When is it time to give it up?

[Anonymous No.4304014]

I know that I shouldn't expect to be good in just a year of drawing but it's not even that fact that makes me not want to continue drawing.
It's the fact that I find it extremely difficult of picking up the pencil and making another shit drawing. The feeling of sitting down and grinding through a bunch of drawings doesn't really seem worth it anymore too.
During the pain of making something that looks absolutely like shit, I end up thinking about the plethora of other skills I could be learning instead of grinding through yet another head drawing in the hopes of maybe being good enough to move onto something else.
>When is it time to just move on and give it up?
Am I just being a quitter? I don't know what to do anons... :(

[Anonymous No.4304015]

>>4304014
>inb4 pyw

[Anonymous No.4304021]

>>4304014
Maybe you're just burned out.
How long did you draw every day for the last month or so?
Maybe dial it down a bit and see if that makes picking up the pencil easier.

[Anonymous No.4304032]

>baww thread

[Anonymous No.4304036]

>>4304014

[Anonymous No.4304037]

>When is it time to give it up?
When you make threads like these.

[Anonymous No.4304039]

It sounds like you just need to man up and learn some discipline.

>I end up thinking about the plethora of other skills I could be learning instead
Grass is always greener, etc.

>maybe being good enough to move onto something else.
You don't just move onto something else. Art doesn't work like that. You'll always be revisiting concepts

[Anonymous No.4304044]

>>4304021
This is probably true. I did burn myself out recently and I might not have gotten over it completely yet.

>>4304036
I'll check this book out, thanks!

>>4304039
People always say that but I don't see professional artists grinding Loomis Heads anymore. There comes a point when the grinding stops and you can actually sit down and draw for real. Or at least, that's how I see it.
I could be wrong though. Maybe professional artists do grind Loomis heads for hours a day.

[Anonymous No.4304046]

>>4304044
I always see professionals going back to fundamental studies like "grinding" heads, but they're not grinding loomis heads. And the purpose of their study is most probably be very different from yours. They're focusing on different stuff. There's always something new to learn.

[Anonymous No.4304048]

>>4304015
how long have u even been drawing for a year?? You do know it takes many years to get good right?

[Anonymous No.4304049]

https://youtu.be/SlCRfTmBSGs

[Anonymous No.4304050]

>>4304015
How long have you been drawing for? Seems like you've been at it for like a year or 2. You do know it takes a long time to get good right?

[Anonymous No.4304054]

>>4304014
If you are already giving up after 1 year you are ngmi

[Anonymous No.4304058]

>>4304049
based

[Anonymous No.4304061]

Tfw in the exact situation but i dont even want to bother to start, ive been doodling on and off for a long time but never actually studied and i always say "Why bother?"

[Anonymous No.4304064]

>>4304014
I get the same feeling, not that I'm going to give up, I just try and push myself to do more, I make art because I enjoy it, I dont care about making a lot of money or become famous, if I can make some decent money on the side thats fine, making art is more like therapy to me. But I do want to become a lot better though

Why does it take so long?!

[Anonymous No.4304068]

OMG what a whiny little baby, just draw already piece of shit.

[Anonymous No.4304070]

>>4304068
based

[Anonymous No.4304074]

>>4304014
You're insulting you fucking loser. I've been in this road for more than TEN YEARS. It's a long way to the top if you wanna rock and roll.

If you need our opinion to make a decision then just give up already. You don't have it.

[Anonymous No.4304080]

>>4304074
pyw

[Anonymous No.4304103]

Also reminder that it doesn't really matter how good you are in art, as long as you're competent and create works that people like, you can make it.

[Anonymous No.4304118]

>>4304080
Just assume my work is shit. It's not but it makes no difference, I'll keep on going for 10 more years if I need to.

[Anonymous No.4304120]

>>4304118
I genuinely wanted to see it, no crabs.

[Anonymous No.4304125]

>>4304118
>It's not but it makes no difference
imagine being this much of a stupid stinky nigger lmao
go home and cry about why people don't like your little drawings oooh that's so sad here's a little napkin you little baby.
go on now and scribble your little faggoty ass fanart and post it on twitter where you get 2 pity likes from your parents you little gaynigger.
Fucking faggot ass nigger.
Nigger ass faggot.
Fuck you.

[Anonymous No.4304126]

>>4304014
You're done when you're done. I will never be done until my hands are both crippled beyond the ability of use.

[Anonymous No.4304141]

>>4304120

I started improving significantly recently cause of adhd meds. Regardless of that, I didn't give up in ten years of improving very slowly, and I get better every day.

[Anonymous No.4304143]

>>4304046
Yea, I see Peter Han still does simple line exercises as warmups. But I want to know when I'll be at the point when those things, like Loomis heads, are merely warmups and not the main part of my day.

>>4304049
Haha, for sure. Hard to do so while burned out though. I'll still push through it, though.

>>4304050
Not exactly. I see varying degrees of improvement across different artists. Some artists say it took 10 years to get good while other say they've been drawing for the exact amount of time and are actually worst than me. I don't really think the amount of years is a good factor unless you also include the amount of time daily as well.

>>4304054
Maybe. But I never intended on being a professional. I just want to draw things that are in my head because I think that's pretty cool.

>>4304061
I wished I had more fun with art in the beginning. I rushed into learning how to draw because I wanted to learn this 'skill' like a few other skills I've picked up. I guess I was looking at it the wrong way.

>>4304064
We're pretty much on the same boat then. I don't really plan on giving up but the other alternatives make me not want to pursue drawing because of the very minimal amount of benefits compared to other skills--and the fact that I'm an adult already, which makes me worried about my future. At worst, I'll probably just draw for an hour or so a day while doing something else that I enjoy.

>>4304068
Tried. Didn't work for me.

>>4304074
I'm not interested in getting to the "top" just to be able to draw well. I'm hoping how other anons cope. I think it's pretty arrogant to think that you have it all figured out and that you can't learn from other people.

>>4304103
True. But still, I want to do it because it looks fun. It's just not fun now that I'm terrible at it.

>>4304118
I'm curious what your work looks like after 10 years. I posted mine. I'm sure that after 10 whole years, my drawing is far below whatever baseline you are looking for.

[Anonymous No.4304144]

>>4304141
BTW this is a part of a bigger work that is supposed to look disturbing.

