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/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

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File: 189 KB, 1280x905, 20 years.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3419797 No.3419797 [Reply] [Original]

How useful is the sticky really?

Is there anyone here who came to /ic/ not knowing shit and went through everything in the sticky and became a pro? Is it an actual guide to learning how to draw or does it exist to simply give beginners some kind of direction to go in?

I always see people say "just draw" as a response to everything, but how useful is that really? I've been "just drawing" for years and I'm still in absolute beginner shitter territory. Obviously time spent putting the pencil to paper doesn't meaningfully translate to direct increase of skill just by itself. How do I actually get better?

>> No.3419802

The sticky isn't a guide to become a professional. It's a guide to learn how to learn how to draw. It basically lists everything that someone who knows nothing really needs. Just draw is the more useful response because just reading is much less useful. Just look is even lesser. If you still perceive yourself as an absolute beginner, then you need to fix your brain because your standards are warped if you can't tell that there's levels in between someone who doesn't draw to someone who draws very well. You get better by paying attention and fixing your mistakes.

>> No.3419803

>>3419797
>Obviously time spent putting the pencil to paper doesn't meaningfully translate to direct increase of skill just by itself.
not if you draw 20min a day.

>> No.3419805

>>3419802
You've never seen a webcomic where the artist's skill barely changes even after 10-15 years of drawing every day? There's tons of them

>> No.3419811

>>3419805
That doesn't mean much. There's too many factors at play for you to really know anything about that particular artists's routine unless you lived with that person or are that person. Webcomic can mean anything from basic stickmen to highly rendered humans. Skill can mean anything, how well they get across their message through their drawings, how well they draw eyes, how quick they draw, and more. You need to be more concrete or else you also won't improve. You need to be able to identify the exact specific issues and target them because they are your weaknesses.

>> No.3419814
File: 14 KB, 225x224, 48561566.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3419814

bury useful, I aprov sticky

>> No.3419831

>>3419797
I've never really delved too deeply on the sticky.
Tbh I've been feeling more comfortable with the idea of learning on the go, improving during and after each iteration through referencing and finding tutorials as I try to do my own stuff. That's worked wonders for my art

>> No.3419846

>>3419814
W-what is that thing?

>> No.3419964

>>3419803
But what should you draw about in those 20 minutes though. Drawing random repetitive shit will take you nowhere without a learning plan. "I'm going to focus on hands." "I'm going to focus on poses." etc. And for that you need to read books and follow tutorials first to learn what you need to practice especifically

>> No.3419977

>>3419964
I was joking that 20 minutes is literally nothing. Real improvement takes a minimum of 5 hours a day. If you need to study books, then so be it? It took me 3 hours to read the entire "Color & Light by James Gurney" in one day and by the end I had a much better understanding of this fundamental and moved on. I don't see what the problem is, if you put in actual effort, it won't take you a whole year to finish a Loomis book. Most people's fear of even starting is what prolongs them staying stuck in that "but i gotta read books" stage.

When OP says "I've been 'just drawing' for years" I picture him doodling for 10 mintues maybe 4 days a week. Ofc you still suck.

>> No.3420005

>>3419805
Webcomics are stylized they aren't supposed to suddenly switch up and change their art style. Also if all you do are draw stylized comic characters that's all you will be good at.

>> No.3420016

>>3419797
OP art isn't fucking math ok. There is no "solution" to getting pro at art. The sticky is used as a guide for people who don't know where to start, it gives them something to work on while they search for that answer. Just draw is very useful. It lets you know about what things you like or what you don't like to draw. It lets you develope your own style over time. Don't think doing fundies and studies only until you've mastered it will make you the next Ruan Jia. "Just draw" and learning to like drawing (even though its shitty) is the ultimate key to getting better.

>> No.3420031

>>3419797
Nobody has ever completed the sticky and was automatically good
The key is to just draw

Hone in on your weak points and just keep drawing
Fuck trying to read every book ever made. That won't amount to shit if you don't draw. That's like learning music theory without learning how to play the guitar.

>> No.3420042
File: 506 KB, 784x744, 3yearsofprograss.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3420042

>>3420031
>The key is to just draw

>Hone in on your weak points and just keep drawing

The second part is where you get to the meat of it. People who really do "just draw" with no further self reflection or advice can end up stagnating for years and years. Pic related.

>> No.3420062

>>3420042
I guarantee you this person drew a grand total of 7 times in those 3 years. Don't pretend they grinded directionlessly for all that time, the real killer is not drawing.

