/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

[Anonymous No.4681489]

"Theory"

It's been a while since I regularly browsed /ic/ ... maybe five years or so. I've noticed a large change in the general topics of conversation.

Back in "the day" the general goal of folks on here was to be a professional concept artist. People would recommend the same material and generally promote the same learning techniques. The largest issue turned out to be that concept art in entertainment design is a fucking tiny industry and doesn't pay enough to live off of. There are many people who are willing to compete with you, and many of those folks actually got a quality Art Center type university to industry geared education. Many of those folks come from monied backgrounds and their investment in their art carriers comes at a far lower risk, and affords them the ability to work for less. In short. Becoming a professional in house concept artist is an unrealistic dream for most of us, just financially speaking. Many have given up on this, but found something else to strive for.


Now people want to get into animation, which does give a slightly larger chance of success, though it is still minimal. The animation industry is larger and there are more places to fit one's self in. There is also no real need to be picked up by a studio, as technology has made it easier to become a successful 'indie' animator, assuming you can market yourself. There is also the prospect of working in "adult" material which offers it's own advantages and disadvantages, mainly money versus putting your face to your fame. No one would mind being known by your face as the best 2d porn artist in the world, but anything less than the absolute best just makes you a degenerate and a creep. That's just where society is now. There is probably a better future for porn artists in a general sense, given the diversity of platforms to show one's art and the ability to be compensated anonymously.

Contd.

[Anonymous No.4681493]

Many of you are still grinding fundamentals and many of you are still finding your first "false peaks" in your art. And here we are in this thread.

Here are the facts:
>Grinding is good for you
know why and what you are grinding, this will make your grinding more effective. Know the difference between deliberate practice and just filling pages to feel like you've accomplished something.

>Master Copies are good for you
Someone else has not only invented the wheel, but they figured out how to make it drive on black ice in freezing rain. Figure out why you are dissecting master techniques. Line weight, composition, light, etc. They can be challenging and boring, but they're masters for a reason.

>Take a break and get back to work.
Some of you might find it easy to stop working and harder to get back to work. Some of you might not want to put your work down and see taking a break as an expression of weakness. Knowing your limits is part of building a professional work ethic, and so is getting back to work.

>Draw every day
This is just common sense. There is no reason not to be mark making as much as you can. Some of you may not have the option, but do the best you can. Contrary to this, it can be possible to burn your self out. Yes you can take a break for a few days. Maybe even a week. Do what you NEED to do, not what you WANT to do.

>No single book or technique is going to save you.
Bridgeman, Loomis, Villipu, etc. They're all worth reading and they're all worth following through. It's not the brand of car you take to the destination, but the drive there. Do the work.

>Regular exposure to quality art that inspires you is good for you.
Get some inspiration. Follow art not artists. Use your brain's ability to subconsciously absorb information. What works for the pros and why does it work for them. What are they doing differently than you are. Do you need to make any lifestyle changes that would improve your work.

Contd.

[Anonymous No.4681498]

>You will improve with time and as you mature as an individual.
Many of you are probably under 18, given the content and opinions posted on this board. I wont hold your age against you and if you're here and working on improving your work, you're ahead of most people. It takes years to improve. There is no way around this. You will be bad for a long time and you have to be OK with that to improve. You will be bad for YEARS and you have to be OK with that. It's knowing that you're bad that helps you, but doing something about it that does the most for you.

>Drawing from life is PEAK practice.
Yes, you fucking degenerates would absolutely benefit from doing a still life per day. There is no way not to become a proficient painter by doing still lives, life drawing, and plein air painting. Everyone who ever mastered their discipline worked from life.

>Work ethic uber alles.
Do the work. I don't care that there is no visible improvement in your work over the last week. Nobody else cares. Do the work. Make the weeks into months, make the months into years. You will improve, and if you're not, then just figure out what you're not doing. There is a resource for anything and everything. Just by typing here, you've proven that the combined knowledge of the human race is at your literal fingertips and you're just going to use it to play video games and jerk off.

>You will grow up.
You just might fail at your dreams and how will you deal with that. What impact will your life responsibilities have on your improvement as an artist. Will you still have the work ethic to practice after a ten hour day of hard labor. God forbid any of you get laid, but what happens when you have children you have to take care of. Perhaps they will benefit more from your practice that you will. These are all questions that you might not have to answer today, but one day you will answer them.

