/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

[Anonymous No.4605520]

What is with this board's obsession with being able to draw without reference?

That's such a strange goal to have since the road to there is basically drawing from reference a ton.

[Anonymous No.4605534]

>>4605520
Because most of the board is probably working on some sort of story or imaginary world and no matter how many references there are in the world there’s probably not a reference for exactly what they intend to do, so they wish to have some artistic independence?
I dunno, you tell me.

[Anonymous No.4605543]

Because have you really ever learnt to draw if you're just copying what someone else has already done?

[Anonymous No.4605544]

>>4605520
This didn't need its own thread.

Drawing from reference to build up your visual library is a very different and more difficult process than drawing straight from reference every time. And duh the point of drawing without reference is being able to rotate things in 3d or do shit like combine animals together to make monsters, or stylize shit easily from understanding it.

[Anonymous No.4605545]

>>4605520
Drawing from reference isn't fun, it's like raising someone else child

[Anonymous No.4605546]

>>4605520
>>4587149

[Anonymous No.4605547]

>>4605543
You can learn to draw that way but you definitely haven't learned to be creative if that's all you do.

[Anonymous No.4605548]

>>4605545
that's why i take photos of my child as a coom artist

[Anonymous No.4605552]

>>4605544
You can still do all of that with references. I can take a side profile image of a tiger, and a front profile image of a chicken, and draw a 3/4 view of a tiger headed chicken using those as reference without needing a literal existing picture of the monster. You can also definitely stylize references easily, you're conflating understanding the essentials of drawing, with having a big visual library.

You don't need to know how to write every book in order to write a good book yourself.

[Anonymous No.4605557]

>>4605547
be creative with collage

[Anonymous No.4605573]

>>4605520
Because it's 98% begs and begs think that if you rely on reference, it's a crutch. But what they don't realize is that it's paradoxical to think that way. How do you develop good design sense or draw something if you've never seen it before? I know I used to think like that for a long time.

[Anonymous No.4605577]

>>4605552
That's halfway between reference slave and based visual library chad. What a strange limbo to exist in.

[Anonymous No.4605584]

>>4605573
More like it's 98% aspiring concept artists but most of those are crabs that won't step out of their comfort zone for the skills they need.

[Anonymous No.4605599]

>>4605584
Funny seeing as how most professional concept artist nowadays just photobash their way through life, it's like reference drawing without the drawing

[Anonymous No.4605607]

>>4605599
/ic/ will never make it nobody here can photobash

[Anonymous No.4605611]

>>4605584
Potato potato lol. My point being, it's a naive way of thinking that holds a grip on you while you're working your way up the chain. When you see your favorite artist (be it concept or otherwise) just produce these amazing designs seemingly pulled from betwixt their buttox at will and explain "oh yeah, I'm just messing around with forms, seeing what feels right to me" it gets far too easy to start thinking "yeah, I can do that too". Not realizing that they can only do that because they have an established library to work with in their head.

[Anonymous No.4605614]

>>4605577
In what world is grabbing references for things as you need them slaving, and wasting time practicing drawing anything and everything without actually having a determined purpose for the knowledge freedom

[Anonymous No.4605787]

>>4605520
It’s fucking childish retardation and a misunderstanding of art. Thats what.
These people are fucking garbage.

[Anonymous No.4605791]

Because I want to. Reference drawing is fine, I do it a lot because it improves my abilities, but in the end just ref drawing is not satisfying for me, and my goal is to be able to translate the things I see in my head on paper, without reference holding my hand.

[Anonymous No.4605793]

No one over the age of 20 thinks you gotta draw everything out of your head. It seems endemic to teenage comics readers.

[Anonymous No.4605806]

Since fucking when? If that’s true then it’s a new phenomenon that developed while I was away. Because this board, unlike any other art community is the only one where I see people encouraging others to use refs. Twitter and deviantart and Discord are the places where it isn’t even gonna occur to anyone to use a ref.

[Anonymous No.4605807]

>>4605520
>he can't draw without reference
enjoy being hamstrung

[Anonymous No.4605809]

>>4605787
What a silly thing to say.
It's ridiculous that you are angry about other people having different artistic goals than you.
Get a grip.

[Anonymous No.4605811]

>>4605543
Yeah ok. God created everything even the stuff you think you imagined. So I guess art is pointless

[Anonymous No.4605880]

>>4605809
Oh fuck off. It would be fine if they didnt talk trash about the use of reference and models and artists who use them.
Grip my cock.

