Constructive Criticism vs Crabbing

[Anonymous No.6153426]

4Chan's way of anonymity enables a very effective criticism and feedback mechanism that keeps it from turning into a touchy feely hugbox each time an artist posts his/her work.

I think we can all agree that harsh criticisms are not a problem, anyone who visits this place knows what to expect, but what about deliberate crabbing?

An experienced artist is knowledgeable enough to give false information in the most convincing way, compromising a beginner's progress and development. This is not about distinguishing feedback between someone who knows what they're saying from someone who doesn't, but between who's sincere and who's intentionally pulling you down.

Give your tips and opinions about accepting criticisms and feedback, ways to evaluate which of those feedbacks are useful, as well as proper response upon receiving feedbacks.

Thank you for reading.

[Anonymous No.6153857]

>>6153426
>Give your tips and opinions about accepting criticisms and feedback, ways to evaluate which of those feedbacks are useful, as well as proper response upon receiving feedbacks.

Break down the advice and try to find holes in it

If it still makes sense = good
If it doesn't = bad

There's no other way I can explain it.
After years you begin to see the most stagnate retards are the ones that hold on to specific methods like they're the gospel.

[Anonymous No.6153872]

>>6153426
youtubers with 400 tutorial videos each 15 minutes long with 6 ads and only 30 seconds of useful information per video are the real crabs

[Anonymous No.6153886]

>>6153426
Well their criticism hold more weight if they post their work and it’s good. Of course, it could not really be their work and of course their advice/criticism doesn’t automatically become valid. I guess it’s beneficial to have an open mind and at least consider the criticism. It’s usually harder in the moment, like when having an e-argument. Rarely will someone admit they’re wrong in the moment, but those with enough self-awareness and willingness to consider new information, may contemplate that internet argument/discussion hours/days/weeks later and apply it. As far as people acting in bad faith and telling begs they are great or attempting to demoralize quality artists, hopefully it’s a relatively small amount. Just be open to criticism and different eyes/opinions on your work, and give it a consideration. Ultimately all the decisions of one’s art fall on the artist.

[Anonymous No.6153890]

Ok so I don't come here that often these days, but, always keep in mind the person you're getting critique from may or may not know jack shit about what they are saying.
My main artistic focus is 3d, and on /3/ it can be painfully obvious when I see awfully inexperienced people spout all kinds of nonsense. It may not be of malice, but advice can be bad if the person giving it doesn't know better.

In /ic/'s case, I'd assume it's much the same. A lot of people here may fall into beginner and intermediate levels. More advanced people don't generally have any reason to stomp down on people behind them, so good advice is usually given in neutral manner. Shitty advice, and emotionally loaded critique will more likely come from crustaceans who are frustrated at themselves or are just otherwise in need of some fresh air.

[Anonymous No.6153895]

>>6153890
>More advanced people don't generally have any reason to stomp down on people behind them, so good advice is usually given in neutral manner. Shitty advice, and emotionally loaded critique will more likely come from crustaceans who are frustrated at themselves or are just otherwise in need of some fresh air.
Agreed. Sometimes individuals are highly offended from neutral language as they’re used to everything being sugar-coated and stilted like most social media promotes.

[Anonymous No.6153911]

There are always bad faith people even outside of 4chan. It's an important life skill to be able to see who is critiquing you in bad faith and who is actually offering good advice. I think this is difficult as a beginner to distinguish however but I would definitely say not to hold anything as gospel. Be willing to change your view point or try new methods, if you don't you could very easily stagnate.

As for picking out bad faith criticism as a beginner I would say that pursuing many viewpoints is the way to go. If one person says something and four others say another it can make it easier to distinguish the bullshit. So post your work many places and get that feedback as much as possible.


This is a random aside but feels like the right thread. Also I feel like this only applies to more advanced artists but art is so subjective that sometimes what might be "correct" might not be something that you want to pursue. It's important to not only have humility in this field to accept critique but also confidence to stand behind your work despite critique in certain scenarios.

[Anonymous No.6153921]

>>6153911
>pursuing many viewpoints is the way to go
I was going to say this as well. In my experience, it's not always that one group is wrong and one is right, but that both groups may have an element of truth to what they're saying. People may believe in stupid things, but they do have a reason as to why they believe in those stupid things.

