/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

[Anonymous No.3288414]

How do I make my pictures look less "western"? There's a certain key aspect I can't figure exactly with japanese artists that I just can't recreate, and it's not related to technique because even less "talented" jap artists have this thing.

[Anonymous No.3288416]

I feel you OP, I wonder about this too
There's something about geniune jap art that westerners can't seem to replicate and it's even present in shitty teeanager jap drawings that have no knowledge of technique

[Anonymous No.3288430]

>>3288414
FOR EXAMPLE

[Anonymous No.3288438]

Change your race lol

[Anonymous No.3288472]

>>3288414
I had this hypothesis that jap artists get that distinct feel from the fact writing Japanese characters for most of their life effects how they approach line art.

[Anonymous No.3288477]

>>3288472
I feel like this has been brought up before by other artists, I forget if there was any real work done to prove/disprove it. I feel like it's less to do with what sort of characters they're writing and more the fact that they're growing up with that media/culture instead of being introduced to it later. To try and describe it in music, I guess it would be the difference between a Brazilian who's grown up around one of the samba schools playing a samba pattern versus someone from America trying to emulate it.

[Anonymous No.3288487]

>>3288414
what aspect fag?? Make a proper thread next time.
>>3288477
im a brazillian and now we are having carnaval, help me get the fuck out of here

[Anonymous No.3288517]

>>3288430
>>3288487
You either know or you don't. If you don't understand don't even respond.

>>3288477
>>3288472
So if I surround myself with japanese culture and live in Japan for a while my drawings will stop look western?

[Anonymous No.3288534]

>>3288517
>So if I surround myself with japanese culture and live in Japan for a while my drawings will stop look western?
can confirm, I stopped playing lol in exchange for azur lane and my drawings started getting a more anime feel to them. don't ask to post my work because it's still beg tear

[Anonymous No.3288535]

>>3288414
idk try writing some Japanese poetry or something. Might reconfigure how you do lineart.

[Anonymous No.3288536]

>>3288414
I think you'll need to unlearn your western way of drawing first.
From my experience japanese artists focus less on shapes and proportions, and more on faces and overall composition. I think this is mostly because of an artistic tradition that is vastly different from western academia.
I'd say to stop doing black and white studies, and focus on drawing faces instead.

[Anonymous No.3288539]

>/ic/
>artwork critique
>10 replies / 0 images / 11 posters
Fuck u anon, put some fucking examples or gtfo, faggot.

[Anonymous No.3288666]

>>3288414
Culturally, Japanese people like negative space. Many western artists fill their drawings without much negative space. Negative space is the key.

[Anonymous No.3288675]

>>3288414
Use more organic shapes. Study the common shapes from more eastern and feminine forms. A lot of south korean digital art would be a good start; much of the fanart of overwatch.

[Anonymous No.3288687]

Post examples so we know what you're talking about anon.

Otherwise, embrace your own culture rather than trying toemulate someone else's.

[Anonymous No.3288689]

I had the same issue. Go look up some Japanese artists drawing live.
https://sketch.pixiv.net/lives

The answer? Speed. The japanese draw unbearably slow compared to western artists. This is not an insult. If you don't believe try to compare with western streamers. And it's not even an issue of years of experience. Even the best of the best take a long ass time to draw a face. That's probably why they die from overwork.

However after emulating their speed I realized how much better and refined the art looks.
I don't know what to do. I like how my art looks when I draw super slow, but I'm going to starve if I don't work quickly.

[Anonymous No.3288690]

>>3288689
Also western styles have evolved to deliver results quickly. Japanese manga is more about being extremely elaborate even if it kills you. Even though I love manga, I think I will die if I try to keep the level of quality.

[Anonymous No.3288695]

>>3288690
Holy shit this, they are incredibly patient, I've seen some artists ctrl+F the same line for minutes

[Anonymous No.3288712]

>>3288414
Study Japanese artists who draw western cartoons to isolate drawing technique from aesthetics.

Everything in this image was drawn by a Japanese animator, noticeably.

[Anonymous No.3288720]

>>3288414
I had this idea swimming around my head. Take it as a hypothesis, but I think the issue, assuming you're talking about drawing girls and making them look anime-pretty, is that Western folk do two things: They draw more details, and they try to make the faces too "different".

While there are Western examples of anime inspired art that are just completely off, the two above listed are some of the easiest tells about whether the artist is Japanese or not. They'll focus on details that Japanese artists would usually ignore, and in addition will round things out where a Japanese person would draw the object more angular. They will try to add more character and flare to the figure, which can very, VERY easily break anime prettiness and result in a character that looks ugly. See pic related: Which one looks closer to what a Japanese person drawing a pretty girl would draw?

[Anonymous No.3288820]

>>3288689
I want you to be wrong, because there's no way I can draw as slow and keep my living. But I know you're probably right.

[Anonymous No.3288841]

>>3288712
Yo, what movie is that in the middle there to the right of Ghostbusters? The one with the princess and the kid? I swear it's this movie I've been trying to remember/find for years.

[Anonymous No.3288843]

>>3288841
Little Nemo.

[Anonymous No.3288844]

>>3288720
left one looks like a racist caricature lel

[Anonymous No.3288847]

>>3288844
It's only racist if she was drawn ugly

[Anonymous No.3288852]

>>3288720
but the left one looks better

[Anonymous No.3288903]

>>3288712
Adventures in Slumberland and Moomin are the only ones that work with that outsource look.

[Anonymous No.3288925]

>>3288414
reposting this compilation someone posted from the dead anime thread.
Might be useful for studying how nips draw faces different from western artists

[Anonymous No.3288943]

>>3288414
>>3288925

I think OP means this feel. Like when a random japanese sketches some doodle, it has a weird feeling to it that is not easy to recreate.

[Anonymous No.3288944]

>>3288943
I wouldn't see this shit coming from japanese people.

[Anonymous No.3288947]

>>3288414
Add anime eye shine to everything. Maximize feminine features, minimize masculine

[Anonymous No.3288948]

>>3288944
because they grow up with that style of art and learn to recreate it

[Anonymous No.3288951]

>>3288943
>Like when a random japanese sketches some doodle, it has a weird feeling to it that is not easy to recreate.

How would you describe that weird feeling?

>inb4 "lol i cant XD"

[Anonymous No.3288952]

>>3288948
oh I see.

then we are kind of fucked?

[Anonymous No.3288954]

Post some western art and anons will try to convert it to eastern style

[Anonymous No.3288956]

>>3288951
the pic dude.
>>3288943

[Anonymous No.3288957]

>>3288948
>>3288952
If you surround yourself and increase your visual library with eastern art, you'll be able to imitate their style.

I can recognize some artworks from >>3288925 coming from western artists and non-nips.

[Anonymous No.3288961]

done by a kr artist

[The Truth No.3288967]

Im 100% right. But there will be autists who ill say im wrong, but if you want to know OP, here it is.

its all placebo effect. There is no magic barrier that separates western from japanese. Ive seen so many chinese, american, korean, philino, brazil and spanish artists pull off japanese style no problem. In fact, there have been a bunch of americans and europeans that already have traveled to japan and worked in anime and manga industry already; usually as back ups. But, the most well known western to do so is Bahi whose a key animator. And, i hate to criticize people, but ive seen lots of japanese artists who make clear perspective and proportion errors in their work that you'd think theyre "western".

Whether you want to admit it or not, you are just flat out jealous. You, OP, you want to be the western artist thats actually got it, and above everyone else, because you do not view japanese or asians as people; you use their race as excuse for you being a shitty drawer. I think the biggest example of this happening, are the people that bash the fuck out of nsio. Usually, they'll pull up a pic from a murata artwork, and be like
>DURR, LOOK, NSIO IS NOT ON THE SAME LEVEL AS THE BEST MANGAKA ARTIST IN THE WORLD
>HE MUST BE SHITTIER THAN EVERY JAPANESE MANGAKA ALIVE
even though, the truth is, if nsio just only spoke japanese, and only uploaded his work on japanese websites, i'd gaurantee you'd see his comics all over ex hentai and such.Its all a giant bias.

There was one study, where the one of the top violinists in the world, a guy who got payed millions from performances, played in the middle of a busy subway. What the study found was that only one person bothered to stop for the music. People would only apprieciate his art, as long as there was a title to it....

And thats /ic/ with western artists. Unless they are japanese, you'll look down on him. And unless the professional is playing in the sydney opera house, you'll look down on him.

[Anonymous No.3288978]

>>3288967
>you use their race as excuse for you being a shitty drawer
but he never said that xd.

[Anonymous No.3288981]

>>3288967
You're not wrong
You've pretty much explained the absolute state of /ic/

[Anonymous No.3288990]

>>3288844
it has a bit of a Mammy Two Shoes vibe

[Anonymous No.3288997]

>>3288944
>I wouldn't see this shit coming from japanese people.

you haven't gone deep enough into pixiv I see.

[Anonymous No.3288999]

>>3288997
>haven't gone deep enough into pixiv
The fucking truth.
Pixiv is japanese deviantart, sometimes even worse. Choose a character you really like, find their tag, go through the first 10 pages and half of it will be objective shit.
Used to browse all the time to find pics of my favorite animu girls but I stopped cause I got tired of seeing about 70% schlock.

[Anonymous No.3289002]

>>3288997
ANON WHATS GOING ON.

[Anonymous No.3289003]

I hear people say this often, that there's some kind of a vague "thing" that Japanese people do that others don't, but I think I think it's because it's simply a "scene" (read: art movement) in the Japanese art community, and by following one person with this aesthetic they will find other artists with the same kind of "thing".