[Anonymous No.4605892]

>>4605611
yeah /ic is full of begs, b-tards with pintrest boards, /gd who clicked on the wrong board, and other non-artists. Just filter the idiots.

[Anonymous No.4606034]

>>4605880
You are probably mad because you are a reference slave and can't draw from imagination

[Anonymous No.4606039]

>>4605880
Stay mad

[Anonymous No.4606046]

>>4605520
Isn't the whole point of art to create your own world? What's the point if you always have to use something else as a guide? The only point of references is to train your eye to understand how light and shapes work.

[Anonymous No.4606051]

>>4605892
this

[Anonymous No.4606056]

>>4605880
Such a silly person. I can't even get mad at you, you're too pitiful.

[Anonymous No.4606070]

>>4605806
I have been here since 2015 and this is the only place where people explicitly told me to not use reference. In recent years a lot of people here have realized how retarded that was, but a majority of people here still perpetuate this belief. I now know it was retarded but I still feel like a hack when I use reference because /ic/ drilled it into me. The only art I can be proud of now is one made with 0 ref..

[Anonymous No.4606071]

>>4606070
You fell for the /ic/ meme

[Anonymous No.4606075]

>>4606034

pyw

[Anonymous No.4606102]

>>4605520
/ic/ doesn't know how learning art works.

[Anonymous No.4606106]

>>4606071
Yes, that's exactly what I said in my post.

[Anonymous No.4606166]

>there are people on this board who believe KJG is a better artist than Alex Ross

[Anonymous No.4606171]

>>4605520
This board is obsessed on making stupid and retarded questions about why is it so hard to not be a loser, like yours

[Anonymous No.4606174]

Most of this board want to become real artists and not fine artists

[Anonymous No.4606175]

>>4606166
>trace stuff from direct reference
And where is the difficulty?

[Anonymous No.4606178]

>>4606175
No rules only tools :^)

[Anonymous No.4606185]

>>4606178
Hi Volen :DDD just because it’s cheating doesn’t mean it’s good

[Anonymous No.4606224]

>>4606185
Nooo not the heccin rulerinos not the darn tootin imaginary principlerinos you are doing me a frighten

[Anonymous No.4606229]

>>4606175
Are you fucking shitting me? Do you not have eyes? Both of the poses are different you idiot.

[Anonymous No.4606259]

>>4605520
For me, I don't see the point of drawing with a reference, unless you're using it as training wheels.

I respect others who do it because you can do whatever you want, but my thinking is that if you're gonna draw with a reference, then just take a photograph and paint on top of it? I don't see the point.

[Anonymous No.4606270]

>>4606259
Drawing without reference is just drawing with a shitty half remembered reference, adding the step of relying on your memory instead of your eyes doesn't make your art more legitimate

[Anonymous No.4606275]

>>4605543
reference is not "something someone else has already done". It's a visual aid to help picture a scene/chunk of anatomy/lighting/mood/color harmony etc ...

People who use reference boards or mood boards responsibly usually produce something that is widely different from whatever they used as support.

Also it's by referencing that you'll slowly build your visual library and stop needing as much reference.

[Anonymous No.4606311]

>>4606229
>Are you fucking shitting me? Do you not have eyes? Both of the poses are different you idiot.
no

[Anonymous No.4606315]

>>4606270
It's not half remembered if you actually build up your visual library. Not everyone is a smooth brain like you.

[Anonymous No.4606316]

>>4606315
You build it up by referencing shit you like.

[Anonymous No.4606317]

>>4606315
Just looking it up again would result in the better drawing 100% of the time

[Anonymous No.4606322]

>>4606317
Holy shit do you think nobody draws poses from imagination?

[Anonymous No.4606324]

>>4605534
yea but there's different ways to accomplish that. lots of people seem to think that drawing from imagination is the best, because you imagine something then just copy that.

I find that approach very boring an uninspiring, it's essentially like drawing from reference except there's a bit more input from you.

a better way is to do automatic drawing, and make something out of random doodling. a lot more fun since you're exploring and you really don't know where you'll end up initially. it's also a lot more intuitive, instead of relying on visual library and memory.

[Anonymous No.4606331]

>>4606324
I am almost 100% certain now that you do not draw. Do you not understand how a visual library works? Do you think we just go through a book of poses and memorize them all?

