/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>42920827
there are two general routes people go as far as I can tell
1. SRS with isolated kanji, with wanikani, kanjidamage, or something like that. You learn through rote memorization the kanji itself, a keyword, minimal relevant readings, and maybe the most common word with it. Do this for at least a few hundred kanji before trying to read anything.
2. Learn a small amount of vocab through rote memorization, the bare minimum, and immediately start immersing on content you like. It'll be painful at the start when you have to look up 5 things per sentence and struggle with grammar. You learn kanji on new words as you go, gradually, probably with added mining.


I attempted both at the start but ended up on #1 and I like it better. When you do read you can infer jukugo meanings like 80% of the time and it speeds up things a lot.

>>35596763
>if you read a volume of manga each day
How much of a time commitment is that, realistically? I did read a full raw volume once before, comfortably over the course of maybe three days or so a long time ago. That was a highlight of my progress back then, and was so much more enjoyable. Not sure what it'd be like now though, and finding raws of content I actually want to dive into is increasingly troublesome these days (notably for newer/ongoing things). What I'd really like to try is visual novels, though I imagine they possess a tougher barrier to surpass than most manga too.
>>35596791
>the cards should be easy for you to pass anyway because you are only making them for things that you already understood easily.
This whole post has been an interesting take for me. I've always witnessed the perspective of "SRS what you just learned", as the default way for most miners. Perhaps that is why I struggled with Anki content so much, and still do. I may understand a term fairly well within an instance of initially receiving it, even spending minutes on individual stuff to "ensure I get it this time". Though, that adds to the workload significantly when you learn a lot at once.

I believe that was too much to bear with regards to stress. I'd be sitting on single cards reviewing daily for far too long, practically turning it into a blunt rote "I'm garbage, I don't remember, I'm garbage" memorization scheme. Several hours every day on Anki for the simplest of shit, and it'd kill my motivation to even use the language for entertainment to the point of avoiding associated mediums even in my native language. I recognize, and am not necessarily debating the benefit of spaced repetition (I was referring to just reading and remembering as the magical 'gimmick'). I believe there is surely some nuance in making it all work well that I don't think is conveyed well to or by most people. Though, you've proposed some simple points that I think make sense. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't petrified of dealing with the wave of "being a fuck-up" stress again, though.

This isn't a "pity me" post, I just wanted to voice my concerns and considerations. Thank you for your advice.

>>27597132
>>27597225
rote memorization does not equate to language learning
you will not learn how to read or speak naturally through srs

>>20298244
>They did 4 hours of daily study outside the classroom
In otherwords, trying to rote memorize kanji, doing text book exercises, and filling out useless grammar tables. Traditional study.
>It indicates Japanese is the most difficult language for native English speakers to learn.
Up until the modern area it was likely one of the more difficult ones in the world, but not anymore. You can do RTK in two months with a SRS, and then you're essentially like a Chinese person learning Japanese.

And also, when Japanese people say that Japanese is the hardest language in the world, they mean it for everyone. Most Japanese people genuinely think it's impossible for a non-Japanese to learn the language. It's a level of mass delusion basically not seen in any other civilized country on earth, and the sooner the meme dies the better, because it also harms learners who will hear it and create a self-fufilling prophecy.

>>18705232
Try the patented AJATT™ method
>First, get rid of all your western entertainment. From now on you'll only be watching movies/anime/shows in nihongo, listening to nihongo music/podcasts, and reading nihongo. Understanding nihongo isn't the point. The point is full immersion.
>Step 1, for the first couple of years you'll memorize the jouyou kanji, all 2000 something of them. Don't bother with how they are pronounced, how to use them in a sentence, or what they really mean. Just memorize the pictures.
>Step 2, once you've memorized all 2000 pictures now you can begin learning nihongo. Actually wait, before that you'll need to learn both kana syllabaries, this should take you like 10 minutes.
>Step 3, using your favorite SRS (spaced repetition system) mine for sentences, that is to say look for nihongo sentences, translate them, and see if you can remember their translations later. Remember you're not trying to learn grammar, because grammar is useless, or pronunciation, because production (output) is counter-productive. It's all about dry rote memorization of the translations. That's the key to good, native sounding nihongo.
>Step 4, once you've mined at the very least 10,000 sentences, congratulations, you are now fluent in nihongo.

>>18490441
>you learned english through rote.
I can't say I did. Perhaps when I was very young (>6), but that would be it. I schooled myself. My 'study' was never so formal. I just absorbed it through the environment and content I consumed. How do you just remember vocabulary so sharply just through casual SRS rote studies when the character set is so infinite?

>core6k comes with example sentences for context
Except those sentences did little for me. Just because there is a sentence for a word doesn't mean it will be memorable in any way. I got through maybe 350 words or so, then stopped because the process was taking up the majority of my waking day to complete, and my results were insufficient for the time invested.