[Anonymous No.4304148]

>>4304014
My 2 cents is the same as everyone elses: stop being a faggot.
Now I'll elaborate: I am just sitting down to learn to draw but i've been, and i am, where you are but on a different field (I've been working on a programming project for years with barely anything to show for it). Like you I stop because i dont feel like programming because it gets me nowhere, but every time i sit my ass down and program for a few hours i make something that'll make me feel happier, even if only for a bit, and also an idiot for not doing this sooner. Yeah it's hard, hard to sit down, hard to mash the keyboard, hard to look for hours at mistakes to fix, but at the end of the day you either progress or you dont. It's that simple. Can't really give drawing related adivce since iam a newfag in that regard, but if you want to draw something specifically (manga, webcomic, furry commisions) you can try focusing on that and figure out what you need for that and practice with that thing in mind.
There's a famous pianist guy who said he only practices an hour a day, but for that hour it's only piano and nothing exists. So there's also that. If you can sit down and concentrate on that for a single hour a day you're already going ahead of the curve.

[Anonymous No.4304154]

>>4304126
By being finished, I mean with the daily grind of exercises. Not with actually drawing...

>>4304141
>>4304144
Ok.

>>4304148
I think it may just be burnout. I do the same as you and sit down and force myself to draw despite not really feeling like doing so at the moment. The problem is, I lack this "flow" or "zone" or whatever it is that gets you interested or invested in what you are doing after 10-30 minutes of drawing. Every new sketch I make is another stab at my stomach. The more I draw, the more difficult it is to continue. Eventually, I have to stop when that frustration turns into anger.

[Anonymous No.4304155]

>>4304141
>>4304120
Right now I'm working on this one.

[Anonymous No.4304159]

>>4304144
I like it anon you already created your style, even tho it isn't my kind of art you are doing good keep at it.

[Anonymous No.4304163]

>>4304159
Thank you. I'm still working on it, it's gonna get better.

[Anonymous No.4304167]

>>4304154
>Every new sketch I make is another stab at my stomach. The more I draw, the more difficult it is to continue. Eventually, I have to stop when that frustration turns into anger.
Yeah i know this feel. Do you do anything with your art besides practicing? Honestly every bit of success can be really helpful with this.

[Anonymous No.4304170]

>>4304163
see I told you no crabs, do you have an instagram or anything like that?

[Anonymous No.4304172]

>>4304014
Mate just keep trying. Art is a long long process. What exactly were you practicing and for how long a day? How much did you do it for fun?

[Anonymous No.4304173]

>>4304141
>>4304155
It's not bad, just not the type of thing I would enjoy looking at.

[Anonymous No.4304174]

>>4304170
insta: hbsvictor

[Anonymous No.4304176]

>>4304155
Face looks flat.

[Anonymous No.4304182]

>>4304173
Thank you. Can you explain why?

[Anonymous No.4304183]

>>4304141
>>4304155
>>4304174
Not to sound like a crab or an asshole, but were you serious when you said 10 years?
Did you take a lot of breaks during those 10 years?
Again, not to be a dick, genuinely curious.
I'm a /beg/ so I kind of want an approximation of what my art would look like 10 years from now.

[Anonymous No.4304188]

>>4304176
Usually the faces I do in this style get stuck in uncanny valley. I'm looking for the sweet spot.

[Anonymous No.4304190]

>>4304167
Not exactly, which is probably why I don't see much use in it.
Originally, I got into it to create characters for Visual Novels, since I liked writing more than drawing, but I wanted to be able to draw the characters that I wanted without the hassle of dealing with other artists that may still not create exactly what I wanted which is why I pursued it myself.
One resolution was to work on the novel anyway, despite how shitty I still am because at least I am not grinding practice stuff all day.
Just a thought.
I'm not going to quit drawing, I'm just tired of feeling frustrated all the time.
But I'm happy that at least someone else can relate. It seems that most people on here don't really know what this feeling is like.

>>4304172
I try to spend a minimum of 3 hours a day but like the situations I mentioned earlier (me getting far too frustrated), I end up only getting to an hour sometimes.
I don't really draw for fun which is probably why I am in this position in the first place.
I figured starting that Visual Novel I always wanted to write would make me want to learn how to draw rather than forcing myself to learn because I 'have' to get good for some arbitrary reason.

[Anonymous No.4304193]

>>4304143
wait what? didn't you draw this?>>4304015

isn't this like /beg lvl ?

[Anonymous No.4304194]

>>4304183
I have ADHD so it was very hard for me to focus on "boring theory" which makes a huge difference, for a few years I worked doing something else and I also used to go out and spend time with women a lot.

[Anonymous No.4304196]

>>4304182
I think it comes down to art style.

[Anonymous No.4304199]

>>4304183
Personally I started improving a lot by learning the names of the muscles and bones, which I couldn't do without meds.

[Anonymous No.4304200]

>>4304193
I'm guessing you're talking about the
>I wished I had more fun with art in the beginning.
part of the post?
Beginning here not meaning /beg/ but more the first half of the time I spent drawing.
I rushed into drawing doing 12 hour days and eventually burned myself out after a few months.
What I probably should have done instead was to have fun with it in the beginning and draw what I wanted instead of grinding a bunch of crap.
Not sure if this is intended to be a crab or to be genuine but I'll give you attention for now.

[Anonymous No.4304201]

>>4304190
What did you practice though? The face, fundamantals? It’s ok to practice but what exactly were you practicing

[Anonymous No.4304205]

>>4304201
I started with learning the anatomy of the skull and then drawing it a couple times and then with the anatomy of the face and then drawing that a couple times.
Then I moved onto about 6-7 head drawing courses including Vilppu, Proko, Huston.
After that I drew a couple hundred heads but I didn't see much improvement using Huston's method.
I started to get frustrated so I came on here and people said to practice Loomis Heads. So I did that. I started to see some improvement after that but I think I started to stagnate.
Ever since then, I've been trying different courses on how to draw the head but I still can't seem to improve.
Though the worst part is that my drawings look even worst when I'm frustrated so I obviously have to deal with that first before anything.

[Anonymous No.4304210]

>>4304194
>>4304199
Thanks for replying.
I already know most of the muscles and bones in the human body by name, the difficulty is actually drawing them in 3D instead of just flat 2D shapes.

[Anonymous No.4304211]

>>4304014
idk man i got through that awkward stage by dunning-krugerpilling to keep me motivated while posting my work to get critique. trick yourself into becoming a narcissist or something and you'll enjoy the process much more.