[Anonymous No.4606332]

>>4606322
Where in my post did I imply that

[Anonymous No.4606343]

>>4605520
Its funner, faster and i can get perfectly fine results with or without reference

[Anonymous No.4606344]

>>4606175

Are you fucked? That pic is the perfect example of how exaclty you should use references. He took a reference and tweaked the pose so as to not literally copy it, to make it his own. His finished illustration is 80% accurate to the reference model. And you know how he did this? By using knowledge of anatomy to fill in that missing 20% with something a bit of change to the pose. A master artist combines both reference AND knowledge.

Google Copying vs Referencing.

[Anonymous No.4606349]

>>4606070
>people explicitly told me to not use reference
I've never seen this, if it happened they'd be called a retard by everyone

[Anonymous No.4606354]

>>4606270
>Drawing without reference is just drawing with a shitty half remembered reference
No, because sometimes that reference doesn't even exist in reality. It only exists in your imagination.

[Anonymous No.4606367]

>>4605543

If you're "copying" your reference then you're not doing it right.

Reference is there for you to extract useful information from, not mindlessly reproduce.

[Anonymous No.4606370]

>>4606344
Good thing that this lowers the entrance barrier right haha

[Anonymous No.4606372]

>>4606367
Fuck and I thought gurney did everything from imagination

[Anonymous No.4606375]

>>4606229
They really aren’t. Is your burger brain really that smooth or have you been drawing for under five years. You beginners surely are the quickest to judge without arguments.

>gives argument
>nooooo you are wrong!!!! *shits in Walmart isle*

[Anonymous No.4606382]

It's literally impossible to draw without a reference, there's always going to be some detail you've forgotten and have to look up.

[Anonymous No.4606383]

>>4606372

He is literally the exact opposite from Kim Jung Gi.

Practically everything he does is from heavily modified reference.

Of course, he often MAKES the reference material himself, but the point stands.

[Anonymous No.4606386]

>>4606382
i think you're suffering from proko brain

[Anonymous No.4606388]

>>4605520
because you have to internalize a ton of information before you can even make use of reference. otherwise you'll just uselessly fry your brain trying to integrate the mountain of information you're referencing into a cohesive piece.

[Anonymous No.4606390]

>>4606383
Honestly for this specific piece I don't understand why you'd need a reference at all, it's all simple boxes, and literally binary shading on the planes, and the final pose and even depth look a bit off. I'd understand it only if you literally start by painting with colors instead of sketching out the layout.

[Anonymous No.4606396]

>>4606386
No man, Proko suffers from copy syndrome. I'm saying you should be like Vilppu and analyse the reference. Look at Gurney for example >>4606367
He sets up a lot of references but he doesn't copy them, just takes what he needs to make it look more real.

[Anonymous No.4606397]

>>4606383
>He is literally the exact opposite from Kim Jung Gi.

Jung Gi wishes he was as good as Gurney. I'd love to see Jung try and draw something that realistic with all the lighting an colours.

[Anonymous No.4606398]

>>4606397
>Jung Gi wishes he was as good as Gurney.
yeah right lol

[Anonymous No.4606400]

>>4606398
>muh thousand folded weeb art!!
lmao

[Anonymous No.4606401]

>>4606397
>I'd love to see Jung try and draw something that realistic
Jung Gi and his partner hyunjin have said that they don't even consider realism to be real art. Besides, realism is easy, all it takes is time. What Jung Gi does, on the other hand, nobody else is really able to do.

[Anonymous No.4606403]

>>4606401
>What Jung Gi does, on the other hand, nobody else is really able to do.
Make completely unusable sketchshit doodle art? Lmao.

[Anonymous No.4606410]

>>4606403
you're seething pretty hard right now

[Anonymous No.4606412]

>>4605520
/ic/ should swallow the redpill that drawing from imagination takes years to master.

[Anonymous No.4606413]

>>4606410
That's now what crabbing is retard

[Anonymous No.4606415]

Everyone on this thread advising against the use of reference is actively sabotaging you beg anon. Use references anon, don't trace them but try to understand and incorporate them, that's how you learn.

[Anonymous No.4606427]

>>4606413
>I-Im not a hateful crab!

[Anonymous No.4606520]

Being able to draw without reference is like knowing a lot of song lyrics by heart, useful as a party trick but it doesn't make you a better singer-songwriter.

