You HAVE to stylize EVERYTHING

[Anonymous No.5231857]

For Absolute Beginners:

tldr;
- Stop trying to copy from life.
- You have to stylize in order to make something look good (with simple line).
- Copy from other artists instead.

There's this meme that keeps going around that you have to draw from life which is absolutely terrible advice for absolute beginners.
When an absolute beginner goes to copy something from life, they will inevitably attempt to copy the resulting image in pic related.
Then they wonder why their drawings always look like shit.
It's because you are not stylizing!
You MUST stylize in order to make a drawing look good!
(The only exception is in realism and painting but I'm talking specifically to most beginners who start off with a simple pencil/pen and paper.)

You MUST copy other artist's styles and see how THEY stylize certain features of the face.
It would actually be a good idea to trace that specific drawing of a face or anything else you want to draw because your trace will determine what you are paying attention to when you try to copy that drawing.

If your tracing looks like shit, do not expect your copy to look any better.

This also made me realize that you don't study Anatomy to know how to draw something.
You study Anatomy to learn how to stylize something.

I'm sure experienced artists will try to debate this because they haven't analyzed this concept before (because they never needed to) but copy pic related. Do a copy of it without rendering or painting and using simple line.
It's inevitable that you end up stylizing.
You will always add or remove information that is or isn't there.
It's inevitable.
You HAVE to.

So expecting absolute beginners to draw from life and then wondering why their drawings always looks like shit is complete ignorance and is exactly why we have things like /ASG/.

It's because most of those people were tricked into "drawing from life" without any context whatsoever.

[Anonymous No.5231858]

No

[Anonymous No.5231860]

>>5231857
Every artist does this.
>Yoh Yoshinari
Most of the lines he put on the hair probably don't even exist on the model that he copied from.
I'm saying this as a hypothetical because I know he most likely drew that from imagination but the point remains.

[Anonymous No.5231861]

>>5231857
>Stop trying to copy from life

digital artists lmao

[Anonymous No.5231863]

>>5231857
>Kim Jung Gi
See how he just merges the entire eye and brow together. He doesn't even define the pupil here. He just darkens the entire thing.
THIS is what absolute beginners need to learn.

Stop drawing from life and copy other artists.
THEN you can draw from life with the knowledge you gained and be able to draw something that looks good rather than trying to replicate a terrible representation of a drawing.

[Anonymous No.5231864]

>>5231857
Too long didnt read

[Anonymous No.5231867]

>>5231861
Go ahead.
Draw the pic related and try to prove me wrong.

You can't.
You HAVE to stylize everything to make a drawing look good.

[Anonymous No.5231870]

>>5231864
Don't worry, the people that need to read this will.

[Anonymous No.5231885]

>noun
>designer
>designer, créateur, concepteur, dessinateur, styliste, décorateur

[Anonymous No.5231886]

>>5231863
Look at the nose.
Look at the mouth.
Is that what those things look like?

Everytime I look at people on here, they NEVER draw anything realistically unless it was painted or the person spent hours rendering the drawing in pencil or pen.

Then they go and tell other people to "draw from life."

You want shit like /ASG/ to stop?
Then stop giving shit advice like this.
So long as /ic/ keeps providing misinformation and people choose to arbitrarily draw without anaylizing shit, we'll inevitably get a group of people that will gravitate towards the shortcuts that /ASG/ provides.

But if you make learning drawing the proper way attractive, we'll have less people trying to shortcut their way into getting good.

[Anonymous No.5231920]

Retard. So your work. If you are good then I will listen

[Anonymous No.5231922]

Show your work. If you are good then I will listen.

[Anonymous No.5231935]

>>5231857
This entire post is hilariously misguided but good job finding an insane way to justify your own terrible ability anon.

You drew her hair like two giant lumps of clay, her eyebrows like they are strips of paper attached to her head, her nose like it is huge and her lips like they're a cartoon.

Your art looks like shit because you are just putting lines where you think they should go based on your dumb symbol drawing brain. I know it because I do it too. You have not uncovered some great conspiracy. You just suck.

[Anonymous No.5231940]

>>5231922
I dont care if you listen or not.
Who are you?
If you choose not to listen, it's on you.
But I will never stoop so low as to have to prove anything to a random anonymous person especially when it is formulated as a demand.

