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/ic/ - Artwork/Critique


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File: 274 KB, 877x709, Émile_Bin_-_Persée_délivrant_Andromède_1865.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7168085 No.7168085 [Reply] [Original]

Are there any books for beginners on how to draw in the classical academic way? I like how the French and Italian masters of the past drew band sculpted the heroes of ancient Greece and Rome and I also like Frank Franzetta's style, which is quite similar, so can you recommend books based on that as well
I love beauty and lifeful dramatic scenes

>> No.7168111

Start with some art history. There's no such thing as French masters

>> No.7168115

>>7168111
whatever you say fag

>> No.7168181

>>7168085
Start with Bargue plates, it's a good foundation.

>> No.7169101

>>7168181
and then?

>> No.7169161

>>7169101
Just start there already. That's enough to keep you busy for idk 200h+, and when looking into it, you'll find further clues on how to progress further.

Don't hoard, don't look for Le Perfect Course, just get to work and practice.

>> No.7169168

>>7169161
I have a lot of free time on my hands, so it's no problem for me, but how do I do it properly anyway? I don't have any art materials, just a pen/pencil and paper will do?

>> No.7169172

>>7169168
there's this amazing website where you can type in any question on your mind and it gives you links to websites with answers to your questions, it's called google.com it's really good you should try it

>> No.7169193

>>7169168
Bargue Drawing Course for something to grind copies of. PDF is trivial to find on /ic/.
Proko for some free video instruction on super basic stuff like drawing from your arm, sharpening pencils with a knife, etc. You don’t need paid courses yet if you don’t have the stamina to copy through Bargue.
Graphite pencils, staedtler, faber Castell, Windsor and newton, whatever brand, student grade is fine so long as they’re graded sketching pencils instead of Chinese garbage.
The cheapest 18x24 paper you can get your hands on, you’re doing practice sketches with dry media, you have the benefit of not caring about paper quality yet.

ULTRA SUPER DUPER LUXURY EXODIA ITEM: $10 Conté graphite sticks in white, black and red, or charcoal sticks/pencils in the same color.

You don’t need anything else to get started beyond this list. It is simply not worth it to expand further until you have done your Bargue plates and developed stamina for drawing from the arm. Stop talking to /ic/ crabs and go draw.

>> No.7169226
File: 88 KB, 708x1024, Bouguereau_Nymphs_and_Satyr_MMA_cr.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7169226

>>7169168
>but how do I do it properly anyway
See, that's one huge red flag there. If you want to learn to do something like picrel, by yourself, you *absolutely* need to become self-reliant promptly.

This is a highly sophisticated skill, which demands those famous 10k hours of training. It's not just a matter of having time, you really need to learn to think critically, to look for knowledge on your own, and to discipline yourself.

If you ask random questions to random Internet people, you'll get random answers. Let me give you an example:

>>7169193
(no offense anon, I'm sure you're well-intended, but what you know and understand is still too limited)

>PDF is trivial to find on /ic/.
The Bargue PDF is awful; there are higher quality sources.

> You don’t need paid courses yet if you don’t have the stamina to copy through Bargue.
This is a decent take

> Proko for some free video instruction
> The cheapest 18x24 paper you can get your hands on
> 10 Conté graphite sticks in white, black and red, or charcoal sticks/pencils in the same color.
None of this is really relevant for Bargue plates.

> and developed stamina for drawing from the arm
That's a half-baked advice: drawing from the wrist for example is perfectly fine in many circumstances.

>> No.7169251

>>7169226
ok i get it
>higher quality sources
you mean another PDF? or a real book

>> No.7169283

>>7169251
> ok i get it
> you mean another PDF? or a real book
Nah, you don't get it.

I mean, you probably understand it, but you haven't integrated it just yet.

Here's your assignment: look for a few different sources; select one of the simple foot plate, and carefully compare the quality of the various sources, and post the result of your research.

>> No.7169316

>>7168181
This and download "the academy and french painting in the nineteenth century" by albert boime.

Its either that, or sign up for an online atelier

>> No.7169357
File: 631 KB, 993x2000, Solomon_Ajax_and_Cassandra.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7169357

>>7168085
Yes there are.

Drawing, as others have said, Bargue is a decent introduction to the academic 19th century French style.

Anything too theoretical like the Boime book - stay the fuck away. That's a circlejerk, won't teach you.