Art is construction, and making all construction tools available to you at any time allows you to do far more than just relying on the things you've already seen and drawn. Sure it's possible to achieve KJG's level through decades of work, but that time could been better spent doing something else, like living a life or improving your art instead of expanding your visual library.

There is also no way to ever have a visual library large enough to allow you to draw *anything*, so in an art contest between KJG drawing from imagination and an artist that uses references, in drawing something KJG doesn't have visual memory about, the reference guy beats him every time.

[Anonymous No.4606537]

>>4606520
>Being able to draw without reference is like knowing a lot of song lyrics by heart, useful as a party trick but it doesn't make you a better singer-songwriter.
No. Knowing lyrics is about memory. Drawing from imagination like KJG does requires more than memory.

>in an art contest between KJG drawing from imagination and an artist that uses references, in drawing something KJG doesn't have visual memory about, the reference guy beats him every time.
No shit

[Anonymous No.4606545]

>>4606537
>Drawing from imagination like KJG does requires more than memory.
Drawing from reference requires the exact same things if you're not using a grid copying system (whether literal or mental).

[Anonymous No.4606820]

>>4606056
Not an argument.
Stay plebeian.

[Anonymous No.4606821]

>>4606034
>>4606039

Stay negro.

[Anonymous No.4606895]

>>4605520
Drawing from imagination allows you to freely compose any picture you want. It allows you to make changes for the sake of your composition, the composition that you create from imagination. You have a picture with a pose you like, but you need a different angle? Tough shit if you're a reference slave. You need a group of characters interacting with each other in bizarre ways, but you have no time to or can't find reference? Tough shit if you're a reference slave.

You'll never create the art you want if you're a reference slave. Every good Old Master worked first and foremost from imagination. They did tons of studies from references, but when the time came to tell a story, the compositions were created from imagination.

[Anonymous No.4606907]

>>4606895
Using references and understanding e.g. poses and angles are not mutually exclusive, if the task was to depict an existing person or character in a new creative pose with no easy reference, you could do the pose and angle framework from imagination (which is actually the knowledge you have of gesture, form, proportions, anatomy, depth, angles, perspective etc), but still reference the actual detail and likeness from a photo of the character.

/ic/ seems to have this weird definition of "using reference" = "drawing nothing but the literal reference you're using".

[Anonymous No.4606910]

>>4606403
Just because you are an Imaginationen doesn’t mean talented people shouldn’t be successful. Fine artists are already getting replaced by photography and photocopiers. Creating something from imagination is the ultimate endgoal you imbecile

[Anonymous No.4606916]

>>4605520
>That's such a strange goal to have
Not everyone wants to wind up like Proko and freeze up whenever he doesn't have a reference available to draw something.

[Anonymous No.4606920]

>>4605520
yeah, let me just fire up Google Images whenever i want to draw something.

Fuck outta here, drawing with reference to study with is fine, but doing it every single time you want to draw something is fucking retarded and tedious.

My ultimate goal is to be able to draw pretty much anything without relying on references at all.

[Anonymous No.4606923]

>>4605811
Good thing god isn't real

[Anonymous No.4606932]

>>4605534
What a bunch of plebs. Real art is paintings of bowls of fruits and nude women sitting in chairs.

[Anonymous No.4606935]

>>4606520
>Being able to draw without reference is like knowing a lot of song lyrics by heart, useful as a party trick but it doesn't make you a better singer-songwriter.
I think it's more akin to knowing a lot of progressions, inversions, methods of developing a theme, having a wide range of musical influences you can draw on from memory, rather than having to listen to songs again to recall how they function. You can get away with having a limited musical library, but it isn't a good thing.

[Anonymous No.4606985]

>>4606935
No, that's what fundamentals are for, and you need those regardless if you're using refs or no, drawing from imagination is about having a visual library so the lyric comparison stands

[Anonymous No.4607145]

>>4606985
>drawing from imagination is about having a visual library
Your post gives me the impression that your visual imagination is composed primarily of a few, static objects that you have had to memorize to "see" with the minds eye. Is this true? Because the reason people can't understand your posts is because their own imaginations, like mine, are so ridiculously more complex than that to the point where describing a visual library as a set of single positions of a single image, is ludicrous. Now, forgive me if I'm wrong, but you can't imagine complex motion of a human figure? Large landscapes with objects that would never be possible to memorize? Maybe even just altering the pose of something you already know is too hard? Because most peoples "visual library" is more akin to a visual computer which can create and render any object in any location at any complexity up to manageable levels, regardless of whether or not they've seen it in real life. Their memory is so far beyond even remembering a single one of the "references" used to know what an object would look like using their mind, that they will probably never draw something based on an in-world reference image.