There are plenty of Japanese artist who have what OP would describe as "western feel", but you never see them (or if you do you don't realize they're Japanese) because you're not looking for them.

Like I said here, >>3288997
go to https://www.pixiv.net/new_illust.php?type=all and you'll see what I mean

[Anonymous No.3289034]

>>3288517
>You either know or you don't. If you don't understand don't even respond.

You will never make it as an artist with your supersticious, illogical bullshit. Pick up a drawing of a japanese artist you think "has it". Do a clean and proper study of said drawing. Analyze what you are lacking that is present in the original. Rinse and repeat until you got it and then try to apply it to your own work. You need to start using your brain and de-mystify the process if you ever want to get to where you want to be at as an artist.

[Anonymous No.3289052]

>>3289034
>You will never make it as an artist with your supersticious
I already did tho. I pay my bills with just drawing despite going lightly about it.

[Anonymous No.3289076]

>>3288689
that's not true tho. just watch the Manben, most of the manga artists draw at a decent pace. The slower is Ito and he isn't even that slow.

[Anonymous No.3289077]

>>3289003
>that there's some kind of a vague "thing" that Japanese people do that others don't

There are things that they do that many westerners wanting to draw anime don't do, but it's a problem of willingness rather than innate ability.

Growing up around manga and anime isn't just an early grasp of the aesthetics, it gives them an understanding of what the full scope of drawing is about. Being able to draw imaginatively and confidently is a matter of practicality. They are constantly confronted with the technical realities and limits of printing reproduction and animation. Much of their technique is driven by industry.

For a large number of Japanophiles here, their scope of drawing is very narrow. Their definition of anime doesn't go beyond a single cute face. They believe copying a design is synonymous with designing. No matter how gentle and sincere, they ignore pointers to study fundamental forms and construction, despite Japanese sites like sensei.pixiv and palmie devoting a large number of tutorials to those subjects.

Mentality is the problem. It's a mix of distrust of authority and academia, rebelliousness, contrarianism, insecurity, and lack of patience.

[Anonymous No.3289078]

>>3288414
you don't laugh the same way, you don't cry the same way, you don't fuck the same way, and you don't draw the same way, deal with it.

[Anonymous No.3290171]

>>3288472
If this hypothesis is true then Japanese people that grew up in western nations and never learned japanese characters growing up would have art that looks similar to other westerners art. Can anyone prove this?

[Anonymous No.3290249]

it has something to do with the fact that precision and accuracy are more of a western thing while getting the idea/meaning/essence through rather than accuracy is more of a japanese thing.

See McCloud's explanation of his "big triangle" to understand what I mean:

http://scottmccloud.com/4-inventions/triangle/index.html

[Anonymous No.3290255]

>>3290249
I forgot to add that once you read that you should check out the image I posted and notice that a bunch of japanese artists lean more towards the meaning side (with some exceptions) and this is obviously related to their religion and philosophy and in a minor way their language

of course this is something you can end up bypassing by being more aware of what you're doing or analyzing stylistic choices japanese artists you like do (and I really mean analize them rather than just oh big eye and large titty).

there are a lot of western artists lately that can pass as japanese artists sometimes so I'm sure you can be able to do that too but try thinking about it a little bit more and being curious and more open minded about art.

good luck OP

[Anonymous No.3290258]

Japanese art is all about elegance and efficiency.
It's about being simultaneously simple and precise.
It's about conveying as much information as possible while using the least amount of detail.

[Anonymous No.3290277]

>>3290258
These generalizations don't really work. Especially in manga it is actually quite the opposite. There are lots of mangaka who use exorbitant amounts of detail for everything they draw. Even the ones who draw very stylized and simplified figures tend to draw (or use photos) of backgrounds and props that are as photorealistic as you can get via inking.

Same with many japanese character designers. Artists like Amano or Akihiko Yoshida will maybe draw stylized humans, but then they detail the shit out of any ornament, clothing, weapon hilt, etc to the point where most western artists would call their designs way too overdetailed. So is all japanese design philosophy about elegance and efficiency limited to only the human figure?

[Anonymous No.3290286]

>>3290277
McCloud discusses this in Understanding Comics but I think that it's mostly because the clothes, backgrounds, vehicles, weapons, etc are so detailed because they are something to be appreciated or observed while the characters themselves are something that you have to feel a connection with so they are more symbolic.

if something is more symbolic you fill the details yourself so you have a direct connection with said characters, but if the details are already there you just sit back and appreciate them so there's something you don't connect with, it becomes the"other".

Artists from all over the world do this kind of stuff but japanese artists do this a lot.

For example, if you want the viewer to be in awe of how magnificent a sword is you draw it in detail and in close up but if you want that same sword in a later panel to be the weapon your character is using to attack you draw the same sword with a lot less detail since you're more preoccupied with its function rather than its looks.

[Anonymous No.3290311]

>>3288712
not seeing it. most of those look pretty western to me. and they'd have been copied from western storyboards.

[Anonymous No.3290322]

>>3288472
I'm digging this theory. My art alongside standard western cartooning has a lot of curvature and expression/ abstraction.
Our letters seem bouncy and bubbly were as Japanese characters are very angular and precise mostly.

[Anonymous No.3290328]

>>3288712
America is one shitty ball of outsourcing. They have so many artists and animators in the states begging for work, what the fuck man.
Just pay your people a liveable wage and stop being a cheap bastard.

[Anonymous No.3290331]

>>3288925
One of them is literally a set of cartoon faces with some jap flares.

[Anonymous No.3290333]

>>3288967
They have smaller eyes so they can focus on details easier. Image seeing exceot everything has theatrical black bars around it.

[Anonymous No.3290360]

>>3290331
exactly

[Anonymous No.3290396]

First of all I think mimicking Japanese artwork means unlearning Western design values. In learning art most Western artists learn all sorts of 'rules' and mistakenly assume these rules are objective and universal instead of realizing that they are cultural values. You have to let go of these 'rules' and draw in ways you were previously taught were 'wrong' in order to start making progress.

Japanese artwork is highly iconographic and relies heavily on symbol drawing (depending on the artist's style). Western artists are often discouraged from learning art this way, and you'll see lots of learners being told to study Loomis instead of learning to draw anime directly. While Loomis and life drawing is great for drawing bodies I think it can be a detriment to drawing anime style faces because these faces often have no corresponding 'real' 3d shape or proportion. In fact many of these faces are directly lifted/studied from drawing other anime faces, repeat this multiple times across multiple artists over the years. Anime faces often have impossible angles, perspective and proportions, and it can look great and expressive nonetheless. Expressions especially are very obvious examples of symbol drawing, with things like sweat marks and popping veins, ahegao and blush lines etc as well as body language (characters falling over when embarrassed, noses bleeding when aroused) that have little to no real world equivalent. These expressions, behaviors and character designs function only because they are imbued with cultural meaning. As a matter of character design Japanese artists evidently don't care about same face, especially when going against the grain makes the 'symbol' of the face less efficient at delivering its meaning. A Western artist is told to avoid sameface (some like Bruce Timm know it can be used effectively).

[Anonymous No.3290412]

>>3290396
The anime girl face is in and of itself a symbol, albeit a complex one, that is meant to convey the idea of cuteness. If this sounds weird or wrong to you then you might want to try bringing up the topic with an older person who grew up being taught a different cute aesthetic. My grandmother doesn't really see anime style artwork to be cute, neither does my mom ("They look like bugs"), they just weren't raised with it and you have to learn it.

If this STILL doesn't make sense to you really examine Sanrio characters and ask yourself why they are cute. They are so simplified and abstracted they have no real world equivalent, much the way repeating a word over and over makes it lose its meaning so does analyzing Hello Kitty. Amazon tribes people probably don't find Hello Kitty or Anime Waifu to be cute because they haven't been taught to the way you have. Do you get what I mean by symbols yet?

Japanese artists know and don't care that their artwork is so heavily symbolic. They draw what they think looks good, expressive and delivers the point and they don't feel shame about it. If you want your artwork to in a more authentically anime style stop worrying about sameface, symbol drawing, symbolic expressions, unrealistically cool/cute clothing and incorrect facial perspective. Draw a little more freely, draw fucking anime faces till it looks good like Japanese people do. Loomis is great for a lot of things but may actually set you back here, its not how most Japanese people learn.

[Anonymous No.3290476]

>>3290311
>most of those look pretty western to me
Too bad for you.

>they'd have been copied from western storyboards
You don't seem to understand how storyboarding worked on these older cartoons versus how they are done today. This isn't a flash show where animators slap things together based on a storyboard. The Japanese drew the keyframes, and usually storyboarded themselves.

[Anonymous No.3290488]

>>3290328

This is a two-pronged problem. TV animation has always been cheap, and we don't have enough quality animators to do it.

The Japanese, more than any other animators, focused on making their stuff look good while having limited animation, so they're good for that. The Phillipines, Koreans, and China had really cheap labor, so they're good for that. The Koreans in particular made capital investments in modern animation tools while learning from the Japanese, so they're positioned to be able to do practically every kind of animation production today.

[Anonymous No.3290513]

>>3288925
It's the forehead, think about Vegeta how big his is but you never mind it.

[ああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああ(...) No.3290514]

being russian which is phonetically similar to japanese

its about not being english speaking more than it is about being jap

you just dont have an eastern mindset

tiger parents are like russian parents

you have a better shot at trying to be russian

also pic related

[ああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああ(...) No.3290519]

>>3290514

kooky right

also it would probably help to just lurk futaba channel lol http://www.bluethree.us/futaba/

goto original art

[ああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああ(...) No.3290521]

>>3290519

original art flipside is the porn threa basically

[ああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああ(...) No.3290523]

>>3290521
even found some bitch mentioning proko

The muscles of the back are certainly difficult but the position of the shoulder blades muscle trapezius muscle wide supine muscle sticking to the shoulder blades
There is nothing I can not draw if I grasp it

It has become possible to draw so far without reference

Searching with youtube proko will tell you how to draw

It is the result of the muscle training for one month It is not as stoic as a bodybuilding Sports Long Muscle and Short Muscle
It seems that body shape will also change with how deep muscle train

[Anonymous No.3290527]

>>3288472
>Grew up writing in japanese
>Trying to learn how to draw
>Keep seeing weeaboos saying this shit on /ic/ and only /ic/

Anon, you realize this is 100% not true, right? But I wonder if anyone outside of America believes that writing in english is the only way to draw disney style.

[ああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああ(...) No.3290529]

ERRYBODY ITT

[Anonymous No.3290533]

>>3290514
>pic related
I don't get it

[Anonymous No.3290547]

>>3290396
>While Loomis and life drawing is great for drawing bodies I think it can be a detriment to drawing anime style faces because these faces often have no corresponding 'real' 3d shape or proportion.

Every single time I see a japanese artist draw, they use Loomis head construction though.

[Anonymous No.3290557]

>>3290412
stop trying to give terrible advice on purpose you dumb little crab. Every good anime artist has a strong understanding of volume and perspective. They draw exactly 3 symbols: The eye, the nose and the mouth, everything else is meant to exist in 3 dimensional space. And in many anime styles, even those aren't drawn as actual symbols but still follow the rules of perspective.

[ああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああ(...) No.3290571]

>>3290533

stroke order

the order and direction you draw the lines matter in asianese

[a brief history lesson No.3290573]

"light has weight" - albert einstein

then pic related

anime !

then /ic/ is like buguuuuuh NANI

[Anonymous No.3290574]

>>3290571
ah I get what you mean

my overthinking brainlet thought there's a meaning why the blue section looks like a larger version of the red one but flipped

[Anonymous No.3290594]

>>3288961
>s-stupid sexy weegee

[Anonymous No.3290597]

>>3288967
This

>>3289077
And this.
I think that working on a finished product gets you a lot farther away and more quickly than pursuing a vague goal of "drawing better". And in Japan being confronted with the reality of drawing a manga, for example, is a lot easier due todo the accesibility of presenting your work to a company. In western contries there is more of a disconect beetween wanting to work and actually working.
That doesn't mean that there isn't a bunch of delusional artists in Japan that want to draw manga and yet haven't drawn a single one shot after four years either. But I think the marketplace in Japan facilitates working for a product, and thus, creates the right mentality from the start.
Just my two cents.

[Anonymous No.3290636]

>>3288720
The right one still looks like a western imitation of japanese artstyle.

[Anonymous No.3290645]

>>3288414
The things i have noticed from a lot of good japanese artists are the cleanliness of their strokes and lines and the simplicity. Their artworks are simple, clean, and balanced, Like even if there's a ton of shit and details in them, somehow their artwork doesn't feel messy or constricted.

[Anonymous No.3290721]

>>3290277
>So is all japanese design philosophy about elegance and efficiency limited to only the human figure?
Maybe if you read the image you would've seen where it mentions that very detailed environments and clothing emphasise the elegance of the characters by contrast.
So to answer your question, yes. The philosophy does mainly just apply to the human figure.
That's the only thing that people tend to make a distinction between "western" and "Japanese" art style.
It's not like you can distinguish between random props drawn by a Japanese artist vs a non-Japanese artist.

[Anonymous No.3290821]

>>3290396
>Japanese artists evidently don't care about same face
it's about the eyes for the japanese. note that the clone anime women all have different shape eyes. timm's women have clone eyes too so that comparison doesn't really work

>>3290476
what exactly is so uniquely japanesey about that pinky and the brain one? that dennis the menace one? the chipmunks one? the tiny toons one? explain it to me.

[Anonymous No.3290891]

honestly I think it's cause when a lot of westeners draw in an anime style they're so focused on copying the anime style that they fail to practice actual aestethics. Like when the japanese learn to draw they just wanna make a cute looking face, and they happen to be constantly surrounded by a bunch of anime art that looks really good and they pick up on that stuff. Meanwhile westeners who wanna draw anime-style first draw a normal western drawing with planes of the face and shit like loomis and all the art teachers taught them, and then they're like hurr time to make the eyes super big and pointy nose and chin, cause thats what favorite show sword art online did and it looked so good.

[Anonymous No.3291069]

>>3290821
>what exactly is so uniquely japanesey about that pinky and the brain one?

In stills, you see the solidity of the forms, the balance of the facial features *in perspective*, the crisp yet organic technical line work. These are qualities most animations should have, yet were almost unique to the Japanese-produced cartoons during that era. Few come close except for a small Disney Australia studio.

Watch these in motion, the difference becomes even more glaring. The Japanese approach to low-frame animation is to treat everything as a crisp smear. For them, squash and stretch is for optical effects rather than physical weight. The animation timing has snap, and the poses they hit have meaning.

The combination of technical drawing skills and efficiency allow them to animate complex actions, sequences, and use more dynamic cinematography. Which is why they typically used western storyboards as a very rough guide, or threw them out completely.

[Anonymous No.3291081]

>>3288967
>There was one study, where the one of the top violinists in the world, a guy who got payed millions from performances, played in the middle of a busy subway. What the study found was that only one person bothered to stop for the music. People would only apprieciate his art, as long as there was a title to it....

This and you're entire post.
Worst of all, it's annoying how weebs here on /ic/ find really "neat" books, but it's literally a japanese bridgman. However, the fact that it was in japanese gave that anon more interests even tho the book had less info in it.

[Anonymous No.3291090]

>>3290891
Is this Jazza?

[Anonymous No.3291108]

Japan simply has a richer culture and a deep connection with nature. Long isolation on an island with shinto, buddhism, etc produced a fascination for beauty and ideas that isn't generally communicable to western minds that come from a history of constant war and shifting religions.

iirc there was some interview i read commenting that Japanese kids are generally introduced to drawing through Kachou Fuugetsu (flowers, birds, moons, etc) which are all heavily based on c-curves and provide a huge range of variety and thinking about composition. but this is kind of a meme thing anyway. culture is key. start learning those kanji.

[Anonymous No.3291128]

>>3288472
Idk if this has anything to with what you said but due to the high amount of Manga available in Japan, the Japanese become have become naturally better at Sequential Art compared to other ethnic groups/races.

[Anonymous No.3291134]

>>3288967
>There was one study, where the one of the top violinists in the world, a guy who got payed millions from performances, played in the middle of a busy subway. What the study found was that only one person bothered to stop for the music. People would only apprieciate his art, as long as there was a title to it....

>And thats /ic/ with western artists. Unless they are japanese, you'll look down on him. And unless the professional is playing in the sydney opera house, you'll look down on him

Amazing. /ic/ and /a/ in a nutshell

[Anonymous No.3291146]

>>3288517
>If you don't understand don't even respond.
But... you literally don't understand it. That's why you can't explain it. LUL NGMI

[Anonymous No.3291147]

>>3289052
proof or no one cares

[Anonymous No.3291151]

>>3288967
>There was one study, where the one of the top violinists in the world, a guy who got payed millions from performances, played in the middle of a busy subway. What the study found was that only one person bothered to stop for the music. People would only apprieciate his art, as long as there was a title to it....
Typical brainlet only substantiates his hypothesis and never analyzes the full range of data. People pay to go see the violin player when they actively want to watch them perform. Comparing that to a situation with a plethora of different factors (in the middle of the street) is pointless unless you account for said factors. People are busy, the audience is different, many people likely don't recognize them or care for the music, I could go on and on. If all you look at is famous person -> public -> no one cares -> ITS ALL A GOVERNMENT SHAM then you're a brainlet through and through. Account for ALL OF THE DATA, not just the data you need to make your conclusion and brush the rest off as meaningless.

[Anonymous No.3291158]

>>3288967
Nah, you're wrong. Places like Japan, Korea, China etc are completely different societies. You're expected to perform at your absolute peak potential in all fields of your life. If you are an artist, you spend every working moment trying to master all avenues, searching for even the smallest way you can edge out the competition and come through successful. You can't expect someone from western society to compare to that. Here we are allowed to give up, feel sorry for ourselves, try all academic avenues until we "find ourselves", our parents are supportive in our lethargy, nothing is really expected of us aside from passing high school. Mediocrity is a huge aspect of western life, it's the main crutch of celebrity worship.

In other words, while you're making a sandwich in preparation for netflix/playan games/shitposting on 4chan, Hideki Tomoko is drawing his fingers away until he's bleeding. And you will never, ever compare to that unless you seek a supernatural level of discipline, which is what they have. That's the """secret""". Discipline. They run on the idea that if they fail, it's death or a fate worse than that. Over here, it's "Whatever, guess I'll go into engineering".

[Anonymous No.3291173]

>>3291158
while the super-hardworking asian meme is certainly true it only explains quality but not aesthetic choice or design. little chan grinding all possible paths doesn't produce anything but garbage or copies of real artists. whereas there is some really fine artwork in asia.