Anatomy and whatnot - you've got Bridgman, and his teacher Vanderpoel. You've got plenty of landscape composition people like Carlson's Guide. Invaluable. Carlson calls out the untalented hack from even bothering to try if they don't have their balls in it. You've been warned.

Solomon J. Solomon's book on Oil Painting is in-fucking-valuable. First class, and picks up from where Bargue more or less leaves off.

SJS is English, but he was trained by the french academic system. You have a handful of books on painting by the members of the, at the time, Royal Academy. If you want portraiture, for example,Philip de Laszlo's book is just beyond superb.

Joshua Reynolds destroyed Rembrandts trying to find out what colors/procedures they used. Their explanations were wrong, modern-day layered scans show a much different, simpler process compared to what JR and friends did. Old masters kept it mostly simple.

Pic rel is SJSs work. These people did not fuck around.

Can answer more if needed if you want to know any further technical details but it's more about practicing and getting comfortable. Painting isn't easy, getting to a good level is a hard filter for most people. People who draw well with elegance can usually paint well - it's in the sensitivities developed, but it's not guaranteed.

>> No.7169365

>>7169193
>Bargue Drawing Course
WTF am I looking at here. Are you just meant to copy this?

>> No.7169384

>>7169365
Yes.

I will also add to >>7169357 that as a student of a student of the french academic system, Andrew Loomis' books are full of wealth. Maybe set in his generational tone but nonetheless. People like him are the true legacies of the french academies and we are incredibly fortunate that he took the time to write his books. While FWAP might be too lightweight for some people, his books on figure, hands, heads, composition are recommended by some Serious Fucking People to this day. It will definitely not set you back in any way to go through his books, and they are above all not beg traps in any way.

>> No.7169392

>>7169357
Thanks, man, I'm not thinking of painting just yet. My goal for now is to draw humans and animals, especially warriors, barbarians and hot babes
>>7169365
this not me (op) btw

>> No.7169404

>>7169392
>warriors, barbarians and hot babes
based

Bargue will teach you how to copy accurately which is an invaluable skill going forward. It will teach you rendering in monochrome. Everyone who draws well has the capability of a xerox machine, they just choose to not do it. A lot of understanding is knowing how to look and how to process and internalize what is going on. You look at a thing, and you reflexively know how it should be drawn and what the general proportions are. It is up to you to stylize it how you see fit. The first half of SJSs book focuses on proportional drawing, he gets into painting later. Do some bargue, then read through his book.

If you find Frazettas work inspiring, feel free to copy his poses. Block them in, reference an anatomy book like Bridgman, Vanderpoel, even Valerie Winslow is good for this stuff. Again, Andrew Loomis has a note in his book that his teacher told him he needs to be able to "draw the unseen ear" - means to get the forms to turn properly, to put everything in its place. It's all there for you, just have to sit down and enjoy the process.

>> No.7169409

>>7169384
>Andrew Loomis' books are full of wealth
I have FWAP, figures, and heads/hands, but I feel like I'm not sure how to use the books and I feel like a total fucking howie. Do I just copy the stuff til I'm able to do it from memory/imagination?

>> No.7169413

>>7169404
cool, do you have a link to Bargue PDF book? I can only find 67-9mb pdfs that don't seem high quality, I've tried libgen and anna

>> No.7169434
File: 1.81 MB, 1635x724, es.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7169434

>>7169413
If you google up "high quality bargue plates" you can find just the plates at 3000x3000 resolution or something. It's on a wiki somewhere, and it has text of the book on the page giving you instructions of what to do. Unfortunately I don't have a full scan of it - I bought a copy over a decade ago.

>>7169409
That is completely normal. That isn't a subject that is covered very well. You want to copy Bargues to get 2 things out of them: 1) the contours and general proportions to be in their right place. 2) the way forms turn. Both contour and rendering involve looking carefully at the plate to find plane changes, either due to obvious line change or the tone changes (harder to see). You can always have an anatomy book next to you if you want some hints to tell you, but this is difficult to see as as a beginner even with reference. It's not obvious. So with Bargue you can "just copy", as best as you can, and learn as you go.

Andrew Loomis is to me more useful as an over all guide than Bargue is, but Loomis really shines if you already know how to break down proportion and value, and thats where Bargue is at.