[Anonymous No.4681499]

I'm not here to tell you how to practice. I'm not here to shake you by the shoulders and tell you that you're a moron or a lazy bastard. I'm here to disseminate my own experiences and knowledge of learning to get gud and put it right in front of you. It's your job to make with it what you will. Most of you are bad. That's ok. I'm not going to read thread after thread of people whining about not improving or being lost and scared. I want to see this place become the git gud factory it used to almost be.

There are too many "woe is me" posts on here. Too many people asking questions answered every day. There is too much denial and too many coping mechanisms. This board is full of trash and it shows. We can clean this place up and it starts with you.

[Anonymous No.4681538]

>>4681489
thanks buddy
very helpful as I seem to hit mental blocks that can only be resolved with time

[Anonymous No.4681551]

>>4681489
One the best posts of all time on this board.

[Anonymous No.4681558]

>>4681489
The only true thing in this post is that people really were obsessed with concept art and were thus more serious and dedicated. Now conceptart made place for coom and more casual posts. The quality itself was just as shit back in the days, but there were more threads about actual arts and artists. Less woe-is-me and pure meme threads.

[Anonymous No.4681599]

>>4681538
Time is as important as practice. People who git gud at lighting speed just do so off the shoulders of those who learn the hard way. Such is the way with all things.

>>4681558
So you're essentially saying that the demand in the market of concept art shifted to more easily marketed product. Sex Appeal, etc. The art is made to move product as opposed to strictly communicating ideas.

I don't see too many posts about craig mullins or sparth around here any more.

I don't personally care to concept art anymore, as I've shifted to fine art (mainly landscape painting) so i'm not really up to date with the zeitgeist.

[Anonymous No.4681622]

>>4681489
I think you're suffering from what's called a "dunning kruger" effect

[Anonymous No.4681631]

>>4681489
>There is also the prospect of working in "adult" material which offers it's own advantages and disadvantages
disadvantages compared to what, having to be in the top 1% rendermonkeys planetwise and marketing yourself to the point of meme celebrity so you can start making your first 0.5$?

[Anonymous No.4681637]

>>4681489
People were as obssessed with "making it" as they are now, i see. I am glad art is just a hobby for me.

[Anonymous No.4681647]

>>4681489
The concept art thing bugs me.

I thought the same thing - it's oversaturated, competetive, thin... So I thought I'd make a living as an illustrator for children's book 'cause much more books get printed than games get published.
Then I met Will Weston and he basically told me it's a retarded idea to try to be a book illustrator and that I should go into video games 'cause that industry is huge in Europe.
Now this post.

What the fuck do I do? It's not like my requirements are that complicated, I just want to make pictures all day and will go to any industry that'll allow me to do so.

[Anonymous No.4681659]

>>4681647
Whoever said children's books are a bad market is a massive crab. Have you tried actually submitting your portfolio to a publisher?

[Anonymous No.4681673]

>>4681622
Literally nothing in these top posts is in reference to my own personal skill or my perception of my own skill as an artist. I specifically did not post my own work for obvious reasons, as the advice alone is in line with this board's gospel. I am simply putting a lot of answers that many need to hear in one convenient place, for your benefit.

>>4681631
Do I really need to lay out the disadvantages of drawing primarily pornographic material. Marketing alone limits you to using screen names.

>>4681637
Good for you, and I mean that in the most sincere way possible. Too many people set unrealistic goals for themselves and don't enjoy the activity of 'making' itself.

[Anonymous No.4681676]

>>4681673
>Do I really need to lay out the disadvantages of drawing primarily pornographic material. Marketing alone limits you to using screen names.
Not really, joel jurion draws pretty inmoral stuff and he's pretty famous

[Anonymous No.4681686]

>>4681647
Fuck concept art. The industry sounds so back-breaking.

[Anonymous No.4681690]

>>4681659
I don't think Will constitutes a crab, he's among the most renowned teachers at Art Center with decades of working experience as a background painter for Disney features and other AAA studios.

He didn't say it's a retarded idea, but he said that almost no one makes a living doing children's books, the people who do make them usually have additional sources of income elsewhere. It's not that books wouldn't get published, or there wouldn't be a demand, but there's simply not any serious money in illustration for print. It's considered normal to pay $60 per illustration.
If you want to make a comfortable living, you should go to where the money is - big budget industries that are only going to grow in the foreseeable future, namely movie industry in the US (both cartoon and live action) and games in Europe.

[Anonymous No.4681697]

>>4681686
What the fuck do I do then? No illustration for print, no concept art... It seems that the only way to make a living as an artist is to fuck drawing and learn VFX for films or some other technical shit.