[Anonymous No.6153946]

>>6153872
+1
XDHJH

[Anonymous No.6153965]

It's not that I crab. I just see advice that others give that I disagree with and I'm sure they mean well, but don't see a reason to contest them, especially if I don't see potential in who is asking. A lot of times people give general default advice for something that should be examined more specifically and they seem good, but they most certainly have not even tried to go on the specific path.

[Anonymous No.6153967]

>>6153946
>manual caps on the captcha that auto caps

[HappyNiggerNumber1 No.6153973]

>>6153426
I tried to break the hugbox by giving c&c on youtube but /ic/ got divided, some hate me, some love me.

[Anonymous No.6153991]

I feel like the real problem is the disingenuity behind some posters' intent. They post their artwork under the pretense of seeking advice, but they are really looking for praise or validation. When they receive even the slightest shred of negative feedback, their facade of modesty instantly crumbles, and they go into a defensive meldown. Any criticism is an attack on their inestimable talent, even if the criticism comes from a well meaning place. Some criticism is harsh or even mean spirited, but you need to develop a tough skin if you want to improve.

That fragility is also the reason why they never progress. They project their artistic shortcomings onto these "crabs," real or imagined. *They're* the real reason why they never improve. When they're given solid advice, they abandon their artwork and start another ill-fated piece rather than make the corrections. It would be an admission of fallibility. To do otherwise. Unfortunately, learning is in the doing of art. They just double down on making the same errors they made in the past. There's far more of these types on the board than there are people actually seeking to improve their art.

[Anonymous No.6154033]

Mike Mattesi is the biggest "crab" of an art teacher there is btw, and studying his case is good for learning about snake-oil teachers and how to avoid them.

1. He tries to sell you too hard on his own courses. He has his own brand, the FORCE (tm) drawing method which he sells is the quickest way to learn to draw and find work in the animation industry. He claims to teach you secrets that other art teachers won't tell you, and if you want to advance further in his methodology you have to progressively purchase more advanced and expensive courses.

2. Their own teachings are very different from what everyone else is talking about. Mike Mattesi teaches you to draw by sensing the squiggly "force" line and building form and shape on top of that. He tells you to learn form by scratching "forceful contours" on the surface of the form, and staying away from boxes and cylinders because they're "too stiff". He tels you that every shape has to be asymmetrical (which is untrue) and he ignores rendering in light and shade altogether, because he's trying to teach you to draw like an "animator", not anything else.

3. Their own students are very poor. If you look at his certified force instructors' instagrams, their figures all look just like Mattesi's, but their finished work (comics, animations, paintings) are very bad. The teachings didn't translate over to their finished work. Especially the indian guy who teaches on his site, his work is especially awful

As a beginner it's impossible for you to distinguish between snake-oil teachers and good teachers, since you have no empirical evidence as to what works or doesn't, but if you follow the above guidelines, it should lead you to finding a core group of good teachers: Loomis, Bridgman, Vilppu, etc. Ignore everything fringe, and you'll be okay

[Anonymous No.6154042]

can i post my work to get critiques here?

[Anonymous No.6154046]

>>6154033
The way you describe it makes him sound like a conman. I guess it's telling that I've never heard or seen anyone talk about the "FORCE!" method when giving advice, just "yeah, that exists I guess".

[Anonymous No.6154056]

>>6154046
yeah, mattesi actively hindered my progress for 2 years and I really hate him for it. Finding Steve Huston saved my life

[Anonymous No.6154154]

>>6154042
Sure I'll look at it anon

[Anonymous No.6154156]

>>6153991
saved

[Anonymous No.6154768]

>>6153426
Anonymity and construcive criticism are mutually exclusive. There is no way of knowing who's a disgruntled beg and who might actually have an idea of what they're talking about, especially for a beginner who doesn't know anything. The best you can do is to get a consensus, and even that might have you believe in retarded things like construction being a meme. /ic/ is not the place to learn art, it is just for shitposting. Even the sticky is dogshit. The best thing to come out of this board as far as learning goes are the video courses and books threads. Other than that, don't believe anything /ic/ says.

