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/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

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6408265 No.6408265 [Reply] [Original]

>learned the fundamentals
>draw 3 hours minimum every day for 2 years now
>still can't visualize for shit or imagine anything in my mind's eye
>still can't invent designs or elements or create from scratch

It's over isn't it, this is the artist aspect that you either have or you don't.

I see artists 10 years younger than me invent completely new designs from imagination on stream, in well composed creative poses, with original facial expressions and lots of good looking small quirks, literally line by line with no sketch or underdrawing, with zero reference. This feels unreachable to me, I feel like I haven't made an inkling of progress towards this since I started drawing.

>> No.6408272

>>6408265
You've only been doing it for two years. These spoiled young shits were probably taking art lessons since they were single digit aged. Don't give up anon.

>> No.6408278

>>6408272
>guy on stream literally says he started drawing two years ago

>> No.6408283

>>6408265
>>6408278
He's lying, baka.

>> No.6408284
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6408284

If you really feel that something is wrong, take a closer look.
Sometimes you just let the time go by and didn't do something really consistent in those three hours. It is really common, I suffer from the same problem.

>> No.6408285

>>6408265
Yeah, I'm pretty retarded too, but I'm going to keep going.

>> No.6408289

>>6408265
Do you just do studies repeatedly without being conscious of your actions?

>> No.6408291

>>6408265
Stop being a baby and use reference.

>> No.6408292

>>6408278
Anon, when kids say this they are talking about when they started getting serious. I'm sure 99% of the time these people started drawing from a very young age, just not grinding fundies but drawing whatever they like for fun. Also most kids when they first start drawing by copying whatever media or character they already like so they do start building a visual library at a young age.

>> No.6408304

>>6408289
>>6408291
I can draw well when I'm giving it my all, I'm pretty satisfied with some of my results when I sit down and gather references, and do several layers of sketches, and liquify them into place, and do several passes of lines and colors, and come back later when some time has passed so I can notice mistakes and fix them, and have the time to polish a drawing, etc, what I can't do is pour final lines out of my sleeve in 10 minutes with no sketch and have them look anything resembling acceptable, like I haven't even begun to make any progress in that aspect ever since I started, my mind is blank when I'm drawing and all I can do is move the lines in front of me.

I can compose but I can't freestyle basically and I have no idea how to even get started or if it's something I'm even capable of.

>> No.6408306

>>6408304
Grab a sketchbook and practice doodling. Draw mindlessly for fun.

>> No.6408307

>>6408304
I can't freestyle basically and I have no idea how to even get started
Have you tried construction?

>> No.6408308

>>6408307
I meant to quote
>I can't freestyle basically and I have no idea how to even get started

>> No.6408309

>>6408265
>he fell for the fundamentals meme
you've been proko'd

>> No.6408310

>>6408306
Doodling is 1/4 of my drawing time, I draw something, look at it, go "yep it looks like shit" and have no idea how to make it better or where to go from there, I made no doodling gains, ever

>>6408307
Like I said I have no issues when I take my time to sketch and construct things out

>> No.6408312
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6408312

>>6408265
Visualization isn't necessary. It's nice to have I guess, but it's not where your ability to imagine or your drawing ability comes from.
If you want to create from scratch, you have to do so by feeling. Doodling 3D form, tweaking and shaping and experimenting in real time on canvas. It's like playing with Legos or clay, you just build stuff and mess around.
Look into automatic drawing, and check out Steven Zapata's Drawing Meditation series on YouTube- the first video in particular is very useful.

>> No.6408313

>>6408310
Well if you want to learn how to make cool poses try doing more figure drawing. I found gains in being able to come up with more interesting poses just from figure drawing.

>> No.6408441

I think you've been misled, but I'm not sure how to convince you. I've tried articulating these ideas before, but I'm not sure I make any progress with you dear anons.

You're taking a very small sample and extrapolating, I guess you'd say? It may seem like they're synthesizing out of nowhere, but I promise you that's not the case.