Once you develop good knowledge of proportion and form, you can start to build on what you're drawing and move away from rote copying and apply your own twist. See pic rel. for some practice stuff I did couple of years back while looking at https://archive.org/details/humanfigure00vanduoft/page/24/mode/2up.. This is me building on top of somewhat rough quality plates by introducing what I think is actually happening by knowing how things in reality appear and how light affects forms and whatnot. I don't expect people to do this, it's just me freehanding things because I like the stock. But you can see that I don't have any problems really taking a bunch of plates, and rendering them out however I feel like.

>> No.7169454

>>7169409
>Do I just copy the stuff til I'm able to do it from memory/imagination?

It works for some but it's not something that can be verbalized as a teaching tool. Learning to draw is learning to ride a bike. You can wax poetic all you want but you're on there and doing it well or falling off or you're just enjoying a circlejerk pretending to know what you're talking about.

Memory drawing will definitely improve by having to draw, there is no escaping. If you want another french academic text on it, they have you covered: https://archive.org/details/TheTrainingOfTheMemoryInArtAndTheEducationOfTheArtist

The more you draw the more accurate your vocabulary of shapes and forms will be. You'll have an easier time seeing composition and this will lead naturally into imaginative ("just making shit up") drawing that is passable, and again, leads you back into then more carefully studying in the same vein as Bargue to Loomis but applied to how artists approach picture making and more fantasy/dramatic oriented work.

>> No.7169467

>>7169404
Do you use a ruler or just do it naturally to copy Bargue

>> No.7169663

>>7169101
NO AND THEN

>> No.7169822

>>7169357
This a perfect example of how people who don't know anything just cobble together a bunch of memes they've heard parroted elsewhere.
>Solomon J. Solomon's book on Oil Painting is in-fucking-valuable. First class, and picks up from where Bargue more or less leaves off.
Solomon J. Solomon's approach to drawing is literally diametrically opposed to the Bargue approach. SJS recommends you do a contour drawing (literally just copying the outline of an object through observation) and then use that first piece you put down as a comparative measurement for the rest of the drawing, checking things like horizontal and vertical alignments to keep everything proportional.
Whereas with the Bargue method you start with a simplified block in, focusing on the largest shapes first completely ignoring the contour until the last stage.
>SJS is English, but he was trained by the french academic system.
There was never such a thing as the "french academic system". There were tons of private ateliers which each had a different approaches and mostly provided personalized instruction rather than some sort of generalized study plan. Things like Bargue (but also the Julien system) are a later development and not characteristic of the french atelier scene of that time.

And to the OP, you will never be able to paint like that. You're literally competing with people that had private instruction from the age of 15 by experienced artists in a time, place and culture where that particular way of drawing and painting was highly developed. If you're at the "how do I draw, better ask /ic/" stage you've already lost.
It's like asking "how do I become Mike Tyson" on /fit/. You having to ask that in the first place means you're not on a life path where you're even close to capable of achieving that goal.

>> No.7169871

>>7168085
I could swear there's a book specifically about the classical drawing method, like that particular look to the heads, but no one has mentioned it here.
Though I don't remember what it is either, so fat lot of help I am.

>> No.7170085
File: 439 KB, 1618x1890, Gustave+Courtois+Oil+on+canvas+78.74+x+64.77+cm+(31+x+25+12+in.)+link+this+Weir's+process+description.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7170085

>>7169822
>Solomon J. Solomon's approach to drawing is literally diametrically opposed to the Bargue approach. SJS recommends you do a contour drawing (literally just copying the outline of an object through observation)
Not him;he indeed seems to argue against **rushed** block-ins, but:

> I looked at the cast, my eyes almost closed, and then drew the space, under A, lying between the neck and the jaw, a little island of black, treating the shape of it as I would a freehand drawing.
> https://archive.org/details/practiceoilpain00sologoog/page/n29/mode/2up

Meaning, he identifies shadow shapes, and refine from there. While Bargue plates are commonly presented with a not-so-rushed block-in, we don't know for sure whether the student was expected to draw them before proceeding: that's the common modern interpretation, but we could argue that it's not the author's intention.

For example, consider the unfinished arm of picrel, drawn by a student working at Gérôme's atelier: the state of this arm is basically a simple light-shadow dichotomy, as exemplified by almost all the simple Bargue plates. More refined plates build from this dichotomy and add details.

