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/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

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File: 2.09 MB, 2698x2048, DC comic panels by Jorge Jimenez.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6984277 No.6984277 [Reply] [Original]

Why does /ic/ hate western comics so much? I like eastern stuff more, but I acknowledge there's plenty of good western comics and talented artists who can compete with the best artists in the east.

>> No.6984285

I don't think the art is the issue

>> No.6984313
File: 104 KB, 720x862, 1686183645580.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

If you're equating capeshit with comics, the problem is that nobody grew up with that crap except enthusiasts. Toonami was on the air in the 90s and 2000s, not legacy boomer shit. You couldn't even buy comics in regular stores for the most part. I've never read a single cape comic. Everybody's seen at least an episode of one of the TV shoes, the films do well, my mom can name some of iconic characters, but the source material (comics) is like jazz. Only hyper-enthusiasts and nostalgics care anymore.

On a deeper level, superheroes don't resonate with younger generations in the way manga did. Even with Marvel's attempts to rehabilitate them with the MCU. It feels like a really stale, overly specific meme from the 40s run into the ground. Leave it to American corps to just keep fucking spamming the same thing over and over and over again for those profit margins. We're the land of Disney after all.

>> No.6984326

/ic/ loves western comics though
Never heard anyone talk shit about Corto Maltese, Moebius
Same goes for the Japanese, they love franco belgian stuff and people from France and Belgium love manga. Nobody is competing with USA they started running 50 years earlier and USA is still doing warmup laps

>> No.6984357

capeshit is what people don't like. Some of these characters are close to 100 years old and they're still writing the same shit. I really don't know how people don't get tired of it. Manga has tons of different stories that are very different from one another so that's more appealing to younger people than generic boomer shit stories. There's a reason why Demon Slayer alone at least equalled all american comic sales.
There is a lot of good art in comic but it can't escape the context of being capeshit.

>> No.6984368


>> No.6984381

If that wasn't the case, the word "tranime" wouldn't start such shitstorm.

>> No.6984388
File: 114 KB, 431x640, a2c9d8b17d668041109d21096b85727e.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

the writing is the main problem.
I love western comics art, especially the 1990s stuff.

>> No.6984455

Everyone and their mom in current year wants to be drawing anime and manga anon, it's just how it is. Not saying that's good or bad, but seeing people take inspiration from classic comics is a lot more rare now

>> No.6984466

Capes (And the stagnation that define them)
Availability (Manga is easier to get than Comics)
America's disregard for their own art (Self explanatory if you're American).

>> No.6984774
File: 279 KB, 900x1138, 122801-planche-bd-bouncer-1763044235.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I don't hate Western comics, just American comics because their layouts are dog shit just like the thread pic. It's like they want to emulate manga and cinema at the same time but can't figure it out. I like european comics. The layouts are clean, the art is often done traditionally, and they have more variety in their stories

>> No.6984847

looks shitty like capeshit honestly

>> No.6985035

American Comics lack cultural relevancy, which means they mostly lack an audience, which just ends up preventing the industry from feeling comfortable taking risks on anything radically different or new in lieu of pumping out the same formula they know to just barely stay afloat. If you're just getting by, you're not going to risk the money you can barely scrape together on cooking some radically new dish. So the stories are always the same stale characters, in the same stale way, which continues to perpetuate the death of the industry. Because no one who would be interested in amero-capeshit is just finding out about comics. Everybody has seen or at least passingly been introduced to them and if they didn't interest you then, then you're shit out of luck cause that's all they got now.

>You show my comics to some illiterate fucking camel jockey in the middle of the Sahara, he's gonna turn around and say, "Superman", in perfect English.

>> No.6985039

This, capeshit stories are fucking boring garbage.

>> No.6985044

>t. kneejerk contrarian-sama

>> No.6985056

We don't. Also, there's plent of anime haters too since anime/manga is become a lot more mainstream now and sites like this will always be full of contrarians.

If we are being realistic, the wannabe mangaka are pure larp, most "anime kids" want to learn to draw at some point, the ones that are actually into drawing eventually branch off to other things even if anime is originally what got them into drawing. Those kids that grew out of anime but took drawing seriously would proably go onto actually making stuff either self-publishing (which is way more attainable and lucrative now than it was in the early 2000's or even just 10 years ago) or end up doing some stuff for some big brand (storyboards at Disney, inking or coloring for Marvel, variant cover arts for IDW stuff like that).

>> No.6985060
File: 201 KB, 902x1300, 1615361406458.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

It looks seriously trashy, anon. I'm not even seeing what distinguishes it as le superior euro alternative, it's more of the same no-style thing, it's literally how current cape comics look, down to the cheap colors and anti-style hatching.
Really most comics/manga are visual shlock, very few do anything daring or exciting or different. Cape's the worst about it but hardly alone.

>> No.6985064

that looks pretty good honestly, I just don't like the aesthetic/subject
same thing to me as those artists with god tier anatomy knowledge that draw muscular minotaurs on boxers or massively fat women

>> No.6985071
File: 454 KB, 1080x1604, You would'nt get it.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Haha yeah right.

>> No.6985074
File: 477 KB, 1200x1550, 91dfe78e3c072c1e0edf07c3b14e8be3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Western comics are brilliant, much more creative and artistically fulfilling than anything that has been or will be printed as a lazy ass manga. The issue is superhero comics, which are the death of creativity. No artist drawing a stablished superhero comic will be stupid enough to create ANYTHING new anymore, because the publishers would retain the intelectual rights to it.

But look up for Alberto Breccia (his Perramus, written by Juan Sasturain, is only comparable to the post-modern novels written by Pychon or Bolaño), Juan Giménez, Sergio Toppi... It's the closest we have as a legacy of fine arts. Not to mention less sofisticated artists that are also brilliant, like Bernie Wrightson, Jordi Bernet, Hugo Pratt etc.

>> No.6985077

I mean...yeah. Watchmen looks pretty good. Now if only that were the baseline for comics, period, but alas, not all men were destined for godhood.

>> No.6985082

western comics are fine, capes are shit

>> No.6985084


>> No.6985086

finally some good food

>> No.6985088
File: 240 KB, 721x1024, tanka11-9f0d4c82cfa857b90215774633847359-1024-1024.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Authors to check up: Jodorowsky, Antonio Segura (read Kraken, art by Jordi Bernet. You won't regret), Carlos Sampayo, Oesterheld (Eternautas is S tier).

Picrel is by Sergio Toppi

>> No.6985089
File: 257 KB, 1000x1431, H0484-L326785353.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Another Toppi

>> No.6985090
File: 240 KB, 979x1050, Mrs Pacman Fatman.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I do draw though anon.

>> No.6985092

Those names aren't 'Western', they sound very much non-White.

>> No.6985093
File: 406 KB, 1205x1600, tumblr_604cdedc25a6a889761d30d5087d3e36_a0a3bfd2_1280.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Forgot to mention Carlos Nine, the argentinian author that Disney and Pixar ripped off their style from (I know someone who visited Pixar for a workshop and they literally still copy Carlos Nine to this day, as a practice)

>> No.6985098
File: 183 KB, 585x885, Carlos-Nine-1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]


>> No.6985099
File: 84 KB, 600x596, Carlos-Nine-2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]


>> No.6985100

It's the strories and storytelling that's the issue sometimes. OP's artist is one of the few exceptions to the rules though. Even the coveted 90s comic artists always cited by people here such as >>6984388 were also heavily influenced by Japanese manga.

>> No.6985101

Are you retarded?

>> No.6985104

baste taste
thanks for the reccs

>> No.6985106
File: 369 KB, 1200x900, frankenstein-1200x900.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Bernie Wrightson's Frankenstein illustrations. If you're interested in horror, check up "Creepy presents: Bernie Wrightson". Really good stuff.

>> No.6985115

>anti-style hatching
That's a new one hahahaha are you for real mate?

>> No.6985117

no sweaty, see that anti-style hatching? that's so passé

>> No.6985118

Don't mention it. I just recently took comic art as an inspiration, because the level of creativity this guys working independently can achieve is off the charts. Comics are really a medium without limits. The Jodoverse (Incal and The Metabarons) for an example, rivals any sci-fi epic either in literature or cinema. And it was made by two motherfuckers with as little money as they needed to write and draw.

>> No.6985125
File: 249 KB, 976x1533, bruce timm.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

100% serious
Hatching kills so many drawings, because it's just "the thing to do" - thoughtless visual cliché that uncreative artists default to, to add a sense of form to the drawing. It's procedural work, following a plan. There are some artists who absolutely homerun smash it out of the park with hatching, of course, but very few execute at that level. Go for a cleaner look if you can't do it extremely well. Solid linework and smart, mindful aesthetic choices will carry the drawing and everything becomes so much more stylish and readable if done well, but it's not easy to think like a designer.

