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/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

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6920541 No.6920541 [Reply] [Original]

With all this talk about manga doing better than comics, how can I, a comic book artist, make a living drawing comics despite manga selling more?
How does one make it in a collapsing market?
Do I have to move to Japan to make manga because that's where the market is now?

>> No.6920558

What can comics learn from manga I wonder

>> No.6920562
File: 392 KB, 1667x1106, DAMMIT.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Don't be woke?
I mean I wanna be woke
Not like the cynical kinda "everyone is wrong but me" kinda woke, but rather the, minorities don't cool shit and defeating racists kinda woke.

Everyone has their own idea of what woke means that it gets me very paranoid about what I believe in and what I wanna write around.

Should I draw SJWs as evil strawmen getting killed by the Chad? Is that what people want?

And I know jack shit about drawing anime style even though everyone loves it. But I love cartoons. I wanna get better at anime which is easier said than done but I'm still gonna do it.

>> No.6920570

I think people in general are sick of politics poisoning comics, especially progressive ideology and idpol.
>minorities don't cool shit and defeating racists
lame and political
>SJWs as evil strawmen getting killed by the Chad
Also lame and political
If you want readers, do something interesting with soul that isn't political. Also no capeshit. There is a massive western market for comics, but that market just goes to manga because western comics are complete fucking trash. Even bottom barrel manga has sexy chicks and doesn't try to pander to political ideologies. You don't have to draw anime style.
If you want an easy step one, read a lot of manga (even shit ones) and think about it's good qualities

>> No.6920573

>minorities don't cool shit and defeating racists kinda woke.

As a 3rd world foreigner, this is the same you end up idealizing the character because you can't do anything that put then in bad light, or you are willing to showcase their flaws?

This is reminds me of the chinks that were crying about kung fu panda, why can't they produce such a gem even when they are the OG chinks.

People just want cool stuff easy to follow and read.

>> No.6920576
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But what if I wanna tell a political story where characters have different ideas they discuss amongst themselves which leaves you finishing the story doing some reflection?

I don't even wanna preach about my beliefs I just wanna have characters talk about shit personal to them and then have people debate amongst themselves what the characters mean.

I think you can bring up politics and not be idealistic and tell an interesting story without being a doomer about it.

I even think preaching progressive ideals can be good if you just bring up how having more different cultures can broaden your perspectives on things and how more people can be good for business and whatever.

I dunno, man. Completely omitting politics from your story isn't a bad thing, but I think it can be a good thing if you know what you're talking about.

>> No.6920581

What nobody is telling you is that the real money is in children and ya graphic novels

They're a larger share of the market than even manga

>> No.6920586

I am going to portray the minority character as not a perfect character because that's how fucking characters work. They shouldn't JUST ONLY be some political thingy, they can be flawed AF because we're all flawed AF.
It really shows how even bigots are just people with ideals that came from a personal experience. People think they are right, and that is their biggest flaw, always thinking you're right and everyone is wrong.

>> No.6920589

guarantee you're not smart enough to write a political story that has anything useful to say.

Your opinion is something you read, not something you meant.

>> No.6920590

You can do all of that, but I along with the majority of the casual comic enjoyer crowd won't read it. I want stories of people going on adventures and shit

>> No.6920596

You ever get tired of the same old adventures?
Not even saying you should enjoy politics, I'm also saying things like what about unique characters and themes?

>Your opinion is something you read, not something you meant

I think I am going to remember that

>> No.6920598
File: 943 KB, 1615x817, anon superhero redline.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

great pic op, I read your post in the 90's spiderman animated series voice

>> No.6920603

>how can I, a comic book artist, make a living drawing comics despite manga selling more?
don't draw capeshit
don't write wokeshit
draw with an appealing style

that's it.

>> No.6920604

>You ever get tired of the same old adventures?
What same old adventures??
>things like what about unique characters and themes
If it's all done through subtle storytelling it can be fine

>> No.6920605

>Not like the cynical kinda "everyone is wrong but me" kinda woke, but rather the, minorities don't cool shit and defeating racists kinda woke.
you will absolutely fail then. you're going to be making comics for people that don't read comics.

>> No.6920625

People who read comics are racist?

What is an appealing style?
What if what I think is appealing isn't appealing to you?

You know, main character who is righteous and good has to defeat evil because it's the right thing to do because it's just the right thing to do don't question it.

I wanna see stories of the characters growing and finding out WHY what they do is the right thing to do, you know? Perspectives are built from experience and to just have a status quo exist without and reason behind it is bad to me.


>> No.6920630

Nobody reads comics because most comics suck.
If your art and writing are good then you can find success. Don't cage yourself with the preconceptions of the medium you're working in or what people expect from it.