If your imagination is really so dull, I can understand why you'd think everyone is just memorizing references, and for that I truly feel pity.

[Anonymous No.4607195]

>>4607145
I'd explain in detail why you're wrong but seeing as you lack basic reading comprehension skills, I'll try to break it down to a five year old's level.

You CANNOT draw a mangrove tree from imagination if you've never seen one before. It is absolutely necessary to use a reference in order to do it correctly, it cannot be avoided. No matter how special snowflake-y your imagination is, you do not have inherent understanding of the appearance of things you haven't seen before, and anything you think you imagined completely original is remixed from things you've seen before. In order to draw things correctly, a reference is absolutely necessary either during your learning process when you're expanding your visual library, or at the moment of drawing.

[Anonymous No.4607228]

>>4607145
Holy shit, this is not anime dude, calm the fuck down. My man here is unlocking the mind-eye-sharingan as we speak.

[Anonymous No.4607307]

>>4606907
>/ic/ seems to have this weird definition of "using reference" = "drawing nothing but the literal reference you're using".

That's because this place is full of actual idiots.

[Anonymous No.4607314]

>>4606985
>drawing from imagination is about having a visual library so the lyric comparison stands
It is about a lot more than that, but whatever.

[Anonymous No.4607321]

Sometimes I think half or more of this board has very low standards, like we're talking about two different things. If you just want to draw generic big titty anime girl with t-rex arms getting fucked, sure, don't bother using any reference. I mean even then reference would make it better, but who's going to really care?
There's some results, though, you simply don't get without reference, and it's delusional to believe otherwise. I can scarcely think of a truly memorable piece of art which isn't also clearly referenced in at least some places, unless it's a heavily stylized cartoon. Even cartoons often benefit from reference.

[Anonymous No.4607330]

>>4607321
Also, Leonardo on the limitations of human memory. Since somebody invoked the old masters as guys who don't really use reference.

[Anonymous No.4607342]

>>4607145
Holy fuck you’re a fucking cancer.
Pyw. Right. Now. Or leave and never return so that we never suffer through such lethal cringe ever again.

[Anonymous No.4607348]

>>4607228
That's a normal level of visual imagination for a lot of people.

[Anonymous No.4607349]

>>4607348
Pyfw

[Anonymous No.4607376]

>>4605520
There’s probably a lot of 5s on the board, it’s tragic because they probably don’t realize their half retarded and NGMI

[Anonymous No.4607380]

>>4607376
rip glen keane

[Anonymous No.4607393]

>>4607330
>Since somebody invoked the old masters as guys who don't really use reference.

Lolwhut. Who said that?

[Anonymous No.4607404]

>>4607195
>>4607321
>>4607342
If I see a picture of a mangrove tree from one angle, I can rotate it in 3D space and change the lighting to pretty much any other angle. Anyone with a basic knowledge of perspective, construction, and lighting should be able to do this, even if some find it harder than others. This is not magic or sci-fi, this is basic visual imagination. A "reference" as far as drawing is concerned is a specific angle and pose that you have either memorized or are looking at, and using as the construction for your finished work. If you think it is impossible to mentally alter perspective, pose, and lighting without having a specific, memorized reference existing in your head, you're insane. I can't believe I'm actually having this conversation, so far from arguing whether or not drawing from a reference is bad, you've decided to double down on it not being possible to draw something without having seen a reference in the first place. That is beyond belief, to me, that someone actually thinks that, so I'm assuming at this point that we are either misinterpreting things, or you're warping the definition of "reference" beyond meaningful use in the discussion. Because there is no way that you believe it is IMPOSSIBLE or even UNLIKELY to imagine changing the lighting or perspective in your mind. For example if I look at my cup, without moving it or remembering a specific reference I can imagine how it looks from above, underneath, and from a variety of angles. You can do the same with anything, from a person to car to a building, that is not MAGIC. It is basic visual imagination.

What you call "reference" must be very different from mine, because it seems you think a mental 3D model of something which can be rotated and warped at will is a reference. If you think such a thing is "magic", you're actually mentally ill.

