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/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

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7167998 No.7167998 [Reply] [Original]

The Russian academic approach is that you learn to constructively understand things so well that your imagination drawings can be anything you want effortlessly, right?

Makes sense, but proko was trained in the academic style and his imagination drawings suck? He seems to need a model or reference to draw the simplest things

>> No.7168003

proko is a great teacher but he is not a great artist when it comes to drawing anything but humans. Like in the Zoo video where Aaron Blaise draws mogs the fuck out of him

>> No.7168026

He got derailed by america's "artistic culture". If he wanted to be an artist for teal, he should have stayed there. But he wanted to be a showman with his top hat and a big fake smile, prancing around, doing bad jokes and clown shit for the "audience". At some point he will go back to his russian slavic roots. But he will be old. And he will do it for himself, not for the crowds.
Also this>>7168003

>> No.7168038

Proko was not.trainrd by the Russians. He was trained by jeff watts

The better question is why is Russian academic art so soulless?

>> No.7168044

Ask yourself why this "academic" approach hasn't produced a single animator, cartoonist, or visionary of any stripe and you have your answer

>> No.7168047

>in the Zoo video where Aaron Blaise draws mogs the fuck out of him
Aaron Blaise would mog most artists when it comes to drawing animals.
The guy is an animal & creature specialist besides being a great 2d animator.

>> No.7168048
File: 142 KB, 800x1150, FHdcP5oXoAk_jq5.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>The better question is why is Russian academic art so soulless?
They make their students memorize the entire skeleton and dissect cadavers.

And obviously, if all you study are skeletons and corpses, your drawings will look like a corpse.

If you want as much life as possible in your art, you should avoid studying the skeleton as far as possible. Study the living, pulsating muscles. Study like Burne Hogarth

>> No.7168051
File: 103 KB, 1280x720, chameleon.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Sure but Proko has a serious problem when it comes to drawing anything that isn't a human, the Aaron Blaise video is just one example, there are many. All his drawing from imagination videos are kinda bad, he has the fixation with line quality in the very beginning of the drawing and it always ends up looking like crappy clipart because of it

>> No.7168055

you are confusing two different academic approaches. Yes the russian approach uses construction heavily, but the western academic approach barely uses that method.

They mostly teach sight-size copying with gradually increasing difficulty. So you start with bargue plates, move to plasters and so on. Essentially turning you into a copy machine. By the end of you can copy any artist, from life etc.

But in terms of constructive drawing, inventing figures in spaces or creating imaginative scenes - no. Everyone trained solely on the copying approach sucks at this. Just look at Jeff Watts drawings from imagination - Prokos teacher. They are high-beg tier shit.

Everything comes at a price. You can also go down the scott robertson autism approach, construct everything from scratch and supplement it with life-drawing skills without ever becoming an academy-tier far machine. It really depends on what you want at the end of the day.

Maybe the best middle ground is to mix construction with life-drawing like the russians do but somehow avoid that lifeless stiff look they produce. Also, before anyone asks, I have no work to post. I just no from lurking this board for fucking a decade now what the different approaches are. I also collected all the artbooks and shit but eventually never did anything.

I am 26 now and I've been through too much shit to know what to do with my life anymore. I am talking serious shit like homelessness and child abuse. I mainly come here because I like the people, I like looking at peoples drawings, no matter how bad. It's cozy and just seeing people be creative is therapeutic to me.

About Proko - again, since I have been here so long I know all the proko lore. I was literally there when the livestream with the "kangaroo" happened. I remember seeing the thread announcing it beforehand. I was watching it unfold.

Cont. in next reply, I will explain what happened to Proko.

