UNFORGIVABLE, HOW ARE YOU EVEN HERE?

>>10360985

yes it's Dirty Pair.

adv?

>>10360989

cartoon is tipically used by trolls here.

>>10360991
Sort of like how the west has sold out nerd and geek culture as something hip and chic?

Gotcha.

>>10360989
Why don't you call anime animation? You could save so much people from butthurt...

Super shitty quality radio for this thread:

http://www.otakuculture.freeshoutcast.com/

What are the best 80's anime? I've only seen Gunbuster, LOGH and Aim for the Ace.

>>10360991
You need to give more than the title of the book.

He could just mean that the culture of Otaku is changing in a negative way, even though they still technically fit the definition of Otaku. from a previous /jp/ thread;

> In contrast, Okada takes the current generation of otaku to task for continuing to "ghettoize" themselves, retreating ever-deeper into individual virtual worlds when they encounter any sort of resistance to their interests. Where's the sense of pride, of camraderie? he wonders. He decries their inward focus, their passivity, their apparent lack of desire to learn about or interact with subcultures outside of their own tiny worldviews. (The last is a hallmark difference, at least in Okada's idealized view, between the moe-otaku and traditional old-school otaku, who actually forced themselves to partake of genres or titles they didn't particularly like in order to broaden their horizons.)

It seems like he's just criticizing the behavior of current-otaku, as opposed to older otaku. He's not saying otaku no longer exist.

>>10361005
That's it

>>10361009
To expand further, it's kind of like how people say "anime is dead" without meaning that no one makes anime any more. He just means that current anime is a shell of what it used to be.

>>10361017
The ghost of a shell

>>10360993
Fine. Japanimation.

>>10361005

80's are plenty of different anime genres, what are you interested to watch now?

>>10361020
Shitty Hanta was awesome.

>>10361020
I'm really up for anything, but in particular I enjoy Comedy and Mecha.

>>10360991
>In 2008 Toshio wrote a book entirely dedicated to this subject called オタクはすでに死んでいる (Otaku are Already Dead).

Did he deny that modern otaku are otaku? This is important here. That he's a senile old man critical of the younger generation is not.

I have not read the book, obviously, but the reviews I'm seeing suggest that he does not and he addresses them as otaku all the same.

>whether you think that is silly

Which I in fact do.

>harmful to your self-image

Interesting, why would you think it's harmful to MY self-image?

>>10361005
that grandpa is just having hard nostalgia. go watch kor. as /a/ would put it forced drama. judge the show by its own merit and not by the produced date.

>>10360989
>Animes

>>10361078

>>10361078
>>10361084

I love you.

>>10361037

A very iconic romantic comedy is Urusei Yatsura. It's very long for today anime comedy standards tho.

Mecha.. Mobile Suit Gundam of course.
Also Macross should be nice, I haven't seen it yet but many people suggested me to watch it.

>>10361074
What's kor?

>>10361114
kimagure orange road

oh yea go watch patlabor, I like that one. too bad it didn't age well.

>>10361084

>>10361120

Real men watch the LaserDisc version.

>>10361120
why do u say that patlabor is 1 of my favorite cartoons ever made (at least that ive seen i havent actually seen every cartoon ever made there are probably better 1s)

>>10361090
Thanks grandpa, I'll watch that one after I finish Black Lagoon.

>>10361120
I watched a Blu-ray of the OVA series a few weeks ago and thought the show aged fine. It was a bit of a tl;dr at times, but a splendid watch nevertheless.

>>10361141
animeigo are the people who did bubblegum crisis right

good company imo

Just so you know, truOTAKU doesn't mean that you reject all anime made after the 80s. STOP blaming modern anime.

>>10361009
>>10361017

No, that's not even from /jp/, it was taken from some biased blog ages ago that soley followed his books just to criticize him. He definitely says that otaku are no more.

What's the point in giving you page numbers? You're not going to look at this book anyway, I could cite some arbitrary numbers if you wanted but there's no reason for you to believe me. You should be thankful I'm not the type of person to just make things up or else I would have already pulled a bullshit page number from my ass.

You can't judge this book without reading it, just like the other books he has written, plus Denpa Otoko by Honda. It all says the same thing, I don't know why you are so desperate to refute all this, the only logical conclusion I can come to is that you'd like to use the term to describe yourself but you are angered that you don't actually fit the definition.

All I'm doing is stating fact, this is the definition - if you care about otaku culture and history then listen well, because this isn't what you'll read on blogs that like to glorify the image, if not - why are you here?

>>10361000
Don't use the chat anons, is a general chat for everyone in the server.

>>10361049
>Did he deny that modern otaku are otaku? This is important here. That he's a senile old man critical of the younger generation is not.

Really? Senile old man? Is that honestly the best you can come up with? If you feel like you're fighting a losing battle then just stop posting, don't start shooting the messenger and throw all your toys out of the pram.

>>10361171
You can not give a shit about any of this and still be interested in /jp/ things, silly.

>>10361162

Correct. A shame they've faded into obscurity. I don't think they hold licenses to most of the titles they once had.

>>10361187

I mean this thread, this thread is about otaku - but all you're here to do is argue what was already set in stone years ago for reasons you still haven't actually made clear. This is like debating science against Christians, I don't understand why there is such a wall for people to suddenly stop listening and refuse all the proof they've been given.

I've given authors, books, there was even a thesis from 1990 posted in the thread. And what has the retort been? "You're wrong because you're wrong and I'm right".

>>10361149

I'm not that guy, I'm 24 years old and OP.