[Anonymous No.3291187]

>Meanwhile in Japan

[Anonymous No.3291191]

>>3291187
she's cute
would marry.

[Anonymous No.3291218]

>>3291069
>weeaboos

[Anonymous No.3291616]

>>3288961
Do they have a blog?

[Anonymous No.3291713]

>>3291616
https://twitter.com/redlhz?lang=en

[Anonymous No.3291714]

>>3291713

[Anonymous No.3292709]

>>3290571
More than in English? I remember as a kid when I was first learning to write (native English), we were instructed on stroke order/direction too.

[Anonymous No.3292718]

What's wrong with western art? Italian and french drawing styles are still okay. It's the America tumblr style that is trash

[Anonymous No.3292720]

>>3292718
I wish people would just say "cartooning" rather than "western art", because we all know that's what they mean when they say "western art". We're comparing the cartooning styles of different countries here, and yes Japanese cartoons are still cartoons. Pic related, it's a Japanese cartoon.

[Anonymous No.3292721]

>>3288967
>There was one study, where the one of the top violinists in the world, a guy who got payed millions from performances, played in the middle of a busy subway. What the study found was that only one person bothered to stop for the music. People would only apprieciate his art, as long as there was a title to it....
>And thats /ic/ with western artists. Unless they are japanese, you'll look down on him. And unless the professional is playing in the sydney opera house, you'll look down on him.

Or maybe people bustling through a busy subway have fucking places to be and can't just plonk down in the middle of everything to listen to an impromptu concert while all the other commuters trip over them, while air pollution erodes their lungs, and while noise pollution destroys any ability to enjoy the music they're listening to.
Suggesting that a violinist on the street will be just as good a listening experience as seeing them in a fucking opera house, specially constructed for great acoustics and comfort, is devaluing as fuck to the fucking opera house.

In addition, just because a performer can fill concert halls with fans, doesn't mean those same fans will make up anywhere near a significant portion of strangers walking through a subway. In fact, to presume as much puts the violinist in a dangerously egotistical bubble.
Not to mention that most of the people who can afford to be interested in high arts can generally also afford to not commute through the fucking subway.

AND ANOTHER THING, the value attached to a violinist in a concert vs on the street is also an issue of context. People playing music in the street is so common that it gets tuned out (especially during a fucking busy commute but I've covered that). How many times a day do we pass a store selling something that we'll later buy when context compels us? That doesn't fucking mean we judged it to have no value back when we didn't need it.

[Anonymous No.3292734]

>>3292718
I think we're mostly talking about the american cartoony/tumblr style. European cartoons are great in it's own way

[Anonymous No.3292735]

>>3292720 (cont.)
Are you going to compare that to this? Are the two even comparable, or is one in a very different league than the other, by virtue of one being a painting that's to be enjoyed on its own and the other being art that's meant to be connected to and rely on a source story?

[Anonymous No.3292738]

I like to imagine that I can kind of do it but I think I'm just lying to myself

[Anonymous No.3292753]

itt MAGIC OF AZN

no, you only see the good shit being published as manga or posted online. There is a *lot* of garbage out there, go browse pixiv for 5 minutes for some impressively deviantart tier work. Your work doesn't have that that final finish because you're comparing your work to published artists who have been working on developing their style and work for years.

[Anonymous No.3292757]

>>3288967
Weebs need to read the posts and get red pilled already.

[Anonymous No.3292759]

>>3292738
you can tell it's western but that isnt a bad thing

[Anonymous No.3292796]

>>3292738
for some reason western artists tend to use thicker lines and lower resolution than the jap counterpart

[Anonymous No.3292848]

>>3292738
>tfw I'm not even japanese but can draw anime perfectly fine

Feels good.

[Anonymous No.3292856]

>>3288414
The amount of stupidity compressed into such little text is impressive.

[Anonymous No.3292886]

>>3288414
Embrace it
Understand it
Circumvent it

[Anonymous No.3292940]

>>3292848
Post werk

[Anonymous No.3295446]

>>3290412
My grandmother once said that anime girls like like Aryans.

[Anonymous No.3295448]

>>3290821
>pic related

That girl's legs are really fucked

[Anonymous No.3295482]

>>3295448
She's a spider, her legs are short, it's her design.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcAZioikfZs

[Anonymous No.3295515]

>>3295482
kek, paused on a frame where her arm was on the foreground.
kinda wish I never found she was so homely, though.

[Anonymous No.3295520]

Squint your eyes when you draw

[Anonymous No.3295533]

>>3288414
Eat more Rammen and reduce the size of your dick to 10cm, you fucking weeaboo :D

[Anonymous No.3295535]

>>3288472
art historian here: you're correct. but it isnt your hypothesis, its an actual academic analysis. the arts of the culture adheres to the given writing system, like how arabic art looks like baroque filigrees, or how russians can draw what you think is the "anime" quality easily.

eastern art too has a distinctive look with emphasized lines and a focus upon brush strokes, whether detailed, simplistic, thick, or thin. it is the same with asian people needing to wear glasses/contacts and being better with math, they start out with a complex system before the beginning inside of the codes of their genetic haplogroup, but that nature needs to be nurtured.

western born asian people with little to no writing/math system also learn to read, draw, write and do math in a western way, and are hindered the same way you are. consider iwao takamoto who designed scooby doo, or glen murakamis teen titans; their arts suggest anime/manga, but it looks like 100% american work, with glen tossing in handfuls of whatever he thinks are "anime" aspects (clumped hair, no jaw, super deformed reactions, oversized flat eyes) without being able to make it look authentic.

you are like murakami, grasping at art that you will never really be able to create, but the sad part is that you arent japanese.

[Anonymous No.3295536]

>>3291069
I’ve never read something more pretentious in my life.

[Anonymous No.3295539]

>>3292738
Make the nose smaller and you’ll be good. Westerners really like big noses for some reason.

[Anonymous No.3295546]

Is there even one Japanon on /ic/? I’d luke to know what he would think. I think it’d be more useful to be told by actual nips what we’re doing wrong.

I don’t even want to mimick manga that much. I just hate being able to tell when an artwork is made by me. I have a unique style that sucks

[Anonymous No.3295578]

>>3290258
>>3290721
>>3290277
Good example with SEL, also apparently Yoshitoshi does not use a ruler at all for his drawings, all lines by hand only, no assistance, I don't know if thats true or not

[Anonymous No.3295579]

>>3295578

[Anonymous No.3295580]

>>3295579

[Anonymous No.3295584]

>>3295580

[Anonymous No.3295588]

>>3295584
So you have an incredible level of detail, accuracy, mechanical complexity and thick linework in contrast to the simpler, less detailed character, as that anon mentioned >>3290258

But what if this is just one artists style? There are many different styles of artists in Japan but this thread talks like they all share common elements, and maybe thats true.

[Anonymous No.3295589]

>>3295588
And colored.

[Anonymous No.3295593]

>>3295578
>>3295579
>>3295580
>>3295584
SEL is one of the most boring anime I’ve ever watched and its visual style is obnoxious. I don’t know why people hold it in such high regard.

[Anonymous No.3295595]

>>3295593
Okay /a/ but we're talking about the manga artwork specifically here

[Anonymous No.3295601]

>>3295589
>cuts of the foot
this fucking goi

[Anonymous No.3295605]

[Anonymous No.3295610]

>>3288414
There was a really good and long thread about this very same idea of Japanese art being distinctly different from Western art in blatant but also more subtle ways

https://desuarchive.org/a/thread/166530182/#166530182

[Anonymous No.3295627]

>>3295546
I'm Japanese but I just started drawing last year so I can't help you much. One thing I noticed is that western art values realism while we prefer symbolism much more. It's just a difference of attitude towards nature and not a problem of which is good or bad. As for the relation of writing system and drawing, I have no idea. There are many Japanese people who are bad at hand writing but good at art.

[Anonymous No.3295631]

>>3295578
Nihei Tsutomu also doesn't use ruler. I saw his streaming once. He said he didn't know photo shop had ruler tool so he put a real ruler to the display but it didn't work well. So he just started drawing straight lines manually.

[Anonymous No.3295632]

>>3295627
are you ethnically a nip or are you a foreigner living in japan? Do you speak the language? I’m moving there next year.

[Anonymous No.3295648]

>>3295632
I speak Japanese and my ethnicity is Japanese. I like western cartoonish art style so I often browse ic.

>moving there next year
Good luck. Actually we don't hate foreigners at all. Big city is safe and comfortable for travelers and visitors. But when you start to live here, you will find the society is not very much open to you. It's not a matter of racism or xenophobia, it's just that the Japanese are not used to foreigners, for us it is still an unusual thing.

[Anonymous No.3295654]

>>3295648
>Actually we don't hate foreigners at all
You have every right to

[Anonymous No.3295661]

>>3295535
nice post

I say its japanese hiragana + nuke trauma

[Anonymous No.3295664]

>>3295631
That looks better anyway. No idea why so many artists want to have their work look all sterile and perfect without any character and personality coming through in their lines.

[Anonymous No.3295666]

>>3295535
The problem with your analysis is that you somehow think anime art is this unattainable gold standard when in reality, it is by far amongst the easiest styles for anyone to learn. Most good western artists don't draw anime not because they can't do it, but because the skill ceiling is simply too low for their taste, plus there is no real industry where they are from.