[Anonymous No.5231942]

>>5231857
>you have to stylize everything
Absolute retard
The problem isn't reality, but your lack of understanfing of it.
You have to ha e a dorect understanding betaeen what you draw and reality.
Go fuck yourself, and stop giving shit advice.
The people starting out on /ic/ already have enough traps to fall into

[Anonymous No.5231948]

>>5231935
This anon puts it well
>>5231940
You see, you giant retard, you are trying to teach others something pivotal with no evidence that your ideas work. He is in the right for asking you to show your work, because that means your philosophy at least works on you.

[Anonymous No.5231949]

>>5231935
>Symhol drawing
That's not what symbol drawing is.

But that you for proving my point though even if all you did was run the image through a filter.
>Why is the nose just two dots?
That's stylizing the nose.

Again, you cannot prove me wrong and no matter how hard you people try, you will end up realizing that I was right all along and the evidence is all the /beg/ threads who follow your terrible ideology and the /asg/ threads who completely disregard useful tools because they were presented with ignorance.

[Anonymous No.5231953]

>>5231942
Prove me wrong then.
Draw the pic related without stylizing--the way you tell beginners how to draw it.

There is no doubt in my kind that YOU, who is literally telling me that I am completely wrong, will inevitably stylized; DOING THE EXACT THING I SAID YOU WOULD DO.

Go ahead though. Prove me wrong.

[Anonymous No.5231956]

>>5231948
>Drew hair like a giant clump of clay.
And how was I supposed to draw it?

Any response you type would be considered as stylizing.

Holy shit.
The more I read your comments, the more it solidifies my beliefs in this.
The fact that people here are spamming "retard" and other insults means that I've stuck a nerve.
If I was actually wrong, people would just leave a single line comment and hide the thread.

[Anonymous No.5231959]

Stylization is required for aesthetic appeal when you are drawing with that single-thickness pure black line, yes.

Actual artists do what you're calling '''''stylizing'''' in black-and-white lineart drawings by bringing in detail through line weight and shading (in your post you say 'the only exception is in realism and painting - prove me wrong without painting or rendering') because the human brain does not process a flat single-weight drawing like as shown, or your drawing, as the same as life.

The brain processes lineart as a representation of real life, and the more you can trick the brain into believing the lines on the page are a representation of reality, the better you can do. Line weight and shading and rendering/values in color are all elements that help with that. Of course your drawings look like shit if you draw the nose and eyes as one big continuous single-thickness line you fucking dumbass.

[Anonymous No.5231963]

>>5231956
Many people have clearly done that. I am trying to explain it to you because you are misguided and yet acting like you are revealing some big revelation. You are just a terrible beginner trying to justify your own shitty work because you can't take the time to learn properly. I know this, because I am equally bad. But at least I recognize it instead of justifying it. Pic related is my work.

See how it looks like shit? It's because I'm drawing with too thick and heavy of a line, not actually taking into account what makes the eye actually recognize something as similar to real life, not shading or taking into account lighting or gesture, etc... and I realize that i am fucking garbage. These are things i need to work on. I can't get by putting in 30-60 minutes every day or two and drawing more of this shit.

None of that has anything to do with 'stylization'. You're just insecure.

[Anonymous No.5231967]

>>5231949
...are you posting that image because you think the shouting blackbird is in the right?

[Anonymous No.5231975]

>>5231959
You still prove my point.
Why can I not just draw the line as one single continuous line?
If I were to copy an Anime drawing, I could do exactly that and it would look good.
But why not from life?

You just gave me the answer and are basically repeating what I am saying.
You just said that I can't draw the line as one single continuous line.
Says who?
Is not that line perceivable on the face?
So why ignore it and choose to draw it differently than what is exactly on the model?

THAT IS STYLIZING.

[Anonymous No.5231990]

>>5231963
How would you learn how to draw hair?
How would learn how to draw eyes?

Are you really going to sit down and grind studies from life until it looks good?
That's stupid and I know because I've already done that for 300+ documented hours a few years ago.
(People keep trashing my pic but it's not even a drawing, it's a direct trace of exactly the lines that I saw on the model. If I were to draw that same model, I would end up stylizing it.)
That's not how it works.
You may accidentally learn to draw faces better by just drawing them a bunch of times but why put yourself through that when the most efficient way to learn to draw something is to see how other artists do it?

How do other artists draw hair?
How do other artists draw eyes?
Its inevitable that you will have to stylize in order to make a drawing look like it's not /beg/.

Pic related is a random picture from here.
The model doesn't have all the lines that are in this image and there are lines that were excluded as well.
This is all stylization.
The artist chose the information that would look good in his drawing and left out what did not.
That's called stylization.