[Anonymous No.4607413]

>>4607348
A "normal level of visual imagination for a lot of people" is mashing together things you have seen before. The way you go about getting things you have seen before is to ... HAVE SEEN THEM BEFORE.

[Anonymous No.4607423]

>>4607413
Your posts are a little vague, it's hard for me to understand what you mean and it seems like maybe you have a hard time with English. No offense. When drawing something, yes you have to have SEEN it at least once to know what it looks like, but you can rotate it in your mind and change the lighting without having ever seen it from those angles. And when creating something that doesn't exist, you build it up from basic shapes and contours, and then rotate it in your mind to change perspective, lighting, etc. Yes? That is what you mean by "reference", yes? If that is what you mean, then pretty much everything requires a "reference", real or mental, in order to draw. That is not what most people mean by drawing from a reference.

sorry about the confusion

[Anonymous No.4607439]

>>4605520
it's simple really. I want to draw without having to look for what exactly it is I want to draw first

[Anonymous No.4607482]

>>4607423
You do that with reference man.

>That is not what most people mean by drawing from a reference.

This is exactly what they mean. You take an interesting pauldron design as reference but is front facing view, you rotate it to fit your pose, then you apply lighting, then maybe you add another element of design on top of it from a completely different reference that you also rotate in space ...

I don't why you think most people just trace shit non stop.

[Anonymous No.4607514]

>>4607404
I don't know why you're lumping me into your reply, I said nothing about mangrove trees. I never replied to you at all. Reference images are visual aids for objects you haven't seen before, OR for unfamiliar angles/poses of objects you have seen before. It's that simple.

It has nothing to do with being able to mentally rotate an imagined object. Furthermore being able to "imagine" another side of an object, or different lighting situation, doesn't do jack shit when it comes to seriously draw. It's very easy to fool yourself into thinking you're more prepared than you are. The human brain isn't a super computer even in the best of cases. Yes, I can imagine things, but that doesn't mean I can accurately represent them totally out of my head. That's where references enters, as a visual aid to increase accuracy.

[Anonymous No.4607521]

>>4607423
Sorry but instead of working on your sharingan skills, I think you need to work on your social skills a bit more. Nobody is this dunning kruger about fucking mental visualization

[Anonymous No.4607660]

>>4607482
I mean, that's not how most people seem to be using the term reference on this board, especially not when criticizing it.
>>4607514
>I never replied to you at all
Well I'm replying to you.
Again there's a big difference to me between a "reference" where you look at an object to keep track of its details and general proportions, and a "reference" where you pretty much draw the exact same pose and angle. Yes, those are all technically references, but that is not what people are criticizing when they say that people should not draw only from a reference. When people say that only using references is bad, they mean that not being able to rotate an object visually and only using the same exact angle and pose is bad. They're not saying that bringing up an image of a pauldron to make sure you get the details right is bad. They're saying that never deviating from copying another image is bad.

[Anonymous No.4607678]

>>4607145
Yeah, but if you want to be really accurate you need some experience with the material you're drawing and without it you might be unable to depict your subject properly.
I used to be gymnast and I was really into contortion so I understand quite well the anatomy of extreme poses like oversplits, cheststands or triple folds. I had a conversation with a professional 3d animator with years of experience about the anatomy of the oversplit - what happens with the body when you perform that pose. That animator was not a gymnast and he didn't know, that in order to perform a perfect split you have to not only bend your front leng but also your back. Becuase basically a stretch when your torso is perpendicular to the floor when you're in split requires you to bend your back backwards
When I pointed it out while showing the references he immediately saw that
I don't think that without studying the references, understanding thouroughly the human anatomy or having some experience with that yourself, you could accurately depict such poses

[Anonymous No.4607685]

>>4605534
>this board
>working

very funny anon

[Anonymous No.4607690]

>>4607685
/ic/ is pretty infamous for being dogshit and at the same time frequented on a semi-regular basis by many profs though, mostly lurking just to see whats up

[Anonymous No.4607707]

This place is a mix of horny retards that are either:

Too cheap, or dumb to find what they want to jerk off over - so instead get the bright idea that they'll make their own porn.

The kind of cunt that sets up a moddb page and posts nothing but fucking concept art while furiously crying that Bethesda never called them back to offer them a job.