[Anonymous No.4304214]

>>4304015
You first have to put some work into your drawings before you quit. This sketch is way too simple. You are not even trying

[Anonymous No.4304215]

>>4304205
Though the worst part is that my drawings look even worst when I'm frustrated so I obviously have to deal with that first before anything.
This can lead you into a circular logic
> feeling frustrated when drawing
> not drawing as much
> skills will degrade
> try to draw again, it'll look worse
> get more frustrated.
If you only want to do characters for VN stuff, which is a very specific thing, then try and get criticism from artists who do the same. People are shitty when it comes to looking critically at their own work.

[Anonymous No.4304217]

>>4304210
Draw from reference. You are drawing from reference right? You're not just doing everything from imagination right?
There are lots of pictures out there of 3D stuff. You can just draw it and not worry about how to make it look 3D, it already looks 3D.

[Anonymous No.4304218]

>>4304210
Practice imagining 3d objects in space while drawing them with as few lines as possible, takes some time but eventually you forget it's a blank canvas and start drawing exactly what you imagine, then you'll realize it all depends on your mind.

[Anonymous No.4304220]

>>4304205
Firstly I wanted to say I have ADHD and I get your struggle 100% but you really have to keep pushing. You might have done these things already but I think you should firstly find one method and stick with that one for a bit. Since you have ADHD focusing on all of those methods to draw one thing might do more harm than good. 6-7 head drawing courses seems a bit much for me. Another thing is you’re symbol drawing. In the picture you showed, I’m not sure if it’s for a style or whatever, but I can look at that and tell maybe you need some more life drawing. They teach you to draw heads but drawing from life will make you improve no doubt. Also draw from other artists. If you see a loomis drawing, copy it. What loomis books have you read? There’s a pdf I can link for you that has all of them.

[Anonymous No.4304222]

>>4304205
The problem is that all those courses are basically memes and any head drawing "method" is also a meme.
Just copy a lot of art that you like and do what they do. I REALLY hope those "couple hundred heads" weren't from imagination because as a /beg/ you should be copying good artists as often as you draw from imagination, if not more.

[Anonymous No.4304223]

>>4304210
Also, when you draw from reference, don't copy, make your own body based on your knowledge of anatomy. You put the objects of your mind in the same place of the ones of the reference, don't copy what you see.

[Anonymous No.4304226]

>>4304205
Maybe that's why you're not having fun, and why you're frustrated. Maybe try forgetting about all those courses and books for a bit. I'd go even as far as to say you don't need them to improve. It seems they're not working out for you, but whether you want to keep at it is up to you. Draw from imagination, draw for fun, draw whatever you want. Study whatever you feel like studying. Studying doesn't have to be unfun. Come up with your own methods, experiment. Studying doesn't have to be unfun mindless grind. Actually, you shouldn't keep a hard line between studying and drawing whatever for fun.
Make it enjoyable and don't force yourself unless you absolutely have to.

[Anonymous No.4304233]

>>4304200
So you've been drawing around a year. Drew 12 hrs a day yada yada, study proko, vilppu loomis, anatomy. OK. Just what do you expect to get from just a year of drawing? There are people that have been drawing for 15x that amount, and are still not happy. You're sounding really retarded saying you want to quit after being at it for just a year. Although I personally think art is for lazy fucking hacks that just want to stay home and leech off their parents. I do also think it's pretty hard to be consistent and actually "good". It takes a lot more time than you'd think anon. There are many times where you'll face disappointments, but if you keep drawing I believe you'll eventually get somewhere you'll be quite happy with.

[Anonymous No.4304239]

>>4304014
Another thing I can tell you aren’t doing is looking at what’s wrong with what you drew. You draw a face. Let’s say you hate the ears. Start working on ears as an individual feature and incorporate what you learn about it into your art. It just seems like you’ve been drawing just to draw and aren’t being self critical enough. Another thing is that like I said it takes a long time. Don’t think of art as “I have to be good by x point” just compare yourself to yourself from yesterday or even a week ago to see your slight improvement

[Anonymous No.4304258]

>>4304211
I think I over-analyzed so much that I can't even trick myself into thinking that I may be good, I know I'm complete and utter trash at drawing.

>>4304214
I tried my hardest on this sketch and had no idea what to do with it after this. You wouldn't understand though since you are filled with the Curse of Knowledge right now. I look back at the drawings I made the first few days when I started drawing and despite trying my hardest, it seems like I didn't try at all. The better you get, the more it seems like you tried.

>>4304215
That's a good idea, I didn't think of that.

>>4304217
This one was from imagination. All I did before this was draw from reference.

>>4304218
I do that. I can literally put wrapping lines around the entire head while I'm drawing and it will still end up looking like shit.

>>4304220
I'm drawing from life as much as possible. I only recently started to copy other artists. I realized that drawing from life actually made my drawings look even more flat and like symbol drawings because I wasn't exactly sure how to simplify or stylize what I was drawing. The only way you can really draw exactly what you see if you plan on rendering it exactly, which I don't.
I just want to get good at general drawing.

>>4304222
They weren't from imagination. I only draw from imagination when I do a DAD or something--unless I get lazy then I just do a copy of another artist.
I'll probably do what you said and start just copying a lot of other artists since before this, all I did was draw from life--which doesn't really seem to be helping.

>>4304223
That's a hard pill I had to swallow. I'm trying but I think that I might need to copy other artists so that I know what exactly I can simplify.

>>4304226
Thank you! That's probably a good idea. I feel trapped with all these courses and the idea of having to trudge through another drawing is mind-numbing. Maybe I should just draw for fun, instead.

[Anonymous No.4304262]

>>4304233
You have a pretty ignorant bias on artists and I'm sure that probably stems into other areas as well.
I've heard of people getting good at drawing in just 6 months at the least and others taking 2-3 years.
Others say it takes "10 years" but I doubt it. Not to mention that people that post their work after 10 years is either worst than mine or way beyond what I even care to study.

[Anonymous No.4304264]

>>4304258
>all I did was draw from life--which doesn't really seem to be helping.
Drawing from life is pretty damn overrated if your goal is to draw any sort of stylized art. Being able to draw an object is only the beginning, the real challenge is being able to abstract, simplify, stylize, make it MORE visually appealing and beautiful than what it is in reality. Good artists have already solved these problems and you can progress much faster by learning how they did it.

[Anonymous No.4304265]

>>4304262
People who say it takes 10 years are retarded and haven't realized it yet.