[Anonymous No.3295669]

>>3290514
idk if the japanese are being taught proper calligraphic style like the people in this thread are suggesting. just like how we aren't taught cursive anymore or how to write in different types of script in classes in the US.


a lot of people don't even know how to write common kanji anymore since you literally just type them

[Anonymous No.3295678]

How do these look so far?

[Anonymous No.3295685]

>>3295678
not bad, but the right ones a bit obscene, while the left is holding back.

think im full of it? ok. the right one is a mix of many and doesnt read right away. it looks like she is smug. for what? but why are her eyes like that? they seem extremely tired. seems like the smug expression of an older woman.
also small technical detail. eyebrows are completely off.

the left. this cute girl is clearly shocked. but for what? something happening in her periphery, or at least suggests that she is turning away, about to flee. either way, she is visibly recoiling. but why hold back? why leave it as a drawing with one foot in the door? go all the way. it just looks like something mildly upsetting is happening, perhaps shes just pretending to be upset to fit the mood of the social situation. Just playing along. Nothing serious at all. Maybe her friend pressed play on the netflix show when she said shed wait for her.
japs go straight for the expression idea they need to convey and thats it.
>inb4 haha i traced that from a manga
jokes on you i typed this all up on the toilet and thanks to my brainfog i wont remember this in a couple minutes.

[Anonymous No.3295686]

>>3295685
I honestly don't know what to take from this

[Anonymous No.3295726]

>>3295535
can you explain why voltron, despite being outsourced to korea, looks about as american as teen titans does? im really curious about how this fits into your analysis!

[Anonymous No.3295730]

>>3295726
do they outsource the character designs? or just the slave labor

[Anonymous No.3295742]

>>3295685
Are you high?

[Anonymous No.3296019]

>>3295685

[Anonymous No.3296049]

>>3295726
their noses.

[Anonymous No.3296060]

Only Japanese artists who got good make it to the west. The rest is just confirmation bias.

[Anonymous No.3296063]

>>3296060
That still looks better than anything I can do.

[Anonymous No.3296084]

>>3295627
I reversed searched that picture and apparently the japanese think that their art is below average when compared to everyone else. Why would anyone want to copy our calarts garbage?

On that note, the guy who made the picture says the japanese focus more on linework whereas westerners focus on shading. I can kind of see that he's talking about as the japanese don't often use gradients in their drawings. He is japanese himself so I think his word is more valuable than /ic/s. I don't know.

[Anonymous No.3296099]

>>3296084
I guess what I'm saying is that the japanese are experts in communicatingeverything about their drawing using only lines whereas westerners rely on things like color, gradients, ect. When you trace over an anime drawing it looks presentable because the colors and shading were an afterthought whereas tracing over a cartoon looks unfinished and unintersting because not all the key elements are there. That's just my two cents.

[Anonymous No.3296120]

Is this a meme thread? I can't tell.

[Anonymous No.3296837]

Most anime faces look exactly the same, the globally succesful ones are the ones that look different(One Piece, DBZ, boku no pico acedemia, Naruhodo etc.)
They mostly focus on the hair and clothing to differentiate one from another.
Also I wanted to point out that Asians have slanted eyes, and that it would be a reason why their traditional art looks different (that and the less vibrant colours) but then I remembered desunime characters, and that looks not even remotely like a japanese person.

Just do art study of some preferred nip-artists, and post reference next time.

[Anonymous No.3296840]

>>3288943
>Emoticon tier lack of face details, and negative space.
Ftfy.

[Anonymous No.3297199]

>>3295482
Damn that's really good.

What went wrong?

[Anonymous No.3297211]

>>3297199
Bob Clampett was the best WB cartoon director, it's a fact.

[Anonymous No.3297258]

since this is a thread with japanese anon's lurking in it, does 2chan have an equivalent of /ic/? What do they post there?

[Anonymous No.3297290]

>>3297258
https://zip.2chan.net/11/futaba.htm
What do you think they post? Drawings, progress, redlines, suggestions, etc.

[Anonymous No.3297315]

>>3290514
>phonetically
It has nothing to do with phonetics you cretin.

[Anonymous No.3297320]

>>3295654
t. brainlet

[Anonymous No.3297348]

>want to draw anime in japan
>Well that's fuckin nerdy, but maybe get a job as an assistant to a mangaka or go to animation school. Also there's tons of tutorials from japanese pros and entire book sections on stuff like drawing panties and boobs

>want to draw anime in the west
>What are you doing? Why are you drawing that shit?? You'll never get a job doing anime! They don't teach anime at schools! If i see you drawing anime trash you get an F. Books are "how to draw manga" by HART. Try your own unique style with huge jew noses on anime characters!

Hmm, I wonder

[Anonymous No.3297353]

>>3288472

maybe, one of the most distinct things in Anime, even shitty ones is that their lines are extremely thin, as if it was made of hairs ( real human hairs) instead of lines.

[Anonymous No.3297357]

>>3296837

>They mostly focus on the hair and clothing to differentiate one from another.

THIS, designing an Anime character has more in common with a MMORPG character creator than graphic design, creating a cartoon for example, is like making a logo.

One of the reasons why dragon ball and post red ribbon dragon ball are way less "cringy" than lets say SAO or whatever bug eyed/thin line anime is because of the BIG BOLD BLACK lines that evoke BEATING THE SHIT OUT OF PEOPLE.

[Anonymous No.3297377]

>>3290311

Agree, they look more 3d-ish and a bit more detailed but still ugly.

[Anonymous No.3297381]

>>3290488

Yeah but you know how people in countries with universal cheap labor live? they are all crammed in small concrete houses/ apartments and use public transport, i am an AMERICAN and I deserve a big wooden house, a big truck and a gun on under my pillow.

[Anonymous No.3297387]

>>3288967

Yeah, now tell us why cartoons can't be waifus.

[Anonymous No.3297598]

>ITT: retarded pseudosciencce
>175 replies anyways
too much /ic/ for today, imma debate with brainlets in /sci/ now

[Anonymous No.3297638]

>>3288967
What is stopping someone from making a Japanese persona and communicating entirely in Japanese to pretend they're native? That's what I intend to do. And then when I'm at retirement age of 65 I'll make a tweet or whatever is around at that time letting all the weebshits know that I was a black man all along.

[Anonymous No.3297643]

>>3297638
>what's stopping them
Um, the language barrier? Isn't it obvious? Japanese is hard as fuck.

[Anonymous No.3297663]

>>3297643

/djt/ faggot

it's not that hard

[Anonymous No.3297752]

>>3297387
Diff anon
I'm more of a westaboo guy. I prefer cartoon waifus but tend to draw anime aesthetics on my cartoony pieces

[Anonymous No.3297793]

>>3297752
Sexualizing western characters is hard as fuck. Finding the best balance between on model and hot is a tough task.

[Anonymous No.3297821]

>>3295535
Once I learned hiragana I noticed that my art style started to change, it also helped my English handwriting. Now people say my art is anime even though I'm trying to make it look western.

[Anonymous No.3297824]

>>3297821
are you memeing?

[Anonymous No.3297841]

>>3297793
prolly why I prefer westaboo artists than generic animu ones. I like the aesthetic of both cartoon and anime combined

[Anonymous No.3297844]

>>3297793
Makes for a really good exercise, actually.

[Anonymous No.3297865]

>>3291158
In other words, japanese people are sad and gay.

[Anonymous No.3298078]

>>3297663
protip: anglos are complete shit at japanese
professional english translations are some of the biggest travesties against literature I have ever seen

t. former translator

[Anonymous No.3298093]

>>3297841
#metoo

[Anonymous No.3298098]

>>3297841

>aesthetic of both cartoon and anime combined

That's just giving cartoons a more 3D feel and consistency.

There is something special about anime, the characters feel like "people", at least that's how I see it.

[Anonymous No.3298108]

>>3298098
What's the difference between anime girl and Disney princess? Disney characters are sometimes rotoscoped and their movement looks more natural.

[Anonymous No.3298111]

>>3288967
>There was one study, where the one of the top violinists in the world, a guy who got payed millions from performances, played in the middle of a busy subway. What the study found was that only one person bothered to stop for the music. People would only apprieciate his art, as long as there was a title to it....
Your other stuff is on point and summarizes most of the 'how do i become anime god /ic/?' posters but this one music thing that keeps getting parroted is annoying as fuck. Here in NYC and over in DC, where this 'stunt' was performed, there is no shortage of fucking amazing musicians in the subway. Most people commute to get to work, get home, get to school, appointments, etc.. so it's rare that people will just... stand around... and miss their train in order to hear some jackoff fellate his violin unless they're students, tourists or retirees. Especially for only 45 minutes during rush hour where missing your train means you're late to work- from my experience crowds only really pop up around musicians in the evenings, when people are usually not rushing somewhere and can afford to stick around to appreciate some good tunes. You also have to realize that not everyone digs or is into classical music, so maybe they thought it was neat but not that big of a deal because they've heard 50 other violinists in the subway before over the course of a year. If anything, playing anonymously was a great equalizer because stranger aren't fellating him due to his title and whatever he performed wasn't appealing enough for the masses to pay him mind.

[Anonymous No.3298184]

>>3298108
rotoscoping hardly means the movement looks more natural. disney princesses are fully designed and leave nothing to the interpretation of the viewer's imagination. because anime characters make heavier use of symbols and are more abstract, their facial expressions and mannerisms speak louder than the comparative realism of disney princesses. when anime characters make the really exaggerated and distorted face, you know the emotions they're conveying. the voice work is also very different between the two but that's not part of the discussion.

