Why do Western teachers hate stick figures if the japanese do wonders with them.

[Anonymous No.4442553]

Save for Loomis (in Fun with pencil) and John Buscema(how to draw the marvel way), everyone in the west seems to demonize stick figures as "too stiff" and "useless".

John Buscema even says everyone used stick figures in the industry when he worked at marvel comics. Now all western art teachers hate them.

Maybe they are too stiff, but it's so much easier to create any pose you want with them for a comic, and control the perspective with them compared to the super abstract "feel the flow" gesture of the likes of Proko that relies heavily on referencing model.

Meanwhile several Japanese teachers recommend them like Hitokaku and Tadashi Osawa.

Pic related: An Asian artist using a stick figure with great results.

Just curious.

[Anonymous No.4442561]

you sound dumb. I have never heard a Western teacher even mention stick figures, positive or negative and even fewer who “feel the flow”.

[Anonymous No.4442562]

>>4442553
Prioritizing form = western
Prioritizing shape = Jap

The sooner you can learn this the sooner you can draw anime

[Anonymous No.4442564]

Because in the end personal gratification is not whats paying your bills and im not even talking about coom art

[Anonymous No.4442566]

>wonders
>post literally beg tier animushit

[Anonymous No.4442567]

>>4442561
>I have never heard a Western teacher even mention stick figures,

Hasn't hear of Loomis who does in Fun with pencil.

>NGMI

[Anonymous No.4442571]

>>4442561
You have no idea what you are talking about. Steve Huston for example explictly says stick figures are bad in his book.

[Anonymous No.4442573]

Actually, you don't need to rely on referencing a model to use gesture.

This is a really good question though and made me think. I guess this stick and paper torso method is useful for perspective, but it doesn't help you make a 3d form. It's good for generic cartoon and anime purposes. For extreme angles, you might use perspective boxes or block out the shape. They eyeballed the shape here completely.

Again, it's a good question and I'm not sure why two cultures are so different from each other in their approach to something systematic.

If you were biased against it, you could describe this method as both being like a stiff gesture and a sloppy construction. But maybe the Japanese see a useful middle ground in it, something easy for beginners to grasp, and put out anime content. Or, since it's mechanical and convenient, it could be useful in animating.

I'm just going off your post and assuming everything you said is correct about the japanese industry. I don't find this method very good, personally. It's mechanical.

[Anonymous No.4442574]

>>4442553
gesture is just people jerking themselves off pretending that they're not drawing stick figures desu

[Anonymous No.4442580]

>>4442573
Good post.

Well, I can't say it's 100 universal in Japan (not a weaboo), but lots of Japanese teachers recommend or use them

Another example.

[Anonymous No.4442581]

>>4442574
Anon.. you ironically opened my eyes.

[Anonymous No.4442582]

>>4442580
Weird, with that picture I guess they put some hard construction into the stick gesture, and put some gesturization into the form building. I wouldn't write it off.

[Anonymous No.4442587]

>>4442580
I just want to say that there's a lot of theory that goes into step 2 that would be lost if someone only drew stick figure mannequins as their main way of construction

[Anonymous No.4442588]

>>4442582
That's the whole idea anon. To put construction over the stick figures.

like john Buscema does here (one of the few westerners that doesn't hate stick figures):

[Anonymous No.4442591]

>>4442587
Not really. It's actually very simple. Stick figure first then put basic shapes over the stick figure, That's it.

That's what John Buscema recommends here.

Stick figures first, then use basic shapes.

[Anonymous No.4442592]

>>4442587
anatomy is lost on people who don't study anatomy; it's ambivilent about which step 1 you choose.

[Anonymous No.4442598]

>>>4442573
>I don't find this method very good, personally. It's mechanical.

I'm the oppsite. I find the flowy gestures and buzz words like "feel the energy" too abstract to be as useful.

[Anonymous No.4442601]

>>4442571
Watched hundreds of his and others’ videos - never mentioned it.
>but muh book
>no idea what I’m talking about.

Ok fucker.

[Anonymous No.4442603]

This has to be a trollpost. When someone says "don't draw stick figures" what they're referring to isn't what's in Loomis or any other book on drawing forms- including the "stick figures" in OP's post. They tend to refer to the stick figure symbol which children draw to represent a person.

What OP has posted is not a stick figure in that sense, but a set of shapes used to represent a gesture drawing which is the foundation of any drawing of a figure.

God fucking damn I'm too drunk to be explaining this shit to a bunch of autists.