>>10360337
>It's funny how people can write so much about a topic they're clueless about.

Volker Grassmuck is a famous sociologist. He has a Wikipedia page and everything.

Also, Lawmune is a cool guy. I know everyone hates it when people write seriously about these topics, but his website has some pretty good articles:
http://www.cjas.org/~leng/anime.htm#otaku

I've considered making whole threads about some of these, but people will probably just accuse me of being him or advertising or whatever.

>>10361171
> I don't know why you are so desperate to refute all this,

When someone says something that I think is wrong I point it out. And I don't feel like I've wasted very much time. I felt like some of the things you said were wrong so I decided to try and correct them.

In the end this is a debate about definitions. In the end I watch anime / read manga / play vns because I'm really interested in them. I don't think I'd fall under any definition of "Otaku" because I'm not obsessive (I'm more interested in math and computers). I honestly just felt that the things you said were wrong.

In the end we're just discussing the definitions of words. I only argued because the way I see "otaku" applies to the behavior of many people today. I'm of the opinion that the definitions of words extend from how they are used. If Japanese people are calling people of today "otaku" then otaku still exist, even if they are different from otaku of the past. It really is as simple as that.

>>10361210
I appreciate the help regardless, thanks OP!

Are there artsy anime otaku? I remember reading about a super undergound Morimoto fanclub or something, but I couldn't find anything on it.

>>10361244
>I don't think I'd fall under any definition of "Otaku" because I'm not obsessive (I'm more interested in math and computers)

>otaku
>(in Japan) a young person who is obsessed with computers

Quoting the Oxford English Dictionary.

>>10361274
I made a mistake. I should have said "anime otaku".

>>10361171
>You should be thankful I'm not the type of person to just make things up or else I would have already pulled a bullshit page number from my ass.

Oh, but then we'd be able to check (because it's one thing to read an entire book, which can take days, and another to just look for a specific quote on a specific page). Would that be inconvenient?

>you'd like to use the term to describe yourself

This must be your first day on /jp/.

>this is the definition

No, the definition is that thing you'll read when you open a dictionary. It does not differentiate between modern and old anime, modern and old otaku and it does not make any single person an authority on deciding who's who. This is not a hard concept.

>>10361185
>Is that honestly the best you can come up with?

In what way can this description be improved?

Ignorance is bliss, and the comfortable lie is an easier pill to swallow than the uncomfortable truth. With weeaboo having exceedingly bad connotations and 'anime fan' being too casual for many, there is a small sense of satisfaction from calling oneself 'otaku'. To know that someone out there in Japan can relate to your shameful anime obsession and could potentially be an ally, to strip people of this label is to strip them of their safety blanket.

Even those who don't go around calling themselves 'otaku' feel comfort in being able to relate to the stigma, many people can't deal without labels and these people are often those who label others the most.

When somebody comes along and says "Everything you know is wrong, here's how it actually is" with proof, not many people will take kindly to this. But slowly, over years people have to either adapt or die in ignorance.

The Neo-Nazis of today do not represent the Nazi Party of Nazi germany; essentially they are very different from the Nazis of the pre-war era and today's rendition of Nazis have no right to call themselves such, but people use the label anyway for convenience and because of the similarities.

In this way, otaku is the same. The 'otaku' of today probably have no right to be called so, yet convenience and comfort allow people to gloss over the past and pretend nothing has changed while they change the biggest part of all.

The importance of this however, is that the past can never be changed - but the future can. Otaku will evolve into whatever otaku shape their evolution to be, we clearly have some intelligent 'otaku' here who refuse to be part of the current generation. Does this perhaps signal a change in the waters? Perhaps this debate and similar ones all over the internet will reshape the future of otaku into something that combines modern otaku technologies with retro otaku sensibilities.

>>10361171
>the only logical conclusion I can come to is that you'd like to use the term to describe yourself but you are angered that you don't actually fit the definition.
Nope. Who? Otaku culture is some shit that moot labeled /jp/ with. None of us asked for it. Personally I prefer misunderstood genius. Being an otaku is not a status symbol.
Again 80s anime are not actually better than modern anime. In the 80s, they are used as toys commercial, in the 10s, they are used to sell figs.
They are the same thing.

>>10361289
Language evolves and take different meanings over the time.

Board should've been "Japan/Miscellaneous".

I don't care if people discuss tea or pagodas, but labelling weeaboos as "otaku" is like calling video game players "nerds". It might not be inaccurate, but both groups are annoying and don't deserve to get what they want.

>>10361149
>>10361148
When I said it didnt age well, it has more to do with the setting and year the show takes place in. It dropped the ball on all its predictions.

>>10361244
>When someone says something that I think is wrong I point it out. And I don't feel like I've wasted very much time. I felt like some of the things you said were wrong so I decided to try and correct them.

I kinda wanted to answer with something like this too, but there's really too many things to say and too little time to waste on it. But I think it's always funny when people with an agenda think everyone else has an agenda.

>>10361289
>No, the definition is that thing you'll read when you open a dictionary.

But lets go into this in more detail.

Who writes the definitions? Is he or she an otaku? How can we trust this definition is correct.

You vilify me for using Toshio as a 'gold standard' a man who has lived and seen otaku culture from its beginnings, yet you cite the dictionary as being an irrefutable source, yet this too relies on a 'gold standard', but one that cannot be named, cannot be proven as knowing anything about the subject and is generally completely unable to be trusted.

What makes your 'gold standard' more relevant than mine?

