Why is art so rough on beginners? Of all other hobbies i had, drawing seems to make beginners suffer the most. With other hobbies, even if you're bad most people can still have fun and not get depressed.

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Anonymous Sat May 23 17:04:37 2020 No.4600261 [Reply] [Original]

Why is art so rough on beginners? Of all other hobbies i had, drawing seems to make beginners suffer the most. With other hobbies, even if you're bad most people can still have fun and not get depressed.

Anonymous Sat May 23 17:12:13 2020 No.4600269

>>4600261
I think if you only focus on drawing from reference it's not super rough. Drawing from imagination has got to be one of the roughest things to get into though. It definitely rivals my first semester of pure maths at uni coming from a shitty high school.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 17:14:41 2020 No.4600275 >>4600261 it's like math, ever tried learning it without any books but by just copying someone's work?

Anonymous Sat May 23 18:17:27 2020 No.4600385

>>4600275
i'd argue that math is easier because it has a set of predetermined rules that anyone can apply. if you learn how addition works once, you can use it for every addition problem you ever encounter. but if you learn the theory of how to draw an eye, you still have to practice it and look at a lot of different eyes and drawings of eyes before it assimilates into your skillset to the point where it no longer looks /beg/ as fuck

Anonymous Sat May 23 18:24:34 2020 No.4600398

>>4600385
how would you stumble through the number symbol 1, 2, 3, 4 and how would then figure out adding 2945 with 1365 without wasting time. i haven't even touched on division and all the advanced stuff.

if you learn how to add shapes one to another you can draw a lot of non realistic things that still makes sense for others seeing the art.

either way, both are hard without outsourced knowledge, if it weren't it wouldn't have taken so long for the human race to discover those concepts/skills

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 18:41:33 2020 No.4600421 >>4600261 higher margin for error + steep learning curve

Anonymous Sat May 23 18:47:51 2020 No.4600435

>>4600398
With no exposure to existing knowledge. Yes math would be harder. But honestly you can learn to do alot of maths relatively easily.
i.e. getting a career in mathematics (solicitor, teacher etc) is much easier than one in art.

I'm a Software Engineer and have barely put any effort in and I'm a professional and get good money. But art is just alot harder to get good at based on time spent and reward.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 18:50:01 2020 No.4600440 >>4600435 did you have a teacher for both learning software engineer and art? and how many teachers for each?

Anonymous Sat May 23 18:55:18 2020 No.4600446

>>4600261
Could be because expectations don’t match the reality. People have ideas of what they want to draw or paint but when it actually comes time to put that on paper, it all looks like shit because they don’t know how to draw and then frustration ensues. Some of this depends on what you want to draw too. Drawing humans can be pretty unforgiving because there is a certain expectation for how things should look but it doesn’t take much for a portrait to be off.

>>4600275
>>4600385
It’s weird to equate art with math but I suppose if you are trying to learn or discover rules first hand then it’s kind of accurate. With math, things that might appear to work will give you batshit answers.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 19:12:24 2020 No.4600477 >>4600435 >But honestly you can learn to do alot of maths relatively easily. Kind of true but it also depends on what maths you are aiming to learn.

Anonymous Sat May 23 19:15:48 2020 No.4600486

>>4600261
I think most people who try art as a hobby outside of /ic has fun with it. I can't name another forum or group of beginning artists, or ever encountered on, who was as depressing, self-hating, anxiety ridden, and just overall...."special", as /ic. But it's 4chan, home of the "special" misfits and outcasts.
Anyone who is seriously pursuing art and isn't "special" should get the fuck out of /ic. This place isn't for you.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 19:17:59 2020 No.4600492 >>4600486 fuck you and your mom, /ic/ is the most chill place in 4chan, u are the misfit here

Anonymous Sat May 23 19:21:48 2020 No.4600500

>>4600385
>i'd argue that math is easier because it has a set of predetermined rules that anyone can apply.
But, someone working outside of a class still has to learn those rules, just like art. Art classes exist for a reason - to teach you how, in a focused, controlled environment. Same as a math class. And, classes ensure you don't miss basic foundational steps. Sure, I could look up differential equations on Google, but I learned them from a teacher who walked us through it in school.
There's an odd resistance to classroom study here, that's bizarre, and I don't quite know where it comes from. It's partially neckbeard types who insist they can do anything if they read a book, or social misfits who avoid people, or hardcore cheapskates who simply refuse to pay or sacrifice to get into a classroom. And then there's the coomers who know their spurting furry penises won't be allowed in a classroom.