[Anonymous No.4681700]

>>4681697
You can do concept art. I just don't like it personally.

[Anonymous No.4681712]

>>4681676
My point was that the rules are different if you're good enough. Most people aren't going to get to a point where they can back their work with their own face though. It's not like you cant find a hundred examples of porn artists that are publicly known, but you don't see people on this board posting hentai to facebook.

>>4681647
The problem with children's book illustration is that there is an ever tightening industry standard of sanitized corporate culture symbolism design. I personally think your best bet is to illustrate your own story and start with what you would have been into as a child. Just make something that would work for you instead of making your work do the job for someone else. There is a need for ideas that come from 'outside' and that's where you come in. It makes their job easier if you take their risks for them.

[Anonymous No.4681758]

>>4681659
As someone who works in children's book illustration, it's hard to find enough of that work to make all my money off of it for the whole year. I supplement it with commissioned portraits, logo work, and web design. Honestly, the web design tends to make more consistent money (it's less feast or famine, because peoples websites need updating and lots of companies have stores or scheduling online now) but I don't enjoy it very much and the clients are really stupid.

[Anonymous No.4681801]

>>4681697
if you notice nowadays 4chan is hardcore shilling and hyper meme marketing
/pol/ is a mess obviously
/v/ is guerilla marketing. How many TLOU2 and cyberpunk threads
/ic/ too with focus on viable commercial art (concept, coom art, with focus on get gud in short amount of time like rapid weight loss, it's a scam)… the demoralization shills are on here too telling autist anons who likes to draw that they're NGMI

the hard work is always gonna be there and you're gonna need to learn to draw and feel shit (foundation) to do any kind of artistic work

[Anonymous No.4681803]

>made it easier to become a successful 'indie' animator
lmao
who?
who made it as an indie animator?

[Anonymous No.4681859]

>>4681803
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cw7aAFS5oc
There's stuff like this all over youtube / vimeo / etc. If you and a small team can do polished work like this, work will come to you.

Look at the Gobelins School youtube channel. They're just shitting out animators who could all be commercially successful. You don't need to grind anatomy for twenty years to make it in animation, you'd be surprised just how far you get with color theory alone. If you think in terms of making a tv commercial length film, sure it's a good amount of work, but it's not impossible to do for a single person.

[Anonymous No.4681870]

>>4681697
You could try fine art and sell smalls (11x14, 8x10, 9x12) for 100 to 300 a pop. People have a hard on for plein air, but you need to be in a place where people are interested in buying the art you would like to make.

[Anonymous No.4681894]

>>4681489
agree

concept art has really lost favor with aspiring artists over the years. The bastions then that thrived of inspiration for concept art have since collapsed, with the death of CGHub, CA, even Permanoobs. All the while it became painfully apparent that photobashing and 3D kitbashing was industry standard- there was no demand for painterly budget ruanjias, jamiejones, minyums etc

then shortly after, sakimichan blew the fuck up and every artist was watching in the wake of concept art.. now all we have is twitter, patreon and artstation, full of fanart, coomer shit and copycats of copycats. no complaints here though, the bar to 'make it' has never been lower and within reach for any artist, if they wish to play along. And I think skillful and creative pieces can stand on technical merit even among the coom/fanart.

>>4681599
>fine art (mainly landscape painting)
trad full time? what is this industry like? and curious to know where you see yourself in 5-10 years time. I was also an aspiring concept artist around when CGhub was live, and missed the boat (for better or worse). I feel that following today's fads (fanart, patreon etc) is shortsighted, in hindsight of concept art saturation. what do you think could be the next big thing?

[Anonymous No.4682146]

>>4681894
I'm a custom art framer, which has gotten me into local art communities. It's a job that doesn't pay as well as it could with the trade off that I know everyone associated with the local art market. I know the people who buy fine art, I know what they like, and I know how much they are willing to spend. Aside from that I do labor for actual money and actual hours. Painting is like that third job that eats into my sleep schedule. I get some commission work, but most of my sales go to wealthy boomers. They truly enjoy buying art and supporting artists. They'll ask if you have any sunsets, and you'll say yeah sure (because you painted a 4ft landscape painting in four hours the other day) and suddenly you've just made 1k+. The trick is that you need to meet people and talk about art.

[Anonymous No.4682252]

>>4681493
Quality post, thanks anon.
Please tell us more about your journey to mastering the fundamentals.