[Anonymous No.6155235]

>>6154768
>There is no way of knowing who's a disgruntled beg and who might actually have an idea of what they're talking about

1- There's hundreds of years worth information from master artists to compare it to

2- Good criticisms have strong logical foundations. When the advice is legit it clicks instantly.

[Anonymous No.6155243]

>>6154056
Disagree. There are lots of good criticisms that are counter inituitave.

[Anonymous No.6155247]

>>6155243
Meant to reply to
>>6155235

[Anonymous No.6155283]

>>6153426
I'd say experience is what seals the deal here. When you're a beginner you have no way of knowing if what you're being told is true or no(of course assuming it's not a blatant lie), so better take the risk instead of never listening to anyone. But to gain the experience needed to separate bullshit and real critics apart you have to learn, and to learn while keeping the risk of taking bad advices to a minimum you have to diversify your sources, the stuff/people you consult. A pretty clear example of this is some artists i've seen applying Loomis lessons way too hard, making their work decently constructed but lifeless
TL;DR Never listen to the same person/group/thing for everything, diversify the sources of your knowledge
>>6153857
>After years you begin to see the most stagnate retards are the ones that hold on to specific methods like they're the gospel.
Yeah i've noticed the most stupid people are also the most insistent on these methods that they think work like some kind of universal key

[Anonymous No.6155478]

>>6155243
It would be pointless to argue from a purely anecdotal standpoint of what's intuitive so I'll just leave this at an impasse.

[Anonymous No.6158397]

>>6153872
that's not the case really they do all sorts of things and repeating content is how they wind up with so many videos

[Anonymous No.6158491]

>>6153991
>I feel like the real problem is the disingenuity behind some posters' intent. They post their artwork under the pretense of seeking advice, but they are really looking for praise or validation. When they receive even the slightest shred of negative feedback, their facade of modesty instantly crumbles, and they go into a defensive meltdown.
Yeah that’s an odd phenomenon.

>>6154768
>Anonymity and construcive criticism are mutually exclusive.
Absurd.

[Anonymous No.6158501]

I tried posting a thread and I think it's a great example of what you're talking about

>>6158157

Why is it so fucking hard to get some concise, simple advice on a board that is literally dedicated to the topic?? Who the fuck gatekeeps which brushes to use in Photoshop? What an immense waste of time, either provide some insight or just...don't post in the thread. It's like people want to go out of their way to be salty faggots about something as freeform and subjective as art.

[Anonymous No.6158512]

>>6153426
/ic/ sucks because it results in low effort "critiques" that essentially mean nothing.

Any good art server or website will have plenty of valid and useful critiques when asked for, getting good critiques is never that hard.
The difference is that when its tied to your name people go out of their way to make sure what they're saying is true and not just "uh anatomy lmao read loomis", so they actually back up what they're saying with factual information and advice that's actually helpful.
I get far better critiques in random art discords than I ever get on /ic/

[Anonymous No.6158526]

>>6158501
critique isn't the same as helpful advice. Go pay a teacher if you wan't someone who is invested in your improvement. Also, your work looks flat because of the values

[Anonymous No.6158745]

>>6158501
all that info is worth some money it doesn't really matter since no one even wants to do background art but a lot of anons don't know anything about it everyone tends to want an easy way out and if you give them something harder that takes a bit more time effort or even money to learn from they change their mind and don't want to improve anymore

[Anonymous No.6158866]

What other site alternatives are there to /ic/? i don't like using discord because of names and I dislike having to try and get to know people or talk to people or having a sort of "persona". I've already posted my work several times on /ic/ and now I'm tired of posting work on here because I don't like it when an anon recognizes me from past times I've pmw.

[Anonymous No.6158903]

>>6158866
the field seems gigantic, but your interests and skill level usually sets you in a smaller group. if you draw often enough you will be recognized no matter where you go.

at the end of the day you'll just have to get over it. You don't need to play friendly or get along just post art and if you want to talk art then talk art. no need to get into the cliques.

[Anonymous No.6158919]

Getting art "critique" from bunch of begs/int will not improve your art at all. If you're serious about learning how to draw, leave /ic/ and actually read a tutorial book or get an online art course from pros.