Do you know how to write? Obviously you can type, but can you sit down with a pencil and write down some words? How is it possible that you've learned 26 lower case letters, 26 capital letters, 10 numerals, various punctuation, and then, on top of all of that, you know how to combine them into words, then sentences, then paragraphs. And if you were born before 2010, and you likely were (underage b&), then you may have even learned cursive. Somehow it's possible to learn a few basic techniques, and you can string together words without lifting your pencil. Heck, you may have even taught yourself a couple of different typefaces to print in. That's a lot of god damn shapes to remember, but you do it effortlessly. And we haven't even mentioned all the other things in your visual library like circles, squares, rectangles, stars, octagons, etc.

How is this possible? Is it magic? Is it innate? Of course not.

So what's the solution? Well, that's the million dollar question, isn't it? "Just draw." gets about as close as I could ever imagine. That will build your visual library, as long as you're drawing from reference. The more you do this, the more it's like cursive where you somehow simply know where the next stroke goes. And like writing, there are certain rules that can't be violated. If you place a 'r' and a 'n' next to each other like 'rn' it can look like an 'm'. This is the importance of kerning. And if you place two eyes too far or too close apart, you get Anya Taylor-Joy ayyy lmao. Learn the rules, improve your drawing. Or exaggerate it. No rules, only tools.

>> No.6408457

>>6408265
Read the /beg/ sticky on art making process section: https://hackmd.io/UMnZVhNITW-T2wZpHw6d0Q#Art-making-process

It not so trivial as it looks. If you are finding difficult to choose a theme, pick a scene from a book or something. I am still a /beg/inner, so I am not so sure, but I guess that if you gone through this process enough times, you can skip it for recurring subjects, like the artists you mentioned.

>> No.6408463

>>6408457
>https://hackmd.io/UMnZVhNITW-T2wZpHw6d0Q#Art-making-process
This should be required reading to post on this board, frankly. I mean, technically it's supposed to be ("read the sticky").

I remember the first time I learned that my favorite artists would do several "dry runs" (or "studies"). I was like, wait, what? You mean they don't just synthesize directly? Some of them even trace their reference? Isn't that cheating? People who think that's cheating are the same people who think that meat doesn't come from the slaughter of animals. They just fundamentally misunderstand how our world is ordered and how things work. No, Karen, your boneless, skinless chicken breasts weren't grown on a plant. Yes, something had to die for you to eat your shitty cooking.

I think one of the most valuable things you can do is watch time lapses on YouTube. You usually can't see their off-screen references, which is disappointing, but it gives you an idea just how much erasing and starting over happens in the beginning. Also, keep in mind, that might be their hundredth attempt at recording. We have *no idea* how many times they've tried, and a lot of people lie to make their abilities seem better than they are. And some people are "one trick ponies" and do the same thing over and over, with slight variations.

To warm up, I often value paint some 3D primitives lying on a surface. I can set the scene up really quickly and it only takes about 15-20 minutes to complete the render digitally. I've done it so many times it's become second nature.

>> No.6408473

>>6408265
>>never work without references

are you mad? fuck a mind's eye, get refs

>> No.6408474

>>6408265

read books, novels etc... any written work will train your imagination.

>> No.6408483

Do you want to make art or do you want to be a circus act?

If it's the latter, then maybe you should identify your true motivations. Do you just want to impress people? Seems like a lot of work and unless you're Kim Jung Gi levels of good, nobody is going to care or pay attention. Heck, I'm just now learning he died. He was a nobody. None of his "works" will survive in any meaningful way. I forget the exact wording but there's a proverb: "Don't try to live forever. Instead, create something that does."

However, if you want to make art, there's all kinds of ways to go about it. No rules, only tools. Projectors, tracing paper, glass canvas, references...it's not cheating. If you think it is, then you're ngmi. Get your ideas out at all costs.