>> No.3420080
File: 791 KB, 884x499, Create first study later - ask yourself questions.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3420080

>>3419797
Draw what you love first.
Looks like shit? Fix it. Don't know how? See how others fixed it. Copy them, steal their power.
Don't understand how they fixed it? Look up fundies.

Do this for about 2 - 3 hours a day. You'll be good in 5 years.

>> No.3420122

>>3419797
OP picture is a great example of loving what you do. That's more than 30 plus years of love and passion, and really, only about four or five of really getting the practice down.

The true fundamentals you need to know are love and passion for what you do, patience to know the difference between good and bad and everything in between, and practice to make yourself better every day.

If you have those fundamentals down, you too, can be just like OP pic one day. It may not be today, it may not be tomorrow, but it will be one day.

>> No.3420127

>>3420122
Follow these fundamentals:

Love and passion for what you do
Patience to learn from your mistakes
Practice that makes perfect

Everything else will fall into place. Trust me.

>> No.3420139

>>3420122
It's 23 years, you idiot. And if your answer is "just wait 23 years" then that's little condolence.

>> No.3420159

>>3420139
salty. And I'm referring to the year we're in in reference to OP pic, so that's what, 27 years?

But then again, what do you know about the fundamentals. :) Stay salty, anon.

>> No.3420166

>>3420159
28 years, my bad. That's 28 years you'll have to wait before you git gud. :)

>> No.3420175

>>3420159
>>3420166
>:)
you're a girl aren't you?

>> No.3420186

>>3420175
guys are so salty on here :O

>> No.3420192

>>3420127
Why isn't this in the sticky?

>> No.3420195

>>3420192
You can't define love, passion and patience in words.

>> No.3420266 [DELETED] 

>>3419797
It's not useful at all.

>> No.3420373
File: 310 KB, 800x941, 110_tid_Brom-HornedOne.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3420373

>>3419797
You have to get a friend or partner who is hard on your work.
Im serious. No candy-coating criticism. But make sure they have good taste first, a weeb is obviously going to hate western style even if it's god-tier quality. You dont want someone taking the wheel and driving you into NGMI town.

>> No.3420376

>>3419797
This feet always makes me laugh.

>> No.3421864

>>3419797
That's pretty good

>> No.3421877

>>3419797
>Posts a pic of someone who is a living example talent isn't a factor wheter you are able of drawing well or don't, its just a matter of perseverance and time
>''why are people telling me to actually draw? I'll never get gud this way!!!''

>> No.3421881

>>3421877
It's about the contents of the sticky.
They're fairly disorganized, and full of misinformation and filler.
There have even been several people updating the sticky, and trying to improve it, but no one seems receptive to change it.

>> No.3421919

>>3421881
>full of misinformation and filler
Such as?

>> No.3421929

>>3421919
Perspective made easy, has nothing How to Draw wouldn't provide.
Drawing on the right side of the brain, is completely useless.
A lot of dead links as well.
I think the problem is more that people have different goals.
Certain books will help people more than others depending on their situation.

>> No.3421933

>>3421929
>Certain books will help people more than others depending on their situation
And that's what I wanted to hear, learning is different to every people, specially when its something so subjective like art

The concept of a Sticky by itself is a meme, not only because of that reason, but also because it demotivate people to actually engage and help each other, because all they do/say is go read l00mis/sticky and no discussion will ever grow from that besides shitpost

>> No.3421991

>>3421933
I hate stickies on 4chan and wikis on Reddit. Like, wtf is even the point of having a forum when you do that.

>> No.3421992

>>3421991
So you don't have the same stupid questions every single day.

>> No.3421997

>>3421992
That's what a faq is for.
The sticky doesn't have all the answers.

>> No.3424172

>>3421929
I assume most people here just want to draw female characters, nude or not, anime or not.

>> No.3424581

>>3419797
The trap is that the sticky isn’t ACTUALLY for beginners, the idea that the sticky will get you from zero to hero is the biggest meme on /ic/, a practical injoke between a couple hundred regulars. The sticky is for the deviantart autist who’s been drawing since they were eight but never advanced past how to draw manga. It takes the motor skills and art sensibilities that said autists have steadily acquired over ten or so years and gives it purpose and focus. This is why you’ll see lots of progress pics showing progress from anime scribbles to decent art in like a year or two. This is the ultimate practical application of Loomis.

For actual beginners though sticky resources can help ultimately independent creative art pressed out at a solid consistency rate is the only way to improve. Until you can consistently make shitty art at a decent pace, you won’t be able to move on.