[Anonymous No.4304269]

>>4304239
I get into the habit of mindlessly drawing which is probably my biggest downfall.
I think it would probably benefit me if I were to study just parts of the face rather than trying to draw it all at once. If I did it by part, I wouldn't be frustrated for too long. But that's just a thought.

[Anonymous No.4304270]

>>4304258
Don't you have any favorite artists you want to emulate? Any direction? Any goals you want to reach?

[Anonymous No.4304274]

okay faggot, listen here, im gonna tell you my experience about it. There was a time when i felt like you. Then, I stopped drawing for like 6 months. However, i didnt stop paying attention to stuff around me, and the basic geometry that makes up that stuff. I paid attention to figure of bodies, faces, perspective of buildings and the streets i walked around. I paid special attention to the colors of the sky, skin, and I kept thinking "what colors do i need to mix to get this color?, stuff like that. Then, I started to draw again, and i realized Id learned a lot only by observation.

So stop whining, take a break, but dont stop thinking about drawing. Always keep it in mind, and then when you feel ready, get back at it. Im not saying that suddenly you will achieve magnificent quality, but im saying that the psychologic aspect of drawing is very important.

[Anonymous No.4304277]

>>4304264
So I have to learn how to draw it realistically before being able to stylize. You kind of contradicted yourself by saying that drawing from life is over-rated and then saying that being able to draw an object is only the beginning.
Should I try to copy more from artists or draw from life more?

>>4304265
I think that people who say this also believe in the 10,000 hour rule which is a pretty laughable myth at this point. Some skills require less than 10,000 hours and others require more than 10,000 hours. But the biggest factor is how far you want to go with that skill.
For the level that I want to get to, I highly doubt that it should take 10,000 hours.

[Anonymous No.4304280]

>>4304270
My only goal is to be able to draw characters for Visual Novels.
I would say Kim Jung Gi, but I like him more because of the fact that he draws more than humanly possible rather than for his drawings.

>>4304274
That's a pretty good idea. I don't think I'll completely quit drawing, I just won't be forcing myself to draw for more than an hour or two a day.

[Anonymous No.4304287]

>>4304280
Then it seems you don't have any clear goals or influences. Work to correct that. I'll assure you it'll motivate you a lot and give you clear goals to work for.

[Anonymous No.4304288]

>>4304280
>I don't think I'll completely quit drawing, I just won't be forcing myself to draw for more than an hour or two a day.
Do recreational drawing. Take some VN artwork and trace it, or draw some art for some of your favorite VNs. It wont make you feel like shit(hopefully) but it'll still keep you in shape.

[Anonymous No.4304297]

>>4304277
Both. Copy from artists and from life, a decent amount of each. I personally want to stylize a little later down the line and am mostly focused on realism so I draw from life and other artists a lot. I’m working on humans so I look at loomis and other artists to see how they go about it and mimic their process but I also look at pictures of people and draw those from life to get better at the overall process.

[Anonymous No.4304305]

>>4304277
Also drawing from life isn’t overrated idk what that person is talking about. To break the rules you have to know them so if you want to stylize art and make things more appealing than they actually are then you 100% have to draw a lot from life to learn how to manipulate things in the first place

[Anonymous No.4304310]

>>4304014
jesus fucking christ another one of these

honestly pathetic

[Anonymous No.4304318]

>>4304287
Will do!

>>4304288
I used to trace before and I think I improved a bit. Maybe tracing will break me out of my stagnation, who knows? I guess I'll just have to try it and see.

>>4304297
Looking at how other artists draw from life would probably help too, thanks.

>>4304305
But shouldn't you know how to stylize to know what to stylize? It feel like a catch-22. If I keep drawing from life, how am I supposed to know what I'm supposed to stylize. But I can't just copy other artists since I have to draw from life for some reason.

>>4304310
Good Afternoon.

[Anonymous No.4304326]

>>4304262
Oh please do show me an example of someone who is a complete beginner getting good in 6 months. Even kim jung gi drew 27 years before he got his first commission.

[Anonymous No.4304329]

>>4304326
Didn't Sinix get good at drawing after 6 months?
I know he wasn't that bad in the beginning but it makes me wonder how truthful those "it took me 10 years to get good at drawing" statements are.

[Anonymous No.4304362]

>>4304329
months, years are useless

most people I know got decent after about ~3000-3500 hours. average pro level at 5000-6000

[Anonymous No.4304375]

Meh, OP. My goal is basically drawing as a hobby and git good enough to draw anons their waifu in the /a/ drawthreads, nothing else. If you never had a goal then why draw in the first place.

[Anonymous No.4304383]

>>4304014
Quit when you've analyzed your problem and decided it's something you legitimately can't overcome. I also have the feeling of wanting to quit for every second I spend drawing but I've decided not to quit bc I think my problem, my inability to apply fundamentals and my ability to draw what I actually see, can be overcome. I'm drawing my conclusion based on the fact that there are so many human beings who have had the same problem as me and have been able to become good at drawing. But with all this said, if I continue to make the same mistakes and not analyze them correctly for a long enough period of time, I'll consider myself a lost cause and just quit

[Anonymous No.4304391]

>>4304258
>I tried my hardest on this sketch and had no idea what to do with it after this. You wouldn't understand though since you are filled with the Curse of Knowledge right now. I look back at the drawings I made the first few days when I started drawing and despite trying my hardest, it seems like I didn't try at all. The better you get, the more it seems like you tried.
Just copy from photos. Simply draw what you see. You learn through this too.

[Anonymous No.4304596]

>>4304014

To get into this field of work you have to sort of become a masochist. You're gonna make a ton of shitty work for a long time. A really long fucking time.

[Anonymous No.4304618]

>>4304596
It really depends on how long you've studied art. Even if you never touched a pen, you can learn fairly quickly if you are smart and studied other peoples works a lot.

[Anonymous No.4304661]

>>4304280

Have you tried copying the work of Sugina Miki? She's one of the best artists in the Visual Novel medium in my opinion. She has good understanding of the fundamentals, and has a lot of art you can learn from. I am especially fond of her compositions.

[Anonymous No.4304684]

>>4304014
Never

[Anonymous No.4304691]

>>4304014
If your feeling down go straight to drawabox.com and remember if you are not having fun while drawing or you just wanna be the best you’ll never see improvement

[Anonymous No.4304693]

>>4304362
How to pull numbers out of your ass: anon on /ic styleT

[Anonymous No.4304897]

>>4304014
Eh, what's the point of learning to draw if all the normies want is anime and porn?
Somebody just end my fucking suffering.