And once again, as I've posted all throughout the thread; what is your definition and where is your evidence to back this up? Of course I am going to assume you have an agenda, all you've done is flame and not provided any evidence for your claims.

>>10361313
>In the 80s, they are used as toys commercial, in the 10s, they are used to sell figs.

There were less series in the 80s that were merchandizable than there are today. It was only a small handful of shows in the 80s that actually had merchandise made of them. Compare that to the dakimakuras etc. of today.

>1995 was an incredibly important year for the Japanese society, and it drastically changed otaku mentality as well. From what I can tell, ‘95 marked what is now considered a split within otaku culture.

>A lot of you probably maintain a single image of anime culture. But in Japan, it is actually heavily split in two ways. This happened in 1995. It was the year when Evangelion was first released. This anime led the split, but it also carries both elements. On one side, it depicts the “real” emotional conflicts of a teenager, and battle scenes are also highly realistic. But on the other hand, it also expresses fictive quality of a symbolic imagination. This split is becoming deeper and deeper.

>In any case, if you only look at what’s produced…to tell you the truth, as this is something we haven’t said at all, but in Japan people have actually given up on the future and potential for anime and games. This is because it has been ten years since Evangelion, and we still haven’t had anything that exceeds it, to put it bluntly. Of course, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex is truly great and I mean it, but it’s not easy to exceed Evangelion, right?

>To put it simply, it is as if things have stopped for the last ten years. In the last decade, we’ve only accumulated more and more fictional, symbol-laden stories with lots of cute girls. What in the world is going on here? That’s the general impression of otaku in Japan. At the same time, we know that there is something that makes this necessary

Eva killed otaku culture. Discussion over.

>>10361141
Laserdiscs are an amazing anime collectible. Huge cover art, pure analog video, and huge box sets combine to form pure awesome.

Here is a pic of the Maison Ikkoku LD24: originally cost nearly $1500, and I got this copy on eBay for $50 a year ago.

>>10361379
I can only see this as an improvement

>>10361382
>cost nearly $1500
Goddamn, we sure had more money in the past

>>10361312
>Does this perhaps signal a change in the waters? Perhaps this debate and similar ones all over the internet will reshape the future of otaku into something that combines modern otaku technologies with retro otaku sensibilities.

What's more interesting is the early prototype to Anime otaku ('Yappies' (Young Anime People) who were clean-cut city boys and girls who weren't as obsessed as otaku, but loved anime) is very similar to the "Akiba 2.0" older chuuni kids you see nowadays with their messenger bags and pseudo-fashionable clothing.

They weren't otaku by any sense of the word but it just goes to show that history may go full-circle considering the similarities of anime fans now and then.

Pic related: Yappies (No relation to Yuppies).

I hate every single person who posted in this thread.

>>10361374
>>10361374
Anime to sell tamiya cars?
Anime to sell bandai robots?
Anime to sell robots killing monster of week?

Once they grew up, they want to know the comfort of girls and thus you get the dakimakuras/onaholes of today. Kids grow up, they no longer want robot toys.

>>10361401

A Day in the Yappie Lifestyle

7:00 AM: A digital timer triggers the cassette Walkman, playing the day's wake-up song from a pair of mini-speakers. For a Yappie, "Hellow Vifam" is the perfect choice. Those looking for something more uptempo might choose the "Theme From Captain Tsubasa." but "The Arale-Chan Dance"? Never.

7:20 AM: The time before school is important for planning out the day ahead. After scanning through the newspaper's TV listings and checking that the VCR timer is properly set, a Yappie carefully selects the videotapes and character goods that they are bound to exchange with friends at least twice during the day. Also: mark anime magazine pages with likely topics for discussion. Before leaving house, blow a kiss at a selected anime poster.

8:00 AM: While walking to school, mentally rewind and review anime watched the night before so as to fix at least the screenwriter, voice actors, and animation director's names in memory.

8:40 AM: No need to be on the honor roll. It's more important to cultivate the ability to combine appreciation of anime with one's studies. "The Adventures of Meme" can be as educational as any class, and many things can be learned from the complicated lines of "Urusei Yatsura."

9:40 AM: Between classes, a Yappie never holds back from talking with their classmates. Remember, a Yappie is an anime fan -- not a fanatic. Mastering everyday sorts of conversational topics and adding them to one's anime repertoire keeps a Yappie fresh and interesting. Yappies are dedicated to changing the image of anime fans as nekura (gloomy).

12:20 PM: Lunchtime is the perfect time to swap the latest anime info, trade tapes with friends, and exchange info with pals who are buying different anime magazines. But make sure to leave some time to talk with "normal" classmates too.

>>10361368
>Who writes the definitions? Is he or she an otaku? How can we trust this definition is correct.

Both Oxford and Merriam-Webster keep a big database of written/spoken/printed/electronic texts called a corpus. They look for new words that occur often, cross-reference them, and deduce a definition that fits common usage. Obviously a lot of words have more precise definitions in specific fields or among certain people, and those definitions may stray a bit from the one-line definition in a dictionary.

Welcome to a shitty, non-standardized, "living" language.

>>10361419

3:00 PM: School is out, and a Yappie uses this time to focus on their hobbies. A happy anime fan club is a good fan club. Gather together like-minded fans to chat, work on one's original animation production, or make handmade anime items.

5:00 PM: Drop by the local anime shop. Aiming for a time near closing when other customers are scarce, chat up the manager for the latest insider info. After the anime shop, drop by the record shop, book shop, and if female, the local gift shop, before returning home. Catch news on TV, then listen to the latest singles on the radio.