>> No.6920635

>People who read comics are racist?
>What is an appealing style?
Actual low iq moment
>You know, main character who is righteous and good has to defeat evil because it's the right thing to do
Manga isn't like this at all lmfao
You're acting like you think you're some kind of groundbreaking visionary when you're really just ignorant about what media already exists

>> No.6920637

I am noticing more preconceptions people have with a medium are based on how better it is to another thing. As in I think most ex comic fans are reading manga out of spite for comics. I like both depending on what story they are, in fact I like comics and manga more that go outside what they usually are about.

You got manga about trans issues and you got comics about isekai

>> No.6920644
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I think I suck actually, that's why I'm asking you guys questions.
I don't know what art style is considered appealing to you guys, I only know what I myself think is appealing, but what if what I think is appealing isn't appealing to you?

I know you say I should just do what I want to do as an artist, but isn't that selfish to not do what the "true fans" want?

And yeah I didn't assume manga is all like generic hero stories I just mean I don't like stories in general that don't question the status quo no matter what medium they are in.

>> No.6920651

you're too up your own ass about it, relax

>> No.6920653

>don't know what art style is considered appealing to you guys
It's not about being appealing to a specific person, it's about general appeal. Shape design, color use, etc. Compare something with high appeal like aimkid to something with negative appeal like Lainey Molnar
>I know you say I should just do what I want to do as an artist
I don't say this
>I don't like stories in general that don't question the status quo no matter what medium
You don't like... the vast majority of all stories?

>> No.6920656

I am?
I don't know how to get my head out of my ass, can you help me?

>> No.6920657
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>> No.6920660

try lube im out of here

>> No.6920661

>You don't like... the vast majority of all stories?
No... I don't

How do I study general appeal? Because it seems when people talk about general appeal it's always "just look at it, isn't this so appealing?" rather than showing exactly how it's appealing the same way an art teacher critiques art, you know?

>> No.6920665

I hear walmart and pharmacies have sex toys now, I could always go there

>> No.6920666

Stop posting in the crypto-appeal troll thread.

>> No.6920667

>No... I don't
That's sad and will greatly hinder your progress
>How do I study general appeal?
Copying and things like gesture/shapes/color like I said
>it's always "just look at it, isn't this so appealing?"
It isn't something that can be measured.
>showing exactly how it's appealing
This is reductive and doing so would hinder progress

>> No.6920672

Well shit
Do I have to pretend to like a majority of stories in order for people to like me?

As for gesture, shapes and color
Yeah gesture is important, I just think trying to study what the general audience likes is weird because aren't you just copying what works? Isn't that derivative?

Yeah general appeal can't be measured because ratings don't seem to explain anything other than it strikes a chord for some reason.

Sometimes things get popular because of things outside of of the thing

>> No.6920674

Go independent.

>> No.6920676

Damn, I saw this too late. Thanks for the warning, Satan.

>> No.6920680

Once I looked up how much comic artists get paid per page. I was shocked! To me it seemed so low. But then I looked at some modern comics--Oh my god! (I thought to myself) These fucking suck!
Now I think comic artists get paid too much, in general, and probably should brought to beg for forgiveness in a public forum.

>> No.6920681

>in order for people to like me?
You should be more worried about your art than your popularity. Get a grip. It isn't about pretending. If you can look at popular stories and be like "yeah, okay, I think I get it", then you can learn from them.
>Isn't that derivative?
Yes, it's also how human beings learn things. All media is an amalgamation of previous media combined with the artist's personal touch
>Yeah general appeal can't be measured because ratings don't seem to explain anything other than it strikes a chord for some reason.
>Sometimes things get popular because of things outside of of the thing
I don't even know what you're trying to say here

>> No.6920690

this might be the dumbest fucking thread here right now.

>> No.6920723

>How does one make it in a collapsing market?
Americans comics are dying but Webtoons are bigger than even manga nowadays so you have a choise, either you sellout and draw that garbage aimed at teen girls in a mobile format, go indie or move to Japan like some Korean artists used to do before webtoons went global.

>> No.6920735
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I don't know what I'm trying to say either.
But you are right, understanding why things get popular is a good start into understand what humans can get attached to.

I think that's why personal experience helps your story and why I can't get behind the hatred people have of self insertion.

It can work if you use your experience to enhance the story rather than some fantasy fulfillment people can't relate to

Only because of shitposters coming out to say manga is better just because trannies

I have been wanting to do my own website, I already have a site for my NSFW comic, so that seems to be the best option for me.

