/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

[Anonymous No.4677031]

I have a hunch that 2D animation is going to have a renaissance in the 2020s, and even Disney will go back to it eventually

3D is powerful but I get the feeling that it has already shown its limitations. The only way Disney and Pixar has to flex in their movies is to make hyperrealistic renders, which have no real artistic value compared to even the most average 2D Disney movie. And let's not even talk about The Lion King (2019) which to me is the worst looking animated film Disney has ever made. The company has gone from being an important artistic reference to being a premium child entertainer.

2D animation in the computer era is insanely powerful. Movies like Klaus showed that they can do "3D" better than 3D has ever been able to, and it looks leagues ahead of even the best of the best Pixar has ever put out. Plus, the amount of work required is a fraction of what it was needed when using just pencil and paper:

- no scanning required
- coloring and postprocessing is easily automated
- 3D for things like backgrounds and machinery to allow more animating effort to be put into character animation

Let's discuss

[Anonymous No.4677045]

But anon, Klaus IS 3d animation made to look 2d...

[Anonymous No.4677060]

>>4677045

Isn't it other way around?

[Anonymous No.4677062]

>>4677031
>Plus, the amount of work required is a fraction of what it was needed when using just pencil and paper:
I like how you start out saying "2D animation is going to make a comeback", and slip immediately into "Look how lazy we can be with it now!"

Howsabout an animated movie done entirely in traditional drawings? Or is that too hard for modern artists.

[Anonymous No.4677063]

>>4677060
it is. anon is just goofin around

[Anonymous No.4677088]

2d animation is definitely going to come back. It looks better and its cheaper than 3d. You could cel-shade 3d models, but that would defeat the point of doing it in 3d.

[Anonymous No.4677132]

>3D is powerful but I get the feeling that it has already shown its limitations
I would agree with you, but it seems like the Popeye movie has been de-cancelled.

Here's what it looked like 5 years ago before it being dismantled in order to reallocate everyone into Emoji the Movie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4tNuM9XttM

[Anonymous No.4677198]

>>4677031
I feel the 3D novelty is wearing off because video game graphics caught up. Imagine going into a theater to watch an hour long cutscene.

[Anonymous No.4677200]

the duality of man

[Anonymous No.4677202]

>>4677200
The left guy is right. The other's an idiot disney exec

[Anonymous No.4677203]

Is not about limitations, but costs.

[Anonymous No.4677205]

>>4677203
2d is cheaper than 3d.

[Anonymous No.4677206]

>>4677062
>lazy
even with all the advantages of using computers to do frame by frame animation, it is still very hard work. It just removes a lot of the logistic problems that traditional media had, which is energy and time and money that can be invested in what actually matters.

>>4677132
I didn't know about it, it looks nice indeed. I feel like 3D is at its best when it is as far as it can from realism.
>produced by Sony
that makes sense. Hotel Transylvania was actually really good, probably the only 3D animated movie I actually enjoyed. I guess they know Disney are on their weak leg and it is trying to sweep in the market somehow, and they are succeeding.

[Anonymous No.4677216]

2d was never gone but it's starting to emerge in larger productions again. Good 3d used to be considered a selling point, but now it's pretty much the standard and they're pumping out so many generic pixar-wannabe 3d films that the market is oversaturated by them, so maybe this will encourage a new wave of 2d productions.

[Anonymous No.4677227]

>>4677216
Though I must add that newer generations of 2d animators seem to be less proficient in draftsmanship than the ones from a few decades ago, I might be pulling info out of my ass but from what I've seen many animators have weaker portfolios than before because schools don't teach the importance of fundamentals as much, and a lot of artists draw half-assed "muh style" characters to hide their lack of fundamentals. Good quality hand-drawn animation requires extremely skilled animators, yet there aren't actually that many in the industry right now.

[Anonymous No.4677237]

>>4677132
Man, i love Gendy. As weak as Hotel Transylvania was i loved it purely for being able to break the limitations of soulless 3D to make something energetic and dynamic.

[Anonymous No.4677242]

>>4677203
meh. In terms of time, it is about equal. In fact 2D has the edge since gestures and squashing and stretching is more time consuming to do properly in 3D compared to 2D. Pixar still animates frame by frame even in 3D so having lerp doesn't help much.