Image from https://ramonhurtado.com/19cdatabase

>There was never such a thing as the "french academic system".
Indeed in the usual sense. But there was, and still is, an academy originally established by a king, originally meant to encourage a certain degree of technical excellence.

The French from that periods were much more commendable in art or mathematics than they are today, and there seems to have been a certain prevalent mindset of striving for some ideal of perfection that you don't see in other countries. Russia for example seems to encourage a way more pragmatic, perhaps less dogmatic way that the French.

> There were tons of private ateliers which each had a different approaches
This is correct, as shown in the incomplete works of different ateliers from the previous link.

>> No.7170107

>>7169663
funny movie
>>7169822
>you will never be able to paint like that
I didn't say I wanted to be a painter or a master of arts or whatever, I just want to draw because I want to draw what comes to mind, I don't want to be a professional, I just want to draw well
are you going to help or just babble?

>> No.7170784
File: 320 KB, 1045x1500, boime.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7170784

does anybody have a copy of this book? I'd like to dive into the 19th century academic style.

>> No.7171078

>>7170784
it doesn't teach art

>> No.7171404

>>7170784
You're better off reading Frank Fowler's books for that and grinding master copies. Boime's book is a meme for the uninitiated.

>> No.7171419
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7171419

>>7170107
That's your run-of-the-mill shitposter. Hide and ignore.

OP, thinking more about it I would suggest you look into pic rel - you can find it on libgen and elsewhere, and there is a full length video here as well - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3y6k_vk_Vg&list=PL0DDE1A8DCCD9882C..

It's dated and not quite 19th century academic but the book itself is an excellent intro to the over all process of imaginative drawing and just putting things down and working through them using, more or less, a process that lends itself to it. You won't go wrong using it and applying it.

In particular the practice of doing things like drawing through, using 3D volumes and whatnot will be indispensable to you. The practices are much older than 19th century and are a good way to work in general.

There is way more ground to cover than possible here. Expect that it will take a bit of time for you to pick this up and always be learning and practicing. Try to get into what the authors are discussing and find a way to apply it. Every little bit helps, it's not an easy thing to draw.

I suspect you have some vague idea of what you like about the warriors and the drama, but you may not be able to put it into words. If only you could draw it instead, right? If you have a life drawing class near you, I would say go and enroll into that as well, and apply the same principles from books to life drawing and from life drawing to books. Life drawing cultivates a deeper kind of art appreciation that will allow you to bring out what you really like about the mythological paintings of warriors.

>> No.7171574

>>7171078
>>7171404
I don't want the book to learn the practical side of the academic method, I have other sources for that. I'm just interested in the history, its influences and ramifications. Also, Colleen Berry recommends it :?

>> No.7171681

>>7168085
Ooh mama that tummy I want to bite that soft defenseless tummy

>> No.7171835

>>7171574
I thought it was more available but it isn't, and the ones that are available are priced to extort.

I bought it for $20 long time ago. I'll see if I can destroy my copy and scan it if I can find it. I guess people really like the trivia of this stuff.

>> No.7171942

>>7171835
Thank you so much anon. If the thread dies, please follow up on /trad/, my usual hangout.

>> No.7171967

>>7171419
I don't like marvel and superheroslop

>> No.7173772

.

>> No.7173783

>>7171574

Its on zlibrary at the new address

>> No.7173784

>>7171967
ur retarded if you think marvel and anime are different skills

>> No.7174358

>>7173784
and who says I want to draw like a jap?

>> No.7174399

>>7168111
checked retardation

>> No.7175009
File: 215 KB, 786x769, boime albert.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7175009

>>7173783
I can't seem to find it there. Can you share the second part of the url for it? The /book/whatever part of the url? Thanks

>> No.7175057

>>7168085
>Are there any books for beginners on how to draw in the classical academic way?

When it comes to the classical way of drawing, there's essentially three schools.