>> No.6985130
File: 50 KB, 349x500, met4.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Juan Gimenez. He did his comic book pages in fucking watercolor, btw.

>> No.6985149

>Everyone and their mom in current year wants to be drawing anime and manga

And this is a shame. The world is more interesting when there is variation. Things were way more kino when both industries were doing well back in the day.

>> No.6985153

I didn't claim that page to be the holy grail of western art. My gripe is the difference in paneling between american and european comics. I'm sorry that "anti-style hatching" murdered your parents, but that page is still more readable than the average american rag featuring schizo layouts because it's trying to hard to be a medium that it's not.

>> No.6985156

comic books are for children

>> No.6985159

>murdered your parents
You're being really sensitive about it. I just think it looks crap. I call it as I see it. Most things suck.

>> No.6985164

Says the guy going on unrelated rants about hatching...
>I call it as I see it. Most things suck
I hope you find something worth living for one day

>> No.6985165

great, now I'm self conscious! :P
I like to hatch, my inspo for hatching is moebius, terada, serpieri and yoshida

>> No.6985171


>> No.6985172

>western comics
>only posting Jorge gimenez
Based anon his art is the only one that's good rn

>> No.6985174

Drawing is for children too fat retard

>> No.6985177

Sheesh you're being a turbofag right now. I was responding to the anon's question in earnest. Was that you or something? Did I get samefagged at some point?
Anyway, demanding high standards out of art I make and consume is "worth living for"

>> No.6985178

Anon don't listen to him. You wanna show the form with hatching? Good, do what you love. We're all here to do that. Some retard's tastes should not determine your own

>> No.6985179

>you're an retard with shit taste
I mean I can live with that, he's being the worst pissy little bitch about it though

>> No.6985185

>he's being the worst pissy little bitch about it though
different anons:

>> No.6985249

Japan too has horrifying crippling flaws like horrendus writing. I mean yeah anglo cartoons and comics have shit writing, but anime is hit and miss when it comes to it too. Look at the finale of Attack on Titan, it was so shitty it ruined everything about the franchise. And the creator of Attack on Titan said he was inspired by the final season of Game of Thrones. Goes to show what shit for brain hacks they got in Japan.

>> No.6985254

japan has a much larger volume of content
so making sweeping statements like that is reductive.
not everything is made for you nor should it be. but in he west everything tries to be made for everyone so is made for no one

>> No.6985296

Lack of diversity.
For example, when you mention "a MC who shoot fire"
>Japanese Diversity:
Lina, Recca, Natsu, Yaiba,...
>Western diversity:
Johny Storm and his nigger version

>> No.6985306

I wonder what it must feel like to read complaints like this about your work. Somebody dismissing your work as thoughtless and uncreative because you... used lines to convey value.
You picked the silliest hill to die on, dude.

>> No.6985372

recommend me a good american non capeshit comic I can read in one sitting

>> No.6985548

Hard Boiled by Frank Miller and Geoff Darrow

>> No.6985559

>stop criticizing things! >:(
He'll be fine

>> No.6985573
File: 109 KB, 736x736, 31234213.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I personally hate comics because there is almost no exaggerations in the faces or anatomy. Everytthing is always stiff and its just not fun to read.

>> No.6985589

I like fun things, american comics tend to be edgy, boring and lazy. Also the entry barrier, I love the year one but I won't watch the n iterations of the same crappy story.

also the drawings don't follow the KISS principle so they look like shit most of the time.

the sweet spot is between french, Belgian and japanese comics.

>> No.6985591

Capeshit art is for the most part ugly, with ugly stern faced women and dudes in spandex. Even hen it is not ugly, it fails to convey expression and movement, again stern faces and stiff reference poses. Also the coloring in comics is dreadful 90% of the time, it is eituer soulless dihital painting or busy schizo colours.

I think we are i the last generation of people who actually buy capeshit, in 30 to 40 years when the whales die of heart attacks the capeshit industry will totally collapse, if I had to guess the entire industry is sustained by 2-5k collectors and scalpers that buy absolutely everything released no matter how expensive, once these people are gone, it is over

Manga IS just better

>> No.6985598
File: 87 KB, 602x461, main-qimg-893e24d7ae23bf45c258ae604c890f7e-lq.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Can someone put in words why i find the dragon ballone appealing while I find pic elated ugly? They are basically the same thing

>> No.6985602

The composition just doesn't covey movement very well and the colors and hideously pasted over

>> No.6985603

>the writing is the main problem.
The shit from Artist to writers being the main focus of western comics is what unironically killed it

>> No.6985606

western comics are good, capeslop isn’t.

>> No.6985608

I really hate that they use 9 panels, could've easily been two pages of 4/5 and would've allowed it have more impact

>> No.6985612

uncanny valley, those faces are just horrible. If you see an old man irl life making those faces would be seen as cringe.

>> No.6985614

To be fair, Watchmen was made so every page would be 9 pannels and only break it in big scenes, there are alot of videos about it

>> No.6985616

over polished, under designed and the expressions are straight up bad. a classic example of how moar detail does not equal better

>> No.6985618

>Bad colors
>Western comics are slaves to anatomy so they always avoid stretch frames despite it being what it gives moments like these impact
>overly detailed face cause the reader to focus on mistakes of the drawing rather than inately have their subconscious fill in the blanks
>Including batmans reaction in the back rather than have it be its own panel, robbing the focus of the moment
Just a few off the top of my head

>> No.6985622

that doesn't makes it better, it just shows the team's horrible taste.

>> No.6985624

>Watchmen was made so every page would be 9 pannels
why tf would they do that

>> No.6985625
File: 3.19 MB, 2354x3056, blacksad17.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

There's some great western comics both in art and story, unfortunately those rarely get attention

>> No.6985645
File: 481 KB, 1536x1229, Watchmen-05-14-15-1536x1229.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Stylistic choice to convey the feeling of an early era of capeshit comics that had simple grid choices and it makes so that every Watchmen volume is a mirror of itself

You can read about it here

>> No.6985685

why do I find city hunter more appealing than this?

>> No.6985740
File: 163 KB, 611x887, Figure+1_+Crowd+Scene.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>Me, when I never read comics

>> No.6985746

Exceptions dont make it wrong

>> No.6985755

I can cite 100 "exceptions". Your statement is based solely on your ignorance about comics, which is also what leads you to enjoy rushed weeb shit.

>> No.6985767

>I can cite 100 "exceptions"
Well, do it

>> No.6985769

>Well, do it
Save this worthless thread - we need to spread the knowledge around, and fight hackery
This >>6985740 looks incredible

>> No.6985783
File: 123 KB, 602x461, 327EA8EF-515A-46B3-A3D7-AAB00F826E34.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Stylish and gestural. Only 2 clean and evenly distributed values. Tidy shapes. Reads easily like a breeze. Very little in the frame to distract you from the moment of impact itself. If there's anything distracting, it's all the lines on piccolos body crossing across his torso without breaking up. If I had to change anything I'd sparingly erase the very middle section of each torso line here and there, kind of breaking each line up into a dotted line so to speak, mostly clean white in the middle and being solid again towards the edges of the form where they meet the body outline.
Horrendous value distribution. Breaks attention and hinders your absorption of the moment. Stiff. Worried about being anatomically accurate so gesture cannot be pushed as hard as the dbz pic. Muddled shapes from too many shape-breaking lines creating busyness. Camera angle should be up closer to the area of impact, the further "distance" zoomed out is more emotionally detached than the dbz pic. Kind of ugly expressions, they seem to convey some percentage of confusion rather than anger or shock. Superman looks kind of like he's seen something really nasty, joker is unreadable. A miserable little deflated speech bubble instead of high octane impact sfx. Colors. Just bad. They mess up the values. Superman and jokers bodies are the same general value, his arm gets lost in there and it's not instantly clear what's happening with it. Obvious sore thumb Batman in solid black in the background, drawing the eyes away from the impact with his contrast. 4 "blocks" of value are harder to work with than 2. Color choices themselves are not harmonious, warm colors appear closer to us while cool colors recede. Saturation draws the eye. But Superman's big red saturated cape completely pulls you away from the red bloody hand.
Remember to always think in terms of composition, it is the lifeblood of your work.

>> No.6985788

My problem with them is that they are cringe and are passing it of as realistic with the artstyle. Meanwhile manga is also cringe (not always) but with cute and silly faces, which is more fitting. Just more appealing overall.