7:00 PM: The time after dinner is perfect for enjoying one's "private anime life." After watching the anime one taped earlier in the day, write the daily entry in the anime logbook.

9:00 PM: After finishing up required studying and homework, prepare the weekend schedule by using the television listings to determine which shows to record. Now it's free time! Listen to a record, read a "young novel" or anime novelization, prepare for a weekend anime event, or work on your original anime cel tracings. And get to bed before midnight... Because a Yappie is a beautiful dreamer!

>>10361368
Dictionary definitions don't come from thin air. They represent consensus among users of the word and the language. They are also subject to critical review, and there are many of them on the market, which means you can always consult others if you aren't satisfied with either of them.

In comparison to this, personal opinion of one person means nothing.

>what is your definition

Consult >>10360487.

>Of course I am going to assume you have an agenda

It's called projection.

Basically, you're the one trying to call yourself otaku, and choosing to believe you belong to some kind of elite. This requires belittling people who aren't as elite as you, especially if you feel they're your rivals in the fight for the label. They don't deserve it, after all, you're better, you're not like them.

>all you've done is flame and not provided any evidence for your claims.

And so is this. It's also a lie. And you probably realize all this, but it's still easier for you to construct a personal attack than a coherent argument. Unfortunately, it's also much easier for me to counter that. I'd still wish you'd stop, it's just less fun.

>>10361448
>Dictionary definitions don't come from thin air. They represent consensus among users of the word and the language. They are also subject to critical review, and there are many of them on the market, which means you can always consult others if you aren't satisfied with either of them.

So you can't prove it, can you?

>personal opinion of one person means nothing.

The personal definitions of a number of people (Either stop pretending to be dumb or start reading my posts properly) who have actually been a part of the scene since the beginnings, these ARE the authorities. Can you suggest a better one?

>It's called projection.

>Basically, you're the one trying to call yourself otaku, and choosing to believe you belong to some kind of elite. This requires belittling people who aren't as elite as you, especially if you feel they're your rivals in the fight for the label. They don't deserve it, after all, you're better, you're not like them.

And where did I call myself otaku? Who's projecting?

>It's also a lie.

Really? So where are your sources? I'm still trying to get them out of you but you're just resorting to the "NUH-UH" tactic followed by "I'm right because the dictionary is always right".

And then of course you go into the "blah blah you're losing because you threw a personal attack, it's so easy to argue with you that I wish you'd stop".

Who's acting elitist? I'm surprised you haven't started dumping reaction images and stale copypasta for all the backing out you're doing.

So come on, lets hear more about the legitimacy of the dictionary definition of otaku. Even >>10361417 has done a better job explaining it than you have.

I am 30 and despite me getting into anime when I was about 12 or so, I would be considered low level. I don't keep up with the new stuff at all really.

Talking about old stuff is pointless.

I am an outcast among outcasts. This is why none of you want to live to my age. Wizardom is rather lame if you don't learn the anitlonliness spell.

>>10361470
>So you can't prove it

I'll try my best to prove whatever you wish me to prove, as long as I learn what it is. Because I honestly don't know right now. Which part of my description of dictionaries needs to be elaborated further?

>who have actually been a part of the scene

I suggest you stop thinking of a proper noun in terms of some kind of scene. It's not even a scene, and even a scene would not be enough here. Maybe if there was some Otaku Movement with leaders and goals and flags and anthems, people who led it might have an authority to decide what belongs to it or doesn't. But there was not.

>And where did I call myself otaku?

Feels bad, doesn't it? This is what trying to talk with you feels like. Kindly stop.

>Really? So where are your sources?

What do you need sources for?

On that note, where are YOUR sources?

Do the truJapanese old otaku really care about animation or illustration as an artform? What is the audience of Diary of Tortov Riddle and similar films, or stuff like superflatism?

>>10361608
Normals.

>>10361563

Let's get this straight so we can stop this greentext faggotry because no doubt it is annoying the fuck out of people.

Our definitions of "otaku" differ, this is the simple argument at hand.

My definition is based on books, papers and various postings online. One of the papers has been posted in this thread, multiple books have been mentioned in this thread, multiple authors have been mentioned in this thread. The postings online will just have to be ignored since my browsing history does not go back years.

My definition of otaku is based on these people who were 'otaku' in the very beginning. People who know and understand the culture and have seen it's birth. These people were using the word 'otaku' (Which is SLANG, by the way) before the dictionary ever cared to put a labelled definition on it.

You're saying I'm wrong, you say that 'Otaku' simply means 'Geek'. You cite dictionaries as having the real definition.

There are three things wrong with this:

1) The Collins dictionary (Quoted earlier in this thread) doesn't even back up this claim.

2) The word existed before there was a dictionary definition. In fact, my definitions pre-date the dictionary's definitions.

3) This is a slang term, defined by the culture itself. Therefore the definition from the culture trumps a definition from anywhere else. I'm sorry but no amount of linguistic experts are going to truly know what 'otaku' are unless they are a part of that culture. I have proven that my sources were indeed a part of that culture, where are yours?

>>10361638
>Collins

The Oxford dictionary, sorry.

>>10361638
Yes, let's get things straight.

Dictionary definitions represent how people actually use words. They're clear, concise, and, most importantly, definitions; with little room of interpretation. Check this one:

http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn2/31429/m0u/オタク/

>ある事に過度に熱中していること。また、熱中している人。「アニメ―」

Or check the Japanese to English dictionary:

http://jisho.org/words?jap=%E3%82%AA%E3%82%BF%E3%82%AF&eng=&dict=edict

>geek; nerd; enthusiast; otaku

This is also how the books, articles and web pages I have read throughout the years universally use the term. This is, despite your claims, how http://cjas.org/~leng/otaku-e.htm actually defines the term when it defines it.