>> No.7168064

As any oldfag here can tell you, Proko started out NOT DRAWING! - His earliest known works were 3d animations he did. Cartoony stuff. So really, he wanted to be a fun-guy, fun artist, doing cartoons, comics.
Then he got the offer to join Watts-Atelier-Of-Burned-Faces. Big mistake. For the next 10 years Proko was slowly turned into a Fax Machine, never developing his actual passion, to be a comic artist/cartoonist. This haunts him to this day. For instance, I remember he posted this terrible, terrible comic with two talking dogs and something with triangles, idk, it was trash. He constantly is trying to recapture that spark he had decades ago, before he picked the wrong path.

Other artists also don't respect him. Again, oldfags will remember the interview with Steve Huston where Proko is just out of place. This is why it is important to know what you want and then stick to it. Proko jumped the gun and got on the wrong train. It is very sad, honestly.

He further shot himself in the foot by accepting a teaching position at Watts slave factory. He is now financially tethered to this job, with little time to do other stuff. Whenever I watch Proko, I just get sad, depressed vibes. He just seems in pain all the time. Don't be Proko.

That's all I will say on that. Do what actually feeds your soul.

Oh and btw, Jeff Watts is the same. Just so everyone knows, Jeff started out being an athlete, doing sports. He only started doing art because he wanted to please his dad. In one video long ago he said the classic cope line of "I have no kids, but I consider my students to be my kids." He is a lonely old man who made the wrong decision, like Proko. Like Master, so Student.

That's all for now. If anyone is reading this, your art gives me joy no matter how shit it is, I come here just for the healing effect it has on me to see people create something. Keep working, it's bigger than you. Bye.

>> No.7168068
File: 483 KB, 1103x1563, russian.png.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>The Russian academic approach is that you learn to constructively understand things

> so well that your imagination drawings can be anything you want effortlessly, right?

I leave the details to you: pick up some Russian drawings and study.

>Proko was not.trainrd by the Russians. He was trained by jeff watts
TBF, Watts relies heavily on construction.

>Ask yourself why this "academic" approach hasn't produced a single animator, cartoonist, or visionary of any stripe and you have your answer
Conversely, I've yet to see an animator being able to come up with something like picrel

>The better question is why is Russian academic art so soulless?
See picrel, among many others

>> No.7168069

>Conversely, I've yet to see an animator being able to come up with something like picrel

holy shit he turned his peenus into a light-bulb! GENIUS!

>> No.7168071

>This school was started by Silas H. Rhodes and Burne Hogarth in 1947
Just look at all those ultrachads it mastercrafted; what the fuck??
I appreciate this

>> No.7168073
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I don't even think Proko or Watts are sad. I could speculate I guess, but in many ways they've been successful.
Proko though, is just not creative in the slightest. Art school didn't beat it out of him, he just never had "it" to begin with. It really does seem to be inborn to a degree, or at least something that is cultivated in childhood.
On a purely technical level this Joe Murray drawing is unimpressive, so why can't Proko (and the vast majority of people) do it? It's all in the feeling, you got it or you don't.

>> No.7168074

>Conversely, I've yet to see an animator being able to come up with something like picrel
Why would anyone want to, beyond impressing moms, children, and pastors? Serious question

>> No.7168079

>just seeing people be creative is therapeutic to me
Holy shit, you nailed it, I visit this board for the same reason (and also because I draw and post sometimes, but still). Thank you for your write-up anon, I hope your current life is much better now than this shit you went through.
Also sorry for the out-of-place question, but what happened on the kangaroo stream? I don't know.

>> No.7168084

bro what exactly did the artist who made the pic come up with? Nudity?
its a naked dude holding a hammer, with a light-bulp dick. The execution is high effort, probably took months of autism to produce this.

But ultimately it's unremarkable. You can spend years etching away at something and it's still shit. The guy who posted it is just worshiping russian artists because that's his identity. People do that all the time, they pick teams. It's the artist version of supporting a football team. Most good art is just luck.

Think of any good artist in any field you know, and then look up how many works they produced and how many are famous. How many of beethovens pieces do you know? 1-2? Same for Mozart. How many did they make? Probably 100s.