Also it's percieved that western comic are all about the same thing.

>> No.6985805
File: 107 KB, 600x790, 1606160428404BJCNGT8pA.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

God, this looks like stinky swamp ass. What's it going to take for capefags to understand "realism" was never the goal? You're drawing a cartoon abstraction of reality! It's like they got this poisonous idea in their head long ago, "detailed anatomy is why people buy our comics," and can't take the blinders off to see the bigger picture. This would have been instantly improved 300% by thinking about the shadow shapes and value hierarchy. Batman is so fucking easy to treat graphically, even some of the stronger cape artists have figured it out, and they still fuck it up THIS bad on the regular.
I guess the real problem is that these "IPs" are long in the tooth, there's no passion in it, the original guys have moved on, so just outsource it to some slave laborer with no love for it

>> No.6985812

Breccia, Miller, José Muñoz, Ashley Wood, Bill Sienkiewicz, Anke Feuchtenberger, Paul Pope, late Giovanni Ticci... All part of very different traditions of expressive, fundamentals bending comic book art.

>> No.6985816

Why the fuck so many of you guys equate western comics with "big publishing houses american superhero comics"? You're not forced to like comics, but if you're gonna talk shit about it, at least get to know it so you don't sound so stupid doing so.

>> No.6985820

Thats not 100, can you count?

>> No.6985822

You're illiterate so we're at odds

>> No.6985823

American artists think having correct anatomy at all times is the key to being seen as a good artist

>> No.6985825
File: 2.63 MB, 2690x1570, 1683486044786985.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I feel like a lot of western comic artists (particularly American) are more interested in making pretty illustrations with resale value instead of a comprehensible story.

>> No.6985827

What is the biggest cancer in the american comic industry, capeshit or fuckers like Crumb and Dave Cooper that steered all indie comics into being purposeefully ugly as shit boring self bibliographic garbage?

>> No.6985830

Yeah, I guess Frank Miller, Robert Crumb, Bernie Wrightson and Todd McFarlane are french?

>> No.6985839

Dont ever mention Crumb when citing good artists, piss off, his shit is only liked by fart sniffing snobs who feel superior by pretending this shit has some value literally no one actually likes his garbage

>> No.6985846
File: 1.36 MB, 1956x3045, hncnhld8aoa61.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Gotta love some bland, inexpressive, stiff, anatomically correct comic book art

>> No.6985848

You niggers are so stupid. This shit the most retarded buzzword sandwich I've ever read. Pyw

>> No.6985853

Capeshit. Those designs are dumb and don't resonate in the slightest. Am I supposed to be looking at some profound emotional moment while they're dressed in some latex suit, all in a photo/semirealistic art style?

>> No.6985856

>tfw you can't enjoy anything without over-the-top acting

>> No.6985865

It's amazing the absolute lack of self-awareness needed to consume and enjoy only media literally made for children and think there's any kind of merit in that.

>> No.6985866
File: 1.38 MB, 1640x1200, shigurui.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Dunno, but I'm reading Shigurui and this shit is so fucking bomb.

>> No.6985870

I mean superhero comics as well, btw

>> No.6985879

>detailed anatomy is why people buy our comics
In a way they're right. The "problem" for us is the busy art making it harder to read than a manga. But for others that's precisely why they like it. They aren't interested in the reading experience they're interested in the illustrative experience. Those people want an art book with continuity. People like me want a regular book that uses art in place of words. The former is partial to detailed comics, the latter prefers gestural emotive manga. Still, thats no excuse for the poor art in comics. I'm mostly baffled by how prevalent the simple compositional problems are. Most them are caused by addition of color. Because you have to account for saturation and warm/cool distribution on top of values. And values aren't always immediately apparent until you convert to b&w.
But then your pic is an example of b&w, which demonstrates an entirely different problem. Emotional impact. It's a yin/yang distribution of value there. And on a right leaning diagonal no less. Very dramatic choices for such a tranquil scene. Diagonals create unrest. So you've got yin/yang that imply a dichotomy in the scene, and a diagonal implying uneasiness when there isn't any. Maybe you could infer the yin/yang is Batman being a dark character in a bright world? Its unclear. These are an entirely NEW layer of compositional knowledge to keep in mind. Maybe the hardest one, because they're a bit esoteric and flexible. Manga artists aren't necessarily all masters who know all this. But because they remove the element of color from their work they have it 100x easier. And it's much easier for a viewer to enjoy a simpler drawing because it's easy to make simple things compositionally "good." Not only that but it's easier to read simple compositions, circling back around to how people who prefer the act of reading over the act of viewing art being partial to manga over comics.

>> No.6985881

The door is that way boomer

>> No.6985882

>no argument

>> No.6985883
File: 74 KB, 418x600, Yokohama.Kaidashi.Kikou.600.434281.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Dumb post, that post is referencing action scenes, in which capeshit does have stiff poses.
You can enjoy things without action, but ironically, you will have an easier time finding such things in manga, because the only thing that barely sells in american comics is capeshit, it is a monoculture
Can you imagine this pade drawn by an american capeshitter? She would have a blocky stern face, manjaw, blocky body showing all the muscle placements, the environment would be filled with garbage, and so on

>> No.6985887
File: 630 KB, 1000x1341, P4---web_1000.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Thankfully european comics are still a thing

>> No.6985889

I'm a zoomer retard

>> No.6985892

I've always preferred this cartoonish almost web comic like art in comics. Comic strips, Donald Duck comics, even the earliest Superman comics are all just pleasant to read compared to the gritty blocky angular solid black stuff in capes

>> No.6985894

There is none. You idiots like doing this everytime.
>ehhh westoids are obsessed with Realism
1 minute later
When they stylise you go
>Muddled shapes from too many shape-breaking lines creating busyness.
When they push facial expressions you get all confused when it's CLEARLY anger.

No fuck you idiot sama I won't debate a retard who has already made up their mind

>> No.6985897

They're used to being spoonfed by japs

>> No.6985900

I'm art snob very much interested in the visual experience, and homoerotic muscle men in neon tights with bulging, exquisitely detailed pectoral insertions is anything but the "visual experience." I want to see something new, visually striking, bold. If anyone is attracted to detailed anatomy, it's mostly likely not artfags, it's dudebros who think it looks wicked cool.
To be honest, I think you're over-intellectualizing in the second half there. It's just a stylized, dark, moody picture of Batman brooding in rain - he's a fellow who broods a lot - pretty obvious what Harren was going for and I think he succeeds.

>> No.6985902

Stop being a narrow-sighted dunce and complaining that everything you see is the same. You read one Justice League comic then live the rest of your life pretending the vast number of comics out there do not exist. Whatever dude yeah sure that's what the western comic artist would do.

>> No.6985903

Sopt being retarded, the dragon ball one has obviously less realistic values but they portray the shapes better and more clearly
It is the difference between copying a reference or using it to create an appealing peace of art

>> No.6985904

I don’t even know where to start with capeshit. It’s as this guy said >>6984313 manga you can find at the local library and they’re all labeled from volume 1 to volume 35 where as a batman comic ????

It doesn’t help when there weren’t really that many superhero cartoons on TV back in the 2000s. Instead the airtime was filled with low budget garbage. Too little too late when stuff like Young Justice came out.

>> No.6985906

I didnt say western you retard, I said AMERICAN then immeiately after I posted a page of a british comic, fuck off fag

>> No.6985907

Retard-sama you and your ilk are precisely why comics refuse to learn from the success of others and why that will be your demise. Stew in it if you want.

>> No.6985913
File: 536 KB, 1248x1920, Batman (2016-) - #138 - 18.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I'll enjoy my art in peace while you retards seethe and complain about that one random terrible comic panel

>> No.6985914

>I think you're over-intellectualizing in the second half there
It's basic compositional analysis I've heard in every college art class I've been in. It's also similar to things I read in the early lessons of my manga making course I took in japanes

>> No.6985918
File: 1.96 MB, 2037x3056, 1687981088699312.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>> No.6985919

I've never been a fan of the muh sinister diagonal, muh triangle theory of composition, is all. I'm more in favor of a holistic, shape-based approach that accounts for the self-evident emotional intent. Or less pretentiously, make your panels look like a movie shot.

>> No.6985920

I wish AMERICAN comics werent just capeshit and Crumb-esque shit, like something like Dungeon Meshi or Magu-chan could never be made in america

>> No.6985921

You are stupid. Manga and superhero comics are published differently. Superhero comics follow the former european tradition of publishing serialized stories in cheap disposeable magazines for readers to follow the story only to publish the whole thing after 4-6 issues in comic albums. You most likely won't find numbered issues in a library, but you will find the albums.