[Anonymous No.4682321]

>>4682252
It's not so much mastering them as just continuing to practice and pushing your weak points. I did a shit ton of figure drawing during college. I took every figure class possible and audited anything I had time to get to. I never did any landscape painting, so that was my weak point. I was still using a tablet to digital paint in a dorm or apartment, working out of reference folders. A little baby concept artist.

I majored in painting and just felt purpose in blocking in color. Learning accuracy with color and light takes a long time in practice. There's no better feeling than creating space on a 2D plain so I started taking photos and working with them in studio doing gridded realism grinding. I bulk buy 4 ft prestretched canvas at 70% off.

At the end of the day, you've got something you're holding in your hands. Something that you've labored over that can be worth real money. 'Normal' people feel like they cant do it and it's like magic to them. You're literally a wizard just doing some transmutation alchemy.


I'm not even that good. The trick to getting "good" is that "good" is in reference to 'normal' people and not artists, because that's who buys the art. There's a balance of making a piece that someone will love and making the painting you want to make. There can be a lot of overlap.

[Anonymous No.4683609]

>>4682321
Thanks! Great taste in paintings, too.

>>4681859
Is there a name for that kind of technique? I used to think this was called alla prima.

[Anonymous No.4683631]

>>4683609
I'm sure the painting was done alla prima on site. As for naming the technique, it's just efficient brush work.

[Anonymous No.4683720]

>>4681493
>>4681498
>>4681499
I used to share most of these points, but from my personal experience I've come to terms that the most important ones are just not applicable if you've the misfortune of being someone as deeply flawed like me when it comes to art. I'm unable to quit, several years in and I'm still gonna keep practicing every day for years to come but I've come to terms that I might never get decent within my lifetime.

[Anonymous No.4683884]

>>4682321
>The trick to getting "good" is that "good" is in reference to 'normal' people and not artists, because that's who buys the art.

I remember seeing an artist whose work I really like posting a personal project he was working on and talk about how much he improved from doing it, and I couldn’t figure out where he improved or if he even had any room left to improve as an artist. I honestly think once you get past a certain level of skill, you are improving mostly for your own satisfaction because most of your audience wouldn’t even be able to tell anyways. I’m nowhere near that level so it’s not personally relevant to me but it helped me understand why so many artists who’ve “made it” might stagnate or even regress after a while.

[Anonymous No.4684094]

Great insight OP!

[Anonymous No.4684663]

>>4683884
A lot of people have a vision or an idea that they will struggle to communicate because their idea of effective communication is perfect communication. There may be some nuance to their intended aesthetic that is just a hair away from them at that given moment. At the same time they could be trying to just be consistent.

[Anonymous No.4684812]

>>>>4681647
>What the fuck do I do?
you can just search for illustrator in a job listing site and see what you can do

[Anonymous No.4685340]

>>4683720
pyw and what is exactly what you want to achieve

[Anonymous No.4685536]

Some good advice, clarified a decision for me. I have been planning this years long "get good" program and it suddenly dawned on me I that I should just start. Thanks.

[Anonymous No.4685988]

>>4681712
>My point was that the rules are different if you're good enough.
This is where you should post your work as well as a testimony of your success so we can see that you're not a theory-crafting /beg/ like everyone else who makes these pompous threads. Otherwise you are just parroting pyramid scheme marketing fluff from the YouTube channels of snake oil sellers... you are NOT doing that, right????

[Anonymous No.4687663]

>>4685988
I don't draw porn.

Are you ok?

[Anonymous No.4688170]

>>4687663
I don't draw porn either. You said
>My point was that the rules are different if you're good enough. Most people aren't going to get to a point where they can back their work with their own face
You are a massive hypocrite and a /beg/ who doesn't have a single clue about how things work. Posting other people's art doesn't legitimize your fantasies.

[Anonymous No.4688262]

>>4681859
Gobelins is literally a feeder school for DisneyPixar. There is no way anyone except a rich white woman with a network of equally wealthy white people is making a living wage as an indie animator

[Anonymous No.4688269]

Boring thread. TLDR

[Anonymous No.4689676]

>>4687663
You should just read the thread again. %99 percent of it is commonly accepted as good conventional advice. I put it all here in one place for your convenience. I typed all of that out for people who actually want to improve at making art. I took time out of my life to make a post on /ic/ and clearly list out a concise list of helpful realizations that artists often struggle to get a handle on. Then I typed out annotations that I specifically wrote to be memorable and easy to understand. I even stayed in the thread and answered discussions on theory and practice. I'm passionate about art and enjoy talking to other people who are passionate about art. This thread isn't about me. It's about us. It's about you.