Bitter, jaded weaboos that live to suck on rice nigger cock and have such weak personal identities that they'll latch anything from grorious nipon - including art.

Autists that can't create, so mindlessly repeat exercises because other autists told them to.

Nonces/Fags/Dog-fuckers that want to visualise and have material to jerk off over.

Add in delusions of grandure and sneering at all the other groups and it should give you an idea why this is such a shithole. If you aren't doing everything from scratch then you're a failure - and being a failure makes it much too painful for the fuck nuggets here to realise.

[Anonymous No.4607796]

>>4607707
You read like that larping schizo in the modern day james thread. Are you him anon ? If not, sheesh, IC is getting visited by all sorts of cunts today.

[Anonymous No.4607820]

>>4607404
>it seems you think a mental 3D model of something which can be rotated and warped at will is a reference
No, that is a visual library entry made using a reference. You don't need to draw Putin from every angle, pose, in every lighting to know how to draw him from imagination in those setups, but you need to at least have drawn or studied him once in any setup to do so.

[Anonymous No.4607851]

>>4605520
Lets you make your own characters

[Anonymous No.4607889]

>>4607660
>but that is not what people are criticizing when they say that people should not draw only from a reference.

How do you know what other people mean? It's pretty clear to me from this thread alone that everybody has a different idea of what constitutes appropriate use of reference. I ask, why does it even matter? Why does it matter how someone else uses reference? Do what you have to do. Some guys are portrait artists and never need to rotate anything. Others need to change things, comics artists for example. What matters is that you get the result you want, anything else is self limiting bullshit.

[Anonymous No.4607908]

>>4607889
>How do you know what other people mean?
because I read their threads

[Anonymous No.4608310]

>>4606520
how do you mess up an analogy that much?
Drawing well without reference is like being able to compose music on the fly. If they were just drawing the exact same picture over and over again then that would be like memorizing lyrics to a song.

[Anonymous No.4608321]

>>4605520
To be able to create your own world and characters with no limitations, to be able to exaggerate and push things, to be able to improvise, etc.

[Anonymous No.4608636]

>>4608321
You can do all that with references

[Anonymous No.4608642]

>>4606390
he probably just has a lot of fun making the models.

>>4606410
you can't crab somebody who's already left the bucket.

[Anonymous No.4608643]

>>4608636
/ic/ isn’t creative enough for that, they’ll just copy it instead of getting the design and idea out of it.

[Anonymous No.4609373]

>>4605520
Because this board's concept of what art is is completely separate from the actual art world.

The reason I avoid it is because I find drawing from reference to be boring as fuck.

[Anonymous No.4609402]

>>4605543
wait but u always is copying the reality properties to been able to draw/paint even without reference

[Anonymous No.4609424]

>>4605520
the point is:

if you want to be a professional in the scenario today u have to be able to draw relative fast and well, u can use references but only to help your art and not to be 100% image based

[Anonymous No.4609434]

>>4609424
because if u only draw needing a image on your face u will spend millions and millions more time instead mind based artist who trained gestures and anatomy, scenarios or whatever. he can do all these nice and very fast only seeing few references when necessary

[Anonymous No.4609701]

>>4607707

good post.

[Anonymous No.4610027]

>>4606397
my dad can beat up your dad!

[Anonymous No.4610095]

I just think it’s fun and feels like playing, whereas drawing from reference feels like work, pic related, only thing I’ve drawn all week, no reference, just playing around.
Besides, why wouldn’t you want to draw from imagination? Nobody says you can’t use references too, what purpose would not drawing without a reference have?

[Anonymous No.4610120]

>>4605520
Why do you care?

[Anonymous No.4610137]

>>4607707
A place like /ic/ is going to have way more "ngmi" types because anyone who has the skill to make it will be too busy working jobs and getting good to post often and would likely mostly stick to the resource threads. Only those who haven't made it yet would seek validation from here.

[Anonymous No.4610138]

>>4610095
Did you use reference for this?
Jesus dude
Do more studies

[Anonymous No.4610142]

>>4610138
lrn2read

[Anonymous No.4610245]

No one will read this but the point of being able to draw without reference is that is completely frees you to create whatever you want. If you reach a KJG level of skill, then anything you can dream of can be drawn. If you have to rely on reference, then you can really only draw whats real. Yes you can use little clay models or something but that is still an extra step. With KJG it is just the man, a pen, and some paper. That's why his work is so pure.