>> No.6985923

>If anyone is attracted to detailed anatomy, it's mostly likely not artfags, it's dudebros who think it looks wicked cool.
So many famous classical and neoclassical artists weeping in the afterlife rn after being called out for admiring the human form

>> No.6985925
File: 106 KB, 960x720, 1686328761163829.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Ah. So you didn't get it. Good to know.

>> No.6985927

I’m just supposed to know this if I was a kid = I’m stupid. That’s why manga won.

>> No.6985929

Hey! You can't show that beautiful page here! Can't you see we're having strawman arguments about an entire industry?

>> No.6985931

In which of those two categories would you classify swamp thing, hellblazer, sin city, hellboy, shaolin cowboy, 100 bullets?

>> No.6985933

I mean, Bouguereau and his ilk were kinda cringe, yes. Highly skilled, made some pretty paintings, sure, but the obsession with detailed, correct anatomy after the invention of the photograph was not the right move from an artistic standpoint. The older guys from centuries before generally had more going on in their work, higher ideals, than just "muh loli foot anatomy" or "muh cherubs so realistically chubby you can almost pinch their cheeks." There's my hot take of the day.

>> No.6985936

Capeshit, but I like some of these, my point is, there isnt a comic about cooking or about playing ping pong you know, everything is action centered or uuuh muh dick muuuh sex is digusting but uuuh i like it

>> No.6985941

I didn't post it because I think it looks good...

>> No.6985942

To each his own, but I'm a believer in the inherent emotional significance of line and shape. The bouba/kiki effect, if you need a more solid example.
>Its discovery dates back to the 1920s, when psychologists documented experimental participants as connecting nonsense words to shapes in consistent ways. There is a strong general tendency towards the effect worldwide; it has been robustly confirmed across a majority of cultures and languages in which it has been researched
It's important in my view for an artist to understand these effects and many other effects that appear to exist but haven't been verified yet like "sinister diagonals." Which appear to be universal across human nature. Art is communication etc etc

>> No.6985950

Nta but I couldn't tell wtf was happening in it kek

>> No.6985956

They're running from the lower floor of a building up a flight of stairs to a higher floor. The problem with you people is you think being spoon-fed is fun

>> No.6985960

Anon this is like giving me a novel written in code and then giving me the key to the code and saying "decipher it, you just think being spoon fed is fun"

>> No.6985961

Do you think sculptures of people are pointless? I mean the people do exist

>> No.6985962

You were struggling. Someone had to hold your hand

>> No.6985963

Colors. I fucking hate color. Even if it's done well, it's a bunch of extra visual information that makes it harder to take the comic and story in. And it's never done well. It's always a neon dumpster fire that's just unpleasant to look at.
And it's not like japs can do it any better, but 99% of a manga's pages are monochrome so it's fine.

>> No.6985965

And how will this help us sell more comic books?

>> No.6985969

lmao this mf could never read Ulysses

>> No.6985971

Most sculptures are pretty stylized and "interpreted," notably classical sculptures. You could argue neoclassicists stylized too, and they did in a sense, I just think too often they let anatomy get in the way of the picture. Anatomy is a tool, not the goal.
Same with cape comics...it's not really realistic, but I'd call its relationship to anatomy a flavor of "obsessive."

>> No.6985975

I also need help understanding, if you could, are we supposed to be mad that our comics don't sell? Or are we supposed to feel superior because everyone is too dumb to decipher our shit? Still trying to figure it out

>> No.6985979

>NOOO you HAVE to cater to the stupid tiktok generation by writing out stories that are EASY to understand and NEVER challenge the artform
zoomer retard

>> No.6985981

So we don't care that they don't sell then? Sorry just confused

>> No.6985985

Pretty accurate take.

>> No.6985990

It's fascinating how this gibberish page composition appeals to anyone

>> No.6985999

Of course not you dumb motherfucker, I'm not a Marvel executive from the 90s to give a fuck about how much comics sell. Do you think Thomas Pynchon gave a fuck about how many books he would sell when he used to write them? This retarded mentality is what killed superhero comics, and the reson why they cannot make anything new in the first place. Btw, most people are so retarded that something selling well is not a sign of quality, but may as well be a sign of the opposite. The highest-grossing movie of all times is Avatar. This shit wouldn't make a list of top 500 movies.

>> No.6986003
File: 148 KB, 550x806, detail.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

> This garbage sold 8 million copies

>> No.6986011

>action laid out with a flow so simple an 8 year old would understand instantly
>average /ic/ aspiring artist:
>I can't read this

Give up now

>> No.6986013

Interesting. Interesting. Now show us the current numbers

>> No.6986015

Oh alright sorry I just figured since half of /co/ is constantly complaining that comics aren't selling/are dying I thought we were mad that they don't sell. You should let them know we shouldn't be mad

>> No.6986020

It's s unappealing. I call out bad shit when I see it.

>> No.6986025

Why are weebs so functionally illiterate? I didn't mean that comics sell, just that this was trash and sold a lot, meaning commercial success is not a parameter for the quality of something.

>> No.6986038
File: 310 KB, 1230x1568, sergiotoppi3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

The comic book industry cannot recover until marvel and dc die, the stranglehold and antiquated business practices they hold make it impossible for anything of quality to rise. Imagine if Shonen Jump decided from here on out that they were no longer interested in curating new ips and only hired artists to write and draw the latest issue of One Piece, Fist of the North Star or Dragon ball? Eventually after 20-30 years of that you'd end up in the same place where the american market it. Stagnation leads to death

>> No.6986045
File: 85 KB, 663x126, A true legend of game design..png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

it's not the art, it's the stories
smelly leftists spreading filth is ruining culture

>> No.6986484
File: 260 KB, 900x900, cartoonist kayfabe title.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>is like jazz. Only hyper-enthusiasts and nostalgics care anymore.
& that's fine. jazz is great & hyper-enthusiasts can be enough to support a niche industry (see vinyl). The problem is when the product is shit, which I agree most contemporary capeshit is.
>legacy boomer shit
This is the same argument woke-brained creators use to ruin American comics. Reality is having an older audience isn't bad, they have the expendable income to spend on hobbies.
>superheroes don't resonate with younger generations in the way manga did.
True, manga's attraction is in its diversity (in genres, that is). American comics once had this before capeshit became its defining genre.
Anyway, surprised we're still having this debate in the year of our lord 2023. I've been Cartoonist Kayfabe-pilled lately, I like comics as long as they're good, and find less mainstream & older stuff in comics & manga is where the lifeblood is. Most artists outgrow this debate once they leave their fanboy/weeb training wheels behind.

>> No.6987088

>you don't like western comics because you think japanese art is superior
>you don't like western comics because you think japanese story telling is superior
Nah. I read very few western comics but most of them simply do not appeal to me. There are genres and approaches to storytelling in manga that appeal to me so that's why I love them. I don't think western comics are bad, I just think they are not for me.

>> No.6987236
File: 167 KB, 736x1151, f0f44f3e1d6a1bc4205afa9c73505ac0--worgen-ludo.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Western comics really differ from artist to artist. Japan has more of a uniform idea/pattern of how comics are made. They've been doing it so much and share so much knowledge with each other, that it has become a very dined formula, with really only like a handful of dudes breaking the mold. This really makes it enjoyable and easy to read manga.
Here in the west its wayyyyyyy harder to find someone to teach you the ropes, and most comic artists are dicks that don't want to share their ideas because they don't want competition. I remeber seeing like a roundtable with all the top DC artists at the time, and Greg Capullo didn't want to share on how he does paneling because he said something like "if I shared all my secrets I'd be out of a job". Anyway, yea they study of comics is not nearly as widely accepted here as it is in Japan, so most comic artists are really jsut "winging it" where manga artists KNOW what will work.
Also man do I hate Jorge Jimenez' style. Ludo Lullabi, David Mazzuchelli, and Olivier Copiel, blow him out of the water. pic rel is Ludo

>> No.6987239
File: 259 KB, 830x1240, DD227-10-14.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

and here's David Mazzuchelli. This dude is godlike, so underrated

>> No.6987255

>if I shared all my secrets I'd be out of a job
Kek that's one way to admit you suck.
Your pic has good rendering and proportion style, but this page blatantly breaks the 180 rule. Maybe the guy was going for something different but it's jarring to read hose bottom panels
Crazy how being black and white makes comics so much cleaner to read

>> No.6987328
File: 1.60 MB, 2048x1600, 0195d15afd44af8196fdafdc91432cce95c7846615.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Nice art you have there, would be a shame if something were to happen to it before it made it to the printer.