[Anonymous No.4304901]

>>4304897
Post your anime and porn drawings

[Anonymous No.4304904]

>>4304901
i have none

[Anonymous No.4304925]

>>4304014
>>4304015
It's not about time, it's about effort, intention, and learning how to truly "see". You can't just grind through drawings without actively thinking about what you're doing, how to improve, how to recognize mistakes, and what the real world truly looks like. If you're struggling with something, don't avoid it, sit down and hammer away at it until it looks good, then move on to the next part you're struggling with. Before long you'll realize you've improved overall as you begin to apply the techniques you've learned fixing one thing to all other areas of your work.

[Anonymous No.4304999]

>>4304362
>>4304693
Yea I'm not too sure about those numbers. I did count the exact amount of hours I drew for the first few months but then it got a bit restricting. I don't think anyone can accurately measure how long it really takes to get good because there are way too many factors to take into considerations.

>>4304383
I think I was just extremely frustrated. It's kind of a cycle to be honest.
Draw, Frustration, Push Through, More Frustration, Push Through, Want to Quit, Draw, Extreme Frustration, Put the Wacom Tablet Away as if I'm Really Going to Quit Drawing, and then the next day I take it back out wondering what the hell was I thinking.

>>4304391
I've been trying that a lot but it hasn't really been helping. I think copying someone else's style is better since you know exactly what to draw rather than having to guess and get frustrated. Though I am still going to learn the anatomy first, of course, I just don't really care about drawing it realistically anymore.

>>4304596
Not interested in the "field" but I see what you mean.

>>4304618
I only drew from photographs and never studied other people's work which is probably the biggest reason why I feel like I'm not improving.

>>4304661
No but thank you for the suggestion. I'll check her out.

>>4304684
True.

>>4304691
I've done DAB and Peter Han's exercises so many times I can do them in my sleep. I do them everyday as a warmup.

[Anonymous No.4305006]

>>4304036
>Recommending pop sci books made by pseuds
Please don't lead baby anons down this path

[Anonymous No.4305019]

>>4305006
I downloaded it and deleted it the second I saw that the author was a marketer. Fuck marketers. I don’t trust those flaky cunts.

[Anonymous No.4305112]

>>4304693
all three people that I know and work in the industry used an app called procrastitracker, it's not asspull.

i've seen similar mileage for vidya as well. of course the big disclaimer is most of these hours are dedicated practice and not doodling random crap doing whatever.

[Anonymous No.4305122]

You're either born with talent or you aren't.

[Anonymous No.4305124]

>>4305019
>>4305006
The author might be a faggot but his advice is pretty good.

[Anonymous No.4305129]

>>4305112
I'm impressed by their savvy use of practice tracking. You have any idea how they managed their practice during this time? Like any particular progression, time blocking, exercise choice, etc?

[Anonymous No.4305486]

>>4305006
>>4305019
>>4305124
I wouldn't trust a marketer either, desu. Even if it is good advice. There are just so many books out there I don't really see a reason through read through one entire bad book just to get a small bit of information when there are others that I can get much more out of.

>>4305112
>>4305129
I don't really think they did this as much as you think. Nor would it really be that accurate unless they turn it on literally everytime they're about to draw and have been doing so since the first day they ever started drawing--which is highly unlikely.

>>4305122
Maybe. But I think talent is really only useful for determining whether you make it in the industry or not. And since I'm not interested in the industry, it doesn't really matter to me.
Though I think talent is more of a psychological behaviour towards something than some innate ability to do something.
Those with more talent in drawing tend to spend more time in it because they enjoy it more than those less talented. If you enjoy something, you learn quicker and with less frustration.
That's what I've experienced in studying the 2 or 3 other skills I've tried to teach myself in the past. Unlike those other skills, I don't particularly like drawing which is why it is more difficult for me to improve. But I think that has to do with more of the way I approach drawing than it does have to do with the fact that it "just isn't for me."

[Anonymous No.4305491]

>>4305486
Hold on wtf.
I wrote "desu" and it auto-corrected to "desu"???????

[Anonymous No.4305492]

>>4305491
WHAT????
T B H
Why is "to be honest" being auto-corrected to "DESU"??????

[Anonymous No.4305494]

>>4305492
newfaggot stop sperging

[Anonymous No.4305498]

>>4305494
explain
>t b h --> desu

[Anonymous No.4305529]

Lmao at these people wanting to be gods at drawing but not wanting to suck for 3-5 years and grind with nothing to gain.

Go learn programming or something dude.

[Anonymous No.4305588]

>>4305529
>You’re projecting.
If I could change the title of the post, it would lean closer to how to deal with frustration while drawing. Wanting to quit is just one of the side-effects of frustration.

[Anonymous No.4305590]

>>4305006
>>4305019
>>4305486
post a better book

[Anonymous No.4305597]

>>4305588
You know how when you're learning music, you learn some really simple shit like TWINKLE TWINKLE LITTLE STAR? You feel joy and think "HOLY SHIT I CAN PLAY SOMETHING".

If you can't feel this when you draw something, then I'm sad to say that drawing isn't for you. You're not drawing because you like drawing, maybe you like art though.

Yesterday I drew some foxes, I learned a lot from drawing foxes and why kemonomimi's are drawn the way they are from drawing foxes. I felt really good even though not all of my foxes were pretty and I'm stoked about drawing more animals today.

Seriously, why force yourself to go through all that if you don't like doing it? Do you want to prove something to someone? Do you want status (lol)?

[Anonymous No.4305603]

Why learn programming when you'll never be those silicon valley guys who create their own startup and get millions in venture capital for some obscure product riddled with problems? You'll just be another geek in a cubicle--but hey, at least the pay is decent enough to put 70% towards rent on Greenbergs $8600/month studio apartment near googles HQ!

At least with art you have a chance to overtake a market. And because art is harder than programming you'll have the good feel that you truly have a hard skill.

[Anonymous No.4305604]

>>4305603
>art is harder than programming

haha

[Anonymous No.4305605]

>>4305597
Not him, but I think a big reason why I draw is simply because I have nothing better to do. Constantly just watching twitch streams just becomes boring after a while. You need something to do, otherwise you go crazy after a while (I at least), and drawing has always been a good thing for this to me, because I love art and at least you are somewhat productive when drawing.