I guess it boils down to this for me - sure, I could try to learn Euclidean geometry on my own. But why would I, when I can take a class to have someone show me? I was painting and drawing for years before I started in college, and even then, I learned enough in each beginning course to make it worthwhile.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 19:22:18 2020 No.4600503 >>4600486 Fuck off then normie

Anonymous Sat May 23 19:23:41 2020 No.4600506

>>4600492
Cry more? Somehow "chill" negates that this place is more about avoiding doing art, trying to learn "tricks" and "secrets" to avoid learning art, and more time is spent crying over how anons haven't drawn, than have. I guess you have a point? Somehow?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 19:24:46 2020 No.4600509 >>4600503 My point is proven, in spades, with the word "normie" - and the amusing part is, you probably will never understand why you proved my point.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 19:25:46 2020 No.4600513 >>4600500 finally someone understood me and put it into understandable words

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 19:30:22 2020 No.4600525 >>4600506 loomis is /ic/ god he aint no trick or secret, u are the tricky one asking to me i cry more

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 19:35:58 2020 No.4600534 >>4600525 I see. You chose shitposting instead of an actual point. Gotcha. My points on /ic stand.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 19:43:16 2020 No.4600550 >>4600534 Don't be a dunning kruger

Anonymous Sat May 23 19:59:37 2020 No.4600579
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>>4600261

If youre not drawing with friends or using art as a reason to enable socializing, you dun goofed.

I found other people who could draw and used to hang out with them, fucking around and making dumb shit. Its easier when everyone else around you is horsing around at the same skill level.
This is why fanart RUNS shit online and why the weebs , furfags and concept autists of yesteryear have rocketed ahead of you dweebs. If youre having fun doing the art, youre going to get more mileage and improve.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 20:02:01 2020 No.4600586 >>4600579 It's hard to get into stuff like that now though if you don't know people who draw irl. A lot of even those niche communities are in discords now which are insular and hard to talk to people on.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 20:03:12 2020 No.4600591 >>4600261 The main key to have fun with art is to not be a perfectionist. Even if you are just a beginner, you still can have plenty of fun with drawing. You just have to put effort into it too and think logical.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 20:04:15 2020 No.4600593 >>4600579 Art should be practiced in solitude. Socializing is for naive faggots.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 20:05:41 2020 No.4600595 >>4600534 jokes on u, i was grinding more loomis, what was u doing until now? i bet u were checking something useless on the internet. stay pleb, pleb.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 21:19:41 2020 No.4600708 >>4600275 >>4600269 It really depends on the person. I as someone who had a talent for math/programming I have to say that pracitcing drawing has so far been the biggest challenge for me but that's because i started with 23.

Anonymous Sat May 23 21:46:50 2020 No.4600758

>>4600261
Speaking for myself, I find it really frustrating that I can't find any resources that focus on what general approaches should be taken to drawing something. Instead, it seems like art books all present the reader with a few specific techniques/tools and give no explanations regarding when/how/why to use them or how to tie them together into any sort of coherent drawing process. It feels like there is an underlying assumption that everyone already has a pretty good idea of how to draw, they just need guidance in a few particular areas. If you don't already have that foundation, there is little information available on how to construct it.

The other major issue is that I don't feel like I can do anything with my drawing skills as a beginner. With other skills, I can do some research, maybe follow along with some tutorials, then start working on my own projects and have fun with it. I have such a poor understanding of drawing that I can't do this: if I try, I swiftly reach a point where I can't continue because I don't even know how to make an honest attempt at what I'm doing, or where to acquire the information I need. All I can do is blindly practice things other people claim are important, because I have no idea what actually goes into drawing anything I want to draw or what skills I need to develop. This is obviously inefficient, because I don't actually understand what I'm supposed to be taking away from what I'm practicing, and demoralizing because there is the constant fear that I'm just wasting my time doing something completely stupid.