>> No.6987354

the real question is
why does this look aesthetically better than capeshit

>> No.6987381

>tranime buzzword again
The foundation of internet culture was laid by anime fans, in the 2000s and early 2010s liking anime and talking about anime was one of the normal, expected things to do.
Almost all content creators were anime fans of some sort, the internet grew and slowly drifted into mainstream entertainment, replacing television and now it's the main source of entertainment for most people.
The new generation grows up on internet content exclusively, liking anime is popular on the internet, more people were exposed to it, combine this with the slow creep of Anime into the mainstream, general western entertainment going down the toilet since somewhere in the 2010s plus the new boom of hyper popular shonen manga and you have the situation we're in now.

>> No.6987412
File: 338 KB, 552x883, 1702079080426856.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]


>> No.6987419

love the troonmaxxed design

>> No.6987421

>combine this with the slow creep of Anime into the mainstream,
anime has been mainstream since the 90s

>> No.6987425

>Western comics really differ from artist to artist. Japan has more of a uniform idea/pattern of how comics are mad
How to out yourself as just as shonen reader. Manga is far from uniform

>> No.6987529

>muted colors for harmony
>no solid black blob shapes
>anatomical moderation
It also helps that it's not cluttered in tiny speech bubbles

>> No.6987568

this is actually amazing and macfarlane was one of the better capeshit artists

>> No.6987670

>complains about american layouts
>posts that
lmao average enlightened european comic enjoyer

>> No.6987702

Your talking to inbred zoomers that have only consumed the most surface level stuff and only know about flavor of the month garbage. You're going to run into goofy opinions like this on /ic/ all the time considering the demographic. Don't take what you read here to seriously because your most likely speaking to an underaged retard that aspires to be "off model fanart of girl against white background" twitter artist or just a frothing at the mouth shitposter that skulks this board 14 hours a day.

>> No.6988342

Based Toppi poster

>> No.6989889
File: 606 KB, 1349x2048, Superman Punch - Jorge Jimenez.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Your point would have more weight if you didn't use Jorge Jimenez, an artist whose style is heavily influenced by anime. He's among the best the West has to offer in current year, and he's copying weebshit just like everyone else is.

>> No.6989895

Anyone with half of brain would end up hating the series that constantly rebooted, restarted and raped into oblivion for extra profit.
Where the fuck you even start reading the goddamn thing?

>> No.6989921
File: 169 KB, 1004x1400, 59bbcc7d-3216-42e5-9b25-884457135ac9.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>True, manga's attraction is in its diversity (in genres, that is). American comics once had this before capeshit became its defining genre.
I was nodding along when I first read this, but I wonder if any of it is even true, and I think it might just be backwards.

Burger comics have always had variety in what runs on the newspaper comic side, and outside of those there's an absolutely bonkers range of not just genre, but art and storytelling style. Which is a bit of a problem because you don't know what you're getting into when you start reading a random western comic. The advantage manga has, and the reason capeshit stands out in the west, is the brand experience where you know roughly what's in store for you and you know where to go to get more of the same.
It doesn't matter if I'm reading a 50 year old shoujo ballet manga or a present day seinen battle manga, there's still a strong family resemblence and a similar sort of logic and structure. Meanwhile if you read something like witzend, one page gives you zero clue about what you'll find on the next.

>> No.6989928

This artist really put a lot of love into this troon's design huh, almost as if he enjoyed drawing it...

>> No.6989929


>> No.6989937

>and outside of those there's an absolutely bonkers range of not just genre, but art and storytelling style.
Is there, really, compared to manga and European comics? There is variety, no doubt, but if you think about it its harder to find. A lot of manga is samey but there is also a LOT of manga. So much so there's something for everyone, no matter how niche or weird.

>> No.6989980

The variety is there, but it should probably count for less given they can never be long-running serializations. So it's both harder to find, and even when you do it's just a handful of chapters and never "This manga nobody has heard of ran for a bit in the failed spinoff of a backup anthology of a second string publisher. It ran for 16 volumes and has an OVA."

>> No.6989988

>Why does /ic/ hate CAPESHIT comics so much?
also, the problem is that the stories are trash.

>> No.6989997

Manga has a mostly uniform approach, varying between "demographics", with a few exceptions. Like shojo mangas use fewer closed panels and more overlaps, long vertical panels. Shonen uses heavy lines to render speed and impact, with more simplified squared off layouts. All manga universally uses a narrow gutter vs wide gutter to direct where you're meant to read. Say you have 4 equally sized panels evenly placed. A narrow vertical gutter between them and a wide horizontal gutter implies you read the top two horizontally first, then the bottom two horizontally second. Take the same panel situation, but now with a wide vertical gutter and a narrow horizontal gutter. Now they're meant to be read from top right->bottom right, to top left->bottom left. These subtle structural similarities give all manga a certain uniformity that you notice.
>but anon what about-
There are exceptions. But this is what all basic japanese manga books and online guides on jap sites teach.
Obviously japan is a homogenous culture too. So your type of storytelling, and emotional beats, and twists, are going to usually follow a pretty uniform method too.
Western comics have crazy amounts of methodical variation. From actual comic making methods to story telling methods. Always a mixed bag you'll never be sure what you'll get. So western stuff has vast variety of approach, little variety of topics/ideas. Eastern stuff has a vast variety of topics/ideas, little variety of approach.

>> No.6990298

Capeshit is trash, and hardly any French comics are available in English.

>> No.6990382

decent capeshit

>> No.6990787

>/ic/ loves western comics though
>Never heard anyone talk shit about Corto Maltese, Moebius
>Same goes for the Japanese, they love franco belgian stuff and people from France and Belgium love manga. Nobody is competing with USA they started running 50 years earlier and USA is still doing warmup laps

If people say they don't like "western" they usually mean american stuff.
it's as if they don't even know about European comics, kind of telling

>> No.6990963

What is the readership of these guys? Are they making stuff still? Or is this a case of picking the best of the best from history and comparing it to ongoing contemporary stuff?

>> No.6990981

Shouldn't the other 2 be angry too

>> No.6991007

*laughs in bande dessinée*

>> No.6991070

Lmao this is unbelievable. If you're this ignorant in a subject, please refrain from commenting on it.

>> No.6991078
File: 514 KB, 755x591, Broly with mug.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Bruh, I can pick some quality manga made between 2013 to 2023 by fresh new talent that are as good as classics produced in earlier eras, but whenever we talk about good western comics, everyone just brings up the same few old creators (a lot of whom are either retired or straight up dead). Rarely do I see a name of somebody who debuted within the last decade or even past two decades unless they're a really good artist like the guy in OP.

And the shit's an even worse issue with cape comics specifically. I ask a friend who reads superhero stuff a lot: "Hey, what're the best books you've read recently?" He gives me names of guys who have been writing/drawing comics since the 90s. I ask about newer writers and he says that most of them are garbage and I shouldn't bother with stuff not written by veterans. It's the polar opposite dynamic of the manga industry. Like, where are all the new young talented niggas in Western comics at? How is an industry supposed to survive without new fresh talent coming in to fill up the ranks?

>> No.6991086

>Japan has more of a uniform idea/pattern of how comics are made.

The sheer irony considering Ameican comics were ride and die for that grid format and still falls back into it.

>> No.6991099

If you don't enjoy drawing.
Why draw at all?

>> No.6991151

>The problem with you people is you think being spoon-fed is fun
not that anon but
Holy cope, a comic should be easily readable, the fact that you consider that spoon feeding tells me you're a beg

>> No.6991158

>How is an industry supposed to survive without new fresh talent coming in to fill up the ranks?
Blame that on the nepotistic nature of the american comic book business. Its entirely gatekept by over the hill old dudes and talentless women, they only hire friends regardless of talent level

>> No.6991220

Peak gen z weeb tik tok mentality

>> No.6991237
File: 35 KB, 400x387, 1681407205735253.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I looked up "Graphic Novel Market Share" it was something like:
>Manga 43%
>Super Hero Comics 16%
>Author (I guess it's creator owned and or self-publish) 15%
>Kids (guess it's the YA and Children's Graphic Novels)
Keep in mind "Manga" is a big umbrella term and Webtoons in print, similar sized western comics some self-published works and likely Light Novels are placed in this category. When people say "American Comics are dying" what they really mean is "Marvel and DC don't sell as much as they used to."

>> No.6991241

Kids and YA graphic novels were like 27%.

>> No.6991274

Name the new fresh talent in western comics then, bro. Guys who debuted within the past decade at least.