>Try

I am asking for assistance because I have tried. Either the methods I have attempted have been applied poorly, or I need to find one that will work better. That is why I specifically inquired about how to form impactful mnemonics. If a method is working for other people, then more likely than not, the issue is in my implementation of it.

>>18490409
>If I try to study vocab decks through rote with an SRS system, how am I going to remember the content?
Try
>There's no context, no distinct method of imprinting the content into my mind so I can both produce and recall.
Production is pointless, core6k comes with example sentences for context
>In my case, rote is fruitless. What am I to do?
Too bad, you learned english through rote. Ergo, its not fruitless.

>>18490342
I attempted to do vocab decks before (and did not complete them). The amount of work it gave me was overwhelming, and the results, poor.

>I believe it will impact vocabulary acquisition as well, as I have had difficulty with that in the past as well.
>don't see how it is sustainable or otherwise beneficial to study RTK as I am, or even plain vocabulary

The issue of my present mnemonic-building skills still stands. If I try to study vocab decks through rote with an SRS system, how am I going to remember the content? There's no context, no distinct method of imprinting the content into my mind so I can both produce and recall. In my case, rote is fruitless. What am I to do?

>>18490350
>>18490368
>by far the best way to get kanji to stick is by seeing it as words in context in native material.

I agree. This is the reason I attempted to do a Core deck before. I found it to be overwhelming due to mnemonic construction failure, and having to drill in mindless rote all the time. I do believe there were sentences in the deck for each term, but that didn't suffice for creating context.

>Mnemonics suck and are super boring.
Why do you think this? How do you study, and what is your skill level at now (after how long)? Rote is truly ineffective for me. I see no reasonable alternative.

>KKLC
I've heard about it, but I don't know how to feel about it. Someone posted a video in a recent /djt/ thread where he mentions KKLC (after 32 minutes in, you can just skip to 32:00). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgRte6oSoF8

>>18490374
>What is RTK?
"Reading the Kanji". Yes, the author is James Heisig.

>>18063007
>or you're doing rote learning bullshit instead of (decently structured) anki cards
>The primary differences between Anki/SRS and rote learning are prioritizing your time towards what you're having the most difficulty remembering, and spreading out your practice
what your intent was is obvious. you were simply using the term rote learning incorrectly. you can't say you didn't make an argument that you made.

btw the people who think SRS isn't rote have been posting for a long time >>/jp/?task=search&ghost=yes&search_text=srs+rote

best to call them out on their bullshit and ignore any responses rather than try to argue with them

>>18062926
going to add this on
>or you're doing rote learning bullshit instead of (decently structured) anki cards
>The primary differences between Anki/SRS and rote learning are prioritizing your time towards what you're having the most difficulty remembering, and spreading out your practice
you demonstrated a deep misunderstanding about what rote learning is
no amount of trying to reframe and misrepresent your original posts can change this
making fun of someone that's trying to get you to stop arguing is very cancerous btw

>>18062782
>If you use Anki as a computerized flashcards program then you are using it to learn by rote.
Thanks for once again failing to disagree with with any of my actual claims before you bailed pretending that you didn't read the 100 word post. Reading comprehension is a valuable skill.

>>18062782
>In the context of you breaking down Anki/SRS in general as being completely different than "rote learning".
>By the way, notice that I emphasized a specific kind of rote learning for the entirety of the post.
I should have started my first post with different wording, but again, reading comprehension helps follow discussions. And again, SRS isn't inherently rote learning, it is commonly used with rote learning.

>>18062770
>You're too stuck on the standard accepted methods for Japanese to acknowledge the variety of methods allowed by Anki.
If you use Anki as a computerized flashcards program then you are using it to learn by rote. No buts.

Spaced reading is possible with Anki but is very much not recommended.

>Thanks for moving the goalpost. "Rote isn't involved" wasn't my claim
I never said it was. I said "Anki is rote learning". In the context of you breaking down Anki/SRS in general as being completely different than "rote learning". You're the one that's moving your goalposts. This is so stupid I'm not even going to read the rest of your post. Congratulations on robbing yourself of a conversation and making yourself look like an idiot.

>>18062699
>SRS can be rote learning
Space repetition doesn't have to be rote learning but if you're using Anki then you're doing rote learning because the repetition is mechanical.

>Rote learning means more than "involves repetition"
Repeating pure information in order to remember that information without undergoing comprehension or natural use of that information is learning by rote.

When you use mnemonics, you are still learning by rote. You're just learning the mnemonics by rote instead of the information represented by the mnemonics. That doesn't mean you're not doing something by rote.

Rote is the opposite of learning by "experience" or "naturally". There's a middle ground between the two extremes that doesn't qualify as "rote", but repeating flashcards is never in that middle ground.