[Anonymous No.4442604]

>>4442601

Steve Huston mentioned stick figures are bad on his book on page 49 of his book (picture included)

So yeah you brainlest, have no idea what you are talking about

[Anonymous No.4442605]

>>4442588
That book was largely for children and hobbyists. Like Fun with a Pencil.
Why do you keep mentioning it over and over (that is you right?)

[Anonymous No.4442607]

>>4442603
Brainlet NGMI detected. Then explain the picture of this post:

>>4442604

[Anonymous No.4442608]

>>4442598
Who fucking says ‘feel the energy’?

[Anonymous No.4442609]

>>4442553
>Japanese
ANIME WAS A MISTAKE
those writen symbols are clearly Hangul

[Anonymous No.4442610]

>>4442605
>That book was largely for children and hobbyists

Bullshit. I mean you re being misleading implying it wasn't meant to be fundational.

I mean Buscema says everyone at Marvel comics used the sick figugure method

[Anonymous No.4442613]

>>4442604
Why would i read his book?
It’s not a big fucking part of his teaching - at all - and not mentioned in any video I have seen of his. Now shoo. You’re tedious.

[Anonymous No.4442615]

>>4442608

[Anonymous No.4442617]

>>4442609
>Hangul
This faggot again.

[Anonymous No.4442618]

>>4442603

[Anonymous No.4442620]

>>4442615
Who is it?

[Anonymous No.4442623]

>>4442613

KYS

Why should I care what books you read? Not evern your mother gives a shit.

I proved you wrong. Deal with it.

[Anonymous No.4442627]

>>4442623
Hardly. Incidentally. At best.
You are goofy. Deal with it.

[Anonymous No.4442630]

>>4442627
>"hardly"
>I Literaly posted evidence.

Can't tell if trolling or just retarded, either way KYS.

[Anonymous No.4442639]

>>4442630
Your tiny little blurb in one book doesnt prove i “don’t know what Im talking about” if my point holds true for vast majority of cases fuckhead.
You really are a tedious schmuck. Now fucking shoo.

[Anonymous No.4442646]

>>4442639
I love how you try to downplay hard evidence because you ego can't accept you have infactno idwa what you are talking about.

Also pretty sure Steve Huston also talks about on his lectures...

>Now fucking shoo.
Make me, bitch.

[Anonymous No.4442648]

>>4442639
love how you try to downplay hard evidence because your fragile ego can't accept you have no idea what you are talking about.

Also pretty sure Steve Huston also talks about on his lectures... so you are 100% full of shit

>Now fucking shoo.
Make me, bitch.

[Anonymous No.4442656]

>>4442553
I've been a teachers aid for a dinky college figure drawing class for awhile now and this is something I've asked about before, funny enough. First thing to know is that the methods of teaching art are very different from the methods actually used in practice. Tons of "rules" you learn while studying will end up completely tossed if you get gud enough. Stick figures are a shortcut that plenty of pros use to great result. But it's just that, a shortcut.

So with that in mind, artists who aren't focused on teaching (or who dont follow the standard "curriculum" for whatever reason) will tell you stick figures are fine, because they are, if you know how to use them. Artists who specialize in teaching, which the west has a stronger emphasis on than the east, will knowingly "lie" that stick figures are bad because students who aren't ready to cheat dont need to try using them.

Sounds like a lot of hoopla to make over a little stick figure, I'm sure. But the absolute number 1 most important thing all beginner artists need to do is learn to think in volumetric shapes. Stick figures are the exact opposite of that. Using them as a crutch can unironically waste years of study time.

[Anonymous No.4442664]

>>4442562
Whats that even mean

[Anonymous No.4442675]

>>4442598
I agree, gesture as a whole is kind of abstract and frustrating to learn. And the phrasing is also strange, like "motion". None of the words used in gesture, including "gesture", "motion", "rhythm", are used in their strict definition, which leaves students like us in the dust a bit.

But the fact is, the results they get are incredibly lively, and will do a better job than this skeleton guide. Like I said before, it's more approachable to newer artists to do it the Japanese way, but long term? Western gesture is a more powerful approach when mastered.

You have to study and investigate until you can make sense of what these gesture lessons are trying to make you understand. Then when you do, you won't know how to really explain it better for the next guy.

"Gesture" is our best attempt at explaining intuition.

[Anonymous No.4442682]

>>4442562
This

[Anonymous No.4442774]

>>4442664
It means that he >>4442562 and this fellow >>4442682 are idiots.