>> No.6991387
File: 192 KB, 1080x1080, doc_shaner_191974321_814581606109600_1816096450008057783_n.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>Its entirely gatekept by over the hill old dudes and talentless women, they only hire friends regardless of talent level
Yea this is basically why comics have been so terrible outside of a small handful in the last two decades. They don't hire anyone outside of their incredibly small in-group, that's why you'll see people with absolutely no writing experience get put on a #1 book of a new character their trying to push or a new mainline book of a popular character. They also pay everyone like shit so even if you got in to the in-group, theres no incentive to stay. No one with talent and a singular working braincell would choose to work in the comics industry when the likes of DC is paying 80-100 bucks a page when their fucking offices are in new york city.

>> No.6991433
File: 1.50 MB, 3976x3056, Batman - Year One (2005) - Page 46.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I like comics more than manga mostly because it feels like there's a lot more story per page in comics. A lot of manga I've read feels tedious, like nothing is happening, more pictures than story. A single Sandman volume will take me more time to read than 3 volumes of manga and it annoys me even if the manga story is interesting. A manga volume is like an episode and a comic volume is like a season. That said I'm probably reading the wrong manga.

>> No.6991441

Nah, you are right. Manga is a much smaller size and pages tend to be between 3-4 panels when western comics are like 6-9 panels per page, US comics are a little smaller than 7x11in in size whereas Manga is 5x7in or some times smaller than that (and it's even smaller in size in Japan) so the amount of panels and big speech balloons are meant to look good at that size. For 15 bucks you get a 4 chapters long Trade PaperBack, about a 100 pages of comic (each chapter being 22 to 24 pages plus cover arts and such) full color pages that are on average 7 panels long, or you could get a 200 pages long manga volume, but each page is half the size or smaller than a TBP and with less panels per page and grayscale instead of color.

>> No.6991500
File: 24 KB, 768x512, graph.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]


>> No.6991513

literally look up
"Most sold comics in France, Belgium, Germany, etc"
Mangas are among top sellers but you also get the local contemporary releases for states
The superhero stuff is very worn out and nobody gives a shit about it anymore
You people at Marvel and DC scratching your heads why things are as they are need to consider the following
Your comics were read when there wasn't any alternative to it, while internet made more interesting, varied and better stuff accessible to people
If you want Marvel and DC to survive at this point the only way to do that is to swallow a big chunk of humble pie and learn from people who are better at comics than you, which is pretty much everyone in the world at this point
Even hilbilly arabs are hiring skilled draftsmen from europe to make comics for them rn and are ahead of USA

>> No.6991539

One is a cartoon, the other is what it's like to exaggerate realism.
It's not "bad" just not your preference. I think a drawing should allow for something to be more "off model" for added effect sometimes, but if one isn't meant to be grounded in reality to some degree like western stuff usually is, then doing that isn't going to make it better. DBZ was never realist, nothing anime ever is most of the time.

>> No.6991544

The art just doesn't speak to my aesthetic sensibilities, and honestly capeshit is boring, i don't really understand what people see in superheros.
i like beautiful things that feel homely and intimate, and not spectacle and over the top narratives trying to justify some garbage fantasy that has nothing interesting to say for the most part

>> No.6991546

all the revisionism about 4chan not being an anime site is always really funny. there used to be a loli board on the earliest version of the site.

>> No.6991552

4chan Is an anime website visited mostly by zoomers.

They will obviously prefer trannime over western art.

>> No.6991555

Remember that faggots like >>6991552 are falling for one of the more obvious psyops on this site >>6991500, I have not seen anything so inorganic since dat boi

>> No.6991557

Yeah, I can only speculate where these people are coming from or why they're doing what they're doing (I have a few theories), but they're definitely outsiders when all is said and done.

>> No.6991632

thats interesting anon

>> No.6991650

shit stories that go on forever
shit action
ive never seen good action drawn in a comic, never ever
western artists dont know how to draw action

>> No.6991852
File: 444 KB, 1182x890, ss1703523814.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Love me silence, love me scenery,

>> No.6992055

learn to draw action you faggots
theres got to be like only one or two good fight scenes in the entirety of comics, to me thats more important than all this other crap

>> No.6992439

It doesn't convey a fun flow of movement, that's the biggest problem, by far. The rest of the art is good, but like a lot of western stuff, it sadly lacks the fluid motion and is stiff.

>> No.6992454

You are the reason people like Brian Michael Bendis are able to thrive in comics. There's so much text that it takes away from the art and just gets tedious to read.

With manga there's a just more time to enjoy the story and take in what's going on. Also, because of that you can read it faster which makes it easier to read more of them imo. Then again, it just depends on the manga, because in some manga it can take time to read it, too.

>> No.6992462

i believe that was the joke anon.

>> No.6992468

that isn't a fair comparison. he didn't say "more text is good," he said "more story is good." word count does not equal story. regardless of the medium, you can have a lot of text where nothing at all is conveyed and nothing happens, or you can have leaner more effective text where the words are actually meaningful and the story is propelled. saying that "manga is better because it has less text" would be as reductive as saying "BMB is a good writer because his comics have more text."

>> No.6992484
File: 253 KB, 1456x1142, Devilman_manga.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Manga has
>A huge variety of stories in various interests and subjects
>Tons of different artstyles so you're bound to find one that speaks to you
>Easy-to-pickup, just start from Chapter 1
>FAST updates, really fast. Weekly manga at 20-22p and Monthly manga at 35-45p per release.
>Tons of new blood bringing in their work and stories
FYI: Separating "Western" from "American" here

The only America comics that sell are capeshit. The only people who buy it are oldies, not young kids. The new generation has no interest in reading the same comic from 50yrs ago about a guy in Spandex punching a baddie.
There's no new blood, writers or artists, as all they only hire from their own in-group.
Updates are slow and expensive, you either buy the floppies ($7-10/p) or the TPB once the arc is over after the run.

"Western" comics in general are more expensive to buy and update FAR more slowly. Even if the subjects are more varied this is what really kills their international popularity...

The real competitor to manga is Webtoon, which is fast-updating, convenient on the phone, colored, and has it's own built-in microtransaction payment model and ad space for revenue.

>> No.6992507

Murrika asked Japan how to sell more comics to kids.
Japan answered: Diversity!
And Murrika being the retards they are filled the capeshit comics with niggers, cripples and lesbians instead of making romance, slice of life, crime, horror and erotic comics.

>> No.6992510

The romance cultures are white. Anglos are the rape babies of morlocks that can barely be called human. And germoids are robots.

>> No.6992536

I guess I'll join in by saying that I genuinely wish that the American comics industry could unfuck itself because it's not like there aren't people in this country with interesting stories to tell. We have to erase all of the cape shit and start over.

>> No.6992710

The problem with that take is that Americans take more story as MORE WORDS. American comics, especially modern ones, are FULL of them. So full of them that it's hard to enjoy the art or the words of the story end up doing most of the heavy lifting.

Also, I would argue that the faster pace that anon wants is really indicative of American storytelling, in general, super fast paced without any time to enjoy what's going on. Actually, that sounds a lot like American life and culture such as fast food.

>> No.6992735

>based non-groomer anon has no idea what kids are into
There's a lot of elementary school targetted books using graphic novel format these days with a lot of variety, all my neices and nephews have at least some. It outsells capeshit by a pretty healthy margin as anon pointed out >>6991241

>> No.6992739

actually it's because American comics are judean.

>> No.6992769

I'm very interested in the info about Pixar giving Carlos Nine art as a model to copy as practice in their workshops. Any chance to get in touch via mail or this net with the person who atended it?

>> No.6992771

you have to really analyze your question to understand the root of what you're really asking
>why does this specific board full of mentally stunted neckbeards hate this thing
i like eastern shit more but there's a lot of good western shit, maybe you're just a baiting retard but whatever, too lazy to give more of a shit than i already have

>> No.6992776

neck yourself journo

>> No.6992782

you have to erase all of "comics" and rebrand the medium with a new name
but until the kikes are dealt with its just gonna be the same shit everytime

>> No.6992784

this is what i keep fucking telling people
comics are fucking stiff as fuck

>> No.6992819

You mean like BONE or something?

>> No.6992895

Motion lines won't stop stiff art from being stiff. You just have to literally get chuck jones with your anatomy sometimes. The motion lines get you the rest of the way there.
An uppercut punch swings on an upward rounded arc. So that arm should be curved slightly as it follows that arch, like a smear in a cartoon. Of course just the arm being warped might look weird, so you consider how the rest of the body is moving during the swing, and warp those subtler motions accordingly too. Requiring comic artists to take some courses in classical cartooning might help the situation. They're stuck in Greco-Roman statue mode.

