/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

[Anonymous No.3953934]

>these are big-name industry artists
/ic/ BTFO

[Anonymous No.3953937]

i can just tell from looking at those avis, that these people are they/them pronoun monstrosity

[Anonymous No.3953938]

>>3953934
> when i'm doing character concept art, my goal is to get something about the character across to a team of people as quickly and efficiently as possible. so i will use: 3D, photo bash, photo ref, tracing over stuff to clarify... the whole toolbox comes out for that one.
It's almost like they have different responsibilities from illustrators.
Or that there's a time and place for tracing.

[Anonymous No.3953939]

>>3953937
Nope, just regular she/her cis women

[Anonymous No.3953940]

>>3953939
almost as bad

[Anonymous No.3953943]

>>3953934
No one serious about being a professional thinks anything but consistency and deadlines matter. Still wouldn't trace for a personal project though.

[Anonymous No.3953946]

>>3953934
Production line artists aren't selling themselves and their skill for home decor. Their job is to aid the production of an entertainment medium. That's it. Anything else involved can go to hell. This goes doubly for animators.

This is different from an illustrator selling their work as a work. People aren't just buying it just because it looks nice, there's a lot of implicit skill going on there, a culture they're buying into.

[Anonymous No.3953947]

>>3953934
I have never seen a person calling using ref as cheating
I feel like the people just like to beat a dead horse

[Anonymous No.3953950]

>>3953934
Is there a word for where you don't like tracing not because of legal or ethical reasons but because you think it's lame?
And I'm wondering where they're getting "no references, no eyeballing" from because it's tracing most people are against.

[Anonymous No.3953952]

>>3953947
>I have never seen a person calling using ref as cheating
Not other artists, but I have had randos and buyers look over my work and ask straight up if it was from imagination or if I just "looked at something and copied it".

[Anonymous No.3953955]

>>3953950
Not even being a dick but I guess elitism or puritanism would catch that. Honestly nothing wrong with a little bit of elitism so long as you don't swing it like a club and don't make yourself impervious to criticism

[Anonymous No.3953959]

>disney had 5 second rotoscoped animations and reused some cels therefore im justified in cutting corners to quickly churn out soulless 20
minute animations and think im just following common industry practices

[Anonymous No.3953966]

>>3953959
Figures that the retard can't greentext

[Anonymous No.3953968]

>>3953934

Scanning real world objects for use in 3d production is nothing like tracing a 2d image you daft cunt.

[Anonymous No.3953969]

>>3953934
>"other people are kicking this puppy so its not wrong that I do it too"

I honestly dont know how those "artists" do that.
When I was like 7yo I traced this Dragon Ball character in a magazine once and I instantly felt like shit. Know why? Cuz I knew that that cool drawing was drawn effortless by someone who had zero skills.
Only recently I got back into drawing and I tried tracing for the sake of practice and even them I feel guilty.
Tracing is something ANYONE can do, so how would that make you an artist?
The fact that theres so many popular artists out there that trace shit and their fans doesnt care about it is mind blowing to me.

[Anonymous No.3953972]

>>3953968
Referring to Alexandria and Mingjue, that woman in between is just some irrelevant with 2k followers

[Anonymous No.3953974]

>>3953959
A large majority of of Disney’s animation is heavily referenced. There isn’t just 5 seconds of rotoscoping from them either fellow applefag.

[Anonymous No.3953980]

>>3953946
This basically
incredible that so few people get this

[Anonymous No.3953986]

>>3953934
>literally trace
>lump your tracing in with "using reference is not cheating!" to not sound as bad

[Anonymous No.3953997]

>>3953952
>looked at something and copied it
lmao based randos. I'm going to start asking this. So many artists are just poor copies of photoshop, stitching various images together and calling it creative.

[Anonymous No.3954083]

>>3953969

[Anonymous No.3954137]

>>3953934
Once you are famous you can say anything you want. If some no name faggot said he traces everything he would lose all credibility.
Also these people never said that tracing helped them learn, which is what /ic/ says

[Anonymous No.3954172]

>>3953934
there scared ... they don't want you to get good.

[Anonymous No.3954696]

>>3953969
>The fact that theres so many popular artists out there that trace shit and their fans doesnt care about it is mind blowing to me.
Consumers don't care about intergrity/morality or whatever, they just want a product they want to consume.
You can do no wrong unless some high autorithy or the masses decide it's bad.
Welcome to "humanity", Anon.

[Anonymous No.3954737]

>>3953934
I don't care if someone traced once because of a deadline. Hell I don't care if you can build a career out of tracing all your work all the time. But if someone traces a lot I will assume they're a mediocre artist until I see proof to the contrary.