I haven't run into issues like this with any other skill. I don't know if the underlying problem is the quality of the materials available, the difficulty of the subject, or if I'm just uniquely unsuited to drawing or somehow subconsciously sabotaging myself.

Anonymous Sat May 23 21:53:34 2020 No.4600767

Honestly age has a lot to do with it, a 10 year old isn’t NEARLY so easily discouraged and still has fun pumping out shitty beg-tier stuff. Getting good requires making lots of really crappy stuff at first, adults and teens get discouraged much faster and are unable to get past that initial hump. If you’d started drawing at 10 you still would have drawn lots of. Crappy stuff but you would have fun and you wouldn’t remember it being unpleasant or taking so long as an adult.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 22:00:41 2020 No.4600781 >>4600261 Comparison is the thief of joy, anon. Stay off social media.

Anonymous Sat May 23 22:25:21 2020 No.4600809
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>>4600275
Another software engineer here. Math is way easier. Starting from knowledge that is very intuitive (such as counting) every single subject builds upon the next in a clear cut fashion so its easy to build a curriculum in which people can have a strong math foundation in which they can transition into specific fields of higher order math, if done correctly this also encourages problem solving abilities. With art nothing is clear cut and everything is hazy and there still hasn't been to this day any sort of steps that someone can take in order to pick up strong art skills in a clear cut fashion, you can tackle a bunch of topics in any order and they are all interrelated to each other so even if you got for instance something like the proportions of a figure right, if you're lacking concepts such as perspective those proportions would be applied differently depending on the angle, oops you also got your lightning and your values wrong, lighting is inconsistent, your draftmanship was terrible as well and you have no knowledge of composition, also you can't do clean lines to save your life! You were doing one thing right but everything is terribly wrong because all the others are and you have to get them all right for a passable result. The only valid approach to art seems to be a mix of brute forcing things by drawing a lot in order to gain control of what you put on paper coupled with having a deep ingrained understanding that only comes with an extremely conscious active effort of improving, extensive practice, deconstruction, understanding and a shitload of intuition of basically EVERY SINGLE SUBJECT. On top of this you have a shitload of downright malicious faggots who are either looking to sell you the promise of learning or gatekeeping stuff either conciously or not
>t. 1.5 years in art and still shit

Anonymous Sat May 23 22:55:07 2020 No.4600849

>>4600809
Meanwhile I'm here trying to figure out how someone would multiply 15 to 15 without following any book or school/teacher in 1 year of grinding math.
Also chemistry, people would probably die trying to expand their knowledge on that.
Or geography and learning how to map the globe without getting lost.
Or learning your first language without anyone explaining to you but be given a book you cant even read.

I think you guys are misinterpreting anon's words, we got teachers and books to teach us the basic of math, without that it would take years to figure out just that, just a quick glance at human history and we probably can safely assume they weren't calculating big numbers as fast as we can now for a very long time.

Hypothetically, with books but without a teacher and in a world where math is totally optional to survive in society, most of us would complain that there would be too many resources and many of them wouldn't be applicable to a total beginner and also because it's totally optional most would just give it up without any repercussion other than not acquiring the knowledge.

The biggest problem with drawing is that schools simple won't teach how to do it properly, we are practically illiterates trying to learn to draw. Have you ever seen an illiterate trying to learn how to read by reading a book? Not fun, confusing and feels hopeless. If we had a proper art education where drawing with construction, perspective, composition, anatomy and all the other fundamentals were taught by someone who knew those it would be a lot less complicated, specially considering you would have 10+ years to learn just the fundamentals of art with the help of someone guiding you.

tldr: read it up. Rant over.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 22:58:13 2020 No.4600855 >>4600275 Maths is super easy, read Mathematician's Lament. School just sucks at teaching it.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 23:07:38 2020 No.4600872 >>4600261 Expectations.