>> No.6992913
File: 639 KB, 1080x1752, Jewish Excellence.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I thought you were bullshiting at first but you're actually fucking right

>> No.6993007

eh, there's a whole universe of kid's crap including adaptations and tie-ins to edutainmenty stuff that they can hock at school book fairs.

>> No.6993056

basically this. I just don't want to read any more stories about people running around in capes and underwear. I grew out of that when I was 14.

>> No.6993063

its so funny how worthless bats is lol. Look at this shit what does he even do? Just standing around watching sups fight the other guy

>> No.6993101

I always take these articles with a bucket of salt. Jews love claiming they invented things that they didn't, like when they claimed to have invented Shakshuka and then Arabs and Africans from around the world came together to mock the Jewish writer so hard he left the internet

>> No.6993382

Any recommendations that aren't capeshit? And that are easily and freely accessible on the internet.

>> No.6993429

>i like beautiful things that feel homely and intimate, and not spectacle and over the top narratives trying to justify some garbage fantasy that has nothing interesting to say for the most part
You must absolutely despise anime then.

>> No.6993436

i like good anime and good manga, but i mostly like visual novels. there's plenty of anime that meets this criteria though, and zero western comics that do.

>> No.6993596

hes le strategizing or some bullshit

>> No.6993597

there were a lot of non jewish contributors to the medium, they just like to prop the jewish ones to overshadow all the other goy ones so that they can pretend it was all them
they did the jewish thing too where they sat back for a bit and leeched off artists and writers while doing fucking nothing and they got sick of it and thats why image happened, wherever there is stagnation the jew is causing it

>> No.6993612
File: 44 KB, 1024x1005, Imagepipe_57.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

i realized im being too vague here but marvel and dc had these shitty rules that heavily stiffled the creativity of what artists could and couldnt do in typical jewish fashion since too many risks equals profit loss
so the giga chad todd macfarlane said fuck this and founded image comics and made spawn and introduced some actual fucking innovation to this stagnated medium
its remained mostly jewy though wich is why unfortunately its mostly still shit, the word "comic" has become synonimous with things like bad art, rushed pacing, propaganda, clunky boomer writing, bad action, etc
you pretty much have to invent a new name for your shit for anyone to take any interest in it, "webcomics" are doing pretty good, theres some publisher who does "amerimanga" kek, but i read one bunny girl comic and unsurprisingly it read like every other comic ever and the action was shit like in every other comic
and if you make a new medium jews will take over it eventually so you're forced to put the word nigger or faggot in it so as to keep these people out
the agpl plus nigger license is a good example of this done to deter anti freedom troons
>By including the word "NIGGER" in a LICENSE file that must be distributed with the software you will ensure:
>The software will not be used or hosted by western corporations that promote censorship
>The software will not be used or hosted by compromised individuals that promote censorship
>Users of the software will be immune to attacks that would result in censorship of others
a similar thing can be attempted with comics

>> No.6993627

One nigga sketched it.
Another inked it.
Another shaded and toned it.
Another coloured it.
And another put in the text.
After that many people handling one thing, you get something that feels much less personal and more like something made on an assembly line.

>> No.6993655

Mangaka also use assistants, and some of them pulling a significant amount of weight.
Like, compare CSM with Fire Punch. Both were weekly, but after Fire Punch ended one of the assistants left to publish Hell's Paradise and the quality obviously dropped massively.

There's two major factors going on here, because I've seen crazy cool stylistic comics that change hands often.
Capeshit consumers don't like significant cartooning and stylization. Not even joking, stuff that's cartooned just doesn't sell with superherofags
There's also editorial. This was discussed in a livestream I saw ages back with some DC artist and colorist, they're not allowed to change the "iconic" colors significantly, or at least there's significant pushback against it.
Thes scene they were discussing was Batman walking through a blizzard. Every side character's color was affected by the environment but Batman was colored as if he was in basic, neutral lighting not a fucking snowstorm. It's ridiculous.

>> No.6993658
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>Capeshit consumers don't like significant cartooning and stylization. Not even joking, stuff that's cartooned just doesn't sell with superherofags
those are B O O M E R S

>> No.6993690
File: 15 KB, 365x346, 98DF2389-B466-4EF2-9221-EE50E17F889C.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>they're not allowed to change the "iconic" colors
>The scene they were discussing was Batman walking through a blizzard. Every side character's color was affected by the environment but Batman was colored as if he was in basic, neutral lighting
KEK the absolute STATE of comics. Pair this with the way they draw action pages like posters so artists can resell them as prints at cons. Or how a colorist needs to "stand out" to get his next job. What a disaster

>> No.6993695
File: 828 KB, 989x1236, tumblr_afede79fca7550e8925a103359943436_c244d43e_1280.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I want to fuck Betty and Veronica

>> No.6993710

whats wrong with her dog

>> No.6993840


>> No.6993878
File: 332 KB, 901x1199, F0beHq9aIAAufbh.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

It's funny how weebs constantly call western art styles ugly and then clap for more shit like Baki and One Piece.
It truly is only okay when Japan does it.

>> No.6993950

Unfortunatelly, the burger market is full of funkopop consoomers and thus it won't be dying any time soon

>> No.6993976

The Dragon Ball pose is more dynamic, the angle, the expressions, everything is more exaggerated, in the capeshit it is a static shot.

>> No.6993986

a lot of comic art looks like shit, even if i like the style nine out of ten times the rendering is dogshit and completely ruins it, one if my favorite art styles has to be the late 80s 90s style of comic books wich imo is peak but because different people do different parts of the art and fuck it up all the time very few of it looks good and most of it ends up looking like shit
also the action is never good and everyone knows the stories are boomer tier
i think the greatest comic ever has to be spawn and thats really saying something about the industry cause that shit was made by a disgruntled marvel employee
i think having one artist do the art with some assistants sketch some irrelevant background shit yields better and more consistent results but im just some faggot weeboo so what do i know

>> No.6993991

Yes, manga uses assistants, but aside from the grunt work, it's still a single person seeing each portion of the drawing through from blank paper to finish and the mangaka supervising.
I don't know what they do now, but the old comic system was pretty fucking nutso with the penciller's gorgeous art completely covered and butchered before it makes it past the unsupervised monkeys setting up the colors at the printer.

>> No.6994012

It is
It's like that comic where the chad and a fat fuck say hello to that woman in an office
The Jap is the chad and USA (it surprises no one) is the fat fuck

>> No.6994063

>Jorge Jiménez
Anglofilth, pls

>> No.6994090

Firstly it's because westerners can't color for shit. The left side of your pic would look like dogshit if every individual rope of muscle was rendered in electric blue and yield sign yellow. And really other than that the main problem with western styles is the faces. 90% of every face I've ever seen in a comic has been busted in some way or another. Proportionally off, weird little beady eyes, excessive lines or bones, spacing between the features being unbalanced, and basically never depicting an emotion with proper intensity because westerners can't into face expressions. Probably because they study realism and don't push the features with enough exaggeration in the right places, that'd be too cartoonish I guess and we can't have that. Fix the color and the faces and maybe the hair in some cases, and western art style wouldn't look too different at all from the art in manga.
Execution of the comic itself and paneling and writing is a separate animal though.

>> No.6994111

Anglostan is straight north of Spiclandia, friend.

>> No.6994112

hes closer to nips since hes just a tracer/photobasher.

>> No.6994124
File: 68 KB, 728x410, power.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

i've never seen anything like this in western comics. i dont read a lot, but compare the power between punches.
like you could do so much more with superman's hit, a shockwave on the top with some lex luthor colored speedlines, the buildings could start falling like dominoes or at least incline, at least the first two would be blown to bits.

>> No.6994165

Because it lacks any sense of speed or dynamism, to which I'd say the cause of that is the paneling; it's laid out very rigidly, gives each panel about the same level of importance by having them about the same size and level of detail.

If this were manga, the panels would be more playful for a lack of a better word. They would varying in size and shape with the panels, and include things like speedlines to better convey the sequence.

>> No.6994167

the hit and building impacts aren't bad in and of themselves. it's just fucking weird because the page on a page with a giant building shattering impact you haveafk batman drawn the same size as the punch, and grimacing closeups get lips bigger than the shockwave.

>> No.6994172

there are boomer faggots that are extremely autistic about how panelling should be done because of in house rules from the 1950s

>> No.6994184

comics+nigger when

>> No.6994194
File: 954 KB, 1354x2048, 1703009206646706.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

begliner coming through

>> No.6994200

Yeah, typical American comics are incredibly stiff and seem to outright avoid showing the coolest shit.