>> No.6408489

>>6408265
which streams/streamers are you talking about?
maybe they just aren't as good as you think and just draw characters and poses they have drawn or even practiced before traditionally or in their own time. additionally, they might be bad at things that are easier for you, a lot of artists who have no problems drawing people struggle with backgrounds, mechanical components, animals, etc.
overall, i think people definitely have different improvement "curves" over time, but only people who draw and learn can improve in the first place. don't give up!

>> No.6408490

does anyone have that webm of proko trying to draw from imagination and absolutely shitting the bed?

>> No.6408494

>>6408490
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h4-2HRHaHI

>> No.6408495

Because all you did was fundies. Never tried completed works for once

>> No.6408503

>>6408495
see >>6408304

>> No.6408508

I think people greatly overvalue being able to render from imagination. It seems completely rooted in envy and low self-esteem.

>> No.6408511

>>6408508
Rendering from imagination is much easier than creating new designs from imagination, a computer can render light and stylize it but it cannot create new meaningful designs from scratch, that requires human insight

>> No.6408517

>>6408304
You haven't learned to enjoy or have fun with the process. It's a problem with your adult mind. You have to get creative with the process otherwise you wont be able to inject any soul into It
Think of something that excites you. As you draw it think of all the memories, thoughts and emotion that come with the subject.
Think about the endless amount of emotions and ideas and thoughts that you could all blend together to create something with. Experiment and make it fun

>> No.6408957

I have a similar problem, for example I understand face planes, forms, shapes, 3D construction etc and I have no problem identifying them when I see them or understanding what represents what on a drawing, but then I'll see someone draw a stylized face 3/4 profile silhouette in one stroke and it looks like a traced 3D model already and then they perfectly place all the features on the face without needing to measure anything, draw lines or sketches, move things around, liquify them etc, and they can draw final lines that imply curvature and form of the head like it's already on the canvas and they're just tracing over them with the pen. It's not even like the artist only draws sameface, it's an original face design unlike what they have in their galleries.

Meanwhile all I can do is either measure everything out or place features in a vacuum randomly and move them around until I think they look good, or draw then look and fix then look again etc, there is nothing in my head visually until there are lines on the paper.

>> No.6408960

Oh thank god, I thought this was another AI thread for a second. /ic/ is healing.

>> No.6408970

>>6408508
Being able to render from imagination is when it starts to get the most enjoyable though.

>> No.6408997

>>6408265
they draw more than you
you've drawn for 2 years
they've drawn for their entire life
they may be younger than you in life, but artistically you are a baby compared to them
draw more. grow up. become art adult. artdult

or just continue wasting good bandwidth on pity piss parties on /ic/ where other sad fucks can wallow in despair instead of applying themselves

>> No.6409007

>>6408997
You'd expect *some* passive gains after two years though, imagine not being able to do a pushup, going to a gym doing a full body barbell routine for two years, and then still not being able to do a single pushup, that means something has gone wrong

>> No.6409010

>>6408265
Most meaningful art progress comes in bottleneck breakthroughs. When and how they reach you is up to an infinite amount of factors. Don't be so hard on yourself. If you feel like you have far too little breakthroughs, shake up your routine a bit. Start a drawing differently and re-examine lines you make on autopilot. Not enough progress usually comes from lacking challenge, not talent.

>> No.6409012

>>6408265
>he felt for the hard work beats talent meme

>> No.6409024

>>6408265
>still can't invent designs or elements or create from scratch
Here's a shocking revelation, anon: nobody can
Every artist ever has taken inspiration from somewhere, be it real life, other's works, a picture they liked
Copy things you like until you can see them in your mind and put them on paper. Eventually, you'll want to experiment and think "what if I added this or that" and then you'll truly develop the ability to create original designs

>> No.6409035

>>6409007
What OP is talking about- direct drawing from imagination- is fairly advanced stuff though.
I myself didn't really learn that I could even do that until I was, like, 23 years old; and I had been drawing all my life to that point as well, thus I was already used to drawing from imagination and expressing myself freely. Cut em' some slack.