That's another thing, apex fallacy hits hard with this shit. Yeah sure, you can show some really high effort russian paintings so fucking what? It's like showing the Sistine Chapel and acting like this is the level all western art is at.

How a piece turns out is just luck, you can not decide beforehand how it will be received. Some pieces of art are trashed upon release and celebrated later - like Moby Dick for example. So all this worshiping of different groups and schools is completely pointless, it's just sucking your own dick to seem sophisticated.

Instead people should ask themselves why they even feel the need for this kind of insecure posturing in the first place. Why are they not making art for people? It takes only a few hours of studying and you can produce art that brings joy to 80-90% of the population. Why not do that, feed your soul by making others happy? Draw something cool, give it to a child when you go outside. Or the guy next door. Make some friends. Stop being insecure.

An anon here long ago recommended a book by a jazz musician called "effortless mastery" - author is Kenny Werners. Get that. It's not your standard self-help trope. It speaks about doing less, relaxing and being realistic.

>> No.7168093

I am working on slowly digging myself out of this shit yeah. It is much better now than in the past.
Also no problem with the question.

Basically People were hounding Proko about drawing from imagination. He announces a livestream. People here go wild, its happening, balsy bla. Proko tries to draw... a kangaroo with boxing gloves? Nobody knows but he got fucking obliterated. It looked like a fucking miscarriage.

As far as I can recall, an avalanche of memes rained down on him. He privated the livestream. It was like the destruction of pompei, he could not contain the ever advancing pyroclastic flow of memes engulfing everything he had built online.

It's just sad man. He also started putting all these cringy "quirky" jokes into his videos which further alienated his audience - again, betraying his true nature of wanting to be a funny cartoonist. Proko is a man devoid of gusto. His Faustian gambit backfired and fate came to collect. Don't be Proko, listen to your soul.

You and me, we unironically get more joy out of art than him at this point.

>> No.7168099


Beauty, technical achievement, love for mastery.

Normies might be impressed, but it'll only last a few seconds. They're not the intended target audience.

Wrapped in cloth. I've never understood why people choose to draw dongs when they can be easily hidden. Gay af.

>> No.7168100

>Wrapped in cloth. I've never understood why people choose to draw dongs when they can be easily hidden. Gay af.


>> No.7168108

He made one of my favourite books... But how did Burne Hogarth study?

>> No.7168110

how do I do the exact opposite of Proko

>> No.7168112

I was joking, but that's just gross, I don't want to spend time drawing dongs, it's utterly uninteresting. Same for vaginas.

>> No.7168120
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My question is what approach gives you the insanely soulful golden age illustration stuff like Dean Cornwell or the old inkers?

They're technically as good as the Russians and they don't draw soulless shit

>> No.7168161

no offense taken, you demonstrated maturity in your reply. I just don't like elitism -.-7

Idk dude, be really clear about what you want with yourself. Sacrifices are unavoidable and you can't always go back and take a different path. So pick carefully. Train your self-awareness by writing a biography of your life, just for yourself. Breakdown from the beginning why you are the way you are. This will help you understand what drives you, where your insecurities are and when you are projecting or coping to protect yourself.

Personally, I never felt safe around my family so I became giga afraid of showing weakness to the point where I have no sense of identity. As a result of constantly fearing punishment, I am always on edge, looking for threats.

Just work yourself through your entire life, figure out how your current persona was formed and then you can start using art as a tool to shape yourself in the future. You can define why you do it, what you get out of it.

Another experiment you can do is to set a timeframe, i.e. 1-2 hours and just write down every single thing you do, every thought. Literally everything. In list form. What you see is that you have way more thoughts and actions than you think. These 1-2 hours will seem like an eternity when you do this. Most of our life is spent unconsciously.

That's another thing, slow down. The slower you work, the better your art will become. Just live a more deliberate life.