[Anonymous No.3298193]

>>3288967
Normies don't give a flying fuck about violinists regardless of their reputation among rich pompous faggots whom they despise

[Anonymous No.3298204]

idk how to explain it but when i was in class in school i would get bored and put my head on my desk (put your left arm on the table and rest the left side of your face on your elbow area) then draw

and my shit looked like anime! I think it has to do with the western style being a vertical and to make it eastern the ways your eyes rest when you draw like this makes it horizontal

but you don't have to take my word for it, try it yourself!

[Anonymous No.3298223]

>>3298204
now this is pseudoscience

>>3297598
take note

[Anonymous No.3298230]

>>3298204
this is pseudoscience but honestly makes some sense. look at a lot of the buildings aside from skyscrapers and it's very low, only a few stories tall. there is definitely a tradition of building densely but widely. a lot of japanese art is more widely formatted and landscape than portrait. with manga as well you can fit more wide images on a page than vertical images. so i think you might be onto something with horizontal being a more traditional accentuation of eastern art, the portraits in older art seem to be from a much more western influence in the 1800s than something they naturally came about. a lot of japanese work i've seen is 3 vertical pieces that make up a whole picture. ukiyo e has some better illustration taking advantage of a primarily vertical canvas but a lot of them are still wide. this isn't a single trick to creating more eastern art but it's interesting to think about.

[Anonymous No.3298237]

>>3298184

To me is completely the opposite, I think Anime characters are far more realistic.

[Anonymous No.3298660]

>>3298204
Fucking murrican autists

[Anonymous No.3298724]

>>3295678
looking good anon

[Anonymous No.3298730]

>>3296837
>>3297357
Absolutely this, and there is nothing wrong with this either. Distinct looking faces is a cultural value.

[Anonymous No.3298742]

>>3298184
>>3298237
Actual reality is unrealistic when presented in fiction because it's way too mundane. You don't want to look at pic related in anime because otherwise you'd be watching live action.

[Anonymous No.3298772]

>>3298742
Not sure what your point is. That was one of the best shows of that season, I enjoyed it greatly and the rotoscoping despite it not being liked by the average anime watching pleb.

[Anonymous No.3298881]

>>3297841
Source of artist?

[Anonymous No.3298884]

>>3296084
>Why would anyone want to copy our calarts garbage?
Because all of western art isn't limited to one amerikkkan art school? And if you start bringing out the actual historical artists, the kind from the tradition that practically invented the concept of art, the west obviously would scare the shit out of any anime cartoonist.

[Anonymous No.3298886]

>>3298772
>not being liked by the average anime watching pleb.
You see.
>because otherwise you'd be watching live action

[Anonymous No.3299002]

>>3297598
>Logical fallacies
>Calls others brainlets.
Haha yes.

[Anonymous No.3299016]

>>3295535
>grasping at art that you will never really be able to create, but the sad part is that you arent japanese.
So anyone that isn't japanese will never be good at anime? Seems bullshit to me

[Anonymous No.3299038]

>>3298884
Is that comic page seriously supposed to be an example of western art that scares the shit out of "anime cartoonists"? Man....
>"Look, bright explosions! ROCKETS! BOOM! WAM! WOF! Don't pay attention to the hilariously bad perspective grade schooler drawing in the last panel"

There are completely unknown third rate doujin porn artists who are ten times the draftsmen that guy is. Watch your only response being "It's done by *insert famous name*, you're a pleb for not liking *famous name*, he's a legend and stuff."

[Anonymous No.3299039]

are we past the shitposting by anons who have only taken drawing advice from /ic/ without even reading the sticky, yet?

[Anonymous No.3299049]

>>3299038
>Is that comic page seriously supposed to be an example of western art that scares the shit out of "anime cartoonists"? Man.
no, there I was talking about actual artists, like caravaggio or whomever

metabarons is just illustrated very well, although I assume part of it is just because they've got more time to put into it what with it all being in color and all, but it's clearly not something a japanese artist would scoff at, especially since it's also very different from their comics. Calling it calarts garbage is being ignorant at best

but the japanese are much better than gimenez is at layout and flow of dialogue (or that might be jodorowskys responsibility), metabarons reads as pretty crowded and disjointed desu

[Anonymous No.3299134]

Honestly I feel it could come from the environment in which japanese children grow up in more than anything. They live in a culture where there is very very little diversity, most of their peers have dark hair and have distinct features to their eyes. The standard of beauty in their country is more correlated to cute/young looking than western standards which vary all over the place but put more mature and chiseled faces at the top.
This probably sounds racist but I feel theres something to it when the people around you have widely vary features like in america, where we have every race imaginable so details of the face and hair become very distinct identifiers to children trying to draw what they see. If all of your peers have dark straight hair, the cut of it matters more and adding fanciful colors becomes your logical next step when trying to define your characters. Western kids have it very easy in that all of their characters will have varying types of hair and a whole range of colors that they will imitate with crayons and markers because it feels more readable to use the actual color and style of someones hair to define them as opposed to a japanese child who will automatically use a dark color and have to worry more about the detail of how its cut.
This is not at all saying that hurr durr asian people all look alike, the variety in features everyone sees while growing up and developing those basic drawing skills is just very different. Western cartoons used to be extremely focused on silhouette and exaggeration of features while japanese cartoons tend to keep a specific set of proportion and add detail in clothing/hair rather than vary the shape of their characters.
How we approach drawing eyes as children is probably the biggest factor. American children will almost always draw a closed circle with a dot in it, we see that as the standard symbol for an eye and our children watch cartoons filled with this sort of symbol drawing.

[Anonymous No.3299158]

>>3299134
But some anime has eyes where they are closed circles with dots along with traditional cartoon like noses and even then you can still tell it’s anime. That’s what we’re trying to figure out.

[Anonymous No.3299165]

>>3299158
We've reached a time where we're sharing aesthetics. Steven Universe is one of our biggest cartoons and its anime influences are bleeding out of it. Panty and Stocking was a huge hit and it was largely influenced by invader zim and stuff like powerpuff girls. These are really specific examples but stuff is starting to cross over. Also you have think about how popular animation is in japan. In the US we get like 12 animated series that are currently going so they all have to look very different to hold ratings and interest. Japan has the freedom to make hundreds of series because its normal for adults to watch cartoons there and so every subject matter can be explored without a massive difference in style.

[Anonymous No.3299168]

>>3299165
>because its normal for adults to watch cartoons there

lol no, it's seen as childish over there too. Manga is acceptable.

They make hundreds of shows per season because anime has a global audience mainly in the west. Japan has dominated the cartoons industry and they intend to hold onto this title for as long as possible.
>but but my based japan only cares about domestic market sales
Yeah only the VN industry and all the obscure niche series no one but maybe /jp/ would bring up.

Just in the last few years we had a boom of anime theater showings in the sates. It went up a huge percentage all because anime is getting more and more accepted.

[Anonymous No.3299219]

>>3299165
>We've reached a time where we're sharing aesthetics.
Manga and Anime has half of it's roots in western illustration and animation, there has been a sharing of aesthetics from the beginning. Leave it to a weeb to get the history wrong.

[Anonymous No.3299232]

>>3299219
Well yeah but after getting started, japan very clearly began creating its own unique vision of what animation and cartooning should be, and now we're hitting a point where things are mixing again. There's no need to be a twat.

[Anonymous No.3300241]

>>3299165
Steven Universe is as far from anime as you can possibly get barring adventure time. It's the epitome of cal arts bullshit.

[Anonymous No.3300248]

>>3298881
ruki32_32

[Anonymous No.3300324]

>>3299165
SU has anime influence, sure, but you'd never mistake it for an anime in any way.

[Anonymous No.3300337]

>>3300248
argh shame he only does doodles. Wish he would make some polished works

[Anonymous No.3300619]

>>3288967
/ic/ btfo

[Anonymous No.3300680]

>>3300337
>>3300248
My bad it's musha8_8
they have similar styles I confuse these two a lot

[Anonymous No.3300698]

>>3299168
>They make hundreds of shows per season because anime has a global audience mainly in the west.

Lol majority of Japanese studios don't give a fuck about Westerners.

[Anonymous No.3300710]

>>3298742
This is the most correct reply in the entire thread

Good cartoons, east or west, are symbols rather than realism; when you strive for realism and cartoons is when you get shitty lumpy tumblr art

[Anonymous No.3300722]

>>3300698
lol that's because majority of Japanese """studios""" aren't big budget in the first place and thus carter to domestic markets. And then you have your big sextuple studios that do try their dandiest to appeal globally.

[Anonymous No.3300738]

I want to know this too.
I feel like I just need to grind fundamentals and just copy a shit ton of japanese art but I don't know
how do I make mine look less western

[N No.3300755]

>>3300722
No Japanese studio including the big ones cater to Overseas unless they're getting paid to create an anime, otherwise they always put their Domestic audience first.

[Anonymous No.3300829]

>>3300738
That actually looks really close to anime style damn near perfect actually especially the qt on the bottom, I think you're really close to it anon, ganbatte

[Anonymous No.3300837]

>>3300755
probably because we just pirate everything lol

[Anonymous No.3300850]

>>3288414
I feel like nowadays western arts can replicate Japanese are with all the tools and resources we have on the internet. It feels like now we have good arts who can do it and a fuck ton of bad artists who can't. We see more of our bad artists because they post on the websites we use but not as much bad jap artists because they use different websites and bad art isn't as shared cross borders as good art is.