Anonymous Sat May 23 23:23:54 2020 No.4600901

>>4600855
yeah, it's easy. but tell that to my grandmother, people have tried to teach her multiplication or division but with no success and she knowing she doesn't need to learn those didn't help it either at that. at least she knows the very very basic of add and sub and knows how to read, can't say that to everyone her age, specially the reading part. gotta love my country.

Anonymous Sat May 23 23:37:39 2020 No.4600922
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>>4600261
It's hard to stay motivated in art when you know all the things you need grind before starting to draw what you want, the fact that it could take you years to even do something decent is enough to depress someone who is used to the instant gratification of other hobbies like gaming.
Finding /ic/ was the best thing that happend to me because i now have higher standars in art, found a lot of artists i love and know the fundamentals and have a lot of resources on them, but i can understand why other people might get depressed by the same things, it's just not a gratifying hobby unless you draw waifu of the moment art and get thousands of likes on social media.

Anonymous Sat May 23 23:53:15 2020 No.4600946

>>4600849
>I'm here trying to figure out how someone would multiply 15 to 15 without following any book or school/teacher in 1 year of grinding math
Why are you assuming people are not following any books or instruction? we do this with art as well
>we got teachers and books to teach us the basic of math, without that it would take years to figure out just that, just a quick glance at human history and we probably can safely assume they weren't calculating big numbers as fast as we can now for a very long time
We got this with art as well. And art has been a part of civilization way longer before even formalized mathematics became a thing. Yet here we are with clear ways to teach math even to children yet art remains a mystery to even fully functioning adults.
>Everyone is teaching art wrong, even skilled artists!
That's the thing, 2000 years down the road and we still cannot formalize it to a system that people can actually learn

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 23:59:43 2020 No.4600953 >>4600261 youre constantly reminded where the higher bar is. flukes arent really an occurence like in a sport game. its like making a big meal, hours to prepare, consumed in minutes.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 01:30:03 2020 No.4601093 >>4600809 One of the reasons why I shill Vilppu so much on this board is because he's the guy who solved everything for me. Looking back on my beginning years, things were so stressful. But it really doesn't have to be that way at all.

Anonymous Sun May 24 01:45:11 2020 No.4601121

>>4600922
>the fact that it could take you years to even do something decent

That's not it, it's just that what takes 5 hours for a professional might take you a week right now. If you worked on the same image 'until it was good', you would eventually make it look pro. It won't take you years, but it will take you longer than someone that can do it in a day. The problem is most people give up after 2 hours and get depressed that they can't make it good, 2 hours for a pro is 4 days for you.

Anonymous Sun May 24 03:01:45 2020 No.4601212
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>>4601093
I tried him really hard but I'm unable to feel the form whatsoever, As I'm unable to picture anything on my head, feeling implies a second nature understanding of the things at hand. I find I can get more done and better just using extensive construction that takes away the feel part from the equation.
>But it really doesn't have to be that way at all.
What works for you doesn't work for everyone, so lucky you and more power to you. I will keep trying to maximize my odds by working hard on a daily basis and trying to increase my understanding of things with all the material I can find while being both in constant pain and stressed.

Anonymous Sun May 24 03:50:01 2020 No.4601241
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>>4601121
That's seriously retarded, anon. If you lack knowledge and experience there are a lot of things you simply can not do until you learn them. A person who still is stuck on symbol drawing could fiddle uselessly with a piece for a month straight and it would still look flat and terrible. That would only be true when you're on a similar level of basic knowledge and have a grasp of the same basic skills.

Anonymous Sun May 24 04:01:49 2020 No.4601257

>>4601121
>If you worked on the same image 'until it was good', you would eventually make it look pro.
>>4601241
>If you lack knowledge and experience there are a lot of things you simply can not do until you learn them

I think that both of these things are true to some extent.

There are things like perspective and anatomy that you can get right in a drawing by sinking enough hours into it, even as a beg.

On the other hand, there are things that you can never "get right" just by putting time into it, like rendering hair, clothes, stylistic choices, value choices, etc. There are things that you just need to study and experiment with over time in order to get a feel for what works and what doesn't.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 04:11:20 2020 No.4601265 I am an engineering student and I have an easier time doing electron probability calculations than I do with basic gesture drawing and Ive been drawing for 6 months

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 04:13:27 2020 No.4601268 >>4601241 If you redrew the same face 10 times it would look much better on the 10th time, especially if you use a reference.