What you have against all that is one book that supposedly supports you but that you refused to cite. And all of that is based on a conviction that the author of said book is an authority that trumps the rest of the world.

This is where we stand from my perspective. Any questions? Anything to add?

>>10361893

Stop this "one book" nonsense, stop this "one person" nonsense too. I've mentioned multiple books throughout this thread. Why don't you try actually reading through them all (as in, actually reading them instead of looking at summaries on blogs or Amazon reviews) before you write it off as fiction? Stop acting like a child and throwing immature generalizations around. Also the majority is not correct by default, else the definition of otaku would be very different. What you are suggesting is nothing more than a vague translation at best.

Contemporary otaku are different from those of the past. The whole moe thing has shifted interest toward a niche which many would find disturbing. In the past, otaku might obsess over shows like: Macross, Urusei Yatsura, et al. These classic anime were well rounded productions, with interesting story lines, settings (SciFi was big then), etc.

The new otaku, on the other hand, has become obsessed with a narrow set of character attributes, such as underage cuteness and vulnerability. This has been to the detriment of the industry: by targeting this narrow market, anime has painted itself into a corner somewhat.

>>10362129
You are wrong. Both K-On and Madoka has mainstream appeal.

>>10357442

I never call myself an a otaku.

>>10360438
External to your debate, I am just going to say this, because it wasn't said:
Just because you can't collect lot of info from one specific anime doesn't mean you can't collect a lot of information about "post 2000" anime.

There are many more SOL than there used to be. What if some people watched at least 80% of them, and collected info about the whole genre and its evolution.
By your definition it would still be otaku.
You don't really need a specific anime to breastfeed you information to collect them.
Yes, there is less info per anime as far as character goes, but there is just much more anime in total, also anime is produced at a faster rate now.

>>10362187
Nevertheless, the industry has largely shifted toward fine tuning the aesthetics of their output to target the moe otaku demographic. Current output is overly narrowcast and the industry has contracted considerably.

There is plenty of material bereft of wide appeal, which has brought anime to where it is now.

I don't even want to get into the poor framerates and lack of animation found in too much contemporary anime....

I'm just a man who enjoys watching Chinese cartoons and collecting figures.

Otaku: means maniac, it's an obession over very specific things and it is bad for you.
Also see: Autism

>>10361953
>Stop this "one book" nonsense, stop this "one person" nonsense too.

Name more books, then, provide more quotations. More than the zero you did so far, that is.

I mean, ones that demonstrate your point. Not just random ones like with that old article that actually demonstrated mine despite your claims to the contrary.

>I've mentioned multiple books throughout this thread.

No, just that one. Liar.

>Why don't you try actually reading through them all (as in, actually reading them instead of looking at summaries on blogs or Amazon reviews)

Because even if I did try to read the all one of them, by the time I finish, this thread will have long 404d. You claim to have read it, you provide me with a quote that will still not prove your point, but at least make it logically consistent (as in, turn it from "I pull things out of my colon" to "I use the definition as outlined in this book, and it really does exclude everyone who didn't watch Yamato, because that's the rite of passage for becoming otaku").

>before you write it off as fiction?

Hey, I didn't write it off as fiction, I wrote it off as ramblings of a senile man. Get your facts straight.

>Stop acting like a child and throwing immature generalizations around.

But you started it.

...okay, that was indeed childish. Well, welcome to internet discourse.

>Also the majority is not correct by default

Regarding language? I'm afraid that, yes, the majority is correct by default. Whenever the majority uses some word or structure "incorrectly", its meaning or grammar changes. That's how language works.

Though it's not like the meaning of otaku changed. It was never meant to be "someone being a part of an elitist scene in the 1980s in Japan". It was "geek" from the start.

>>10362129
>Urusei Yatsura
I watched this a few months ago. Does people actually find this good? It reminds me of Super Zugan and other meaningless Anime.

>>10362804
It's the Japanese equivalent of The Simpsons, more or less (huge cast, cultural references). Did you even watch the better eps directed by Mamoru Oshii? UY has hundreds of episodes, so a random sampling is not really indicative of the series as a whole.

UY has exponentially more meaning than moe otaku pandering trash. The Oshii eps are recognized classics.

>>10362830
I wasn't randomly picking out episodes. I would never do that because of potential spoilers. I watched the first three episodes. If this is what's regarded as the cradle of classic comedy anime, I guess it's not for me.

>It's the Japanese equivalent of The Simpsons
So it's a sitcom on a episodial basis? I like Japanese animation because I want a story line. If I wanted half hour stories I'd watch The Simpsons as that at least has references that made sense to me.

>>10362798

>No, just that one. Liar.

Really? You seem to be forgetting 電波男 which has been mentioned twice in this thread already. I also said 'Everything by Toshio Okada' because it seemed pointless to list every single book on otaku that he has written but fine, have it your way. I'll list your recommended reading at the end of this post.

No, majority is not correct by default - not in language or anything. If everybody starts calling you a girl, does that mean you suddenly become one? No. If everybody starts referring to the sun as 'god' does that suddenly change the face of modern science? No.

You are using a definition of something in the past to fit something loosely similar which exists in the present. No matter how much you might choose to scream at someone and call them a Nazi - unless they were part of the Nazi party, they are not Nazis - and no number of people can change this. It's just a convenient preference to use an existing word where a new one should be used instead.