>> No.6920743

You need to do the youtube thing and other social media to build a following. Then you do crowd funded comic. Thats the only way if you want to do comics. Alternatively, you could work for less than minimum wage drawing trannies and gays for marvel or dc with no incentives or royalties (the royalties are tied to sales from decades ago, so you aint getting shit anymore even if you are on top books since they all sell like shit).

so you can network with comicsgate guys if want to grift that community or you can do i think indiegogo or one of them that the leftist ones use. forget exact what liens they all drew for nonsense. but getting some networking in with people is key either side you go with. cg means you wont be able to work at marvel ever again, but youll make more money if have any remote amount of talent. lot of cross promotion and get in on podcasts with evs or others to push it. like rippaverse is absolute dogshit art and story and making bank. ya boi zack never produced anything particularly great, but out earns majority of marvel creators. evs making bank. chuck dixon, etc all doing well. you dont have to be political or anything to do this if you only know it from nonsense media. its like saying someone with gamergate is a nazi - complete fabrication and myth. just literal black lists for anyone involved in cg from the people in control of marvel. youll be blocked on twitter, etc without ever speaking to people and on block chains if you go that route. youll make more money though and get to make comics. working for marvel or dc is just soul crushing and youd mak emore working at mcdonalds for less work.

>> No.6920782

Most of the retards here don't draw or produce any work, you're just gonna get echoes of /a and /co tinged in the trademark edgelord /pol-y unfucked and unwashed retard juice.
Better go figure out what you want to do elsewhere, there's only fanboy mongoloids larping as artists in here.

>> No.6920785

Don't be woke and number your comics
Like Jesus Christ it's fucking miserable trying to get into comics without someone holding your hand and telling what Batman comic is a continuation from the one you just read, because the artist just changed for the third time

>> No.6920804

>How does one make it in a collapsing market?
I believe independent and all comics outside of Marvel and DC are doing very well actually? So no, you don't need to move anywhere. If you're so desperate to work at a comic company, work at Image comics or something, rather than the two big sinking ships.

>> No.6921641
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People want authentic characters and compelling stories. It's really that simple. The American comic books injuries are entirely self induced. No one cares about the current state of Captain America if he's just going to be retconned in the next run.

"Woke" comic writers are usually lazy / bad at writing / pandering to a crowd that doesn't buy comics. These writers make literal propaganda, probably without even realizing it. Their stories give no food for though, have no overall thesis. They usually write 1 dimensional characters that have zero depth or thought put into them. This goes for the protagonists and the antagonists (they're evil becuase they're racist!!). It comes off as childish and just plain boring to read in most cases. And if it's paired with mid art good luck selling any copies.

Alan Moore wrote watchmen to be an interesting and compelling story. Rorschach was a right wing, conspiracy theorist, homophobe that could only see the world in black and white. He wasn't a traditional "good guy" but Moore still gave him virtuous qualities, he was the only character that was willing to die for their convictions.

People just want authentic stories with real stakes. People want well rounded and thought out characters instead of walking mouth pieces for the writers shitty opinions.
>thanks for coming to my TED talk

>> No.6921643

>I mean I wanna be woke
just off yourself now

>> No.6921799

Are you looking to draw and write comics, or just be an artist? You'd be surprised at how many people are looking for artists. If you have a good portfolio of examples, then it's not too hard. Just specify a reasonable page rate and work at a good pace
You can use Reddit and Facebook groups to find jobs. There's always some writer looking for an artist for their indie comic about to hit a crowdfunding site.
I'd suggest having a part time job for some stability until you're getting consistent work. Once you're good, you can work on your own side project on the side, just hire an editor or have a fresh pair or eyes look at it after

>> No.6921806

Make a cute school girl slice of life comic with cute girls in sailor uniforms, pantyshots and engaging storyline.

Go on. DO IT.

>> No.6921812

Go back to big boobs. Comics used to have big boobs but I remember when all the snarky, "WTF her spine would crack under that weight" comments/articles started around the 2010s.

>> No.6921829

People who enjoy big booba are also willing to pay for them. NSFW comics often reach their goal very fast on crowdfunding pages.
Meanwhile the snark people who demand small boobs don't even buy comics anyway so who gives a fuck about them

>> No.6921949

do lgbt webcomics

>> No.6922068
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I like that you actually provided an explanation as to what people really want in out of a story. They want stakes that won't be retconned and they don't want one sided stories.

The part that gets me is sometimes a mindless villain can be fun. Everyone wouldn't shut up about Jack Horner.

Or I could always go to sleep, because that's not being woke

I wanna tell my own stories. But I can be open to draw for other's, been doing that for years and making good money from it.

My porn comic is bisexual as fuck so that's a start

>> No.6922092

I'm not who you were referring to, but that is kind of what I've been wanting to do but I don't want to go to prison for breaking the obscenity laws. In America if you draw pictures of minors doing explicit sex stuff it's automatically considered CP, and it's vague where the line is that makes something explicit.