Anonymous Sun May 24 04:13:36 2020 No.4601269

the problem is that beginners compare themselves to professionals instead of their previous work. you don't see amateur musicians get bummed out because they're unable to compose on the level of mozart and chopin, but for some reason a lot of artists treat drawing/painting as something they need to perfect instead of a constant cycle of satisfying self improvement. you should only compare yourself to your previous work and look to improve based on that. take it day by day and address your biggest flaws one at a time, it's not a race.

Anonymous Sun May 24 04:14:20 2020 No.4601271

>>4601257
Personally I have to disagree with everything but stylistic choices on your list there. I've seen people figure out everything but style. Rendering is easy, value is just with practice, clothes is just practice, but style takes a lot of skill and experience to cultivate

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 04:18:01 2020 No.4601276 >>4601269 Based advice. When I was told this it changed my outlook on everything, and I was finally able to get over my bullshit and actually improve

Anonymous Sun May 24 04:34:07 2020 No.4601298

>>4600261
like other anons have said, you can pursue art as a dumb hobby and have fun with it, and if you're trying to meet the industry standard as a musician or a writer you'll likely suffer as well, but yeah, you can easily see past the flaws in a song or a text, but when you're making visual art the mistakes just stare you in your face.

Anonymous Sun May 24 04:51:12 2020 No.4601311

>>4601298
you can approach art as a hobby and still take it seriously. musicians use etudes to practice repetitive techniques in a more interesting/engaging way. you can do the same with art. it's not like you either have fun or you improve, it doesn't need to be one or the other.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 04:52:00 2020 No.4601314 >>4601269 >>4601276 But what about comparing yourself to people who are the same age or have been doing it about as long as you but are way better?

Anonymous Sun May 24 04:52:59 2020 No.4601316

>>4601269
I think art is rough on beginners because there's really so much to learn and no clear path forward. You can study anything at any time. With math it's different. There's a very obvious flowchart. Arithmetic -> Algebra -> Trig -> Calc -> Diff Eq -> etc etc. There's also the matter of clear boundaries in math strata.

An algebra student isn't going to accidentally try to solve an integral. But an art novice can try (and disastrously fail) to do advanced art techniques, because there's not a whole lot of difference between basic gesture study, and master level anatomy study; or basic value study and master level rendering study. They are extremely similar to beginners. You're drawing a person in a pose. You're painting an object with shadows.

In my opinion also a lot of artists are bad at explaining things, or are tired of explaining things. So a lot art beginners end up getting told "just draw dude lmao". Which obviously in math doesn't happen. "Just solve integrals lmao"

Anonymous Sun May 24 04:57:43 2020 No.4601323

>>4601314
Nope. Still just compare to yourself. You aren't those people, you haven't had their experiences. What if one is the same age and has been doing art the same amount of time, but had formal training whereas you're self taught? How would you even know if they don't say it anyways? It's just not worth it. Compare your work to your work, that's how you gauge your improvement.

Not like you can't have art inspiration or a level of work to work towards, but comparing yourself to others and then saying "I suck" is some smoothbrain bullshit.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 04:59:35 2020 No.4601328 >>4601323 >comparing yourself to others and then saying "I suck" is some smoothbrain bullshit. but...its true

Anonymous Sun May 24 05:00:37 2020 No.4601329

>>4601314
that's still a negative attitude. focus on yourself, don't worry about others. if it takes you 10 pieces to learn something another guy can learn in 1 or 2, it doesn't mean what you're doing is worthless. the real crime would be to give up after a perceived lack of progress. as long as you keep at it and focus on addressing your flaws, you'll get there. most people either give up or stagnate after losing motivation. look at it in the long term- you see these great artists at 50 years old who might've started in their early 20s. their success was in sticking with it. your progress is constant, sometimes slow but always there as long as you dedicate yourself. being a bad artist for 10 years is still nothing in the long term.