>>18061064
SRS can be rote learning, it depends on what your fucking cards are. In the context of kanji, which was the topic, mnemonics are meaningful learning, not rote learning. Rote learning means more than "involves repetition", if it was that broad of a term then it would be synonymous with "learning". By the way, notice that I emphasized a specific kind of rote learning for the entirety of the post.

The idea that the depth I went into to contrast methods has something to do with them having the same label is the most idiotic thing I've read this week. Congratulations.

>>18059927
The primary differences between Anki/SRS and rote learning are prioritizing your time towards what you're having the most difficulty remembering, and spreading out your practice. The worst kind of rote learning for kanji, in my opinion, is writing the same thing tens of times at once. Repeating the same thing twenty times in a day is far less effective than repeating it once or twice a day for a week. Repeating the 100 most recent kanji you've learned twice a day will put too much time towards kanji that are easy for you.

You didn't specifically say if you're doing this or not, but I believe that having to recall kanji without reference is more beneficial than having to draw what you see. I think that a card that asks you to recall how to write, or actually write, こども with kanji is more beneficial than copying 子 a few times and copying 供 a few times. Though of course there are many ways to structure cards and I'm not going to get into suggestions beyond keep it short and simple.

Most of what you've described is fine, though it's hard to be sure without more detail. I'd still be wary of the repetition. It's not going to do harm, but if it's excessive it might drain you and keep you from wanting to do other practice, and if it's not effective it might demotivate you or make you think that the problem is you. I'd imagine that supplementing with Anki, even using cards that resemble your current study method (though other approaches may work better), may surprise you.

Also, I'm definitely not suggesting Anki should replace everything you're doing. Physically writing kanji, especially a few times the first time you learn one, is good. Reading (and listening) as much as possible is probably the most important part of learning a language. Speaking too early is something people tend to argue about, but that aside, conversation will make you better at forming sentences quickly.

>>17885672

indeed. however, the point is more to convince any new people reading these threads to give it shot, by expressing real, tangible examples of the effectiveness of mnemonics.

>>17885683

>no, I haven't ever used them.

well it's completely untrue that you've never used them. everyone has used some in one shape or another. ever thought to yourself "i before e except after c" when spelling receipt? anything like that? none whatsoever? the chance that you've never used a single mnemonic in your entire life in infinitesimal. at this point you're just being antagonistic and stubborn just for the sake of being such.

>I don't need them, it's an outdated technique before SRS was invented.

of course you don't bloody need them. the point is that it helps you solidify the information QUICKER than rote mem. also, you're supposed to combine srs and mnemonics, not do one or the other.

>>16782544
The only possible reason I could see someone doing rote for is for good looking calligraphy or learning to use a brush or something. If you simply need to write Kanji so they are recognizable there is absolutely no reason to do rote at all, not even in combination with SRS. If you can recall how to write Kanji in your SRS cards even after the longer intervals it means you have remembered it and will know how to write it in every word that entails that particular Kanji. Rote is simply a waste of time that you could use to up your Kanji recall cards in Anki, therefore getting more Kanji done.

>>16782509
SRS and rote are not mutually exclusive. SRS is itself an incarnation of rote learning, technically.

I was recommending rote over mnemonic, not over SRS. As for why, I just like the simplicity of the rote method. I find coming up with mnemonics to be really tedious and dull, while rote is the sort of mechanical activity that one can just sit down and get on with.

The picture was just a demonstration of my progress so far. It also does away with any claims that I'm only a couple of weeks/hundred kanji into the process and will give up soon before they can be made.

>>16782492
Why do you recommend doing rote as opposed to SRS? That picture really doesn't tell me anything.

>>11821060
A rep, named as an analogy to weight-training reps, is a daily dose of memory training on a Spaced Repetition Software, such as Mnemosyne or the vastly inferior (yet strangely popular on /jp/) Anki. SRS itself is an efficient rote learning technique perfect for language acquisition.

>>10245033
By blending rote memorization with SRS. In other words introduce 100 new cards, go through all of them and press 2 for every correct answer, and so on. After you've depleted the whole deck of new cards, you create a custom deck by using the "Cram forgotten cards in the last X days" and just go through them as much as possible. And when the next day arrives you should be able to go through them pretty smooth.

I'd really suggest you to not learn kanji only and words instead, or at least combining them in some way. I wasted a year because of doing this method, and it paid off decently well, but I could've still probably learned a lot more in that time frame.

The only thing it really helped with was a starter vocab featuring compounds with okurigana at like 500~ words, because I did 3 star kunyomi only. And it helped me memorize compounds that use the onyomi easier, because I can associate the sound with the meaning, and positioning of kanji isn't something I have problems with. i.e （段階）、（階段）

But, usually onyomi meanings can be learned through vocab itself. So if you feel like it's too much of a hassle, do keywords only, and vocab afterwards.