[Anonymous No.4442946]

>>4442774
Except you're an idiot, because >>4442562
obviously meant it as a noun, not verb

[Anonymous No.4442968]

>>4442553
The problem with how much of art instruction has been done in the past century is that it does not show the actual, literal process of how professial artists work - but rather, they attempte to reverse engineer it into a conceptualized, easy to digest step by step format that is suitable for beginners reading a book. The "stick figure" is the quintessential product of this. When you watch video of how professional artists draw (including Buscema), you'll find that no one is drawing those neat stick figures with circle joints.

[Anonymous No.4442972]

>>4442553
>uses stick figure
>figure is stiff as fuck
OH NO NO NO

[Anonymous No.4442988]

>>4442946
I took a screen shot of the wrong one without looking, my fault. My point still stands, asshole.

[Anonymous No.4443014]

>>4442972
>figure is stiff as fuck
All manga and anime is stiff as fuck (and has weird feet). That’s it’s charm.

[Anonymous No.4443042]

>>4442562
but the fundies are still a must right?
if your top priority is to draw anime

[Anonymous No.4443047]

>>4442553
is that from a book, op?
can i have the source?

[Anonymous No.4443049]

>>4442968
Here's an example of John Buscema's actual rough work. No stick figures in sight

[Anonymous No.4443057]

>>4443049
Here's another preliminary by JB. This example clearly shows how impractical the use of stick figures would be in arranging a dynamic group of figures

[Anonymous No.4443112]

>>4443042
>>4442664
Both use fundies, it's a matter of something else.

When you draw something, it's two things simultaneously - the 3D object and its flat shape on your paper.
Both westerners and easterners are speaking the truth about what they see, they just choose to emphasize different things.

Westerners discovered perspective and achieved a higher technical level (Asians don't have an artist in their entire history half as good a draftsman as Bouguereau or Sargent), but unfortunately "appeal" doesn't care about technical proficiency, it only cares about flat, graphic statements. The most appealing is the art that acknowledges this.

[Anonymous No.4443120]

>>4442562
what do you think of people like krenz cushart?
he really focuses on the form and perspective yet draw really great anime

[Anonymous No.4443306]

>>4443049
>>4443057

Where are these from?

[Anonymous No.4443310]

>>4443049
>>4443057

Yes, but Buscema says this is an advanced method he says he used after mastering the basic shapes.

It’s not a secret, he actually says that’s another way after mastering stick figures.

[Anonymous No.4443323]

>>4442562
>>4443112

>citation needed af

Don’t make me go get images from hundreds of How to Draw Manga pdf’s showing how much they describe 3D form using cross contours, spheres, boxes, cylinders etc.
You’re making shit up or larping as knowledgable or something.
Also historically, they didnt have perspective but they did make beautiful sculpture, architecture, bridge building etc. They fully understood form.
>didnt have Bouguereau
Jesus Christ.

[Anonymous No.4443331]

>>4443323
Their 2D work was iconographic and composition/shape based until the 19th century but claiming that they inherently prioritize shape and this needs yo be understood to understand animu is bs.

[Anonymous No.4443334]

>>4442648
BTFO

[Anonymous No.4443345]

>>4443310
Absolute /beg/ here. Isn't the technique being advocated here the same as chicken scratching, which is a bad habit for aspiring hobbyists to acquire? Or is this a "learn the rules before you can break them" kind of thing?

[Anonymous No.4443350]

>>4443345

The later. Buscema makes clear this is an advanced technique in his book.

[Anonymous No.4443355]

>>4443310
>advanced
Guarantee you this is how virtually all good artists learned to draw. None of that cube nonsense.

[Anonymous No.4443364]

>>4443355
So you are saying Buscema is lying about the learning process and he skipped learning basic shapes and was already scribbling figures from the start ... I press X to doubt

[Anonymous No.4443383]

>>4443364
Most good artists have drawn since there were small children and were already quite capable before attending art school. What are the odds that they started off by constructing with cubes vs something closer to scribbling?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Buscema

>John Buscema showed an interest in drawing at an early age, copying comic strips such as Popeye.[5]

In short, yes I think Buscema is telling people to follow a different learning path than he himself did as a child and teenager, either because he forgot how he actually learned or because he thinks "eh just draw a lot" won't sell as many books.

[Anonymous No.4443386]

>>4443364
>he didnt draw whatever he liked, even if he wasnt good at it from the start
ngmi

[Anonymous No.4443387]

>>4443383
Dude I have yet to find a kid that doesn’t like to draw. That doesn’t mean he was scribbling masterpieces from the start.