The French is the most prestigious, very strictly based on observation and sight-size, and is exemplified by Bargue plates and cast / life drawing. The goal is to see reality and record it on paper or canvas. It doesn't take that long to learn - a few years of full-time study gets you really good, but it's not vert useful for drawing from imagination.
>Charles Bargue and Jean-Leon Gerome - Drawing Course
>https://ramonhurtado.com/19cdatabase
Carolus Duran and Sargent can be seen as offshoots of this school, which extends to Richard Schmid.
>Sargent Portrait Drawings: 42 Works by John Singer Sargent (or a better quality source if you can find one)
>Richard Schmid - Alla Prima II - Expanded Edition

The Russian is probably the most challenging, relies much more on composition and construction. It will take years of dedicated study to get good at - and with dedicated I mean 8+ hours a day for like 7 years straight. There's less focus on cast drawing and complex plates; more emphasis is put on drawing things like classical pillars in perspective, anatomy, and - again - life drawing. A lot of it.
>B.C. Шapoв - Aкaдeмичecкoe oбyчeниe изoбpaзитeльнoмy иcкyccтвy (Academic Training in Fine Arts)
>Vladimir Mogilevtsev - Anatomy of Human Figure: The Guide for Artists
>Vladimir Mogilevtsev - Teaching Drawing
>Vladimir Mogilevtsev - Fundamentals of Drawing

>> No.7175059

>>7175057
(cont)
The last but not necessarily the least, the American school. Here the focus is a lot on simplification to meet the commercial demands. Construction is necessary to adapt perspective and to avoid hiring expensive models for a long time, and simplification is necessary for speed of both training and of work itself. Very good style for commercial illustration, comics, etc.
>George Bridgman - The Complete Guide to Drawing from Life
>Kimon Nicolaides - The Natural Way to Draw: A Working Plan for Art Study
>Eadweard Muybridge - The Human Figure in Motion
>Steve Huston - Figure Drawing for Artists: Making Every Mark Count
>Ralph Garafola - Frank J. Reilly The Elements of Painting
Adjacent but not directly related, and much less academic in approach:
>Andrew Loomis - Drawing the Head & Hands
>Andrew Loomis - Figure Drawing
>Andrew Loomis - Creative Illustration
More modern American academic schools, I.E Watts Academy and the ilk, tend to merge aspects of the earlier American Schools of academic drawing with the French style, and sometimes include elements of comics / cartooning as well.

>I like how the French and Italian masters
For the French, see French academic drawing above. The Italian masters predate academic training and relied more on natural talent and master-apprentice relationships. Little factual information about the training remains, except for the fact that Michelangelo definitely drew a number of old greek/roman statues. You best bet is doing that, if feasible, and else relying on reproductions of the Italian masters' graphic work.
>Thomas Popper - Michelangelo, 1475-1564: The Graphic Work
>Catherine Whistler - Raphael: The Drawings
>Adelheid M. Gealt - Giambattista and Domenico Tiepolo: Master Drawings from the Anthony J. Moravec Collection

>> No.7175061

>>7175059
(cont)
>I also like Frank Franzetta's style
Frazetta goes in the American Academic Drawing tradition. Bridgman's influence is clearly noticeable. Apart from that, a lot of his works have survived and due to his popularity a lot of them have also been documented in book form.
>J David Spurlock - Fantastic Paintings of Frazetta
>J. David Spurlock - Frazetta Book Cover Art: The Definitive Reference (Definitive Reference Series, 3)
>Arnie Fenner - Legacy: Selected Paintings and Drawings by the Grand Master of Fantastic Art, Frank Frazetta

There are also some books that are just helpful in general, no matter what branch of academic drawing you're interested in. They don't really subscribe to any specific school.
>Robert Beverly Hale - Drawing Lessons from the Great Masters
>Glenn Vilppu - Vilppu Drawing Manual
>Uldis Zarins - Anatomy for Sculptors
And if you want to enjoy autism:
>Scott Robertson - How to Draw
>Scott Robertson - How to Render

>> No.7175125

How did you arrive at all this though?
I'm calling you out with a pyw, if you actually knew all these works and tried them out you should also be pretty good yourself by this point.

>> No.7175126

>>7175057
>>7175059
>>7175061

>>7175125

>> No.7175200
File: 529 KB, 3024x4032, 20240130_212651.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7175200

>>7175125
I have a musicology / music history degree, which got me into (visual) art history of which I've taken some courses. I've also been studying fine arts in evening/weekend university courses. The books are listed based on my knowledge of art history and recommendations by my teachers. I have read most of them, though some are only available in Russian which I am not fluent in. I have done some exercises from them, mostly Bridgman, Loomis and some of the early Bargues.