>> No.3424589

>>3424581
>You need to draw for years and develop mechanical skill before applying basic concepts in your work
God, hope you are baiting

>> No.3424592

>>3424581
Good post. I see you too have struggled and realized that it's not because of talent, but because you haven't drawn for years to attain that confidence and sleight of hand.

>> No.3424596

>>3424581
>tfw wasn't in on the joke
>ultimately independent creative art pressed out at a solid consistency rate is the only way to improve. Until you can consistently make shitty art at a decent pace, you won’t be able to move on.
So what does this mean for me? Just draw whatever?

>> No.3424675

>>3424589
"Years" is a mighty exaggeration, but yes it means that diving right into the technicalities of art won't really result in substantial improvements, and may even cause stagnation.

>>3424596
It means you need to let go of your 4chan "everything must be refined classical perfection" mentality and give into the Tumblr/Deviantart hugbox mentality, cranking out miles of shitty art that you personally want to draw. Have that idea for a character? See a draw request in some thread? Wanna draw some shit on your desk? Fuck it, go ahead and do it. You don't have to post it anywhere, but as long as you're cranking in the hours you will slowly get better at consistently making shit, versus absolute scribbles.

For adult learners it makes sense to supplement this with actual studies, aka reading the shit on the sticky, but it's important to make sure that just-for-fun garbage doesn't get outweighed by tryhard-study garbage. As you start to see the gains, then you'll be better able to pinpoint your weaknesses and be able to specialize on them. It's also when anons will be able to give meaningful criticism beyond "this shit sucks, draw it again but less sucky".

>> No.3424708

>>3424675
>make sure that just-for-fun garbage doesn't get outweighed by tryhard-study garbage

what happens if it does? doesn't seem so bad

>> No.3424846

>>3424708
If you only do try hardy stuff and not things you enjoy. What's the point art isn't all about how good you can get it's about creating and that's the same for shit boxes and masterpieces. If your making things you hate only to improve you'll burn out and there's no reason to make art anyway.

>> No.3424852

>>3419797
that's a really good example of technical skill increasing while creativity decreases.

spring chair with fun cat lady bouncing gone

bar stool with probably referenced cliched pin up pose instead

>> No.3424906

>>3424846
>If your making things you hate only to improve you'll burn out and there's no reason to make art anyway.

That's operating under the assumption you hate your try hardy stuff.

So you've decided to train and study to get the technical skill to make what you want to make. Seems pretty reasonable to train as hard as you can, provided you don't hate the training.

>> No.3424948

>>3424846
I want to draw hentai girls, do I need Loomis?

>> No.3424956

>>3419797
>Obviously time spent putting the pencil to paper doesn't meaningfully translate to direct increase of skill just by itself. How do I actually get better?
Draw things you don't know how to draw.
Development only comes from pushing your boundaries.

>> No.3424979

>>3424852
No, it's because more realism requires more references to achieve and if a perp of this level attempts to draw without references it will come out looking no better than the drawing on the left and they'll feel shit about that so they draw less and less fantastical poses as time goes by and people will grow to expect them to continue at that quality level and they'll feel more and more boxed in to continue performing which is only possible when you are drawing the same stuff with lots of references.

>> No.3424987

>>3421929
what does keys to drawing teach you if those two does nothing

>> No.3425041

>>3424948
Anime is just an abstraction of reality. If you understand fundamentals then you can stylize those realistic heads into anime ones.

Learn fundies first.

>> No.3425063

>>3419797

If you keep doing something for a long time and still find joy in it and a way to make it interesting/set yourself goals to achieve, you are bound to get good or at least semi-competent in it.

People have doubts when they are still in education period or feel they are doing same thing over and over without any variety.

That's also why getting out of your room is important, finding like-minded people, maybe some conflict, maybe some community. Hell, even simple things like life drawing gives you some variety, since you see wind changing, sun travelling on the sky, clouds moving, birds flying, people walking...

If you sit in front of your PC non stop every day and do little else, then you are bound to hate it and your art probably will progress slowly since you will feel inner resistance to the act.

>> No.3425068

>>3425063
>If you sit in front of your PC non stop every day and do little else, then you are bound to hate it
But I hate not being in front of my PC.

>> No.3425103

>>3424948
Learn fundies AND copy anime at the same time. Apply fundies to anime.

>> No.3427537

>>3421933
> it demotivate people to actually engage and help each other, because all they do/say is go read l00mis/sticky and no discussion will ever grow from that besides shitpost

Wrong, it's there to prevent literally EVERY thread (not 1-3 at any given time) being "How do I learn to draw?"