In fact he had art education since he was in high school and then took night classes

[Anonymous No.4443501]

>>4443120
exactly, anime realism is best

[Anonymous No.4443514]

>>4442553
>Why are westerners fat
yes

[Anonymous No.4443540]

>>4443112
Thank you for explaining anon. Very informative

[Anonymous No.4443571]

>>4442553
I think this is a hot take, but I personally feel like your drawing process doesn't matter.

The only think you need to be worried about is the result, and if stick figures work for you, Then keep using them. Here is a speed of someone working off a Silhouette.

If you can properly convey the message to your viewer then who the fuck cares if you use a stick figure or not. Find what works for you and experiment. If something looks wrong, find out why. Art isn't a textbook subject

[Anonymous No.4443588]

>>4443571
Source?

[Anonymous No.4443609]

>>4443571
based and shammypilled
that's more or less how vilppu said he used to teach gesture, using a chamois instead of lines.

[Anonymous No.4443614]

>>4443588
Are you actually blind? It's in the fucking webm twice.

[Anonymous No.4443631]

>>4443571
Process 100% matters, even more so for learning too. If you have bad inefficient, backwards process you’ll waste time fixing all your mistakes, you won’t have a good house if you don’t have a foundation to build upon. Learn what the best teachers and artists do/have in common/recommend. In the end, the differences between watts, Huston, vilppu, proko, Han, etc are very minuscule, and when it comes down to it are just stylistic choices.

[Anonymous No.4443634]

>>4443571
This

[Anonymous No.4443660]

>>4443588
Sadly I don't have a source anon, I snatched it from the webm thread a few months back.

>>4443631
Eventually you will want to learn how to be more efficient. And you will take time to become a better artist. Unironically, art is about tools, not rules. Yes there are fundamentals that can help you learn, but if you hyperfixate on them too much, your technical skill will go up while your soul/charm will go down. It's all about finding a balance of both

[Anonymous No.4443722]

>>4443660
>tools, not rules
You can’t choose to use a tool if you don’t know it in the first place, you can’t possibly pretend like your process is remotely effective if you don’t know how to draw. There are things you need to learn and use in art, doesn’t matter if you want to or not. You can waste time doing what you want or you can take the time to learn how to do things well.
>soul/charm will go down
If your ideas can’t handle a good dose of training then they’re not worth doing in the first place.

If you enjoy stagnation and being like those deviant tier artists who never improve, then by all means use a weak and unstable process.

[Anonymous No.4443730]

>>4443722
Not that anon but You have no idea what yo are talking abot.

Post your work.

[Anonymous No.4443748]

>>4443722
But you have to learn how to use those tools. We are bound to have failures in arts. If this is what you consider “Wasting time“ then I am very concerned about you as an artist. It is not about pretending that your process is effective, but is about finding out what works for you. There are so many ways to go about drawing and limiting yourself to one way to grasp concepts will not help you as an artist.

Everyone learns art in a different way and If you want to improve you must experiment alongside with studying and observing.

[Anonymous No.4443752]

>>4443730
Go see what good artist do, you’ll soon see that they all teach, comparative measurement, plum lines, negative space, gesture, structure, rhythm, block in, layering, working large to small, not focusing on detail, squinting. If you actually took the time to seek higher learning you would have realized this. If you want to compete with the best then learn from the best. Everything I’ve said is fairly common knowledge though. You can’t start a drawing by rendering out an eye first and expect the piece to turn out well when you finish.

[Anonymous No.4443761]

>>4443752
Still waiting for you to post your work

[Anonymous No.4443763]

>>4443752
But we are talking about construction of the figure.

[Anonymous No.4443764]

>>4443748
Like I said before
Learn what the best teachers and artists do/have in common/recommend. In the end, the differences between watts, Huston, vilppu, proko, Han, etc are very minuscule, and when it comes down to it are just stylistic choices.

[Anonymous No.4443767]

>>4443763
What’s your point?

[Anonymous No.4443770]

>>4443764
You aren’t making any sense.

[Anonymous No.4443788]

>>4443770
What doesn’t make sense? The fact that doing whatever you want never produces good results? Please articulate yourself

[Anonymous No.4443825]

>>4443571

This /thread.

[Anonymous No.4444150]

>>4442588
even michael hampton uses the ovals and sticks tho, thats pretty traditional in imagination drawing, gestures are mostly from reference

[Anonymous No.4444260]

>>4443571
mirin'

[Anonymous No.4444273]

>>4442582
It's almost like all this shit is cummulative and worrying so much about learning only from one source or in a specific order is holding people back.