If I have made any mistakes in this thread
>>4688262
Perhaps mentioning Gobelins is it. I personally don't even recommend that you even go to a university to learn art. It's not worth the price in the US. especially for the universities that are on a level like Cal Arts / RISD / Artcenter, etc. You can even learn the exact same stuff at a local gallery or studio talking to real artists. My point with directing you to a youtube channel was to point out commonalities in commercially successful art. "Making it" isn't the same thing as living off your art. I don't personally know a single professional artists who's sole income is off their art. I know people who can sell a painting for 30K, but they're not using art as their sole source of income.

>>4688170
>My point was that the rules are different if you're good enough
This is in reference to pornographic art.

To address your hostility, confusion, and name calling I'm actually posting the work of people who have understood most if not all of the facts that I listed out in the master posts above. There are some artists that you will recognize and some that you may not. It's just another helpful thing I have done for you.

You should be more aware of your projected insecurities. It doesn't read well.

[Anonymous No.4690369]

>>4681489
pyw

[Anonymous No.4690385]

>>4689676
>I personally don't even recommend that you even go to a university to learn art.
Me neither man. The only reason you should go to an art school to learn art is if you're really serious about becoming a professional and want all that sweet sweet networking. The camraderie between fellow students suffering through school together lasts a long time. Aside from that you can learn all of the technical shit elsewhere for cheaper, and networking can technically be done on your own too. It's more difficult but it can be done you just have to not be a total sperg.

[Anonymous No.4690408]

>>4690369
This. Anyone can make up such theories. Show us if they actually work, OP.

[Anonymous No.4690413]

>>4681489
>There is also no real need to be picked up by a studio, as technology has made it easier to become a successful 'indie' animator

This is what I'm saying/doing. Animation techniques are open to the public, and the software to become one is readily available for people to use. Since the advantages between being an indie animation and a full-time studio animator are fucking abysmal, there's no harm in just taking a few months off and doing your own animation. Look at a lot of animation youtubers (not that storytime/animation meme garbage), they are quickly approaching the same quality you see in professional animation production. That's the work of literally one person. So if you have the time and talent, fuck it, go be a indie animator. The job is fun as fuck, albeit with zero benefits.

[Anonymous No.4690513]

>>4690408
The more /beg/ someone is the more inclined they'll be to spew this sort of post

[Anonymous No.4690514]

>>4690513
and I'm talking about OP

[Anonymous No.4692253]

>>4690369
>>4690408
I don't need your validation to be correct, though I respect your right to believe that I am wrong. I think it would be a greater contribution to the thread to post your counter-theories and arguments to the "theories" you're objecting to. We (those currently contributing to the thread) actually would like to see what you have to say. Perhaps you could even include pieces of your own work if you believe that It supports your contributions.

>>4690413
The one benefit is making exactly what you want to make. I have a cousin who story-boarded for a saturday morning cartoon. Her drawing got her that far, but in the end result the art is all pre-existing 3d assets anyways. Of course she has some control over the end product, but there was so much more character in her part of the work that doesn't translate down the line.

>>4690513
>>4690514
yikes.

[Anonymous No.4692291]

>Get some inspiration. Follow art not artists.

Expand on this? Are you suggesting not to follow an individual artists' output?

[Anonymous No.4692327]

>>4692253
>yikes
>doesn't post his work
looks like you're a coward. it's ok

[Anonymous No.4692396]

>>4692291
I'm not saying that you shouldn't follow people because you enjoy the influence of their art, but there's too many threads on this board that obsess over people themselves and their perceived output. It's just too easy to build your own expectations according the outputs of a handful of professional artists because (of course) they're the pros. I think this kind of thinking distracts us from the influence that communities as a whole have on artists. We should always be looking for something new and seeing what spider-webs off that.

[Anonymous No.4692424]

>>4692327
>coward
Sure is a lot of toxic masculinity in here.

[Anonymous No.4692465]

>>4690413
Job not fun, many years of struggle, all-nighters, deadline stress, and back/wrist pain lie ahead. Animation will kill you anon! Don't be like your father. Better to just become an electrician, play vidya, and coom.

[Anonymous No.4692492]

>>4692396
Ah I see, don't follow individual personalities.

[Anonymous No.4692765]

>>4692465
This is what reality is telling me but just like cartoons I reject reality.