You ask me to list a quotation where Okada says 'Otaku are dead' because you don't believe he said it in his book オタクはすでに死んでいる (Otaku are Already Dead).

If you can't see how retarded this is, then let me explain it to you: It's like asking me to find the direct quote in Lord of the Rings that proves that Frodo ventured across middle earth, got caught by giant spiders, stole the ring from Gollum, defeated Sauron and destroyed the ring in Mt. Doom. You will not find a 'direct quote' that proves that this because it was the plot of the books and is 'proven' by reading them like you're supposed to.

Similarly, the entire essence of オタクはすでに死んでいる is the proof and reasoning that Otaku are not around anymore and the what is widely accepted as Otaku today is anything but.

>>10362998


And this leads me onto my next point, you seem very smug in believing that 'my own source' has been used against me, but if we take a look at the collective whole, we see this actually proves my point. It didn't demonstrate your point at all, quite the opposite. Let's look at a quote:

"The word corresponds to 'nerd' which in the USA is used for computer and SF fanatics." An American friend told me, that 'nerd' does have some similarity to 'otaku' but is not completely congruent."

Oh look, this is exactly what I've been saying when you've tried to tell me that otaku was a direct translation of 'geek' (which isn't mentioned anywhere in that thesis) no ifs, no buts.

So how does this prove your point? It just backs mine up further, almost word for word it provided the similar retort I did to you.

You call Okada off as a 'senile old man' because you disagree with him, you don't provide any evidence to the contrary. You're just damaging your own credibility.

Here's something I want you to do, read all these books in full:

オタクはすでに死んでいる
日本オタク大賞
国際おたく大学 1998年 最前線からの研究報告
東大オタク学講座
オタク学入門
ぼくたちの洗脳社会
電波男
オタク論!

Once again, don't read summaries, don't make sweeping generalizations based on what other people say - read them for yourself.

You're saying that for all the years people were using the word 'otaku', the moment the word fell into the Japanese dictionary is the moment the meaning of the word totally changed. Literally overnight. No. The word 'otaku' pertains to otaku, their use of the word is final and holds more meaning than the dictionary definition - which cannot define a culture or movement, it can only provide a basic comparison and summary for convenience, it is a basic point of reference used as a means of creating a basic shared lexicon - not gospel.

>>10362998
> Otaku are not around anymore and the what is widely accepted as Otaku today is anything but.

Can you elaborate on this. I know that Galapagos syndrome has seeped into anime and it's generally aimed at a niche audience now. Why did this happen?

>>10358663

Goddanar was a tribute to old school mecha you moron.

>>10363041

It's very convoluted and will no doubt result in a lengthy anime discussion but I'll try and simplify:

There are many reasons and turning points. It depends on when and where you mean. It could be said that there is nothing to accommodate the [anime] otaku anymore. For some, like Okada - the general belief is that Evangelion eliminated Otaku culture in the mid-90s when it turned otaku SF culture into consumerism. While I agree with his definition of otaku, I believe that otaku lived on for approximately 10 years after this and tapered off because I witnessed this happened.

In the late 2000s when the global recession set in, anime expanded it's market tremendously - it was around this time that the 'otaku' craze reached another mainstream news iteration - this time , thanks to the growing popularity of 2ch (Densha Otoko) and Nicodouga, there were a lot of people ready to label themselves as 'otaku', mainly thanks to shows advertising 'otaku' as being a cool label. Then to cater to this new market (where everyone who watches anime is 'otaku') we start jumping from 40-60 shows a year to 40-50 shows a season and we see the emergence of big chara-goods companies all of a sudden.

As far as companies see things: otaku are customers with lots of money who are dedicated to buying anything and everything - the perfect consumer. So they effectively turned everyone into their own definition of otaku and made money off the back of shows which fuelled constant buying of goods.

It's strikingly similar to the popularization of 'nerd' culture here. Instead of trying to make 'nerd' interests cool and available to all, they make the image of being a 'nerd' seem cool so that the entire market can profit and not just selected items.

In Japan they didn't try and make anime a cool interest - this would kill off the dedicated, valuable 'otaku' customer. Instead they lure everyone into becoming 'otaku' so that they can turn everyone into an ideal dedicated customer.

>>10363084
>the general belief is that Evangelion eliminated Otaku culture in the mid-90s when it turned otaku SF culture into consumerism.

Just to sidetrack a bit, this is specifically referring to anime otaku? (obviously...)

Are the more obscure ones like train okaku, military, that sort of thing, alive and well?

>>10363089

Why would it apply to other otaku?

>>10363093
Maybe some other shift in the overall culture?

I don't know, it was a stupid question in the first place.

>>10363084

This seems to be effecting japanese subculture as a whole. Look at Jpop with AKB48 [ AKB meaning akihabara] focusing on otaku with music. There's this whole theory that the focus on "otaku" is because of the economy:

http://neojaponisme.com/2011/11/28/the-great-shift-in-japanese-pop-culture-part-one/

>>10363096
>I don't know, it was a stupid question in the first place.

It wasn't, there's a shift in the culture. It's becoming focus on a narrow market as opposed to mass market. Japanese music is worst than anime with this. AKB48 dominating the charts.

>>10363084
>Evangelion eliminated Otaku culture in the mid-90s when it turned otaku SF culture into consumerism

Hiroki Azuma echoed the same sentiments.