I do appreciate that you posted your own work though. Thank you.

[Anonymous No.5232062]

>>5231949
>That's not what symbol drawing is.
Symbol drawing is exactly what you did with the mouth outline though. You think it's realistic because it's in the right place, but there are no lines there. Symbol.

[Anonymous No.5232072]

>>5232062
No, that is not what symbol drawing is.
>Pic related is symbol drawing
I literally traced the model.
EACH and EVERY line on that drawing was traced DIRECTLY from the model.
I did not construe any of these lines.
They are exactly what is there, nothing more, nothing less.

What I am showing here is how an absolute beginner looks at a drawing and how they try to draw it.
It looks bad because the way they are trying to draw it is already bad in the first place.

[Anonymous No.5232074]

>>5232072
amazing how you can describe the exact thing you're doing and not think you're doing it

[Anonymous No.5232091]

>>5232072
do you see a single thick black pencil line in that photo? no, because human beings are not made of black and white lineart. if you place nothing but line art down to represent an image, you are already 'stylizing' like you say because you are representing something with lines. your eye can detect silhouettes, so that works with solid objects made of simple geometric shapes without too much occluding it. as soon as you try to convey color or texture or value it all falls apart, because real life is not lines.

[Anonymous No.5232259]

>>5232072
>can't copy a reference properly even when he's literally tracing
>drawing from life must be a scam
kek
thanks for the giggle schizo, you can go back to your corner now

[Anonymous No.5232268]

There's some truth to what you're saying, but the horribly executed demonstration of your point shows that you don't understand how to apply it.

[Anonymous No.5232272]

>>5232072
Oh dear. I pray to loomis may you make it through your /beg/ged days.

[Anonymous No.5232273]

Thanks for this thread anon.
I saved your gif

[Anonymous No.5232310]

If i stylize, how do i will ever stop symbol drawing?

[Anonymous No.5232315]

Why don't you just do both? Copy from other artists and draw from life. Isn't that how you get good in general?
Your stylization comes from mimicking other artists and drawing from real life helps to draw what you see (training analytical/observational ability). Drawing from real life could also help you study values and color (which you can also get from studying other artists).
There is no right or wrong way to draw. Some people especially in the eastern side, learn from copying first and then drawing from real life. While others learn vice versa. You still need both in order to become really good.
You need to learn anatomy and you need to learn from other artists so you can develop your style whether it's cartoons/anime.
You all are saying the right advice so it's just pointless shit-flinging.
Why do we even have this thread.

[Anonymous No.5232327]

>>5231857
Doesn't the lineart looks terrible because there is no hardline on a face but rather shapes and value ?

[Anonymous No.5232331]

Nobody here should listen to OP, start doing Bargue instead pls

[Anonymous No.5232332]

>>5232331
plate*

[Anonymous No.5232336]

>>5232327
soft and blended look the same

[Anonymous No.5232342]

>>5231857
But if I want to draw my own cars I have to study from a real one,same if I want to draw mechanical details or texture.
That doesen't mean I have to exactly copying what I see to create my stuffs,but I will be forced to look at real life at some point.
I guess that a better world would be "simplify" instead of stylize.

[Anonymous No.5232345]

>>5232342
>I guess that a better world would be "simplify" instead of stylize.
Simplfying IS stylizing.

[Anonymous No.5232393]

OP is right, you fools. You still need to bolster your visual library but you absolutely MUST learn how to style your art from other artists (if you're doing a lot of linework.) Even David Finch said it himself that he learned anatomy from studying other comic book artists at the time. He didn't mindlessly grind life drawing.

[Anonymous No.5232400]

OP is a fucking retard. how the fuck are you going to stylise if you don't know what it looks like? the entire point of learning the muscle insertion points is so you can carefully consider what all those random bumps are in order to draw it convincingly, and stylization works the exact same way. if you don't know what it's actually like then you'll just get confused at all the mishmash of lines

[Anonymous No.5232412]

>>5232393
>OP is right, you fools.
>>5232400
>OP is a fucking retard.

Who do I trust?

[Anonymous No.5232453]

>>5231940
>I dont care if you listen or not.
Then why are you making large text posts on an anonymous website and responding to every comment? Someone who isn’t interested in sharing opinions just doesn’t do it. You clearly care. That’s not even a bad thing, I don’t understand why people who care always insist that they don’t. Who are you trying to find play cool for?