[Anonymous No.4444291]

>>4443345
You don't desserve knowledge

[Anonymous No.4444304]

>>4443722
You're just making up excuses for your eventual failure.
Drawing isn't hard or esoteric. All it takes is love. You losers want to paint it like the hardest shit ever because you don't love art, you don't enjoy drawing or learning, and know you're not gonna male it. But refuse to accept it's all your fault.

[Anonymous No.4444320]

>>4442604
>>4442603
>>4442613

Like this is good advice, it's very hard to translate form and gesture from a stick figure and it's just an unnecessarely hard way of approaching figure drawing.

But of course, cause we're in a shitty mongolian basket weaving website you GOTTA have the same process as your favourite H-Artist and every other way of approaching a similar problem is automatically wrong

[Anonymous No.4444328]

>>4443345
not chicken scratching
chicken scratching is when you draw multiple short lines without confidence to build a larger line

If you look carefully at >>4443310 You may notice the lines look rough and sketchy, but they were drawn with confidence and flow easily into each other (Look at the cape if you can't figure it out)

[Anonymous No.4444441]

>>4444304
I mean if you like doing whatever you want then by all means do whatever but don’t pretend like your process isn’t hindering your ability to learn and draw. I’m not saying drawing is the hardest thing ever but it requires learning from great artists/teachers, following their process and knowing what all great artists do the same. If you’re going to learn, might as well learn the proper methods and techniques. You can find plenty of Artists with bad process Just on this site and becomes most evident when they make no progress for years, to name a couple would be Brian, illastrat, chunbum, jimmy.

>all it takes is love
No, drawing and learning require passion, time, energy, and education.

[Anonymous No.4444617]

>>4443571
Vilppu has been teaching people how to draw with this method for decades though. Why are zoomers so fixated in reinventing the wheel with their "hot take"? I see this trend all the time across disciplines, even in things like programming.

[Anonymous No.4444663]

>>4444328
BASED forceposter

[Anonymous No.4444676]

>>4444617
What the fuck? Who said anything about reinventing the wheel? Why is discovering a way that works for you so you millennials? Is it because you never learned to be open minded and follow orders only?

[Anonymous No.4444693]

>>4444676
If you listened to your elders, you wouldn't have to run around in circles chasing your own tail trying to find your own super special new hot method that turned to just be a well-established decades old atelier practice, thus giving you more time and energy to focus on things in art that actually deserves personal experimentation.
Now, sit down.

[Anonymous No.4444709]

>>4444693
But I’m not running around in circles. Unlike you I actually enjoy drawing and learning new things about art. You talk as if me grinding vlippu and drawing a box all day long will automatically give me results with no more problems. It won’t. I’m still gonna have failures. And that is what art is, full of failures. So what is the bar, in experimenting outside of the textbook? Nothing. It might be a waste of time for you because you’re old and it’s too late for you to make it, but the more failures I have the more I learn and evolve into a better artist. You can continue to be bitter that I’m not worshiping your precious masters all you want. I’m tired of this “you must study and hardcore grind first before you can experiment!” Mentality ic has. Study alongside experiment. And most importantly analyze your work and see what you need to work on.

[Anonymous No.4444726]

>>4442553
>if the japanese do wonders with them
bro those are koreanrunes

[Anonymous No.4444735]

>>4444709
I am actually enjoying drawing, because I get to draw what I actually want without worrying about silly things like how to go about sketching, how to construct, anatomy and all other problems that has been solved decades ago. I can actually focus on the fun things that actually matters: storytelling, design, composition, world building. You know why? Because instead of chasing every new hot 5-minute "shortcut" on Twitter and YouTube, I just take it in all in one go from the old masters leaving me with all the freedom that I now get to have.

[Anonymous No.4444737]

>>4444735
I don’t know why you keep assuming that I am trying to take shortcuts, when that is clearly not what I have been expressing this whole time. Anyway, pyw please. I’m curious on what your art looks like since you have so much time

[Anonymous No.4444771]

>>4444441
All those artists are better tnan you and you know it. You have gai ed nothing by suffering through a stiff, "proper" learning process while they are actually confident enough to post their work.

You're walking backwards and don't even notice.

[Anonymous No.4444774]

>>4444709
You gonna make it.
>>4444735
You're not.

[Anonymous No.4444864]

>>4444735
>don't have to worry about how to construct, or anatomy
Pyw showing your effortless grasp of construction and anatomy.