I mostly do printmaking. I am not great at drawing, though probably above average for this board. Picrel is a sketch for a woodcut print that I've posted on this board before. I am aware that the hands and feet are wonky.

>> No.7175240

>>7175200
you made him a manlet, thanks for all the posts tho, interesting stuff

>> No.7175256

>>7168111
don't let them silence you

>> No.7175260

>>7175200
you have redeemed yourself, Sir. Now we know you're not some sperg that hoards shit he does not understand.

>> No.7175598

>>7168085
Look for Stephen Bauman on Patreon

>> No.7175602
File: 1022 KB, 1573x2865, 6E29A9B4-E7F8-4534-9C17-122F74EDB359.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7175602

>>7175260
He did put in a genuine amount of effort into the post which is good. I will critique this armchair art history thing when the work posted is inadequate and the knowledge is all second third hand stuff. I personally don’t put much stock into it as it applies to actual skill training. But at least there’s some work posted which is better than nothing.

IMHO most of the discussion won’t address the OP’s question which is drawing buff dudes and hot babes. The various schools etc is a bit of a meandering topic. You can get started without going into any of this shit. The sticky is a good first pass. The warriors and babes proceed afterwards.

Pic rel rando sketch from a ruski book. Was thinking of using it for a painting, just liked it and made the lateral side so thicc he’s got an extra toe lurking in there.

>> No.7175606
File: 97 KB, 899x1599, WhatsApp Image 2024-05-22 at 14.53.35.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7175606

>>7168085
Study Bargue

>> No.7175758
File: 212 KB, 1200x1600, ear.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7175758

>>7175606
How's my ear coming along? Doing it from an actual cast, not from a drawing.

>> No.7175761

>>7175758
Great so far, rendering wise;I can only assume that you've been as cautious with your proportions

>> No.7175767

>>7175761
Thanks. My drawing is slightly off, the ear is slightly too wide for its height. But it's ok, next cast I'll nail it. I'm really enjoying the process and that's all that matters.

>> No.7175781
File: 94 KB, 1038x1454, WhatsApp Image 2024-04-19 at 17.30.22.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7175781

>>7175758
wow great render =)
I teach Bargue in my Atelier
this is mine >>

>> No.7175812

>>7169161
>Don't hoard, don't look for Le Perfect Course, just get to work and practice.
/thread
It took me years to realize no matter how many video courses or drawing books I went thru I'd never improve much past a certain point.
All you have to do is start drawing.
>>7168085
>Are there any books for beginners on how to draw in the classical academic way?
It's funny to read this, classic artists didn't read books or watch courses, all they did was draw under a master guidance.

>> No.7175825

>>7175812
>>>7168085 (OP)
>>Are there any books for beginners on how to draw in the classical academic way?
>It's funny to read this, classic artists didn't read books or watch courses, all they did was draw under a master guidance.


yea..for real.

>> No.7175858

>>7175812
yeah maybe it's funny, but what I mean is that we don't have masters so books are like a substitute

>> No.7175865

>>7175825
buying a book like say Alla Prima from someone whose teacher directly trained under those masters and then he in turn meticulously gives out every bit of accumulated knowledge those masters had over the centuries, so that book really is the best option available for "studying under a master" for most ppl.

>> No.7175881

>>7175865
That's right, and when any doubt arises, you write a letter to the professor who wrote the book, as the old masters did in their time.

>> No.7175884

>>7175865
Thinking like this, you don't need to go to university anymore, just buy the book on the subject and read it.
At the end of the course, we will give you a certificate.

>> No.7175891

>>7175881
>>7175884
Not him but you haven't read the last bits carefully enough:
> so that book really is the best option available for "studying under a master" for most ppl.

He knows it's not perfect. But it's a good alternative when you can't study under a master because of time, availability, money or whatever

>> No.7175900

>>7175602
>>7175606
>>7175758
>>7175781

Bargue Plates - I have found the high quality PDFs online. Is it ok to just print them on A3 Paper? Or do I really have to print them full size? Couldn't I just make them bigger so they fill more of the page and then print them in A3?

Is there a source that sells them in the right size? And why is nobody capitalizing on this, I could imagine people paying good money for a full set of them, right size, good quality print.

>> No.7175904
File: 127 KB, 800x800, bargue-plate-i-30-jambe-de-l-esclave-mourant-legs-of-dying-slave.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7175904

>>7175900
Any size is good. A3 is just fine.