[Anonymous No.5232462]

>>5231953
>you can't prove me wrong, so i must be right
why d/ic/ks have this mentallity?

[Anonymous No.5232485]

>>5231949
>That's stylizing the nose
It's not. The contour lines of the nose are something we don't see in the photograph, where we can identify the nose mostly through very subtle shifts in tone. You wouldn't want to put two big strong lines in there, where you can see none, that's the actual (unintentional) stylization.

[Anonymous No.5232488]

>>5231861
Yeah just busy making way more money than you ever will drawing anime coom. Keep coping.

[Anonymous No.5232489]

>>5231857
>- Stop trying to copy from life.
>- You have to stylize in order to make something look good (with simple line).

you're dumb. People already have a style. Stylization can be established though quick gesture drawings, avoiding hyper detail.

op is cringe

[Anonymous No.5232493]

>>5231857
>There's this meme that keeps going around that you have to draw from life
>which is absolutely terrible advice
the reason "draw from life" keeps getting thrown at begs is for a few important reasons
>this is how most people learned so it's a beaten path to walk with plenty of resources
>good way to break out of drawing symbol drawing
>forces you to learn a lot of the fundamentals
the problem with it is when artists (professional and otherwise) act like this is the only way to learn and say things like you must draw from life before you can draw the anime that you actually want to draw. Just draw whatever the fuck you want and as long as you're actively studying and putting in actual effort to learn you'll be fine. There's no set way to learn anything but for a lot of people having guiderails and a path to follow are going to be their only hope

[Anonymous No.5232717]

>>5232074
Incorrect was I traced over the drawing in the frame and therefore it is not symbol drawing.
Symbol drawing isn't drawing what you see, its drawing what you THINK something looks like.
I drew EXACTLY the lines I saw on the model.
It may LOOK like a symbol drawing but it is exactly the lines that are on the model.

[Anonymous No.5232721]

>>5232259
Show me then.
Show me how you would trace the drawing.
Better yet, draw it yourself.

There is no doubt in my mind that YOU will stylize the entire drawing and therefore only make yourself look stupid.

So much shit talking for someone who doesn't post their work (which is stylized, I'm sure).
You just made me laugh. Thank you.

[Anonymous No.5232727]

>>5232412
I'm OP and I say trust your own judgement. Make your own decisions.

If what you are doing seems to work fine for you, then ignore everything here.
But if you're a beginner, chances are the advice on here was generally unhelpful and I want to at least provide insight as to why beginners draw the way they do.

My main point is simply to copy other artists THEN draw from life. Not do the reverse. Once you're comfortable drawing that specific thing or body part. You could learn the anatomy of that thing or body part.
That's all my point it.

[Anonymous No.5232733]

>>5232493
Sure.
No rules, only tools.

People on here keep acting like I'm saying that drawing from life is useless and I never said that.
I said it is useless FOR BEGINNERS who have never drawn that specific thing before (like a face).
Once you learned the common stylized way to draw an eye, you'll never really use the life reference to copy the eye but rather to get an idea of proportion.
Drawing from life is useful, it's just not for beginners.

[Anonymous No.5232743]

Is this 6 months fag?

[Anonymous No.5232749]

>i want to draw realism
>ReALisM iS A MEMe, STyLiZE!!!!!

[Anonymous No.5232758]

>>5231940
Don't worry Anon, you're already more pathetic than what you fear becoming.

[Anonymous No.5232802]

>>5232749
Drawing realism and drawing something looks like something from life are two different things.
Pic related is drawing something that looks like life.

>>5232743
No idea who that is. I've been drawing for more than 6 months.

>>5232758
Cope

Honestly, my goal here and with future posts is to completely fuck up the commission sphere.
I want you guys to fucking hate me because I made drawing so fucking easy to understand that even a beginner could understand it.

When that happens, all of you will cry and bitch and complain that some indian guy is only charging $10 for what you think is a $200 artwork.

YOU WILL BE FORCED to draw with purpose.
You will no longer be allowed to draw some shit anime waifu floating head and make money off of it.

Then all of you will be forced to get good or get a real fucking job.

I do this because I fucking hate all of you.
You made me spend 2 years of my fucking life chasing after memes and once I decided to discard all the advice I had learned from here and start from a fresh perspective, I realized that you people here were the exact reason that I never improved and only stagnated.

Fuck all of you.
I will laugh when I have finally reached the point when I could teach a literal autist how to draw.