[Anonymous No.3954822]

>>3953969
Kek, same here. I have this folder since i was 9, it has some traced stuff i used to show my friends. I used to feel really bad when people asked me to see it, so when i was 11 i stopped "drawing". Got back some months ago.

[Anonymous No.3954901]

>>3954822
girl on left is really cute. too bad even back then you were a hand hiding loser faggot

[Anonymous No.3954908]

If you dont understand how tracing plays a role in workflows you shouldn't be doing it and head to /beg/ instead

[Anonymous No.3954947]

these "pros" really misunderstand when a /beg/ trace they don't learn shit most of the time.

[Anonymous No.3954989]

>>3954696
Don't ask questions.

[Anonymous No.3955183]

>>3954947
They don't misunderstand, they just know that most newbies trace and say this to validate them and get brownie points. It's all marketing.

[Anonymous No.3955201]

Tracing is something that you actually get better at the more funadamentals you learn. When /beg/ traces from a photo they don't know what should be a line and what should be implied. Tyey end up converting a photo into well proportioned symbol drawings.
Even if /beg/ traces a simple linedrawing, where you think you couldnt go wrong they often lose the line weight, the turn clear overlaps into confusing tangents and they cant do long sweeping lines or even cheat chicken scratches into looking like long continous lines like animators do.

Hell 90% of 2d animation is inbetweening which is basically just competently tracing other peoples work with some small perspective knowledge.

[Anonymous No.3955215]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYbYvImd7Bw

This video explains the necessity of references/tracing in competitive business-orientated art.

[Anonymous No.3955223]

>>3953934
>iit luddite ngmis

[Anonymous No.3955265]

there's a huge difference between tracing artwork and tracing reference photos.

tracing a couple of your references before doing repetition studies really helps you get a better understanding of the shapes and form of the subject.

if you use tracing in your finished product you're a huge faggot though

[Anonymous No.3955294]

>>3953950
I'm in the same boat. Tracing and heavy referencing is just lame as fuck to me.

[Anonymous No.3955312]

>>3953934
Art is production. In the end, the final "product" is more important than how it was produced. Being able to freehand draw is kind of only something that is circlejerked about among beginner art students and people that don't actually know that much about what being a "professional" artist is.

When you're working with deadlines and budgets and an expectation of it being "usable" you fucking trace, use grids, use as many references as possible etc. There's absolutely zero point in trying to focus on "making it from scratch" when literally nobody gives a shit about how the product was produced. Even for people that can comfortably draw and have art educations, hand drawing just more variables and possibilities to fuck up, adds more production time generally, and often may look "wonky" or obviously hand drawn, which often isn't what people are looking for.

Does that mean you shouldn't also know how to draw freehand? Nope. You NEED to learn le fundamentals or else tracing and gridding and referencing doesn't really work. It just looks like some retard traced something. It's like in math classes at school, you spend your childhood having to "show your work" to demonstrate that you fundamentally understand what and why you're doing things, but in real life, "professional" people that have to do a lot of math ALWAYS use calculators. Even well-trained humans are prone to error and oversight, so if your goal is "get the right result" every time, there's absolutely zero reason to risk sabotaging the effort just to circlejerk about how well you can do things people learn in middleschool.

And there's also a level of irony that a lot of the people that talk shit about gridding and tracing and graphite transferring, mostly seem to draw anime on a computer. You have thousands of dollars of equipment that can undo every fuck up you make, and you're acting uppity about people "cheating" by using a ruler or tracing/graphite paper.

[Anonymous No.3955347]

>>3955215
It isn't a necessity at all, there are plenty of working "concept" artists that don't have it or need it in their workflow. People keep trying to justify it when the reasoning for tracing also lines up with other tools too, tools which they don't use because they're more demanding of the individual. Need fast turn arounds? Get better, organize your workflow and tool shortcuts. These people talk about how the "idea" is what is important and use that to justify using photos when that can be applied to sketches just the same. The old Star Wars character and fashion sketches are very simple yet convey everything that is needed without needing to get actor photos as templates.

[Anonymous No.3955351]

>>3953950
>And I'm wondering where they're getting "no references, no eyeballing" from
Probably from /begs/ who learned it here and spread it elsewhere. I've seen that attitude that any use of reference or observational drawing is "copying" the most here and its just hilarious and sad

[Anonymous No.3955365]

>>3955351
I think referencing is fine if you're using life (photos, 3D body scans, etc) to inform how you're placing your forms in space. I think it's a blatant misnomer to call stuff like >>3947579 "referenced." Sure, maybe it wasn't directly traced. However the vast majority of the spatial and stylistic thinking (which is what we're trying to train here as artists) has already been taken care of by the other artist. It seems a lot of posters on /ic/ fail to differentiate between good reference practices and "referencing."