[Anonymous No.4445038]

Anyone have any thoughts on learning the stick figure through motion capture skeletons

[Anonymous No.4445146]

>>4444709
>>4444735
The duality of man

[Anonymous No.4445156]

>>4444771
t. One of those 4 shitters

[Anonymous No.4445247]

>>4443323
>they didn't have perspective
The Chinese developed Oblique parallel perspective views (Pic right side) before the west, linear perspective however only came after Western contact with the East. The Japanese also had access to this knowledge and so used it on pictorial paintings and carpenter manuals.

[Anonymous No.4445281]

Stick figures are meant to get the proper line of motion and the gesture right.

They're cool to use.
Even vilppu uses stick figures when sketching the gesture of the drawing.

wtf are u retards talking about?

It's literally meant to be used to get the proportions and the gesture of the figure.
The issue with stiff figures is that you use straight lines, but all art pros use curved lines in their stick figures.

It's literally the first step when you make a 100% drawing from imagination.

You all have never drawn from imagination, so you argue about dumb shit.

[Anonymous No.4445474]

Should have figured. The fundiesfag talks a big game about how much he's learned and how easy drawing is when you follow the textbooks, and then when he's asked to pyw he runs away.

[Anonymous No.4445587]

>>4445474
Crabs love to fall back on “pyw” when they can’t win a debate...

[Anonymous No.4445602]

>>4445587
Dude said construction and anatomy were effortless for him, why should he not have to back that claim up with evidence?

[Anonymous No.4445606]

>>4445587
Delusional autist love to find excuses when back into a corner.

[Anonymous No.4445631]

>>4445281
I've read and seen most of Vilppu's material and I have not ever seen him draw a stick figure that is close to what is shown in OP. Post proof or shut up

[Anonymous No.4445655]

>>4445602
>>4445606
Nobody said anything about it being effortless... what’s being said is you need proper procedure and build up of a drawing to even begin to produce good work. There isn’t a single skill out there that doesn’t require some form of a fundamental procedure to become good at it, why would art be any different. People tend to revert to belittling and name calling when the can’t win a debate, grow up, look at the overwhelming evidence, why college and university is a horrible place to learn and good ateliers are always producing great results. Art is a language, and is almost if not impossible to learn any language well without good education and fundamental understanding of what you’re learning. So when someone says procedure doesn’t matter it shows a clear lack of understanding even the simplest of ideas within the foundation required to building a great work of art. You’re really just wasting time trying to reinvent the wheel when someone’s already figured out all the hard work for you.

[Anonymous No.4445688]

>>4445655
Here's (You):
>>4444735
>I get to draw what I actually want without worrying about silly things like how to go about sketching, how to construct, anatomy and all other problems that has been solved decades ago. I can actually focus on the fun things that actually matters: storytelling, design, composition, world building
Show us your work where you get to draw what you want and focus on storytelling and design without having to worry about silly things like construction and anatomy.

[Anonymous No.4445697]

>>4445602
>construction and anatomy were effortless for him
Which should be perfectly normal and not suspicious in the slightest if you're not a beginner any more. Absolute state of /ic/ begs.

[Anonymous No.4445699]

>>4445655
>I get to draw what I actually want without worrying about silly things like how to go about sketching, how to construct, anatomy and all other problems that has been solved decades ago.

You are so laughable. No one said anything about reinventing the wheel either if you wanna go that route. There are pleNty of artists who didn’t learn from the masters. Art isn’t a language, art is problem solving. Additionally you speak as if art and fundamentals are objective. It’s not. What’s bad art to you is good art to other people. Look at sakimichan. But does this mean you should cry “it’s my style”? No. I’ve said it a few times before and I will say it again. Study alongside experimentation, find what works for you. The end result is all that matters. There’s no secret textbook trick that makes your drawing perfect every time. The way vlippu breaks down construction and anatomy to me might not be as effective for me than Hampton. There is not one way to learn to draw art no matter how much you try to convince your fragile little ego. Everyone has a different way of grasping concepts and ideas

[Anonymous No.4445710]

>>4445697
Ok, yeah, there are lots of pros for whom basic sketching and anatomy are effortless. This guy is claiming to be one of them while also giving out very dogmatic advice. I want to see the proof.

[Anonymous No.4445866]

>>4445699
>>4445688
>I get to draw what I actually want without worrying about silly things like how to go about sketching, how to construct, anatomy and all other problems that has been solved decades ago. I can actually focus on the fun things that actually matters: storytelling, design, composition, world building

Not me, and don’t agree with what he said

>There are pleNty of artists who didn’t learn from the masters.
I’ve never seen great artists who didn’t study or learn from past or current masters. Please post ex.

>Art isn’t a language,
It’s visual communication, when done poorly people can’t tell what you were trying to communicate with your audience.