>> No.6994207

notice how theres no motion lines on superman throwing that punch, it makes the scene look frozen in time and not as impactful, for all i know the fucker is just standing there not moving at all

>> No.6994209

There are those colored motion strips of his cape, symbol and belt.

>> No.6994210

The best art is in capeshit yet the best stories have the shittiest cartoon art.

>> No.6994218

FPBP. I love western comic art, especially from the 90s and early 2000s, but the writing is absolute dogshit and dominated by capeshit and people trying to push their political beliefs instead of just trying to make a good story.

>> No.6994220

Major improvement over the OP image anon. Both versions however just show the face of the guy who just got punched through the buildings as if the damage didn't even happen. OP image seems like it has some far-away shot of the guy getting up from the rubble but it's so vague and hard to decipher. There should have been more emphasis on him getting up before you see his face again. Him abruptly looking just fine is sequentially janky. It's like a beat is missing/cut from the action, and this cropped up version even omits the one sad little panel that kind of attempted to include it. And it could use horizontal gutters. Still much better though, by a lot.

>> No.6994231

would honestly depend on where the story is at, if he's already established as a badass that doesn't get touched by the second stringers, then you could do something like this as the real hero entering the fight and things getting serious.

>> No.6994245

Nah there's gotta be something there, as it currently is, your instinct is to assume it's a different person. There could at least be wafts of smoke or floating debris in the air around the bad guy. You could also scoot the left bottom panel and the Superman bottom panel a little more left, and add in a crop of the rubble panel between supes and the baddie. But as it is, is jarring regardless for flow

>> No.6994265

its very lackluster, motion lines are way better and also those colors are only showing one motion of him moving forward, theres no lines on his arms nor is there a little "pow" showing where the hit connected wich would end up looking much cooler

>> No.6994288

One thing I've noticed is that cape comics don't use crazy perspective/angles/foreshortening as much as an action manga would

>> No.6994306

You need to warp the anatomy to accomplish some of the camera stuff manga does. Cape comics don't do warping, it can be majorly hit or miss if you're not always practicing it. Maybe pencils guy is good at it but then ink guy has no idea how to make it look and fucks it up

>> No.6994317
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>> No.6994351

Even if you don't count Conan, Tarzan, Flash Gordon, The Phantom or even Popeye as superheroes. The Shadow and Fantomas are 100% proto-Batmans and not created by jews.

>> No.6994360

The romance cultures are the real west. The eternal anglo is just the parasite that leeches off their efforts.

>> No.6994365

I hope you posted this as an example of how to emphasize and exaggerate a character's strength after taking the same damage as the Superman comic page
>propulsion into the rock
>rock is crumbling
>he is inside the rock
>he breaks free from the rock
An event broken into 4 significant representations, that progress through 4 panels, in a simple sequence while making it explicitly clear what happened by the end. Bad guy is unhindered by a powerful attack.
For the Superman comic it's like
>Superman punches
>guy is launched through buildings
>Superman is fine and Batman is there too
>small figure in the rubble
>Superman is serious
>bad guy is also serious
What a fucking... bizarre way to sequence a series of events, man. I just don't know. It's not as clear that bad guy is unhindered by a powerful attack.

>> No.6994407
File: 223 KB, 750x1000, flat,750x,075,f-pad,750x1000,f8f8f8.u6.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>One Piece
One Piece is a cartoon. Its characters are "ugly" in the way Elmer Fudd, Bluto, or Shaggy Rogers are - that is, not actually. Serious-business capeshittery brimming with stubbly, muscled demigod-daddies leaping around in spandex could learn a thing or two from One Piece actually. Lighten up a little, it's toons, it's trash. It simply isn't cool to draw all your heroic men with generic chadface and all your girls like 80s Pamela Anderson. It's old, it looks old and dated and ancient and antiquated and out of time.
In general, Japan has always drawn cartoons. Yes, the bodily proportions may get quite realistic, but they never stray too far from the toon ideal in the faces. Characters have big, funny, and sometimes cute reactions to things. A single good anime reaction shared on social media can get people interested in or at least aware of an anime (think of that Anya character). Japan's comic symbols - they even have a name for them, "manpu" - have been wildly successful, to the point they've influenced emoji and memes (the "needs correction" anger sign). Where's the comics equivalent??? Why are we (Americans) so fucking lame?
This is also why mashup styles like Trigger and Scott Pilgrim do well with younger audiences. Younger generations don't hate western styles, they just want something that isn't cryogenically stuck in the 40s, as if Akira and DBZ and Sailor Moon never happened.

Stop being pretentious and draw some fucking toons!

>> No.6994462

they're both western retard

>> No.6994518
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>> No.6994543
File: 30 KB, 600x600, st,small,507x507-pad,600x600,f8f8f8.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>Anglos Spaniards and Frenchies are all Roman Rape Babies
Every single human being in this planet is a Spic one way or another aren't we?

>> No.6994700

Baki looks goofy as fuck but they stand out.
Now imagine if every single shonen manga looked like Baki. You've now run into the capeshit issue.

>> No.6996152
File: 3 KB, 172x209, purefuckingevil.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

comic industry perfectly encapsulated everything wrong with western art its not wonder why all artist the hate is poured into it
i blame mostly CCA

>> No.6996165

Jesuschrist, that's so butchered!

>> No.6996936

I hate colorist I hate coloristI hate colorist I hate colorist I hate colorist

>> No.6997389

just read books at this point you clearly don't care for the medium

>> No.6999480


>> No.6999496

I had no idea what happened until I saw your edit.
(didn't try I guess, shouldn't have to..)

>> No.7000813

2000AD and Heavy Metal were good back in the day, plus an assortment of indie comics, early Mangas that made it to english speaking countries like Akira, various Shirow works. Superhero stuff has never appealed to me personally even if some of the characters were cool.

>> No.7000849
File: 8 KB, 261x193, tiresome.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

because the comics are redundant and desu, I´m sick of the hyperinflation of anime/manga-related art also. I wish people would do more original stuff like paintings in different techniques, with different motives, without any reference to Japan or Anime to begin with. Look at the posts on /ic/..It´s just basically 90% crappy anime and comic book art. Hardly anything original. It´s all so tiresome and boring.

>> No.7000859

I dont know but im fucking beyond tired of anime and manga garbage everyone is doing recently and the only things i could bring myself to read last year were 2 comics (Scott Pilgrim, Eltingville Club), discovered i had more fun reading those than the last years of forcing myself into reading the manga of the month

>> No.7000867

>I dont know but im fucking beyond tired of anime and manga garbage everyone is doing recently

>> No.7000992

Jazz is better than capeshit though

>> No.7001007

See, pixar workers and marvel workers browse /ic/ to try and understand the "secret sauce" to make their stuff not garbage and only thing they can think of doing is chasing down someone who leaks something from their gay pityparty failing studios for a lawsuit
Kys industry faggots I am glad asians and euros are ahead of you

>> No.7001033

Post your original art.

>> No.7001236

>i've never seen anything like this in western comics.
Because we care about realism. If we did that, everyone in that cross section would be dead. Everything. Meanwhile anime characters pretend they are immune to any kind of forces that clearly is destructing whole mountains.

It takes smart people out of these from actually being entaining. Is it pretentious? Idk, manchild in cartoon costumes aren't as mature to me as thinking some bald fuck that "trained hard" is as strong as gods. But the latter just comes off as more annoying since they act like it's both normal to not take it seriously but don't call out people for taking it seriously. Pick a lane. At least western comics care about something that should kill, should kill.

>> No.7001245

Be the change you want to see. Sure hope you've drew some original art.

>> No.7003344

>Why does /ic/ hate western comics so much?
You are hiding the real issue with that question. What you should ask is why aren't western comics more liked or popular. They lack appeal to the world is the issue not how they compare to the eastern equivalent.

>> No.7003356
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>> No.7003393
File: 78 KB, 1113x400, QdZl1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I hear what you're saying here, but I think this also stumbles in to another small but somewhat common annoyance with comics.

>> No.7003679

mmm mm, love that 400th teardown of the superhero trope.

>> No.7003910
File: 474 KB, 1000x1517, 022_016.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Other than dogshit writing and ugly layouts that plague most, it usually comes down to the artist and their style. Some can make really good vibrant illustrations, others look like badly traced photographs. Also not a fan when they do this kind of ugly shading with massive jet black shadows.

>> No.7004223
File: 491 KB, 723x746, chino's old husband.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>fake f/a/ns hating on fat fucks
Holy jesus christ we are really invaded by fucking normalfags and tumblr fujos.

>> No.7006687

We need to stop saying western comics when we really mean United States comics