[Anonymous No.3955375]

>>3955347
>Get better, organize your workflow and tool shortcuts.
There is absolutely no way 'getting better' will be able to compete with photobashing and 3D rigging. There's no guess work, WAY less searching and the results reach a finished stage far quicker than would be possible with traditional methods. This isn't about keeping true to the 'art', this is about getting the result quickly, efficiently and reliably.
You could be able to reproduce.

[Anonymous No.3955383]

>>3954947
Most pro artists or just good artists have traced once in the past.

Tracing shows that someone is interested in art, its the first step before actually learning. Plus it helps build up hand eye coordination and understanding of what "looks right"

[Anonymous No.3955386]

>>3955383
>Most pro artists or just good artists have traced once in the past.
When they were 5 year old most likely

[Anonymous No.3955392]

>>3955386
yeah, because its literally entry to art.
There's no reason to frown on it, because 99.9% of the time its just kids being kids and wanting to draw something cool.

[Anonymous No.3955395]

>>3955375
Surely this isn't something we even have to argue right? We have objective measures of time it takes to produce x y or z. I could spend the day finding you such a huge range of artists of all skillsets, some better artists will, objectively, produce the work needed to a level that is sufficient for the modelers in LESS time than someone that photobashes. Likewise the reverse is also true, the issue I have is that people ONLY champion using crutches and don't look at the reality of the industry and of people. Everyone is different, some management situations are shit, some outsourcing scenarios are equally as fucking garbage. There are any number of variables yet when it comes to producing the artwork its "you must photobash because time". What level of game requires photobashing? Theres plenty of games that use it sparing and house some of the best artists in the industry. Guerilla, Arkane, Blizzard etc. Or you can pivot and start talking about how its more a need for certain genres and I can then point you to artists that work for DICE that take a paper doll approach to character concepting and variations or how much of the artwork for Alien Isolation was just simple linework and solid draftsmanship.
Where in the fuck are these photo and 3d demands? Shall we start going through every studio on gamedevmap and looking up the portfolios at each studio, this is easy to prove (albeit time consuming).

[Anonymous No.3955396]

>>3955386
most pro artists just have learned not to get caught

[Anonymous No.3955397]

>>3955396
Kron images annoy me because CLEARLY he is doing a remaster of the image, it isn't supposed to be a unique and original drawing, its a redrawing of the exact same drawing in his style.

[Anonymous No.3955405]

>>3955397
You’re definitely not wrong, he’s one of the best artists of our time and a genius. People who don’t trace/heavilyref are simply failures who will nmi. This is why none of us will ever have a million followers

[Anonymous No.3955408]

>>3955396
Hats a retarded example considering its just a redo without claims of originality. It’s pretty much your style my style. Just in rendering.

[Anonymous No.3955409]

>>3955405
There's a huge difference between
>hey I made this totally original and new image guys
and
>hey I made literally this other drawing but in my style, how does it compare?

[Anonymous No.3955411]

>>3955409
Here’s a better one then after the scandal was still under fire. Claimed he drew it on the bus and used randos as refs.

[Anonymous No.3955412]

>>3955365
Atleast that anon tried to use references as the professionals do. Multiple references to make one piece, adjust the pose and figure to fit his idea and to make it unique. His biggest flaw was actually following the stylization from the main reference artwork too closely (especially in the hair and face) and not just using it to figure out the pose and proportions, thus it looked too similar to the original even though he changed the clothing, hair, rendering, position of the legs, size of the breasts, etc. He didn't really copy anything but the style imo.

>the vast majority spatial and stylistic thinking (which is what we're trying to train here as artists) has already been taken care of by the other artist.
That's the point of using references. An untrained artist will just utilize it to create his own derivative artwork instead of something wholly original yet influenced by his reference photos because he doesn't have the skill to push that far beyond mimicry.

[Anonymous No.3955579]

>>3955215
And it explains why the biggest stuff looks so uninspired & generic...
We know, we know : tight schedules & deadlines, you can't take too much risk to not scare the target audience,etc... One day the audience will stop looking,stop caring because it's the same microwaved soup over & over again.

[Anonymous No.3955585]

>>3955409
hes baiting...

[Anonymous No.3955608]

>>3953934

[Anonymous No.3955637]

>>3955223
> t. /beg/ who needs their hand held 24/7

[Anonymous No.3956775]

>>3953940
God fucking damn it

[Anonymous No.3956822]

>>3955396
Is Kronz Ilya or was he his own entity?