All of you will curse me and it will only add to my laughter.
You can mock now. That's what people always do before something happens.
But god damn I am motivated and fired up just imagining the tears of the fucking faggots on here that realize that they have to get a real fucking job.

I will have my day you fucking faggots.

[Anonymous No.5232979]

>>5232802
>I want you guys to fucking hate me because I made drawing so fucking easy to understand that even a beginner could understand it.
I will never hate you. I am 100% on your team and I support you to the fullest, anon.

[Anonymous No.5232990]

>>5231857
You'll hate to hear this but I can tell you just by that tracing you did that you definitely have to draw more from life. You clearly haven't understood the actual forms yet, since you missed most of the important nuances of the lines including line weight that convey the illusion of 3-dimensionality. Furthermore you seem very much confused about how to use line in the first place. Drawing from life isn't about getting all the "lines" right, it's about translating accurately whatever you perceive in a 3-D space onto a 2-D paper. You can translate accuratly while ignoring the actual lines, for example if you draw the hair you can't draw each individual hair or when you draw a tree you can't draw every single leaf, which forces you to translate what you see through other means. That's not what stylization is though. Stylization is deliberately choosing (or accidently if you suck I guess) to go for a inaccurate translation instead, that doesn't attempt to convey the illusion of reality.

[Anonymous No.5233166]

>>5232802
>drawing realism and drawing something looks like something from life are two different things.
my fucking god, get yourself a dictionary

[Anonymous No.5233183]

>>5233166
Right? They're the same damn thing

[Anonymous No.5233244]

>>5231857
I've been saying this for some time now in various threads now, as I grew tired of the "don't symbol draw lawl" comments everywhere. All line drawings are essentially symbol drawing and where yo choose to emphasize your lines is all up to interpretation which becomes your "style". Problem is the most obvious places beginners put their lines don't take any sort of volume into consideration, only the most obvious contrast changes and it ultimately looks bad.

I think studying other artist and attempting stylization is very important, but you should still study from reference and attempt your own the majority of the time.

[Anonymous No.5233275]

>>5232412
depends on what your short term goal is, both are important. if you want to know how something functions in reality a realistic study would be much more beneficial, and if you want to make it look appealing then see how other artists do that. I would however recommend learning the former first because it makes the latter much easier, but both are important

[Anonymous No.5233294]

>>5231857
This is the worst "advice" I've ever seen on 4chan. And that's a lot of bad advice.

[Anonymous No.5233613]

>>5232462
generally in the real world, if a hypothesis is not proven wrong, then it still stands.

[Anonymous No.5233670]

>>5231857
copying is really hard though what should you suggest for the beginner to cope?

[Anonymous No.5233854]

>>5231935
thanks anon, now I don't have to say it myself, you saved me a lot of time

[Anonymous No.5233883]

>>5232979
:)

>>5232990
Conveying 3D is a stylistic choice because you are not drawing exactly what is on the model.
I drew EXACTLY the lines that any beginner would draw on a model and that is exactly why when beginners try to draw from life, it looks like shit.
So how would they learn to draw eyes?
They need to see how other artists do it, not figure it out by luck and "just drawing" from life.

>>5233166
>>5233183
Realism vs Realistic
That's all I'll put here. If you still dont understand then that's your problem as I can tell you dont want to understand even if I show you an example.

>>5233244
Even if volume was taken into consideration, if you do not conform your lines to something besides what is already on the model, you will still get a similar result.
The reason I chose the face because it shows my point perfectly.
Not to mention that no one here even draws in a realism style (which would be the ONLY exception to my hypothesis). Every single person here draws stylized. Then they go and tell other people to draw from life but exclude the fact that in order to make a face look good, you HAVE to stylize.

>>5233275
I have to disagree.
I think learning the latter (how artists do it) makes it much easier to deal with the former (life).
If you have developed a way to draw hands based off of an artist you like, you will bring that specific style with you when you draw from life which is better than going at it with no template whatsoever.

>>5233613
Exactly.

[Anonymous No.5233890]

>>5233670
I'd say to go through Brent Eviston's course first before anything else if you're a legit absolute beg.
After that, you need to decide what course you want to take. What do you want to do with your art and learn what are the fundamentals for what you are trying to learn?
If you're trying to do comic books, which is my aim, I have to learn Anatomy, Gesture, Composition, Value, Perspective, ect.
Then you have to separate the fundamentals and tackle them, giving yourself a realistic timeframes.
Like 1 month for perspective. I have to read as many books as I can. Do as many perspective drawings as I can. Maybe download any course I can on perspective but mostly just drawing in perspective. Then the next month you move onto another fundamental and do the same thing.
Throughout this time, you want to find an artist who's work you like and is something you think you can learn to do if you put time into it.
I personally dont like paintings so I would waste my time following painters but it would make sense for me to follow comic book artists and try to copy their style.
I'm doing all of this while still trying to learn specific fundamentals.
That's the mindset I have.