>Study alongside experimentation
Nothing wrong with this but there’s still a general procedure and tools all artists use to ensure they start off on the right foot, if you don’t know these fundamental steps of working large to small, working in stages, using plum lines/comparative measurement, gesture, structure, blockin, etc then you’re probably not going to get far.

>The way vlippu breaks down construction and anatomy to me might not be as effective for me than Hampton.

These are more about stylization of the process and not alteration of the process. The only real difference in most people’s process is based on what they need to focus on or where they plan on going. Generally speaking there isn’t a big difference between different artists when it comes to process.

> There is not one way to learn to draw art
There isn’t but there’s many incorrect ways to go about it and build bad habits or not progress. Self education is a horrible way to learn but some of us have no choice, without any structure or guidance from a good teacher you’ll most likely drown, which is why it’s important to find good education, find a good online school, and figure out the fundamental procedure and thought process to building up a good work of art.

[Anonymous No.4445895]

>>4445866
Define a “Great artist” because that is subjective.

>It’s visual communication
By consumption yeah, but making and learning art is problem solving

> The only real difference in most people’s process is based on what they need to focus on or where they plan on going.
> There isn’t but there’s many incorrect ways to go about it and build bad habits or not progress
> which is why it’s important to find good education, find a good online school, and figure out the fundamental procedure and thought process to building up a good work of art.

You just agreed with me. Art has many failures, there’s many ways to learn art, and you have to experiment to find the right results

[Anonymous No.4445970]

>>4444735
there's a reason why the Japanese manga industry towered over the shitty western comic industries combined

[Anonymous No.4445972]

>>4444735
He's right you know.

[Anonymous No.4445979]

>>4445895
>>4443571
>your drawing process doesn't matter.
This was what I was originally refuting, process matters, the end result is dictated by process, both mentally and physically, if your process is lazy and halfassed, unfocused, improper order of execution, your drawings almost always be bad and you’ll barely learn anything without understanding of the general procedure of the fundamental process of drawing and painting.

Great and masterful artists is quite objective when it comes to figure and portraiture, subject matter is subjective. Everyone agrees that repin, Michael Angelo, Rockwell, golden age illustrates are all great if not masters. Art isn’t all grey areas even though the modern and abstract art movements would make you believe otherwise.

[Anonymous No.4445992]

>>4445979
>process matters
https://youtu.be/D3P1VvESYvo

[Anonymous No.4446013]

>>4445992
Holy shit, he drew him without using any kind of gesture.

[Anonymous No.4446029]

>>4446013
Not sure if you're trolling or if you just haven't watched a lot of pros draw before. But yes, none of them actually use the meme methods that get shilled on /ic/.

[Anonymous No.4446042]

>>4445979
A circle is a circle if I draw it by hand, use the circle tool, or as ridiculous as this will sound trace a 3D model. Process doesn’t matter. Maybe it did back then where there weren’t many options, but in this day and age there’s way more to it

[Anonymous No.4446050]

>>4446029
So process doesn't matter :')

[Anonymous No.4446102]

>>4446042
>>4445992
If you can’t get your figure to fit on the page without cropping feet, head or making it too small, then your process is shit, if you’re unable to get proportions or likeness, then your process is shit, if you’re constantly fixing mistakes which should have been dealt with within the earlier stages of a drawing, then your process is shit, if your drawing is flat, then your process is shit, if your drawing is stiff, then your process is shit. In order to get an efficient process with good results you need to follow through the process, step by step, have a intuitive understanding of each step of the process you’re “skipping”. If you don’t take the time to build the skills you ultimately will probably never have them. You’re guaranteed to be on here 3,5,10 years from now bitching about how your working never gets better but alas, you only have yourself to blame.

Do you know what a blockin/layin is? Do you know the stages that are involved before rendering? Can you explain to me how to get accurate proportions and placement of your reference? Can you explain to me how you get a likeness? If you can’t tell me what is involved in getting these correct then you don’t know what’s involved in creating good work.
Before you whine about “ I don’t want to be a xerox” these have nothin to do with photocopying but everything to do with the placement of marks you want, where you want them, and how you want them, ie control

[Anonymous No.4446116]

>>4446102
So, you don't actually have a response when presented with an artist who draws well without following any part of your favorite process? You just go on more rants about how people better follow the process or else?

[Anonymous No.4446134]

>>4446116
> In order to get an efficient process with good results you need to follow through the process, step by step, have a intuitive understanding of each step of the process you’re “skipping”. If you don’t take the time to build the skills you ultimately will probably never have them

Learn to read, animefags are brain dead.