[Anonymous No.4305606]

>>4305604
It is.

[Anonymous No.4305608]

>>4305606
No lol. Just pulling that out of your ass

[Anonymous No.4305612]

>>4305605
That sounds like a terribly miserable way to go through life. Why don't you try finding out what gives you joy instead of just passively doing things because "I have nothing better to do"?

[Anonymous No.4305615]

>>4305608

There are 3rd graders learning to code in many parts of the world right now. Give an ex convict a pencil and paper and ask them to go through loomis and they'll get frustrated and quit.

[Anonymous No.4305616]

>>4305604
You easily can get into programming by simply copy pasting codes from tutorials and slightly change them to fit together. Getting into drawing however is way harder. You can't just copy paste there.

And professional artists are way beyond programmers anyway. Programming is just like learning some weird language. Drawing is a real craft.

[Anonymous No.4305617]

>>4305606
It depends on what kind of programming field you're going.

Web shit? Easy.

Graphics/IA/Simulations? Hard asf, hope you like math and physics too.

[Anonymous No.4305618]

>>4305612
It probably is a terrible way, but that's just how I am. There isn't really anything which gives me joy. I think my biggest problem is decades of loneliness and myriads of mental violations. After a while your head just gets dull, and you simply "exist" and observe.

[Anonymous No.4305619]

>>4305615
what a fucking retarded example

[Anonymous No.4305623]

>>4305617
Most people "learning to code" are doing it for front/back end web dev stuff or for apps/games. I don't think anyone on /ic/ would escape from /sci/ and decide to pick up a completely polar opposite hobby.

And if OP is quitting something allegedly more easier than programming there is no way in hell he'll have the aptitude for programming AI simulations for the military.

[Anonymous No.4305625]

>>4305597

Based and funpilled

Most people on here are people whos only real "hobby" and passion is watching anime or playing games. As they get older they start to feel unsatisfied and unhappy, having no skill or real passion of their own.
They then start looking for something to give them a sense of productivity or purpose.
They CHOOSE to start drawing because it's the closest productive thing lined to their current interests.
They have no real passion or interest in it, their only goal is to "git gud" enough that other people like themselves will give them the validation they've never gotten before.
Of course this is not sustainable and most quit.

[Anonymous No.4305629]

>>4305619
what a fucking retarded response

[Anonymous No.4305633]

>>4305629
suck my cock nigger youre fucking dumb i hope you trip and hit your head on a counter

[Anonymous No.4305636]

>>4305633
Aww Janny wanna baabaa? It's okay I'll come speak to you in IRC.

[Anonymous No.4305649]

>>4305636
ill knock your teeth out nigger

[Anonymous No.4305656]

>>4305649

Why are you angry?

[Anonymous No.4305661]

>>4304039
Allow me to borrow this thread a bit, should it be fun to draw? I would like to become good at drawing and i applied myself for a while but noticed that im quite results-driven so i had little enjoyment in actually drawing.

Is this where i bite down and practice?

[Anonymous No.4305664]

>>4305629
>>4305633
>>4305636
>>4305649

Both of you absolute FAGGOTS shut the fuck up

[Anonymous No.4305669]

>>4305664
A woman shouldn't butt into a mans discussion.

[Anonymous No.4305670]

>>4305661
What the fuck?

NGMI

Have you never worked for something in your life? Never learned a skill?

And of course it's supposed to be enjoyable, why else do it?

Quit now and don't waste your time

[Anonymous No.4305673]

>>4305669

Oh, the maly trait of arguing with other acne faced little nerds on 4chan

Go take a shower and then call your mom and tell her you're sorry for being such a bitch

[Anonymous No.4305688]

>>4305673
>being on 4chan
>calling other people "acne faced little" nerds

oh the ironing

[Anonymous No.4305694]

>>4305673
youll sure show me by doing exactly what youre mocking

big brain

[Anonymous No.4305698]

>>4305670
I did play guitar for a few years and it was fun learning to play my favourite songs.

What makes you say NGMI?

[Anonymous No.4305701]

>>4305625
This

You can just tell these people expect to progress in a neat linear way like a video game where you rack up experience; or, at best, a STEM discipline like programming where just stuffing your head with memorized knowledge, not to mention copypasting code snippets or googling a solution for every error code, can get you a long way.

It's not even that one is easier than the other--i'm personally shit at programming--it's just a completely different mindset.

[Anonymous No.4305703]

>>4305688
>>4305694

Struck a nerve

[Anonymous No.4305712]

>>4305703

Go be a woman in some other thread. You are lowering the average IQ of the thread with your presence.

[Anonymous No.4305715]

>>4305703
>hey guys "IM RETARDED IM RETARDED"
>haha you called me a retard did i strike a nerve ;)))

dude you're epic owning right now!!

[Anonymous No.4305721]

>>4305661
>should it be fun to draw?
Yes.
You might not find fun in 100% of the process, but you should find some enjoyment and satisfaction from making art. Maybe you enjoy having a finished piece to look at and feel pride in, moreso than just making marks on paper, but you should find fun in some element. Otherwise, what is the point?

[Anonymous No.4305722]

>>4305597
So on the one hand, we have you, someone who only does art because it's fun. On the other hand, we have someone who doesn't think making art is fun at all, but keeps working at it out of their love of the beauty of art, and their desire to bring more of that beauty into the world. Who's the real artist here?

[Anonymous No.4305724]

>>4305712
>>4305715

Got you two on the same side atleast,now stop bitching like fags

Diplomacy win

[Anonymous No.4305728]

>>4305722

You can have fun and still be a hard worker you absolute brainlet

And what the fuck do you mean "real" artist? It's for sure not being the one drawing anime tiddies

[Anonymous No.4305729]

>>4305724
shut up you fucking retarded cunt
>diplomacy win
redditor moron

[Anonymous No.4305731]

>>4305724
It's a temporary truce until you leave.

[Anonymous No.4305743]

>>4305728
lol

[Anonymous No.4305747]

>>4305729
>>4305731

[Anonymous No.4305766]

>>4305722
This is so dumb I can`t even...

[Anonymous No.4305775]

>>4305722
I HATE DOING MATH, BUT I`LL MAJOR IN IT BECAUSE I WANT TO BRING BETTER MATH TO THE WORLD

Do you understand how retarded you sound to others?