The last point I want to get across is that beginners often struggle with 3D drawing. Drawing is basically just 3D sculpting in a sense and because you have not achieved a level where you can subconsciously draw things with form or perspective, you have to sit down and work on this.
You do this by drawing tons of cylinders and spheres and boxes and wrapping lines around them.
Find a magazine with an object that has form and trace a wrapping line around it.
Do this enough times and you will intuitively understand form and your drawings will look much better as a result.
Another point is construction but that's a whole other point as well as proportion.

[Anonymous No.5233895]

>>5233890
I should add, before someone else tries to slander me and my point, you can't just 'finish' a fundamental.
You'll always be studying perspective and you'll oftentimes find yourself having to go back to it as I did.
Back when I studied perspective, I recieved what I needed at that moment but now that I'm better at drawing and I notice that my perspective isn't as good as I thought it was, I realized that I have to go back and reinforce what I may have missed out of ignorance and lack of mileage.

But separating fundamentals by months helps you to keep yourself from becoming overwhelmed.
You're more focused and it motivates you to sit down and draw with objective.

[Anonymous No.5233946]

anon, how can you give such a godawful advice?
maybe this sounds better in your mind.

[Anonymous No.5233959]

Has OP posted their work yet? They sound like just another dunning kruger /beg/

[Anonymous No.5233965]

OP is right for any drawing style besides photorealism.

Copying a real photo pixel by pixel is not drawing, its not even creative on any level.

Drawing something like anime in your own unique appealing style means you have to invent or at least come up with an interesting form of symbol drawing. Drawing is symbol drawing. Its the POINT. You're turning arbitrary lines on paper into a hallucination.

Drawing realistic ugly people is shit, nobody here wants to learn how to do that. If you do, then good for you. the big problem with art is how to draw in an appealing style, not how to draw more realistically.

[Anonymous No.5233973]

learning the principals of how light and form works is important to be able to stylize said things. stylization is a natural process of the mind, like breathing although it can be induced it will always be taking place. fools like you constantly misdirect people with your absolutist ideals and its total bullshit. learning how to stylize and draw from life work hand in hand and both skills develop the more you work on them. draw what you want and practice what you can't, just have fun with drawing and don't be overtaken by inane nonsense such as this.

[Anonymous No.5234077]

>>5233973
Really? And how is that working out for begs?
You people seem to be SO fucking confident that I am wrong YET look at the beg threads.
Has your ideology helped them in the least bit?
Absolutely not.
All of your ideologies are shit and the fact that you can't even pull a beg out of beg fucking proves that all of you are so full of shit that you can't see past the shit covering your eyes.
Now it's my fucking turn. You fuck heads had your chance.
Now it's my turn to teach fucking begs how to draw. You've had your fucking chance with all the Loomis shilling and generally unhelpful advice and now I'm going to go at it.
So fuck off and show me proof that you've brought a beg out of beg or else there is no reason for your confidence in your ideology.
I dont give a fuck about your work. That doesn't determine whether you can take a beg out of beg. I want fucking proof of one of your students.
Otherwise, there is no reason to be confident in shit that doesn't work--the beg threads being the evidence.

[Anonymous No.5234085]

>>5233965
Yes, I mentioned that photorealism is the ONLY form of drawing where stylization DOES NOT occur.

Any form of drawing REQUIRES stylization. It doesn't matter how close to life you try to make it, you HAVE to absolutely stylize.
And so expecting beginners to inheritely know this is ignorance and makes begs wonder why their copies look like shit when they are looking at a photograph as the traced drawing in OP.

[Anonymous No.5234090]

>>5234077
Are you going to pyw or what? Just post your /beg/ scribbles, get laughed at, and move on.

[Anonymous No.5234343]

>>5233890
>>5233895
I don't have money for Brent Eviston's course. Got any other recommendations for learning to copy more accurately and efficiently?

I'm getting the gist of 3D drawing down since I've been practicing tons of construction and vilppu's form technique. I just need to study more anatomy, figure drawing, gesture, and most importantly learn to copy better.
Copying is torture to me but I need it the most as a beginner.