Online PDFs all suck as far as I've saw. Someone posted a collection of good JPG scanned from the book at some point here, and you've got more good JPG in the links below

> And why is nobody capitalizing on this
https://bargueplate.supply/
https://shop.charlesbargueprints.com/en/14-all-products

Second one are real lithographs made from the originals, hence the outrageous price.

>> No.7175905

>>7175900
No one is capitalizing on Bargue's work because the training plates are so old that the light produced is not the original reading of the sculptures.
In themselves they serve as construction guidance, but they are not good for studying light.
To this end, it is common to have copies of plaster sculptures in the studio.
Or the current photos of the sculptures, with the light manipulated for the studio.
Another point, you don't study a drawing using another drawing as a reference. It's just a construction guide.
Study light with reference to another artist’s study. Not a good start.
Master copy is another type of training.

>> No.7175906

>>7175905
and there are photos of the sculptures, a much better way to study light.
Some pieces are made available in high resolution by museums.

>> No.7175907
File: 1.52 MB, 2480x3508, belvedere torso cinza.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7175907

>>7175906

>> No.7175908

>>7175891
some said Stephen Bauman online Patreon

>> No.7176343

>>7175904
>>7175905
>>7175907
Thank you so much! Very interesting! :D
I really appreciate you tradchads on this board, actual elite tier posters.

>> No.7176542

>>7175905
> the training plates are so old that the light produced is not the original reading of the sculptures.
They're not that old (100 years give or take), and regarding the light, it's definitely on purpose.

>To this end, it is common to have copies of plaster sculptures in the studio.
The goal of having casts around is to better understand how Bargue interpreted things.

This process of training was already suggested by Da Vinci: https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/46915/pg46915-images.html#Chap_I

>>7175908
Yes it's a good option too, but more expensive if you want the critiques, and all slots are taken atm (https://www.patreon.com/stephenbaumanartwork))

>> No.7176611

>>7169357
>Solomon J. Solomon's book on Oil Painting is in-fucking-valuable.
How do I purchase it?
archive.org has a scan that seems too bad to he useful. No shops (including antique ones) seem to have it.

>> No.7176620
File: 1.77 MB, 4964x3508, belvedere torso bargue.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7176620

>>7176542
>> the training plates are so old that the light produced is not the original reading of the sculptures.
>They're not that old (100 years give or take), and regarding the light, it's definitely on purpose.

No, its not.
Look the Plate side by Photo.

Again, you don't study a drawing using another drawing as a reference. The light is totally different.

>> No.7176629

>>7176620
Perhaps we have a communication issue, it seems both of us aren't native English speakers.

What I am saying is that Bargue purposefully adjusted reality in many occasions: he stylized the drawings. An obvious example is how he omitted details to focus on the general form, or how he tends to flatten the shadows.

>>7176611
It's on amazon.com

>> No.7176632

>>717662
I fully agree.

>> No.7176640

>>7169357
>Boime
What is that?

>> No.7176682

>>7175884
>Thinking like this, you don't need to go to university anymore, just buy the book on the subject and read it.
Lol this is literally it for math. I self-studied a lot of undergrad math from textbooks to the point I was better than most of my peers in grad school. Going to grad school only made me learn much slower with far less depth.

>> No.7176731

>>7176682
I've got an essentially similar experience: I really only started to get good at and really enjoy doing maths when I started learning it on my own, while being able to go as deep as I wanted.

School sucks. Teachers aren't always good at what they teach, nor at teaching it, students are too heterogeneous in terms of skills and motivation, programs seems to be written by people who don't or have never taught: it's a nightmare.

Not all maths books are fantastic, but thanks to the Internet, it's easy to find good ones, to cherry pick from many.

>> No.7177004
File: 2.02 MB, 1080x1215, Screenshot_20240523-214518.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7177004

>>7170085
>>7175057
>familiar with Hurtado

Fucking based, you and Hurtado.

Got any more info on the russian school? I follow a bunch of the imperial academy kids/grads and the good ones all share this hallmark style that I love. It's more or less as accurate as the GCA stuff but less painstakingly rendered and very lively. But still accurate! There's lots of places that are just like 'loosen up to be lively' but they lose the likeness. These russians don't.