>> No.3428641

>>3424675
But what if I can visualize what I want to draw but get depressed at how my skills are too low to attempt it?
Should I do it anyway, or mentally shelve it until later?

>> No.3428690
File: 301 KB, 2048x2048, kill me.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3428690

>>3428641
Practice. That's it.

>Draw from memory
>Looks like shit
>See how other's drew it
>Study the real life version if it
>Alter it to where it looks more like favorite style and what I learned studying from life
>Attempt said drawing 500 more times

Easy. Shit isn't hard, don't over think it.
If you're looking for a "right" way to do something, stop it. You only doubt yourself cause you've seen better. See how others do it, steal their powers, and draw.

>> No.3428731

>>3420080
But Junji Ito literally did the mindless grind meme before creating anything.

>> No.3428785

>>3428731
Hello, crab.

>> No.3429349

>>3419797
i prefer the one in the left actually

>> No.3429352

>>3428731
>mindless grind meme
what is that?

>> No.3429373

>>3428731
No he did not? Where do you get that idea from? In the Junji Ito Manben episode he literally says he was drawing manga when he was like in grade school or something. Obviously he also exercised once he started taking art seriously. Doesn't mean he ever did any "mindless grinding".

>> No.3429467 [DELETED] 

>>3420139
>>3420166
Anon the guy in the op pic was probably already drawing well 5-6 years in.

>> No.3429616

>>3419797
>people on /ic/ becoming pro

>> No.3431349

>>3420062
I've known people that draw a lot for years and never improve. People that get in their heads the idea of "just draw" often end up repeating the same drawing over and over, no matter how many drawing they make they will remain almost the same level.

Study and practice are the founding blocks of learning any skill, Trying to figure out which of the two it's more important it's retarded. You will never go anywhere unless you do BOTH.

>> No.3432199

>>3429616
InCase lurked on /ic/ from 2014 to 15

Coming to this place once every 7 months to get some info can be alright, coming here daily to a point you just become another /r9k/ reject shitposting about feels is when you just lose completely

>> No.3432200

>>3432199
>coming here daily to a point you just become another /r9k/ reject shitposting about feels is when you just lose completely
Well shit. What now?

>> No.3432228 [DELETED] 

>>3431349
>People that get in their heads the idea of "just draw" often end up repeating the same drawing over and over, no matter how many drawing they make they will remain almost the same level.


But how do I know I'm not improving when supposedly it takes hundreds of drawings to start seeing something?

>> No.3432316
File: 111 KB, 325x466, hahahahahaXD.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3432316

>>3419797
>We are all losing to this atm

>> No.3432334

>>3419797
considering the sticky still recommends loomis its advised to steer clear from it

theres a couple floating resources around that are infinitely more helpful to the beginner than the sticky will ever be but i cba to link them right now

>> No.3432347

>>3432228
You're not improving if you're satisfied with your drawings. I think there's a sweet spot of dissatisfaction that indicates improvement.

Maybe I'm just stuck in /beg/

>> No.3432348

>>3432347
If you aren't somewhat satisfied at the end of the day, you will burn out. That said, satisfaction comes from finally being able to do something you've been trying to do all day. If you're not seeing yourself progress, you will get demotivated. This also means that looking back a week or a month should make you cringe somewhat.

>> No.3432351

>>3432348
serious question, what is burn out?

is it basically you get too stressed & quit? why don't they just call it being a little bitch? honestly curious tho

>> No.3432355

>>3432351
Heh burnt out in my IT job in 2015, after traveling I can’t bring myself to do a proper 40hour week since. Pretty serious

>> No.3432365

>>3432351
>>3432355
Burning out in art would feel like losing all motivation, you no longer give the slightest shit about anything art related, no drawings inspire you, the whole thing feels like a waste of effort, you would rather do anything else rather than sit down and scribble out a character or scene. If you burn out it will set you back years or kill any desire to learn art, the final NGMI.
Basically somehow the brain was taught that there is nothing to be gained (status, money) or the opportunity costs are too high (isolation), from the art process so will kill off the maladaptive behaviour.

>> No.3434063

>>3419797
usefull/10

>> No.3434878

>>3432200
quit 4chan and sign up for an art school you non-self-motivating cunt

>> No.3435056

>>3420195
then howd you just do it!?

>> No.3435061

>>3434878
Then what?

>> No.3435287

if you just draw while keeping your thumb lodged up your ass and wiggle it around to loosen up all the poop youd be surprised how good u get, honestly.