[Anonymous No.3956838]

>>3954908
The only thing I trace is basic 3D models (made by me) for architecture and assets that are reused multiple times, for accuracy. I know how to measure by hand but I'm not going to waste time making perspective grids just to pat myself on the back.
I have never copied reference directly outside of practice (and I can't copy at all, I'll give you that), I always look at reference separately and make practice sketches to understand how the thing I'm referencing is constructed and how it works, its anatomy etc. then apply it to my work.
I get satisfying results and I enjoy drawing the most this way. To me, drawing is tied with observing the world and understanding things. I think this is why the Renaissance masters valued it as a skill. If I gave up on this curiosity and just copied images, that would completely kill drawing for me.

[Anonymous No.3956913]

just trace kids you’ll thank yourself later. 8)

[Anonymous No.3956920]

>>3955183
this

[Anonymous No.3956921]

>>3956913
>"save your wrists"
meanwhile in Japan

[Anonymous No.3956958]

There's a reason why Vilppu said not to copy but to analyze.

[Anonymous No.3956962]

>>3956913
>save your wrists

this retards in the wrong profession

[Anonymous No.3957004]

>>3956921
Japanese animators trace too autist. The difference is smaller teams, payed less, and horrifying deadlines.

[Anonymous No.3957011]

>>3957004
Try to reason why I quoted "save your wrists" specifically

[Anonymous No.3957039]

>>3953934
The only reason to not copy/trace (assuming you already took care of not infringing copyright) is that it'll do nothing to develop your skills. If you're working and it'll save you time no shit you should be tracing.No one gives a shit about your mad skills, put good work out and put it out fast.

[Anonymous No.3957048]

>>3957011
They are tracing to save their wrists.
They need it even more than her

[Anonymous No.3958210]

>>3956913
>save your wrists
I wish I didn't have to share my hobby with people like this

[Anonymous No.3958211]

>>3953934
When I was young I used to copy anime and manga drawings all the time. I never directly traced though I knew that was wrong. Still feel like shit though.

[Anonymous No.3958258]

Professional artist that traces, only do that to meet the deadline, which is fine of course. However if the artwork is for your own personal use, and you trace, that’s just you being lazy. And btw tracing is ugly And wonky looking. Most artist that photo-bash and trace, they typically use those images as references, and then freehand their work. I’m not sure why there’s an argument about this, this is pretty much common sense. I mean yeah it’s fine to trace your own material or copyright free stuff, however it really does not look good. Referencing is a different story however.

[Anonymous No.3958273]

>>3953934
Whatever. Its harder to work withouth reference but a hundred times more rewarding. Fuck these cunts

[Anonymous No.3958309]

>>3953969
>The fact that theres so many popular artists out there that trace shit and their fans doesnt care about it is mind blowing to me.

Do you care if the fried chicken you eat was raised in good conditions or bad conditions? You do not because for eating that is an irrelevant question, that chicken was butchered either way where it came from does not change the fact that it was butchered.

When will stupid crabs like you finally learn to accept the reality that art is a product, and the consumer does not care where it came from or how was it made. For the buyer only the end result matters, not the process of creation it. The sooner you learn to accept this the better you will be.

[Anonymous No.3958316]

>>3956921
You must keep tracing until you are bleeding

[Anonymous No.3958324]

>>3956921
He must be watching a lot of ecchi material

[Anonymous No.3958328]

>>3958309
food analogy, fuck off.

[Anonymous No.3959776]

>>3958328
i''d use a sex analogy but youve never had it sooooo

[Anonymous No.3959821]

>>3953934

I don't care about tracing per se, that's a very middle school way of looking at it. The issue I have is artists stealing photos taken by someone else with minimal transformation. I don't care if they trace or measure by eye but the point is that they are using the work of someone else with minimal input on their own.

Pic related by Wojtek Fus (who titles himself a concept designer) for instance was originally posted without the mention of the original photograph or photographer, or the use of photography at all, leading to the misleading representation that this was his original concept.

[Anonymous No.3959822]

>>3959821

original photo

[Anonymous No.3959834]

>>3959821
Normies don't care, and the industry appreciates a man with no ethics or integrity holding him back from churning out material, or real artistic vision that might get in the way of producing another soulless piece of shit entertainment.
Commercial 'art' isn't art. These people are not artists.

[Anonymous No.3959845]

>>3959776
I'm not even mad. Nice.

[Anonymous No.3960074]

[Anonymous No.3960145]

>>3959776
It would be hard to make that analogy with no frame of reference.

[Anonymous No.3960937]

>>3953934
FUCKING
BASED
AS
FUCK

[Anonymous No.3960969]

>>3953939
>>3953937
Then they have "she / her" in their bios lmao

[Anonymous No.3961044]

Based Landscape artist, laughing at you and traicing reality.

[Anonymous No.3961267]

>>3955608
No, thanks.