>> No.7168166

Lol, thanks for the trivia. Didn't know he actually was shit at drawing. At least I didn't follow his guides, phew

>> No.7168179

>They're technically as good as the Russians
Not really

>I just don't like elitism
To be clear, there's snob-fart-sniffing-elitism, to be distinguished from genuine appreciation of fine stuff. The former is some sort of virtue signaling, while the latter indicates a developed sense of beauty.

The two can easily be confused, and the latter is as rare as the average man is shallow.

>> No.7168184

He'd probably be good at digital if he kept at it and trained his imagination muscles but he just wants to be a quirky businessman.

>> No.7168185

you talk about as if drawing from reference to create what he did is easy
idk dude, he was doodling something he wasn't sure about. the difference between you and him is that you aren't on stream

either way, he did learn how to draw kangaroos

>> No.7168187

>be chinese or Russian
>autistically grind the knowledge if every fiber of human anatomy into their brain
>do absolutely nothing with it and draw the same generic turbo autism shit over and over again
>still get mogged by the western greats who died hundreds of years ago
You can train the craft of drawing into soulless mongol but you cannot train the western soul.

Even in the decayed state that is in right now, modern western illustration soul mog all Russian academic shit into the ground.

>> No.7168189
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Lol, thanks for the confidence boost

>> No.7168224

>Proko has a serious problem when it comes to drawing anything that isn't a human
I agree with you anon, I just felt it's unfair to compare any artist with Aaron Blaise in the drawing animal niche.
He's even better than most furry artists.

>> No.7168250

Watching this I feel bad for the guy. Why did he even go through with it?

>> No.7168258

Never learn anatomy.

>> No.7168312

> Just look at Jeff Watts drawings from imagination
Got an example? I did a virtual scene composition class with his dad and was kinda bored with how much of it was arranging references you copy together rather than any imagination work.

I've been enjoying Proko's hard pivot to working with comic book artists because all of them are pros at imaginative work.

>> No.7168377

The secret sauce strategy is develop hyperphantasia (Yes, this is a trainable skill) and then project and copy what you see

>> No.7168434
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>doesn't draw
>makes up elaborate schizo theories about people more successful than him
What the actual fuck

>> No.7168460

I have hyperphantasia when I'm high, but it hasn't materialized in any real art gains. If anything I draw much worse.

Seeing something mentally and drawing correctly in space have overlap but not as much as I think you are implying.

>> No.7168490

Proko does not use the Russian method. He uses the Jeff Watts combination of Loomis and Reilly Rhythms which is a distinctly American invention.
You need technical skills to do excellent imaginative and creative work, so for that I recommend the Russian construction method as a helpful tool. The sight size method is far inferior.

>> No.7168491
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For how many years are we going to make this thread?

>> No.7168585


Good effort on these posts. Been here for years myself and I remember the kangaroo thing. In his defense it seems like he forgot what a kangaroo looks like so naturally he couldn't draw it on a whim for a livestream. Regardless, I am not a big fan of his work or Watts', their drawings and paintings are way the fuck too mannered for me and I doubt either has the subtly to capture how something really looks. Watts got everyone drawing their core shadows like they're shit chucking apes. But anyway...

There is a feeble connection between construction and imaginative drawing. You have people who can do decent scenes without knowing the ins and outs of construction, and you have plenty of people who know construction and anatomy but can't freehand a figure in space.

In a way you have two streams of fundamentals that underpin what people think of as fundamentals. The first one is observation. The second is arrangement. All the fundamentals rest on these two. Most people who give it a go focus on observation, but fail to apply their knowledge to execute an arranged piece, which is to say, to compose a scene that is influenced more by their tastes than what is necessarily in front of them, and to actively plan how they want the results to turn out.

To put it another way, if you can passably draw and render with a reasonably "steady" light source, you have more than enough knowledge to start to practice arrangement. The moment you know what a value structure is, and how to key values, any decently popular comic book out there that has been inked in black and white has plenty of work for you to get started with.

I still think The Skillful Huntsman is an excellent template book for how to go about executing imaginative drawing as a process. It is a process, and it has to be practiced regardless of construction. Majority of it has nothing to do with construction and it comes down to arrangements.