Anonymous Sun May 24 08:05:37 2020 No.4601527

>>4601329
>you see these great artists at 50 years old who might've started in their early 20s
Not that guy, but can you provide examples? Every case I see is artists who became good around the 20-26 age mark. I'm starting at 30 so the prospect is very grim even if it takes me a full decade. Don't get me wrong, I don't plan to quit ever and I already draw and study everyday as much as my schedule allows since this might be the last chance I have to chase my dream but having an example which managed to pull this off while working a day job would be inspiring.
>in b4 Van Gogh
The sound of living a life of poverty while being considered a failure and a mad man just to kill myself at 37 doesn't sound very alluring.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 08:23:38 2020 No.4601548 >>4601527 >I'm starting at 30 I'm starting at 31, so first of all fuck you. Second of all at 30 you're much smarter so you should be progressing much faster than a dumb 20 year old. Life experience is the edge you've been given, use it.

Anonymous Sun May 24 08:42:24 2020 No.4601569

>>4601548
>I'm starting at 31, so first of all fuck you
No need to get angry. If anything we both understand each other's struggle.
>Life experience is the edge you've been given, use it
Agreed. I've made little progress strictly due to a strong work ethic. The only thing I asked for was an example if there was any from the top of your head, if there is none I will continue anyway.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 08:44:13 2020 No.4601575 >>4600261 There are kids who got good early because of good art education, just get a good teacher if you're that lost.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 08:47:51 2020 No.4601581 >>4600486 Nowhere else has the anonymity though, which means all people do it tell each other how special and precious their works are. Which is a fountain of bullshit. /ic/ is the only place you'll hear anything like the truth, if you PYW.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 08:47:57 2020 No.4601582 >>4601575 like 1 year of fzd school, just be ready to work like a slave on cotton day for the entire year.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 08:49:29 2020 No.4601583 >>4600579 'horsing around' is contemptible NGMI level cringe.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 08:53:43 2020 No.4601587 >>4601569 >The only thing I asked for was an example if there was any from the top of your head If I remember right the FZD guy said in one of his videos that a lot of the students in his school are late 20s.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 08:56:28 2020 No.4601592 >>4601569 I'm not the anon you were originally replying to.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 09:01:00 2020 No.4601597 >>4601587 I don't know why you would assume everyone is rich enough to just go to FZD

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 09:01:59 2020 No.4601598 >>4601575 How hard is it to find an actual art teacher? It seems like most artists have had their minds poz'd by marxism and who think shitting on a canvas is avant garde.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 09:06:02 2020 No.4601604 >>4601598 very, get a hold of people that left the industry you're interested to teach and knows how to teach. so, not many.

Anonymous Sun May 24 09:20:51 2020 No.4601624

>>4600261
Humans are visually oriented creatures and great pattern recognizers. If your eyes see an image that doesnt conform to what the brain expects or if it doesnt give it the information it wants, the brain will blast a 'this is wrong' message, which is specially bad with the human figure and face because its the thing we recognize best. Being a beginner and seeing the mistakes but not knowing how to fix them easily leads to frustation.
Another thing is that that 'error' message easily outweights the 'pleasant' message that one gets when seeing the good parts of their drawing. To have both enjoynment and also get better, one should aknowledge the good and bad, while not getting hung up too much on either. Even KJG makes mistakes sometimes, and he sees them, but doesnt get hung up on them. Iirc in one of his interviews he even said that when he felt his skill was lacking he'd go observe people in naked bath houses they have in korea.

Anonymous Sun May 24 09:23:58 2020 No.4601628

>>4600261
it's because of reverse dunnig-kruger. you've looked at faces your whole life, and it's one of the most important things inherent to every human, we're social creatures so making sure you differentiate someone from someone else etc. was very important.

essentially, your skill at seeing things is much higher than your skill at drawing. eventually with enough practice your drawing skill will catch up with your seeing skill, then the real journey begins because you have to actually train your eye to get better, which is much harder.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 10:50:34 2020 No.4601758 your step by step process to learn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni4ts22XFsw

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/ic/ - Artwork/Critique