When anime was firsts getting introduced to the US we had artists who knew nothing on the subject writing shitty books for the sake of selling copies. It showed a whole generation how not to draw it.

[Anonymous No.3300854]

>>3299219
>Manga and Anime has half of it's roots in western illustration and animation
copying some deer's eyes is hardly an aesthetic root. try looking at everything else going on in an anime face. the eye design just fit really well and it was taken like a fish out of the ocean. they didn't incorporate the fish's entire family and culture. that shitty design has been mostly phased out anyway.

actual anime aesthetics are based upon the culture. you have those digging into deep historical and mythological elements and the degenerates that cherry pick aspects they find amusing.

[Anonymous No.3300858]

>>3300850
western imitations of anime are often very obvious and very disturbing. the construction methods and autistic focus of depth that gets ingrained into every beginner gives it away. also color schemes, line variety, composition.

[Anonymous No.3300860]

>>3288414
Some things that separate westerners from the japs I've noticed include, but are not limited to
>noses
Westerners for some reason really like bigger and more defined noses than the japanese. Even when a jap draws in a style that has a distinct nose it's "sharper" and "smoother", whereas a westerner will often include too much detail, like the nostril or a weird line that separates the tip of the nose from the rest and make it stand out in general. See tumblr nose for an extreme example.
>mouth
Again, westerners give the mouth too much details, especially including the upper lip.
>facial features and proportions of the head
This one is difficult to generalize, but try studying the placement and sizes of different facial features. Western faces often feel too "full" or overcrowded and the girls especially have manjaws.

[Anonymous No.3300899]

The difference is simple. Anime looks younger. Big head, big eyes, small nose. In short, characters look always immature. Male character looks less muscular. While female character is often given a mature body but that's merely for sex appeal and details like shoulders or fingers are still immature.

[Anonymous No.3300900]

>>3300899
Sorry wrong pic. I meat this one.

[Anonymous No.3300902]

why are people trying to make their trashy western comics look eastern anyway? please don't. it's dishonest and I doubt it will go well. good artistic skill eclipses style.

[Anonymous No.3300906]

>>3300902
We have a case where a very large group of dedicated artists simply cannot draw a certain style such that it's indistinguishable from other works in that style. It's a pretty interesting problem and worthy of discussion, in my opinion.

If someone actually discovered what the difference is (though, I doubt that would happen in this thread), it could be pretty valuable in regards to how to study in general.

[Anonymous No.3300910]

>>3300902
western cartoons in eastern style looks great

[Anonymous No.3300913]

>>3300906
western artists are used to copying each other because they share a common history of killing and stealing from another. they share common ground in how they relate to reality. this link starts to break when it goes into eastern art and reaches a kind of apex with the art of an eastern heavily isolationist nation. i don't think that's very interesting. in fact, it's a bit disturbing.

[Anonymous No.3300918]

>>3300910
>western trash looks better when aesthetics are actually applied for once.
literally the only thing that makes those cartoons look even half appealing is the cultural injection they have been given. everything that hasn't or failed to be copied over looks simply terrible and the juxtaposition ruins the whole thing.

[Anonymous No.3300920]

>>3300910
I think this kind of mixed style is better than a copy of anime. Every original art is born from chemistry of different style.

[Anonymous No.3300922]

>>3288414
It's as simple as copying and studying your favorite artist (western or eastern). There's no secret formula. If you study their works long enough, you'll get the gist of how their style and aesthetic works and eventually develop your own style

[Anonymous No.3300926]

[Anonymous No.3300929]

>>3290891
Don't tell me the one on the right is supposed to be an example of what anime style looks like.

[Anonymous No.3300930]

>>3300913
autism

[N No.3300946]

>>3300902
People wanna be like their idols

[N No.3300948]

>>3300710
What about Anime and Manga like Berserk and Vagabond? Where do they fit?

[Anonymous No.3300959]

>>3300946
what idols? the typical DA shitter copying anime or the typical tard here can't even name a single japanese artist. it isn't idolization. it's kids copying popular stuff without even being part of the culture. i see this all the time by people like saki-chan and her wannabes. they make gross fanart for communities they aren't even a part of.

[Anonymous No.3300968]

>>3300948
Vagabond is the opposite of realism. It's like Japanese ink art and ink art is symbolism.

[Anonymous No.3300991]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzQ6gRAEoy0
>how do i make my music sound less "western"?
turns out this is so difficult you end up just hiring japanese staff.

[Anonymous No.3301022]

>>3292738
Ditch the shadow over the nose.

[Anonymous No.3301141]

nose or no nose? which is True Japanese Style?

[Anonymous No.3301167]

>>3300860
Are you seriously equating a few drawings to all of Western art?

/I/ fucking draw basic-ass mouths and minimalist noses but no one says I draw anime, and I picked up the technique off of other western artists. Western art teachings EMPHASIZE that women have curves where men have angles, hence why tutorials advice rounded jaws for women and angular jaws for men.

You don't know what you're talking about.

[Anonymous No.3301175]

>>3290891
that reminded me of something

[Anonymous No.3301372]

>>3301167
Idk I think his assesment is pretty accurate. Americans draw ugly as noses.

[Anonymous No.3301387]

>>3301141
Katsuhiro Otomo studied western art, draw noses that aren't just a dot and he still has "that japanese thing" in his artwork.

[Anonymous No.3301411]

>>3301387
but Katsuhiro Otomo doesn't draw anime.

[Anonymous No.3301424]

>>3288414
because they have chowmeinchickadoo eyes

life is like anime to them they are drawing from life

[Anonymous No.3301433]

>>3291108
>Japan simply has a richer culture and a deep connection with nature. Long isolation on an island with shinto, buddhism, etc produced a fascination for beauty and ideas that isn't generally communicable to western minds that come from a history of constant war and shifting religions.
i can assure you that japan's culture isn't any richer than any other country that's been around a while

[Anonymous No.3301511]

>>3301372
Noses drawn by filthy ugly Westerners:
https://pre00.deviantart.net/d982/th/pre/i/2016/260/a/c/tracer_by_newmilky-dahxjfy.jpg

https://pre00.deviantart.net/4cf5/th/pre/f/2015/303/2/6/john_wick_sketch_by_max_dunbar-d9eye6f.jpg

https://pre00.deviantart.net/a83b/th/pre/f/2017/128/e/b/mermaid2017_by_waldemar_kazak-db8k6bf.jpg

[Anonymous No.3301560]

>>3300968
You dont know what symbolism or Realism is.

[Anonymous No.3301591]

>>3300948
A shitload of detail and use of 3D forms isn’t “realism” guy

They are both really stylized works that are closer to realism than average but not too much

[Anonymous No.3301604]

>>3290891
That's just the past, where out-of-touch middle-aged artists that rarely ever get exposed to anime, tries to draw anime.

Back then anime are very inaccessible and exposure outside of Japan is very limited.

But these days, especially with legal streaming services and the abundance of art sites, people got a lot better at it. Non-japanese artists being good at drawing anime isn't a rarity anymore.

[Anonymous No.3301715]

>>3288414
As someone who lurks Japanese art circles I can tell you that they draw differently comparative to western artists.

Even the artists that are just starting out and have no knowledge of fundies draw differently than their western counterparts. I think it's culture more than anything else. It's something you have to grow up in. That being said, I don't think it's 100% impossible to try to emulate them and succeed..

[Anonymous No.3301836]

>>3301387
so did miyazaki. and the pic in that post was drawn by a guy who worked together with akihiko yoshida on final fantasy.

every jp artist who went to university was taught classical western art.

[Anonymous No.3301857]

can somebody translate

https://www.pixiv.net/member.php?id=5808277

[>>3288414 No.3301874]

I pulled up the following google searches for "workspace" translated across various languages

they all echo this whiteboard room thing... except german...

[Anonymous No.3301880]

>>3292720
Japanese cartoons are trash. Ive really tried. I cant see the appeal. Its cringey and it all looks the same. There i said it.

[Anonymous No.3301889]

>>3301880

ttooddaayy wwaass wweeiirrrdd bbuuttt iiiittss aallrriigghhtt nnooww

[Anonymous No.3301894]

>>3301880
I respect your opinion good sir

[Anonymous No.3301910]

Jap here.
In addition to heavier emphasis on line work and composition, much of anime style art is to capture an exaggerated but relatable feel. Also, our mental libraries of images differ from those of the West. Our art and architecture is based on the silver ratio for aesthetic appreciation. Our food tastes are different, which I think extends to our art. Aesthetics are like plain mochi. Softer things are more appreciated, and making separations is discouraged. A form has to be composed to itself, each part depending on each other to make it so. However, this form tries its hardest to be distinct from its surroundings. Sorry if this doesn’t make sense. I can try to provide examples, but I’m on mobile as of the moment.

[Anonymous No.3301913]

>>3301880
what's good shit for you anon?

[Anonymous No.3301919]

>>3301910
The silver ratio

[Anonymous No.3301926]

>>3301910
As a fellow asian, I get what you're trying to say. The taste of eastern people differs mainly because of their different cultures

[Anonymous No.3301932]

>>3301926
You’re right. But, a westerner can draw easterner art by following the silver ratio. Japanese aesthetic is based on a simple pair of numbers, 1:1.414...You don’t need to be Japanese to draw Japanese art. In the following link a the author explains why the Japanese like this ratio, which predates the introduction of the European golden ratio.
http://amuta.jp/asarticles/silver.html

[Anonymous No.3302044]

>>3301874
try looking up Arbeitsplatz

[Anonymous No.3302231]

>3301175
Wouldn't Chad be the one on the left?