>> No.7177007
File: 1.46 MB, 1080x1151, Screenshot_20240523-215032.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7177007

Another contemporary russian w/ model to show what I mean

>> No.7177027

>>7177004
>Got any more info on the russian school?
https://www.amazon.com/Risunok-Osnovy-uchebnogo-akademicheskogo-risunka/dp/B0057F4KMW

And the Mogilevtsev books. There are online pdfs, random quality, but sufficient.

>> No.7177234

Are there any alternatives to Bargue plates, preferably something with bit more cross-hatching? What I want is a large organised collection of drawings of a single artist that I can copy from.

>> No.7177287
File: 293 KB, 1218x1600, 8c7bcfa6c7989d0b84bf537b9d88b279.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7177287

>>7177234
Julien's "cours de dessin", beware of the quality of some of the printed books; there are online individual plates & pdfs of variable quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvvS7F17x5g;pdfs quality aren't great;multiple artists, less tight than Julien

>> No.7177587

>>7177287
Is there anything in a more modern style?

>> No.7177601

>>7168085
You’ve already gotten plenty of advice on material so I figured you could use some method :
I highly recommend starting out with still-lifes on a “grid” method. Helps you study proportions, texture, shadows, etc. It’s boring but it gets the job done.
When you can, ABSOLUTELY do take live model drawing classes along side anatomy studies from books and pictures.
My two cents on how you can improve just a little faster.

>> No.7177633

>>7177587
Not that I know of; it's not like cross-hatching techniques have changed since the early 1900s. Not sure what You'd expect

>> No.7177673

>>7177027
>https://www.amazon.com/Risunok-Osnovy-uchebnogo-akademicheskogo-risunka/dp/B0057F4KMW

is there a pdf of this beauty somewhere?

>> No.7177696

>>7177633
I just prefer the less refined style of modern artists. Robert Liberace is a nice middle ground. I also like how they can sometimes get more abstract like Patrick J Jones, or Jeff Haines. Old school art just seems too rigid to me; literally even: their gestures seem to be pretty stiff at times.

>> No.7177728

>>7177696
Look at the Russian book then

>>7177673
Yes, look for the ISBN on annas, google, whatever

>> No.7177805

>>7177728
>Yes, look for the ISBN on annas, google, whatever
Found it, thank you

>> No.7177818
File: 103 KB, 1536x439, Bargue-Stages-AAA-m-1536x439.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7177818

>>7169822
>whereas with the Bargue method you start with a simplified block in, focusing on the largest shapes first completely ignoring the contour until the last stage
This is objectively wrong. Shading is only done when the contour is already perfectly defined.

>> No.7177843

>>7177818
>This is objectively wrong. Shading is only done when the contour is already perfectly defined.
NTA; the way Bargue is practiced nowadays is probably not what was originally intended. But even then, look more closely at that sample: at the notan stage, the contour is still largely unrefined.

>> No.7177857

>>7175781
This is beautiful!

>> No.7178198

>>7175781
Now, let's see you draw from imagination.

>> No.7178404

>>7178198
Now, let's see you draw from a cast

>> No.7178421

>>7177004
pls send a list of these accounts

>> No.7178548
File: 3.13 MB, 1936x2592, 2014-03-05 19.55.16.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7178548

>>7178198
OK.

>> No.7178549

>>7178198
more?

>> No.7178551
File: 271 KB, 1079x1317, WhatsApp Image 2023-11-14 at 14.39.37.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7178551

>>7178198

>> No.7178560

>>7177857
Thanx

>> No.7178677

>>7178198
/beg/let cope, always have to undermine the efforts of others

>> No.7179228

>>7178198
absolutely mogged. Cope harder nigger

>> No.7179233

>>7169365
>WTF am I looking at here. Are you just meant to copy this?
Fucking millenialls man. It's a GOD DAMN BOOK, YOU MORON. You READ IT. Everything is explained in there! Boomers were fucking right with their jokes about kids not knowing how to use books, jesus fucking christ, your mom should've swallowed that night or now I wouldn't have to take my high pressure medication after reading something as mindbogglingly retarded as your post

>> No.7181907
File: 95 KB, 693x584, 1543605070395.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7181907

>>7178198

>> No.7182228

>>7178551
hella metal

>>7178198
The kind of shit this board must endure. Post some work nigger

>> No.7182655

>>7182228
Aggretsuko =)