[Anonymous No.5234978]

>>5233883
>Conveying 3D is a stylistic choice because you are not drawing exactly what is on the model.
Wrong. Conveying 3-dimensionality is exactly what drawing from life is about and you don't have to make stuff up in order to achieve this at all. Making something look flat on the other hand, like your tracing, is failing at translating accurately and therefore an (accidental) stylization, not the other way around.

>I drew EXACTLY the lines that any beginner would draw on a model and that is exactly why when beginners try to draw from life, it looks like shit.
>So how would they learn to draw eyes?
You do realize that failing at doing something difficult is often times a way more effective way of learning than doing easy things where it's hard to mess up at all, right? A beginner would realize that his drawing looks like ass through feedback and self re-evaluation, and specifically why his translation doesn't convey a realistic effect. Next time he'll go for something different, spent more details on the nuances, etc. It has nothing to do with luck, it's a basic learning procedure.

[Anonymous No.5235008]

Copying your favourite artist is a fucking part of learning to draw. And retard witht half a brain will learn from people who've already achieved what they want rather then trying to re-invent the wheel. Op makes a good point.

[Anonymous No.5235017]

>>5234343
>I don't have money for Brent Eviston's course.
>>5211714
>https://mega.nz/folder/3IsEQA7Q#NMVYBUtPXJpRyrYuUz1NrA/folder/iJNRGQbI

[Anonymous No.5235019]

>>5231857
py stylized drawing op

[Anonymous No.5235030]

>>5231857
gif isn't realistic, where do you see lines floating around irl? all you did there was creating lines inbetween big changes in value, that's not realistic, that's lazy, go do some bargue

[Anonymous No.5235034]

/beg/s shouldn't be allowed outside their containment

[Anonymous No.5235169]

>>5235034
pyw

[Anonymous No.5235185]

Humans see in shape, form, value, and color. That's why wiry-ass line drawings from beginners look like shit.

[Anonymous No.5235264]

>>5231857
ngmi

[Anonymous No.5235466]

>>5235185
This

[Anonymous No.5235606]

>>5235017
Thanks anon! This will do.

[Anonymous No.5235708]

“It may come as a great shock for the average student to learn that accomplished artists radically change — or even eliminate — the cast shadows they see in nature or on the model. It is almost impossible for an instructor to persuade beginning students to eliminate cast shadows. Beginners seem to be attached to cast shadows with blind passion. The best cure for this is to make a number of drawings that illustrate the absurdity of retaining cast shadows in your drawing.
These drawings also present another stunning surprise to the beginner: the discovery that the artist does not draw what he sees. When one of Whistler’s students said, “I like to draw what I see!” the artist answered, “Wait ’til you see what you draw!”

Excerpt From: Robert Beverly Hale. “Drawing Lessons from the Great Masters.” iBooks.

[Anonymous No.5235713]

>>5235708
I think OP is trying to say what RBH said but with a large amount of faggotry.

[Anonymous No.5236166]

It is not possible to make "non-stylized" art. Realism (and realistic art in general) is a style in and of itself. You cannot draw without abstraction, so your point is confused in that regard. No matter what, you have to make conscious decisions about what details to include, exclude, emphasize, minimize, etc.
In picrel, I simply traced the lines present in the original image, nothing was added. That being said, I made decisions on what actually counted as a "line", whether the lines should be continuous, how thick they are, how long they should be. Even your example is stylized.
If we cannot even rely on our own perceptions of they world to relay an accurate image of the world around us (since all information has to be filtered through our brains) then it is absurd to expect a drawing to skip the filtering to process - to be an accurate representation of a "real" thing. Without abstraction, without biases, without thought to aesthetic; without style.
I'm not even disagreeing with the idea that beginning with realism or life-drawing isn't a good idea (in fact, I'm inclined to agree), but you just fundamentally misunderstand what style is, and that hurts your argument considering you've hitched the entire thing upon the concept of style.
Other than that, I think you make a good point. As I child. I began with copying comic books, learned to understand the human face as a simplified series of lines. As I grew older and began to take art seriously, I believe my efforts would have suffered had I not first learned how to draw a greater abstraction before the lesser.

[Anonymous No.5236193]

>>5231857
There is an awful lot doing on in this post.

Some good,some bad.

The idea that:"to copy something from life, they will inevitably attempt to copy the resulting image (sic). Then they wonder why their drawings always look like shit" is wrong.