>> No.6922372

I think its more than just that comics are "woke"

its hard to get into and its more expensive and there are alternate version of the character that you like that is easier to get into. Mangas also have advertisements in terms of animes, where if a season finishes and people like it a lot then they can go buy the books to be ahead of the anime

wanna buy a spiderman single issue for 5 dollars that you can finish in 20 minutes or a manga volume that comes for the same price (but maybe smaller in size and without color) that has more content?

and if you really want to get spiderman content, then you can get a one month subscription to one of the livestream services that has movies with him and watch all of them. Not like they are adapting comic books (so no way to be ahead of the movies by reading the comics should you finish a movie series and want to read the rest of the story)

>> No.6922397

>I even think preaching progressive ideals can be good if you just bring up how having more different cultures can broaden your perspectives on things and how more people can be good for business and whatever.
If this is the depth of your politics please for the love of god do not put politics in your story. Literally everyone on the political spectrum has heard these points a thousand times before, probably even children.

>> No.6922534

I think the distinction I see often drawn between manga and comics is that manga is a medium. comics are almost their own genre. I don't see many stories being told within comics that aren't about some idea of a hero, even if it isn't just capeshit. it's usually action oriented for sure.

like is there a volleyball comic? or one only about some romance between two people? idk, never really seen that.

>> No.6922578

>Do I have to move to Japan to make manga because that's where the market is now?
It's so ridiculously saturated over there that Japanese artists tell aspiring artists inside Japan to look for work elsewhere, Japan is the worst place in the world for comics and animation, it's were the pay is lowest and workload highest. Westerner artists out-earn their Japanese counterparts like 5 to 1, you are way better off already doing what you are doing.

>> No.6922890

A good villain goes a long way, woke stuff just passes over this and makes someone evil because they're racist or sexist or whatever the new term is. At some level you should have people rooting for the villain or at least sympathize with them, maybe the reader doesn't fully agree with how he goes about his goals but can understand. Cause then when he comes into conflict with the protagonist there's actual stakes and it's engaging to read instead of "oh he's bad because a stand in for the majority/colonizer/patriarchy/capitalist system man".
also I don't know anyone who wants to read a comic about people sitting around discussing their ideology. maybe they're out there and it's an untapped market but I doubt this is the case.

>> No.6922900

What? Kung Fu Panda was popular in China.

>> No.6922921


>> No.6923255

>Westerner artists out-earn their Japanese counterparts like 5 to 1
Unfortunately, that comes at the cost of there simply being no real middle ground between the "mainstream" comics and the obscure indies. It's either you're trying to live off the very modest advance while you draw your book and praying you make back that advance so you still have a career or you're working for marvel getting paid $250USD a page.
At least in japan there's a publication for every skill level. You just barely have the skill to go pro-am? There's web publications that will pay you to make stuff for them -- not much, but enough to scrape by. Built your skills as a pro-am and wanna go full pro? There's plenty of niche commercial magazines to pitch to which you'll get paid an alright page rate (so long as you're not living in a mansion or hiring a team of assistants) and can make decent money from the sales themselves. And if you're really ambitious, you can try pitching to one of the big magazines and aim for world-wide recognition.
Another thing western publishers don't have that japan does: commercial porn. It sounds like a joke, but porn has a lower barrier for entry for a beginner to start their professional career in (as is widely known on the internet). In japan, you can build your skills as a professional by working AS a professional for a seinen manga publisher in one of their H mags while you might not have the writing skill to make it as a professional otherwise. You improve while you do that and you can choose to switch to making non-H stuff. No such career trajectory exists in the english speaking world. There's no real stepping stones at all, actually. You make stuff on your own for free until you're full-on pro-level, and that's it. Nobody who can't afford to not work for their living can hope to gain the skills needed to make comics in a reasonably timeframe, so the result is a lower average skill level.

>> No.6923341

If you wanna defeat a racist, put down your pencil and quit ;)

>> No.6923434

I wouldn't try to make it in the hypercompetitive Japanese manga industry, it's already difficult enough for a Japanese mangaka so it would be an absolute nightmare for a gaijin numb to the pulse of Japan. I'd make manga-style comics for Western anime/manga fans and look for things in anime/manga that don't really work here (or for you personally). One thing for example that the Western anime/manga fans have always universally hated are wimpy protagonists, like Shinji. That's an angle where you can strike by having a more masculine protagonist.
Disclaimer: Since on 4chan "Western" is constantly used as a synonym for all the leftist nonsense, I guess I should mention that you should obviously ignore what those faggots think.

>> No.6923558
File: 260 KB, 900x900, cartoonist kayfabe title.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>How does one make it in a collapsing market?
If you're serious then watch Cartoonist Kayfabe. Those are two guys who've made it in American comics. They talk about the industry and occasionally drop wisdom on how to make it (especially in their weekly live streams).
What I like about them is that they dig everything, American, manga, Euro—as long as it's good.

>> No.6923599

Good content but don't interact with their "fans" (either in the comments or the facebook group) who are completely braindead

>> No.6923640

filtered by one of the most cookie cutter positive community on the internet about comics...
you're the defective one mongoloid...