[Anonymous No.4446140]

>>4446134
It always comes out eventually that you people just hate anime.
Anyway I hear the "they actually just learned the process SO GOOD that they don't need to do it anymore" canard every time this argument happens, and frankly I have no reason to actually believe it, because there is no evidence for it. It amounts to you just asserting that everyone is secretly following your process anyway, even when they're clearly not. What evidence could possibly falsify your claims at that point?

[Anonymous No.4446147]

>>4446116
But are you that artist?

[Anonymous No.4446158]

>>4445992
>mangaka is able to draw a simple front view of his MC without any preamble
it's truly a mystery how this could happen, certainly has nothing to do with drawing it 6 million times before.

[Anonymous No.4446168]

>>4446158
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfKeQkXwGWk

Still not seeing any boxes.

[Anonymous No.4446176]

>>4446168
>another mangaka this time drawing heads of his main characters easily
HOW COULD THIS BE?

[Anonymous No.4446214]

>>4446102
There are tons of artists that constantly adjust their piece while drawing. People in the industry even. Your explanation is just silly. Process does not matter if you can produce good work. and if you are making mistakes, you need to learn.

> if you’re unable to get proportions or likeness, then your process is shit

No, your art is shit. keep drawing and analyze where you are going wrong and fix your problem.

[Anonymous No.4446240]

>>4446158
>>4446176
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbZUvWs-XyE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OCr8jbdafM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UFvCUtLCgk

so explain to me how drawing process matters?

[Anonymous No.4446252]

>>4446214
> if you can produce good work
So you agree process matters. Don’t take it so literally, everybody makes mistakes, but the ability to get proportions and likeness in any manner is your thought process of using triangulation, comparative measurement, negative space, plum lines, general measurement, getting accurate angles. If you don’t even know about these things then it’s unlikely you’ll ever get anything good on the page, these are things all artists use, even when drawing from imagination or drawing with no layin.

[Anonymous No.4446263]

>>4446240
when i look at these videos, am i just going to see more people experienced artists cranking out simple poses of things they've drawn hundreds of times before?

[Anonymous No.4446266]

>>4446252
But it doesn't. because you can achieve good results using any method

[Anonymous No.4446272]

>>4446263
What exactly is the point you're trying to make?

[Anonymous No.4446281]

>>4446263
that "simple pose" is on a steelbook case from a very popular game sooooo. you decide what todo with that

[Anonymous No.4446293]

>>4446272
roughly the other anon said i guess >>4446134
watching a professional cartoonist work tells you nothing about their full methods because so much of it has been internalized.

also pic related lmao

[Anonymous No.4446298]

>>4446281
what's this supposed to mean? i wasn't knocking the quality of any of this.

[Anonymous No.4446304]

>>4446293
so drawing well comes with experience?

[Anonymous No.4446308]

>>4446293
There is no "full method". What you see is what you get. They're just drawing.
Not sure why you called your file "definitely no experience". Obviously that guy has a ton of experience. Without knowing what you're arguing for though or what process you think is best it's hard to respond to you though.

[Anonymous No.4446309]

>>4446304
how have i suggested it's monocausal?

>>4446308
read the full filename retard

[Anonymous No.4446311]

>>4446309
Are you just defining any kind of loose sketching as gesture now?

[Anonymous No.4446400]

>>4446311
He's shitposting and doesn't draw. In case you haven't noticed academyfags never post their work because they don't work, they're roleplayers who want to be called "artists"without creating art just because they read some trivia.

[Anonymous No.4446631]

Principles matter. How you put that on the paper is up to you. If you can convincingly draw a figure without using some boxes and spheres then by all means go for it. It means you understand how the figure should look and can internalize much of the problem solving and draw freely.

If you still need boxes and such to visualize the figure, then keep using them if that's what you're comfortable with. You should at least study other artists to look for different ways to solve problems you're having, whether it be stiff poses or lacking volume. Eventually you'll be able to "unlearn" how to use them, like those mangaka in the videos.

[Anonymous No.4446633]

>>4445281
So where are his stick figures? Hello?

[Anonymous No.4446644]

>>4446400
go back to trolling /asg/

[Anonymous No.4446653]

>>4442553
No culture hates stick figures, you myopic dickhead. You prefer that aesthetic.

[Anonymous No.4446727]

>>4446653

>things a discussion about gesture is about "aesthethics"

NGMI

[Anonymous No.4447033]

>>4446102
This should become a sticky or copypasta.

[Anonymous No.4447123]

>>4447033
He literally doesn't even draw, he just faps to his "process".