When you work from life, you don't use a photograph; you work from life, i.e. a model, 3-D, baby.

The idea an artist starts to stylize is correct. But that comes much later.
A strong understanding of how to draw starts with drawing the things the artist sees,the things you see ever day, and then you move on.

Artist's thrive that way. It doesn't mean copying another artist's work, it comes from working from life.

The first caveman that drew something on a wall didn't copy another caveman drawing. He/she worked from life, and stylised from there.

[Anonymous No.5236261]

>>5236193
Quick sketch.

[Anonymous No.5236545]

>>5236166
>>5236193
>>5236261
When I got home from the bar, I worked some more on this. I can almost guarantee I couldn'nt have gone farther/further with my sketches without out having an education from life drawing. I'm not even that good.
Working from models is important.

[Anonymous No.5236558]

>>5236166
Realistic and Realism are two different things in art/art history. Your using them as as false dichotomy; it's very confusing to understand what your talking about when you start a discussion.
I don't understand what: "In picrel" means, I'm guessing you mean:"Per se?"
Lots of philosophical jargon in the>>5236166, especially concerning perception; it reeks of Plato's cave.
I don't sword you're trying to wield, it just reads like word salad.

[Anonymous No.5236563]

>>5236558
>pic related

[Anonymous No.5236576]

>>5236558
>>5236563
I think it might mean: "in pic(ture) rel(ated), I'm dumb, old, and drunk.
My bad.

[Anonymous No.5236585]

>>5231857
>>5231870
why are begs/semi begs so obsessed with pushing their shitty ideas onto others?

>>5231861
>cope lumping everyone because of some random beg fag
tradfags lmao

[Anonymous No.5236588]

>>5236585
Newfag to /ic/
What's a beg?

[Anonymous No.5236590]

>>5236588
It’s a burgeoning eroticism generator

[Anonymous No.5236592]

>>5236590
lol you might as well have said "It's you."
Thanks for the definition, friend.

[Anonymous No.5236811]

>>5236558
I said Realism and realistic art are both styles, that's not a false dichotomy. In fact, it would be a false dichotomy to say that art is either stylized or non-stylized. To say that everything is a style wouldn't be, because that's not an either/or statement.
My point was that you cannot draw without abstraction, without style, so telling people to stylize everything doesn't make sense because everything is already stylized. I'll admit that I was going out of my way to complicate my point, but I was having some fun with it (clearly to my detriment). I think it's important to discuss what we mean by style, because the way you were using the word weakens what was otherwise a good argument. To me, style is unavoidable, and inherent to all art-forms. To you, it seems that style is something that is not inherent to art, and can be absent in certain forms, like Realism.
Perhaps I'm getting too caught up in definitions, but I want to make it clear that I do think you have an interesting point, at least in so far as suggesting that /beg/s shouldn't be encouraged to start with life-drawing and should begin with copying. As I said in my other post, that's exactly how I started as a child, so people might be encouraging /beg/s to skip what could be a very important part in learning to draw. I genuinely hope that /beg/s take your idea seriously :)

[Anonymous No.5238588]

>>5231857
youre just bad at tracing.

[Anonymous No.5238680]

>>5236261
>>5236545
incomplete drawings dont prove anything

[Anonymous No.5238769]

>>5235708
>the discovery that the artist does not draw what he sees.
What did he mean by this? I thought you were supposed to draw exactly the thing that you are seeing. Or is this another way of saying "you're not really drawing the thing in front of you it's just lines and values and shit"

[Anonymous No.5238821]

i agree with op here, it applies for drawing with a pen, and the the "DRAW WHAT YOU SEE, NOT WHAT YOU KNOW" advice could really hurt begs, it sure did hurt me.

But it's not that simple, you surely know both. You have to paint what you see like you see it and get an understanding of why it looks like it does. Stylization are tricks for appeal. Mindlessly copying something/pure mileage is the problematic advice here.

[Anonymous No.5238824]

>>5238821
*know=need

[Anonymous No.5238933]

>>5238769
He's talking about making adjustments like not drawing a cast shadow in certain places or changing certain features if they look unnatural in the reference. It's good advice because the goal of good art shouldn't be to copy blindly but to transform it into your own thing. I don't think it's very useful for absolute beginners though because if you're struggling to even copy what you see properly you won't have the mental capicity to take this into consideration as well. It's also still about drawing from life and therefore goes against what OP is suggesting with his "copy from other artists instead of doing life drawings" nonsense.