[Anonymous No.6158936]

>>6158903
what discords would you recommend? I mean any big or public ones for critique. I can't do small cliques.

[Anonymous No.6159125]

>>6153426
Any purely negative critique should be considered trolling or crabbing, not to encourage hugbox behaviour or watering down useful negative critique, but because
>Positive critique is genuinely helpful in improving, as knowing what went right can help course correct, especially /beg/s who lack the critical eye to know what's right as much as they lack the critical eye to know what's wrong
>Too many negatives leave beglets lost, as there's too much to improve on at once; even if they have a hundred things wrong, focusing their attention on one or two things is more productive in the long run
>As bad as hugboxing is, unfiltered negativity leads to an overall bad mindset and less learning; unfiltered shittalking should be for retards who refuse to learn or accept critique, or tripfags
Nothing wrong with shitposting but if someone has nothing positive to say, at all, I assume they're just trying to crab - no art, not even the worst shit on /beg/, has literally nothing right going on in it
I try to go by the 2 positives and a negative shit they taught us back in elementary school, not to a literal exact ratio but more as a general guideline of more positive than negative, since if there is hardly even one thing right the artist is probably new enough that more than one critique would overwhelm him
>inb4 why should I be positive they didn't earn it
If you're earnestly trying to critique as a method of helping people improve, you should do it in a way that's productive, whereas if you just wanna vent your anger you don't need anyone to tell you how to do that

[Anonymous No.6159148]

>>6153426
I stopped caring about criticism besides from teachers or experienced artists because the shit you get here is pointless and probably given by begs.

I don't really need /ic/ to tell me that my elbows are pointy or to have ic crabs following my socials and making new accounts all the time so they can give me inane commentary like "lol that foot is weird" on an account that was made half an hour ago. I can just imagine a permabeg huffing his own farts and being like 'Hmm, your elbow design is bad, heh, they're way too pointy" while having not drawn in literal days but deluding himself into a feeling of competency due to the meaningless word salad he just vomited out on this board.

Anonymity is cancer for art communities, unfortunately all the discords based off /ic/ are full of cliques and drama but a good way to avoid that is to just not interact with them and mostly post art. That way people have very few biases towards you (unless they hate your subject matter I guess) and you will generally get opinions from people whose work you can look up easily.

[Anonymous No.6159158]

>>6159148
Where do you find teachers or pros though? I have actually gotten a lot of good crits from here in the past and I know some pros lurked here but they tend to be pretty elusive and most of the time when I don't get the rare long critique I usually just get the average "need better anatomy" or "need better values" which of course is true but harder to understand the more you improve especially because things like good light and shadow are extremely advanced

[Anonymous No.6159189]

>>6159158
>Where do you find teachers or pros though?
I go to private lessons and I'm in Ahmed Aldoori's discord.

[Anonymous No.6159194]

>>6159189
Ah, guess I just have to fish around public discords. Thanks for the answer though.

[Anonymous No.6159290]

I take every crumb of criticism anyone trows at me, I've learnt a lot from crits

[Anonymous No.6159295]

>>6158919
Will do this, thank you.

[Anonymous No.6159311]

>>6154154
sorry for responding late, here

[Anonymous No.6159341]

>>6153426
This isn't the real problem.
Rando critique isn't a substitute for a mentor. Guidance and correction are not the same thing.
A 4chan poster can't tell you what you did wrong - they can only tell you what you might have missed. If a person tells you that you made the arm too long, that's an opportunity to look at the arm you drew and make sure you didn't fuck it up, but random posters can't really guide you in any meaningful way.
The only practical asset of /ic/, besides just generally being a community, is that it breaks down oversized egos.
Frankly I don't think oversized egos are that big of a problem in art these days. If you're shit, you'll know about it sooner or later, and stagnation via ego is a lot rarer than it used to be, and even back then it was pretty rare.

[Anonymous No.6159372]

>>6159290
I love your drawings so much

[Anonymous No.6159382]

>>6154033
Theres a reason he pops up on Proko every now and then. People end up there either because Stan invites them to spice up his channel or because they didnt make it and need the kangaroo man to promote them.