In terms of resources, 2D is definitely the winner. You can do a 2D movie with the laptop you'r writing from. But you need a powerful rendering farm and run it for weeks to be able to render a Pixar quality movie, and that is a pretty consistent cost.

All other costs, like preproduction etc. are indipendent of that

I feel like most people think "oh, you have to draw everything yourself" as somehow more time consuming and costly, without realizing that drawing is VERY fast if you know what you're doing.

The ONLY reason for why it could be cheaper is because there are a TON of 3D animations fresh out of college today, and they can pick and choose high quality animators for peanuts, which I'm feeling is the only reason why Disney is still churning them out like that. Great american 2D animators are either dead or have no legacy, and for that reason it is impossible for them to have any kind of cost effective way of training new generations.

Meanwhile, Japan is setting new standards for 2D animation yearly because they are full to the brim of young passionate animators that are learning from the very best 2D animators in the world right now

[Anonymous No.4677549]

>>4677242
Quality post. Sums up everything succintly.

[Anonymous No.4677559]

>>4677242
>The ONLY reason for why it could be cheaper is because there are a TON of 3D animations fresh out of college today, and they can pick and choose high quality animators for peanuts, which I'm feeling is the only reason why Disney is still churning them out like that.
So yeah 2d is more expensive.

[Anonymous No.4677561]

>>4677559
We just need to lynch ringling

[Anonymous No.4678369]

Why did the west gave up on 2D?
There is so much good animation from the east and here it's all 3D

[Anonymous No.4678380]

>>4678369
Lasseter the Predator

[Anonymous No.4678410]

3D animated movies looks the same it looks like one studio made those massive amounts of films
if you show me. 2D animatwd film i can tell what studio or artist had the influence
connected seems like it is stepping away from the same face 3D animation but the story seems reallt fucking bad
that new glen klee. movie the moon one seems another disney flick same with the dragon chinese animated film
something wish
even tho they are not by disney

[Anonymous No.4678416]

>>4678410
animated films look like shit. They've always looked like shit. I would never hang a still frame from a cg movie on my wall. I'd hang any still frame from ghibli up though. 2d is a fucking art

[Anonymous No.4678418]

>>4678416
*3d animated films

[Anonymous No.4678427]

>>4678418
idk about that
im sure you didnt watch the new frozen movie but my god the effects of that movie is next level
the water, the fire
they have achieved something out of the world.
im not going to say frozen two is the greatest movie of all time because of amazing effects they developed for the movie but im also not going to say it looks bad because it is 3D
my issue is it just looks way too similar to other movies other there from character design to set pieces the acting etc that is NOT by Disney

[Anonymous No.4678428]

>>4678427
the effects are great but it's still soulless.

[Anonymous No.4678432]

>>4677031
I think you're right the only problem is compared to 3d theres aren't a lot of 2d animators. Most animation courses around the world train mostly in 3d theres isn't a lot of skill out there in 2d, most of the tutors of the courses don't know how to animate 2d either. I can see a lot of people online teaching themselves 2d animation though maybe the talent supply will come from there.

[Anonymous No.4678435]

>>4678427
the effects are realistic, for sure. But would you hang up pic related if it were a painting or poster? Isn't it just really uncanny?

[Anonymous No.4678440]

>>4678432
all the big boy schools in north america teaches 2D animation
if lucky paper but paper is soooo costly becauae the tools needed is just no in supply
paperless animation feels like paper animation in my opinion but less flexible
anyhow this is just a small niche of animation
there is rigging, after effects, graphics etc etc
animation doesnt have to be just cartoons or magical girls it can be so much more
it is just good motion and 3D, 2D, RIgs are tools at the end

[Anonymous No.4678442]

>>4678416
>>4678427
>>4678435
Then take this pic. Same shot, same camera angle, but way more aesthetic. At least that's just my own weeb opinion.