[Anonymous No.4305881]

>>4305597
Nice try gatekeeping. Already learned that "maybe this is not for you" is obvious gatekeeping bait from Sycra.

>>4305603
>>4305604
>>4305606
>>4305608
>>4305616
>>4305617
>>4305623
Drawing/Art is definitely not harder than programming. Programming just has direction and people willing to teach. People on art forums tell everyone to screw off and figure it out themselves which is why it is perceptibly difficult and why a lot of people take 10 years to get good but in reality it is just like any other skill. It's also funny how the only people that say programming is easier than drawing are the people that barely even know HTML--one of the easiest programming languages to learn. If I were to study programming, I'd probably do it to get into Cyber Warfare Engineering in the Navy but that's besides the point.

>>4305605
>>4305612
>>4305618
I guess I don't really have that problem since I do have other things that I can do and learn. Having those alternatives in the back of my head make it harder to continue drawing but I keep on doing so regardless.

>>4305625
True. But I've been pursuing hobbies since I started to realize I was wasting it all on video games. Drawing was 3rd skill I decided to pursue because I wanted to create stories. But nobody reads anything longer than a Twitter post these days (besides on here) so I wanted to add illustrations to my writing. I still won't reach as many people if I were to make a movie or animation but at least it broadens my reach.

>>4305633
>>4305636
>>4305649
>>4305664
>>4305669
What the fuck is this?

>>4305661
>>4305670
That's kind of my predicament too. The results come pretty slowly which is why it's sometimes demotivating. If you have the Dunning Kruger effect, you can trick yourself into thinking that just because you can draw a decent Loomis Head that you're "too far into this to quit" but unfortunately my DK ran out and now I realize just how bad I really am. Despite that, I find it more difficult to quit

[Anonymous No.4305899]

>>4305616
>Programming is just like learning some weird language.
Do you want to know how I, a professional programmer, know that you don't know how to program?

[Anonymous No.4305909]

>>4305881
It's not gatekeeping, I just don't see why would you spend so much time learning something that you don't enjoy.

Do things you enjoy, then maybe your life won't be so miserable. That's it.

Now, on the other hand, if you're doing it to get a job and pay the bills, I think it's also a bad way of going about it because if you don't enjoy it, you'll dread going to work every day.

See my point?

[Anonymous No.4305913]

>>4305899
I know three different languages and I haven't found it any easier to learn programming.
Retards love to think in simple terms and then ignorantly spew that shit out on here like it's the fucking gospel.
Learn C++ then come back here and tell me that drawing is more difficult.
These fucking people...

[Anonymous No.4305919]

>>4305909
>reddit spacing
please stop with the gate keeping, it's fucking embarrassing.

[Anonymous No.4305920]

>>4305881
>funny how the only people that say programming is easier than drawing are the people that barely even know HTML
Oh but you are of course a professionak artist and know how hard it actually is, right?

[Anonymous No.4305926]

>>4305920
>professionak
please stop with the passive aggressive shit, it's fucking cringe

[Anonymous No.4305950]

>>4305881
>people that barely even know HTML--one of the easiest programming languages
>HTML
>programming languages
Are you high?

[Anonymous No.4305957]

>>4305899
Yea, this guy is pretty full of shit.

>>4305909
Definitely gatekeeping. Telling people that they shouldn't do something because "nature did not intend it to be so" or some other crap is definitely gatekeeping.

>>4305920
You don't sound like you know what you're talking about.

>>4305950
It's not? All I know is that everyone says that HTML is easy as shit. I personally tried studying C for a few weeks but it was a bit too boring for my ADHD, Call of Duty, instant gratifying 14 year old self.
I think I may be able to pursue it now, but who am I kidding? It's not like learning how to program is going to be any easier than drawing so I might as well stick to drawing.

[Anonymous No.4305967]

Yeah OP go learn programming. Less competition for me.

[Anonymous No.4306009]

>>4305913
>I know three different languages

LMAO, found the scrub. When you know how to program, the number of languages you've programmed in doesn't matter. What matters is that you know every programming paradigm. Then when a project asks for it, you can pick up any programming language that's required for the job or use the one you're most proficient in if possible.

[Anonymous No.4306012]

>>4305957
No problem anon, I won't be sad when you suicide, bye.

[Anonymous No.4306015]

> you thought it was a /g/ programming thread, but was me an /ic/ burnout thread.

[Anonymous No.4306030]

Just wanted to give my two cents on the ease of learning programming vs drawing. Too many comments to reply to all of them so I'll just start fresh. I've been working as a professional programmer for a few years, first learned how to program starting in 2005 when I was 13, and right now I'm a year into learning how to draw.

For me, PERSONALLY, learning how to program was a lot easier and more fun than learning how to draw. Drawing is pretty tortuous for me, but I keep going because I want to achieve my end goal of being able to make the type of art that I want to see. This doesn't necessarily say anything about how inherently hard drawing or programming is, but it could just be that my personal talents are geared more towards logical/symbolic/verbal thinking than visual thinking. I was good at math and writing from a very young age but I was absolutely the worst artist out of all the kids I knew at school, I could not draw anything beyond a stick figure and had no desire to attempt to. There are lots of "I've been drawing ever since I can remember, and I hated math class" types who would probably say the opposite if they tried to learn how to program: learning to draw was easy, but learning programming is torture.

I certainly don't think learning how to program is just flat out easy though, far from it. So overall it probably depends more on the individual and their own talents and preferences rather than the inherent properties of either skill.

Some other possible mitigating factors are, maybe I had more brain plasticity at 13 than I do now which made it easier to learn things, and I definitely had more free time. So if I had tried to start drawing at 13 instead of 26, I'm sure I would have found it easier back then than I'm finding it now, but I still doubt it would have been as easy for me as programming was.
(cont.)

[Anonymous No.4306039]

>>4306030
The better question is do you think it would be harder for you to learn to program right now than when you were 13?

[Anonymous No.4306041]

>>4306030
(cont.)
One of the biggest differences that I've noticed between learning the two skills is that merely reading how-tos and books about programming can increase your skills (to a certain degree, of course you still have to write lots of code too), whereas with drawing, the books teach you very little and almost 100% of your skills come from you actually sitting down and doing the thing. So I feel like I have to exert myself a lot harder to learn how to draw, I can't just passively absorb as much skill through osmosis, but again, to people who have a more natural inclination for drawing they wouldn't view it as exertion at all, they would just view it as fun.