>>10363098
>There's this whole theory that the focus on "otaku" is because of the economy

I can completely believe this. I don't know the inner workings of the economy so I can't say for sure but looking at it from a ground level it does make a lot of sense. 'Otaku' culture as it is currently presented to us today is immensely profitable, the anime industry can and does churn out any old crap and still people will buy figures and goods.

I've seen firsthand that Akihabara has turned into a tourist trap now, maid cafes are open everywhere - not just in Akiba because everyone wants a slice of that アキバ系 chic lifestyle.

And yeah, AKB48 is a perfect example. AKB48 was created as a sole means of Sony Music getting a slice of otaku money. The amount of AKB48 shit in Akihabara is insufferable now, you can't go anywhere without seeing it in some form.

>>10362998
Fine, two books. Still one author and zero quotations.

And I already laughed at you for treating otakus like a party. Otaku are not Nazis, Okada is not Hitler. Hitler may get to decide who's a Nazi, but not who's, say, a nationalist. Nazis are nationalists, but so is Scottish National Party. There are many faces of nationalism, and even if Nazis are the ugliest of them, it's still a common noun with an universal, objective definition. Likewise, they're many faces of otaku, and even if Okada is the ugliest of them, there are still others that fit the definition that do not have to be anything like him. Whether he likes them or not doesn't matter ever since the all-encompassing definition of otaku was accepted into the language. You don't need to carry a card to be one.

If everyone starts calling me a girl, it means the definition of a girl changed to encompass people like me. (Ararara, doushio?). It's in fact possible to be "a girl" while being male:
>4. (figuratively, pejorative) A boy with girl-like qualities, especially squeamishness.
>"Stop being such a girl and punch back."

This is of course irrelevant here, since there was never any semantic shift for the term "otaku" (apart from the original switch from 御宅 to オタク, of course, and it didn't imply that all those people suddenly became homes). Just regular social and cultural changes across time (that some people apparently don't like).

You have also admitted that the book does not contain a clear definition of otaku. This is bad, because to communicate and understand each other, we need the words we use to be well-defined and unambiguous. I refuse to use a word that lacks a definition, so I'll stick to the one that exists. Providing an alternative definition should be the first thing you do to argue your point. Unless the whole point is treating the word as a buzzword that can mean whatever you want it to mean at the moment. In which case don't expect one bit of understanding or sympathy.

>>10362998
...and that's not even mentioning that you've got another failed analogy there, since there's no word for "Frodo's journey across middle earth in which he got caught by spiders, stole the ring from Gollum, and did all that other shit" in the English language. And that's not even mentioning that he didn't actually do half of that shit in the books.

>>10363020
"Nerd" is obviously not the same as "geek". Nerd is an intellectual, geek is someone obsessed. They're related, but semantically they're two distinct terms with distinct meanings, and otaku gets translated as "geek", not "nerd". Moreover, the definition of otaku provided in the article states as follows:

>I would say that an otaku is a person who is into something useless. Idol-, manga- or whatever-otaku means he does not have anything else. But in that he really indulges.

Which is perfectly consistent with the usual definitions of "geek" the dictionaries provide. Unless you wish to argue with dictionaries again, you have absolutely no case here.

And sure, I could technically read all those books of his you name-checked, but then we'd have to continue this discussion in 2014. Which I guess is your point by now. Postponing the conclusion of it, I mean. And even if I did, the only thing it may possibly change is me determining whether your claims are grounded in something and logically consistent or not. I'd still treat them as incorrect either way, in light of the overwhelming evidence from other sources that you disregard or refuse to address, and in light of the fact that I simply disagree with the point I'm told he's trying to argue. I do not expect to be convinced that he and his peers can appropriate some common Japanese word just because he doesn't like other people described by it.

And I call him a senile old man because complaining about younger generations is a stereotypical behavior of old people. There's nothing more to it.

>>10363265
>Still one author

Get your facts right for once in your life, 電波男 was not written by Okada.

>You have also admitted that the book does not contain a clear definition of otaku. This is bad, because to communicate and understand each other, we need the words we use to be well-defined and unambiguous. I refuse to use a word that lacks a definition, so I'll stick to the one that exists.

And this is where you go wrong.

Dictionary != gospel

If the dictionary was to write lengthy in-depth descriptions of the connotations and history of each word, it would be useless to most people. You're treating a simple reference as solid fact. People reading the dictionary do not need to know the specifics behind the term 'otaku', only a basic idea of what it entails. It is not the full definition.

Actually, there is also a semantic shift you missed out.

御宅 to おたく to オタク

Even jp wikipedia outlines this.

>since there's no word for "Frodo's journey across middle earth in which he got caught by spiders, stole the ring from Gollum, and did all that other shit" in the English language

But that's not what you were asking for, you didn't ask me for a definition - you asked me to quote where he said that the otaku of today are different from the original otaku, which is the very essence of the entire book.

No, if you actually read the article it is compiled of many people's ideas of 'otaku' before finalizing on a universal definition at the end. Stop cherrypicking or start reading - your choice.

Your problem here is that you only choose to see the semantic value of the word and not the cultural value. This is all well and good on /lit/ perhaps, but this is /jp/ where the culture is more important than the semantics.

It seems to be all you care about is being 'right on the internet' and you don't actually care about the word at all - that this could be an arbitrary word for all it matters to you. That's just childish.

>>10363265
>to communicate and understand each other, we need the words we use to be well-defined and unambiguous. I refuse to use a word that lacks a definition, so I'll stick to the one that exists.