[Anonymous No.4678444]

>>4678435
man glen keane's roughs looked sooooo good compare to this
i wouldnt really hang any animstion cel as a work of art either
i can only think of handful of scenes with really good feature like art work i really like BECAUse they remind me of the scene
animation is about motion so idk why i will think of them as paintings

[Anonymous No.4678446]

>>4678440
>paperless animation feels like paper animation in my opinion but less flexible
I don't what what youre talking about my dude. with paper you dont have an undo you cant scale things you cant do anything its much more restricting and the only thing you lose by switching to a tablet is the paper texture but you can always add that in post and its indistinguishable. theres nothing special about using paper your hand draws the same lines wether its pushing a pen on a tablet or a pencil on paper

[Anonymous No.4678448]

>>4678442
>but way more aesthetic
idk as a drawing it is very simple
i wouldnt hang that or the 3D image as paintings
but i do love the animation of princess monoke espically when she sneaks into the iron town and gets hit by the cannon and she lands on the ground like a feather
jesus christ
so good

[Anonymous No.4678450]

>>4678444
True. But even when moving I still kinda prefer 2d. But I'm also not a huge fan of the disney style of drawing, so it might just be my bias towards anime

[Anonymous No.4678453]

>>4678448
I feel like, the simplicity in a lot of these ghibli stills are what attracts me desu. I wouldn't hang up renaissance/rococco paintings but that's just me

[Anonymous No.4678454]

>>4678446
you gave NO idea how fast you are with paper if you never used paper. you can throw scenes away test scense if you have a line tester ease something quickly rerrange the keys put more inbetweens etc etc etc
ya you can scale and play around AFTER you are done the animation but while animatig i feel paper i have way more control

[Anonymous No.4678456]

>>4678444
Netflix should've let Glen make his film in 2d

[Anonymous No.4678483]

>>4678454
i've tried both and with an animation software with my shortcuts set up im 10x faster. fair enough if you prefer drawing on paper and cant get used to a tablet but working digitally is objectively faster

[Anonymous No.4678512]

>>4677242
>because they are full to the brim of young passionate animators that are learning from the very best 2D animators in the world right now
You mean suicidal maniacs that shut themselves indoor to work for less than minimum wage and their expected suicide age is about 25?

[Anonymous No.4678516]

You cant push gesture in 3d as easily as 2d. 3d requires a LOT of work to become energetic that cant be solved with lens tricks

[Anonymous No.4678527]

>>4678435
watching that trailer crushed my soul. The 2D animated scenes are so wonderful, and then you get these fucking 3D goblins. It's like "yeah, you like that? Well fuck you, cause you're getting this garbage instead"

[Anonymous No.4678533]

>>4678512
that's just shitty japanese work ethics, not a problem of animation itself

I feel like there are just as many inspired western 2D animators, but they don't have any support from big companies, so they just begrudgingly do 3D instead.

I'm just waiting for some big name to bite the bullet and do a new 2D animated western movie. The success of stuff like Hazbin Hotel just shows people are starved for something that has any kind of passion in it. HH is kind of average but the simple fact that there is nothing like it in the west made it blow up and build a fanbase for it.

[Anonymous No.4678593]

>>4678483
okay here is a question
how do you setup your keys and add in the breakdowns and inbetweens as fast as paper?
it is alot of playing around and trying yo get the positions of the frames right but with paper i can just rearanage them as quick as possible
also im not slow drawing ditigally
i used the word flexibility and having more control with paper

[Anonymous No.4678606]

>>4678533
adult animation in the west is dead
ppl who really love animation just look for it in japan or europe
it is sad but true and i have no hope
HH is great but indie animation is nearly impossible, it cost so much money and planning is insane. i say without a stuidos help HH will remain a pilot but they can prove me wrong
primal might have been the closest adult north american animation but a french studio animated it so it isnt really a north american
the west is left with sitcoms or rick and mortys

[Anonymous No.4678621]

>>4677132
imagine the fetish art of olive oyl's massive feet

[Anonymous No.4678632]

>>4678606
I wouldn't be so pessimistic

adult media is at its lowest quality from the start of the digital age, and people know this. It's starting to hurt big companies wallet, which means they will start experimenting a lot more.

Doing 2D is relatively low risk compared 3D in terms of investment, and it allows to push visuals a lot more. I'm pretty confident we'll see a few big budget examples in a few years.

Of course it is going to take time but I'm hopeful

[Anonymous No.4678639]

>>4678632
im thinking a decade back and i cant think of anything that came out in the 10 years i can call really good adult animation
maybe im negative but the industry survived for 10 years without adult animation and i doubt they will change their game plan

[Anonymous No.4678955]

>>4677031
Animating 3D is cheap, animating 2D is expensive.

[Anonymous No.4679045]

>>4678955
>>4677242