I will say that I've seen many people try to learn programming and eventually drop out and fail to stick with it because they find it too hard. I do think that programming requires a certain critical mass of intelligence, and if you're below the IQ cutoff, it's going to be insanely hard for you; it might just be impossible for some people. I'm currently undecided on if there are similarly people who are incapable of learning how to draw, although I will say that if I am one day able to draw, it means that anyone can.

[Anonymous No.4306044]

>>4306039
Definitely. The age and the amount of free time are factors. But they're also not the only factors.

[Anonymous No.4306050]

>>4304014
Hey OP if you're still here, did you come to some conclusions after a day and 160 replies of whatever the fuck happened to this thread?

[Anonymous No.4306070]

>>4305529
Programming also takes 3-5 years to learn.

[Anonymous No.4306092]

>>4306030
wow you're pretty much narrating my life story - also a professional programmer, bad at art as a kid, about the same age too lol. hope we make it, I will be angry for the rest of my life if I don't.

>>4306039
I would be much more efficient at learning because I have the fundamental background in mathematics and computer science and experience with learning other skills (such as writing). Programming is mostly about having a solid mental model of the system you're trying to create and good taste/best practices learned from observation and experience. A lot of this translates to art I guess, but it remains to be seen how far one can go with it.

[Anonymous No.4306127]

>>4305967
The fact that you say that shows you're insecure and that you'll never actually make it in the professional world. Despite that, I've already said over and over that I don't plan on being in industry. It's just something I want to do for fun.

>>4306009
I mean foreign languages. When people compare computer languages to foreign languages, they are oversimplifying the difficulty of programming.

>>4306012
?

>>4306015
Yes.

>>4306030
>Learned how to program as a kid.
>It was easier for me to learn programming.
Dude, I don't know if you don't realize this but you sound so much full of shit that I think you might need to get that checked.
If you were to switch the skills in your lifetime story, it would have been the complete opposite.
Personally, I don't count anything you learned before the age of 20 since you don't really remember those years and you learn much easier at that age.

>>4306039
That's exactly what I'm saying. The reason it's so hard for a lot of to begin drawing is because we never started as a kid. If you started as a kid, drawing is easy as fuck. For the rest of us, we have to work hard. Not that the former doesn't work hard, it's just a different kind of difficulty. It's less about getting out of the frustrating beginner level and more about getting to the industry level.

>>4306070
Exactly. It's basically just like drawing. It's not like drawing is some magical skill that is somehow harder than everything else. Most skills typically take 3-5 years to learn.

[Anonymous No.4306141]

>>4306050
>Figured this should have it's own reply since it's basically my conclusion. After this, I'll let the thread die if you guys want.
Yes, I did. I realized that I was only frustrated in drawing, not that I wanted to quit. Me wanting to quit was just a side effect of becoming frustrated in drawing.
Besides that, there are a lot of technical flaws in the way I studied. I used to only study from life because people said that studying styles was a crutch, evidently. I've decided that I'm no longer going to study strictly from life but to start analyzing and doing copies from other artists so that I can learn how exactly to draw something rather than frustratingly try to figure it out myself.
I also figured it would be a good idea to draw each feature and practice it individually, separate from the face, rather than try to draw the entire face all at once--which is extremely frustrating.
I'll start with proportions, move onto the hair, then move onto the rest of the features, leaving the eyes for last since I find those to be the most difficult.
As far as how long I'll spend, I'm not exactly sure. I'm still in the middle of a burnout but I still want to draw despite what my emotions try to make me do. I'll see if I can push through a few head exercises for at least 2 hours a day.
I don't really feel like the "I have to draw 18 hours a day" really applies to me since I'm not planning on being a professional. I do want to reach a point where I am drawing a lot but I want to increase my hours as my burnout effect starts to decrease to avoid burning out even worst.

TLDR;
I'm not quitting, I'm just frustrated.
I'm trying new things thanks to the answers I've gotten on here.
You guys have been a great help and I'm really fortunate to have had such great advice, thank you!

[Anonymous No.4306148]

>>4305967
>Less competition for me.
Who says that you and OP would be in the same niche to begin with?

[Anonymous No.4306271]

>>4306141
godspeed, anon.

[Anonymous No.4306307]

>>4306127
>That's exactly what I'm saying. The reason it's so hard for a lot of to begin drawing is because we never started as a kid. If you started as a kid, drawing is easy as fuck. For the rest of us, we have to work hard.

you guys all said you couldn't draw anything but stick figures as a kid--which means you drew.

you never had to draw for a school assignment? make a greeting card for your aunt? no one ever gave you some colored pencils and told you to entertain yourself for a couple hours?

the vast majority of people aren't exposed to programming until adulthood, and even then it has to be self-selected. you had the chance to see if you liked drawing and decided not to take it up.

[Anonymous No.4306400]

>>4306307
Bad bait.
/thread

[Anonymous No.4307275]

>>4305957
>Acting like gatekeeping is a bad thing
People in the artist community gatekeep because of retards like you. People that don't actually like to draw, have no ideas or stories they want to create, you simply fell in love with the idea of being an artist and the clout it brings. You thought it was easy because you saw some 16 year old savant making gains over a couple months. Dummies like yourself tumble into literally every corner of the internet saying the same shit.
>Oh I'm an artist
>posts dogshit piece with no fundamentals
>Waaaah, why am I not like this guy that has been drawing for 20+ years only after only drawing a single unfinished piece every other month for 2 years!?!?
Its the same thing every single time. You ask what inspirations you have, its a single basic bitch artist or show, you ask how many drawings/doodles you've done this week, its always 1 or 2 if you've even picked up a pencil this week. You tell them keep drawing, make room for sessions where you draw from real life, give them resources at the very least, and at the very most give them a redline and in-depth explanation as to what their doing wrong. 8 times out of 10 you get ignored and they tell you some bullshit reason as to why they didn't listen to you.
You don't want to do any of the leg work, drawing is not like coding where there's a linear progression and a simple line of deduction as to why something is going wrong. There's no one key to drawing good. (You) have to figure it out. Understand what you want you work to look like. Make mistakes doing pieces and figuring out what you did wrong. Observing and copying other artist to figure what you want out yourself. You've been sitting in this thread for 2 days responding with anime girl reaction pics like a under aged discord faggot instead of drawing. I already know how your going to respond so fuck you for wasting my time you fucking newfaggot.

[Anonymous No.4309362]

it's time to give up anon.