[Anonymous No.3302234]

>>3301880
Watch Ghost in the Shell. They say it's the anime for people who hate anime.

[Anonymous No.3302739]

>>3301932
retarded pseudoscience

[Anonymous No.3302872]

>>3301857
>https://www.pixiv.net/member.php?id=5808277
It's literall stuff from manga studio you could figure out by just dicking around.

[Anonymous No.3302878]

>>3301932
>>3301919
>tfw brainlet

[Anonymous No.3302917]

You only see good artists. Same can be said for any area of the world if you cherry pick hard enough.

What you're looking for is line weight. Line can imitate depth and form. Line art can also provide shadows and depth without the need of shading and rendering. This is vital for understanding how "Japanese" artists "do it".
But also being able to understand where to retract detail for the sake of the appeal of the artwork, and where to focus it. Put more detail in clothing or armor, less in the face. More shading in the background and less in the character. This is not "bad art", this is just applied understanding on how to make art appealing.
There is a lot of importance of knowing where to put straight or strong edges, balanced with curved or soft edges. Balance squares and circles in your art.

Because of their influences around them, many artists in Japan can understand this better than an untrained western artist. There is nothing wrong with learning.

[Anonymous No.3302985]

>>3302739
No it's not.
>>3302878
???

[Anonymous No.3303843]

>>3301910
Are you actually a jap or are you an american that happened to get to the ratio quiz from Persona 5?

[Anonymous No.3303864]

>>3303843
I’m Japanese. I’ve never played Persona. The silver ratio (白銀比, hakuginhi) is the first thing you learn in analyzing Japanese art and architecture.

[Anonymous No.3303876]

>>3303864
>I’m Japanese.

Could you translate pic related for me?

[Anonymous No.3303922]

The only western artists I can think that can do a great "eastern" anime style are Kuavera (hispanic), Weee and her sister GeB (I think they are American? or Canadian?)

I don't know of Hews and RatedKatchen count since they are both Pinoys.

[Anonymous No.3303979]

>>3303876
I feel /ic/ should have a translation general or something for japanese tutorials. The translators can put on tripcodes and so on. What do you anons think?

[Anonymous No.3303987]

>>3303979
>unpaid work

Fuck off and learn the language.

[Anonymous No.3304003]

>>3303876
The image is self explanatory, anon.

[Anonymous No.3304006]

>copying degenerate art style

[Anonymous No.3304029]

[Anonymous No.3304048]

>>3303876
Rough translation by phrase:
(This is an example) when thinking about the 3-D shape of the eye,
With respect to the green 立体線を基準 (reference line of solidity),
There is the action of envisioning the yellow/red contours and cyan/pink chiseling of the eybrows.

More simply put:
When thinking about the 3-d attributes of an anime eye, consider where the bone ridge under the eye pops out (orange/red)and where the upper eyelid sinks in (cyan/pink) with respect to the line that establishes the head's orientation.

立体感 rittaikan, quality of being 3d
立体線 rittaisen, line referencing the plane on which a 3D object rests, represented in green
輪郭 rinkaku, contour, indicator of elevation, represented in hot colors
彫り, chiseling, sinking in, represented in aesthetic colors

[Anonymous No.3304073]

>>3303987
Isn’t that what drawtgreads are?

[Anonymous No.3304398]

>>3303922
They're Asian American. Though I don't think the genetics are important, it's the cultural attitude towards, and immersion in anime aesthetic.

[Anonymous No.3304437]

>>3303987
This. Especially when you're like me (not Asian to begin with, work alone instead of on a team, etc.)

I've kept my rates pretty cheap though, because of competition.

I don't think people get just how hard it is to translate Japanese to English sometimes. Even if you know the language to some extent, choosing the right words for the translation can take a lot longer than you'd expect. There's truly an art to it -- not just a science.

I don't work for free unless the source is 1) something that interests me personally, and 2) It can be done within a reasonably short amount of time, considering it's unpaid work.

So yeah, I'm not above helping people out sometimes. I get experience, if nothing else.

[Anonymous No.3304647]

>>3304048
God bless your soul anon

[Anonymous No.3304750]

>tfw japanese
>can draw anime since birth because japan blood

feels good man

[Anonymous No.3304761]

>>3304647
No problem anon :).
Is there anything else?

[Anonymous No.3305018]

>>3304750
>he has a tiny 5.5 inch sissy dick

[Anonymous No.3305025]

>>3304750

>tfw came from third world
>tfw have no drawing experience
>tfw started drawing late
>tfw can draw anime ezpz
>tfw can draw in tons of styles
>tfw have artist genes

[Anonymous No.3305029]

Art classes in grade school have been defunded and pretty much phased out. You have art specific high schools kids can get into but only for the privileged. On the flip side the Japanese can join an art club and draw together, share ideas, tips whatever after school. And knowing how hard the industry is over there they take it very seriously at a young age. Then you have literal colleges that teach the craft of drawing anime. It's not some hidden leaf village genes passed down in the blood line.

They've adopted a in house style borrowed from the west and improved on it and it's as simple as that. Westerners can't into anime style simply because there is no education here that focuses on it. So their anime looks "too western".

Then they're literally surrounded with the manga shit everywhere if in the metropolitan areas, and their excelled artists share their tips in "tutorial" books. All of this is an advantage in mastering the style.

In short, don't even try unless you know the language.

[Anonymous No.3305033]

>>3305029
and have $$$ to study abroad

[Anonymous No.3305177]

>>3304750
post work or bullshit.

[Anonymous No.3305193]

>>3300860
True, noses in anime style are so different from western style even the kind of "tumblr" art that you see emphasizes the nose a lot, often making the nose tip red for whatever reason.

In anime style art its the exact opposite the nose practically recedes, but you can still identify its shape and position, and all in just a few lines or a simple dot.

[Anonymous No.3305194]

>>3292738
That's pretty good.

[Anonymous No.3305195]

>>3305193

[Anonymous No.3305200]

>>3305195

[Anonymous No.3305202]

>>3305200

[Anonymous No.3305242]

>>3305025
nice to see a fellow third world-er with artist genes

[Anonymous No.3305980]

>>3288414
Ok, so we know what separates japanese artstyle from western artstyle, but what seperates korean and chinese artstyles from japanese artstyle?

[Anonymous No.3306079]

>>3305980
>Ok, so we know
No we fucking don't

[Anonymous No.3306244]

>>3306079
shut up nerd

[Anonymous No.3306273]

>>3305980
There's no difference. Korea was once Japan so it's the same. China copies everything so it's the same.

[Anonymous No.3306948]

>>3290527

Spend about a week on 2ch art board.

Westaboos exist.

[Anonymous No.3307018]

All you double-niggers need to open up a pixiv account immediately. You don't need to know jap. You don't even need to know how exactly to navigate the site. Just go there, open an account, pay if you want a few extra features, and start browsing new posts.

You'll clearly see that there are just as many bad and mediocre artsts on the other side of the Pacific as there are in the states (or in Euroland, whatever)

The difference between you and them? You get caught up in your genetic lottery, begging for people to feel sorry for you because you can't channel kawaii, but they keep trying. Here's a tip: inside of focusing on something that is beyond your control, why don't you practice some god damn initiative and try to actually emulate or study some of the good shit that appeals to your taste?

There's even Jap artists that are desperately trying to achieve the "Disney aesthetic" and some of them are failing miserably. Their excuse? "Baaah I wasn't born in the US. Woe is me, my English studies are terrible." Tough tits for them.

So tell me, what's your excuse for drawing? Not enough time because you work or study too much? Bullshit, fuck you, find a drawing pad small enough to fit in a bag and draw on your lunches and break. Your hand hurts? Bullshit, fuck you, if it still functions, it can still draw. Your tired all the time? Bullshit, fuck you, you can sacrifice 20 minutes, even if it's near midnight, to put something on paper for the day, even if it's shit. You're not confident in your ability? Bullshit, fuck you, do something you are confident in, find a mistake you consistently fuck up, and tackle it without being a fuckboy about it.

Everywhere you look, in every country, there are shitters. You won't see them because you only see the mundane, trifled lives of the people that live closest to you. What separates a whiny cunt from someone who actually tries is initiative. All "it" is is the patient persistence of someone yearning to improve and not giving up.

[Anonymous No.3307039]

>>3307018
And yet those shit artists still make appealing works. Meanwhile /ic/ artists are hung up on fundies to the point where they make lose, unfinished sketches while pretending to be important figures on the board. Everything on this image up at the top is better than 50% of /alt/ and 110% better than whats on the bottom.

[Anonymous No.3307087]

>>3307039

Here's your one and only (You)

[Anonymous No.3307090]

>>3307039
how does one man become so wrong

[Anonymous No.3307096]

>>3307090
mad because I'm right

[Anonymous No.3307102]

>>3307096
laughable
shameful
pathetic

[Anonymous No.3307105]

>>3307102

mad
because
right

[Anonymous No.3307200]

Why do people keep talking about how japs also have bad art when that has nothing to do with what the OP is talking about?

He's saying something about it makes it different. You can almost always tell when something is drawn by a Japanese artist rather than a western artist, even in bad art. Skill has absolutely nothing to do with it. It doesn't matter how skilled that western artist, with a few exceptions, they can't recreate the anime aesthetic in a way that you can't tell they're western.

[Anonymous No.3307426]

>>3307090
>>3307087
he's right you know