>> No.7168604


> to compose a scene that is influenced more by their tastes than what is necessarily in front of them, and to actively plan how they want the results to turn out.

To expand on this: trying to explain visual harmony and balance to someone who doesn't know exactly what you are talking about is like trying to describe the color "blue". There is nothing you can do. And yet, visual harmony, contrasts, repetitions, visual pulling and a sense of direction ("liveliness"/"jumping out") in a piece are fundamental and they have to be practiced until they are cultivated as qualities of work that are obvious to you, much like the color blue when you see it.

Many books written on the subject - Dow has at least one book on Notan. There's now Framed Ink. Again, I think Skillful Huntsman is somewhat underrated for what it can give to someone who is looking to do this kind of stuff outside of mere construction.

>> No.7168808

With proper imagination training you can project your imagination over your vision and straight up copy it

>> No.7168835

There's an /ic/ theory that most of the threads are created by one or two schizos (proko sucks, pixel schizo threads, trad vs. digital, twitter drama, le random stupid art learning question, loomis sucks, loomis is the best, bridgman sucks, bridgman is the best, ...)

>> No.7168886

Proko sucks and trad vs digital may be me.

>> No.7168897

Wouldn't surprise me, the way they make up stuff they can't possibly know is completely schizophrenic.

>> No.7168898

I've never heard any artist describe their process in this way, can you give any examples?

>> No.7168926

It's a super obscure method and most people learning it aren't doing it for art. For years people have just sort of assumed you can't train visualization and there has been barely any research done.
The one famous Asian dude does it. Listen to one of his interviews and you'll hear him describe how he can imagine the scene from every angle and then he just draws from his imagination. If you can draw from life but can't draw from your visualizations your visualizations simply aren't strong enough, the ideal point is to be able to imagine things with such depth that the scene is indistinguishable from reality.
Check out the hyperphantasia and curing aphantasia subreddits. I'm a /beg/ shitter but my art improved when I starting being able to imagine 3d scenes as I'm depicting them

>> No.7168931

I don't believe this. Must be a translation issue. if it were true, there would be western artists describing such phenomena(and having drawings to show for it)

>> No.7168953

>The one famous Asian dude does it.
are you talking about kim jung gi?

>> No.7168971

Like I said in my post, it isn't a common way to draw
Yep that was him

>> No.7169103
File: 31 KB, 493x493, 1696164124931800.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>I'm a /beg/ shitter
>but let me tell you how you can train yourself to do what a savant did, based on reddit pseudoscience
every time

>> No.7169120

are you a newfag or something, theres a thread abt him every other week

>> No.7169130

>just draw like KJG
why didnt I think of that

>> No.7169131

theres a lot of stupid people out there, when it still showed an ip count these types of threads had over 100 people posting and always got bumped the most
always a bunch of coping retards validating each other's ineptitudes

>> No.7169133

Don't limit yourself =)

>> No.7169158

>when it still showed an ip count
lol I was recently befuddled when looking for it and not finding it; didn't knew it's been removed.

>> No.7169160

Watts just loves to train and get better at things. In one of his rambling streams he talks about how in high school sports he didn't even really like the games, but he loved the training. Clearly he does the same thing to this day training in the gym and he trains art skills the same. He just loves training. Seems like he approaches teaching the same way. There's a lot you can learn from him obviously, but there's also a lot that you can't, because if you just follow everything he lays out for you you'll train to be an art teacher and not an artist. This is probably what happened to Proko.

Keep a goal in mind of the kind of art you want to make and train to that end. For example, if you only want to make landscapes with no figures in them, don't spend years learning figure drawing and gesture, etc. Proko trained to be an art teacher and not an artist, he learned the process without wanting to do anything with it specifically.