[Anonymous No.4610255]

>>4610245
Yeah and it just takes 20 years of grinding references to achieve your goal instead of actually getting good. I'd rather be able to draw the way I want as soon as possible with the help of references, than only be able to draw the way I want when I'm 40. I can always start on grinding references when I'm satisfied.

[Anonymous No.4610264]

>>4610255
I mean ya, it takes a long time to get good at anything. And there's nothing wrong with grinding references to learn. I do a mix of both.

[Anonymous No.4610349]

Every "reference bad" retard can't draw.

>>4606400
Seething

[Anonymous No.4612288]

>>4605534
You're 100% right, for me at least. I'm writing a story and want to be able to draw my characters. If not for that, I would never have even attempted to draw. Im on day 64 I think of learning to draw, and I now know I need to actually take it somewhat serious if I want to see any real growth.

Pic related is a rough goal of mine.

[Anonymous No.4612385]

>>4612288
Not using reference to develop your imagination and world building is like expecting a writer to write a story with only made up words.

Literally the opposite happens, referencing various things helps you develop your eye for design and shapes. You'll be able to draw your characters better by compiling good reference material.

Don't listen to "ref bad" people, they are setting you up for failure.

[Anonymous No.4612412]

>>4612385
Yeah, I have a lot of reference pictures saved on pinterest. Will I gain whatever experience I need just from drawing the images, or is there a certain way I should go about drawing them?

[Anonymous No.4613312]

>>4605520
I drew without reference one time. I made something from my imagination
It felt really good.
I want to do that more

[Anonymous No.4614254]

>>4612412
you will gain the valuable skill of outputting your imagination onto paper accurately.
my child hood was drawing my hands and other peoples hands and this in turn has given me a god visual library of hand positions

[Anonymous No.4616180]

>>4612412
When you copy them try to modify them somehow, pose, setting etc. Hard mode would be to change the angle. That looks nice btw

[Anonymous No.4617719]

>>4616180
Oh no, I didn't draw that. I used to spam in draw threads on /vp/ about 6 years ago, and I finally got my deliver of "Red from Pokemon Adventures as a Super Saiyan." As much as if live to take credit for this anonymously, it just wouldn't feel right. However, this is a style that I really do like and I will probably try to get to this point eventually. Pic related, in a sense.

[Anonymous No.4617834]

>>4606324
imagine lying to yourself this hard

[Anonymous No.4617937]

>>4605520
Because /trad/ artists are getting already automated and even before almost nobody made money from it

[Anonymous No.4617949]

>realize I've spent a good while reading all of this shitposting and enjoyed it
I'm NGMI

[Anonymous No.4617951]

>>4605520
you're dumb, I can't formulate and argument any other way. you're just dumb. you don't draw, you haven't drawn. if you have, you don't care about it. any aspiring artists wants to be able to whip something up in perfect form and style straight from their heads. the image in your head is always beautiful and soulful, if you could put that on a canvas as-is you'd be a god tier artist. but you can't, nobody can actually, but everyone wants to reach that point regardless. if (You) don't, you're just dumb.

[Anonymous No.4618016]

>>4606166
Better painter yes, but KJG drawings are better. Also I don't like Ross as a comics artist. His style is not good for comics.

[Anonymous No.4618020]

>>4605520
>what's the point of being anything else but a photocopier meatball

[Anonymous No.4619472]

>>4618020
>using a ref = photocopy
Man these NGMIs make me laugh

[Anonymous No.4619477]

>>4617951
how can you draw what's in your mind if you can't even draw what's in front of you

[Anonymous No.4619483]

>>4607376
I can't believe anyone would be anything other than 1

Maybe it'd be hard to some to spin the apple around, change its color, take a bit of it, but god damn.

[Anonymous No.4619979]

>>4605520
Most published images are not in the public domain. Unless I purchase props or hire models, I have to use photographic reference, but derivative works and copyright law is iffy.

[Anonymous No.4619982]

>>4608642
Absolutely. I browse Gurney's blog. The man is having the time of his life.

[Anonymous No.4620270]

>>4606175
Why should art be difficult?

[Anonymous No.4620329]

>>4605520
I used to suffer from this autistic affliction as well. I've drawn my whole life but as a child I thought it was "cheating" if I used references or such. And now I still draw autisticly from imagination but I find references to help lighten the mental work load.