>> No.6409046

>>6408265
>learned the fundamentals
Really? Post your work.

>> No.6409049

Unfortunately, you lack talent.

>> No.6409050

Let's see it.

>> No.6409079

The biggest issue is that good artists gatekeep information. There are exceptions who show their whole process like Jim Lee but most industry artists will never reveal their secrets. The game was rigged from the start.

>> No.6409082
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6409082

>>6409079
how does he do it?

>> No.6409090

>>6409082
asian jeans

>> No.6409092

>>6408265
you don't need to visualize in your minds eye. You need to visualize on the fucking canvas. Nobody cares if you have a fucking symphony in your head if you can't make it happen for real. Just start drawing and see where it goes. Make good pictures come out of nonsense!

>> No.6409121

>>6409092
Agree with this. Visualizing in your head isn't important. I would recommend thumbnailing instead to get down a visual key for a larger piece.

>> No.6409180

>>6409092
i visualize in 3d space and copy it on paper instead

>> No.6410364

No matter how much I draw or what variety, my visual library doesn't seem to go up, the moment I try to draw from imagination I default to the ugly clueless lines and habits I used to draw before I started taking it seriously. I can't in my mind summon forth a combination of the faces, heads, hairstyles, expressions, bodies, clothes, poses, folds, accessories, designs etc that I drew previously and draw them on the page, my mind only has my old habits in it without a reference.

>> No.6410426

>>6410364
I warned u guys about neuroplasticity

>> No.6410430

>>6410364
Probs cause you are an autistic retard than to remember every single photorealistic detail instead of understing things in terms of ratio, cube, angles, shapes lol

You only get good if you simplify then use ref for details, simple as

>> No.6410435

>>6408265
Art is like language. It's difficult to learn past a certain age.
Toddles can learn a language with 0 effort but it's almost impossible for an adult to become fluent in a foreign language.

>> No.6410559

>>6410435
unless ur a talented polygot

>> No.6411324

if you have to design for something, your judgment for design will stay with you much more than if you grind "visual library" aimlessly which is what a lot of artists do. if the work has a purpose, then you try to find the best designs for it.
i make stuff out of actual materials, and i first have to design them. For example, how can i make a knife or a fork that is designed? i can make a mental note of features, such as material, what kind of decorations you can have in it, the structure, whether it uses separate material for the handle, will it have inlay, turned or carved handles, engraving or etching, what kind of etching, symmetrical or no, how will the butt end be, how will the transition be from the handle to the blade or tang, will there be a ferrule, how the ferrule would look, and so forth. a large part of it is knowing some of the possibilities.
this is for objects, but i think some of it applies to others.
sometimes i come up with so much designs and variations that it's a hindrance not knowing which to choose, but sometimes there's one that just makes sense.

>> No.6411370
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6411370

>>6411324
What about purely visual appeal design elements in a given style?

For example a clothing fold can be curved and flowing or it can be sharp and triangular, an eye can be completely round or it can be almond shaped or squarish or offset, a face pointing away can be obscured completely or you can draw some cartoonish approximation of the facial features on the side to imply we can see some of it, a hand can be fully detailed and realistic or it can be stylized as a couple of abstract shapes, shadows can strictly define the objective forms or they could be bulbous shapes slapped on top just for visual interest, the perspective can be realistic or wildly exaggerated for effect, how many hair strands to draw to create the feeling of hair and how many to leave out, where to sacrifice anatomy for shape appeal, how to depict a clear pose without letting clothes folds and meat squishing lines to detract from it while not leaving them out completely, how to balance the rhythm of the shapes vs the rhythm of the lines, there's tons and tons of design decisions to be made about the raw shapes themselves without even getting into the actual subject matter of what's being depicted.

>> No.6411382

>>6410435
Cope harder ngmi crab. You can and should learn and pick up new skills till the day you die.