>> No.7169165

I purchased all of his courses, now I feel like shit, his art courses are so fucking mediocre, lack of content, I definitely learned more in Youtube watching free videos, I feel so fucking weird and stupid rn. :(((

>> No.7169229

>I purchased all of his courses, now I feel like shit, his art courses are so fucking mediocre
How many hours have you put into them? Also, post your work

>> No.7169265


>> No.7169266

This board is absolutely the worst among the one I visit, in just a few months you've already seen all iterations of the type of threads that get reposted ad nauseam over and over, the replies are all the same too, I wouldn't be surprised to find out it's mostly bots at this point. It's atrocious.

>> No.7169267

Hi Stan =)

>> No.7169268

Don't westoid the scumbag to talk about joy and goodness to others.

>> No.7169276

>It's atrocious.
Right? It's like the rambling of a mad man repeating the same things over and over.

We're sure we have some real schizos, there are specific threads like the Sorolla thread (with one nigger always pushing the pedo thing) or the Pollock or modern art thread (with one nigger feeling smart because he's read a little about composition). Here's a few of the latter I've saved:


See, I can't count how many times I've read that joke. I'm not a big fan of Proko's course, but if you actually put it a fair amount of work, they're good enough for you to gain.

>> No.7169352

I don’t need to post my work here. If I’ve learned anything, it’s from other artists and self-learning on YouTube. Proko’s courses are incredibly difficult to understand and apply in real life. Although Proko is good at drawing, his teaching skills leave much to be desired. For instance, the figure drawing course includes the gesture, the bean, the robobean, the structure, the landmarks, the mannequinization, the exaggeration, the proportions, the measuring, and the shading. However, there’s nothing about anatomy because you need to purchase another course that costs six hundred dollars. His way of explaining is so mediocre that it leaves you not understanding anything. Moreover, there is nothing in his courses that helps you understand how to apply these concepts in real-life scenarios. The courses also lack clarity and fail to provide guidance on how to incorporate this workflow into your daily work. And obviously, if you want to learn shading, you need to purchase another course.

>> No.7169354

Stan moved to that states at age 6, so all his training was American based.

His last teacher was Jeffery Watts, and Watts is a observational artists so he teaches observational art a lot more than art from imagination.

>> No.7169359

>There is a feeble connection between construction and imaginative drawing.
Holy shit you're smart. I had this thought for years now but I could never articulate it

>> No.7169755

the internet is dying

>> No.7169984

It's primarily based on how my art improved overnight after actively working on my visualization
Korean names all sound the same "hyung boo woo la wo gon gi"

>> No.7169991

>Korean names all sound the same "hyung boo woo la wo gon gi"
Koreans are white skinned, charismatic and beautiful, japs are dark skinned, cringe-retarded and ugly, aka jiggers.

>> No.7169998

Are you just mad that Japan fucked Korea so hard? Koreans and the Japanese are slave workers, the Koreans have it even worse.
After 20 plastic surgeries lmfao

>> No.7170004

>tinfoil lunatic catalogues random threads going back 5 years
>i-it's all one agent, maaaan,, internet is dead, maaaaaaan!!

>> No.7170055

Those were randomly fetched with a quick search. Many are missing;I've been there for maybe 5 or 6 years, I saw that thread quite often.

It's not just the that also anon. For example the Sorolla thread, say you report it and for once the janitor did their job. One or two days later you'd see a new Sorolla thread, same pic, and within the first few posts someone baiting the pedo thing again.

Same with the "where the dog at" thread, same with Pollock, etc.

If my memory's correct, there are unarchived /ic/ periods.

>> No.7170366

Because it's just plain high skill realism.

>> No.7171069
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>> No.7171097
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>If you want as much life as possible in your art, you should avoid studying the skeleton as far as possible.

>> No.7171101

I realized it looks like I'm disrespecting Hogarth here but no. Hogarth clearly knows about the skeleton because he otherwise wouldn't know where to put the muscles. There's a reason you should start with the skeleton, you blockhead.

>> No.7171106

Rey Bustos was taught by Hogarth and according to him the skeletal system is the most important part.