But doesn't this pretty much assume that everyone is reading from the same dictionary despite them all having different meanings?

Granted I haven't paid much attention to this debate but if every dictionary provides a different definition then how can you really say that we're all on the same page?

And isn't there indeed a case that the language most of us follow is not the language of dictionaries but our own colloquial, ambiguous dictionaries?

Sorry but real life doesn't work that way, and /jp/ certainly doesn't. Your point is no more or less valid than his.

>>10363265
>I refuse to use a word that lacks a definition

So you don't use 美少女? You won't find it in the Kojien after all.

>>10363326
No, the other way around. It assumes every dictionary reads from the same pool of words. My argument is that dictionaries are trustworthy because they're made by observing how words are actually used, rather by arbitrarily assigning meanings to them.

If every dictionary provided a different meaning, then we'd obviously not be on the same page and there'd be ground for discussion (as well as ground for rejecting the word as meaningless or clarifying its meaning every time you use it). But that doesn't happen often because people have to agree on meanings of words, otherwise communication would be literally impossible. Or rather, it happens, but across different lanuages - and as a result people of different languages usually cannot communicate.

If, however, all dictionaries provide (more or less) the same meaning, that's all the more reason to believe that the people universally agree it's a correct one. And it's my belief that this is exactly the case with the word "オタク". It can be proven by looking at various dictionaries and falsified by providing a dictionary with a different definition. So far the latter didn't happen, and until it does, I will continue to have a point.

>>10363356
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn2/184705/m0u/美少女/

I'll find it in Daijisen, it seems.

Aside from that, that's two words. 美 and 少女. Words are just blocks, and speech is constructed by putting them together. You don't need a separate entry for everything you can create by combining them. Just for the elementary blocks. You won't find "butthurt" in most dictionaries either, but you can easily figure out the bare meaning, if not the intent of the metaphor, just from the meanings of the "butt" and "hurt" parts.

>>10363303
>People reading the dictionary do not need to know the specifics behind the term 'otaku'

Indeed. Now figure out why is that. Bingo, it's largely irrelevant to its usefulness in a language.

Dictionaries do provide etymological information for words, by the way. Daijisen does for オタク, for example.

>you asked me to quote where he said that the otaku of today are different from the original otaku

No, I asked you for a quote where he said that the otaku of today are NOT otaku. In other words, I asked you to provide even that little proof for what you've been arguing for all this time.

>/jp/ where the culture is more important than the semantics

Ha ha ha ha ha.

And whatever culture would theoretically be important to /jp/, it's not a culture of some old man who apparently dislikes what we like.

>It seems to be all you care about is being 'right on the internet'

Told you to stop projecting and end personal attacks. It's rude. And I can retaliate at any time I wish.

>>10363439
>>10363476

Who cares about Daijisen? Kojien is the most widely used and manages to contain lots of 'trendy' phrases, regardless of whether or not they are two words or one.

Isn't the debate here precisely about the meaning of the word as opposed to the usage of the word? From what I can see, the person who you're debating started off this whole thing regarding the history of the word, it definitely does seem like you're just jumping on any chance to dictionary-bash anybody who does not conform to your definitions.

It's stupid anyway, of course someone more ingrained in the culture is going to have a different definition to somebody who is only loosely aware of it. You're both right in your own ways.

>>10363084
I don't see how a shift to consumerism of the culture makes otaku die. One can be just a s obsessed with detail and the surroundings now than 30 years ago. One can still spend one's whole life time in this, be it buying or not.
I 'm not very informed, but I saw this french documentary on otakus, it was made about the time gainax made games. And well... They interviewed otakus of all kinds, millitary, model, anime, idol... And they were all compulsive consumers, some of them pirated all they consumed but were, never the less, consumers. Others spend the little money they parents gave them, because NEETdom, on a ticket for an idol concert. They did not work because they spend their time in editing images, sharing images, listening to albums, re-watching old concerts and such.... Or at least that was the impression they made with their huge collections of tape recordings of various events.... That, I think, is an otaku, and I don't see why a more monetary consumerism can destroy this. I mean piracy is still around, and no lack of detail in anime can make an obsession stop. Now, the obsession can be fed both with money or without it. I do agree that only money can't make an otaku.... Danny Choo is a good example. But just because that fuckface calls himself an otaku doesn't mean old-TrueOtaku are extinct.
Also, make a distinction, between the old definition and the new one, and how you use it, because you two are just making redefinition fallacies ad infinitum settle down for just one on your discussion.

>>10363796
Was this a french documentary on otaku in France or on otaku in Japan? I'd be interested in watching it, only I don't speak French.

>>10363827
French, on japanese otaku, in french.
I think an outsiders perspective can be very informative, have a torrent:
http://www.t411.me/torrents/otaku-le-cinema-du-reel-j-j-beineix-dvdrip

>>10362985
>I watched the first three episodes.
There is your problem, right there. UY took a while to find it's pace: Oshii et al. originally followed the manga closely, but then started to improvise and let the characters grow for themselves (Oshii also injected philosophical elements in the vein of his Ghost in the Shell et al.).

UY is episodic, so there is nothing wrong with reading an ep guide and watching the best eps first:

Episode 78 is a classic example of Oshii's philosophical style: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSree0OSkcw

Ep 75 "And Then There Were None" is usually cited by the Japanese as one of the best eps:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPwU980Zu2E

Also 105 and 106 marked the end of the Oshii period for UY, and are usually cited as one of the finest moments in the series. Anyway, the Japanese usually cite UY as one of the greatest anime of all time, but what to they know?